Learning From Professionals Series- Interview with Daisy Ogunedo

In this episode of Admit It, host Alex Fronduto, Associate Teaching Professor at Northeastern University, sits down with Daisy Ogunedo, Senior Associate Director at Smith College, to discuss career growth, leadership, and the power of networking in admissions.

Daisy shares insights on empowering others, navigating upward mobility, and building meaningful professional connections or your own “Board of Directors”. She also offers valuable perspectives for professionals of color in the field, reflecting on her own experiences and providing guidance for those looking to advance in their careers.

Whether you're new to admissions or looking to take the next step, this conversation is full of actionable advice and inspiration. Tune in for an engaging discussion on what it takes to grow and thrive in higher education admissions!

Host:

Dr. Alex Fronduto
Faculty Lead, M.Ed in Higher Education Administration & Associate Teaching Professor
Northeastern University

Guest:

Daisy Ogunedo
Senior Associate Director, Smith College

Transcript

0:09

Hello and welcome to the Admitted podcast hosted by Acro. I'm your host, Alex Fronudo, associate teaching professor at Northeastern University, and we're continuing our learning from professional series. Today, I'm gonna be joined with Daisy Ogano, senior associate director at Smith College. Daisy brings a wealth of experience to the field, and in this conversation, we'll explore her professional journey, the importance of empowering others, building strong networks, and navigating upward mobility and admissions. She'll also share key insights for professionals of color in the field, offering valuable guidance on how to grow and thrive in higher education. Whether you're just starting out or looking for your next step, this episode is packed with inspiration and practical advice, and I hope you enjoy. Hello and welcome everyone. This is Doctor Alex Frondido, the co-host of the Admitted podcast through Acro. I'm so excited to be continuing our interview series of professionals throughout the field. Today I am joined by Daisy Agendo, our senior associate director of Smith College. Thanks, Daisy, for coming on today. Thanks for having me. I'm super excited to be here. Awesome. Well, as you know, we're doing a series right now interviewing a variety of professionals across the field, really looking at themes of kind of people that might be wanting to move up in leadership, people questioning whether or not they want to stay in the admission recruitment world, or just kind of thinking and learning more about what they could be doing if they're a newer person. So, I'm so excited that you're here to share some of your thoughts and advice. And so, obviously for our listeners, I would love for you to kind of just give an overview of kind of your resume, where you've been, where you are now, just so people have context before we dig into our conversation today. Absolutely, um, I joke sometimes with my colleagues that my resume feels a little bit messy sometimes, but to me, every single decision I made, I stand by it, and I think it, it made sense in the trajectory of things. Um, so when I first started in admissions, I actually Sort of had the traditional but non-traditional path of having been a tour guide an orientation leader at my college, and they actually wanted me to be an admissions officer almost immediately after I graduated, but I had it in my head of, you know, no, I'm gonna be a music teacher, because I, you know, got my degree in music and I was like, I'm gonna be a music teacher. I'm absolutely gonna do this. Um, and then I started doing, you know, private lessons for music teaching and then I realized I was like, man, I actually don't like being in the classroom. It is not for me. Um, my advisor. They're like, you don't, you don't love. I was like, No, kids are fine. It's just sometimes they're sticky and that's different. And so, um, I realized that I did love the college students a little bit more and I felt like it was kismet when a job opened up at my alma mater. And so I went the traditional path, you know, managed to get a job there. I actually walked into my interview despite having known the staff at that institution for my entire college, like adult life. Um, I walked in and I was like, I'm gonna pretend that I don't know you. I shook everybody's head. I had my padfolio and I was like, we're all gonna act like adults that have never met before. Um, and so we did it, we interviewed. I was actually shocked that I got the job, um, because I felt like it was just, I was like, this job is such a huge deal, and I felt so honored. I think I cried on the phone when my boss called me. Um, so I was like overwhelmed and just like thrilled to take this on because I just think the world of admissions has such a strong responsibility to, you know, the youth of America, essentially the youth of the world. So, um, I was. There for a while. I did work with the diversity Access team while I was there, but I was mostly seen as like the fine arts recruiter, um, because I had done so much with music and in the music program at the institution. So I kind of knew exactly, um, what they needed. So this was at UMass Lowell, um, Go River Hawks. And yeah, so, uh, I was there for a number of years and then just like a lot of people, COVID happened. Um, you know, I had moved up to being an assistant director in that office. I had shopped around a little bit, but nothing really struck me. As, um, some place that I wanted to be, I realized I was trying to figure out like, did I love admissions work or did I love admissions work at the institution that I was, I say this every time, right? It's right that 3 year, 5 year mark. A I a lifer? Am I not? I feel like every interview I do that comes up. Exactly. And then it got to the point where I was like, no, I do think I like admissions, um, and I was having conversations with, um, colleagues, and they were telling me about institutions that had job openings and I was nervous. Um, institutions because they are just really different worlds, and it was kind of in these interviews having conversations about how do you convince a student for the sticker price of a private tuition and I was like thinking back to my high school. I pay that price like, you know, there were just things that I had to learn about switching to the private world. So, you know, I had my interviews, I got a job as a, um, associate director at Stonehill College. At the time, I had made a life decision where I said I really