Learning from Professionals Series – Interview with Carlos Cano

In this episode of Admit It, host Alex Fronduto, Associate Teaching Professor at Northeastern University, sits down with Carlos Cano, Director of Undergraduate Admissions at Stevens Institute of Technology, to explore his professional journey in admissions.

Carlos shares insights on career growth, his approach to leadership and supervision, and practical advice for aspiring and current admissions professionals. Whether you're looking to advance in the field, refine your leadership style, or gain new perspectives on enrollment management, this conversation is packed with valuable takeaways.

Tune in to hear Carlos’s experiences, lessons learned, and strategies for success in the world of higher education admissions.

Host:

Dr. Alex Fronduto
Faculty Lead, M.Ed in Higher Education Administration & Associate Teaching Professor
Northeastern University

Guest:

Carlos Cano, Director of Undergraduate Admissions at Stevens Institute of Technology

Transcript

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Welcome to the Admitted podcast hosted by Acro, where we dive into the experiences, challenges and successes of enrollment management professionals and topics. I'm your host, Alex Fronuddo, and I'm excited to sit down today with Carlos Cano, director of undergraduate admissions at Stevens Institute of Technology in New Jersey. Carlos has had a dynamic career in admissions and will be exploring his professional journey, his approach to supervision and leadership, and his advice for those looking to grow in the field. Whether you're an aspiring admissions professional or a seasoned leader, this episode is packed with valuable insights. I hope you enjoy. Hello and welcome to the Admitted podcast hosted by Acro. This is your host, Doctor Alex Ferrondudo, and I'm excited to be joined by Carlos Cano, the director of undergraduate admissions at Stevens Institute of Technology. Today we'll be focusing on individual interviews with leaders within admissions. This will be a multi-part series. I'm excited to have part one with Carlos where hopefully he'll share insights with all of you about thinking about your next steps in admissions, thinking about how do you deal with transitions, things like the great resignation and everything in between. Carlos, thanks so much for joining us today. Alex, thank you so much for having me. It's such a pleasure to be part of your series here. Thanks so much. Well, obviously, like I said, we really want to be focusing on your journey, your experience, and the first thing that's probably important for all of our listeners is to know a little bit about yourself. So I'd love if you could take a moment to introduce yourself. For sure. So, again, my name is Carlos Cano. I'm currently the director of undergraduate admissions at Stevens Institute of Technology in Hoboken, New Jersey. Uh, this is my 15th year in higher education, uh, admissions and enrollment. I am a, uh, first gen college grad. Um, I'm a student ambassador turned admissions person, a lifer at this point, having been in so long, right? Um, but yeah, I mean, they always say once you hit about year 5 or so, that, that, that's it. And at this point, I'm in 15 and um, but have loved. Every, every second of it, uh, I started off as an admissions counselor at my alma mater. Like I think so many of us do. I had the pleasure of working at my alma mater, William Patterson University in New Jersey, uh, for about 7 years. Uh, I was an ambitious counselor and assistant director, um, and then in 2017, I moved on to Maritime College, which is part of the SUNY system in New York, um, where I was doing still admissions, communications work. Um, and um. And and recruitment and review and all that fun stuff still as well. Um, but then also in 2020, uh, I moved on, and 2020 is interesting, right? Cause it was right in the middle of COVID, so made a transition there, uh, to, uh, a director role at Georgian Court University, so a small regional private institution in New Jersey. And fast forward to last year, uh, so 2024, started right on January 1st as the director of undergrad at Stevens. Uh, so I've been there a little over a year now, um, and it's been great, but I've, I've loved every second that I've worked in the role, uh, in, in it at Stevens and in all my previous, um, experiences as well. So again, hope that I can provide and shed some light on. Some of the things we'll talk about today, Alex, and, and help our peers that are out there uh navigating the space. Thank you so much for sharing all of that, especially the context of, you know, different positions you've been to a variety of institutions, so I'm sure you've had even different experiences institution to institution, I'm sure. Absolutely, yeah, I mean, uh, mid-size, uh, public institutions, smaller public institutions, small private institution, and now a small private institution, but uh a little bit more selective, so a little bit of everything in terms of the dynamics for sure. Yeah, I mean, I think that that context even there is really helpful so that you really have that multi-lens because