Teds thoughts with David Roberts of CMS

We sit down with CMS partner David Roberts to trace his accidental route into hospitality and the deal-making that shaped modern UK restaurant growth. We dig into how founders raise capital without losing control, why some private equity structures now punish management teams, and what trends are actually worth watching. 
• moving from Sydney law into London hotel M&A and restaurant work 
• why hospitality careers often start by accident and then become addictive 
• building a hospitality-led legal practice through relationships and trust 
• the founder boot camp model and what early-stage groups need to learn 
• backing Blacklock and copying great culture from Hawksmoor 
• growing restaurant groups from cashflow and avoiding early dilution 
• how long holding periods and loan notes wipe out management equity 
• why the UK needs real consolidation vehicles for mature groups 
• UK margin pressure pushing brands towards licensing, franchising, and overseas growth 
• categories getting attention now including coffee, bakeries, food-led pubs, and live music 
If you care about the sector, the people in it, and where it's heading, subscribe and join the conversation. 

Transcript

Why These Hospitality Stories Matter

SPEAKER_01 0:00

Hi, I'm Ted Sharma, the founder of One Voice Hospitality. I spent over three decades in hospitality, but what's always mattered most to me are the people and the characters behind the business. Hospitality is built on conversation, trust, and relationships. And One Voice Hospitality exists to bring these conversations together across the industry. There are big wins, real struggles, and a lot that doesn't get said out loud. I want to share these stories with you. Over the series, I'll be talking some of the industry's leading figures. By the way, that's where I point to my guests and snigger a little bit. Uh hearing how they've built, adapted, raised capital, told their stories, and navigated change. If you care about the sector, the people in it, and where it's heading, subscribe and join the conversation. Well, today I'm in a very, very glamorous office. It's still the Tube Strike, although I will be releasing this after the Tube Strike. And I've been lucky enough to be joined by David Roberts, a CMS, one of the largest legal firms in the world. Welcome, David. Thanks, Ted. Nice to be here. Great to be here. And I'm really happy that you've agreed to join us because your wealth of expertise across the corporate world, both legally, mergers and acquisitions, is unquestionable. And you know, you've delved into other sides that I'm sure will come into that at some point soon. But let's start where we always start, which is why what what brought you to hospitality?