want to do diversity um access work. I wanna work with that particular population of students. I know that I probably can't do it at Eass because we had a really strong team there and, you know, really great leadership in that and I wanted to be able to make up my own decisions, um. And also I was like, everyone in this office is great, but they're also really young too. So there's no upward mobility in this space. So I just have to kind of look elsewhere. You know, being an assistant director is great, but I know I had just got my master's, so I was like, it's time, let me look elsewhere. Um, so I got the Stonehill job and I really like love the. Work I was doing at Stone Hill, it opened up my eyes to a lot of opportunities that I wasn't getting at the state schools, um, working more closely with the CBOs because we have less applicants, so you know you have the opportunity to foster more one on one conversations with students, the CBO's, you're just overall shareholders and partners, um. And then a job opportunity came up at Providence College for a senior uh an associate director role working on the senior team, um, and so I took that on because, you know, they were looking at new partnerships we're starting different, uh, scholarship opportunities with different CBOs and their overnight was a little bit different and it was like, you know, I was at Stone Hill just right after COVID, so we were still masking and travel was strange, um, everything just felt so different and so I decided to take the opportunity at Providence, um. But then I got to a point where I was like, oh man, I really do think I want more of a leadership position, a place in which I might be a second in command, or, you know, as I'm getting ready to think about being a director or a dean at an institution, I want a place that's gonna kind of foster that. And so I started interviewing at some schools that I was like, I'm never gonna get an interview here. Like, I remember when I was, you know, when you have that like, it's been a month since you did your first like you submitted your application, you're like, they don't want me. Like there's no chance. And then I got an interview and I was like, What do you mean you want me? And then, you know, right. And then I had all these headhunters calling me and I was like, Why? Where did you get my number? Like, you know, all these like companies are reaching out to me and I was like, I'm somebody, this means something. And so, you know, I got all these great interviews and people were flying me out to different states and I was like, Mom, I'm gonna be in California. I've never been to California before. I have all these like amazing opportunities with like people. That I've looked up to as role models and they want to hire me and that's crazy. And then, you know, I got to Smith where I'm at now and I just really connected with the staff. I connected with their mission and it was also just another different thing. It was, you know, yes, it's a private institution, and I've done private for 2 years, but now it's a more selective institution and it's a women's college. So it was sharpening my skills on how to recruit for those populations of students, um. And like at this point I couldn't use my high school self to judge, you know, cause I would have made different decisions in high school. So it's just been a whirlwind and, you know, while it seems like it's a lot, I feel like every single step I took led me to where I am today. I love that you end with that because, you know, I was writing notes as you were talking and I get the idea of, right, upward mobility, public first private, you know, specific fields, right? So thinking about, like you said, maybe diversity and access or women's college, right, specific, you know, pieces, community-based organizations. Um, and that was kind of, again, upward mobility but also leadership so that it does, you know, to me it makes sense, but I get where you're coming from. I would love to like take a couple steps back, right? So. Like everyone else, I feel, you know, starts at their alma mater like you did, even though you thought you, you weren't gonna get the job. But talk to me about how that experience kind of led you to be where you are today, right? Like that initial piece, right? As you said, you might have left. Again, you get to that certain amount of years, and then you decide, are you going to continue in the field or are you not? So I would love to hear a little bit more about like what really kept driving you to continue on. Yeah, so I had done the 3 and 5 at Lowell, um, so I was like, OK, so I'm like at least gonna be a lifer at Lowell, like at least I know that much, um, and it was for me, it was starting to get involved in professional development organizations that kind of opened my eyes to the world of college because even though I on paper at some institutions wouldn't be counted as first generation, I was first generation to America. My family did get degrees. Nigeria, but for me, like the college process was so vastly different still than a student who had parents that went to school in the United States. So I really didn't know much about private schools. And for me it was like, well, you can only apply, like my family was like, you can only apply to public schools. You got the John and Abigail's Adam scholarship. This is where you're going. So I was like, OK, like, you know, I'm getting all these emails from people. I'm just gonna ignore them because I'm only going to these 5 state schools. Or whatever it was and so I needed, I needed my eyes to be open to the world of public, you know, public admission or private admissions, um, and also to school counseling because the school counseling I got at my high school I think was just very different from, you know, what a student who might be going to a boarding school is is getting. So I, you know, went to Summer Institute as we all try to do, and I went to my summer institute with NACA and You know, I was like, oh man, I really actually wanna do this. I want to be around these people because they're so fascinating and I love hearing people's stories and I always joke like I love reading applications because I get to like see people's stories and I'm like, I, I'm such a gossip. I love hearing other people's tea. I love reality. Like, oh my God, I'm learning about this student who I will probably never meet, but like I'm learning their story and I find that so fascinating. And I also loved that about meeting other admissions professionals. And so I did NAA and someone had said at a NAA meeting that I