Raising the Flipping Bar with Derek Marlin

Wholesaling vs. Flipping: Which Strategy Maximizes Your ROI?

• Derek Marlin • Season 3 • Episode 49

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In this episode, we're diving deep into the world of wholesaling with insights straight from my personal experience. I'll explore the nuances, challenges, and strategies behind successful wholesaling in real estate. Whether you're flipping properties or scaling your portfolio, understanding wholesaling is a game-changer.

What You’ll Learn in This Episode

  • The key difference between flipping and wholesaling: Discover how each strategy works and when to choose one over the other.
  • Maximizing profits through smart decision-making: Learn how to analyze deals and decide whether to wholesale or flip based on ROI and market conditions.
  • The importance of transparency in wholesaling: Why honest communication with buyers and sellers is critical for long-term success.
  • Tools and strategies for building a cash buyer list: How software like PropStream and InvestorLift can revolutionize your deal flow.
  • Managing cash flow constraints in your business: Practical tips for handling capital and ensuring consistent deal volume.


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Connect with Derek Marlin and ELEVATION!

Derek on LinkedIn: http://www.linkedin.com/in/derekmarlin

ELEVATION’s website: https://elevationinvest.com/

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Welcome to Raising the Flipping Bar, the go to podcast for aspiring and seasoned real estate investors. I'm your host, Derek Marlin, and I'm the CEO of Elevation. We're a real estate investment company based right here in Denver, Colorado. We'll dive into smart investment strategies, market insights, and essential tips for scaling your real estate ventures. Whether you're making your first investment or your hundredth investment, this podcast is your blueprint for success in the ever evolving world of real estate investing. Get ready to elevate your real estate game and begin your journey with me. Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Raising the Flipping Bar. I'm your host, Derek Marlin. And today's episode is going to be kind of a funky play on words. Obviously it's called Raising the Flipping Bar, but we're going to talk about wholesaling. It's an underestimated and really underrated aspect of building a successful real estate investment business. Even though the title of the podcast is Raising the Flipping Bar, we're going to talk about wholesaling today. And the reason is, is it's really a key and an important part of an overall successful real estate business. So let's dive right in. You know, in preparing for today's episode, I was thinking back about a time when we were looking at a deal and really trying to figure out wholesale versus flip. And so we've got a property and we'll have it in our show notes and it was on Elm Court. And so I'll give you some, some stats about this property, and then you can kind of tell me whether you would have wholesale there or whether you would have kept it as a flip. And so it was this really great property in the Sunnyside neighborhood of Denver, and the address is. 4619 Elm Court. It was kind of the, gosh, it was the good old days. I look back at my deal analysis spreadsheet. and it was purchased in October of 2021. We did rehab over the holidays. always remember that ideally you never want to list a property between Thanksgiving and honestly the first two weeks of January, you want to get totally through the holidays. So we did our rehab through them and then we listed it in mid January and then we sold it in February. So it was a 550, 000 purchase. It was 127, 000 in rehab and the end sales price point was 825, 000. Again, kind of think back to context. It was the first quarter of 2022 when we listed it. So it was still crazy time. we went for 25, 000 over asking. which sounds so like gluttonous, but like that actually wasn't a lot of money for over asking at that period of time. our metrics was 739 per day in net profit. It was a 14. 3 percent ROI. And it was, as far as in total net profit, we made 103 grand. So I was looking back at that. And the other thing to remind me of the good old days is my interest rate. So we bought this one with our business line of credit, and I was only paying 4 percent interest. So obviously like every deal was just so much fatter compared to the rates that we're having to pay now. So I wasn't using hard money at the time, just using an internal line of credit purchase. So it was a good deal. But the wholesaler that we bought this deal from, because this was in a transitionary period for my company where we had an acquisitions manager, but we didn't have a team like we do at Elevation. So we were still buying from wholesalers every once in a while. And the wholesaler made 55, 000 on this deal. And I'm sure a lot of people are like, Holy crap, that's a lot of money. Some people are probably saying that's too much money. that's a different episode. I will disagree with you. We are in a free market system. And as long as it deals good for me as the end buyer, then I don't care if that person made a hundred thousand dollars. but in looking at it, okay, so this guy made. 55 grand in two weeks. It took us about four months to make 103, 000. And so I think that's definitely a big debate of should you wholesale a deal like that? Or should you keep it? In theory, he could have kept it and he would have made over 150 grand. So obviously a lot of money. but. It's the term that we always