Ever wonder how you got here as you blow out the candles on your birthday cake? That's where we begin in this episode, making space for the bittersweet emotions of milestone birthdays and the impending retirements of colleagues we admire.
In our main segment, we talk about the possibilities of the College-Level Examination Program (CLEP) that can save college students serious time and money. Never heard of it? We speculate about why that might be as well as describe what it can (and can’t) do for lifelong learners curious about alternative pathways to college.
Wherever you are in your educational journey, it’s never too late to experience the joy of learning and discovery!
Show Notes
Thanks for listening! Connect with us via
Subscribe (for free) to Uncovered: Life Beyond on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts so you'll never miss an episode!
What topics at the intersection of education, high-demand religion, career, parenting, and emotional intelligence are of interest to you? Help us plan future episodes by taking this quick listener survey. We appreciate your input very much!
Ever wonder how you got here as you blow out the candles on your birthday cake? That's where we begin in this episode, making space for the bittersweet emotions of milestone birthdays and the impending retirements of colleagues we admire.
In our main segment, we talk about the possibilities of the College-Level Examination Program (CLEP) that can save college students serious time and money. Never heard of it? We speculate about why that might be as well as describe what it can (and can’t) do for lifelong learners curious about alternative pathways to college.
Wherever you are in your educational journey, it’s never too late to experience the joy of learning and discovery!
Show Notes
Thanks for listening! Connect with us via
Subscribe (for free) to Uncovered: Life Beyond on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts so you'll never miss an episode!
What topics at the intersection of education, high-demand religion, career, parenting, and emotional intelligence are of interest to you? Help us plan future episodes by taking this quick listener survey. We appreciate your input very much!
This is.
Speaker 2:Rebecca, and this is Naomi. We're 40-something moms and first cousins who know what it's like to veer off the path assigned to us.
Speaker 1:We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college and career, as we've questioned our faith traditions while exploring new identities and ways of seeing the world.
Speaker 2:Without any maps for either of us to follow. We've had to figure things out as we go and appreciate that detours and dead ends are essential to the path Along the way, we've uncovered a few insights we want to share with fellow travelers.
Speaker 1:We want to talk about the questions we didn't know who to ask and the options we didn't know we had.
Speaker 2:So whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking things up, we are here to cheer you on and assure you that the best is yet to come. Welcome to Uncovered Life Beyond. Hello everyone, Welcome back to Uncovered Life Beyond. This is Naomi.
Speaker 3:And this is Rebecca, so here we are, we are.
Speaker 2:It's been a big week for you. You've had a milestone birthday. Oh, the big five. Happy birthday.
Speaker 3:Thank you.
Speaker 2:What an accomplishment.
Speaker 3:Do you ever wonder, like how? Years from 40. And that blew my mind 14 years from 40. And our mind is just going. And we are just like we blew way past that birthday a long time ago. You know, it's been really interesting for me, because I go between both being grateful that I'm here, but then also angry that I'm here, yeah, and finally I decided it's okay if both are true.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:I was doing everything I could to make sure I'm graduated by the time I'm 50. And I'm not, and I tell myself it's okay, in the grand scheme of life it really doesn't matter. But for some reason it does kind of matter, and so I've been trying to figure out why.
Speaker 2:Well, one thing that definitely matters is the unfairness that graduating sooner wasn't an option for you. There's no shame in graduating after you're 50, but it's infuriating to know that you could have graduated so much sooner, but that roadblocks were put up to block you.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and like, sometimes I sit in classes with these kids and you know, when I started out there was maybe 20 years between us. Now there's almost 30 years between us and, dude, like some of the comments, I'm just like oh my god, grow up. Right like some of the comments, I'm just like, oh my god, grow up right, yeah, but but at least I'm almost finished and I'm not just starting so that's a good thing too and you know what?