From Hotel Deals To Restaurant Growth

Boot Camp Advice For Founders

SPEAKER_00 1:46

That's a good question. Um well I grew up in Sydney, as my accent may give away. Um, and when I was at university, uh my brother got a job at uh at a local pizza restaurant at Pizza Hut. And so uh he was quite a charismatic person, and all of his friends joined the same Pizza Hut, and then uh I joined with a whole bunch of my friends, and it became a huge social hub for us during the five years of university in Sydney. So I I was never I I was never um uh recruited to do anything front of house, so I was always at the back uh washing up the pans or making the pizzas, but I did have a yearning to be front of house at some point in my life. Um and so uh when I um but I obviously finished my law degree and hospitality wasn't really on my on my radar. I'd done a lot of uh corporate acquisitions and I started to do a lot of sports and entertainment law as well when I was in Sydney. And then I was minding my business one day in 1998 when the phone rang, and uh a legal headhunter had indicated there were um a number of large corporate law firms in London recruiting out of Sydney, and um, would I be interested in going to the UK? Um, and at that time, that was in 1998, and the rugby and the cricket world cup were on in 99 in England, and I thought this is fantastic, this is too good to be true. So I um I was offered a couple of different jobs and took one at uh Hogan Lovell's, which has just announced the biggest law firm um merger in in the history of of the of the of the legal businesses. So that's that's where I landed in in London and automatically fell into a a large MA practice which was doing a lot of work in the hotel sector. So I acquired um a number of big portfolios of hotels, which all had restaurant and FB offerings. Um, and then 2001, 2002 came about, and that the American owners decided to sell them all. So with that then I went on disposing all of these large groups of hotels, things like you know, Hotel Divan and um Malmaison, etc., all of these large portfolios. Um, and when by the time I I decided to um become a partner, I moved across to Oldswang and um which was a Darling sort of media boutique law firm, which which was the coolest, coolest kid in town. And I thought I'd be really that that would suit me down to the ground. Um, but every idea I had was met with um, you know, that's a problem, or we've tried that before, or you know, we have a conflict with that person. So I decided to do to just move away from tech and media and entertainment and go back to hotels and and F and B. And that really coincided in 2006 with um one of the firm's clients, Richard Caring. So Richard Kering started acquiring assets in the space. You know, he bought Wentworth Golf Club, then he bought Strata and Belgos and Bills and so forth. And so the firm started to build this hospitality-led practice. And then I started working for D D with Des Gunwagner and Sir Terrence Conran. Um, started, met Paul Campbell at a conference, and started, and then met the Hawkesmore guys, started working for them, and so did, and and private equity had started by that stage of the of the cycle, private equity had really discovered restaurants are a thing. And so we sold a controlling stake in Hawkesmore to Graphite, the same thing to LDC and in DD. And then I found myself really at the forefront of of what private equity has since you know done in inverted commerce, you know, with the with the restaurant sector in particular. So, like many things in life, Ted, it was an accident. Um, but I was a happy participant in that whole process. And I think when when I realized, when I started working with you know Paul Campbell and Human Will and Des and Sir Terence, etc., I realized that they were fabulous people, that the sector was really tight, that it was filled with wonderful, hospitable, um, conversant, sharing people. And um so I guess as a result, I started devoting more and more of my time into the space. And I at that point I started a thing called, which we now call the boot camp, which was a way that we uh every year we we invite um the founders from early stage restaurant groups in to talk about business and to talk about how to raise capital and how to roll out and and make life-changing amounts of money and how to deal with growing and how to deal with selling. Um, and the first one we did was in 2007, and I think Dishume was was there, they had one restaurant, Honisburg had two restaurants, Caravan, I think was a business plan at that stage. And over the years, we've always sought to open our doors and give our experience to the founder community, and and as a result, as these businesses have grown and grown, you know, it it leads to really lovely outcomes. For example, we were we were able to um we were able to uh work with Dishume again last year after being with them in the in our boot camp 15 years later to sort of take them to market. So it's be it's really really been a lovely journey. I hate that word, but it's been a really lovely experience. And I know one of my partners, Nick Crosby, his his business plan when he was going to be made a partner was to was to act for Dishume, and it was really lovely for him a decade later to work on that transaction with me last year and and actually take them to market. So um, in answer to your question, uh it's been a a sort of a an accidental but slightly slightly deliberate um journey in in a sense that I I always was as a as an employee I loved working with people and I loved working in the hospitality space. And so but I've never had a chance to be um front of house. And I often say to Gordon Kerr at Blacklock, um, when do I get a chance to sort of have my day on, you know, have a shift and be out be out you know out out in front. And he uh he always says that day will come, of course, but he he won't let me anywhere near a paying customer. Can we do it together?

SPEAKER_01 8:11

That would be fun. That would be brilliant. Let's absolutely do that. Then we must follow up on this, particularly though, it's it's on record now. Yeah, of course. Um unintended consequences, the cricket and the football, sorry, cricket and the rugby um brought you to London. That's that's um I'm not sure what was unintended after that. Perhaps the hospitality piece sounds like, but it is addictive and it's strange. The more more and more people I talk to, the more I find that it almost is accidental. With s I would say with more people than not, unless you're a real kind of chef by nature, um, which of course is is a different journey altogether or or similar, but but yeah, it it it's it's quite it's quite curious to to hear these stories.

Backing Blacklock From Day One

SPEAKER_00 8:56

Well it's lovely, isn't it? Because there's no immediate barriers to entry. It's like writing a book. I think everyone no one can stop you writing a book, and no one can really stop you from opening a restaurant as well. Uh I think everyone's got one book in them, and I think everyone's probably got one restaurant in them as well. That the skill is to is to open a you know a um a successful restaurant, and the real skill is to understand the business model about how to roll out um restaurants in a way which which it will be attractive to to you know investors and to make you know a life-changing amount of money in the process. And a lot of only a very small percentage of of the founders that I start working with are even aware that that's that's a thing. Certainly most of them aren't aware of how to do it and and also what the sort of key metrics that a business needs to follow in order to s satisfy what what investors and owners and purchasers are looking for. But that's really that's really the part of the struggle's not the right word, but that's really part of the the joy of of evolving a restaurant concept in particular or a bar concept, um, is learning learning how to make it successful and learning the skills to the operational skills to to make changes to the business so that you can capture and and perform to the level that you need to in order to make it a financial success. You touched upon Gordon.