you've had all of those different experiences. So I appreciate you sharing that. And thinking about kind of the different experiences and you already highlighted COVID and all of these other things that have been a constant conversation. We know that one of the hardest things that people are talking about is kind of staffing. And so you've kind of also have moved to different institutions. So I'm curious now where you're sitting, especially as the director with something top of mind. You know, how has the great resignation and until today in terms of affected your staffing or impacted, you know, your admissions world. It's, it's crazy to think that, uh, as I, as you, you asked that question, right? And my immediate thought is, for the first time in several years, I am on a team that is fully staffed. Wow. Congratulations. Thank you. And I knock on wood as I say that because that is not, that is not it right now for anyone. When I talk to my peers at other institutions, they are, you know, they're down a staff members, they just hired one, but they're losing another one, like all of this influx and, and it really came uh from, you know, from COVID, right? So many things came. From the, the COVID experience and that time and you know, right now I think. We're still in flux. There's still a lot of movement happening, uh, but I, and so, you know, it's interesting, right? And, and it's one of those things where I don't know if it's at this point, it's the norm, so it's not talked about as much. Um, but again, like I said, when I tell people that I'm, that I'm at full staff, it is a shock to everyone, right? So, it, it almost feels like it has sort of become the norm where people are, where staffs are not at full capacity because the The, the expectation is that, yeah, you're not going to be fully staffed and you're going to constantly be in transition, uh, in that sense, which I guess depending on, on who you ask, maybe that's a good thing, maybe it's not. I'm still trying to find my finger on the pulse of that, but I'll say that where I'm currently sitting, being fully staffed, it's fantastic, and I tell my staff all the time, you're, none of you are going anywhere. So, it's definitely been interesting to navigate for sure. Oh, I can only imagine, I completely understand everyone I talked to, every session I go to at a conference, it's always around these topics, you know, myself, I, you know, I ask these types of questions to a lot of people. I've done research on the great resignation, so. I completely understand where you say there has been a shift and unfortunately one of the things that keeps coming up is admissions does not really align with the shift in terms of people's work priorities, work life balance, etc. for your traditional, especially if it's like a small private needing enrollment type of institution. And so I'm curious if there's anything that you've done. To kind of help with retention. So you say you're finally fully staffed and you obviously want them to stay. Is there any ways either from the HR management standpoint or just like A staffing or supervisory standpoint that you feel like you've done well to help acknowledge some of these shifts in people's priorities or, you know, the changing dynamic. Sure, it's a combination of the two Alex for sure, right? Um, I'm very fortunate that my current institution is very much progressive and forward-thinking in the aspects of maintaining work from life, work, work. Life balance, um, allowing for hybrid schedules and so more work from home and allowing managers like myself to have the flexibility with their teams to allow for those kinds of schedules and, and that being said, with, with that flexibility coming from the institution, it allows me as a manager to. lay that out to my direct reports, my team to say, listen, here, here's what, here are the perks that we have available to us because our institution is so awesome and allows us to do these things and very practically, I, I remind them that. Unfortunately, at other places, it's not, that's not the case. And so there is a level of, I guess, humbleness that I want them to have for what they're able to take advantage of, but I'm also beyond that, I'm also very mindful of reminding them on a regular basis that they are not their job. Like they're a human being at the end of the day that has a family and bills to pay and things to do beyond the job and so it is important for them to prioritize those things as well. Uh, I think one thing that I, I take pride in being able to do, which is something that I learned from my mentors uh across the board, uh, when, when my team asks me for time off. As far as I'm concerned, if they have time that they've earned and they're able to use it, I don't need to ask why. I don't need to know why. Your time is your time, so it's approved, right? Um. And I think my staff, I'd like to think anyway that my staff really, you know, takes that, uh, to heart and, and they know that look, when they need a day, even if it's just to be able to reenter themselves after a couple of weeks of, of a grind through fall recruitment or through reading applications, uh, they