In this week's episode, I get to interview an equine massage therapist Holly Hegeman, who is quite the expert at reading horses and their energy. She gives such insightful tips about horses, how she helps them release pain, and also how the shared energy has helped to heal her throughout the years. Hippotherapy is discussed for anyone looking to utilize horses as a modality to help regulate your nervous system and achieve calmness, peacefulness, and centering.
Holly Hegeman is the Owner of Elite Equine Massage Therapy WI & is a Full-time Large Animal Veterinary Technician: I have been involved with horses since I was a toddler doing lead-line classes in the Northern IL area in the beginning of the 1980’s. Early on, I decided to make a career out of buying/selling/training Sport Horses for English riding disciplines (think Dressage, Jumping and Eventing). After some life changes and discovering a passion for helping horses feel their very best, I made the decision to redirect my work towards Equine Sports Massage Therapy and Equine Veterinary Medicine as a technician well over 10 years ago. I studied in Virginia, Michigan, Illinois & Wisconsin taking courses in Equine Biomechanics and Equine Sports Massage Therapy with an emphasis on Kinesiology Taping for both the horse and the rider. I wanted to help horses to move their very best while being the most comfortable no matter the discipline, and to assist in the prevention and recovery from sport-related injuries thru Equine Sports Massage Therapy. I also integrate the use of lasers to help our Equine Partners to feel their best in helping to prevent injuries and to assist in healing post injury. I have traveled travel all over massaging horses. I must add that this career path has helped me to fulfill a sort of healing cycle I have with horses: they do so much for me in their simple way of “being,” that I had to find a way to connect and give back.
In this week's episode, I get to interview an equine massage therapist Holly Hegeman, who is quite the expert at reading horses and their energy. She gives such insightful tips about horses, how she helps them release pain, and also how the shared energy has helped to heal her throughout the years. Hippotherapy is discussed for anyone looking to utilize horses as a modality to help regulate your nervous system and achieve calmness, peacefulness, and centering.
Holly Hegeman is the Owner of Elite Equine Massage Therapy WI & is a Full-time Large Animal Veterinary Technician: I have been involved with horses since I was a toddler doing lead-line classes in the Northern IL area in the beginning of the 1980’s. Early on, I decided to make a career out of buying/selling/training Sport Horses for English riding disciplines (think Dressage, Jumping and Eventing). After some life changes and discovering a passion for helping horses feel their very best, I made the decision to redirect my work towards Equine Sports Massage Therapy and Equine Veterinary Medicine as a technician well over 10 years ago. I studied in Virginia, Michigan, Illinois & Wisconsin taking courses in Equine Biomechanics and Equine Sports Massage Therapy with an emphasis on Kinesiology Taping for both the horse and the rider. I wanted to help horses to move their very best while being the most comfortable no matter the discipline, and to assist in the prevention and recovery from sport-related injuries thru Equine Sports Massage Therapy. I also integrate the use of lasers to help our Equine Partners to feel their best in helping to prevent injuries and to assist in healing post injury. I have traveled travel all over massaging horses. I must add that this career path has helped me to fulfill a sort of healing cycle I have with horses: they do so much for me in their simple way of “being,” that I had to find a way to connect and give back.
Warning, listen to this podcast at your own risk. Side effects may include joy, feeling, content, illumination, newfound senses of purpose and wellbeing. Courage, realizing you are not alone.
Jennifer McNerney:
Welcome to the Ripple Effect. I am your host Jen McNerney, sharing the unfolding stories that made us and healed us.
