Welcome to the 2nd season of Podcasts! In this one I interview Alastair McMillan who works for U2. He's one of 3 live monitor engineers . He's also the bands Atmos mixer in his own studio in Belfast.
If you'd like to buy me a coffee - Many Thanks ...
https://www.buymeacoffee.com/GeniusMove
Welcome to the 2nd season of Podcasts! In this one I interview Alastair McMillan who works for U2. He's one of 3 live monitor engineers . He's also the bands Atmos mixer in his own studio in Belfast.
If you'd like to buy me a coffee - Many Thanks ...
https://www.buymeacoffee.com/GeniusMove
Paul Brewer:
So, how you doing? A busy year?
alastair:
Uh.
Paul Brewer:
A busy two years?
alastair:
Yeah, it's been non-stop really. It started with the Bono solo book tour. I think it was,
Paul Brewer:
Oh yes!
alastair:
yeah, that was, what was that? September 22 it must have been. And really it's been non-stop since then because that book ended with the start of the rehearsals for the Sphere. And I've been here in Vegas since September last year. Yeah, it's been a year and a half of constant work,
Paul Brewer:
Wow.
alastair:
you know.
Paul Brewer:
And so you have been home, I guess, within that time, but not for long, yeah?
alastair:
I got home for a few days at Christmas and the day I landed at home I got COVID.
Paul Brewer:
Oh Jesus.
alastair:
It was a short and kind of uncomfortable visit home. But other than that, no I've been away the whole time. So yeah, it's
Paul Brewer:
Yeah.
alastair:
been a bit mad. The funny thing about this show though is... Normally by this stage on a tour I'm dying to get home. Everyone
Paul Brewer:
Right.
alastair:
says every tour is
Paul Brewer:
The
alastair:
two
Paul Brewer:
last
alastair:
weeks
Paul Brewer:
one.
alastair:
too long. Yeah, and the last one.
Paul Brewer:
Yeah.
alastair:
But, and we're nearing the end of this, but I gotta be honest, I think we've only five shows left. I'll be sorry to get to the end of this. It's been really, this particular... show at the Sphere. It's been really a buzz, you know, really exciting
Paul Brewer:
And is
alastair:
working
Paul Brewer:
that because
alastair:
on it,
Paul Brewer:
it's
alastair:
you
Paul Brewer:
also
alastair:
know.
Paul Brewer:
new?
alastair:
Yeah, we were, you know, I got involved quite early on in the whole, you know, figuring it out, how it was going to work from an audio point of view. And so I feel quite invested in the whole thing. And yeah, so it'll be like, every tour comes a very sudden stop.
Paul Brewer:
Yeah, they're just hitting the gig next tomorrow. Yeah.
alastair:
you're literally living with a whole group of people and then I get to hear through and I turn right to take the Belfast flight and suddenly in that corridor you're by yourself for the first time and it's always a really hard, that first day is such a crash you know. But I think this one will be more so because as I say we've been through a lot of things We've invested so much time and energy into this one, you know, but that's the way the way it goes.
Paul Brewer:
And how does the band feel, do you think? And that's without Larry as well,
alastair:
Ah
Paul Brewer:
isn't it?
alastair:
Yeah, yeah, so that was, you know, a difficult process. I'm sure, you know, I'm assuming, you know, for them it was the way, I think it's the first time since 1978, I think. They'd done a gig with Mary, so they had to deal with that. And I'm sure, you know, there was a lot of nerves about how a residency in Vegas could... could be perceived but in actual fact they completely smashed it out of the park and instead of, I think some people should ask, you know, residencies in Vegas is the end of your career but they've turned that completely around on this one and
Paul Brewer:
Yeah.
alastair:
made it cutting the edge, reinvented it all again, which is what they do, you know.
Paul Brewer:
Yeah, because like as an outside observer, you know, initially somebody saying you two do in Vegas, I at the end of sort of thing. But like the I didn't I wasn't really familiar with the how integrated the whole venue would be with the it's more than a concert really. It's a whole
alastair:
Yeah,
Paul Brewer:
experience.
alastair:
yeah, yeah. It's a totally, they've totally lifted the bar on concert experiences again and I'm delighted that it was them that did it. I think they were the perfect band to open up this new kind of venue.
Paul Brewer:
So they are the first artists to play there, yeah?
alastair:
They were heavily involved in the whole, you know, how to use the space and how to use the audio and the video, you know, so they put a lot of work into it and after the first night it's the best reviews we've ever had, you know, it's been really good, you know, so,
Paul Brewer:
So that's essentially
alastair:
yeah.