SPEAKER_01 10:24

There's obviously a much bigger story there. There is. There is Segway.

SPEAKER_00 10:32

Well Gord Gordon Kerr was one of the brightest and most commercially um alive uh young lawyers I'd ever I'd ever worked with, you know. And I think I'd probably been a lawyer for 20 years at that stage, and he just stood out as being someone who was who was exceptional. Um and after we'd done the Hawkesmore and DD transaction, and we'd we'd done several other ones as well. He'd done he'd worked for Bills and for Cote, etc., on those transactions as well. Uh we he he turned to me and said, I you know, I want to I want to leave and I want to set up a restaurant, my own restaurant business. And I said, Well, who's gonna fund it? And he said, Well, I don't know, well, let's work it out. And I said, Okay, I'll I'll fund it. Um and so so black, the the concept of a black lock um was germinating at that point. And we I remember going to the the the um completion dinner we had for Hawksmore and and Gordon was telling Will um Will Will Beckett about this idea, and he sort of burst out laughing and said, We can't have our both of our lawyers go you know into bankruptcy, so we'll we'll give you a hand. So it was interesting. The black Blacklock uh always had a bit of Hawkesmoor DNA in it. Um so they were kind enough to let Gordon work in Hawkesmoor for a while. He did their management program, he worked on the opening of Knightsbridge. Um, and so when when we finally um found our first Blacklock site, Will and some of the other Hawkesmoor guys were, you know, were shareholders in the business. And um uh but but uh a lot of the sort of culture and the the wonderful culture that they had built at Hawkesmoor had had been picked up by Gordon. And so we were able to build Blacklock um using a lot of the of the best practice that that he picked up, you know, working with I think one of the best cultural businesses in the country.

SPEAKER_01 12:33

So it's fantastic because you're at the coal face um of that business. So you really get to, as an advisor, understand the challenges first hand. And it's got to be a good place to be able to advise others where you're seeing success or where you are seeing uh learnings.

Growing On Cash Without Dilution

SPEAKER_00 12:54

Yeah, no, that's it, that's exactly right. And it's very privileged, I guess, to um to be in that position. But you know, if you if you work with uh Black Lux interesting in that we raised capital to begin with, we we haven't raised capital since. So the original capital built the first restaurant, the the cash proceeds built the second, and the cash proceeds from the second first and second built the third, etc. Um, when we did a transaction with BGF, they didn't we didn't need any more money. So we we sold some some capital to some shares to them, but we didn't need any more money. So being able to grow a business quickly out of its own cash resources is a really, really good example of how I think you should do it. If you take your growth capital too early, what I think you find the risk is as a founder, you get diluted out of out of sometimes out of existence. Uh, but you can get heavily diluted and you can be exposed to you know quite um aggressive financial instruments which again eat into management equity. Um and and the problem has been that that's fine if you if the holding time for an investment is sort of three to five years, which was always the case. But because of COVID, um the holding times of uh private equity in the hospitality sector has now there's now more than 50 PE investments in hospitality that have been in there for more than 10 years. So those loan notes with you know 12% coupons multiplying year on year are just eating away on on all management value. And so that there's now a big a big challenge for the sector is how are we going to process these these these concept these these businesses that are effectively um not there's no management equity value left in them. And so there needs to be a you know either a a big acquisition spree or some r reconstruction, some r um uh processes and um uh some um consolidation required. And I I can I've got uh sort of a big picture idea about how to fix it all, but um we'll have to save that for part two.

SPEAKER_01 15:04

Oh, I'm looking forward to it. Well I always like the uh post-briefing when I turn a microphone off. I should have I should really have a third microphone that I have in my pocket that I should keep on for afterwards. But um I'm mentioning that for a reason because it's very fresh in my mind uh where I was talking to Luke Johnson, where after the event um we were talking about um winners and losers uh or or or during the conversation, um, but what came out of it afterwards was you know, within those times where the expectation was a three to five year uh exit, um, that was in a land where almost everybody could win to some extent. I'm not talking about an exit necessarily at all. I'm just saying that that we were living in a time where if you're a mummas and papa, or you're a small group, or a big group, or a you know, high-end, low end, middle, there was kind of room for everyone and everything was manageable. Um, of course, there were always losers, but um Luke mentioned a uh a book um to me after the conversation, which was Winner Takes It All Economy. And it kind of feels as though we're in uh that type of environment today. Does that sound true to you?