Okay, today on the ripple effect. Podcast. I have a very special guest and she's a blast from my past. We went to high school together. We played soccer together, but I have Holly Hegeman here and she's the owner of elite equine massage therapy in Wisconsin. And she's a horse expert. In my opinion, she knows so much about horses. And the reason I wanted to have somebody like Holly are on to discuss horses is that. the reason for my podcast is to bring healing modalities to people that maybe they don't know what is out there. And I know that when I worked out at a ranch with the horses, with some kids labeled as neurodivergent autism, the horses just being in the presence regulated these children in a way that was so magical that I have been in awe of horses ever since. And so I would love to hear your journey with how. So you discovered, because I know I'm speaking to the choir here, like about how magical horses are. When did you discover your love for horses and then making a career path out of working with horses? And you're also a vet. You're a full time vet technician too, for large animals, correct? Yes, I am. Yeah. Yes. Awesome. Well, welcome. Yeah. So just kind of give us your background. So, I started with horses very young. My family had racehorses thoroughbreds and saddlebreds, which were show horses down in the Carolinas and up in the Arlington Heights area. They would go race at the Arlington Racetrack. So I grew up in that environment, just getting to know some of the horses, some of the babies, a lot of the foaling seasons, things like that were really fascinating to me, even as a toddler. And even from that age, I think you learn to connect with the horses. There's a kindness to them when it comes to little people, small children, I really believe that there's generally there's, you know, as long as everything's safe and everything else, but they can get close to you and You kind of emit this innocence of an energy as a child. And they feel that, and they return that, and they get a little safer, they move a little slower, a little bit more cautious, and allows for a connection to be made. And through my youth, I rode horses, English disciplines mainly, eventing, which is dressage, and show jumping, and jumping over fences, like out in the woods combined. and for me as a teenager, it was a good connection as well. I had my heart horse, meaning I had this horse that was risky, who is my absolute. You know, everything, I would tell him all my problems, you know, you know, and, from there I just decided it was something that I could do and do well and be successful at, and that I kind of had that feel for horses. So from there forwards, I dealt with, everything from importing horses to, and to the States from Ireland mainly. And then I would get them used to, you know, with their new digs with me and, sell them and do all the training as well. So, and those were horses. They were like sport horse, like horses that people would ride using English tech. Okay, cool. Yeah. There's sport horses mainly for fox hunting or, which now they do legal drags. They don't hunt actual foxes, but, anyway, fox hunting and, uh, so jumping mainly is the big thing. And, dressage too, which is kind of in the horse's dance under saddle. Yes. I, I, um, we had a volunteer at a, the equine center who was into that, and I, I was, yeah, I was floored watching some of the videos and how intense the training is. Um, yes. And how much you have to be one with the horse. Absolutely. Like any, any what wrong movements and you guys could all be crashing into each other or something. True. Yes. And any of the show type environments. And I grew up in pony club too, which was fun. And I learned a lot through the British horse society in the Northern Illinois area. Um, and it taught me a lot from the ground up with horses, which I think is very important. So when I went on to teach lessons in my twenties and thirties, I really taught from the ground up. I think, you know, a person should get to know the animal first, get to understand what's safe. Uh, how to move around them, how to let them move around you and form a connection with that animal before you start throwing a saddle on them and hopping on and going riding. Yeah. Yeah. So I, I will say that I'm not formally trained. I was providing speech therapy or, well, it was really the horse was, that's why I said they were the best coworkers ever because I didn't. do much. The horses would regulate the children enough that I could then access their speech and their language. And you know, it was just so easy. I think my magical story was there was an autistic, teenager. Nonverbal would do this high pitch humming, which humming will, regulate the Vegas nerve, which is all about that rest and digest. And, and I know there's some studies out there about horses having like five times the bio field that we do as humans. So just being, and I would wear my Watch and I would look at my heart rate variability because I'm all about a regulated nervous system. And on the days I was with the horses, my heart rate variability would be in the 300, 400, like, like so calm and just amazing where normally it would be like 50 to 80 for me on a regular day. But the days I was with the horses, my heart was just syncing up to. The cadence of the horse, which I know the Institute of Heart and Math has done a study on this in terms of how their field is. So they just like to measure the horse's field. And just like you said, being around the horse will regulate. And I saw this, this teenager. Was one one session. It was only 30 minutes. He completely went silent, so he didn't need mom and it lasted. I had to ask his mom because his mom couldn't believe it. She's not really ever heard him not do the high pitch squealing and him and this horse just had a special like connection. And it's, it's so fun to watch the kids that are so innocent, just kind of like gravitate to a horse and