Paul Brewer:
a fresh experience for a rock-going audience, isn't it?
alastair:
Yeah, yeah, it's a lot to take in when you're there.
Paul Brewer:
Indeed, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I've only seen videos of it itself, but it looks mind boggling. But anyway, let's
alastair:
Yeah.
Paul Brewer:
go back to where you got involved with this project. And what is your job? What's the name of your job, actually?
alastair:
Hehehehehehe
Paul Brewer:
It's more monitor engineer, isn't it?
alastair:
Well, they'll officially ask for my job and on tour. I was also originally down as the recording guy on the tour as well. But as technology has come up, you know, now that we all have, we're everybody on front of the house in monitors and other places, we're all multitracking. You know, it's so much easier to... to record now than it used to be. So we know I am just a monitor giver but I've been there for, this will be 15 years now, and so it's Joe Herla, he's the head of sound and the crew chief and all that stuff. So it was very much, he came out a couple of years ago to investigate this whole new... concept of the speakers that we're using. And then I think it was February or March of this year he said he was coming out to Vegas. The place was still being built. So he asked me to come out and just to give my opinion on things. So he did, I don't want to take any credit for it at all, Joe's hard work to get it up and going, and he was kind enough to let me get involved a little bit. Yeah, so that's a very vague answer, but it's a very vague
Paul Brewer:
Concept,
alastair:
position
Paul Brewer:
I guess.
alastair:
that I have. Yeah,
Paul Brewer:
Yeah.
alastair:
exactly.
Paul Brewer:
So...
alastair:
Yeah, so. But my main day to day job is looking after bonnows, monitors, yeah. Yeah, just exciting.
Paul Brewer:
Just the stars, is it? Or are these their lads left to themselves then, yeah? Ha ha ha.
alastair:
Well, no, there's actually three monitor engineers. I look after Bono, Richard Raney, another Nordy, looks after The Edge and CJ Erickson looks after drums and bass. I do kind of spend a lot of my life. having to explain to people why we would have one engineer per artist. There's various answers to that but the individual mixes are so, well certainly at this stage because they're used to it, they're very detailed and very involved and to mix all four of them at the same time, which I have done a few times on... promo tours and whatever. It's very difficult to give each member the attention they're used to. And all four mixes are very different as well. So... The other thing that I thought was interesting was that when it came to mixing monitors they specifically asked for... studio engineers to do it which is which i don't want to put a big difference between studio mixing and live mixing but they just wanted people who worked with them in the studio so they did those kind of mixes for them you know
Paul Brewer:
and
alastair:
and
Paul Brewer:
to
alastair:
uh
Paul Brewer:
be familiar with the team as well.
alastair:
Yeah, yeah. So, so yeah, so it's yeah, it is possibly a bit excessive having three engineers for a four
Paul Brewer:
You
alastair:
piece
Paul Brewer:
reckon?
alastair:
band. But but it's a full time basically, and we're all completely independent, we're all separate. We all the audio is split four ways. And so I have complete. All the inputs, everything is separate. And I do it my way and Rich does it his way. Sorry, I forgot the point where I was going. You know, so it is like I'm mixing a front of the house mix for a bottle. And same of Rich and CJ. except the only person who hears it. I'm just mixing for one person whereas Joe is mixing for
Paul Brewer:
A million.
alastair:
a hundred thousand people some nights.
Paul Brewer:
Yeah, yeah. Yes,
alastair:
But
Paul Brewer:
indeed.
alastair:
it's as intense for me as it is for Joe I think sometimes. You know
Paul Brewer:
S-S-S-S-Ha-Ha-
alastair:
because they're totally reliant on it.
Paul Brewer:
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah. There's no you know, feedback from there's nothing on the floor, in other words, firing
alastair:
Mm-hmm.
Paul Brewer:
at them, they're completely relying on that. Right. So like, can we go back to like 15 years ago? It's changed a lot within that 15 years. Is that a fair statement?
alastair:
Well, it's the same concept and basic technology. When I joined it was, we were already fully all in ears
Paul Brewer:
Rice.
alastair:
and so, no, so I was lucky I didn't have to think too much about it. We used to have wedges out front just as a backup but yeah, we don't use them at all now, so. So it does feel like you're doing a studio mix to be honest with you. The in-air technology is so good now, it's like listening to near field monitors.
Paul Brewer:
Right.
alastair:
It's good that
Paul Brewer:
And
alastair:
way.
Paul Brewer:
like, do you have a different mic on the cab than maybe the guitar, you know, does it go down to that detail? You're
alastair:
Ehh
Paul Brewer:
running off the same mics or not?
alastair:
Yeah, we're running off the same mics. Yeah, so we all get all front the house and monitors and everywhere else. Yeah, we all get the same set of inputs.
