Uncovered: Life Beyond

61. Relationship Post-Mortem: How a Relationship Dies when Mutuality Never Arrives

• Naomi and Rebecca • Episode 61

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We're back! As podcasters, when we can't be consistent, we aim for persistence. In this episode, Naomi and Rebecca reflect on the slow end of a long relationship, mapping how trust erodes, how patriarchy trains us to ignore women’s needs, and how grief and loss can be gateways to new dreams.

• How relational trust is like a jar of marbles
• Emotional labor, minimising, and who does the work
• Default patriarchal patterns that prevent collaboration
• Concrete signs a relationship is already over
• Sitting with the awkwardness of growth and change
• New avenues for finding mutuality and genuine connection 

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SPEAKER_00:

This is Rebecca, and this is Name. We're 40-something moms and first cousins who know what it's like to figure out the path assigned to us.

SPEAKER_01:

We've tackled motherhood, marriage, college, and career as we questioned our faith traditions while exploring new identities and ways of seeing the world.

SPEAKER_00:

Without any maps for either of us to follow, we've had to figure things out as we go and appreciate that detours and dividends are essential to the path.

SPEAKER_01:

Along the way, we've uncovered a few insights we want to share with fellow travelers. We want to talk about the questions we didn't know who to ask and the options we didn't know we had.

SPEAKER_00:

So whether you're feeling stuck or already shaking things up, we are here to cheer you on and assure you that the best is yet to come. Welcome to Uncovered Life Beyond. Hello everyone. Welcome back to Uncovered Life Beyond. This is Naomi.

SPEAKER_01:

And this is Rebecca. So I feel like we should congratulate ourselves once again. We are back. Welcome back, everybody, and welcome back to us.

SPEAKER_00:

How many times have we had a recording session on the calendar? And then for one reason or another, we had to we had to reschedule. And so here we are, the last day of the year.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, and I'm afraid if we go back and listen to the last six episodes, we probably said the exact same thing when we started. I know. I feel I feel like I've congratulated ourselves before. Well, let's do it one more time.

SPEAKER_00:

Let's do it. Let's do it. Because you know, we all know they that so many of the self-help books put a lot of emphasis on um doing things consistently. Yes, always, every week, every week, or every, you know, whatever the schedule is. But I think for I've said this before, but I'm just gonna say it again that when you can't be consistent being determined.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, sometimes I think, isn't that what grit's about? Grit's that's what grit is about, like coming back and we try again. Yeah. And I mean, like seriously, what really is consistent in life? I mean, if I get out of bed every day, that's consistent. That's about as consistent as my life gets.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, okay, persistence. There we go. Yeah, if you can't be consistent, then let's be persistent. And that's that's that's what we're doing. And how many of us feel that way about other things like working out or right, whatever other habit we're trying to establish? And sometimes we have to be, we have to celebrate the persistence. Right. As yeah, consistency is just not happening.

SPEAKER_01:

So today we're gonna talk about how relationships often um end long before anyone officially ends the actual relationship. And we're gonna be talking about the loneliness and the emotions that follow and come along with that, and also like some of the dumb things that get said. Um, but before we get into that, I think we should do a little um bit of an update. So, Naomi, what's been happening with you?

SPEAKER_00:

What's been happening with me? Well, we're gonna be talking about more of that this episode, but I will say um the holidays have been quiet around here. My kids were gone last week, they're here now this week, and I've been taking lots of naps. And I know that it's extremely rare that moms get a chance to be at home alone and take naps for an extended period of time and be able to take naps. So it feels very, very luxurious. So, and I don't know what I'm gonna do when school starts next week. But uh tell us about you. You've had so many things going on in your life.

SPEAKER_01:

I've been busy working, um, busy working, busy, you know, appointments. I had another kid graduate this in in December. I don't know, just life has been busy. And I'm making I'm putting a lot of thought into what I want life to actually look like.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, you've you graduated in May, and then you know, I think of all the times that we were recording and we talk about how busy life was with school, and oh, you know, when school's out, then everything's everything would be well, the implication was that when school was not in the picture anymore, that everything would open up, and it's that doesn't seem to be the way it's worked out. No, not quite. How that how that goes.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, and you know, I I've been finding out that I don't do so well when I have other people put expectations on me. And I'm finding out that I don't I think it's another case of not listening to yourself. And it's difficult when other people's expectations and even directives overwhelm what I want, what I wish for, or even what I need. Um, and I I I tell myself it's all a part of growing up, it's a part of growing into yourself, it's a part of uh maturity. I would have just liked to think it's something I've learned better by now.