know that they have the flexibility and the ability to just say. Hey, we're gonna, I'm gonna take today and re-enter myself and refocus and come back tomorrow, ready to go. Um, I, I remind them all the time how important it is for them to be at. At prime condition at peak shape, um, because I need them to be good for the long haul of the cycle, right? So that's super important, um, and, and something that I think about very, very frequently, um, is reminding them again that they're not, they're not defined by the title that they have, um, and the work that they do, um, that they need to take care of themselves. They need to take care of number one. I really appreciate you sharing all of those pieces. I think there was a lot there, like you said, from kind of the institutional beliefs to the department beliefs to your beliefs and how that spreads down, I think. Not every institution is like that, so I commend you to really thinking about that piece and thinking about the human aspect, um, because sometimes it's hard to do that when, you know, it seems like thankfully you have a little bit more flexibility in terms of, you know, the grind of, you know, enrolling students, but every institution is still, you know, always trying, but you know, trying to have that flexibility with people and understanding that. If they aren't at their peak, right, the burnout is what's going to lead to the retention issue and then potentially leaving. So if you don't address it early, you're just gonna essentially screw yourself later, right? Excuse my language, but, um, so I appreciate you kind of sharing that piece and also talking about the communication piece I thought was really interesting where you said. You actually talk to people about like, here are some of the benefits you have, like, remember this, um, it's not obviously saying like, The grass is greener, is not necessarily greener on the other side, but you're at least saying that not every institution is giving the benefits that yours does, um. And so I think all of that to say. When we're thinking about the great resignation and thinking about retention, right, that human aspect is really important. And when I think about yourself, when you've kind of been in your role for uh in the grand scheme of things, a short amount of time, right, compared to someone that might have been in at their institution for 10 years, let's say. I'm curious, you know, how was your transition? Like how did you feel like you got into your role, you know, stepping into the director role at a new institution with new staff, dealing with all of these types of things. So I'd love to hear a little bit more about, you know, how was that experience stepping into that kind of leadership role. It is certainly the, quite the adjustment, right? Um, and, but I think my previous experience transitioning to a new role and a direct role, I'll be very different. So my director role at Georgian Court University was more admissions marketing specific. Um, I still recruit, uh, I, I was still recruiting, I was still reviewing applications, I was still doing the admissions work, but I had more of a focus on, on the enrollment marketing piece, um, at that particular institution. Transitioning to Stevens, it was Really more exclusively the admissions piece, the admission cycle, the staff are working with our admissions counselors, um, so I think that in itself was probably the biggest transition where I went from a director role where I didn't have anyone directly reporting to me, it was more indirect reporting that I had versus now being in the director's seat and having staff directly report to me. So it was, it was definitely a process because I felt like First, I needed to get to know my staff. I that's so important to me, and I think sometimes maybe folks lose sight of that, uh, or maybe it's not, it's not something that they're used to doing. But I have always found that when developing that rapport, when developing that relationship in the workplace, to be able to start from a point where I just want to get to know more about you. Like, let's forget about the job for a moment. That's gonna be there. When, when we're done talking about Whatever it is we need to talk about right now, the work is gonna be there. So let's put that aside for a moment. Let me get to know a little bit more about you, what your goals are, what are you trying to accomplish while you're here on this team? Beyond, yes, we need to meet goal and we need to hit up this many schools in the fall recruitment cycle, but what, what drives you? As an admissions counselor, as an assistant director, as an associate director, uh, so whatever your next goal is. So that was certainly, you know, the, the starting point for me, um, and getting to know everyone and, and meeting them where they were. And then I think the other piece too was managing expectations and establishing those expectations uh with, with my team, with my direct reports within the construct and uh the construct and, and the, the layout of what we're trying to accomplish as an institution. Right? So, you know, establishing those basic, uh, I think