had gone to for one of the conferences because they had asked like how do you move up in, in the field and in NAA and the person had said. It all depends on who you know, and I refused that statement in that moment. I was like, I refuse to let it continue to be that way because especially as a black woman like I'm not gonna know as many people as someone who's white, um, because the the world is just gonna be very different for me and so and I said I want to see more people who look like me in these spaces in this field and but I have to be the first and I have to understand that and these are conversations I have with students all the time too because they're just like, why should I be part of this group, you know. You know, there's no other one that person that looks like me, and I'm like, sometimes you have to be the first person to do it. And so for me, I said, let me be the first. Um, and so, you know, the world of private education was opened up to me. I started talking to more people that worked at private schools and asking why they chose a private institution or, you know, and just the public rules are so different and so I was having those talks and I was like, OK. I know that the public schools, it's actually there's probably better job security sometimes and because it was in the midst of like Mount Ida was closing all these institutions and my mom was always like, are you applying to a school where it's gonna stay open tomorrow? And I was like, I think so, you know, I open the budget a little bit, right? I was like, you tell me about your fiscal responsibility and so, you know, I think Stone Hill for. Me, because it was just so welcoming in that moment where like you're dealing with just coming out of the pandemic. It's still being a young professional, still deciding if you're planning on doing this for life. And I remember my first day there, I was so stressed out that I actually just took a nap on my office floor. I was like, I was like, I, I like, I was so tense and I was like, I had, I had driven from far away cause I hadn't moved yet and like, I'm still dealing with like, your first real adult move after college. And so I was, I just like took a 22nd nap on my floor and I was like, oh my God, like I'm an associate director now. There's people are looking up to me to answer all these questions and do I have the answers? And so at first, like I always take the idea of like listening first. Um, but yeah, I also find it hard to not talk sometimes. So it's like, I listen. for a little bit and then I was like, well, here are my ideas. And then I also know people have issues of being like, well, back at my old institution, back at my old institution, finding that balance, you know, and it's like, I don't want to talk about my old institution too much, but sometimes something my old institution has done might actually be really fitting here. So just finding the right time to start talking in the right moments, I think. Yeah, I mean, you hear all the time too that people might be stuck in history and tradition, right? Like you are at least a new idea coming in, so there's like that back and forth, right? You always hear, well, this is how we've always done it, and I'm like. That doesn't mean you need to continue to do it. Change is great. Yeah, um, especially in, you know, all of the different landscapes that we've been through in the last 5+ years, thinking about, you have to be innovative, you have to be, especially thinking about potential institutions that are trying to increase enrollment or even just keep it the same enrollment, right? And so, Um, I appreciate, you know, obviously I agree with the listening aspect, but, you know, bringing in innovative ideas is just as important, um. So you talked a lot about combating the idea of, you know, it depends on who you know, right? The network piece. I'm curious now looking back, your thoughts around networking and the people you know. Do you feel like you're still now becoming more of just a mentor to other people because you felt like you didn't have those, or do you feel like you did have some mentorship at some point? Like, I would love to hear a little bit more about that piece. Yeah, I had mentorship in different ways. Um, I, someone had said to me, like, it's OK to have a mentor in your office and then mentors outside of your office, and I would reach out to being like, you know, I don't know anything about budget. Can you mentor me in this moment? And we'd have Zoom conversations or like, I want to be better at Slate. Can you walk me through how to make a Slate query? I'm still bad at it, but like, you know, reaching out to people. So I always say to new people now, like, you can always reach out to me to either be a mentor or just have a conversation. Um, and I do think it's important to network. I do think that is a big part of the work that we do because we're always at conferences, we're always meeting people on the road, but sometimes like you could just talk to someone at a college fair and you make that new connection or you can talk to a school counselor or CBO at. Their high schools or whatever it may be and that's making a new connection. I think it's bridging connections in different ways, but something I always make sure to do is uplift not only those that I work with but people that I see just doing great work around me um I think a lot of my colleagues would agree that I, they always joke like. I've been volunteered for something and they didn't say the name of who it was, but I know it was you and I was like, yeah, maybe, um, but that's cause I'm seeing, I'm looking out for people who are not the same voices that we've had in the room this entire time. I think it's important to have those voices because they have the history and they have the longevity, but I also think it's great to have those new people come into those spaces and bring their ideas and concepts. And it might be a misstep that first time, but it could also just Open their eyes to, OK, it didn't go well being on this committee, but I did enjoy the committee aspect how do I join other things? How do I do different things, um, and you know I've now learned from these people that have been doing it for a while and seeing that, how do I now take what I've learned from them and put it into my work. So I think, I think it's important to find a balance there and networking not only with people who've been in it for a minute but also finding those new fresh counselors or, you know. Current grads, um, and reaching out to them and saying like this is how I can help you and this