like to use, which is the velocity of money. So shout out to Mark at Colorado Home Buyers. He was the, another great investor. And I think that we like to work with people like that. and we'll get into kind of how we classify folks, but I wanted to set the stage on not only just a great deal, but like really thinking through the lens of when to wholesale versus when to flip. So I want to backtrack a little bit. I want to truly define the difference between flipping and wholesaling. So obviously flipping is when you purchase the property. you could have any different method of how you source it. But essentially you're purchasing it, you're fixing it up yourself, and you're selling it on the back end. We like to call that property redevelopment. but you've got to have the capital to do the deal. You've got to have the construction experience. You've got to have the contractors and the crews. Versus a wholesale is when you're still going through and doing the same marketing. You're finding that same ideally motivated seller or MLS listing of a person wanting to sell their property. And you get that property under contract. You're putting down your earnest money, which on average in Denver Metro is like 5, 000 and 10, 000. And then you are doing one of two things. Typically, there's lots of different ways you can wholesale, but like regular mainstream is you then either Close on the property and need the funds to close. And then you resell it to the other investor and make a profit spread. but you're not flipping the house that is called a double close. I personally don't love that style because you're essentially paying closing costs two different times. And so with that, there's obviously some certainty to close, which is nice. but again, you're paying, that's like four or 5, 000 bucks in, in wholesale world. And so that's really cutting in your margins. What we like to do is what's called the assignment clause. And that means whether it's an off market deal. Or an on market deal, we put a clause in our contracts that say we have the ability to assign our interest in this contract to another end buyer. And we tell people like that up front. I think a lot of wholesalers get a bad rap because they try to do it super covertly. and the way that we exit a property is one of three ways. Either, We're going to flip it ourselves. We're going to flip it with a client. Either we're going to do the work or we're going to do a joint venture, or we've got our Elevation Alumni Academy or people that are in our sphere and they're buying our deals. So it's not just random people off the street. So we have three ways that we essentially take down a property and we tell that to people up front and we lose deals. I don't know if I could even give you a hard percentage of the deals that we lose because people say, screw you, you're a wholesaler. Okay, fine. Sell the property to somebody else. so we do lose a little bit of deals. But wholesaling is just doing much quicker, amounts of business. And wholesaling profits on average are between 5, of net profit. Obviously, if the deal's a little thinner or maybe it's a less expensive property, like a condo, you're going to probably make in the 5, 000 range in Metro Denver. If it's a single family house and there's good profit to be had with other folks, you're going to average between 15, 000 and 20, 000. sometimes you can make more, obviously you've got to have a great deal. One of my favorite terms, that an early investor that I work with is he had the term called leave meat on the bone. Like you can't squeeze every penny out of a deal or else that profitability is not there and your end buyer is going to get burned and they're not going to do business with you again. So again, just wanted to set the stage for like, what is a wholesale versus what is a flip? And so I want to also talk about the difference of what we call quote unquote large versus small wholesalers. we actually consider ourselves a smaller wholesaler. it's not the core focus of what we do, but it is a definite division of our company and it's something we're trying to grow. And the reason I say we're all small wholesalers is because we also do flipping. I think folks that are, there's two or three large companies out there. some of them are, in a number of different markets, not just Colorado and all they do is wholesale. And I think the tough thing that sadly they give a lot of other people a bad rap in our industry is A, they don't understand how to properly budget rehab and B, every dime is trying to be squeezed out of a deal. And so people buying those deals aren't getting the best deal. typically. Again, there's always outliers. I'm sure people have worked with some of the big wholesalers and had a good deal. but we've heard from through the grapevine that they only have about a 30 percent repeat business rate. And so that's because every penny is getting squealed, squeezed into the wholesale side of the equation instead of the end investor, which to me, if you just think about who's taking risk and who's putting their money where their mouth is, like to me, it's the person actually flipping the property. So I think you have to categorize between the two. And then the other thing is when you're building your business and trying to decide, do you wholesale versus do you flip is you got to think about cashflow. So maybe you do cosmetic flips and they're taking one to two months to finish the project and to relist it and sell on the backend. That's pretty consistent. That helps with cashflow. But in Denver, the market is competitive enough that