Speaker 3:I have amazing friends and family and people have been so kind. Um, I got a lovely box from you. I, my sister, sent me something really fun. Oh my goodness. The girls from work were so kind, so there's a restaurant right across the street from where I work and they were like, hey, we should meet for breakfast before work next Saturday. And I'm like, yeah, why haven't we been doing this all along? Let's do it it. So I got there and I was running late and oh, they had champagne and gifts and oh, there was like a tiara for me to wear and it said 15 fabulous. And they had happy birthday little crown thingies. And then we get back to the winery and they had balloons up and ribbons up and all the fun things, I know, I know right.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's wonderful. Like I think it was probably one of the most lavish celebrations I have ever had, and I remember at first being like I don't know what to do with this, and then I'm like, oh honey, roll with it, it was actually fun.
Speaker 2:Oh well, I'm sure it was, and it's so often. You're the one who's doing that, you're the one throwing the party for others, you're the one sending the boxes. I know because I get them.
Speaker 3:Isn't that true for all of us? I mean, I think it's probably a fair statement for all of us especially us women.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but but you do excel. You excel at care packages and remembering people's important milestones, and so I'm so glad to hear that that they did that, because you deserve every every bit of it.
Speaker 3:Well, thank you, it was quite lovely and unexpected. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's awesome. What's been up with your week?
Speaker 2:What has been up with my week? Not a lot. Today this is Saturday when we're recording I was back on campus for Sigma Tau Delta induction ceremony. It's the English Honor Society, the local chapter, that had their induction ceremony. One of my colleagues organized it and so I just got to show up. And so I just got to show up. You have to have a GPA of 3.5 and be in, be either a junior or senior English major to be in this and then you can present at conferences and you're eligible for scholarships and you know kind of professional perks that go with it.
Speaker 3:Wait, do you have to pay to be part of it? Do I get letters?
Speaker 2:for this. Well, there is a National Honor Society that I kind of think everybody gets invited to. I'm not sure what's going on with it. I kind of think it might be a racket, maybe not, I just have a hunch, but probably not, because this is. It's all administered through local English departments, and so I think there are fees for getting involved. I think often English departments will cover that.
Speaker 2:But you know, every field has their student organization, and this is the one in English. So it's always fun to go see all the cool things that students are doing, and especially the ones who are graduating, you know, the ones that you know are going on to all kinds of great things. So, as we are heading into the last weeks of the semester, it's just going to be one event like this after another marking the time. So it's fun and it also is kind of sad. We were also recognizing one of my colleagues who is retiring. After teaching for 42 years he's. He has essentially been the English program here, so I don't know how we've we've been trying to function without him. He hasn't been as involved in the day to day running of, like you know, our meetings and that kind of thing this year. But we're gonna, we're gonna try to keep keep going without him anyway.
Speaker 3:Well, I have a feeling he believes your department is in good hands, mostly thanks to your capable, so I'm sure you've got amazing colleagues as well. But oh, I do, I do, but I'm sure you have it covered just fine. So wait though. How does this work If he was the head and he's leaving like, does that set you or somebody else up for promotion?
Speaker 2:Well, every institution is different. At ours, the chair of the program is it's pretty much just like a position where it certainly doesn't have any power. It has. You have some responsibility no power to organize meetings, to make sure that the right courses are being offered this semester and next semester, you know, to get those schedules all set, and so it's a herding cats kind of job, and most of the time he had it it came with a course release. That is changing now because of some of the structural changes that are being made, and so now what we're doing is we're divvying up a lot of his responsibilities. Unfortunately, we haven't been able to hire someone new, which has been the case for a lot of humanities positions, and so the expectation is that his work will get spread out among the rest of us who are still there, and we'll just absorb it. So I don't know we've been doing that for the last, how many folks who've left, and I don't know how long we can keep doing it. To be honest, we'll see. We'll see how it goes.
Speaker 3:Gosh, that's actually quite frightening, both as a college professor, so that has to be frightening for you, but it's also frightening to think of, as a student, those expectations and those demands being put on your own professor.
