Leadership at the Edge: How Admissions Leaders Manage Emotional Labor in a Landscape of Crisis and Change

Leadership isn't just about supporting others. It's also about sustaining yourself. In this episode of Admit It, Dr. Cassandra Heath discusses the emotional demands of leadership and how leaders can empower and care for their teams while also prioritizing their own well-being. From navigating stress and uncertainty to avoiding burnout, this conversation offers practical insights for leaders striving to show up for others without losing themselves in the process.

Host:

Dr. Alex Fronduto
Academic Lead, M.Ed in Education Administration & Associate Teaching Professor
Northeastern University

Guests:

Cassandra A. Heath, Ph.D.
University Registrar
Office of the Registrar
Biola University 

Transcript

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Hello and welcome to the Admitted podcast. My name is Doctor Alex Ferduo, and I will be serving as your host. I am happily joined with Cassandra Heath, a PhD who's from the University Registrar of the Office of the Registrar at Viola University. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to talk about admissions and emotional labor and all the fun in between. I love that you already alluded to what our topic's gonna be, so thank you so much. So, Doctor Heath was at our acro annual meeting, which is how I heard about this presentation and knew that it would be great for us to be able to do this as a longer podcast, uh, in addition to just the ones we do at the annual meeting. And so she presented on Leadership at the Edge, how admissions leaders manage emotional labor in a landscape of crisis and change. So, pretty loaded title, and so I would love to hear first, you just introduce yourself, so we know who you are, and then maybe give us just a short kind of summary about what you kind of talked about, and we can go from there. Yeah. So my name is Doctor Cassandra Heath, and I am the university registrar at Viola University in La Mrada, California. Um, Most people will probably be asking, well, why is a registrar setting admissions? That seems a little odd. And really, it actually has to do with my origin story in higher ed. I started in admissions and spent about 10 years of my career in admissions before moving. I know, right? I'm like, I am a former admit. I always say I'm like, I'm still secretly an admissions person. Um, our admissions office, I would, they're like, Saunders's our covert admissions person just in another location. And so, Um, because every office needs those, right? And once I always tell people, once you're an admissions person, you can never go back. You always are that, that still is at the core of what you do. I just recognized early, you know, probably 10 years in that I'm like, I can make a little more of a difference on the registrar side of things to help the process for students coming in and then staying in, um, higher education institutions. So that's, that's kind of my origin story of how I got to where I am, but Really, what led me back to the admissions world in this topic is seeing all the crisis in higher education. So, I approached my doctoral studies, um, really with this question of how do we sustain leaders in higher education during the chaos that is higher education at this time. And I was looking at it from a personal lens as a leader myself. I want to understand how do I sustain myself? How do I not burn out? How do I not, how do we stay engaged with the work so that we can keep doing this. Um, and I think it's happening across the board and, you know, all over campus. And really what stood out to me as I approached my dissertation was, we are approaching a long season of crisis in admissions. Um, the demographic cliff is here. It's not going away for several years, and I want to understand how leaders are feeling about it, how they're sustaining themselves post-COVID, um, and understand how do we keep moving forward. How do we Keep engaging? How do we keep leading? How do we keep showing up as humans in this work? And so, that's really what my research for my dissertation was about, which is what led to this study was looking at how do we sustain ourselves emotionally so that we can stay engaged in this work. I love that. And so, uh, talk to me a little bit more about when did you do the research? When did you finish your dissertation, you know, that context is also important about, as you said, we're in a long time of chaos, and there's so many different reasons for that chaos. And so I'm curious, you know, based off when you did your research, there's probably different contextual elements that, you know, our listeners probably need to be aware of. Yeah, so I started my research in June of 2025. I mean, I was, as you know, with the dissertation, you're doing background work way before then, and I had done some work with, uh, leaders about crisis, post-COVID crisis. So kind of understanding how did particularly female leaders, including a few admissions leaders were in that, that study. Um, how did they cope with crisis and what did that, how did that change their work? Um, and so, as I approached my dissertation topic, I really wanted to look at the beginnings of the demographic cliff. So, my, my Interviews took place. I did a narrative inquiry, which for everybody listening, you don't need to know that word. Basically, I'm interested in stories, you know, we do so much with numbers and especially in the admissions world, it's all numbers, but what I wanted to understand is the hearts of the people actually doing this work and staying in this work. How do we, how do we learn from experience? How do we learn from people already doing these? Things. Um, and so, I did what's called a narrative inquiry, which is where I spent time with about 10 different admissions leaders across the country. Um, so, for 3 to 4 interviews, um, and these took place from June all the way till about October of 2025. So, If you can remember directly because I mean a lot has happened since then, um, that was the summer of the big beautiful bill. That was the summer of, um, we were starting to see pauses in visa, um, appointments for students, um, and I actually also serve as a PDS at a principal designated school official for international students as part of my role, um, so international student pauses, um, you know, we were seeing all sorts of things we weren't sure how. The big beautiful bill would unfold. We were starting to see echoes of the demographic cliff come in. Really what we were talking about more was the planning because as we know, we're currently in that kind of first year cycle. But there was still pressure post-COVID budgets. Schools are shutting down, and you know, there's, there's that constant pressure on admissions leaders, be better, do more, make it better than the last class. Oh, and by the way, you're gonna have to find more. Students that don't actually exist in the United States. So, right, we need to keep growing, though there isn't any growth for places. I completely understand. I also love the fact that you're saying, you know, there's all of these different pieces, right? There's not just one piece that's going on, and it has been exacerbated as more and more things keep getting piled on. And so talk to me a little bit first about. You know, what you heard, right? I'm sure as you think about your dissertation, I'm sure you listen to their stories and then you analyze and come from there, but I'm curious, like what were some of those initial thoughts that you had as you were starting to do these interviews, and then ultimately, you know, my later question is gonna be like, so what, what did you hear and what did you do? Yeah, so going in, I mean, with any academic work, you have to center it around some sort of framework. So the The framework I chose, and this is something that personally stood out to me. So I like to call this, this was a little bit of Cassandra me search of trying to understand how, how do I function as a leader. So I came across this concept called emotional labor, and it's the idea that we're paid to manage our emotions at work. So there are certain organizational culture rules. I'm sure as you're listening to this, you're thinking of, oh yeah, I can't show this particular emotion about this thing. You have to kind of mask or as the framework calls it either act. Um, so deep acting, which is kind of where you can understand why you're doing it, and you kind of are like, OK, I can connect with the why and I'm gonna change my emotions and maybe not show how I'm truly feeling, but masks to what's appropriate. Or there's surface acting where you cannot connect with why you're doing this. So you kind of have to be like, I always call that it's the it's fine method, you know, it's where you say it's fine. Like this is fine and everything's fine, and yes, I will find more students and yes I will do more things and yes,