Paul Brewer:
Right.
alastair:
But after that, it's up to the different engineers to do their mixes. And, you know, we obviously never get a chance to listen to CJ or Rich when I'm... But I think just the nature of it is we all do, all our mixes are going to be different I guess. But we mix for different needs. Edge needs real precision and his mix is very detailed and very precise. Bono on the other hand... his mix, he needs energy and
Paul Brewer:
Yes.
alastair:
vibe and you know, because he needs to perform, he needs something
Paul Brewer:
And does it get
alastair:
to...
Paul Brewer:
feedback? Is there a crowd mics included in that and stuff? Yeah.
alastair:
Yeah, the audience is very, very important, certainly for Bono. So I actually have 12 audience mics, just to show. And
Paul Brewer:
in case
alastair:
that
Paul Brewer:
10
alastair:
audience
Paul Brewer:
of them aren't
alastair:
feedback.
Paul Brewer:
screaming.
alastair:
Yeah. So that audience feedback is for Bono, especially, is very important. So that would be like a big part of my mix is the ambience, you know. I'd be riding that a lot all throughout the show. Because he needs that. That's what he's about, is
Paul Brewer:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
alastair:
making the connection of the audience. And as I'm sure you know, a lot of artists, when they first move to in-ears, it's very, very difficult to be disconnected compared to what they used to. So that's part of my job, I guess, is to keep that audience connection going for them. Yeah.
Paul Brewer:
And Adam and Larry are... what's the new drummer's name? The temporary drummer.
alastair:
Brahm?
Paul Brewer:
Oh, that's it, yeah.
alastair:
Yeah.
Paul Brewer:
So, is it a dynamic mix for them as well? Or does that stay the same? Or
alastair:
Uh...
Paul Brewer:
how does that work?
alastair:
Yeah,
Paul Brewer:
I'm just
alastair:
it's
Paul Brewer:
wondering
alastair:
all...
Paul Brewer:
what level of automation is involved and you know, no automation or is it constantly tweaking and...
alastair:
constantly tweaking and this is my favourite thing about mixing this band, even though we do the same set, or when we do the same set, it's different every night.
Paul Brewer:
The band are playing differently every night, is that true? Yeah.
alastair:
Yeah,
Paul Brewer:
Okay.
alastair:
there's a different energy, there's a different feel and whatever, so it's up to us to try and capture that and that's the fun part. I've done tours before where it's... It's so incredibly fixed and like theatre tours where everything hits the same part and it's very boring after the second or third show you're just sitting there pressing the button
Paul Brewer:
Yeah,
alastair:
but that's not the case with
Paul Brewer:
for
alastair:
this
Paul Brewer:
your
alastair:
band.
Paul Brewer:
point of view it's boring. But not necessarily for
alastair:
Yeah,
Paul Brewer:
the...
alastair:
for that kind of show, but these guys aren't like that at all. Every night it feels like a whole... well it is, it's a brand new live performance which we have to react to and it's what makes it so exciting. I'm coming across the sound in very sick and funny but I don't mind saying that they're one of the best live performances. bands, you know, and so it's really exciting for us to get to work with that every night, you know. And in terms of automation, we have like, I can't remember, I think there's like 120, 130 channels or something, inputs, which for a four-piece band is pretty impressive. So there's
Paul Brewer:
So how do you
alastair:
a
Paul Brewer:
make
alastair:
layer.
Paul Brewer:
pannau 40 times?
alastair:
Yeah, there's lots of extra channel. So there's a basic level of automation in terms of just switching things on and off from song to song. But other than that, we're constantly mixing the whole night. Which is what makes it so much fun, you know.
Paul Brewer:
And so from the band's point of view, your dynamic mixing is adding to their show, essentially, because they're reacting to what they're hearing. Is
alastair:
Yeah,
Paul Brewer:
that fair?
alastair:
yeah, well certainly with Bono, I think he would probably say that. It's up to me to... I feel like I'm doing the show with him, to be honest with you. That's...
Paul Brewer:
Do you wear leather trousers? Just wondering.
alastair:
Only on certain days, yeah. No, I mean, that's the difference. Obviously, he's out there in front of all the screaming people and I'm... I go home by myself at the end of the night and back to my hotel room and think about the choices I've made in life. It is that kind of thing.
Paul Brewer:
Do you get nervous before a show?
alastair:
Oh yeah, very much. Yeah,
Paul Brewer:
Really?
alastair:
100%. Absolutely, yeah.
Paul Brewer:
Wow.
alastair:
It's a big responsibility.