expectations, and again, a lot of the expectations that I tried to establish with my team are not necessarily directly related to an institutional goal or an admissions goal. They're simply based on For example, if we have a 45 minute time block that's for a meeting and conversation needs to take more than that, and we both have the time, I'm gonna give you that time to continue having that conversation or if we need to stop, take a pause and come back and revisit it, we're gonna do that. But I'm always going to allow for conversations to continue and to reach a point where we get to some kind of conclusion. Um, I think that's important, you know, as well, right, for folks to feel like they, they have the ear, uh, of their supervisor, of their leader, of the director. Um, so again, that's one of those things that I felt was really important for me to be able to establish with, with the team and, and so far a year later. Again, knock on wood, none of them have left, none of them have quit, right? So I'd like to think I'm, I'm doing something right in that regard. Um, and, and so yeah, so I think that that certainly was,-- was my transition more or less into that-- role. I, I definitely understand where you're coming from, you know, stepping into a spot, especially where the staff is there, right? It's not like you started a new institution and you brought all your staff on, right? So you are stepping into. A dynamic, there was someone there before you potentially, so there's, there's all of those dynamics that you're dealing with. So um I appreciate you sharing kind of like how you stepped in and what you thought your role was and how you wanted to connect with your staff. um. I'm curious for context, just so for our listeners as well as is your kind of department a matrix approach, so like who directly reports to you versus who are people reporting to them, kind of uh just a quick kind of like summary of the department would be helpful too. Sure, absolutely. So my My coming onto the team was part of a restructure that was done within undergraduate admissions. So on our team, we have a, a dean director uh dynamic from the top down, right? So I report to our dean of undergraduate admissions at Stevens, and the dean, therefore reports to the vice president, right? So, you know, again, it's all relative to the institution, but Uh, you know, if you're at an institution that has an assistant or an associate vice president, uh, my dean would be the equivalent to that, right? Um, so I currently have 5, actually, I have 7 direct reports now, because of some, again, some more internal sort of restructuring that's been happening along the way, um, but I think, you know, and having said that, right, I want to also preface by saying that. Our, our division of enrollment management at Stevens has been, uh, is relatively new in terms of leadership all the way on down and The conversations are always ongoing and that we're always analyzing and examining on a regular basis if the dynamics of the structure work for what we are trying to accomplish. And so it's never a situation where we're trying, where we say, OK, this is our structure and that's it. Um, and so, you know, I say that I have 7 direct reports now, but it's very feasible that down the line that could change, right? Because as I have folks who report to me who are also managers at the associate director level, so we may find that there may be some shifts that we can make uh to make it more efficient. We have tried to Uh, mirror essentially, uh, and it's something that I got from a mentor of mine as well, who, who told me if you shouldn't have more direct reports than there are days of the week. So in theory, you should try to have one day of the week for each member of your staff, right? And so, you know, that's a fascinating thing in itself when, when you talk to some of our peers, Alex, about Uh, their reporting structure, you know, be curious to see what other people's look like, uh, because I know of my colleagues who have 9, 1010 direct reports, and that's, that's a lot, uh, obviously, and so, and mind you, I'm doing all of this with, I'll be a small recruitment territory because I still love to work with students, um, and have that dynamic as a part of my day to day as well, um. But I do believe in, in having a strong sense of involvement and interaction with my staff. Um, but yeah, so I have my direct reports, two of which are also managers, so they each have uh two direct reports to them, uh, to each of them. Uh, so, you know, managers, supervising managers, uh, which is also an interesting dynamic, um, and they're both relatively new managers as well. So they're also learning, right? So aside from Teaching them about admissions and enrollment management and their respective roles as associate directors, also mentoring and teaching them about supervision and how to develop uh their, their staff members as well. So, uh, you know, again, all a part of. Of the, the, the nitty gritty, the day to day, um, in addition to, yes, bringing in more applications and enrolling more students, but we do it all, right Alex like that's right. There's a little