we don't get a lot of cosmetic flips. we just get outbid by typically, homeowners or when the rental market was really hot, we would get. So it's really all about, like, what's the amount that you want to cashflow within a specific deal. And then that kind of leads into the next point, which is volume. How much volume do you want to do? and a lot of that is actually dictated by what I call capital constraints, meaning how much money do you have available to you? and so that like, let's say you get 10 phenomenal deals all at once. And then a Denver Metro market, that's probably needing to have seven or 8 million worth of capital on hand to take those deals down. Well, not everybody has access to that. and so really it's like, what's your constraint of capital? So when people first get started, a lot of times people have no money to flip a house, so they have to wholesale. sometimes those people even have to borrow the earnest money deposits because they don't have, like right now. we're recording this will drop in January. So we're in between four different wholesales. So I have I think about 38, 000 out in company capital right now as earnest money deposits on these four different deals. So obviously when the deals close, you get that money back, but you have to have that money. then on top of that, if you're looking at doing a flip. And it's costing you between 100, 000 and 200, 000 of your contribution if you're borrowing from a private lender or a hard money lender. Like that's real money that you've got to have. So, those two things might dictate whether you wholesale versus whether you flip yourself. And then the other thing I was thinking about is the construction constraints. And by that, do you have a, the knowledge to actually run a flip or do you have access to cruise? And so those are some of the things you got to take into account when you decide, do you want a wholesale versus do you want to flip or? Again, do property redevelopment as we call it. So I want to give you guys a little bit of a framework of like, what is our journey as a company been and really our approach to wholesaling? Because as we get into the disposition side, that's going to be our end focus for today's episode. I want to set the stage properly and have the framework of what is it overall? What are we doing as a company? And then how we're working on dispositions. So if we look at Elevation's journey from the wholesale perspective, for those of you guys that have listened for a while, we started our real kind of full time day to day investment business in 2015. started rentals in 09, but really started flipping in 15 and quit my corporate jobs and went into this full time. And so on average, our first couple of years, was 2015 and 16, I was doing it all myself. So I didn't really wholesale anything. I just kept every deal that I could find. Or on average, I would buy from other wholesalers, probably maybe two deals a year. And then getting into 2018 through 2020, that's when we had an acquisitions person join our team and I had a project manager join our team. So I was able to do on average between five and six wholesale deals a year. And that was the perfect function of, I only had a certain amount of company capital. and you don't want to shut off the marketing machine. And so once we got a deal on average, we would keep three deals and we would wholesale one of them. And I would do that, once a quarter, let's say to keep the math simple. I think a lot of people think like, Oh, well, if you're going to wholesale it, you're going to cherry pick the best ones for yourself and you're going to sell a crappy deal to somebody else. that shouldn't be the case. And for us, it definitely wasn't the case. obviously if I had two properties and I'm going to maybe keep the good one for myself. You should still be selling another good deal to somebody else. I would also argue, and we've actually done this on our last two flips, the deals that we wholesaled will net more profit than the two current deals that I have, right now as a company, but that's because our capital was constrained. And I wanted to bring on these two really great investors as end cash buyers and get them really good deals. And so there'll be clamoring for more deals from us. And then because we have a team at elevation, my team gets to list it on the backend. So to me, it was a smart kind of win win. we then got into the super hot kind of post COVID market of 2021 and 2022. And this is something that I totally kick myself for. Again, I don't think people talk about, I'm not going to call it a failure because we did. very well financially. but I got spoiled. I shut off the marketing machine. So we were only doing between eight and 10 flips a year in 21 and 22, but that's because we would conservatively underwrite each deal. Meaning our analysis was pretty low on what we thought we could sell it for. going back to my sports background and like we were always underwriting it to be a double, but then with where the market was, every property ran up. It sold for over asking it was the crazy buying frenzy. So every deal we did in 21 and at least the first three quarters of 22 was a hundred thousand dollars in net profit. And so I just I, we had a little bit of staff turnover and I just didn't keep marketing. I was like, why should I spend a couple thousand bucks a month, to market when we got these home run deals? I should have, like we would have been actually a lot further off today. and so where we've retooled things is 23 and currently in 2024, um, this episode will come out in early 25 is we've