When Private Equity Holding Periods Break

SPEAKER_00 16:25

Yeah, I think I think the elements of of that are are true. And I'd be I'd be brave to disagree with with Luke on on this sort of topic because he's seen seen it from both sides as well. But I think one of the one of the private equity was built in those timelines. I mean, for the private equity in you know executives to make the money that they need, they they require return on capital to their you know limited partners within that period as well. So no no one's winning if if if things get stuck in the pipeline. And the consequence of the the way that the the private equity structure their investments is that the longer that you hold you know they're in in your capital structure, the more costly it is for everybody else. And it was never intended to last this long. And so as as a result, you know, the the complete obliteration of management equity is a disaster for any business. You cannot be running a 30 unit restaurant group where the management team are required to work uh you know seven days a week and give the and be as devoted as you are required to from an operational perspective, if in the outcome, in the event that there is a sale, that they'll get nothing. Because you you have to have you have there has to have there has to be an incentive um for the management to to give what um what's required in order for for the investors to to make to you know sort of achieve an outcome. And so at the moment we are resetting a lot of these lot of these structures. You know, we're we're turning off the interest rates, we're capitalizing loan notes, and some of the transactions that we're doing now, the loan notes that that might have been worth five million have ballooned to 35 to 50 million are being are being written off for a pound. Because that's not that it's it's it's fictitious value. You know, it's it's a is it's value in name only. Um and so uh that that that system you know is is being shown to only work in the sh in a short in a short period of time. So some of the returns, when when when coat was bought, rolled out, and then sold and rolled out again, that that was a fantastic example of when it works. But um I think the experience in with private equity in restaurants here is that you don't want to be the last person holding the baby in the bath water because um I I think in in the past you know you could there was a sort of a super oxygenated environment where you could grow restaurants to 400, 500. Um, you know, Pretzo and Um Pizza Express, you know, reached these enormous positions and they had amazing high street presence. Um but then on the back of the EIS you know tax regime, which allowed an explosion of young, exciting restaurants to um to come to come to market, and on the back of private equity getting involved, these these businesses just became too big, and they've they've become they became too big to succeed. Because you can't no no one could could take a 500 group restaurant business in the UK and turn it into a thousand and sell it again. Now that might be possible in the US through their franchising system, but it's not possible here. So there's been a big sort of um uh re reassessment, I think, of what of where you want to invest in the UK investment in the UK restaurant market and when you want to get out. And and that's much more earlier, much smaller groups, uh, and you need to leave a huge runway for someone to to then take it forward. And and what we lack, and what we've always lacked, is a consolidating vehicle. So someone someone who would take these restaurants when they got to 20 to 30 and give them a give them a proper home on a yield, on a yield sort of basis. So that you didn't you didn't need to you if if they reached a level of maturity that they were just generating you know five, six, ten million of eBay DAR a year, that's a lovely business. And but there's no one in the UK market that's worked out that you should just that there needs to be someone who can sit there with a central overhead that can service you know a whole hub and spoke of of restaurant groups, provide central services, provide um, you know, uh group supply chain savings and synergies, and just build a lovely mature business.

SPEAKER_01 20:44

Is that similar to what uh Robin Rowland's done with the tri span collection of businesses?

Loan Notes Reset And A Need To Consolidate

SPEAKER_00 20:50

I think that that's what Robin Robin was I think that was he was heading down that route. I think someone like Living Ventures had started going down that route as well, Azuri as well, also going down that route. But I mean it it I think I think it would be nice to have a c a couple of listed consolidators who who could actually who could actually have the firepower to do that. Um but but certainly the thesis is being tested. Um I think that the tri span one we'll we'll wait and see. Um there's some challenges there, I think. Um yeah, but I I do think that that is a perfectly legitimate um business model that hasn't been fully explored.

SPEAKER_01 21:33

You mentioned the dilution of loan notes.