Speaker 2:Right, well, and also the opportunities that are going to be gone now. So, for example, one of the strengths of our program has been that we have a fiction writer, a creative nonfiction writer and a poet, and so for most schools of our size that's impressive to have that kind of a writing program. And so the hope is I mean there are others who could step in and offer classes, but there's probably not going to be room on the schedule for us once we teach the classes that we do have specializations in. So what that means now is that one of our journals have essentially gone away just because there's not been enough faculty to keep them going. Keep both of them going. There's also been well, and now he won't be teaching classes on creative nonfiction. His classes are very nature-based and his students are writing very much about the Midwest landscape he's the book he just published is all about. He's gone around different Midwestern states 12 Midwestern states and talked about the geography and written about it. You know, in this creative way. It's just beautiful, beautiful nature writing.
Speaker 2:And so students at our college now won't have the option of taking a creative nonfiction class, and if you're outside of English, I mean, I know there's often a perception like, well, what's the difference between literature and creative writing?
Speaker 2:We get a lot of messages like, well, why not, you know, just collapse it into one major. But I think the important thing is what the experience of being in, say, a creative nonfiction class gives a student, even if they're not an English major, even if they're not going to be a professional writer. How many of us have a dream of writing a book one day? And something like a creative nonfiction class is going to give so much opportunity for personal fulfillment and also develop professional writing skills too. So, aside from his contribution to the English major, it's a contribution to other parts of campus as well, and creating nonfiction is one of those things that I would encourage anyone, regardless of major, to consider taking, just because of what that can do for you personally to have that opportunity to explore and to tell your own story in a really powerful way where people will make their money.
Speaker 3:It's a more art-based way of writing and of exploring, and of being. It seems that capitalism would just be fine if we'd get rid of all of that nonsense.
Speaker 2:Uh-huh, yeah yeah. Sometime we should talk about the history of the liberal arts. And, on the other hand, it's such a short sighted way of seeing the stereotypes and, unfortunately, colleges have done a horrible, horrible job addressing those misconceptions and so it's very complicated. I have lots of big feelings and I know that's not what we're going to be talking about today, but we should definitely have a conversation sometime.
Speaker 3:Well, let's put it on the list, because I think I could probably have some big feelings about that. But while we're on the subject of another big feeling, in our last podcast, when I introduced my friend Gerald Mast, I said he teaches communications at Bluffton College. My dear husband pointed out that it is Bluffton University and this is very important to some people. Now, now, I doubt Gerald Mass would really care, but for those of you or those of us who do care, he teaches communications at Bluffton University and I guess that means I have a kid graduating from university, so I should care.
Speaker 2:I mean it doesn't make a difference in the degree, but you know, maybe it looks better on their certificate.
Speaker 3:Yeah well, my husband said that apparently it matters to some people because I was like sure thing, and he's like, oh, but it's not.
Speaker 2:No, and explaining the difference is is messy, messy, messy.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I think he tried and I think I've maybe tuned out about three minutes and yeah, that's a good thing to go to wikipedia for to uh, to find the explanation what the difference is. Well, university sounds much more european, so you know oh well, and it's, it's larger.
Speaker 2:that's the idea is that it's larger. It it's just a larger institution, but it does the same thing. It's just bigger and therefore, maybe, maybe, maybe better, yeah, depending on who you ask. So just different, I would say. But thank you for that clarification. You sent me a podcast this week that I found really interesting, and it turned out they were talking about something you wanted to hear more about.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so everyone should have someone like you in your in their lives. Whenever I see things like this, I'm always like I know nothing about this. What do you know? But I had. I was interested in the podcast because another friend had mentioned something to me previously, just sort of aware that it was out there, and that was the only reason I paid attention to it when this particular podcast came across my feed. But the podcast talked about CLEP tests.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm.
Speaker 3:And so I don't know what is it so?
Speaker 2:the official name is the College Level Examination Program Really creative title and then the acronym is CLEP. Clep, as it's described on their website. It's a program that's going to help you. Clep helps you receive college credit for what you already know, for a fraction of the cost of a college course, and these are college credits that are recognized at nearly 3,000 colleges and universities across the US. So it's a program that's been around since 1968. It well established and widely recognized, but doesn't have a great PR department, apparently.