it's usually like perfect when you just trust that you have a special energetic connection. So my whole point of this is that I don't have the training that you have to like how do you approach a horse and all that I did. Learn, I just can read energy and I was just gentle with the horses and, and a lot of times I have, I go to chiropractors that adjust horses and they're like, Jen, that's really all you need to do is like tune into their energy. So for me, I was making it complicated and I was like, well, maybe I need to go for my equine training and have a certification. And then you talk to real horse people and they're like. No, you don't really need that, so you don't, you don't need it to be around horses and to have that comfort with them, to experience a sort of, I don't know, just shared peacefulness. And when I, so I'm, excuse me, I massage horses. Yeah, you find sports massage therapy and this country they offer certifications to a lot of people. Um, so even if you're not really in one with horses or you don't even really ride at some places, you can learn about the massage and whatnot. I took mine to the next level, because I'm involved in horses so deeply and know more about their biomechanics. I really studied their biomechanics, but knowing how a horse moves. And understanding what that can mean for them pain wise and then accessing that energy to massage them and to work on those areas that may not feel well, they talk to you, they communicate with you, they share their energy, they share their, their feelings. And it's whether or not muscle sore, whether or not they're upset. You know, why are they upset? What hurts? That kind of thing. So you're accessing their energy. And I did learn from a gentleman that I met recently who does Reiki on horses, that he, when you approach a horse's energy field, the best thing to do is step in. And my advice is towards the shoulder because horses can see from side to side, but not necessarily from the front and just step in towards their shoulder and allow yourself to be for just a few seconds, step back out. And let your heart and your energy think with that horse step back into that field and you'll be more. and then when you first step in, so step in, allow a connection, step back in, allow it to reconnect and then go ahead and move towards the horse, petting the shoulder, the neck and what, what have you. So there's some things that I've learned that just in approaching that I may have studied quite a bit about horses, but everybody has a different way of doing things. And it doesn't necessarily have to be studied, you know, you can learn from horse people and other people. I know the first time I did, one of the techniques that I utilize is neuro emotional technique and I did that on a horse that had some trauma. Like you hear about the stories of the horse and it was cool because a lot of people will say, some people will say that you, really, horses don't have that type of memory. And I don't believe that to be true because you're, you probably feel what's releasing. Or you can get a sense for the energy that's releasing from the muscles or the, because your issues get stored in your tissues. I don't care. Right. Right. Like the body does keep the score and whether that's a horse or, and I have friends who are animal communicators. And if you just have an open mind that they're like a soul with a body that then it opens up. so many more possibilities, but I remember people being like, you know, I don't know what you're doing with the horse because they don't have, um, like that kind of memory. And I'm like, ah, are you sure? Because this horse, like as soon as we did NET(NeuroEmotional Technique) and we, I use somebody to surrogate muscle test, the horse, somebody who's in the field. And then we were muscle testing and figuring out where it was stored, what kind of emotion it was. And then we were. All in the field, just releasing the same emotion because we can all tap into the same emotion. And then I got the validation because I'm sure some people looking like, what is Jen doing? She's doing some crazy woo stuff again. And the horse ended up, doing the yawn, the autonomic shift and like the everything relaxed after the release. So I'm sure you see some interesting things being. So intimate in the energy field and touching the horse and massage. And I, you know, it's about getting kind of your, your rhythm together. First, I take a lot of deep breaths when I'm massaging. I have a specific kind of path that I follow, but for every. Or modality that I follow, but for every horse that adjusts here and there, every horse needs a little something different. And every horse kind of speaks to differently in their own way with the yawning, with the movement, whether they like something or not, they're showing you, hey, that hurts, help me out here or here I'm releasing with the yawn and with the stretching of the neck and the relaxation of the breath and the slowing of the heart rate and the rolling of the eyes, like all that are good release things. And currently I work with a veterinarian, that does the muscle testing. Cool. Fascinating. She's a practitioner. She and she does adjustments on the horses through the musculoskeletal system doing muscle testing and I work in that every day and I never experienced that prior to working with this amazing doctor and I see it every day all day when we're out at farms doing what she does and which is fascinating. Magic to me, um, which is just above and beyond your, my massage, you know, just the true connection and really get tapping into all of it. I never understood that. I never took the time to learn. I never knew a lot of that was out there. Yeah, but I love that you're meeting unicorns within the field. That's a term, a unicorn. She is such a unicorn too, but she has really taught me a lot about tapping into these other energies and how to read them and all that. Now, I don't say I