Paul Brewer:
So what have you in place for stuff going wrong?
alastair:
We have a... redundancy is important. The console that we use has... it's a Digico SD7 so it has redundancy built into it. It has two engines so to speak. So if one goes down you can switch a button, click a button and touch wood. Oh God, there's no wood!
Paul Brewer:
Hehehehehehe
alastair:
I've never had to do that but we also then have an entire spare console sitting on the sideline as well so we can switch over to that if that's the case. And it's the same up front the house so yeah I mean it's such a big production show that we need to have redundancy if... I feel it doesn't see because like, it's, it, they're probably fundamental parts and if one of them could be started, you know, it would be very disastrous. So,
Paul Brewer:
It could be memorable, okay?
alastair:
yeah. Yeah, exactly.
Paul Brewer:
Yes,
alastair:
Yeah,
Paul Brewer:
indeed. So,
alastair:
yeah.
Paul Brewer:
like, are there any speakers on stage then? Anything at all? Like, is the edge, has it?
alastair:
Not at
Paul Brewer:
Right, okay.
alastair:
the minute, no. There's a couple of that just for emergencies, but no, they're all constantly in anger.
Paul Brewer:
And is he using all the AC30s and stuff? Or, you know, I remember seeing a video before and it was under the stage and stuff. So does all that happen now? Or does he gone, is the sound, his sound gone digital as well?
alastair:
Actually for this tour he's using some new UAD stuff, amp simulators and stuff, but yeah, for the most part it's still the full experience that they've always used. Adam has... a whole series of ours going on and we're always, every song is like a blend of different amps, same for the Edge obviously as well. So it's, yeah, there's a lot going on.
Paul Brewer:
So is the goal then to mix the song to represent the record sonically? Is that the idea?
alastair:
Um...
Paul Brewer:
Like the old stuff sounds much different than the new stuff, obviously.
alastair:
Well, we're not necessarily trying to make it exactly as the original album, but yeah, I mean particularly Edge is very, very focused on the guitar sound for every part of every song, you know, so they spent a lot of time dialing in the tones and the different various effects and sounds. It's, yeah, they go to incredible detail. Even, you know, all the way through the tour. I mean, as I say, we're near the end of it, but still every day they'll come in and
Paul Brewer:
tweaking.
alastair:
tweak the sounds. Yeah. Trying to get it better and better each time, you know.
Paul Brewer:
And so is that for them or is it for the audience or are they making the changes because they're interested in making changes and let's see what happens with that change and that will just go out to the audience? Or is it
alastair:
Well,
Paul Brewer:
because...
alastair:
I guess it's kind of both, yeah. But yeah, they're still very heavily invested in trying to get the sound that they want to get, you know. And as I said, they'll go to incredible length and detail in dialing them in, you know. It's quite amazing how
Paul Brewer:
First
alastair:
people
Paul Brewer:
button
alastair:
might
Paul Brewer:
out.
alastair:
think
Paul Brewer:
Ha
alastair:
that they're just...
Paul Brewer:
ha
alastair:
There
Paul Brewer:
ha.
alastair:
he is now. Sorry about that. So it's really good to see that they do care that much about it. Yeah,
Paul Brewer:
but not shared it at all.
alastair:
yeah, yeah. Absolutely. No, 100%. They're very, very... All the focus every day is all about how to make the show better.
Paul Brewer:
Better.
alastair:
And
Paul Brewer:
Yeah.
alastair:
they'll always change everything from the sounds to the... the camera angles, and it's all to do with the audience experience really. It's refreshing, no not refreshing, it's great to see that they're not,
Paul Brewer:
They're
alastair:
they're
Paul Brewer:
not
alastair:
as
Paul Brewer:
dialing
alastair:
passionate
Paul Brewer:
it in.
alastair:
about it now. No, no they're definitely not. No exactly,
Paul Brewer:
Right, yeah.
alastair:
they're as passionate about it now as they were in the 70s.
Paul Brewer:
What's different about the show in terms of the show? What part of this new venue play in it? This show was essentially made for this venue, wasn't it?
alastair:
Well, in terms of the visuals and the audience experience, yes, it was the sound. But at the end of the day, it's still a rock show. And that's the core element of it. And
Paul Brewer:
So the show
alastair:
again,
Paul Brewer:
hasn't out-
alastair:
I have to...