Speaker 3:Well, I wondered about that, Because why have I never heard of it before?
Speaker 2:I was looking back at our notes and I saw we had it mentioned at one point and I guess I just thought we just never talked about it beyond that and I didn't realize that you didn't know.
Speaker 3:But to be fair, to be fair, my memory is a little bit like a squirrel, Like people who are like, yeah, I read this book by this author and they said this. That just makes my brain like I don't know whether to be impressed or whether to be like freaked out, Because I remember stuff I've read, but oh honey, I'm not going to remember your name.
Speaker 2:Yeah, oh, I understand, and I mean it's an acronym Like we come across. How many acronyms? If you don't have, it has no meaning for you, then of course it's only normal not to not to remember it. My hunch is that the reason you haven't heard of it is because no one is getting rich off of it, and so that's true.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it essentially is offering the kind of thing that an AP course advanced placement course offers in high schools, except that there's not a class associated with it and it costs way less. Yeah, but it doesn't have the infrastructure of AP to promote it right. You've got AP in every high school and CLEP is really designed for more adult learners, as the tagline says, helps you receive college credit for what you already know, and so AP is more directed at high school level students. But this is something I remember hearing about when I was getting started with college and I took I believe I took three CLEP tests. There was another class I was able to test out of and I ended up with 14 credit hours. So that was like a semester's worth of classes that I didn't take, which I had started as a part-time student and that allowed me to catch up and still graduate in four years. So it was really helpful.
Speaker 2:But the thing is, even when I was taking it, I kind of regretted missing out on the experience of being in those classes, like, I think the one I did. I think I did psychology and American history and I forget what the third one was, and those are classes I would have enjoyed just taking, just because I it would have been interesting, but I wanted to get the credits done more than I wanted that. So I think that's one of the reasons why I don't talk about it a lot is because I hate to see people miss out on what I think is the best part of college. So but but when we're talking about adult learners, we're talking about non-traditional students, first gen students. We all come from such a range of situations and I don't think it's a good idea to let the perfect be the enemy of the good. And so I can, you know, I can absolutely see why this would be a good option for some people.
Speaker 3:Another point is 14 credit hours probably saved you well in today's world would save you a couple thousand dollars too.
Speaker 2:Oh, yes, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3:I mean, that's, that's not small?
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's not. In fact, the podcast you sent me was really exciting because it's talking about how you can essentially do a whole year of college for free with CLEP Wow. So when I took my CLEP exams, I somehow got a hold of first year college textbooks for those courses. I remember I had a mentor and friend Well, let's see what she's a mentor and she was an employer and now she's a friend. It was a psychology professor who went through the textbook with me and said, okay, these chapters, this chapter, this chapter, this is probably going to be on the test, you know, and so I studied for it just by reading through a college textbook.
Speaker 2:So when you are internally motivated, maybe you're someone who's who does a lot of reading, that's probably the kind of person who'd be good fit for this. And especially someone who maybe is geographically limited, like they can't just get up and move across the country to go to college, or they really need to do something online and that's really their only option, or they don't have many options, or if it's someone who is wanting a taste of college level study before making a major investment of time and money and actually enrolling in college. If they're, you know wondering what is what is this really about? You know, is this a good fit for me? If they're wanting to know what it's like, you know what kinds of things they would be studying in a college class, a CLEP test might be a good way to get a sense of what they're in for.
Speaker 3:And on that note, I can see how it would be validating to be able to test out of particular classes. If you're questioning whether or not you have the skills to go Exactly, exactly, and it's like, if you can test out of one or two classes, it's like, well, if I can test out of it, certainly I'm smart enough to figure it out.
Speaker 2:Exactly, Exactly. And if you're concerned that you might need to do remedial classes or anything like that, then yes, it can give you a sense of where you are. So I think it's definitely something to look into early in someone's college career, because these are mostly general education courses and they're probably not going to count as courses in a major, but more your general education courses, which are, you know, often the focus of the first couple of years. Once you're in your senior year, that's probably not gonna it probably won't do you much good.