bit of everything. I completely understand. Um, I love that tidbit about days of the week, um, so in terms of a number of staff, because, I mean, there's a lot of research to show, right? Obviously, as the more staff you have as direct reports, it, it, it's just the math isn't there. There's less time you're going to devote to them, less time you might be able to even do your own job, all of those kind of pieces. So, um. But the other piece, the reason I asked that question is I was wondering if you have this kind of matrix approach even below you, which it seems like you do, as you said, like managers of managers, and that kind of mid-level is also something we're seeing a lot of struggle with because they're typically the people that have less supervisory and management experience but are asked to be put in these roles as they kind of just move up the chain, and you started to say like, There's ways you have to think about how you're actually training them to be good supervisors or managers. So I'm curious kind of, what does that mean to you? What do you, are there any specific Techniques, trainings or anything that you've learned that you might be willing to share to others about like, how do you develop middle managers? That's, you know, that's such a great question, Alex, and I, what I immediately think about is the fact that I, I'm the first one to tell my team that I don't always have all of the answers to their questions, and I'm not afraid to say that. There are Legitimately times, again 24 hours ago, I got a question from one of my direct reports at the associate director level and I said to them, I don't know, but I will find out. Uh, and sometimes the answer is not as, as clear cut as I don't know, I will find out. Sometimes it's, I don't know, that's not a skill, let's say, or something that I've experienced in the past. So I honestly don't know how to answer that, uh, and It is important, I think, for anyone at any level of management, if you're directly supervising staff. It's important for you to also remember that you need to continue to develop yourself. So, again, as I tell my staff, I don't sit in a role as a director claiming that I know it all, or that, uh, I, I don't call myself an expert. Many, you know, others would say that I am an expert, right? But I don't, I personally don't think of myself in that way because I feel that I'm always learning, right? There's always something new to learn. And so all of that to say that there, I, I know, and I have the confidence and the The, the backing that I can go to my dean and have a conversation and say, listen, this individual brought something up to me and I've never dealt with this. I've never handled it. What, what can I do? What should I do? Um, and the same just not only with within my, my team and immediately, but also beyond that, right? I, I have found it so important. So much more so with every role that I've taken with more responsibility to lean on my immediate network of folks who have been around either just as long as me or longer than I have and are in those roles as vice presidents and associate vice presidents and so on, um, and be able to have those conversations with them as well based on their experience. Uh, so it, you know, that in itself is, is so important. To, to lean on not only your immediate leadership and and those that are on your immediate team uh but also within your network that have experiences that other institutions, uh, so that you get uh a great uh perspective, uh, that is not only focused on your specific institution and, and what's happening. Within the four walls, so to speak, right, of your institution, but that are coming from other people as well. That makes perfect sense and I love that you talked about kind of the managing up approach, talking about your network. It's something I talk about a lot. In thinking about some people like to react right away, and so it seems like you don't take that approach, especially if you don't have the answer, you say, you know, hold on, let me get back to you, let me figure it out, um, especially when it comes to like managing. You know, maybe if an issue comes up or underperformance, you know, a lot of research shows that people will react in the moment and typically that's the wrong way they should have handled it. And so that kind of reaching out and thinking about what are the other options, I think is really helpful, um. And so uh I appreciate that kind of middle management piece because I know, you know, I have this conversation a lot that people might be like, I want to be a director, right? But like, I need to like, figure out some stuff. Not only do I need to learn the enrollment management pieces more about maybe now I'm in charge of travel management, or maybe I'm in charge of the students, you know, you're getting that kind of more responsibility, but there's this whole other function of like, if you're going to be a director, you need to have the supervising experience. And I feel like people sometimes struggle to get Those experiences. Um, so that's kind of why I kind of asked that question. Sure. Um, so, you know, as we kind of think