Paul Brewer:
the show hasn't out-muscled the music.
alastair:
No, I'll be honest, the first day I saw it, I walked into the place and then it, because the way it is, you've got the stoma and then the stage is on the floor and the seats go up, you know, so everybody's looking down on top of the stage and the scale is ridiculous when you're at the top, it's actually quite scary. And the first thing I thought when I walked in there was, well, how are they going to maintain that connection with an audience that they're so famous for? But they did it, you know, they, you know, the immersive, in terms of the visuals, not just the sound, the experiences, it can be overwhelming, or it could be overwhelming, but they... They did enough of it to give you the wow factor, but then they also turn it off at certain points of the show, so that you just are focused on the band and you're focused on the music, which is that kind of... I don't know if restraint is the right way to do it, but other people might have gone in with just all the gags and all the...
Paul Brewer:
all the
alastair:
And
Paul Brewer:
time.
alastair:
it was just all the time, you know, but they've used it really... I'm sorry, selectively or precisely, you know.
Paul Brewer:
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
alastair:
So for them it's still a show and it still connects with the audience, but given the scale of it, it says a lot about the show, you know. So, yeah, it's pretty clever.
Paul Brewer:
So is this going to be the only place that has this facility? Or is this the future of shows? Or who financed it?
alastair:
Uh, I-
Paul Brewer:
Who invented this thing? And was it invented for
alastair:
So...
Paul Brewer:
music? Was that the idea of it?
alastair:
Yeah, that side of it, I don't know about how it came together or the business side of it, but it was put together by a guy who, as far as I know, there's an Irish connection, because he's the name, Jim Dolan. It sounds pretty Irish to me. Yeah,
Paul Brewer:
Yeah, reasonably Irish.
alastair:
I'm pretty sure he is, but I've never met him. But he is MSG, as in Madison Square Garden. group. So he obviously knows concerts and so he did this whole project together as I understand it. There is talk about building other spheres in other locations. I know the next one was with Swede London and I think they've gone down that road quite a bit but as far as I understand the... I believe that the Lord Mayor of London has next up. They didn't get the planning permission. So I don't know where the next one is, but I believe the ultimate plan is to have four or five of them scattered around the world, you know. But yeah, we'll see. We'll see what happens, you know.
Paul Brewer:
So from the first day you went in there to show time, how long was that?
alastair:
Well actually as I said myself and Joe went over to have a look at it. I think it was in March or something. But then the whole crew and the whole production went in there at the beginning of September. And we'd four weeks more or less before the first show.
Paul Brewer:
Wow.
alastair:
Yeah, so four in tents.
Paul Brewer:
Yeah, exactly.
alastair:
to try and get it going. I'm only saying it from the audio point of view. I mean, ahead of us, the video, which is
Paul Brewer:
All
alastair:
just
Paul Brewer:
right, okay.
alastair:
a whole other level, and the lighting, all those guys and the carps and everybody, they were there before us
Paul Brewer:
Alright, okay.
alastair:
working on it as well. So, yeah, so all the departments. It took a lot of planning.
Paul Brewer:
Yeah, indeed. Yeah. Like, I suppose there'd be a lot of, you know how you work together. You know what plugs into what. That's gonna be already sort of set in stone by the time you get there, isn't it? Really.
alastair:
Yeah, there's a lot of, yeah, there's an awful lot of planning that went into it, yeah, absolutely. But even still when we got there, you know, it was finding out how it was all going to work together and figuring out, you know, anything like that, obviously there's going to be not issues but
Paul Brewer:
Heating
alastair:
challenges
Paul Brewer:
problems, yes indeed.
alastair:
to figure out. So we needed that time to... Yeah, figured it all out. So, it would sound like a long time, but actually it wasn't really. It was quite
Paul Brewer:
It doesn't sound
alastair:
high
Paul Brewer:
like a long
alastair:
pressure.
Paul Brewer:
time really, because
alastair:
Alright, okay. Yeah,
Paul Brewer:
you know what I mean? Like that's what I thought. I
alastair:
yeah,
Paul Brewer:
was thinking
alastair:
yeah.
Paul Brewer:
you were going to say six months or whatever. So,
alastair:
Oh
Paul Brewer:
yeah,
alastair:
right, right.
Paul Brewer:
yeah.
alastair:
Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well, we'd already done music rehearsals and some pre-production. So by the time we got there, that was taken care of. So then we could concentrate on the actual audio itself and the lighting and the video, as I say, which is another scale altogether, you know.
Paul Brewer:
Yes,
alastair:
Yeah
Paul Brewer:
How long has it been that the whole shows have been multi tracked recorded? Like every show has been recorded. Have that been going on for many years or?
alastair:
Yeah, well, by the time, as I said, I started in 2009, it was already well established by that point. So I actually not sure, but when it started, I mean, as you know yourself, that it was the technology was the earlier you go back, the more difficult it is, whereas now it's plug
Paul Brewer:
me.
alastair:
and play, you know, but Yeah, no, I think it goes back a long way. I've seen the vault and it goes on for days. So I don't know the correct answer. Every show is it. But I wouldn't be surprised to be honest with you. Oh,
Paul Brewer:
But as long as you've been there, all the show has been recorded, yeah?
alastair:
yeah, absolutely.