rebuilt our model and that's from a staffing perspective and a business philosophy perspective. And so what we have now is we actually call it straight up transparent wholesaling. To me, that term is very, very important. Like we're telling people what we make. I've only had one person who had beef with how much we made on one deal. We made the 35, 000 acquisition fee. but it was a really good property and there's significant profit margin and spread in there for the person, who's going to buy this deal. And so it's still going to be a phenomenal deal. And so for me, what we're doing now is we're spending a lot more money on marketing. And like I said, I, I've shut off the marketing funnel and the marketing, funnel. system. And so we're doubling and even tripling down on that and spending a lot more money on marketing, between the different marketing and the legion we're spending on average over 10, 000 a month. and we want to keep doing more. I want to be able to again, like turn that dial up. Our staff is a lot more refined so that we can handle more volume. So we've got a sales manager, we've got a team at Elevation, and we've got six rockstar agents that are out trying to actively find deals. I'm creating content. I'm creating relationships with people. So I'm trying to find deals as well. and we've actually made it to where we've done 10 wholesales just in the last two quarters. And again, it's been a function of, I've still kept at doing three to four company deals at once. I guess theoretically I could go out, raise more capital because we've used our internal company capital at this point that we churn and burn with and, and we could do all those deals ourselves. But again, I want to get really good deals for our clients and then I want to keep building that marketing machine. So for us, the other thing that we're trying to do is obviously provide great deals for people and then my team of agents earns those listings on the backend. And so with that being said, we're going to really try to ramp up. I think that, where that could go, it'll be interesting to see in the Denver market. If I look at in markets like Phoenix, Vegas, and some of the Midwestern markets where there's cheaper price points. there's some monster wholesalers out there. They don't do as much flipping themselves, but they're doing 10 to 20 deals a month, but they're also spending, six figures a month on, on lead gen and on marketing. So we're going to try to find that sweet spot. I think we want to really keep going and do a lot more wholesaling, but we also want to do more flipping. So we're going to take a quick break and tell you about the next elevation academy. If you're looking to dive deep into real estate investing, this is definitely the event for you. Our academy features over a hundred step process to help you navigate every single thing from market analysis all the way down to every aspect of project management. So this is tailored for both beginners and seasoned investors. And our one day intensive training will equip you with the strategies and insights needed to elevate your real estate investing game. Spots are definitely limited. So click on the link below in the show notes to sign up and transform your approach to real estate investment. Okay, let's get back to the episode. And so again, as you're thinking through your business strategy, thinking about what you want to do in 2025, the other thing we're working on, this will probably be an episode that we'll have here in the next couple of weeks, is we're trying to come up with an equation that says if I can make X number or X percent of what I would make flipping the property versus wholesaling it, but I can make it an on average two or three weeks, I'm probably going to pull the trigger on wholesaling it. But that's still got to be a really good deal for somebody on the back end. So those are things we're all trying to consider. The other thing that we need to take into account is staffing. So like I said, we've got a great team right now of really, really savvy, hungry people on the acquisition side that are finding these deals. And a key piece of the puzzle, and this is what I want to, end today's episode with, what's called the disposition side of the equation. So we talked about what is a wholesale, we've had actually prior episodes on how are we sourcing and finding deals. So go back and listen to those episodes, about probably six months ago. But the disposition side is the transition between getting the property under contract, doing our inspections, and then marketing and getting a end cash buyer, or essentially another investor just like us, of who's going to buy that thing on the backside. So that disposition time is a really key part of the sales process. And actually currently it's a bottleneck for Elevation. Again, I think people, everybody talks about everything going perfectly, everybody making all this money. things definitely, you want to be. Have them going well, but it dovetails in my opinion with, people are thinking they're great at multitasking, but when you have to take off that, hat, if you will, of one role and put the hat on for another role, I think it's a hard thing to do. And so for us, what we're looking at is how do we improve our dispositions role or that aspect of the business? So right now, just to pull the curtain back. Again, we consider ourselves a smaller wholesaler. we have 285 people on our cash buyers list, but in reality, we're probably working with about 15 of those folks. Those are the active people that are currently buying. I think we probably need to double that in 2025. So we need to probably have closer to 500 people on our list overall. And then we need to have kind of our top 30 or 40 folks that cover the gamut of Some people only want to do cosmetic flips. Some people like to do, condos and townhomes. Other people may want to just buy as a rental. Some folks want to focus on, our bread and butter, which is between 500, flips. And other folks want to do what I call entry level luxury. So 900, 000 to like 1. 