Speaker 3:So it wouldn't test you out of electives, correct, okay?
Speaker 2:And hopefully a person is going to have elective courses that they want to take. You know that. You know that are really focused on their major, focused on their particular interest and this will make you cringe.
Speaker 3:I talked to my guide counselor and I'm like you seriously, do not have one writing class I can sign up for. And she's like no.
Speaker 2:Oh my goodness, oh my goodness, that makes me so sad, that makes me so sad.
Speaker 3:And I think what I'm going to do is do what I did last semester was figured out what class I wanted, and then just I emailed the professor and said hey, they tell me I can't get into your class, but I really like to take it. Can you work me in?
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely. Tell them. You're telling me you're a senior, tell me you're about to graduate and that you've always wanted to take this class and this is your last chance, and that you've always wanted to take this class and this is your last chance.
Speaker 3:And you know what the funny thing is? Somehow it came up in an email conversation and I said oh, I just emailed the professor and asked and he got me in she would not respond to any more emails from me.
Speaker 2:Wait, who was this? Your advisor? Oh, your advisor.
Speaker 3:My advisor. Sorry Sorry, my advisor. Yes, I said the wrong. Yes, yeah, yeah, she won't reply to any more emails from me.
Speaker 2:That's funny. That's that's do you know how many?
Speaker 3:students she works with. Oh, oh, she has way too many students. I will be the first to. I mean, every time I talk to her, we first start off with a conversation about how many cases she has. Yeah, and I don't doubt she's overworked. I'm probably somewhere close to her age, closer to her age than the other students.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and I hear about it all the time and I have no doubt that it is the case. However, I'm your student. I don't care, I don't care, I don't care.
Speaker 2:That doesn't make a difference that doesn't make a difference.
Speaker 3:But you're absolutely right, I am sure she is way overworked.
Speaker 2:That shouldn't upset her. If anything, that should tell her that you are very capable of looking after yourself you are very capable of looking after yourself.
Speaker 3:I think it upset her because she told me I couldn't get in and she didn't tell me that I couldn't get into.
Speaker 2:I asked her why I wasn't in because she apparently has to sign me up and and I was like asking the professor is not that's that's, that's a totally normal thing, that's not really that's a totally normal thing, that's not really, that's not.
Speaker 3:I mean they can say no, I just got the sense that she felt like I went above her. That maybe I mean she told me no, she told me no and that wasn't good enough for me.
Speaker 2:Well, I don't care, that was the sense I got. That's totally legit to email the professor. Huh, I'm not saying she didn't get, but heard about it, but that's really her problem if she did.
Speaker 3:I wasn't feeling bad about it. I was like, honey, you don't seem to be able to get me anything I need. Exactly, I can fight my own battle here, exactly, exactly.
Speaker 2:Exactly 100%.
Speaker 3:So let's say that I am just starting to think that, you know, maybe I should start taking a couple of college classes and I am curious if I could test out of any of these classes. Where do I go or how do I find out more information?
Speaker 2:Okay. So this is where I got really excited about that podcast you sent me, because that's a good place to go and we'll link it in the show notes. It's your College Bound Kid is the name of the podcast, and it's primarily directed at parents of college bound kids and they're also very much focused on getting into elite schools, which I feel like that's not really our focus. But they interviewed someone from Modern States, which is a nonprofit organization that offers free courses to prepare for CLEP tests, and you enroll in them and once you've successfully completed a course, then they give you a voucher and you take that to a CLEP testing site and then that covers the cost of the CLEP test. And I'm not sure what CLEP test costs. It's under $100. I think it's 75. That sounds right. So which $75 to test out of a college course is a really good deal, it's a super good deal. Out of a college course is a really good deal. It's a super good deal. This is even better because you get a voucher to cover that cost.
Speaker 3:That's amazing, isn't it? So like it makes me sad that I did not somehow figure this out. And don't blame yourself, don't even go there. No, no, no, don't go there. That's amazing. I'm so happy that this is available.