SPEAKER_00 21:36

Is that the Dave Roberts magic wand, or what is that the kind of I think it's just getting rid of loan notes is is just like having a having a a cup of coffee in the morning and smelling the roses. I mean the the the reality is that at any certain points in a conversation you have to look the other side in the eye or the investors in the eye and say, you and I both know that these are worth nothing. You and I both know that the that the that that these these you know th these instruments are causing a huge amount of uh concern and angst for the management team and it's value destructive um for the business and so i in the end um it's quite an easy b because the the reality is Ted that that most of the investors will have written them off internally not externally but internally the years before because they realise there's no value in them. But they'd still be receiving interest on those loans. M most of the loan interest tends to get um rolled over and then turned into pick notes and then it just consolidates that's why you're getting this sort of ballooning effect. It's a bit like s if if any of the listeners have student loans they would they may may be arguing that that's a similar sort of mechanic um in relation to those sorts of loans. But yeah the it's it's a it's a loan without value if that makes sense.

UK Pressure Pushes Brands Overseas

SPEAKER_01 22:54

Right got you what are you seeing in in the economy or in well the economy is probably too broad a word but what's exciting you at the moment?

SPEAKER_00 23:04

Well I you know I think before before um before the Middle East situation occurred I I had seen at the start of this 2026 um on the on the back of uh s some really exciting MA transactions including things like Dishume and BAO and um MWET and Viraswamy etc there was quite a lot of um hope going into 2026 and I think a lot of our clients to be honest were a bit over what's happening in the UK a lot of them had said well we don't feel like the this government is is supportive of business particularly our our business and there's there's you know ample evidence to suggest that's the case um I and others have been you know quite quite active on LinkedIn to point this out and it doesn't feel like um and UK hospitality is working hard to to make make a case as well um but as a result uh a lot of our clients have decided well we just it's too difficult to grow here it's too costly to grow here and the costs and and and the and the mark the cr the sort of pressure on margin is so high in the UK because of all the additional costs we're going to look elsewhere and we're gonna use different business models and we're gonna start licensing our IP we're gonna start franchising our businesses we're gonna take a a risk sort of a a a lower risk but lower reward um uh approach and so we were prior to the um to the Middle East situation we had started I think five different joint joint venture uh arrangements in in Qatar in the Middle East in Saudi Arabia uh and and also in the US where clients are saying well forget about the UK for the until we get a change of government frankly they're not listening so we're just gonna go somewhere else and try and try and not lose money and try and make money um in a different in a different environment and I think it's been really good for the sector because for a long time in fact almost for always the the UK restaurant sector has been quite inward looking it it hasn't really reached out. Pret is a good example of something that has has done that um but but I'll tell there's very few examples of of anyone that's gone abroad successfully and said um let's take what we've done in the UK and and and and take it to the world. Jamie's Italian did a bit of it um and we and you've seen little bits and pieces uh in the Middle East for um but but not to an extent that you you know that it's been and sorry and typically private equity were unhappy with with and felt it was too risky um that you're you you know you're growing in a in a territory where you're where you have no experience you make bad property decisions there's tax risk there's litigation risk in going to the US let's just let's just do what we know and grow in the UK but with clients like Hawkesmore for example was was an early adopter of going to the US and we've seen you know folks like um uh JKS and Dishume and Watchhouse all moving to the US now um our competitive socializing client base including state of play and um who have the flight club franchise all moving to the US doing well plays as well um fair game so so that I think I think what's happening here in the UK has forced that's the great thing about the sector as you know is they're so innovative and flexible um this had to happen like the margin squeezes sort of push them out of the UK into explore other territories I think that's going to be really really a pivotal moment for the sector as as we sort of discover what's happening in in other jurisdictions and similarly um I I think that the fueling that the EIS tax regime has has allowed um restaurant restaurants to to um grow in the UK has been has been largely successful in driving a whole bunch of wonderful different cuisine types and categories into into the UK and when you if you I go trekking every year in the Alps and when you go to the French Alps every restaurant is this it's the same food it's the same menu you could change the name of the restaurant but and the same with other parts of Europe I won't I won't create create a um a European war but um when you come when I sometimes after a week in France I just can't wait to get back to London to to just try you know the Thai or the curry or the or some Malaysian cuisine or some pan um some Peruvian cuisine or chukus you know Nigerian tapas like it's led to a massive explosion of taste and and variety and and I think this is actually going to become something which London's now a global food capital without doubt and we the next I think the next stage we're going to see is we're gonna start exporting in the same way that we exported the Premier League and and um and the Commonwealth all over the world I I can see London cuisine becoming something that the the rest of the world wants to embrace and and I think they're starting to see that now.