4 million. So we need to cover that gamut. and that spectrum. And I think we need to do a better job of that because to me, that's part of the bottleneck. So even though we've done a lot better in the last six months, the other thing that we're doing, and this is why people always ask me, they're like, why the hell do you have the elevation Academy? You're teaching your competition. I see it differently. If I can educate people and I can get them more experienced, or I can get them to run the system, the way that we do. They can become a better flipper. They can make better profits. And essentially I'm building in my backend, contingency of investors that I can work with. And so I need to be able to either a attract experienced, more experienced investors. or B, I need to train them. And so I think that's something that's really, really key. Like if it's your first flip, you're going to be nervous about taking down a deal and you're going to second guess yourself. And even though we all need to get in the game, one way or the other, we're just trying to streamline the process. So I think the experience of the investor is really, really important. the other thing that is a bit of a bottleneck is our sales manager, Adam, he's doing a great job. but he's having to wear the hat of the dispositions role. So again, we've got our six folks, they're going out. They're finding deals, they're helping sell those deals, but it's really falling on Adam's shoulders right now. And that's not like we could run a nice business, but it's not where we want to scale and it's not where we want to grow to. And so I think really getting him to again, be that, I always go back to these sports analogies, but like, you can't be the quarterback and the wide receiver at the same time. You can't well, most times, unless you're Josh Allen, you like, can't throw the ball to yourself. so we need, Abner to be our offensive coordinator, if you will, and directing the plays, and directing the players. So again, I think that multitasking thing is really, really hard. And so just as an aside, if you're out there listening and you have, you're either working at another wholesale company, you're an agent and you want to get into this, like we're really looking for dispositions manager and a person who can crush it and has those investor contacts. Because again, we now have this team of bad ass six folks. Tracking down deals. I'm spending a bunch more money on lead gen and on marketing and on content. And then we've got this amazing project management super dial with Travis, our project manager. We just need a person to help do the, as they call it, the dispel. So if you're that person, please contact me. but again, if you're building up your company, wholesaling is a key part of it, but a lot of people I'm not going to say forget about the dispel aspect, but it's something that's super, super important because if you want to get up to, scaling and doing, 10 plus deals a month, 20 plus deals a month. You have to have these systems in place, but more importantly, you have to have the backend and buyers of who are going to take down those deals. And then when you're ranking your investors, you also need to take into account where are they getting their money from? So you need to pre qualify these folks. So it's either them showing you a proof of funds, like, hey, this is the actual amount of money I have in my bank account with a bank statement, or here's my track record of flips that I've done, and here's my private money lender, or, we partner with BackFlip, and so we'll send people to get pre qualified with them, and they'll be the hard money person to fund those deals. You've got to make sure that's rock solid as well. So as we wrap up today's episode, I'm sure a lot of you're thinking like, okay, cool. How do I find these cash buyers? How do I find these other investors? And so here's what we're currently doing. And then I'll give you a little bit of a framework of kind of what we're going to focus on this year right now. Actually, one of our biggest partners is a title company. You got to have a really good title company because they know other good investors. So we've got two title companies that we do the vast majority of our business with, and they've been. absolutely super, super important in helping connect us to other investors. So that's like low hanging fruit. That's just old school, good business development. They're excited because then they get more transactions. So make friends with your title sales rep, host joint events, like go out and do that stuff. simple and old school, but meetups, networking, and especially real estate associations. You do need to be careful because again, not to say that you don't want to work with inexperienced people, but you almost need to really vet them or put them in what we do as our education pipeline. But ideally you're finding experienced people that are those backend investors. And once you get to know those folks, something that we're super passionate about is assign them, whether you're a one person crew or whether you've got agents, assign them to one person and