do that, but I witness it and it's amazing. And I think like, you take what you learn, you're gonna, you're gonna embody it in your own unique lens and your healer, like. Your skill set. I feel like we all have our unique gifts that we bring to the table. I was going to ask you though, what do you notice in terms of, um, yeah, I guess you're just, what is your why behind you want behind wanting to make horses? release or feel good? Like what got you into the massage? So I just realized as I was getting older, I got really sick personally. I had a autoimmune disease, come up out of nowhere in my thirties that took me out and I couldn't ride. I couldn't really do much of anything. So there went my passion. There went my work. There went my life's work. Everything was just dash gone. And, so I had to figure out a way that I could do something with the horses that I could do physically. And then I could do mentally and my mentor who's in Michigan, she, I met her and she did the, some of the certifications for the equine sports massage therapy. And I thought it was just fascinating. And I thought, Oh my God, why not this? This is good for me. It's good for them. It really, it just reduces trauma in the horses. It helps them to feel better, to move better. I'm communicating with the horses. I'm getting my horse fix, if you will, and I'm still able to help them along like I had through training. And so that's what started it all meeting a wonderful human who happened to do this and I went down to Virginia to study. I went up to Michigan to study with her. I've studied in Wisconsin. I've studied in Illinois. I've really spread my base out to learn as much as I can about the movement of the horse and The feeling of the horse first, the musculoskeletal system and all that as well. but to really learn what it's like to, what happens when you touch an animal, what happens? It's not just, Oh, here, how are you doing? Good boy. There's, there's things, there's an energy transfer, an energy shared, and you can make that so good. And you can make that horse perform at its sport that it loves to do, it's these are horses that are in the sport horse world that, enjoy their purpose. Yeah, they, yeah, absolutely. And it helps them to do it to the best of their ability. So that's what I saw is. Being the next thing that I could do, um, was this was to massage the horses, get into the, I was already in the communities from training and whatnot. so it was just, Hey, this is what I do now. How can I help you? Oh, I love that. I love that pivot that you made. Yeah. You're looking at sure. Not the best situation, but you're, how am I going to make this work for me for us? How can I still utilize my gifts? That's amazing. And it turned out that I was. I'm okay at it. I made a living at it and, I think I have a good connection and it works well for me and it works well for the horses I work with. And a variety of horses too, your sport horses, your backyard pals, all of them, everything in between, would you say you have a special, I don't know how to word this without, you love all the horses, but is there, cause when I was out at. The ranch, there was just one horse that I feel like I've known for lifetimes and lifetimes and lifetimes that we just had a relationship that was that transcend time or space because everybody's like, boy, this whole horse smoky, loves you. I'm like, I love smoky. I miss, do you have some of those connections with some of your horse clients? I have to say that I have had, some really you've you're in that. Intimate personal space with these amazing large creatures, and, their feelings are just as big as they are. And when you work on them on a regular basis. You build a connection with that animal. Even they see you, they relax. I have horses that I walk in the barn, I start talking, they see me and they start yawning. And they know what's to come through the experience of working with me. And I know what I know what to look for with them too. Are they that way? Are they off a little bit personality wise? Are there things going on? But You do form a connection with them. I do believe though, there are some that I've had, that I've been like, you know, like, you know, for a lifetime, they're your best friend, Yeah. I mean, I also, I observed, energy. I, I often. And then the same way I would approach a nonverbal individual that I work with, as long as I'm more of a clear conduit to divine, to like energy of love, whatever you want to call that, the better, the more, and, but I did notice that we'd have volunteers and of course their heart was in it, but they would come up and Or they be in the horse's field and they would be in a crap mood and the horse would be like, that horse would like nip, like there was behaviors where the horse would be like, I don't like, I don't like how this human is. I don't like the energy of this human that's in the field. So I got to see both ways of, um, you know, and I always often, just because I do read energy, so well, I'd be like, okay, you know, maybe I would. At the last minute, be like, somebody else is going to lead the horse today because I can tell they were off and the horses just, we all just sink into the energy and I noticed that we didn't want to perhaps have that kind of energy muddling the experience. Absolutely. I mean, in training too, you work with people, you teach lessons to people and you see things that don't necessarily, not a good match is the way I would put it, whether it be for that moment. Whether it be for that day, that moment in time or any of it, or even period, they just don't match. But yes, I know exactly what you're talking about. And I worked with the hippotherapy program, which is, I'm sure you know what that is. Um, that's where, that's where the ranch I was, it was called, it was a hippotherapy ranch, which everybody's like hippotherapy. I'm like, yeah, it means horse and whatever. But I've seen some of the things