Uncovered: Life Beyond
Join the conversations of Rebecca and Naomi, two ex-Amish Mennonite women who jumped the proverbial fence in their younger years and later experienced college as first-gen, non-traditional students. They discuss pursuing formal education while raising a family, navigating the hidden curriculum of academia, and other dimensions of reimagining a life beyond high-demand religion. Send your questions to uncoveredlifebeyond@gmail.com.
Uncovered: Life Beyond
56. Homeschool Roots, Global Vision: Patricia Lewis on Building a Life of Learning
Tricia joins Rebecca and Naomi to share her journey from homeschooled student to college graduate and beyond, offering valuable insights for first-generation students navigating higher education without traditional guidance.
• Following curiosity and determination despite lack of traditional educational pathways
• Navigating college applications and standardized tests without guidance counselors
• Balancing full-time work with educational pursuits
• Finding funding for undergraduate education through grants and scholarships
• The challenges of financing graduate education without institutional support
• The value of on-campus living for building social connections and networks
• Taking risks to teach in Texas and Japan after graduation
• The importance of maintaining identity through continuous learning
• How small steps build confidence for bigger life changes
• The reality that educational journeys rarely follow straight lines
• The value of asking questions and seeking information when facing obstacles
Keep bringing on your questions! Message us at uncoveredlifebeyond@gmail.com with your thoughts and experiences.
Connect with Tricia:
https://www.facebook.com/patricia.a.lewis
https://bsky.app/profile/hopenafuture.bsky.social
Thanks for listening! Connect with us via
- Facebook: Uncovered: Life Beyond
- Instagram: @uncoveredlifebeyond
- Email: uncoveredlifebeyond@gmail.com
- Website: https://www.buzzsprout.com/2171591
Subscribe (for free) to Uncovered: Life Beyond on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Google Podcasts, Amazon Music, or wherever you get your podcasts so you'll never miss an episode!
What topics at the intersection of education, high-demand religion, career, parenting, and emotional intelligence are of interest to you? Help us plan future episodes by taking this quick listener survey. We appreciate your input very much!
This is.
Speaker 2:Rebecca, and this is Naomi. We're 40-something moms and first cousins who know what it's like to veer off the path assigned to us.
Speaker 1:We've juggled motherhood, marriage, college and career, as we questioned our faith traditions while exploring new identities and ways of seeing the world.
Speaker 2:Without any maps for either of us to follow. We've had to figure things out as we go and appreciate that detours and dead ends are essential to the path Along the way, we've uncovered a few insights we want to share with fellow travelers.
Speaker 1:We want to talk about the questions we didn't know who to ask and the options we didn't know we had.
Speaker 2:So whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking things up. We are here to cheer you on and assure you that the best is yet to come. Welcome to Uncovered. Life Beyond. Hello everyone, Welcome back to Uncovered Life Beyond. This is Naomi.
Speaker 3:And this is Rebecca with our dear friend Trisha. I know you guys are all excited that we have her back on. It's like this bonus and we are thrilled to have you again, trish. Thank you so very much. Thanks for having me.
Speaker 2:So this all got started when Rebecca got a message from Trisha right.
Speaker 3:Yeah, so this is why you guys should absolutely be messaging us your questions and your thoughts and, honestly, it is so fun to receive messages from you all because I love having conversations and throwing around ideas. And when you guys messaged it's like just a continuation of the conversation, and Tricia messaged me some really amazing insightful ideas, questions, thoughts, and I'm screenshotting Naomi and I'm like, yes, yes, we need to talk about this. And Naomi says we need to invite her to the podcast and I said, yes, we do so, keep bringing on the questions. It's so much fun because, I mean, you know, Naomi and I can talk all day, but it's always fun to have new ideas and new insights and we so appreciate you doing this with us.
Speaker 4:Oh, thank you. Good to be here, Naomi and Rebecca.
Speaker 3:So today we're going to be talking more about your educational background and kind of how that all started, and I know that in many ways we will many of us will identify with parts of your story and we're excited to hear all about that.
Speaker 2:Thanks, Trisha. I think your initial messages to Rebecca were about grad school and we want to talk about that, but my first thought when she shared the message with me was I just have so many questions to even begin talking about grad school and grad school funding specifically. And then part of our thought too is that you've had the experience of being raised conservative Mennonite and then finding your way to college and beyond, and so that kind of trailblazing experience is so much in line with what we talk about here, and so I think it would be really, it could be really valuable for our listeners to hear your story. So why don't you tell us about your educational journey? And and then we'll get into the grad school funding question?
Speaker 4:Okay, I mean, my educational journey started, like a lot of kids, with, you know, elementary education. I started in public school and I went for, I think it was two years and kind of really excelled. But my parents I mean this was long enough ago, homeschooling was fairly new and my parents heard about it and so they actually pulled me and my sister out and then they homeschooled all of the rest of us. So I was homeschooled. I was homeschooled using the Christian light education materials which I think you guys referred to on earlier podcasts before, but they're they're like you're supposed to be able to read it and do all the work yourself. And yeah, it's, it's self-paced, which basically means as fast as you can read it and answer the questions, which I did great with that, because reading is always something I'm good at. I did great with that up until I started working in my dad's business and then it kind of was one of those where the work was more valued than education. I think Not that education wasn't at all, but that wasn't, I don't know. It was kind of that had to kind of balance the two workbooks and all that. But when it came to what I actually like, learned and helped me when I got to college. It was. It was all the books I read, and I read, I read voraciously ever since first grade. So that that's honestly kind of where it went for me. So I kind of had a and I don't want to say traditional path, because it wasn't the.
Speaker 4:You know, I didn't graduate from high school and go on to college like a lot of people did, because I was homeschooled and it was new. Yeah, that was actually kind of my own determination and I'm going to be honest, I don't know why I decided to go to college. I just knew. I don't remember not wanting to go and I also knew that that was usually what people did after high school. So that was just what I planned. It was hard when I was, you know, supposedly in high school. I had these high school workbooks that I wasn't getting done very well. The math was really hard. I struggled with understanding math by reading it, and then, you know, that was just hard for me. I never, I didn't do well with it. So I ended up kind of the long story short. I had public school friends and they told me about the ACT, which was a college entrance exam. So I said, oh well, I want to go to college, so I'm going to take it. So they picked up an application at school?
Speaker 3:Yeah question Did you do the ACT without getting your GED?
Speaker 4:I did the ACT junior year, like most people do, because I had friends who worked at the restaurant who were taking it that year and when they told me about it I was like, oh well, I should take that oh my gosh.
Speaker 2:Okay, so you were still okay. That makes sense that you would take that at that time in your junior year, yeah, that at that time in your junior year, yeah, and, and I don't want to. If I'm jumping ahead, then then just stick to it. But, um, did you, were you still able to finish high school at, uh, like on schedule or because? Because what you're talking about there's very familiar, and I say that not not from my own experience, but, like I know, I have family members where they were supposedly going to do high school and there was just always something else that needed to be done.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, well, yeah, I mean it kind of came down to yes, I do Very much. So I kind of came down to I turned 18. And I wanted to go to college and I'd taken the ACT and been accepted in colleges. So once I turned 18, I went to the local I don't know the adult education center and I told them I wanted to take my GED and I in order, and I can't remember how it worked. I had to do like some kind of study thing and if I did the study thing I could take the GED for free for the one time. Like I got one shot at it for free and I was like, oh, okay, that's cool Because, yeah, I'll do this study thing and get it. So I never did. I'll be honest, for years in college, maybe even after, I felt a little like an imposter because I was I was a high school dropout I never finished those workbooks. For years I actually had them so that if I ever like, if I ever wanted to, I could, you know, actually go back and learn them.