Paul Brewer:
And
alastair:
Yeah.
Paul Brewer:
do you have to do a rough mix? Or did you listen to it in the van on the way home?
alastair:
No, well they do, absolutely. Every day they'll check it back and that's why they'll come in and say, oh last night we heard this and we heard that and whatever. So that's what I meant earlier on about the detail and the tweaking that they go to is really extreme lengths and... They're very detailed and very proactive at making it work.
Paul Brewer:
I guess part of the vibe for them is that it can never be perfect. It can always be better.
alastair:
Yeah, exactly.
Paul Brewer:
Is that true, yeah?
alastair:
Yeah, 100%. Yeah.
Paul Brewer:
Yeah.
alastair:
And I think it's the same for everybody on this crew as well. I mean, certainly I go home every night going, oh God, you know. There's nobody here rests on their laurels, you know. It's in every department, everybody's including the band themselves. Yeah, we all question it every night.
Paul Brewer:
Right, yeah. So after the show does a backstage of, oh, god damn it.
alastair:
Yeah,
Paul Brewer:
Right.
alastair:
yeah. Occasionally there'll be the odd little high five, maybe
Paul Brewer:
Hahahaha
alastair:
if you have a good show. But then I say, OK, well, let's see how we can do that better, you know. So, yeah, exactly. There's a very little patting on the back.
Paul Brewer:
A good way to work, a great way to work obviously.
alastair:
Yeah, yeah, I guess that's why they're still going, you know, it's too long, you know.
Paul Brewer:
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So you mix the atmosphere version of Act Young Baby. Is that right?
alastair:
Oh yeah,
Paul Brewer:
So
alastair:
that's right, yeah.
Paul Brewer:
how did that come about?
alastair:
I think, you know, well this show is based around the Acting Baby album and then obviously the whole concept of it being an immersive experience, it was a natural step, we should do an Atmos version of the album to go with it, you know.
Paul Brewer:
And is that the first Atmos?
alastair:
No, the last album that came out, the songs of surrender, it was like a 40 track album of like revisiting all the hits. So that was the first one that I did in Atmos.
Paul Brewer:
Did you do that as well? All right, okay.
alastair:
So yeah, that was the first time I'd ever heard of Atmos to be honest with you. It was Ed said to me one day when I was leaving the studio. I'd done a little bit of work on the album, I was helping the guy out and I said to him on the way out the door, you know, thanks very much, had a great time and he says, oh, yeah, by the way, we need to do an Atmos version. If you could look into that and... I was like, yeah, sure, how hard can it be? And it turns out it's really hard. But it's, yeah, it was a big, steep learning curve.
Paul Brewer:
And where did you mix it?
alastair:
Well I ended up building a studio myself in Belfast
Paul Brewer:
Alright, okay.
alastair:
at home. I worked, yeah, so, but along the way I met some great people. He gave me lots of help and advice. Free universal, actually I was still in the process of setting up the studio. And I got a call. It was a Garble. I couldn't quite hear what the guy was saying and I was like, sorry what? And he said, hello, I'm calling from Abbey Road. I'm an engineer at Abbey Road, my name is Giles Martin. I
Paul Brewer:
Oh,
alastair:
was just like,
Paul Brewer:
I knew your
alastair:
oh
Paul Brewer:
dad. I knew your dad.
alastair:
yeah, okay, I know
Paul Brewer:
Hehehe
alastair:
who you are. He says, I heard you're working on this and if you have any questions. He called it the murky world of Atmos mixing. There's another guy in Universal, a guy called Chris Jenkins who has been really helpful. And the people in Dalby themselves, Dalby have been fantastic. They're really being proactive at trying to help. studios and engineers getting up and running. So, yeah, so it's been a bit of a journey, but I've been loving it, I have to say. I was skeptical as anybody going into this, thinking, oh, this is a whole fad, but now, yeah, I'm a believer.
Paul Brewer:
Yeah. Look,
alastair:
That's
Paul Brewer:
it
alastair:
good.
Paul Brewer:
seems to me that the car is the place that most people will listen to music in. And is that an ideal place for Atmos?
alastair:
There are... it's coming online in cars. Funny enough when we did the Acton Baby single that came out at the start of this show, when it came to do an Atmos version of that, there was time constraints and we didn't have time to get the band into the studio to have a listen to it. with Atmos speakers in it. But we had to get that down to the venue for them to listen to it. And that's how we listened to that mix. That was a mad day.