I would love to work till 10: 8:03

30 at night reviewing something, you know, it's the, it's the masking when inside you cannot reconcile those emotions with yourself, you know, and so that starts to wear on you at time and that's what I was observing. Um, in leadership and in myself too, um, as a registrar, I was seeing, I'm constantly being asked for these things. And sometimes I can connect it, you know, sometimes I have genuine happy emotions or, you know, genuine emotion about that. Um, and I, I'm thankful I work in a safe place that I can express those emotions. But that's not always the case. Sometimes, you know, I'll, I'll deal with a parent maybe who's not happy about a decision that was made, and I have to mask a little bit, even though I may disagree with the parent, I have to kind of grasp that emotion and show the appropriate emotion. And so, I was observing this in myself and the toll that it was taking on me to constantly have to engage in this type of labor. And I'm like, I wonder if this is a thing, because if we're supposed to be leading well, we're supposed to be showing emotions, we have to take care of our teams as leaders, um, how do we, how do we show our emotion and not just be emotionally exhausted all the time, you know, uh, and for some, that's easier, but for a lot of us, you know, we don't always work in places where we get to have Every emotion we feel be shown. It's not always safe for us. And so that's kind of what started this conversation for me looking at my fellow, you know, particularly my vice president of enrollment. I'm like, how do they do it? How do they? How do they, you know, go in every day knowing that they have to deliver bad news at the times that the pressure is on them, and yet they still are, they seem OK on the outside. Are they, and my question was, are they really OK? Because I'm doing this on the other side and I don't know if I'm really OK. So, uh, So that's what started the conversation. And really, those first conversations were, you know, getting to know these, you know, and I, I wanna thank my participants because without them, this would not have been, you know, this would not have been the study it was, and I would not have learned the things that I did and be able to share these outside. Um, But I think people were vulnerable from the first off cause they want, they, they value what they do. Admissions is so important to the college experience and so important to the culture. So, they wanted to share, hey, here's what I've learned and here's how I'm feeling, and we need to talk about this. We need to talk about this so that this profession can continue and that people can stay healthy and not burn out like we've been seeing. I think there is so much to that about thinking about, right, you said on the individual level, the institutional level, you know, emotional labor as you're you're saying. I'm curious for your participants, were they all similar in terms of like title in terms of hierarchy standards, like how, what did you kind of think about, you know, as much as you can obviously disclose about who they were? Yeah, so I, I class them as all senior level leaders, which if you've worked in admissions, you know that can mean anything depending on the size of school. Um, so, uh, that's, you know, where I'll caveat that at is they all had. Similar level titles in, in a senior level, um, but their roles were wildly different depending on what size of school that they were at, and I actually, that was something I wanted. I wanted to represent the broader population of admissions because we aren't all at schools of 20-30,000 that, you know, the pressures look different depending on the size of your institution and the resources that you have. And so, yeah. And if they feel like they're gonna really be impacted by the demographic cliff, right, there are institutions that are actually growing or having institutions that are not concerned about the amount of applications they're receiving, right? So, you know, as you're stating, right, like the small private tuition dependent institution versus, you know, and, you know, an Ivy League is going to still also feel a little different. Yeah, it and it definitely did that, that showed up in my interviews across the board with my participants, um. It really did, but the core issues were still the same. The pressure they felt, you know, while the concerns varied, um, so some of them were concerned about applicants, some of them were concerned about different things. Some of them, even the ones that maybe weren't concerned about the demographic cliff, were concerned about the big beautiful bill, were concerned about other, you know, how the industry is shifting, um, different parameters that, you know, are being pressed. Upon them, um, you know, the fast changing pace of leadership ideas, um, implement this, do this now, and you're like that takes a year to figure out, you know, uh, so those things, you know, those showed up across the board, which is what allowed me to kind of begin to observe, OK, there's, there's some big things here that we need to pay attention as leaders. Um, we need to pay attention to. You know, how we're, what we're being asked to do and how our emotions are showing up and how we take care of ourselves. I think that was one of my big takeaways from all of this is the leaders, you know, and leaders I interviewed had been in this for a various amount of time. I think this, the shortest was 6 years, the longest was 25, and so, um, so kind of a good range, but across the board, what I heard is from the, especially those who had been up, you know, in