Speaker 2:That's the stuff of dreams like, I mean, like bad dreams Waking up and learning. Oh, your, your college degree has been revoked because it turns out you didn't finish high school.
Speaker 3:Yes, Well, the other thing, the other thing that I think is kind of interesting and it's kind of a sidebar, but I also think it's kind of important.
Speaker 3:I have a lot of not positive things to say about CLE, but for those of us that it kind of worked for, I think it taught us how to be fiercely independent and how to figure it out, Like almost independent, to a fault. And for those who it didn't work for, it was horrible and I I I am so sorry about that. Like it's it's. It's a bad setup, but, but I excelled and it fed my independence and I learned how to just figure it out, and I kind of hear you saying that too learned how to just figure it out, and I kind of hear you saying that too.
Speaker 4:I definitely figured stuff out and yeah, it's funny because at the time it was just I want to go to college. So anytime if I'm honest, it was anytime my friends who were working at my dad's restaurant were telling me what they were doing at school to get ready for college. I'd be like, okay, I want to do that too, and I kind of that's kind of just what I did. So I took the ACT and then, when I turned 18, I got my GED because I was accepted at colleges. But of course that required some kind of graduation and I was like, even if I had finished all of the workbooks I mean, cle does give a diploma if you go through their program but it wasn't like I'm in Ohio and it's not an Ohio diploma and I was like I don't know that that's going to work.
Speaker 4:So if I'm going to have to do the GED anyway, maybe this is it is. In some ways I'm like this is a really bad example for others. But I was like I'm going to have to get my GED anyway. So why? Why do the you know, the extra books when I can pass the GED, I can get there. I'm already accepted into college.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so that's what I did. Good for you.
Speaker 4:I was like I don't and I mean, yeah, so I just quit doing schoolwork, I went and got my GED and I went to college.
Speaker 2:That's okay, that's awesome. Did you have any concern that that you were ready for college or not, that you know that you were prepared, that you could do the work? And I guess the no, no, no, no, no, no, no. Look, I'm not, I'm not questioning what?
Speaker 3:which?
Speaker 2:you did Because, like I, I remember, I remember the stories, but I guess what I'm saying is I know that there's so many of us who experienced some level of self doubt, even if we want to go to college, and I'm gonna- guess that whatever the results of your GED were, that must have given you some confidence. The results I'm guessing you got must have given you some confidence. But I guess I'm also curious, kind of in that same vein on what basis were you accepted to those colleges?
Speaker 3:Well, and I don't think it's been, I don't think it's been said, and maybe an assumption is made at this point, but you were a first gen student right, yeah, my parents hadn't been to college.
Speaker 4:They both had high school diplomas.
Speaker 3:Okay, because I don't think that was stated at this point yet. So I just wanted to clarify that.
Speaker 4:Right, yeah, yeah, I didn't have my parents who'd been there before helping me figure it out, but and that makes a difference it does. So the reason. I'm going to be honest I wasn't extremely. I wasn't extremely concerned with my readiness, but it was partly because when I took that ACT test, I did better than any of my friends did.
Speaker 4:I had a friend who was in the honors course at a local university. Yeah, I think his score was a couple points lower than mine, and so I was like cool, so okay, so I can handle this If he can be in the honors courses. And he told me he's like if you did that, you need to be in the honors courses. And then we had discussions about books and stuff. And he's like, yeah, you're good. So I had that stuff. And he's like, yeah, this is you're good. So I had that feedback. And then I mean the GED I did well enough, I got a scholarship. It wasn't huge, but I got a scholarship for college through that too, so awesome. I mean, looking back on it, I don't regret it at all Because, yeah, that helped, that helped with the scholarships and paying for it. So I had.
Speaker 4:I also got some academic scholarships because of that that score. But the reason I said that it was a really good question was because I did have feedback. My mom, who was in charge of my homeschooling and knew that I had basically just not been doing the work. She said I'm, I'm concerned that, not that you're not smart enough, but I'm concerned you don't have like that, you don't have the discipline and you don't have the. You know I don't have, I don't know if you have what it takes and I'm worried about essentially you going and spending all this money and you know what are you going to do if it, if it doesn't go well, I'm just stubborn enough that my mom saying that to me made me bound, like I was bound and determined that I was going to prove her 100% wrong.
Speaker 4:And I mean I did. But I think that characteristic of myself was probably one of the reasons that I did do well and, as silly as it might sound, her pushback a little bit of, and I mean she had reasons for it. I did struggle keeping up with all of the bookwork at home. I did struggle keeping up with all of the book work at home, doing it in that method. School's different, college was totally different.
Speaker 4:And I did not struggle. But I also understand where she was coming from. She didn't know anything else. She hadn't been to college to know how different it was. So I kind of I want to give her a little grace in that that I think her question and concern were I think they were at least reasonable for what she knew.
Speaker 3:I think we should pause, though, and just point out and this I'm really concerned about this, as, as we keep getting rid of immigrants, I'm seeing more and more attempts to pass laws that kids can be hired younger and for working, to work longer hours, and I cringe and I actually want to cry a little bit about it. Mm, hmm, let's be honest about how hard it is to go through high school and be working and supporting your family. Like, let's be real, and I don't believe in shaming anybody, but I will shame someone who votes to pass those laws. I mean, talk about perpetuating the system of poverty. Like, let's be real.
Speaker 2:And let's be real that the people making those policies are darn sure making sure their kids don't have to work through high school and they're making sure their kids, their own kids, are going to college and getting those liberal arts degrees that they denigrate.
Speaker 4:Yeah, no, absolutely.
Speaker 3:They want, they want other people's kids working Well and they're benefiting. They're benefiting off of having the poor kid work for them.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yes, that's true. And, to be fair, I was working pretty close to full-time, if not full-time, for most of my high school years. Yeah, I look at that and I'm like a teenager working full-time, being expected to do book work too, when I look at what I did in college, because I kind of did that in college too, because I paid most of it as I went and I went to a private university, so I wasn't just going the cheapest route, but I had the advantage of our family wasn't extremely rich and I was the oldest of eight kids. So I got some of the grants and I had academic scholarships. It's huge, it's a really big deal to get those and that covered that covered somewhere between half and two thirds, depending on the year and how many credits I took. So then I didn't have as much of it to cover, but I did.
Speaker 4:I also worked during college. So, like it's a really mixed bag for me, because that work, that work ethic that I, yeah, I developed and I have still have a good work ethic it helped me, but it also led to me not doing great in high school. It did. That is why I didn't finish up my high school work Right. So yeah, it's, it isn't good. I would not want. In fact, I've told my kids they don't need to work during college or during school. College might be different during school. If they are, you know, if they want to, that's one thing, but it's not. They don't have to to help a family, the family out, because I know how hard that was on me.
Speaker 2:And I wasn't able to do. Well, and I think that's something that a lot of well, first generation immigrants, but also I think that's the Amish, conservative, mennonite experience is that the expectation is that kids are going to help out the parents and they're going to give money home, send money home, and they're going to give money home or send money home, and high school is an option if there are no obstacles, but it's the bottom of the list and I know I mean that's why you weren't getting your work done, not because you didn't have the drive. It's such a familiar scenario, I think.
Speaker 3:And it's such a familiar scenario, but it's also such a unfair isn't even the right word. It's a double bind Like how are you going to win at that?