Paul Brewer:
Oh go on with ya!
alastair:
But actually, I think the start that I was told was, I think it's 93% of... music is consumed on headphones. So really that's the main delivery format these days, is the headphone experience. But yeah, it's definitely taken off and with headphones actually they keep updating the technology, the algorithms and the playback systems or whatever, so it's constantly evolving. Which makes mixing for it very difficult actually. But it's an exciting time to be doing this, because I'll be the first to tell you the actual process of mixing in that most is still a bit clunky, there's still a few stupid steps you have to go through to actually do it. But the flip side of that is it's... It feels like an exciting time. I wasn't there when Mono went to stereo, but I'm sure that was exciting time as well. And it feels like that to me, you know,
Paul Brewer:
Right.
alastair:
because the rules aren't really established,
Paul Brewer:
Established.
alastair:
you know.
Paul Brewer:
Yeah.
alastair:
Yeah, so there's still scope for, well, I wonder what would happen if we did this and did that. So,
Paul Brewer:
Is there much of that
alastair:
yeah.
Paul Brewer:
on acting baby?
alastair:
Well, no, that's, this is another side of the whole Atmos debate is because I feel mixing legacy albums, taking empty Atmos, you have to be really, really careful to respect the original album. And you know, that sort of, which most of the time... And Credit Where Credit's Due, Richard Raney did the really hard work of trying to recreate the original stereo mix, which was a very tough job in itself. And then I took that into the Atmos world. It needs to sound like the original album. Just because you can fire something over there and up there and all that,
Paul Brewer:
Yeah.
alastair:
it doesn't mean you should. It needs to be true to the album. It needs to sound like it was, but just to bring you inside. Just change your perspective of where you're listening to it really. but the album needs to be the same album. I'm not really explaining that
Paul Brewer:
Yeah,
alastair:
very well, but hopefully
Paul Brewer:
I understand
alastair:
you're
Paul Brewer:
what you
alastair:
understanding.
Paul Brewer:
mean. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
alastair:
Yeah,
Paul Brewer:
So
alastair:
yeah. So
Paul Brewer:
really,
alastair:
that was the constant challenge.
Paul Brewer:
it's really future recordings that will excel in that
alastair:
Yeah, yeah,
Paul Brewer:
mode. And it will be part will
alastair:
I
Paul Brewer:
be
alastair:
think
Paul Brewer:
written for it being at most and stuff like that. Yeah.
alastair:
Exactly, exactly. But
Paul Brewer:
which will
alastair:
even...
Paul Brewer:
suit Mr Edge when he has air channels of echo going on.
alastair:
Exactly, there's a lot of opportunities there. But again, I'd be very... I'd be of the strong opinion that at the end of the day we're working with music. And it needs to suit the music, it needs to suit the genre, you know. And... yeah. there can be a real disconnect. As you know, so many songs, so many productions are reliant on the glue of the stereo bus when it all comes together. And that makes so much part of the song, that energy. And as soon as you pull that apart, you're in danger of losing
Paul Brewer:
The magic.
alastair:
the music. Yeah, exactly. So it is genre specific and music specific, but for me, it's about sounding all cheesy. You have to get the music right first and then you can move things out as long as the song is still there.
Paul Brewer:
So, does anybody make an Atmos bus compressor? How does
alastair:
No,
Paul Brewer:
that work?
alastair:
it's... yeah, well, it is an issue and they're starting... there are a couple of things starting to come online, but it's a little bit slow. I was speaking to another Atmos engineer only last night, actually a guy called Eric Schilling, he won the Grammy this year for Best Immersive Album. and he's a really nice guy but he was telling me, I don't know if it's a secret maybe
Paul Brewer:
Mm.
alastair:
it is, maybe it isn't but in case it is maybe but he had a leading, he had a... yeah
Paul Brewer:
We won't include it if it is. But you can tell me!
alastair:
he was working with George Massenburg who's developing this 16 channel compressor. So things are starting to come on board and there are a couple of plugins out there but actually that was a big problem I had because certainly on the Songs to Surrender album where if you have a lot of 2 bus processing, recreating that on a... on a bed is really challenging. Because actually on that album, there was quite a lot of EAD plugins around the place and they're not multi-channel at
Paul Brewer:
Yes
alastair:
all at the
Paul Brewer:
indeed.
alastair:
minute. So you have to kind of find other bits of software to make it sit on it. Yeah, I've been running the circle. I've been running around circles.