leadership for longer than 15 years was. It all depends. Like, you can sustain this if you take care of yourself. Like you have to be radical about self-care. You have to be radical about knowing what you need and knowing when to break, which is hard, especially in admissions where you're constantly running, you're constantly being asked to do better, do more, you know. And so that was one of the things that I took away for even myself as a leader is, OK, I am not great at self-care. I am the first to be like, let my team, let my team take vacation. I'll stay behind and do the work, but Those who were able to persist, persist recognized they had to set boundaries. They had to know how to turn off, even if it's just for a second, so that they can have more to give, um, when they came back. And I think that point is, is especially important, right? Like we know that if you are burned out, even as much as you're like, oh, I'll take the work from my staff, if you are burned out, you're not going to be able to care and support them as much as you should be. So I think that that's a really important point. I'm curious, and this may have not come out at all, so this is like totally out of left field. No, I love it. But for, for those that were in the field longer, have they felt that the pressure and or emotional labor has increased or is the same? Yes, they feel like it's increased dramatically, um. One of them, and I'm trying to caveat this without identifying you, um, but that one of them very much stated that they've been in this for a long time and admissions had changed. The, the role of admissions has changed several times since they began their career. It looks different. And again, I'm, I've been in higher ed now almost 20 years, you know, it's been about 10 years since I've been in the admissions office, but I can tell you. That's, it's changed since I've been in and it, and even the registrar's office has gone under a dramatic shift. And so, that fast pace, the pressure, the show up, do more, um, especially in crisis. I would say that's the other thing that's changed dramatically in higher ed is we used to see, we talked 10 years, 20 years ago about like one or two crises. We could identify schools of, oh well, they, they had a crisis. They had a crisis. Now I feel like inside higher ed is reporting on a crisis every day. I feel like, OK, it's which, it's not what crisis is there, it's which school will be in the news today, so. Yeah, and I mean, I think that that's really important because I think you always hear this duality of people that have been in the field a long time and they're like, oh, what, you know, when I did this, right? But now like for a lot of people to be acknowledging that the field is shifting and the pressures are shifting, yeah, as you said, it becomes a larger conversation because if people are not owning up to this, like, we are seeing a drastic decrease of people moving into mid-level management to then move into senior level management, and that It's like another, you know, almost demographic cliff that we are going to hit and we are already seeing, and I think not enough people are talking about that, right? Like if you don't have the people to run your admission office, then what are you going to do? Exactly, and that I, I, my participants brought that up a lot when we talked about. Why did, you know, cause I asked, you know, I'm like, OK, I'm asking you very vulnerable questions, you know, why are you OK with this? And one of the things that was said multiple times by multiple participants is, I want to inform the next generation. I want them to understand what they're walking into, but how valuable the work is. Um, All of my participants, one of the other big findings for me is those who were able to connect the work to mission. So why they're doing it, you know, um, whether that's personal mission, it's, it's much easier to stay engaged when it's your personal mission matches your institutional mission. But when they were able to say, OK. I have to admit, I have to do this project. Maybe I disagree with the way we're going about it, but it goes back to getting students and welcoming families on campus. It was much easier to justify the work that had to be done both emotionally and just the, the standard work that had to be done. It became easier for Them to stay engaged, even if they felt like they were burning out, even if they felt discouraged, you know, going back and centering on that personal mission and that, you know, and connecting it again to your professional organization was a huge thing that kept them engaged. And I think that's something. I know that's something that I've implemented in my leadership since that time. Um, I can point to the moment and my staff and I were just talking about this last week because they're like, you continue to point us back to the mission of why we do things and ask us those questions and they're like, this is new. This is, you know, this is something new. They're like. Like, yeah, they're like, we like it, we love it. They're like, but it helps, they're like, it helps me saying, and I'm like, well, it helps me stay engaged in the work too. It helps me remember that when I'm dealing with a hard moment or when I'm having to put in more emotional labor or surface act about something. I go back to my why and it makes it all, it makes it so much easier cause we're all doing this for a reason. We want, you know, we want students to be here and succeed. And so, keeping that forefront, and I think that's why some of the other things I found, you know, like taking time to rest, you know, reflecting, things