is what I think you'd be great at. Yeah, I love, I mean, to me, that's all about empowerment, right? Like there are people that are just going to sit back and, you know, don't have the ability to advocate for themselves. And we're seeing that a lot more in the, you know, as we put in air quotes that no one can see, but newer generations, right? That's a lot of the things you're talking about is just understanding what the new idea of work is. And so, you know, I think you bring up a lot of great points about just thinking about. If someone's been in the field for 15 years, it's not the same field. And if people aren't getting over that and what the idea of that is, it's gonna be really hard for those people. And how else are you going to know what the field is if you're not talking to the people that are now experiencing it for the first time. So I, I, I so appreciate you doing that for people because I don't think everyone does. So I just want to commend you on that first. And sometimes I'll have conversations with people and say you've been in the field since I've been alive. These newer counselors. They are not thinking the same, they're not even thinking the same way I do, so they're definitely not thinking, you know, when I talked to some offices that are intergenerational, and they're like, there's 4 generations of admissions officers in here and I'm like, so how are the people from the 1st generation talking to the 4th generation because that's a whole different field. Yeah, I mean, I feel like there's a lot of conversations around that and I think there's still more coming out as we continue to think as generations keep, you know, obviously growing up and so I think that will be interesting for us to continue to look at. And I wanted to think not only about empowering obviously the younger generation, let's say. I know you brought up also obviously identifying as a black woman that you felt that there weren't as many people or opportunities at the time as you were moving up. Yeah. In addition to you just empowering other people, like, what spaces or areas or committees or anything have you done or been a part of that you felt like it helped you to really advocate for others or maybe even, you know, lift yourself up and in some ways. It's funny because when I first started in the field, I could count on one hand how many black women I knew in admissions in NACA or just the New England area. And it's a funny little anecdote that I throw in all the time, but my therapist and I, when we first started talking, she said, Oh, I have a cousin that works in admissions in New England, and I said to her, I know who you're, I probably know who your cousin is. And she, she thought I was joking until she let slip something and I was like, your cousin is this person, they work at this institution, and they, she was shocked and I was like, that's what I mean by there's so few of us. And so for me it was, um, NiAak was great and I think it definitely opened me up to a lot of different institutions that I didn't know before, but I found a lot of my family, um, as I call them now in neck back, um, the New England or sorry, the Northeast, uh, Consortium bridging access. To college and I found it difficult first with that organization at the time because they weren't open to, they're open to public schools being non-voting members, which is tough because public schools are not always gonna want you to go to a space like that. So I wasn't able to go to neck back during my first couple of years in admissions, but when I started working at Stone Hill, I was able to be part of it and I was like, this is where everyone is. This is where you've been this entire time. Um, and now, so what I've been trying to do is bridging. The gap between neck back and having a lot of those members who maybe weren't getting recognition in NAA and bringing them forward and putting their names up for um committee spaces or awards or things like that, um, just so that they can get the recognition because they're also doing a lot of great work. They probably just don't see themselves in the YAC Act. So you know it, it, it was finding family in that and bringing them to this space um recently since I started joining, since I came to Smith, I'm now part of an organization called Aberfoils. Which is like a storied organization only for it's, it's association for black admissions officers and financial aid officers at the Ivy League and sister schools. It could not be more specific. I have not heard of it, right? And it's not for black admissions officers anymore. It's for, you know, really for officers of color access officers, etc. um, but it's really like I feel like sometimes it's like a secret society, it's not, and there's a lot of us. That are in it, um, and so I found a lot more people that in that space too, but I think that honestly branching out to NACA when I was on NACA and I was, I, um, was one of the last assembly delegates before they were like, we're getting rid of it. Um, my assembly delegaacy term was a lot because it was like we started out with the DOJ vote and then it was, it was COVID and then it was and I was like, OK, great, so many things happened in this 3 years of What I was told was gonna be a super easy committee to be part of in me. I was like, it's not actually. Um, and so branching out to, you know, the national organizations also, you know, I am also the kind of person, even though I say I'm an introvert, um, I joke with some friends like we're or they call them ambiverts now. If I'm in a workspace, I can be the most extroverted person you'll ever meet, and I will chat with you. And by the time we're done, I have your number. I met someone at the airport and I was like, Hey, are you, are you going to a Quest bridge event? And she was like, Yeah. And I was like, me too. And then we got dinner together and now whenever I'm in your area, we text. So and this is at the airport getting onto our flight to wherever we were going. So I was like, she looks familiar. I'm gonna ask and like you're wearing like a Johns Hopkins sweater or something. So I always ask, um, because I feel like networking is definitely one of my strengths and Um, so for me it was just being able to network in that way and I also find that like it makes it easier to kind of, I'll say, you know, I see these really great young professionals that are doing great work here, um, or working with me. I'm gonna then say, hey, I have this. Friend that will connect you with you in a great way who works in the field as well and that has led to people just connecting even more