Speaker 2:Right, because it's the older generations expectations that are setting that they're preparing you for a different world than the world they lived in, and so it's like we're being set up with expectations, we're being set up with the education for a previous generation, but then we're going to have to find our way in the world we actually live in and then, if you make it, you're applauded for pulling yourself up by the bootstraps, which is bullshit applauded for pulling yourself up by the bootstraps, which is bullshit.
Speaker 2:So, tricia, I'd love to hear about how you chose, the college you chose, and just kind of the nitty gritty of kind of how you got there.
Speaker 3:What was that?
Speaker 2:process like. What was the process like? Because I think for folks who have always known they're going to college or you know the family expected them to, we know we have more or less an idea of what that process looks like. But for those of us who are interested but have no idea how to get there, you know it's just kind of. You know we don't have that guidance counselor at school that's telling us what to do next, right, so? Or parents bugging us to fill out applications or whatever it is. So I know for myself it was a matter of just doing. Well, I guess next thing Okay, now, what do I do next? Now, what do I do next? You know at every step of the process. But I would love to hear how did you choose the school you ended up at and what was that process like?
Speaker 4:Okay, so I really didn't know a lot about schools at that point, but once you take the ACT you tend to get a lot of mailers, especially from private universities.
Speaker 3:Especially if your grades, especially if your score is like Trisha's was.
Speaker 4:Yeah, maybe that might make a difference. I mean my, my son, just well, he took his and he's gotten like so much mail. I'm like I don't remember it being quite so overwhelming then, but it may have been.
Speaker 2:Oh, this is well, and I can tell you from the college perspective many institutions right now are petrified of enrollment dipping. So, yeah, yeah. So they want your son, they want your son.
Speaker 3:Actually can we just can. I ask this question yet, naomi? What is the ACT? Because I bet there's people listening who have no idea what the ACT is. So let's talk about what the ACT is and what are. Like this question I don't know what is the the rate? Of course well, what's the what's the score that makes colleges start being like, oh, like when? When do colleges start paying attention?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so well, okay, yeah, the ACT. The ACT and the SAT are two college entrance exams and it's just, it's a. These are two standardized tests. Some parts of the country use one more than the other, but you can take either or both, and it's intended to be this kind of objective measure of preparedness for college. Now, whether or not it actually reflects that is a different issue, but it's it's. That's very difficult to quantify, and so those scores are kind of the best that is available to figure out where a student is in terms of readiness, of readiness. So when many high schools have it set up for their students to take the ACT or SAT, like in their junior year.
Speaker 4:You can even take a pre SAT or ACT, but if you're not attached to a high school, you can just Google it. I mean, that's what I did. I was pre Google and found out where in my area it was being administered and I just went and took it and can get a better score. And I was like I got into all the colleges without doing better. Why should I spend my money? And that was like I look back on it and I'm just like that was so stupid, but I didn't know. Um, but I was like I got into college without taking it again.
Speaker 3:I'm not going to spend the 70 to take it again, yeah, but and I think in most states, and I shouldn't maybe say most in Ohio, how it works is in your junior year everyone takes the ACT which, if you're in a school if you're in a school system, right, trisha, you referenced to that. In our district, the smart kids take the SAT Like it's kind of more an invitation only, because I think those scores reflect something within the school system maybe.
Speaker 2:I mean, I have a sense that I know at one time the SAT included a written essay, I think now the SAT has that option.
Speaker 4:okay, it does now it didn't use to Okay.
Speaker 2:Yes, but it was what was available or it was the, I guess, the school that I was planning to go to and I took mine like nine years after I'd finished high school, and I finished high school early, so I was in my mid twenties, so I and I had not really had much time to study either. And just kind of like what you were saying earlier, tricia, that like all the reading you credit, all the reading you did for your academic success, and that's that's me too. And I got a pretty good score. Now I was taking it so close to enrolling I I didn't get those invitations I got. I got a better score than I expected, but I wasn't those invitations. I got a. I got a better score than I expected, but I wasn't.
Speaker 2:I realized now like I I only applied to one school because it was affordable and and I I see now in retrospect that I really limited myself. I mean I had a good experience and glad I went. Don't regret that. But at the same time I realize now I had way more opportunities than I thought I did so.
Speaker 4:And then to the question that Marilyn asked as far as the range. She mentioned the range and when do colleges start like wanting you to attend. I think that varies some by college.
Speaker 3:Well, so the high score on an ACT is a 36. Uh-huh.
Speaker 2:I think, when I mean I'm not involved, really, in admission, well, I'm not involved in admission decisions at my institution. My sense is, though, like if it's below a 25, getting down into the low 20s, you might want to take it again, but you could still get accepted. My sense is like, even at a 21 you can get accepted. Um, it's, but the thing is that it's just part of the picture, it's not the whole picture. So, like if you, for example, say you have a score that's fairly low or lower, or just average, but if you have other things that you're talking about in your application, in your application essay, and talk about you know your background, your unconventional background, that can make a difference. Well, at least in the context of affirmative action, those things are taken into consideration. Now. Now I'm not sure how it works Technically.
Speaker 4:There's there's still going to be some level of if you're involved in your community, if you're involved in your school. Unique experiences are still going to be desirable maybe not in the same ways, I think, but I suspect those that's what colleges are still looking for. They're looking for the kind of person who's going to be a learner.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly, yeah, so was the school you went to, one of the ones that sent you a flyer, a brochure, after you took the ACT.
Speaker 4:I think so. I actually knew about the college because when I was a young teen, I think, my Sunday school teacher's I think daughter was attending at that college. So when you sign up to take the ACT you can send your scores to different colleges and I basically put down the colleges I knew which at that point. That was one of them. There was one that's kind of local and that was the one that my friend was attending, the one that the friend that I told you was in the honors course. So I sent my my scores to that college. And then there's a college that was close to my grandma on my dad's side that I think it was my dad mentioned might be a good option because I could possibly live in the area with my relatives and might be a little bit cheaper if I could do something like that. So I I remember sending it to those three schools and then I ended up visiting those schools and um I think I may have and I'm sort of trying to remember, you know, 25 years ago, um more, but I think some of them kind of sent me sort of conditional acceptance letters and stuff like that um encouraged me to make you know, to plan college visits. So I went and visited all the colleges which my parents drove me there. I arranged the visits but they took me, I think. So the one of them I ruled out because it was too close and I could live at home and I strongly suspected if I stayed at home I was going to be expected to prioritize, you know, the family business over my education. I don't, I don't know how true that would have been, but I have a feeling, even if my parents hadn't necessarily expected it, I would have felt that conflict because of the, you know, the family loyalties and my desire for college would have conflicted the cultural default yes, yeah, yeah. And and I, I think I knew enough to recognize that that wasn't necessarily going to be if I wanted to prioritize college, that wasn't going to be the best way for me to go.
Speaker 4:I ended up going to the one that my Sunday school teacher's daughter had been had attended and it was partly well so. So the one the other, further one was more expensive and they didn't and they offered similar like. I would have paid a similar amounts maybe, after all of the like, scholarships and stuff, but um, it was one of those where the one was a little bit cheaper. They also had computers computers in every like every dorm room and the other one. You had to bring your own computer and I was like I don't have one and, practically speaking, this is going to be a big, a big tool for me. So, yeah, so that was a factor for me to, just as a matter of fact, that I didn't have the resource to take my own computer as small or silly as that was was, it was a factor.
Speaker 2:Yeah, understandable, and I think that's usually how those decisions end up working out. It's like a constellation of factors, yeah.
Speaker 3:And let me just point out, for young Tricia that wasn't small and that wasn't silly, that was very real, practical it was yeah, I mean, we couldn't all afford computers then. I mean that was now. We just hope for refrigerators in a dorm room, but back then, back then having a computer was a real thing.