like that, and we can talk a little bit about that in a second. Um, I think that's why that's important is those stepping away for a second gives you a chance to re-engage with that mission for yourself and for your institution. So. And I like that you differentiated like institutional mission and personal mission. I'm sure that can come up a lot. And so thinking about your why, we know not just for work, just in anything, and resurfacing your why can help with your motivation, and so I appreciate that that came out as well. Um. So you obviously said you did multiple interviews, and so you started to uncover some of this. I'm curious kind of how did it progress? Did it differ based off the participant? Was it standardized? Kind of was there certain logic that you had, um, other like key points? Yeah. Yeah, so I, I again 3 interview sequence. Um, what I did is I had a standard set of questions that I was asking every time, part of, you know, part of the dissertation process is you fire, you know, you, you get approval to do the study, especially with human subjects, and you follow that protocol. I think what changed is the way that participants engaged. And, you know, there were, you know, just because I've been in higher ed for a bit, um, there were some participants who knew me, you know, we, we, we've worked together, different things, you know, and that we've worked at the same institutions, things like that in the past. Um, but So I think by the end the same level of engagement came out, you know, people were being vulnerable, um, which I'm so thankful for because again they, this was voluntary. They didn't have to do this, you know,-- they-- chose to do 3 interviews. They chose to do 3 interviews, and it was one of those things where I think, you know, um. Through those, through those conversations, and you know, and really two formal interviews and like the last interview was more of checking transcripts, making sure that things were identified correctly, um, you know, and I really wanted to protect my participants' identity, but really even in those conversations, things came up that we didn't, you know, we needed to revisit. And so, um, I think the biggest thing that, you know, I really noticed across the board is that That integrity was a key value of the missions leaders, at least that I talked to, which I knowing and having worked closely with admissions leaders, I think integrity is actually a, a value across the board. But it really came down to their value sets and, uh, which included integrity and then optimism was the other thing that came out. Those who had an optimistic view or could get back to optimism quickly were able to develop what I'm calling emotional endurance to be able to, to get through each crisis situation and be able to move through without completely shutting down. And so, again, and then alongside, you know, setting boundaries, making sure that they understood how they were engaging with their team. Um, and that looks different. Those things all looks different for each leader. Like I can tell you, you know, different ones, you know, there was one that And I, I've adopted this philosophy in my life, who muted notifications after 5, because they're like, I, I just can't be on constantly. Um, that, while others were like, no, I need to look at my email. But this looks different, you know, this is where I take this time. So, for example, one of them would talk about, you know, they, they took 2 hours from 5 to 7, and that they didn't look at email during that time, and they use that time to reflect and set their day, you know, so. creating rhythms, things like that, of self-care along with helps sustain the values, which then allowed them to emotionally endure kind of through this. And so, kind of that was what ultimately came out of my research. And what I talked about a lot at ACR is how do we build emotional endurance, um, You know, especially as we are moving into this season of crisis, you know, what, what are some things we can do. But I also don't think emotional endurance is solely on the, is solely the responsibility of an individual missions leader. I think it's also the responsibility of a leadership team in an institution and the institution to create a culture that, that people can thrive and sur, you know, I would say survive, but also thrive in that. So. No, and I, I, you have alluded to some of my thoughts around, you know, where does it become the individual level and where does it also the impact of other external forces on them, and what they can control and what they can't, because we know some of that's also a trickle down. You know, for the most part, unless you're president, provost, chancellor type of person, you're going, you're reporting somewhere and someone is telling you something, right? And so how does that play out and then the trickle down effect to your staff and things like that. So I appreciated you kind of acknowledging that. So in your session. What were some like key takeaways? So if someone didn't obviously go to the conference or didn't go to your session, and they're like, this sounds like a lot about me. I feel like I'm burning out. I feel like I have this emotional labor, like, what should I be thinking about? Yeah, no, that's a great question. And honestly, that's, that was the joy of presenting at Acro, you know, um, about this is people were like, you described what I I've been feeling but never have been able to put words to. And I'm like, if it makes you feel better, that was me when I discovered this. Like I was like, oh, this is the other duties otherwise assigned emotional labor. That