you've seen with nonverbal, physically. Challenge for whatever challenge. Yes. For whatever reason, it may be a mentally challenged, through experiences in life. And there is just this thing there's so much. Yeah. Well, and it's undeniable though, that there is that other thing. Oh, the other thing where the, you know, right. It is just, you see people open up and start to move in ways they've never moved before and it's so healthy for their body, it's so healthy for their mind, and these horses are dedicated to doing it. I know, that is true. that's what I witness is that in, oftentimes, we would have parents bringing their, whether it was their adult, a child to the ranch driving, we're talking maybe an hour longer because just even that 30 minutes or that hour, whatever they could tolerate was the peace and the joy that this individual looked forward to. It was like what their whole, their whole aura, their whole face plus. Their field would just light up on the horse and that's the magic where I was like, it is worth me driving out here and maybe, you know, I just was learning so much from the horses and plus also just benefiting, myself. I just felt lighter, happier, calmer, when I was around the horses. And I have to say, as it transitioned into my getting into veterinary medicine as a large animal tech. You can bring those techniques then into these horses that you're not there because generally you're not there because they're well. You're there because they're injured or they're showing signs of pain or there's an emergency, you know, we do do our regular visits our wellness visits, but there's a lot of times you're there because something's wrong. And so when you walk into that energy field, you can see it in them. You can feel it just vibrating off of them and you can just bring in a little bit of peace and a little bit of calm and take a breath with them and just try to get them as, more neutral and more relaxed as possible. Talk to them quietly, things like that, that I bring in from the massage practice, that I bring into the job I do every day. And I really believe that it transitions over quite well. That's amazing. Is there any. Advice out there for maybe somebody that is interested in horses, but thinks, Oh, I don't know any, you know, how do you approach a horse? They're fight or flight animals and obviously they're prey. so they, I was just some of the stuff that I learned what being at the ranch with these volunteers that have been around horses, they just all came in with different information. And I'm like, give me all the information, but, yeah. Again, the huge thing was the not approaching the horse like direct because of the way their eyes are positioned, but what else would you just for like a newbie that might want to, I don't know, take up this as a healing modality? I would say find something like one of those type of therapy programs are more prevalent than you'd realize and volunteer if you can volunteer or pay for some beginner lessons, something that like, yeah, just a local stable or something near you where you can learn from the ground up. You just want to learn. Not how to ride, but how to handle a horse and how to handle her safely. And I feel like if you can take a couple of lessons, maybe see if it's for you, of course, hop on and ride and stuff like that, but make sure that, you're using safety equipment, helmets, and, you have the correct footwear on, boots with heels. so your foot doesn't slip through the stirrup, like all these little things that you can come up with. But the whole thing is really is to just. find a way, even if it's at a sanctuary or a rescue that you can volunteer. And I love it. I love that. These are places or horses and other animals as well that need some attention. Yeah, I noticed that. They feel, they feel happier. They're herd animals. They want to be around either other horses or other people. Right. Um, I, I did have my daughter in some lessons and I noticed that, and it was a great, the instructor was great because My Chloe loved to groom, it was like a love language for her to brush the horse and tack, she liked the whole, I don't know if it was the, it just had a peacefulness to her, like you said, you're in, and I'm like, wow, she got an award at horse camp for being the best groomer, she would tack the horses, yeah, but I, that was a reframe for me because, it Sure, you know, we've played some competitive sports soccer and I'm like thinking, Oh, she's going to learn how to ride. And it's good. And I'm like, no, she really already is so in tune with energy. She's fine. She just has to understand the horse. And that's the first foundational thing is. Figuring out those tweaks to how to enter the field of the horse and being that mindful and present with the experience. But I had a different picture in my mind that like we're paying for lessons so she's going to learn, you know, and it was a lot of the foundational stuff and I'm coming to learn that that's a good instructor right there. not just throwing a kid on a horse, yeah, we're gonna do, yeah. So from the ground up, that's how I learned. And that's how I believe is how I taught. And that's how I continue to work with horses. From the ground up. Yeah. Well, I am so appreciative of you taking time to chat about you and your journey. And I didn't, I didn't realize that that was like your career pivot and what an, what an inspirational story that you're still able to, give back and also receive healing, right? Yes, absolutely. The receiving has been probably the most healing part for me through my illnesses and whatnot. I just, If they give back and you just have to be open to receiving it and understanding that it doesn't necessarily come in a black and white way, it's all the rainbows. It's all the senses. It's all the feelings. It's just all the little things to that. People seem to just maybe skip over because they're more focused on the competition