so I just like to bridge that. I want to always be that bridge for people, um, and just also being that space and through Nakak I was able to start, it was around um George Floyd after that happened, um, you know, we had had conversations about just having a space for people of color to just talk on Zoom. Um, and so you know we brought that into, I was, I think I was the chair of the member engagement committee at that time and so we started doing just affinity spaces, um, and just having the opportunity to talk to other people that looked like you who had the same representation. So we had the LGBTQ plus affinity space, the black affinity space, Asian American, and then we brought those affinity spaces to AMC, the. Meeting and conference for NACA and then we started doing it at Summer Institute as well and I hope there's some longevity in that and just giving people the opportunity to kind of get to meet with one another because we're usually so siloed off into our own institutions that we don't really ever get that space to kind of connect and I think it's really important even if it's just for an hour once every quarter to just talk, you know, right, and like you said, like. Who knows what will be happening at that specific point, but it kind of is that unstructured atmosphere that will provide essentially topics because people are dealing with things, something's gonna come up and so yeah, you know, I appreciate you kind of talking about all those professional development opportunities I think. That piece is so crucial for people to feel involved. You just talked about siloing and that was one of the first things that came up, even when you're just doing the work and the same work and especially if you're an entry level counselor, like on the road for 12 weeks and then, you know, 6 to 8 weeks in the spring like. And then doing it again for a 2nd year and again for a 3rd year, like right, right. And so, uh, you know, what are those other ways to keep people motivated, right? So, you know, it helps me think about kind of my next set of questions is, as you've moved up, now you're in leadership roles, that was something you were looking for, you needed upward mobility. So thinking about those types of things of like, how do you motivate staff? How do you keep them on target if it's, you know, with travel or with application numbers or deposits. So I'm curious, like your philosophy around just managing. Yeah, I take managing very seriously because I think it's, I, and I honestly think this comes back to my teacher background of just, I always hated that what was it, the one thing about the monkey in the tree and the giraffe that couldn't climb. I was like, this, this, this analogy doesn't even make sense because everyone learns at a different pace. And so it's really taking the time to get to know the people that you're working with and yes, you can. Can't know every single nuance, but getting a general idea of who they are, but also asking what they need from you on top of finding out, letting them know what you need from them. Um, I like to come from a place of clarity and just making sure that I am being as candid as I possibly can, but also letting them know in moments where I can't be candid, saying I can't be candid about this right now and it's not that I don't want to, but there's other reasons behind it, but I'm letting you know that I am supporting you 100%. Um, I had a conversation with, you know, I had to have a new hire, um, as we all do at some point I was like I was like, yeah, since being at Smith, who was the second person I've hired. Yeah, my last interview was like, this is the first time in 4 years I have a full staff, and I was like, yay. Um, I was like, is any office fully stacked right now? Um, so I was having this conversation with this, um, who we ended up hiring in my office. Um, we were having this conversation and she was like, what is it about the work that you love? And I said, I love the fact that it changes every year. And while fundamentally it's the 12 weeks of travel, the 6 to 8 weeks, the reading for X amount of time, there's always something different happening and that might just be as simple as the students are different, but In the last couple of years, even since I've hired her, you know, I said everything is different, and I said, you know, we were fine, we just dealt with affirmative action, so we're, we're OK with everything that's happening here. And then something new happened and it was just like last year was financial aid and now this year is, you know, all the executive orders that are coming out. So I was like, everything is different all the time. So you always have to stay on your toes and that's. What I love about the job that sometimes stresses other people out that it's not the same thing every year. And I said, if it's not for you to deal with that, you'll know pretty quickly. Like you'll know after a year I can't deal with one more change and there might be other avenues or you can thrive in those situations. Um, so it's constantly trying to. Have those open conversations, talk about my trajectory, telling them about, you know, professional development opportunities that they can get involved in to just not only expand the work that they're doing at our institution, but also, you know, looking at their future and thinking about that. And so, and I always say like, you know, you're talking about getting your degrees, you want to get your master's degree, let's talk about what, you know, how my master's program it was like, what master's programs you can look into and you know, what worked for me, what didn't. Work for me. And then, you know, I've had people say, I want to get my doctorate in my office too and just talking through them about what the doctorate process is like. I am not done. I will be done at some point. I can't wait. Yeah, that dissertation has to change though, because again, the world changed in the world that I wanted to do it in and someone wrote the papers that I wanted to write and I was like, oh no. Um, so, you know, it's just that constant change, and I thrive on change, and I know some people do. So it's taking the care and making sure that my team feels heard, specifically the three people that I work with right now, um, making sure that they know that their voices are heard, they might, and also being aware that sometimes you can get what you want, sometimes, you know, and it's not that I'm not fighting for you or I'm not fighting to get your words heard, but, um, making sure that they know that I'm supporting them 100% as best as I