is what is tiring me out, you know, and again, I love my job, but it, it just their days, you know, we all have them. We all have them. So some of the things that I'll talk about the individual first and then we can move to the institution, um, so some of the things is building time for yourself to reflect and I'll be honest, I'm the first that is the worst about this. Um, I don't like journaling. Um, I don't, you know, those are the things that I'm like, same, I'm like reflection. What? Yeah, what is that? And so, um, I, but I would, you know, as I talk to leaders who are, you know, much more experienced than I am and seem to be not only surviving but thriving during this time. Reflection does look different. It's not always journaling. For some people, that works. But for me, what I found is I have started taking 2 minutes at the beginning of each day and just doing a quick emotional check-in on my phone. Apple has a really cool thing where you can say, how are you feeling right now about something? And so, I literally have set a reminder to be like, OK, how am I feeling right, right now? And what is influencing that? And it's, again, I'm a registrar, so I'm a little bit of a data person. So I, it tracks. That over time so I can kind of start to track, you know, what, oh, that's how I'm feeling. And it's a quick way because for again, for those of us who are not journalers, and I'm those who are journalers, I admire you. I want to be you. Please teach me how, but like it's just not,-- it's not-- something I do medit. Yeah, that's what I say about meditation. I should be, I should meditate. It's just not my thing. It's not, it's not my, yeah, no. And so that has been. You know, one way, figure out some way for you to reflect that fits who you are. Don't try to fit like what all the, you know, self-help practices say. Figure out something that, that brings you back. And so, for me, like I said, I've implemented a few practices that check-in is one of them. Um, I've also started, when my team gets into an emotional situation, and again, this is one thing that one of the leaders suggested, and I've definitely adopted it, is rather than having a meeting when, when emotions are escalating with one person, take that person on a walk. Because sometimes that physical activity will help de-escalate both of you, but also de-escalate the moment and give you some space to process. So, figuring out practices like that, um, Figuring out ways to engage, you know, your staff, but also protect yourself. I think for me, you know, one of those things that I, and I shared this with um everybody at ACro is figuring out what your boundary is on engagement. I've realized like, I can engage 5 days a week and be great. I don't need to shut off my email at night. I'm good. But the weekend, I need one day to, to recharge. So, I, and this seems ridiculous, but I delete my email off my phone one weekend day, just so I have that day to focus on other spaces in my, in my life. And I think, again, I think this will be individual to each person. Um, but my encouragement is if you're feeling this way. Try something different to take care of yourself. Like it, it, it doesn't have to be big. And like I said, I don't think any of the things that I described are huge life changes, but the accumulation of them, I think, has helped me. Um, as a leader, figure out how do I engage well and kind of refill my tank, set boundaries, and so that I can pour back out to my team, because I, I support a team of 24. And, you know, that, that I, most admissions offices are that and higher-paced work, more stressful work. So, I, you know, figuring out those individual practices. And then, I always say this, have people you can talk to who understand this, whether that's, you know, people you meet and, and I'm gonna plug. Acro here, but like, I have met some of my, my best professional friends in Acro at different sessions and having people you can connect with who understand the work you do, maybe outside of, you know, your, your personal circle really does help to say, OK, I'm dealing with this thing. And they're like, yes, I get it. I know, I'm dealing with that thing too. It looks different. But having space to process. And again, this will be different depending on who you are as an individual, but I would say, Most, you know, not all admissions folks are extroverts, but a lot of them are. So having that social circle, you know, even if you are an introvert to just say someone to be like, yeah, man, I'm getting a lot of pressure from our board, you know, whatever. You know, like, can I just scream into the void, you know, so, right, yeah, having your tribe, I've heard people like I do a lot in supervising and tell people to have like your board of directors, right? Like who can you go to to get feedback from if you're dealing with a difficult situation, right? Like those are the only people that are going to understand who and what you're dealing with. It's the same thing with PhD dissertation life, right? You know, you need to have a community, so they not everyone understands what you're going through. Yeah, yeah, and one other fun thing I'll share, um, and this is something that I'm gonna out my millennialness here, um, because I love, I love memes, and so my kind of my, my group that, you know, I kind of our peers and who I can talk to you about these things, we create memes to describe how we're feeling about things. So the most sometimes unhinged, um, I love different things. I'm actually gonna pull one, that we created that I keep on my desk, so. Again, I work in the registrar's office, but this one, it says,