or, other things, but be open minded and. I love your safety and, just get out there and do it. Right. I love that. How can people find you? I know you have your, your business, but are you on social media? I do have a Facebook page for my business. it is, Elite Equine Massage Therapy, WI for Wisconsin. I don't do a whole lot through there. I do like to, it's a way I connect with people and then I like to take it to the phone, like talk to that. Yeah. I like to, it's not about necessarily the. The texting or going through Messenger, that's a base of to connect with me, but I really like I'll talk to you on the phone. I want to talk to you. I love your horse or send me pictures of your horse or talk to me about what's going on. Maybe I can help maybe not. But, at least now we formed a connection and maybe we can both advise each other on something different. It's just communicating and I do like that. Oh, I do want to ask you one more thing because I wondered if this is something you see, do you see that sometimes it's a connection issue between owner and horse? But are you, are you sometimes, you know, like the dog whisperer, we think something's going on with our dog and it's really us. Yeah, I would say there's a lot of shared, anxiety if you go to the barn and you have a personality or a day of feeling like you were discussing earlier, you having a bad day and you bring that into the barn and you bring that to your horse or you bring that to your riding and the way that you act around the animal. It's obvious it'll change when your mood is better and sometimes it doesn't change at all because there's no good connection. So horses need to have a safe place to, it's not just the people going to the barn and feeling better, which is lovely. I mean, that's how I feel. That's great. But that's like energy vampire ish. Right. You've got to like show up and be good, a good energy to be in, right? Yeah, be present, and pay attention to your animal. If you work with them from the ground up, you'll see things that may be causing them stress, like an abscess in the hoof or rocks, a rock stuck in a hoof that if you hadn't picked that hoof up and taken a look at it, you may think they're just crabby, or having issues or, not having a good energy themselves. And it's really something in the foot that could have been taken care of right away. So if we're looking at our animals from the ground up, from the inside out. I feel like that's when you're going to have your best relationship. And that's when you're going to notice things are very good. Or, people are struggling and, or the horses are struggling and they say, yeah, something's wrong with my horse. Can you come out and take a look? He's not. Moving well this way, or he's just generally crabby or whatever, and I'll come out and take a look and see what we can do. And sometimes it's, sometimes it's internal, like, I call it biomedical, what is the, so we'll see, this is going to show my lack of knowledge, but is it, what is this the name for when there's inflammation in the feet or the hooves? Laminitis. Thank you. That was a common thing where, but I'm like, okay, if I knew what the root was and if it's inflammation, how much are you, as with your vet tech stuff, are you just going in and reading all aspects of the horse to find out the root of my, what might be the pain or the source of. Well, I have great doctors that I work for. They do all the diagnosing and treating. I just help the horses along the way, but you do look at what's obvious. Yeah. Are they limping? Are, can, are they walking back on their feet for something like that? You look for obvious signs, grinding teeth, things that show pain, and then you break it down from there, and, yeah, I love that you're working with that. Yeah. I love that you're working with a practitioner that muscle tests, because that's how I healed from. Uh, Lyme disease and co infections when like medicine is like, we don't know what's going on with you. They almost think you're crazy. So I love that there is a practitioner out there. Does she, does she bring out like vials? Does she do that kind of muscle testing where she does? She does when one requested she has used those. I have seen her use those. Yes. It's very interesting to have muscle tests for allergies or things. Yeah. Yeah. Very fascinating. Cool. I know. Cause you can muscle test of some, if they're like certain parasites, all the things that's cool, but that's amazing. And I thank you again for sharing your time. Cause I could talk about horses. All day long. I miss'em. I need to get out and volunteer and get back to seeing horses because Yeah, we moved, it has a go ahead. We moved up to an area where there's ranches everywhere. Yeah. And I had thought that I was going to get the land and have a horse or two, and maybe that's down the line, but I just need to get back in there into that world again because Yeah. Yeah. They're grounding. They're so grounding. And they also, I feel like they taught me a lot about energy healing too. So I'm like, I'm sure I do not have anywhere near your knowledge of that, but I can say in with utmost confidence that is something that is a real thing. It is a real sharing energy, understanding their energy. It is definitely something to have in your back pocket to understand them. If you guys want to find Holly, I have, I'll have everything in the podcast notes for finding you if they have questions and that's awesome that you're a wealth of knowledge and yeah, I'm happy to share. I happy to learn. So thank you for having me. Absolutely.
PJ McNerney:
All content by Jennifer McNerney and guests are for educational and informational purposes only. Listeners acknowledge said content does not constitute medical or professional advice or services. This podcast is for private, non-commercial use Only guests on this podcast do not necessarily reflect any agency, organization, company, or potentially even themselves.