Speaker 4:We didn't have laptops then. Right, yep, the actual college experience. I ended up only staying on campus for about not quite two years it was a year and a half and then, just financially speaking, I recognized that I had, I had the option to save a lot of money if I lived off campus and rented. I had some interesting experiences with that, but it did end up saving me quite, quite a lot when it came to you know, expenses, and it also meant that it meant that my off-campus jobs also were a little bit easier to to manage.
Speaker 2:So, yeah, can you say more about that? Um, you mean that, were they more flexible than the on-campus jobs, or did pay better, or no?
Speaker 4:I, I had both. Okay, I had on-campus jobs, I had multiple on-campus jobs, but because they very bluntly, because they are intended to work with students and around student schedules, the hours tend to be pretty limited. So, even though I was doing a couple of jobs, like, one of them was like I don't know, two hours a week and the other one was maybe five hours a week. Oh, I get it, yeah, okay.
Speaker 4:So it was one of those like I don't know two hours a week and the other one was maybe five hours a week, oh yeah, Okay, so it was one of those like that wasn't going to cut it to cover, you know, the rest of my expenses. So I, I had, I had at least one. I worked weekends, so I would, you know, I drive to my off campus job and work on the weekend and that's just what I did. It was how I paid for, you know, food Anyway, but it worked out fairly well for me.
Speaker 2:But how did you find living on or off campus to affect like your social life or like that experience? Because I know for me, since I started in my mid 20s, so there was already kind of an age factor between me and most of the students age difference, but probably even more than that since I'd already had work experience and everything you know. I was just in a different life stage and so I never even considered living in the dorms, but then I also feel like I missed out on a lot of friendships and networking that I would have got with the more conventional experience. How did that work?
Speaker 4:for you. So even when I was off campus, I had a lot of the friendships already established. So I had those, you know, those friend groups and relationships and stuff. So that actually it actually worked out really well for me in that regard. But when it comes to, like my, my son, I actually am encouraging him to spend a year on campus for sure, because, yes, it makes a big difference in getting to know people and I mean, those were my peers, even though, yes, I had very different experiences, life experiences and stuff from them.
Speaker 4:I remember and this would have been my senior year went on it. It was like a fun trip. I think we went to Cedar Point or something and I remember hearing a couple of the girls talking in the bathroom about and I don't remember what it was but something to do with like the money for the, for this trip or whatever. And I was. I'm, I'm like there as someone who is, you know, spending money that I earned at a job that I worked, and chuckling at their like comments about what, what they had, and their limitations with their budget, when their, their parents are, you know, giving them spending money and it just made like it was just like you know, I feel like I'm in. I'm in a totally different world.
Speaker 4:So there were, like there were benefits and I did get to know friends, but there were also some really big like differences and and sometimes I felt them more than others. Sometimes I didn't, sometimes I just kind of ignored them. You know, I had friends who didn't have to work a job and were fully funded, and I had friends who were working just as much as I was and I think I don't know, it might be me and my personality or it might just be that flexibility and it was. It was kind of cool though we had yeah, I have a lot of variety, but that's good.
Speaker 2:I mean, and isn't that what college is supposed to be about, you know, getting exposure to people who are different, who've grown up differently, who have different life experiences.
Speaker 2:all that, yeah, that's great, yeah that's great, that's good and I guess the reason I ask about that is because that's something I have found myself emphasizing to some of my students who maybe the person, the family, go to college and often, but there's just a real tension between, on one hand, there's very good reason for them to be giving their job the time and attention, the energy right that they are and at the same time, I want to say look, education is not just about a grade Like college, is not just about going to class and doing the work, but it's also about developing your professional network too, Right, right, and social social network too.
Speaker 4:Yes, yes, social skills, social network and maybe, especially as a coming from homeschooling, which I mean, yes, I had the social socialization at work, but there's, you know, there's different socialization skills when you're at work versus, you know, in college and in a professional and a professional setting too. So, yeah, for sure it was different, it was valuable. I would say yeah. So I do feel, even though, yes, I did move off campus and that was helpful financially for me, having already developed a lot of those friendships was actually really helpful to make that work well and still get the benefits.
Speaker 2:So that's kind of smart way to do it. I don't yeah yeah, well, you know, even if it does cost more, it's worth it to have that. And then if you, if you just do that for part of the time, you know, then you don't um, you can still get the benefit of it, even if you live, yeah, off campus later.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but I also hear you talking about um doing what you know, but paying attention and changing as it made sense. Yeah like and I think that's so important Just just the art of paying attention and kind of following your own path when it makes sense to do so. Mm hmm, yeah.
Speaker 2:So I'm curious about what you majored in. I'm curious about you know any surprises that? Or you know like maybe things that you expected about college that didn't pan out the way you did, or or like the things that you thought were going to be challenges and then weren't, and vice versa. So any surprises. But then also like how did you decide what you're going to do then after college?
Speaker 3:And how did you even go about choosing your major?
Speaker 4:So I went into college because I always wanted to write and I thought it would be really cool if I could make a living, as you know, writing. So I went in. That was actually another factor to choosing a college. They had a professional writing major. I did not graduate with a professional writing major, however, because I had always wanted to write books. It was, I think it was my second year, and I would pour over the course offerings and figure out what I wanted to take and what I needed to take, and I think I made my job the job of my counselor, like what I'm supposed to be taking really easy, because I always knew exactly what I wanted to do, had a pretty good idea of what was offered, that kind of thing. But there was a course it was for education majors and it was about children's literature and I wanted to write children's. I was thinking, maybe you know young adult, whatever, like early readers to young adult novels somewhere in there, and I was like this would be a great class for me to take, to know what teachers are looking for, because then if I go to write a book, I can write something that's you know that they're going to be able to use. That was my thought. It was in the education department and you had prerequisites. And of course I'm not studying education and I have none of the prerequisites. But I really want to take that class. So I asked my counselor you know, can I do this? And they said, well, you have to get permission from the teacher. I was like, okay, I'll try that. So I think I emailed and I got permission to take it. That was fine. I don't think the class was super full, yeah, so I took the class, we went in and she went over like the syllabus and here's what we're doing and you have your first assignment do.
Speaker 4:The next class and it was to it was to look at some children's books and come up with teaching ideas. And I was like, oh, this is where those prerequisites are really helpful, because I don't know what she's looking for. So I just went after class and I said, hey, I'm the one who got permission to join the class. I don't have the prerequisites and I'm not sure what you're looking for. Can you give me some direction or some help so that I you know, so that I can go ahead and do this assignment and do well on it? And she had a great suggestion. She said why don't you just go ahead and read the books and come up with whatever you come up with, and then I can. Then I can see what you like, what you have, what you put out there and we can you know. Then I can help you, direct you whatever way you know to help you with what you're trying to do with this course. I was like, oh, that's a great idea. I mean, she's a teacher, right, it's a good idea.
Speaker 2:So I know where you are, where your starting point is yeah right.
Speaker 4:So I went, I got the books, I read the books, I wrote down teaching ideas, turned in the assignment and she pulled me aside after class and said can I use these as examples for my students? And I'm like I thought you were going to give me direction and do this, but sure. And then she asked me have you ever considered being a teacher? And I was like nope, never have. And that was at that point she said you really should. I don't remember what all it was. By the time I was done with the class I was like yeah, I'm going to go ahead and switch my major this because it was children's literature, which is what I love and I was like this is awesome and I would love to do it.