I left 5 messages at 4: 29:23

57 p.m. So, things like that, that you can just, cause again, humor is going to lighten whatever you're feeling. Sometimes you just need to laugh. And so, um, we did this activity a couple of weeks ago with my office. We were in the midst of commencement season and I was like, OK, I want you all to create a meme about how you're feeling. There is No judgment here. You know, this is a safe space. And I mean, the therapy that that was, you know, again, so, so just engaging in ways that make you feel like reconnect you with yourself. And so, and like I said, that looks different. And like I said, journaling for me, I relate to the meditation thing because I can't, I'm like, I've tried, like I just start thinking of my to do list. So yeah. Um, and so, uh, thinking about the institutional level, were there any things that you had suggested? Yeah, so, I think leadership teams need to be a little bit more aware of the emotional asks that they're making of their, their leaders as well as their, um, their, the people that report to them. So, I'll tell a story. Um, I sat in a meeting, this was probably 2 years, 2.5 years ago. Um, I was just at the beginning of this emotional labor journey defining it, doing my first study, and I We were asked to do something by a senior leader, and I was sitting next to my boss and I leaned over to her. She's a psychologist, so I get to, you know, I'm thankful that I have. I also, if you can work for a psychologist, work for a psychologist. They are amazing bosses, um, so shout out to Doctor Tammy Anderson. She's the best, um, but that's my boss, um, but I, I leaned over and said. I don't know that you guys realize, but you're asking for emotional labor here. Like, and some pretty big emotional labor. And it dawned on them and it became a conversation, um, because I don't think people realize the ask. And so, one of the suggestions I had is really think through your ask, What are you asking your employees to do? How are you asking them to engage? What example are you as a leadership team setting about how emotions can be portrayed? You know, and again, not asking people to change, but recognizing like where, you know, you may not emote that way, but somebody else may need to, you know, and creating safe spaces and also creating space where you can have honest conversations. I mean, that seems to be, that seems to be. A struggle, especially in leadership teams, there's a constant pressure to perform and show that you're doing things. But the leaders, I will tell you this, the leaders who felt most secure in their positions were leaders who had good relationships with their other fellow senior leaders, who were able to kind of talk about these things. Um, and what I will say, a fun observation is Those leaders who are gonna be able to emotionally endure in this are going to move to find these structures. They are no, they, what I'm seeing now is, I'm sure, you know, Arodata um really affirms this. Leaders are moving to find structures that better serve their values. And so, that's things I think that institutions need to make sure they understand is like, you, you need to hire people that align with your values, but also you need to live out your values. So, No, I think that's a great point. I mean, even just from a, like you're saying, like work life expectations, things like that, we know the idea of work has changed so drastically that if you're still back before then, like, people are going to find places that better suit their needs as well. And so I appreciate that. Yeah. Well, this has been such a great conversation. I am so happy that you took the time to really tell us everything that you presented, especially for all those people that couldn't attend. So thank you, thank you so much, and we appreciate you coming on the podcast.