SPEAKER_01 28:16

I've always thought for a long time that Europe is ripe.

Europe Expansion Barriers And First Movers

SPEAKER_00 28:19

I remember when Marcel took um five guys over there you know it's kind of you just you kind of think on the one hand you think oh my goodness five guys on a Shamsalise I I don't know how well that's going to go down uh likewise you know in Mart Bear or here there and everywhere and and yet um there is appetite um and and like you where where I go across Europe um there is this um I think you put it very well where all the menus are are pretty much the same and and I see that all too often so uh certainly as Europe as a as a territory feels like I mean obviously there's lots of different nuances in every different country that needs to be tackled but I think there must be a lot of growth there and I also think that I think that as as challenging as the Middle East situation is at this moment I think it's shone shone or will shine the spotlight on the likes back on Vegas and places like this where I think perhaps it lost a little bit of its sparkle um relative to Dubai perhaps I d I don't know it might be controversial uh it might not be but I just think that you know there are plenty of these really exciting places to go to as JKS has recently uh as recently action yeah I I do I and I think they're they're um JKS is a really good example of you know of doing uh New York and and Vegas literally in the same week um it's very hard to get hold of Joe because he's always he's always always on a plane um but there's no there's no reason why why I mean I I think to to move successfully abroad you you have to probably have a spend per head of around 60 to 70 plus because because I don't think because the US for example is so so um competitive at a casual dining level like they do that very well uh that valued part of the part of the menu part of the market is is hugely satisfied and the QSR is it was invented there and they they do it with their eyes closed but I think if you can take something that's that's sophisticated uh with a higher span per head average into into those into those markets we we think you know something like Baronjack is fabulous but but in other jurisdictions in gateway cities around the world it is unique it is something amazing it it's a taste a sort of juxtaposition of taste that that I've never even thought about and so I think I think we don't I don't think we really appreciate how wonderful the food scene is here and it's only when yeah you know um people come to the UK and taste this food and think my God and it's so often clients will say this guy just rang me and said he you know he's from Iceland and he wants to he wants to take our restaurant back. Is that a good idea that happens all the time so so I think um I I'm I'm really I'm really I keep going back to the EIS tax regime but it's it's it's allowed it's created a sort of a petri dish which has led to an explosion of of of restaurants since sort of 2005 onwards which I think has has created this environment and I I do think the next phase will be we'll be taking these restaurants far and abroad um in and and you're right that what one of the reasons I always ask my you know queer queer why why haven't we done that into Europe? And I think the the legal system is is very employee friendly you know in the continental jurisdictions it's very impossible it's very difficult to to retrench staff it's very difficult to um in France in particular in Spain there's some unbelievably pro-employee legislation even more so than our new our new piece of legislation if you if you think that's possible um and I think language has always been an issue for the Brits as well we're not quite you know we everyone did year year out year you know GCSC French but no one's quite quite um quite confident enough to sort of go and open a business in France. But so so I but there's no particular I agree with you there's no reason why that you know this wonderful market that we've created here shouldn't work and and travel well across across Europe. I'm I I think it I think the language my my guess and this is anecdotal is just the language and the legal systems are a bit of a challenge. But if you speak to people like Alchemists if you speak to uh who are opening in you know operating in Berlin you know they they transact in English basically I I and I think some of our clients have opened in Amsterdam um uh Tortir is now acting in operating in France and they are sort of slowly um you know being um first getting first mover sort of experience so I think there's more of that down the track.

Coffee, Bakeries, Pubs, And Live Music

SPEAKER_01 33:11

I you you would imagine so and I some people have also said to me that you know although going to America they speak the same language it's not always the same language if if I've said that correctly but I think hopefully you know what I mean in that you know although the European countries have got different languages um it might not be that radically different in terms of culture legal systems are you know it it can I don't want to say fool's goal but there are barriers to entry wherever you go. True um whether or not they speak the same language but is there anything else that you're seeing that you'd like to share that excites you um at the moment any particular trends or brands that that you think are are worth keeping an eye on?