Speaker 4:It was not without bumps in the road, because one of my methods classes for whatever reason. I mean I didn't have classroom management skills because I'd never observed it and that's not one of the things they really teach you. So when I got put in a public school that had I think it was second graders and the teacher was a guy who had his classroom managed by raising his voice. And I don't have that kind of voice, especially as a young. You know what?
Speaker 4:would I have been like 19, 20?. I didn't have, I didn't have, I didn't have a teacher voice at all. He told me so my, my professor was the one who came in to observe me in the class and he told me I was going to fail. And I reacted to that about the same as I did to my mom and said no, I will not. And I remember actually going with with one of my friends to his room for office hours and I said essentially I'm not willing to fail, I do not want to fail, but I need your help. I need you to help, help me know what I need to do. And I was careful to do everything he said and I passed, but not with. Like it was passed without recommendation or something. I don't remember what it was. That was the only class I had any issues with, but yeah, so yeah.
Speaker 2:What happened to this and then and then that that one class was like the end of all your dreams? I mean it's a silly question, because I don't know the answer because but I think it's important to know, like you know like that can happen and you can still be totally fine like that can happen, and you can still be totally fine.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, it was.
Speaker 4:I learned a little bit. First of all, I learned little like. Younger kids aren't really where I am most able to do well, not in a classroom setting I can do fine with them one-on-one or small groups, but in a like a larger classroom. That's where I struggled. So, even though my licensure technically is first through eighth, that I got.
Speaker 4:Then I knew leaving, leaving college, I wasn't going to be looking for like a first, second, third grade classroom. I liked having the licensure so that if I got into a situation where I absolutely needed to, I could do something with it. But yeah, it was. I knew that wasn't where, that wasn't where I was going to be focusing, that wasn't where my gifts were, but that's. I took it as a learning experience, not a you're done. You're no good as a teacher Because that's great. At that point I did. I did have enough people who were telling me you know, you've got what it takes as a teacher. I just learned that classroom management, especially with littles, is not my strength. So I had to learn from it, which was, yeah, that's kind of the idea.
Speaker 4:So yeah, so yeah, I ended up graduating with an elementary education degree and then I just applied. Well, they had a. It was a Christian school, so they had Christian schools that came and like interviewed, teaching like students interviewed at a couple of the schools. I ended up. I ended up moving to Texas because why not? I was single and I was. I had a graduate, like I graduated, and so I could do fun stuff. One of my dreams was to teach in China, which I ended up not ever doing, but I did go to Japan for a couple of years too. So I did leave college with some debt, but it wasn't too much. So I paid that off in about five-ish years, even on a Christian school salary.
Speaker 2:So anyway, yeah, Wow, so you were teaching at a Christian school then, and Christian school in Texas brings all kinds of images to mind, but also just because that can mean so many different things, right, was this urban? Was this West Texas? Was this? What kind of a.
Speaker 4:It was in the Panhandle. Yeah, it was in the Panhandle. It was right in downtown Amarillo.
Speaker 2:Amarillo oh, I've driven through. Amarillo so many times.
Speaker 4:Okay, yeah, so I lived. I lived just a little off Route 66.
Speaker 3:So Okay, yeah, how many years were you there?
Speaker 4:Two I was there for two years.
Speaker 3:Wow.
Speaker 4:And I taught middle school English yeah, english and reading. It was fun. I ended up doing a computer class too, which was kind of fun. So I was there yeah, I was there the two years. It was kind of a downtown school. There were lots of church kids and then there were some local. One of the big things they did was they kind of offered it to kids in the neighborhood to they have like scholarships and stuff. So there was. It was an interesting mix of, you know, students and different people in places. So it was really good. It was really cool because the only people I knew when I went there were the people who interviewed me. So I started like I started completely from scratch and getting to know people and making friends. It was. It was truly a really. It was really good. It was probably really good for me too because, you know, I expanded my horizons a lot, learned a lot yeah.
Speaker 3:So it was really good. Learned a lot. Yeah, so it was really good. You know, I don't think we talk enough about how the art of doing that type of thing is so valuable, and I think maybe especially for women.
Speaker 3:It kind of it teaches you confidence, it teaches you life skills, but you also learn that you can figure it out Like and even if you make mistakes, which you will it's okay like, like you learn how to pivot, you learn how to um consider your next moves and um I, I'm, I just think the, the ability to do that is something oftentimes females especially don't get, and I think it's so valuable.
Speaker 2:But the encouragement, yeah. The encouragement, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3:That's great.
Speaker 2:So go ahead.
Speaker 4:I was just going to say so from Texas.
Speaker 4:Yes, from Texas. So I wanted to. As I mentioned, I wanted to teach in China and I actually interviewed with an organization that had English schools in China. But in order to go, it was a limited salary, which meant my college loans were kind of a barrier and I had to. They paid for the return trip but I had to pay for the original trip. So I was like, ok, this was kind of my goal and I was like, if, if that's where I'm headed, then I'm going to have to find something like I'm going to have to find a better financial situation to get there.
Speaker 4:So I ended up moving back to my parents hometown and I got it. I applied for jobs in public schools, but none. I didn't get any of those positions at that point which I was on my provisional license and I had only two years of teaching experience in another state, so I'm not terribly surprised. I didn't have anything super like great for as far as a teaching licensure and I also didn't know how to do all of the application for public schools. I did great with private schools because I went to a private school, private college, and they helped with that schools because I went to a private school private college and they helped with that when you know that language better too, probably Like there's a language there that you knew- Right.
Speaker 4:So but I did get a job in another private school where I was making a little bit more than I did in Texas and because I could live with with family, I had lower like living expenses. So I got kind of close to getting to where I wanted to be. But then, so someone who's still friend today was dating my. It was actually she was my roommate for a while, so he's dating my roommate. And he asked me, he found out I was interested in China. He said, well, have you ever considered Japan? And I was like, well, I hadn't really why. And he said, well, I have a friend who's recruiting. And I was like, okay, hadn't really why. And he said, well, I have a friend who's recruiting.
Speaker 4:And I was like, okay, but you know, I know that I don't have money saved up to go. And he's like, no, they pay for, they pay for it, they pay for the round trip, they pay for the like. You get paid when you're there. And I was like, oh, so tell me more about it. So he told me more about it and I interviewed for it and I got a position there. So I ended up in Japan and then, you know, it was there while I was over in Japan that my husband and I met and all that happened. So Wow, but that, that experience, that experience of moving to Texas and like starting in a whole new place, hmm, I think it's part of why I was comfortable and confident enough to go ahead and say, yeah, yeah, sure, let's do Japan. Okay, well, and we say, yeah, sure, let's do Japan.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, and when you? Yeah, I don't know. I feel like I'm just repeating things we've said, but they're so important, like you know, taking those small steps really gave you courage to take the next step. You know, yeah, and yeah, yeah and I say small steps in retrospect they were smaller than the next steps you were going to take. But I guess I think that and maybe I'm just particularly anxious, but you know the stories we were told growing up about. You know the dangers here and the dangers there.
Speaker 2:You know well, one of my dreams was to live in New York City. It was always like in the moment, like I was so cautious, you know, and so I just think that's really admirable and I think it's such a great example of how you know to step out, do the next, take a small risk out, do the next take a small risk and then, if that works out, you'll be more confident to do the next risky thing. And warnings about being cautious are valid, but at the same time, it doesn't mean you can't, doesn't mean you can't do it and have a good experience. I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 3:Oh, go ahead, I was going to just even. If something does go wrong, it doesn't mean that you weren't cautious enough or you stepped outside of God's will or whatever. That's just life.