about your trajectory, which is, you know, another focus of this, not only kind of what you've learned in your current role, but also talking to those people that might be, you know, an associate director and thinking they want to be a director, you know, maybe they. a director at a different type of institution and want to go to a larger institution, you know, you've, you've done, like you said, some shifting of your institutions and even some what your role going from that director of marketing to more of like director of recruitment at different institutions. So based off that kind of talk to me a little bit about. What you found the most beneficial in terms of your trajectory, you know, was there intentionality around, you know, the experiences you wanted to have before you went to places, or was it, you know, advice you've gotten from other professionals, kind of, how did you decide where you wanted to end up or what types of experiences you wanted? I have been so fortunate in my career and, and I, I think it's one of the many reasons why I love the work and I love the profession that that we're in, but I've been very fortunate that my transitions from institution to institution and roll to roll have been, have never been out of necessity. They have been because Someone told someone else like, Carlos is a good one, right? And it's so awkward for me to say that. I know it's so weird to say that because I don't, you know, I don't, I, I one of the things that I, that I definitely am not a huge fan of ever is talking a ton about myself, but, um, folks, you know, my, my circle always reminds me like you have to be your You have to be the top advocate for yourself, right? No one's gonna advocate for you better than yourself, um, but again, I've been so fortunate to have had to have a, uh, a circle of friends and, and folks that I consider mentors uh throughout my time in, in college admissions. Um, and so I've been tapped on the shoulder for the, the positions that, that I have, have come into, um, and I just take pride that, you know, what, at the places that I've been. I've gone in and I've done the work, right? And, and, and that's what I try to remind my staff consistently is that at the end of the day, If you're doing a good job and you truly enjoy what you do, so I'll flip that around because that's ultimately I think what has gotten me. So if I had to summarize it, I would say the enthusiasm and the love that I have, the passion that I have for the work that we're doing is what has gotten me to where I am today. And so I, on a regular basis, have these conversations with my staff as well in regards to what keeps you going, what's keeping you motivated, right? And uh if, if there's something that you feel like, oh, I'm not, I'm not finding the why there anymore, right? Then we have those conversations and so for me it's always a matter of taking the moments every so often to ensure that I'm still doing this for all the right reasons because at the end of the day, like I said, it's the motivation, the enthusiasm, the passion for the work that has gotten me to where I am today, um. I guess more practically and on a personal level, at this point, I'm hoping not to go anywhere else anytime soon. I shouldn't ask that question on what's next. I think what's next for me is really, you know, the, I think the question that a lot of us get during interviews, it's like, what's the 5 year or 10 year plan at this point, I'm hoping that it's really, really like a 5+ year plan, but, um, you know, and, and it's because Look, for, like I said, for as, as positive as my experiences have been making those transitions, uh, they do take a toll on you, right, in terms of thinking about the burnout and, and things like that, right? Um, so yeah, so hopefully, you know, knock on wood, and, and for all I know, one of my staff members or boss of mine may be listening to this, but I don't want to go anywhere. I don't want to leave Stevens. I don't wanna go anywhere. I'm, I'm in a really good place, uh. I know that the profession is, is in so much flux right now, um, and, but as I tell folks and I say this so, with so much pride, right? I think that our profession is the absolute best, right? Like, you have people who work in the health field and people that work in engineering or in technology, and they love what they do, right? We do too, and, and we have to take pride in that as well as a profession, I think in general, because I think the more that we find. That enthusiasm and that excitement, um, it will bring more, it will bring, I think in general, just that overall sense of why do, why would I want to leave? Why would I want to leave college admissions? Why would I want to leave this role when we have such a positive impact on students and their families. I love how you ended that because I do think there's just been so many challenges over even like the last 5 years, let's say we we're thinking about. Not only personally, professionally is bringing up like COVID, great resignation, but just in an enrollment, just thinking about anything from obviously all of the those impacts to like FAFSA delays, like, the