SPEAKER_00 33:58

I I think there's some there's I always like the up and comers I think that's a really lovely part of the world to to focus on um I I think bakery and coffee is a really interesting area at the moment we're seeing a lot of a lot of investment early stage and some really particularly in coffee things like Roslyn and Black Sheep and um uh you know are really are really growing substantially and and I think they're they're they're hedging their bets because as as your listeners will know it's difficult making money in if you're just selling coffee because there's a small it's a small purchase price it's a it's a you know a volatile commodity and and most of the money in a in a coffee shop is made through the food. And so Gales is is a really good example of someone who's built out the coffee offering caravan is another good example. Cornish bakery another fantastic example and you know you can see the growth of Cornish bakery regionally has been astounding over the last over the last three or four years in particular. So I I think that's a really and then there's a really lovely group of coffee shops and businesses that are growing in northern um England uh which is now starting to filter down pun intended uh in in into the UK it's sorry into into London as well so I I think that's a really an area really um uh of interest uh I think baking baking has become cool from a television perspective but also I think bakery shops are becoming far more um acceptable and and profit they're becoming more profitable and they're and and because they're able to they're much more they lend themselves to being um more suburban as opposed to high street businesses that you know you can have your your local with this in some in London for example there's a couple of fantastic bakeries that have opened up in Queen's Park um Don't Tell Dad is a really good example of of something that's artisan baking and people will cue um bread peddler is another really great example of it of a London bakery that opens opens they're a B2B business but on on Saturdays they open for the for the public um and there's cues around the block and they have been for years because their their sourdough is so so exceptional. So as you know in the in the way that Australians picked up coffee 25 years ago and took it to a to a fine level I think the UK is now embracing baker baking possibly on the back of some television shows that you may have may you may have watched but they're but they're the now people are becoming sourdough snobs in the way that people have become um coffee snobs in the past. So I think that's a really lovely area I think I I also think the other area that's quite cool at the moment quite hot is is people who are taking pubs and making them um people like I don't know um the Navy of clubs for example who who've taken a really a derelict eastern pub brought it back to life and then put a very super cool restaurant on top and I see I see a lot of those businesses coming through now so um Urban Pub Group is another good example and you can see lots of those. So I think there's a lot and I the thing I like about that business is or those businesses is there is a buyer for those as well. You should never start a business I say this at boot camp unless you know who's going to buy it. And I think there is there is these these artisan food led pub groups I think are are are are very timely and I think the ones who actually then bring music back on on top of that are going to are going to really reap the rewards because I get a I got a sneaking suspicion that our 21 year olds are going to discover music anytime sometime soon and are going to realise that dancing and music is is a great joy and it's a joy that we all had when we were their age and they need to learn how to have some joy in their life and I I think I think live music I've got a a c a couple of clients who've done a meanwhile site night nightclub in in um in um in Soho and it's packed to three in the morning and people are people are dancing again like who would have thought so um so I the other two areas at the moment which I'm seeing a lot of a lot of interest and investment as well.

Hospitality Means People

SPEAKER_01 38:13

Brilliant I um I hate being put on the spot when I'm asked about trends and stuff like that so I think you've totally and utterly nailed it um because I happen to be involved in in all of those categories at the moment and I'm excited about them as well. Yeah I think particularly on the the pub side you know I was not I'm not really a puppy uh by nature you know it's not one of my absolute kind of I'm not an expert on beers but you know we just we've we've done the Waterman arms and the Shaston arms and all of this kind of thing and you know it's it's exciting. It's really exciting. So um no uh those are fantastic observations and and I agree with you wholeheartedly and well done um for being so on point.

SPEAKER_00 38:56

So I'm just conscious of time really enjoyed it I need to ask you what does hospitality mean to you um I think it means I think it means people I think it i i if if you like people if you care about people if you're interested in people if you like serving people if you like making people happy then it's it's a sector for you. And I think that I think that works for for advisors as well as operators and financiers and so forth. You come into the orbit of hospital the hospitality sector and if and if you're wired properly for it you cannot leave it.

SPEAKER_01 39:44

Brilliant brilliant well thank you so much I've really enjoyed it you've you've offered something completely different and um I'm really grateful for your time. I hope I'm not paying by the hour by the way Bill's in the mail thank you David thanks then wonderful