Paul Brewer:
Right. So essentially what you're saying is that the mixing process at the moment isn't perfect, but it may be in years to come when the tools arrive.
alastair:
Oh it's getting better,
Paul Brewer:
Yeah.
alastair:
absolutely and the tools are constantly being updated and it's like the latest version of Pro Tools as I'm sure you saw that they've integrated the Dolby renderer
Paul Brewer:
render,
alastair:
into
Paul Brewer:
yeah.
alastair:
it now. Yeah, so it's getting better, it's getting better definitely. I imagine, I suppose, I don't know how the business works but I guess people were sitting back some people are going well let's see if this takes off and actually I think this year I think 2024 is going to be a make-up year because up to now you've had the record companies you've had Dalby everybody really putting the push on it and so that I think they've done most of that work so it's now's the time to see if the consumers are going to accept it and make it So I think that's just my opinion. I think this year will be,
Paul Brewer:
Yeah.
alastair:
if it's still here at the end of this year,
Paul Brewer:
Right,
alastair:
that
Paul Brewer:
okay.
alastair:
we're on it.
Paul Brewer:
Yeah.
alastair:
But I'm pretty sure it will be developed. It's a good format for sure.
Paul Brewer:
Yes.
alastair:
I hope so because I've invested a lot of money in the studio.
Paul Brewer:
Right, okay, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So how big of a control room do you have? I presume it's just a control room, is it?
alastair:
Yeah, just control them. It's not actually, you don't need a huge space, you know, you can... Estimating dimensions, it's a part of my brain that's never really computed to. So I could fire
Paul Brewer:
Will they
alastair:
out
Paul Brewer:
have
alastair:
figures
Paul Brewer:
height?
alastair:
and it may not make any sense at all. About that,
Paul Brewer:
Alright, okay.
alastair:
you know. It's nice to have a bit of height, but you don't need a huge room, like 5-6 metres, I might not have got that number right, is all you need really. You
Paul Brewer:
Rice.
alastair:
don't need a huge room, but it's great if you can have 11-14, if you can get... Like a 12 speaker setup, that's really all you need. I say all you need, that's a lot of speakers,
Paul Brewer:
Hahaha
alastair:
but You know, that's an ideal way to mix You know, so
Paul Brewer:
The way it's a lot of stuff has been mixed as well is old recordings and trying to reproduce them in the format is that a good way of working in terms of you have you know, what the goal is and you can switch off your musical brain a bit and power up the engineering brain more to deal with the things that need dealt with within the Atmos format. Is that a fair assumption?
alastair:
Yes, absolutely. You need to match the way the mix works is when the streaming platform has them. The Atmos mix and the original stereo mixer together and then the user has the option to switch between the Atmos version or the stereo version. So both those files have to match. in terms of length and all that kind of stuff. And you don't want that to be completely different when you switch between them. So yeah, so in terms of legacy, you know, legacy stuff, yeah, you need to be referencing the stereo mix all the time, very closely. But like you said earlier on, I think with, I haven't... heard a lot of people doing it but I think what's going to start happening is mixing in Atmos first and then creating the stereo files from
Paul Brewer:
down.
alastair:
the like as a down mix sort of thing you know so
Paul Brewer:
Yeah.
alastair:
which will be an interesting way to do it you know yeah I'd like to try that actually yeah
Paul Brewer:
Mmm.
alastair:
where at the minute I'm trying to get the Atmos version to mix the to match the stereo you
Paul Brewer:
Yes,
alastair:
know
Paul Brewer:
indeed. Yeah, yeah.
alastair:
yeah
Paul Brewer:
So, yeah, so your hands are...
alastair:
I
Paul Brewer:
your hands
alastair:
think
Paul Brewer:
are tied.
alastair:
doing the legacy, yeah exactly, doing, recreating old albums is a slightly different, well completely different mindset to doing the new stuff I think you know so. But it's fun, it's exciting. No, it's not actually. I spend all day pulling my hair out and going, oh my god, I can't do
Paul Brewer:
Yeah.
alastair:
it. So yeah, it's actually not fun and exciting at all. But I have heard some amazing albums in that most. And one of the first ones I heard was A Kind of Blue, Miles Davis, which is one of the greatest. It's like a standard jazz and you do really feel like you're in the room with the musicians on that. It's a whole new experience, you know. But I've heard of albums that don't work at all. quite often certainly when I was mixing both of these albums switching between the stereo and the Atmos if the Atmos didn't sound better or better is the wrong word but if it didn't bring something to the mix then there was no point in doing it
Paul Brewer:
There's no point in it.
alastair:
then there's no point in it. Yeah, yeah. So that was always, you know, switching between the two and anytime that the atmosphere sounded worse, then I'd have to go back and work on it, you know? So, yeah.
Paul Brewer:
find out why.
alastair:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah,
it's great. It's very...