have those people understand what's called the buy box. And the buy box is what are their guidelines to be considered a good deal. Do not send somebody if all they're going to focus on is luxury flips and you're sending them some shitty condo that costs 200, 000. Like the first thing they're going to do is say, take me off your list. Don't do that. Like have really, really great customer service. you're on your agent side of things. So when you meet those people, go out, find them at meetups, find them at networking things, find them at real estate investor associations. The other thing is, this is kind of a funky concept, but for me, it's when we're making offers on deals that are already on the MLS, a lot of times we get beat out. Because we have very specific investment guidelines. We have our spreadsheet and it either turns green, red, or yellow. And that's the maximum offer that we can make. Well, once that deal closes, cause we saw it as a good opportunity, but I got out bid, I do one of two things. I have our sales team either go direct and find the person who actually bought that house. or look up the LLC and find who owns that LLC and how do I do business with that person. The other thing that's a little counterintuitive and sometimes people play ball and sometimes people tell us to pounce in, we will actually call the agent who listed the property and we'll say, Hey, I know this is unorthodox, but would you share the contact information or maybe multiple people's, and so I'm sure they're saying, well, screw that. Why would I do that? Just add value to them. say, Hey, we're not here to obviously take your client because they've already sold the house. and you'd be surprised. Some people do want to, collaborate and play ball. So Simple, low hanging fruit. but the other thing is social media. Do posts. create content. Obviously, get the word out saying that you're looking for other investors. Every time we do a deal, we just post that deal. And that people go, oh man, that was a pretty good deal. And they'll come out of the woodwork and say, on your next one, let me know. Here's where we're shifting our focus. And again, like, let's call this part, part one of probably three or four part wholesale series that we're going to do this year. Is what? Tools, what software tools, what AI can we use? to help create more of a cash buyers list. So I'm going to give you some of the research that I'm doing. And again, full disclosure, I'll let you know what we guys, full disclosure. I will let you guys know what we end up deciding to do, but there are two different software companies. One is called investor lift and the other is called prop stream. And so those are two different pieces of software that you can subscribe to. That from what I understand really help you build up your cash buyers list. So we're checking into those. Another one is called batch leads. And so what that does is it's almost like the flip example of finding motivated sellers. It gives you the ability to reverse engineer who's the cash buyers on the other end of buying these transactions. So, I mean, as we all know, AI is just prevalent in real estate investing. It's only going to get better. It's only going to get more efficient. So we're trying to find these tools to help us build this buyer's list. But at the end of the day, it's almost like any business. If you have your VIP group of clients, take super good care of them, find ways to make them successful. One of the ways that we do our transparent wholesaling is we do a roof inspection on every deal and we do a sewer inspection. That costs me a couple hundred dollars on every single deal. But to me, it's worth the price of admission. So as we wrap up today, I hope you guys found value in the episode, and the content. Obviously it's raising the flipping bar, but we're talking about wholesaling. that dispositions piece is so important. So I would love to hear from you guys. what are you guys doing? in today's environment, especially in Metro Denver, which is still a very competitive market. Like how are you meeting with other investors? How are you building your dispo list? How are you finding good agents to run the disposition side? Again, to me, I would love for this to be a two way street. Please also come to our meetups. We are firing those back up for the rest of the year. I really wish you guys continued success and we'll catch you guys on the flip side. Thanks for tuning into this week's episode of raising the flipping bar. If you found value in our insights and stories, let's keep the conversation going, connect with me on social media, and be sure to share this episode with friends or colleagues who might benefit your feedback and reviews, help us grow and reach more listeners like you. So please, if you enjoyed this episode, leave us a review. Thanks again to the elevation Academy for sponsoring today's show. If you're interested in learning more, click the link in the show notes below and remember every property tells a story. Every deal brings a lesson. Keep reaching for those goals and we'll catch you on the flip side. Hey everybody. Thank you so much for listening and watching, raising a flipping bar. Just a basic overall disclaimer is that a, This is not legal advice. B, this is not tax advice. C, this is not financial advice. I hope you get the gist, but I'm obviously not a lawyer, not a CPA hell. I'm not even a real estate agent actually, but in general, we hope you get a ton of value out of this, but there is a bit of a disclaimer. Please consult a professional if you have any questions whatsoever.