Speaker 4:And it could be a learning experience. What do I learn from this? How do I do better?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so from Texas you got a hot ticket to Japan.
Speaker 4:I mean with a couple years here in Ohio.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and you were there for how many years? Three years.
Speaker 4:Yeah, pretty close to it.
Speaker 3:Yeah, yep, tell us just a little bit about that. I mean, it wasn't a mission trip. We don't know what to do with this.
Speaker 4:I was teaching English in public schools in Japan. It was kind of a I don't know. There was some missional-ish aspects to it, because the organization I was with was headed by a guy who had come over to the United States and gone to college and he had been saved and then he went back. He actually started the church in the town where we all were kind of centrally located and he also did a. It's a Juku, which is like a tutor, an afterschool tutoring, where he he hired someone from uh, from here in the united states, to come over and and tutor the kids in english, which some of the local schools were so impressed with how well they did with that. They said, well, could you get, because all of the public schools have a native english speaker to help with english, um language teaching? And so they said you know, could you find people like that to you know, to be the English teachers in our schools? So that's what was going on was he was looking for people to do the teaching English in the local public schools and that's what I did. So I did that.
Speaker 4:It wasn't quite three full years, because I got married in the like the summer break between my second and third year and then when I, then when I got pregnant, um, after since we were married and got pregnant, they actually cut short the the year for us a little bit so that we could come back, so that we would have medical like the medical treatment here in the U S. So that was, that was my Japan experience in very, very briefly. It was a lot of fun, I'm sure it was and challenge and a challenge, both. It was really good.
Speaker 3:So you know I always forget. Did you speak Pennsylvania Dutch growing up?
Speaker 4:No, my mom knew it and she would talk a little bit, but I didn't learn it too much. Okay, actually, that's a funny story. It kind of goes back to that college experience and homeschooling. Yeah, since I homeschooled, I didn't get a language in homeschooling. There wasn't really a great way to learn it. So when I got to college, one of the things was because I hadn't had two years of language in high school, then I needed a year of language in college.
Speaker 4:So I started out with Spanish because I'd actually learned a little bit of Spanish before sort of attempted it in homeschooling. But as you know we talked about earlier, I didn't do all of the you know the books. So I started Spanish but it ended up the last. It was actually two thirds of the class. I had a teaching class that I had to take and it was at the same time as the Spanish class. It was a conflict that I couldn't. I couldn't skip the teaching class because it was required for my major. So I couldn't do Spanish anymore. So I was like, ok, first I thought it was going to be the one quarter and I was like I'll try to do some independent studying and then come back and take the third quarter to get the full year credit and realize that wasn't going to work because I had one. Then I had a class that time, the third quarter too. I don't think I can do both quarters and get credit for it. Do both quarters and, you know, get credit for it.
Speaker 4:But there was a. The other option, the other language option, was German and I was like I don't know, this is a little bit of a stretch. I don't know much German, but my grandma and my mom both spoke Pennsylvania Dutch and my grandma knew German. I was like I mean, if nothing else it could be, you know, it could be interesting. So I jumped into that third quarter. I didn't take the first two quarters of German, I jumped in third quarter.
Speaker 4:Yes, I did, it was fun. It was a little crazy. I passed it. I was. I was actually kind of impressed that I managed to pass it. I don't think I got an A, but still I needed the credit for, you know, to get my college degree and I got it. But that one was a challenge, but that was that was the only time I studied German. But that one was a challenge, but that was that was the only time I studied German. I didn't really know it too much growing up. I knew a few phrases here and there which I later found out are like a Black Forest dialect, but that was on my trip to Germany later.
Speaker 3:So I'm always kind of curious how, like I think, those of us that grew up conservative Anabaptist probably, whether or not you, we know Pennsylvania Dutch we understand different cultures and you do kind of how to adapt to different cultures.
Speaker 4:And.
Speaker 3:I am always kind of curious how that, how much that affects getting on a plane and going to Japan or going to Texas, yeah so what I found was that I actually had more.
Speaker 4:This is this is kind of I don't know, maybe sad. I had more trouble adapting to some of the the culture of some of the other English speaking teammates in the group. That went over, cause there were a dozen of us total who were English teachers there and we kind of had like a little tight knit community, but most of them were from like more Baptist or non. There were even a few more charismatic backgrounds, and then there's little me with my Anabaptist background. I think the thing that shocked me was how, like, how much difference I found that to be. Even after attending, you know, a university that was Baptist and teaching in Baptist and non-denominational Christian schools. I was like, man, this is intense when you get to living with people, yeah. So, yeah, I found it even more intense I think it's a good term than than the adaptation. I knew I was going to be adapting in Japan. I did not expect to be adapting, you know, to my English speaking teammates so what have they then?
Speaker 3:had a more difficult time adapting to Japan too and I'm saying Japan, as if I was Dutch. I hear it, my kids are mocking me as we speak oh.
Speaker 4:I'm not sure on that one. I mean part of it is because I know there were difficulties adapting. It was very different for different people. I think is a better way to put it.
Speaker 3:Which is fair?
Speaker 4:Some people yeah, some people loved it and fit in pretty well, and others others had more struggle with it.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So one of the other questions when you contacted me, Tricia, one of the other questions you brought up which I think is so fascinating you talked about this idea about what is up with some of us who just always want to learn. And that brings me to a whole other. You know, little soapbox, because I think it's such a great question, a great question, and my response to that was, yeah, what is up with this notion that you know, we get married and live happily ever after we graduate and then we are done learning, we deconstruct and then we build. No more questions Like what is up with this whole idea that it's all a destination? And, yeah, what is up with those of us who always want to keep learning? Is it a fear of missing out? Like I think I have some of that, but yeah, what else is going on? Like I'm always feeling like I'm catching up with what I assume the rest of the world knows and I missed out on, but I'm sure there's more to it.
Speaker 4:There probably is missed out on, but I'm sure there's more to it. There probably is. I don't know. I think, yeah, I've always felt like there's. You know, if there's more to learn, I want to learn it. Yeah, and I, yeah, it's gone different directions over the years.
Speaker 4:Earlier on, I did some writing, intensive workshops and did some courses. They were graduate level but to you know, to renew my license or to change my licensure from provisional to a regular license, so that was kind of where it started. And then we talked before about how I always wanted to keep my license up. So I just kind of kept taking, you know, a couple of classes here, wherever it was convenient, whatever. But I also discovered that, like, as I got older and kept taking, it wasn't just classes, it was also like I'd read a book.
Speaker 4:Or I honestly hadn't been into podcasts until super recently because I tended not to have a lot of time. What was the like with children? Right, it was kind of hard to do that for a while, but it was all like there was always something. I was always trying to learn about something. I would get all the books I could find about, you know, the role of women in church, when my husband took an assistant pastor position because I wanted to know what you know, what should I be doing? My opinion about that ended up changing.
Speaker 3:That path didn't lead to where you thought it might.
Speaker 4:Yeah, yeah, that's, that's pretty accurate. It didn't quite lead me where I figured it was going, but that's okay and maybe that's the fun of it and maybe that's why I keep doing it, because sometimes I discover I don't actually know already. There's a lot more there, there's a lot more to learn and it's I don't know. It feels more like an adventure. It feels like you know it's fresh, opening a treasure box and finding out that there's, you know more, there's another clue, I don't know, but that's kind of. It just kind of keeps going and I feel like that's what I've done. I told my son the other day I was like, yeah, I think I've applied at more schools than you've gotten requests to visit. He's like looking at me, like really, and I was like, well, think about it. I've renewed my license. How many times you know about these? You know these schools since, since you've been born? Yeah, it's like, oh, wow, but that's fascinating, you know, I don't know.