Speaker 2:Right, right, I just I want to be clear. I preemptively grieve for all the people that I know who would absorb those classes like a sponge, who would love the kinds of discussions that are possible in a course. You know you're in a philosophy course right now. I have so many memories from the philosophy course I took in undergrad. It was the only philosophy course I ever took, but that was so helpful in making connections with things that I was learning in other classes and we were able to have conversations, and that experience is what is missing from online education. But but again, in the spirit of the perfect not being the enemy of the good, if this helps someone get into college, if this helps open doors, then I think it's a great option.
Speaker 3:And you know, to be fair, I hear what you're saying Because I think the beauty in some of these classes is it helps you think differently about the world, but even certain subjects.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:And even though you disagree, or you might disagree with some of the conversations, you have to kind of figure out why you disagree. So there's that critical thinking that's happening that I agree with you is valuable At the same time. If you can graduate in six years instead of eight years, that could really motivate me.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And if you do a handful of them and you go, oh wow, I'm good at this, I can do this, or maybe not even I'm good at this, but I can do this, I can figure this out Then that's really important too. So I can imagine a lot of different scenarios where this would be a really good option. I would just hate if anyone listened to us talk about this and would think this is a go-to substitute for college, say, a traditional age student who is being pressured to shortchange their education for somebody else's benefit. In a situation like that, that's just unfair to the student.
Speaker 3:And again, I think what this comes back to in a lot of ways is your own autonomy. Like the student, really should be able to weigh the pros and cons and decide if that is actually the path they wish to take Right.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 3:So, in other words, let's not put pressure on other people to do this.
Speaker 2:Thank, you Exactly. It's an option, it's not the only option. So I think going to the CLEP website, which we'll link in the show notes, is also a good place to go to get some information about this. We'll link to the Modern States website and that's the organization that offers the prep courses and then this is something you can also ask. This is something you can ask your admissions officer about, or Probably there's a testing site.
Speaker 2:I know I took it at a testing office of some kind at my undergrad institution. It's like I don't remember. I don't remember the details, but you just ask around until someone tells you. Also, I believe if you go on the Modern States site they list all the, or maybe it's on the CLEP website, but somewhere you can go online and you can see a list of all the institutions that accept CLEP tests. And I just want to give a word of caution, because I looked for the institution where I teach and it said that my institution does not accept CLEP tests and then I did a search for the name of the institution and CLEP test and it came up on our website. We do, but it's something like email us to find out which ones we accept for credit. So just because a school is not on that list of 2,900 institutions doesn't mean that they don't. It's worth asking about, and don't take the first no for an answer.
Speaker 3:The other thing that I think is important to point out here is so when you, as an adult student, enroll in college, there is some testing that the college will do automatically. Particularly for me, they did English and math just to make sure you were at some level.
Speaker 2:That you were prepared, that because it's not going to do you any favors to be put into a class if you're not prepared for it, and then you're going to have that F on your permanent record, right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but I think I thought what they were testing me for was this oh yes, don't let the two confuse you. They're two separate things. The testing the college is going to require is a placement testing of sorts just to make sure that you are prepared. Sorts, just to make sure that you are prepared, and I guess I assumed that that was the end of the testing options. I'm guessing your average college isn't going to offer information about this.
Speaker 2:Again, nobody's getting rich off of this and I took mine during the summer. I think you know between semesters, so you don't have to do it before you get to college. You can do it while you're in college if you work it out between semesters. But, yes, yes, and you know, and isn't that? Isn't that life it's like with so many things we look back and we don't know what we don't know until we have hindsight.
Speaker 3:At the same time, I do think it works out. And you know, it's easy for me to sit here when I'm just sick and tired of being in college and be like, oh my word, this would have been a game changer. Who knows that? It would have what if I hadn't done so well? And it would have convinced me that I'm not smart enough to do it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3:So I think it's easy to imagine that maybe things would have turned out differently, instead of just appreciating the way it did turn out and where you're at. And I think there's room for both, but I think I tend to go down the first path more quickly than just offering an acceptance and appreciation for where I'm at.