can, but also in moments where. Where things might not be going great, having that conversation to find out why it's not going great, what can we do to help you um figure that out? Is it something that's personal? Is it something that's your work, you know, is there a balance that we can find? Is there something that I can do for you, um, to make sure that your needs are met? Because I don't want my staff to say, you know, I've been here for a year and just leave. Um, I had a staff member who was scared. They had been here for like 6, they had been in my institution for 6 months and they came up to me, they called me actually it was during, um, annual meeting and conference and they were like, their voice is shaking. I was like, what's going on? And she was like, I'm so scared to tell you this, but my dream job in another field just came up and, you know, they're, they're offering it or like they're they want to interview me. And I was like, OK, that's great. I was like, what can I do to help you? And she was just like, What do you mean? She was like, Wait, you're not mad at me? And I was like, No, of course not. This is your dream job. I'm not gonna hold you back from that. We're gonna figure out what we need to do. It's not the end of the world. And then when she got the job, she came in like shaking and like upset because she thought I was gonna be like, pack your bags and get out of here. Like, and I was like, oh my God, congratulations. Like that's amazing. I'm so excited for you. We will always find someone to continue to do the work, and I'm not gonna be upset about you at you for it. Um, and I always just say, you know, I tell my team, like, let me know if there's something that I can do that I can do better. And I always ask. For feedback, even if it's like if we're doing a committee review at the end of committee, because committee can be really stressful for reading. And at the end of committee, I'm just like, hey, how did everyone feel about that? You know, do you think the decisions that we made, do you have a, do you have anything that you want to say about a student and come back? And I had someone like a few times, people will come back to me and said, hey, I didn't, you know, love the way this decision went. Can we look at this application again? And you know, we'll just have that moment. I just want them to feel heard is, is the most important thing. Yeah, and that was exactly it goes back to your idea before when you were talking about trying to make sure you're listening, right? And then, you know, obviously still speak, so. I mean, I feel like you just said a lot in terms of obviously coaching and being happy for people moving up or getting their dream job, right? Why would you hold them back? They're not gonna be excited about the job they're currently in, so it doesn't do anyone good. And I think This also goes back to what you were saying around kind of that upward mobility piece, right? And so, I wonder if you could talk a little bit about your thought around, when do you find that it's almost your job to help people figure out what that next step might be, whether it's at your institution or not, because I do feel like there's that. Give and take that, you know, supervisors are like, well, I don't want people to leave because I don't want the extra work. And then they like kind of force people in their job and then you're like, well, if they're not happy, then they're producing. Right. And so like, then they're gonna potentially quit and then you're still in the same spot. So like, how have you dealt with that? Again, this person came to you, so have you had any other instances that you just kind of recognize that it might be a time for them to move up or something like that? And I think it's super important to have that conversation with people. I, as I said, I, you probably think I was the most gung ho admissions counselor ever, but at one point when I was in my admissions world, I was having a conversation, like I asked my dean, I was like, can we go get lunch? I just want to talk. To you about, you know, your trajectory and where you see me going, like where, you know, where my pathways. Um, so I always encouraged like if, if my staff just wants to have that conversation offline, but even just in our, you know, our daily one on ones, I'll say. I'm helping, like we're doing this because not only will it benefit the work that you're doing at this institution, but in your future, you know, letting you like getting you the tools that you need for your future if you are ever in my seat, or, you know, there's, there's, I can see you leaning in one direction in the work. Do you want to talk about making this your specific, you know, position? Like I had I think it was at Stonehill where I had someone who actually wasn't hired to be part of like the diversity team, um, and, but I saw the passion for it and I said, OK, I'm seeing your passion for international students, your your passion for working with diverse students and backgrounds. Let's get you on this team and you're gonna be the person that is doing all of the one on one work with the student organization that we're working with and this other person's gonna work on logistics because I've seen that they do really well in logistics and giving them. The autonomy to make decisions in those spaces, still feeling comfortable enough to come to me and, you know, ask questions if they need to because I'm always gonna be probably the bigger idea person, um, and, you know, troubleshooting, but giving them the tools that they feel that they need, um, to be, as we called it, being a professional problem solver, um, that are not needing to like, have to go to your boss all the time, like coming up and saying, I have a problem and feeling like you have the tools and I've hopefully given you the tools. To say, OK, there's a problem. This is my solution. I'm gonna come up with it, then I'm gonna run it by Daisy and say, what do you think of this? So that when you end up in a leadership role, you feel as if you can do it on your own without having to go to your dean every two seconds be like, hey, hey, another question, like, hey, uh, just say, you know, feeling confident and, you know, working on overall confidence I think is super important. But then sometimes you have to say to yourself, OK, this person has been in this role for XYZ years. Are they at the point where it's time for them to start looking for another position, either somewhere else within our like or looking to get promoted within our office? What is it that they want to do? And kind of