Speaker 3:I do think and we've talked about this before because I think a lot of people or I worry that a lot of people think or are afraid that I think everyone has to go to college, and I don't necessarily, but I do argue that, especially if you're a stay-at-home parent, every year you should be learning about something. I don't care if it's cake decorating, I don't care if it's how to grow freaking succulents that hate me and my house.
Speaker 4:I don't care.
Speaker 3:I don't care if it's how to learning how to operate a pressure canner. Find an interest and learn how to do it for many reasons, but first of all you're learning skills, but also you're keeping your identity, like I think it is so easy to get so lost in the world of responsibility and raising kids and and and trying to save money and make a doc, making your doctor appointments and whatever it is that you kind of forget what kind of pizza it is you like. You forget, you forget who you are in the process, and even if you want to take college classes without ever finishing your degree, that's perfectly acceptable too. Take writing classes, find out what kind of classes the library is offering.
Speaker 4:Or the local community college. Yeah, that's an invaluable resource.
Speaker 3:Right, Take photography classes. There are so many options out there and I think it's so important that we allow ourselves to be curious about things we don't know anything about.
Speaker 4:Yeah, I think learning helps us be better yeah.
Speaker 2:And to follow our interests. You interests you know, like as you're saying, that it's. I don't think you're saying it as, uh, adding another item to somebody's to-do list, but more about like, giving permission, yeah, or or validating someone in, in, in seeking what's meaningful to them, and it's not just selfish. I mean that's right, it's, it's, it's part of being a grown up, I mean it's a part of being a whole human. There you go, that's it.
Speaker 3:And you know what you might take a cake decorating class and find out you absolutely hate every part of it. That's okay. Or you're really bad at it.
Speaker 3:Or you're really bad at it, that's okay, or you're really bad at it, or you're really bad at it, that's okay. That's perfectly fine. Now you know. But you might also take a cake decorating class and figure out you're really good at it and create a little side gig on it doing that. Whatever it is you're doing Like, allow yourself to be a human being outside of the human being. Yeah, yeah, outside of responsibility, outside of yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 4:That was something that came up when my husband and I flipped the primary wage earner, because one of the things he said is I don't even know. I said you should pursue something you're interested in. You've got more time. Do something you're interested in. He's like. He looked at me. He said I don't even know what I'm interested in. I said then find out, because, yeah, it helps us do better. We physically, mentally, spiritually, emotionally we're better when we are, you know, learning and developing. So yeah, I thought that was interesting when you guys said that that, yeah, that if you don't know, figure it out. Like, take the time to try something new, do something, figure out what you're interested in.
Speaker 3:Well, and I think we all really desire this sense of community, the sense of being known, the sense of being loved, but I think sometimes we want to be known without knowing ourselves and I think you kind of have to make sure you do that work of knowing who you are too.
Speaker 3:And, of course, feedback from other people is huge. Your professor, that was fabulous the way she saw you, recognized your skills and affirmed it. I mean that's huge. I don't ever want to underplay or undermine the importance of that, but we also have to do the difficult work of knowing ourselves and loving ourselves and respecting ourselves, and I think that is something that's easy for us to kind of sidestep. And then the other important question this is tangential.
Speaker 2:But, tricia, it's so interesting to me how many little details you've mentioned that I can identify with, all the way down to seeing a class like that. So I was an English major but I remember seeing a children's lit class in the education department and going, oh, I want to take that. And then when I looked into it I was like, well, like you know it was, I think it was the barrier of like well, you know, I'm not in education and so I didn't pursue it, but I, I can guarantee you I would not have got the same reaction, but but but it's interesting. That's just one of those, those details, and it's I don't know, it's it's fun to hear when people follow paths that I've considered, you know, but didn't follow, and it's like, oh, okay so like kind of a alternate reality and you get to see what that path could be like.
Speaker 2:So that's kind of cool.
Speaker 3:So throughout the years you had kids, you were a pastor's wife, you were doing all the things, but you still were taking classes and you got your master's correct were taking classes and you got your master's correct Eventually, yes, yeah.
Speaker 4:So originally I was just taking classes here and there. To renew my license, I needed a certain number of credits, so I would just, you know, go and take those classes which you always have to enroll with some kind of you know. What are you, what is your purpose, what's your degree, degree or goal? But at that point I was not necessarily super focused on that end. You know degree as much as I was. I want to keep this license current, but eventually I had enough credits that I thought, yeah, I might as well, finish this up.
Speaker 3:So tell me years. How many years were you doing this?
Speaker 4:So I graduated with my four year degree in 2001. And I started officially, like my official start for my master's degree, where I sat down and said, yes, I'm going to do it. Here are the classes I've taken. Here are the classes I have left in 2019. You know, putting something together to renew my license, which, because I wasn't in a school, the way that I had to renew my license was, you know, a graduate class here or there, or some kind of you know course class, whatever.
Speaker 3:So, yeah, I do think it's important to point out, though, again, it's easy for us to think we have to have a destination in mind, and sometimes part of the process, part of the important part of the journey, is just doing what you know to do. It doesn't have to have some kind of huge goal in the end. It can take you years and all of a sudden you're like, oh, this gets me here. Yeah, and the other part.
Speaker 3:Well, well, I can be all for like doggone it. Wake up in the morning, have a few goals and get something done with your day, like that's me, that's me, I'm, that's me. Annoyingly so sometimes I also. I think it's so easy to overlook how important just doing small things consistently, how important and the difference that can make. Sorry, I keep interrupting you.
Speaker 4:No, you're fine, and I don't think I would have known earlier on or I wouldn't have picked the same trajectory for that master's degree. Either it took me years and experiences before I was, before I knew where you know what I wanted to do, or before I decided on this one anyway. But I think the thing that was the most, the reason that I actually messaged the all, was because when it came to that graduate degree, I could get accepted. I got in no problem. But when it came to financial aid for my undergraduate, it was super helpful. I filled out the FAFSA and the college had lots of. You know, there were these, these grants and these scholarships and these things you could apply for and these you could get a job and cover.
Speaker 4:But when it came to the graduate work it was. I filled out the FAFSA and then it said, here's what you owe. And I was like, okay, and I looked into it and I couldn't find any grants. All the grants and stuff were for four-year degrees and I was like, oh, so I'm kind of high and dry. I guess the assumption is, once you have a four-year degree, then you have the earning power to afford your further education. And I was like that is not me, but I mean, obviously we made it work. I did get my master's degree, but I was wondering is there something else I should know? Or did I miss something that could maybe help somebody else? And I don't know the answer to that because I did miss it, if there is.
Speaker 2:So anyway, so my thought is right off, just off the top of my head, is that I would imagine that some of the barriers that you were encountering there to financial aid at the graduate level is if you were taking classes like on a part-time basis and not, you know, not as a full-time, full enrolled student.
Speaker 4:Is that right? I think I was. I think I was. I don't know what the standard was for full-time enrolled for a graduate, though, but I was in a. I was. I don't know what the standard was for full-time enrolled for a graduate though, okay, but I was in a. I was in a two-year program. Usually. Two years.
Speaker 2:Oh, okay. And what kind of school, or like what? Was it like a regional state school, or was it? What kind of institution was it?
Speaker 4:I think that one would have been a private. It was another private university. Oh okay, so maybe I should have gone with the state school.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I get so many variables and I don't want anyone to hear this and say, oh, that means I shouldn't go to private schools, because private schools, you know, do scholarships and grants too. However, my sense is that often private schools and this is such a broad, this sweeping painting was such a broad brushstroke that I'm hesitate to say it. But I think it is true that there are a lot of private schools out there that have their graduate programs to help them stay solvent. Students are going to be motivated, they need this for their job, and so they're going to go ahead and they're going to be willing to pay for it, and so there are some institutions where that's you were the cash cow, unfortunately, and that I know it hurts to hear that.