Speaker 2:Well, it's easy to imagine that the alternative was the right way. We were talking about that recently Right, it's easy to think that that other, the path not taken, was the one without any problems. Right, the one with smooth sailing. And the reality is that that's not a thing. And can I tie this back to what we're talking about? At the very beginning, you know the idea of turning 50 before you graduate from college, and without minimizing the harm of educational neglect, which is a real thing and hugely problematic, what's a beautiful thing is the tenacity and courage you had to fight through that, to fight through those barriers and to pursue the life you wanted. And the degree you'll graduate with is going to be a much richer and seasoned degree than all the 21-year-olds who went straight from high school, and you experienced college differently than they did. The learning that you brought to it, the experience you brought to it, made it a much richer experience for you. That makes it a thing of beauty in its own right, and that's like the most understated thing I've ever said.
Speaker 3:That's one of the kindest things I think you've ever said. I mean, no, that doesn't sound right either. It is an extremely kind thing to say and, I think, a very true thing that I think sometimes we often forget about in the middle of the fight and I think maybe no matter how we get there, we should be proud of ourselves.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly, and we can be proud of our accomplishments without kind of doing the silver lining thing that minimizes the harm that exists alongside it, right, and the path of joy is appreciating what is Right.
Speaker 3:Sometimes I think it's so easy to have this false positive where you have to Toxic positivity. Yes, yes, yes. Where you have to make it positive, yes, and I don't think that's good either. That's not good either.
Speaker 2:And that's what. I'm trying not to do.
Speaker 3:Right. I don't think either one of us is suggesting that Right. At the same time, I think it is easy to doubt ourselves Right and to to um, isn't it?
Speaker 2:is it about this thing we come back to again and again, where it's about holding both things in at once? You know, it's not about saying was this a good thing or a bad thing, but it's like here are the good things and here are the unfortunate things and I think about honoring the process too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yeah like there's certain, there's a certain richness and a certain acceptance. Maybe that comes in honoring the process for what it was Right, right, and it took me longer than I hoped. It took me way longer than I hoped, and I can come up with 1000 reasons it did, but those 1000 reasons aren't necessarily all bad.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:And it was my process.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 3:And I don't think it's a matter of it being the perfect process or the ideal process, even it was just the process, yeah. And I think learning to appreciate and respect. It has been good for me, because if you don't, you're going to also. I will drown in the sea of resentment, and that's not a fun place to be.
Speaker 2:Not at all.
Speaker 3:No one. No one wants to live with someone who's resentful.
Speaker 2:Or to be that person it's miserable, or to be that person Exactly.
Speaker 3:It's miserable.
Speaker 2:Yeah, Exactly, I agree, and I think it's great when we can see the range of experiences and range of paths and see them for the successes they are, without hiding the painful parts and acknowledging it all is what I mean. That's without hiding the painful parts and acknowledging it all is what I mean. That's really where the wonder is right. I mean, that's where the wow comes in, when you realize not only what you accomplished, but what it was in the face of Right.
Speaker 3:And I think 99.9% of our listeners can identify with this as well. You know so much of life. When it comes down to it, it's just simply about figuring it out. Most of us don't have a lot of it handed to us, Otherwise we're not listening to this podcast, Right? Most of us have had to figure it out.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 3:And sometimes you figure it out a little bit wrong, sometimes you figure it out a little shady, and sometimes it's like man, I'm the boss of today and it's all okay, it is all good, and at the end of the day, I think we can give ourselves credit because we're just figuring it out, and that's good enough too.
Speaker 2:Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Thank you for spending time with us today. The resources and materials we've mentioned are linked in the show notes and on Facebook at Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 2:What are your thoughts about college and recovery from high demand religion? We know you have your own questions and experiences and we want to talk about the topics that matter to you. Share them with us at Uncoveredbeyond at gmailcom. That's uncoveredlifebeyond at gmailcom.
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