having that yearly check-in with the people that you supervise of what they want to do next. And I love the people who are always like, I'm gonna be here forever. I'm gonna be at this institution until I'm like, OK. Let's think about how the makeup of the institution kind of works. Are is there space for you in this office to continue to move up because are the associate directors all in their 30s and they are not planning on going anywhere because they've hit their 10 years and they know that they're gonna stay at this institution because they love it. Um, you know, is there, is there gonna be space for you to move up in that, or do you have to look either for a similar institution or change something up completely different, you know, go, go to a different space. Um, I had a supervisor once who had just done nothing but admissions for so many years, and then we started having the conversation of like, you love working with the students and you love being one on one with them. You're not getting as much of that doing admissions work. Have you thought about working at a CBO? What is The idea of like working at a community-based organization, um, and that was something that they were like interested in. They were like, I could still keep doing admissions work, but if I really want to get that boots on the ground work with students, maybe it is best for me to go to school counseling or work for a community-based organization. Because I said to them very bluntly, the higher you go in the field of admissions, the less you actually spend with students. And you, you feel blessed in the few moments that you do get to spend with the students because you're Like, this is why I do this work. Right that reminder.-- When-- you're in like a 3 hour board meeting and you're like, why do I do this again? And then you're like, OK, I saw that one student one time in the hallway and they said hi and that was enough for me. But if you want that, if you want that validation all the time, maybe going up to be a senior associate is not the right choice for you and you need to go look elsewhere and that's totally OK. And just feeling comfortable going. I think that you should feel you should be able to feel comfortable talking to your supervisor about it. If you can't, that's tough, and I feel really bad for people in those situations and I've been in situations similar, but sometimes I've had a boss once that was like, oh, not in admissions in the music world, but they were like, oh, this other place wants you, great, go. And I was like, oh, OK, OK. And so I did look for another job, but I was like so strange that you don't value your stars essentially in your office to do best, do the best for them. I mean, that makes perfect sense and yeah, right, there's that balance, right? Like you want to be cultivating, you know, great people and motivating them and empowering them, but you know, you also have to be realistic, like you said, like, what is the makeup and the framework? And so. For you, like, yeah, pay, you know, like you said, even like location or types of abilities, because if they stay at the same place, unless they're going to be a director there, and if they don't have all different types of experiences, it might actually hurt them, right? It actually could be a big issue as you move up if you don't have those other experiences. Um, and so, obviously, as you've moved up, you've had a variety of leaders and you've had to adapt to new institution types, new leaders. Kind of how did you navigate that space? So less about what we were talking about earlier of like how did you do it as like, what did you do for your staff, but like, what did you have to do as an individual now to adapt to a variety of different leaderships or institutional styles and changes and like, what advice do you have for people? Um, and I talk about vastly different, um, you know, working in a predominantly women run office now is so, so different from working at like division one athletic schools where things and priorities are going to be different, um, working at a women's college as a whole, um, it, it is, it has been really, really different in that sense, but also there's still some similarity so grasping onto that. Um, I think a big thing that you'll always notice, and I always notice that there's always that one person who's like, well, this is how we've always done it. And you're like, man, so you're the person I'm gonna have to get through first. You know, you're the first. Other people are willing to change, um, but maybe not. But what I, you know, what I always say to people that I would do is like I spend that first couple of weeks just listening to learn more about the institution. And learn more about the office as a whole. I try to learn about the office first and then like the institution obviously is coming in, but like let me learn about the office first because these are the people I see every day, um, and just try to figure out, you know, how that office works and how I will fit into that office, what their needs are because I'll ask that in the interview, like, what are your needs for this person taking on this job? And so I already kind of have that at the forefront, but then it's like actually seeing on, on the back end what It is what they actually need and trying to figure out, you know, what those gaps are and how I can fill it, and if I can fill it at all. Sometimes it's like, oh, I don't actually think I'm qualified and maybe there needs to be another hire, um, to take on that work. Um, and so it's just like figuring out where that is, where I can find, fill in those gaps, and then filling out, figuring out where I can, my ideas can start coming forward. So I always say, I try to find not the person who is always like this is how we've always done it, finding the people that are more willing to change, and then pulling them into your circle and saying, OK, this is what I want to do. What do you think about this? This is how it's fleshed out, coming up with the idea, and then proposing it to the people who might not be a little bit more reticent. Um, and so that has always really helped me. Like one of the first things I've done because I saw how great counselor advisory boards had worked at other institutions and things like that, and I said, I'd love to do a counselor advisory board specific to the work that I'm doing here. You know, what do you, this is how I would lay it out, this is how I, you know, I had someone present on it and I was like, this is the presentation I saw at NACA. I think it would be great. This is XYZ, how I