Speaker 2:Okay, let's describe a different path, just for a contrast. Let's describe a different path, just for a contrast. I know like if you had been teaching at a public school during that time, my sense is there was a greater chance there might have been some kind of reimbursement for that. I think if you is that your sense of you know the education feel better than I do, but isn't that the case If you is?
Speaker 4:that your sense of? I mean, you know the education feel better than I do, but isn't that the case? Yeah, so I got a job in a public school after I got my master's degree. Right, Exactly, so I did that and they do have. They did have it was up to a certain amount each year that they would do tuition reimbursement for anyone who took classes or paid for their classes, and then the requirement was you had to stay and continue teaching there for at least two years after. So my thought was, oh, like, my having my master's degree was what helped me get the job. So I was kind of like it was kind of a I was just not in the you know the best place for getting it. But it also made me think, okay, so then if I had stayed, you know, if I'd stayed in that public school longer, then I could potentially go ahead and get either another licensure or certification or something and they could have paid for it that way. Yeah, so that is one.
Speaker 3:So workforce is one potential way to yeah that's how most of my friends or teachers get their masters anyway. From what?
Speaker 4:I've been hearing.
Speaker 3:But, however, my husband is an accountant and almost all his places of employment reimburse him for continuing education. Okay, and if not 100%, a large part of it.
Speaker 4:It's even some yeah.
Speaker 3:But I think most of them reimburse them for everything.
Speaker 2:Wow, and this is the thing. Like you don't know this, you don't know this stuff at the outset and I'm sure, given economics speak what it is right now, our national economic situation economics speak what it is right now, our national economic situation there's plenty of schools where that's not an option, right, or at least the strings that are attached require more and more of you. So it's good to know that that's an option, and also the tricky part is that Look for what the requirements are Yep.
Speaker 4:What is it going to require of you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and that's just the tricky part, and I think this is where we have to give ourselves a lot of grace, because when we talk about like bootstrapping our way to success and that kind of thing, we say it with this assumption that we have all the information in front of us, and then the reality is we don't. All we have is the information we have at the moment, and it's incomplete. Yeah, I mean. Another option I think would be I would imagine someone like you would get, could get really good funding if you applied to, say, a doctoral program at Ohio State or somewhere like that. Miami Miami University is well, they have a great educate rhetoric program. That's why I'm thinking of that. I'm sure they have a great education program too, but it is, I think if you applied at a place like that where they have doctoral programs as well as master's. But since you're, since you have that now, if you wanted to do that which I I'm not suggesting that you should, if you don't have to, but I think you would get I think you'd have a pretty good chance of being offered financial aid that way. Gotcha, yeah, but again, so many variables and that's why it's hard.
Speaker 2:So probably if you went on a university's website and I say this not just to you, but to listeners who might have similar questions If you go on their university's website and see, do they talk about assistantships, because that can really help offset. So an assistantship would mean that you are teaching undergrads while you're also in graduate school, or maybe there's some kind of a research assistantship or there's something, so that you get tuition, your tuition covered. You usually get insurance covered. It's not going to be fabulous, but it's going to be insurance and a stipend, and so these stipends, of course, are designed for single people who are not supporting families. So it's not a gravy train trained by any stretch, but that kind of support can come when you apply to a big program like that and if you're competitive.
Speaker 2:Now, having said that, given the current climate, I've heard that students who had been accepted to chemistry programs at University of Iowa have been getting their acceptances rescinded, Not because of any fault of theirs, but simply the department doesn't even have funding. The program's being cut, yeah Well, or at least defunded. Enough Like chemistry, chemistry, that's just scary stuff Like that's scary.
Speaker 2:Like they're not even you know. They're so far from the woke, from being woke, you know anyway. Yeah, so all that to say that it's so uncertain, and this is what happens when you live in a society that doesn't value education. So what is your response to that, trisha? Is that helpful? What would you like to do? Is there funding that you, or is there a path that you are looking to explore now, not so much that Like a different master's.
Speaker 4:Okay, no, at this point I'm yeah, I'm kind of involved in working on some stuff with reading, but I'm more thinking for people who are like me, who were looking into it and want to do a master's degree or a doctorate or whatever, and and or maybe you know seeing that price tag and saying I can't do this, what other options are there? So so I think we have given those resources, look, maybe, maybe even get a job your job may, if you have one, that might be, you know, a way to get some of it. And also look for large universities, look for, yeah, look for places that would have something like you mentioned assistantships.
Speaker 3:I think those are the kinds of things I correct to say, like you know, I made in my undergraduate, I made quite a few phone calls saying, hey, this is what I need, this is where I'm at, what can you offer me? And those phone calls gave me information I wouldn't have found online.
Speaker 2:Would the same thing be true here? That's true too. That's a good idea, Probably, but I mean again.
Speaker 4:It doesn't hurt to ask Connections doesn't hurt. Yeah, yeah, because it's kind of amazing.
Speaker 3:It's amazing what happens if you find one person who decides to like you. Oh, yeah, yeah, it helps. Like just one person.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and and also just to circle back, Tricia, like at the same time that you could look at that and say, oh, why didn't I wait to get my master's? Would you have got the job if you didn't have the master's?
Speaker 4:Right, I don't know that I would have. So you know, and so I was thinking honestly more for somebody else who was in the situation I had been in. What can we give them that I didn't have? That's cool. I think we have some ideas.
Speaker 2:Okay, good, and I wish it were a more specific answer than Google it, but part of it's because there's so much variation and also the situation is always changing. But, yeah, good, good, good. And I am clearly a huge fan of education and yet, when it comes to the advanced degrees, my philosophy is that you only do as much as you need to get to where you want to go, like it's the cost in time and opportunity and energy. All that is just too high to just dive into it and think, well, any degree is going to be better than nothing. And yeah, especially for an advanced degree. Yeah, but it's definitely worth asking and keep asking. Well, thank you so so much, tricia, for spending this time with us and sharing your very inspiring story with us and our listeners. We'll put your socials in the show notes If folks have questions or want to reach out to you. I'm sure there's lots of folks who can identify with different parts of your journey and I'm so glad we get to share it share with them.
Speaker 4:Thank you, it's been a pleasure to talk to you. I'm so glad we get to share it. Share with them, thank you.
Speaker 3:It's been a pleasure to talk to you, agreed All the things. I am so glad you're almost my neighbor, a few counties over, so grateful to have met you. The world is lucky to have you and thank you for spending this time with us. I know it takes a certain level of emotional energy and vulnerability and I so respect that and honor that in you. And thank you for making yeah, making our day and all the things we've learned from you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, go take a nap if you can, if that's restful.
Speaker 3:Naps are amazing.
Speaker 1:Thank you for spending time with us today. The resources and materials we've mentioned are linked in the show notes and on Facebook at Uncovered Life Beyond.
Speaker 2:What are your thoughts about college and recovery from high demand religion? We know you have your own questions and experiences, and we want to talk about the topics that matter to you. Share them with us at uncoveredlifebeyondatgmailcom. That's uncoveredlifebeyondatgmailcom.
Speaker 1:If you enjoyed today's show and found value in it, please rate and review it on your favorite podcast app. This helps others find the show While you're there. Subscribe to our podcast so you never miss an episode Until next time.
Speaker 2:stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward. Thank you,