list just goes on and on and on about all of the different kind of You know, Obstacles, let's say, that people had to go through. And so, it's sometimes hard to get back to that, why am I doing this? What is my motivation when there's just so much happening? And so I think that's just a great reminder for anyone listening and hopefully spreading that word is like getting back to that. Why? Like, why did you start in the first place? Like what made you jump into the professional admissions field, even when it was like, like you said, the tour guide, I was the tour guide, then I went into admissions, so I, I feel you on that. Um, but like, why did you start in the first place? Um, so I, I just, I just wanted to highlight that again because I just appreciate you sharing it that way, um, because I feel like, again, so much of the focus is like talking about burnout and people leaving rather than like, how can we reinvigorate. Right. And if you think about it, Alex too, and this is something that I, that I tell my, my staff, my, my team overall, is, you know, we sometimes we, we get that tunnel vision, right? Because we're so involved and we're so dedicated to the work. And yes, we read the articles about, you know, the things that are happening here and now last year with the FAFSA and whatnot, but that happens in every, every industry in every area, right? It's not just unique to college admissions, uh, school counseling. Every industry has its own independent set of problems, and those vary, but every, every area has its issues and its problems, right? So, you know, it's not unique to one area. So I, I, I always find it interesting, and I've seen this too, which I think again is unique and, and. Maybe a question for, for some of your other guests that are on, on this series, but as much as we talk about, we talk about this with our students on a regular basis as well, especially in New Jersey, where we know that we export Either the 1st or the 2nd largest number of students out of state. But what we never talk about is the fact that a good majority of those students end up coming back for one reason or another. And I say that because that also happens in our profession. There are people that leave college admissions because they think that the grass is greener on the other side and they go into something completely different and they realize it's really not and they're, they're wanting to come back. And that's something that I don't think is talked about a lot. Um, the fact that people do want to come either back into our profession or the fact that people do want to come into our profession fresh out of college or fresh out of grad school, um, to your point, because we're, we're so focused in on the great resignation and this, that and the third happening, but we don't talk about what happens in the more positive light. Um, and this is why, again, it's so important for us to remember what our why is and why we do the work that we do. Yeah, I mean, I, I, I completely agree with everything that you said. And, you know, I, I do hope maybe I will ask more people about that. Um, I think that fact about New Jersey and then obviously the profession in general makes a lot of sense and it's something to think about. Um, you know, as we kind of wrap up, I always love to ask, especially when we're talking about your journey and kind of moving up in the profession, you know, one of my goals is to inspire people, right? Remembering their why, I think is a great standpoint. But like any other advice or Feedback that you have for people that are maybe teetering on whether or not they want to be that lifer, right? Maybe they're at that 5 year mark, and you're right, it's like that ultimate decision if I'm going to be locked in for good, right? Like, what would you say to those people? What, what's any advice or recommendations you have? I think a couple of things that come to mind. 1st, 1st is, uh, the, the practicality of what is to come next, uh, when, when you're talking about the possibility of ascending to a role. So if you're an admissions counselor, you're looking to become an assistant director or assistant to associate or, or whatnot. Um, I remember, I think back to my first Uh, my first experience, right? So I went into, I went into this, again, fresh out of school thinking, all right, I've got this awesome job at my alma mater. I love my alma mater, and so I'm gonna be here and I'm gonna work at my alma mater for the rest of my life, right? Again, what did I know 15 years ago, right? I just assumed. Yeah, I've got a job and it's awesome, and I get to travel and I get to work with students and I get to talk about a place that I really love, right? And you think, again, 15 years back, I don't want to throw my age out there, but you know, in my mid-20s, right, thinking, OK, this is it, right? Um. But then having folks who saw something in me, who saw potential, um, and so all of that to say that it's important to find your mentors. I, I've mentioned mentors several times throughout our conversation today, Alex, and, and I, I, I have been so fortunate to have uh 3 to, you know, 4 people that I'm