think it would work with our institution to Adjust that model and they were like, OK, let's try it, and then it worked out and it was like you have in making sure that you have the data that will back you up too as you're coming up with these new proposals. Um, and I also just find every institution, it's like being the new kid at school, um. And oddly, as a kid, I moved a lot, so I was used to being the new kid at school. So it's like, OK, so how do I figure out what lunch table to sit at, you know, and like, who's gonna be my partner in this work? Um, I think is the first thing I always look for who's gonna be my partner in this work and then knowing. That those partners, not only are you gonna support them in what they're doing but also that they're gonna support you in what you're doing, um, but yeah, I think it's really filling those gaps, finding your partners, just being prepared for anything that will be shockingly different, um, I think honestly. Just even the way my admission spiel on the road has had to change based off of the institutions I've worked at because I was like, man, I went from a public school to Catholic schools to a woman's college, and those could not be, and I was like, that's helping my resume because people are gonna be like, how did you do all three of those things because they're so vastly different. But I think it just made me, it just made me better as a professional as a whole, I think. Yeah, I mean, it it is gonna be a different skill set, right? Sometimes you feel like, oh, if you go to the same type of institutions, same scripting, same value proposition, especially like if it's like just general private to private, you know. But yeah, you've had to learn a lot of different skills and traits just between those experiences. And I think Going back to the idea of, I feel like you almost described power of influence, right? Like you know where you're gonna have to navigate to get what you need, right? Because ultimately, depending on your role, especially as you keep moving up, right, change management is a big piece and like how are you gonna get that buy in and, you know, we know that relationship building is gonna be a big step into that buy-in process. So I think you Kind of explain that awesome so that other people can kind of think about that as they potentially navigate a new institution, a new team, what, you know, whatever. Um, so, you know, as we start kind of wrapping up. I always like to end these types of interviews with kind of actionable advice. So pretend you're talking to the listeners, they're potentially mid-level, kind of making those decisions. They've kind of already decided they love admission, right? But they're kind of thinking about what their next steps should be, like, what should they do? Yeah, I will be remiss if I do not bring up imposter syndrome. Um, as I said, I, I, I had to take a stress nap after my first associate position because I said to myself, am I capable of doing this? Um, and I think it was super important to talk myself off the ledge. Like they hired me for a reason. I know what I have done, you know, and I always, what I like to do is at the end of the year, write a list of all the things that I've done so that I can say to myself, I accomplished, yes, goal setting is great, but I don't like the HR goal setting, I think is very different from your own personal goal setting, um, making up your own goals, figuring out what you've done, and yeah, you might have missed something, but you did something else that's different, um. Telling your imposter self that you do belong here. There's a reason that you are here in this space, they saw it in you, you just have to see it in yourself, um, and not judging, you know, the same way that when we say to students, we're not reading, we're not comparing you to another applicant, we're just looking at you based on your own. Um, based on your own criteria, do the same for yourself. Don't compare yourself to other people in your office or other people in other offices that might be doing the same work. You know, you're coming with a different set of skills, a different, you know, background. There's a reason you're here. Believe in that reason, believe in your mission. And sometimes if it doesn't work out, you'll know, and you're just like, no, this is not it for me. I really either have to take a step back or re-evaluate, take that time to really have. Those conversations with yourself. And then also, you know, something that has been brought up a few times I feel in the admissions world, um, I heard from Vern Granger, but having your own board of admissions or like your own board of directors. So yeah, having that people, those people that you can talk to and walk through those scenarios. I actually have a group chat that we call board of directors and so it's like, am I crazy to think this? And they'll either tell me, yes, what are you thinking, or no. This is what we're experiencing having those people that you can reach out to. I'm always willing to be on people's board of directors and say, hey friend, that is nuts that where you're stressing out for no reason or this is what I would have done if I were in, you know, your space, etc. etc. Um, so I think having that check in with yourself, having that check-in with others around you, I think is super. Super important and just enjoying the adventure honestly because it is an adventure sending out all those resumes and you know, applying for those different jobs. It just, you know, it, it, it's never the same. It's always gonna be different every interview is gonna be different, um, and even the process of getting a no is part of that adventure or not hearing back is part the not hearing back. I think we've all like you guys just tell these people that they're not getting the job like. Just let them know, um, or like, let HR send out a generic email if we've moved on. I don't know why HR offices are against it, but it's all part of that journey and you will get to where you are supposed to be at the very end of it. Um, it might not be in the straight and narrow path that you've thought of. It might not be on that 5 year, 10 year goal. Um, it could be very wiggly and, um, that's OK. That's, that's still, that's still great. You still got there. That's what really matters. That's such a good way to end this. I love that was so like positive. I love it. I'm gonna go find my own board of directors right now. So, well, Daisy, thank you so much for being on the podcast. Thank you for sharing all of these insights, and I hope our listeners enjoy it. Thank you.