thinking right now off the top of my head that I know are my My bedrock, the foundation, when I have that conundrum that keeps me up at night, the next morning, I'm sending a text to say, hey, this, this, you know, this is happening like You know, what, what can you, what support can you offer, right? Um, so that's important. It's important to find that circle of professionals and they can be at your institution, they can be out of your institution, they can be in a, a similar or or parallel role to the one that you're in. It could be the one that you aspire to be in, uh, right? So I think of one of my mentors front and center right now as I'm talking about this, and I feel like I've always been following them. Right, because that's, that's my goal when, when, when he, when he would ask me like what do you aspire to be and I said, I want to be like you when I grow up, right? And, and, and that, with that said, it's my, I feel like it's my goal with my staff. To have them say that to me, or at least think that, right? Maybe they don't want to say it, but if they're thinking it, it's a win, right? So there's that. And then the other piece, and I'm very transparent with my staff about this as well, because I learned this through my first experience. As I was mentioning, I thought I was going to be there forever. And then it, it, it hit me, and again, the reality from, from a mentor who said to me, Carlos, sometimes in order to move up, you have to move out. And that's reality. Like, that's a real thing. Uh, if you think about it, it's very rare to see someone at one institution for a very long time, especially these days. And so being very practical and very realistic about that, and I'm, I'm very realistic about that with my team and that, and I tell them again jokingly, you're not going anywhere right now. We're talking about like way down the line, maybe when I'm on my way out, then you can leave, right? Uh, but I, and I say that jokingly, but again, that whole concept is very important, right? And so if they aspire to be The, the whatever the next level is, um, you know, they need to keep that in mind. And for me, that was, you know, that was the real thing because I did aspire to be, you know, an assistant director, uh, a director like I am now, and so, You know, going back to the question, right? What's the next plan for, for me, yeah, the next logical step for me is, you know, an AVP or a dean or whatever, you know, relative title, uh, but like I said, down the line, right? I, I feel like I still have so much to learn in, in my current role, um, and fortunately, again, I think I'm in a great position to be able to do that, and I think that's important too. Um, in terms of what you're looking for, and so I share that with those who are aspiring to take that next step is you sort of have to take a step back and look around you and see what's in your surroundings, what's in your environment, uh, in terms of being able to capitalize on. Uh, again, a mentoring relationship, learning as much as you can, developing those skill sets that you know you're going to need for whatever that next role may be. Well, I so appreciate that. I think talking about the mentor piece, like you were saying in the beginning, I think is crucial having those people, whether they're there for support and advice or just your cheerleaders, like you were saying, like, obviously you have to advocate for yourself, but sometimes just having some other people support you in that is always really helpful. And yes, I've been in a million panels or discussions around You may not be able to achieve all you want to achieve at the institution you're at, right, you might hit that glass ceiling, there might not be movement. You know, there's also research to show you'll probably get paid more if you move around. Like there's so many things and so I think sometimes there's a negative connotation in a lot of fields around that. Um, so I just appreciate you also sharing that piece that like it's OK if you need to leave, if you've left your mark, right? You obviously don't want to leave on bad terms, but what happens and sometimes I say from like a supervising standpoint, like, If I know I can't provide any more for that person, the next best thing is that they get to go do a great thing, right? Like they get to go to that next step if I can't provide it, or they want a different experience and they're gonna go get that. Um, so I, I partially take that as a compliment where you get to that point that you've taught them all that you can currently and then they're gonna go learn some more, for sure, for sure. So thank you, thank you, Carlos for being here, sharing all of your insights. I really hope that our listeners were able to gain some, you know, useful nuggets of information as they think about their journey in enrollment management, their own professional experience, or maybe just how to manage. We spent a lot of time on kind of the supervising front, so hopefully some of that was useful. So thank you so much again for being on the admitted podcast, and I hope you have a great rest of your day. Thank you all so much. Thank you, Alex.