SPEAKER_00:

Isn't that so often the case?

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah, it's like dang it all. But here we are. Here we are.

SPEAKER_00:

And you have a new job coming up.

SPEAKER_01:

I do have a new job coming up, yeah. Um and you know, there's parts, there's parts of it that are exciting, there's parts of it that aren't exciting. It's kind of funny. My husband and I are both starting new jobs, and when I look at where he's starting out compared to where I'm starting out, it's a little heartbreaking. It's a little devastating. Um, I'm lucky if I'll make a third of what he makes. We're the same age. In fact, I'm a little bit older than he is. We're exactly the same age.

SPEAKER_02:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Um, he comes in with, you know, vacation time. Um, I don't know. It's a lot. It's it's it's it's it's there's a lot in it that there's a lot in it that just reminds me how unfair and what kind of lies we've been told about.

SPEAKER_00:

Well, and what kind of experience counts as experience.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

Right, right, right. But we're kind of bullied into being stay-at-home moms. We're kind of told that that's the, you know, that that's how it should be. It's your your highest calling. And and the ex again, there's this expectation that that's what you do. After all, it's our bodies that produce the babies.

SPEAKER_00:

But it doesn't feel so good being on this end of it. Right. It feels like that's held against us the rest of our lives.

SPEAKER_01:

It is, it is.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. I'm so sorry. I think that deserves a whole episode because I know uh it's well documented. You're not alone in that. There's there's so many people who are experiencing that too.

SPEAKER_01:

Actually, you know, I've been fascinated about how many people are talking about it. I'm so glad there's people talking about it. Um, there's a lot of TikTok, there's a lot of reels on Instagram and social media as a rule, talking about it. And I'm so glad. Um I'm so glad it's a conversation that people are talking about. Yeah, it's way overdue. So tell us about yourself though. So you've had a quiet week with the kids. Um I'm assuming you've had a quiet week with the ex.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, the ex. So today we're supposed to talk about this. For a little context, my health and the end of this long relationship are kind of part of the same story. As I've mentioned on the podcast before, I have been living with or dealing with migraines and fatigue for quite some time and assuming it's perimenopause related. And, you know, as the semester went on this fall, the migraines really were ramping up in a way that just made it harder and harder to push through. And I was having fewer and fewer. Um, I was having more of the crash and burn days um than the being up and around in productive days. I'm so sorry. Well, and you know, it's it's it's often hard to know exactly what is, you know, what what's the cause. And I think often it's it's a mix of things. You know, last spring I had mentioned being in the met in the messy middle of figuring out a relationship. And the figuring out part, those concerns really had been there all along, but really over the past year or two, things have I was gonna say come to a head, but that doesn't even feel like the right metaphor. It's more it's more deteriorate. Yeah, I guess things that yes. And and um not to not to give you words. No, that's no, I think deteriorate is the right word. The moments, you know, where we really felt connected were just fewer and farther between.

SPEAKER_01:

Um at some point you kind of have to figure out if you're having more bad days than good days. Exactly. And and isn't it Brene Brown that talks about trust being a little bit like marbles in a jar? When someone does something that makes you trust them, it puts a marble in your jar. But every time they do something that diminishes that trust, it's removing a marble, it's removing two marbles.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I was gonna say it's not just removing one marble, it's removing multiple marbles at a time.

SPEAKER_01:

And at some point, when you don't have marbles left in your jar, or you have very few marbles left, do you even have a relationship? Exactly. And I think about that often. I think about that often. I think about that in a workplace. I think about that almost as a way to not keep track, but a way to um look at relationships and look at the people in your life and to pay attention who's putting marbles in your jar and who's taking them out. And it's I don't think it's a tit for tat thing, it's it's simply an awareness of who depletes you.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, it's like a reality check.

SPEAKER_01:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

Especially for those of us who grew up hearing verses like love doesn't keep a score.

unknown:

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, love is patient. Exactly. I think another change that was happening alongside this was uh my capacity to uh ignore those uh missing marbles to use that that metaphor. And and also with this, uh with these frequent migraines and and this debilitating fatigue, I have learned I have to keep a laser sharp focus on staying functional just for my job, for my kids. I don't have someone else at home to pick up the slack if if I can't do the basics. And when your energy is limited, you just don't have the bandwidth to spend what little you have of it managing other adults' emotions, um, especially people who are supposed to be a source of strength and comfort. And and I think that's one thing about chronic health conditions, as awful as they are, as annoying, as frustrating, they can be excellent BS detectors because it just really clarifies what gives you energy versus what's draining you, what really matters. So as a result of all these factors, uh in late October, early November, somewhere in there, uh our breakup became official and I went no contact. And all that to uh set us up for uh today's uh conversation where it's really like a relationship post-mortem. It's not a dramatic breakup story, but more an honest look at how relationships often end long before anyone officially leaves, and uh how listening to our exhaustion, hearing what our eyes and ears are telling us can really be a guiding light uh during these really difficult times, and especially when it involves someone that you love. And so to our listeners, if you're tired or grieving or quietly reassessing something in your life that no longer feels mutual, I just want to say you're not alone. This conversation is not for is less for me to air things and more to let you know that you're not alone.

SPEAKER_01:

So something I observed as you were going through this, and I think so often women are almost forced to do this. And I know sometimes men are forced to do this, but we're talking to women. It's almost like we have to learn how to uh decide how we want to be treated. We often are ignored. I mean, who women's health is so ignored. Um, we're just having another baby, we are just going through perimenopause, we are just, you know, having a period, you know, whatever it is, it's brushed aside. And I think so often we are ignored when we are told, when we when we tell someone we're tired, we're emotionally exhausted. And I think oftentimes in relationships, people look in and the person who sends the Dear John letter or who files for divorce or who leaves is perceived and um blamed for ending the relationship. But what gets ignored is the years of neglect, the years of silence, the years of having to do the emotional labor. And rarely do people ask what made that person leave? What made them realize that they had to leave or that they had to end the relationship? And culturally, we love to act like the person who ends it, the person who leaves, the person who says this is enough is the destroyer, without acknowledging that the destroying happened gradually over the years. It really is like the death of a thousand cuts. It really is an emotional erosion that happened. It was a whole decade, maybe, of jar of marbles being taken out of your jar instead of marbles being being put into the jar.

SPEAKER_00:

You know, that is so true. When I got back into dating after my marriage ended, I heard so many men talk about how their divorce had ruined them financially. Oh my god. And you know, and and and uh obviously there is going to be a financial impact. What I also noticed is there's no awareness or acknowledgement that the negative financial impact of divorce tends to have a much harsher negative financial impact on the ex-wife than it does on the ex-husband. And looking back, I wish I had said now that you've told me about your financial ruin, tell me about how you emotionally abandoned her for the 10 years before that.

SPEAKER_01:

Right. And I've I've heard this too. And I think the thing that I've even heard more is um when when women, when moms are talking about, you know, do I leave him? Do I do I need to get out? Their kind of conversation is around how can I do this and create the last least harm? How can I do this and keep my kids safe? How can I do this and keep my kids protected? Rarely do I hear men having those conversations. And if they are having those conversations, they're blaming the spouse. But they're not actively trying to figure out what they can do to help the kids. And something else that I've been hearing is oftentimes men seem to think that they, he is worth this amount of money that they have made throughout the marriage. Their salary or their um like their financial standard portfolio. Yes. You know, it's his money. He's worth this much. And I think it's so troubling, particularly if she's a stay-at-home mom. When when you have men who are acting as if he has financial value and she's just sitting here trying to take advantage of him, never mind. She was at home raising the kids, getting up with the kids, doing his laundry, taking care of the schedule, planning all the things, getting up with the kids at night. She was the reason that he was able to make that money. Exactly. Exactly. And I just think it's pretty damning. I don't know. I'm afraid if I would hear Matt talking about how much he is worth, we we'd have a pretty big problem.

SPEAKER_00:

Not to give legal advice or anything, uh, but the reality is that in most states, money earned during a marriage is considered shared money. And I think any woman who finds herself in a situation like that where she feels she's being threatened financially, she really needs to talk to an attorney because she that's not considered his money. It's considered their money. Right.

SPEAKER_01:

I think also there's this assumption that, and and we've been told this. I I heard it growing up at every wedding, at every, you know, whatever, at every possible opportunity, that marriage is forever. And it feels like that means that the marriage is forever, therefore effort is optional. And perhaps uh this whole idea that marriage is forever gives the person who is most comfortable in the relationship a license to be lazy emotionally, particularly.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, I think that's something that uh is so common and just does not get talked about uh enough. You know, I think I want to be really clear before we go any further that uh in this relationship that ended, we had uh so many good times. We loved traveling together, doing crossword puzzles together, hiking, uh discussing politics. Um, we uh loved cooking together and making really good food. And uh he was the kind of guy who was also very generous. And he'd come over most of the time, he was the one cooking. There there were so many good things. Uh so this is not a story of violent abuse or some real uh dramatic uh situation. And and I think that's important to recognize because what we're saying here is that this is so normal. These dynamics are so normal. And and to be honest, like I still care about him. I did not fall out of love. I Did not want to end the relationship. But I slowly came to the realization that in the context of the relationship, caring about my feelings, consideration for my feelings, my concerns was optional. And I think a lot of people, men and women, seem to think that, you know, if he's throwing verbal zingers, uh, not physical blows, then he's automatically a nice guy. And we don't give consideration to how those zingers, those verbal zingers, impact the people around them. You know, that just doesn't seem to matter. The bar really is low, isn't it, sometimes?

SPEAKER_01:

And yeah. And and I think the distinction you made there, it matters. Um, religion, patriarchy, the culture trains women to think, you know, if it's not that bad, I shouldn't complain. Or if I would be doing things right, then he would come around. Or if I would engage correctly, or if I would, you know, ask correctly. And we rarely pause or even um consider that perhaps back to the other point I made, the person who's most comfortable in the relationship can also be the one who's the most lazy. Right.

SPEAKER_00:

They can kind of pick and choose what's convenient to tend to in the relationship. Yeah. And and and what was a real wake-up call for me was realizing how that contrasted with my friendships. Well, with my close friendships, the first response is validation, you know, not debate or minimizing or dismissing. Right. Um, and I think we need to ask ourselves, why is this basic human relational skill so rare in men and so common among women? Is it is it inherent? Because I think sometimes that's the message that it is inherent. Women are just more nurturing. But I think this is where we have to say not all men. We know this is not an inherent trait because not all men are like this. Some men do have relational skills, good relational skills. And these relational skills don't necessarily come naturally to all women. I mean, it's conditioning, it's not biology. We've been conditioned to live within the system of patriarchy so it feels normal and it doesn't get questioned. And it takes conscious effort to change that conditioning, you know, the the way we were, we've been brought up to interact. And patriarchy is a system of hierarchies, like who is above whom and knowing your place and and staying in your place is how the system functions. And so it doesn't encourage negotiation, it doesn't encourage collaboration. Um, instead, you know, you are looking at other people as either above or below you. And if they're below you, you manage them, you correct them, you dismiss them, you don't collaborate with them. And it makes it very hard to have mutual relationships when you see everybody this way as either above or below you. Because in a mutual relationship, you got to be curious about the other person's inner world. And in mutual relationships, like you know, in close friendships, we are able to hold one more than one perspective at a time. We can see how we see things and also how the other person is seeing it.

SPEAKER_01:

I also think in mutual relationships, there's this level of trust. And to go back to the marble and jar example. However, I do think that in a patriarchal world, women aren't trustworthy. That's our nature. We're emotional, we're crazy, we are, you know, a loose. That's how we're characterized. Right. And so women aren't seen in leadership roles. And I think there are a lot of men, a lot of husbands who by default don't trust their spouse.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. And maybe aren't even conscious of it. Like maybe they would know to say they do, or they would say, like, oh, we're equal. They would say that. And I think that's who we're talking about here, as much as like the um manosphere bros, we're not talking about that. We're talking about the ones who think they're egalitarian, who want to be that way, and yet haven't consciously deconstructed that patriarchal view of women. Right.

SPEAKER_01:

And and I think oftentimes the narrative is or or the belief is well, if your partner doesn't trust you, then you need to be more trustworthy. Right. And so the female doubles down, she works harder, she attempts to be more trustworthy, when in fact it's not anything she can do sometimes. Right. Sometimes it's actually work he needs to do. And I'm gonna even take this a step further. Lately, I've been thinking about even the biblical stories we've been told affirm these roles. Stories are not told out of a void, stories are told for a reason. And like, example, the woman at the well. How often have we heard her story told that she's a prostitute, she was a loose woman, you know, all the things. I mean, from the pulpit, this is like one of the most scandalous stories you can tell. I've never heard a pastor talk about how she was misused and harmed by men in her life. Yeah. We've never talked about the men in her life who were misusing her, probably casting her out because she couldn't produce kids. I mean, there could be a thousand reasons, but no, we we we talk about how she was the loose woman. And guess what? God, Jesus still saw her and loved her, even in her sin. Oh my God. But but I I think so often, and I think I think we could go through the whole list of how stories are told, biblical stories are told to enforce those roles. And I think it is so deeply ingrained that oftentimes the people who are the most comfortable don't look at it. I think this is why women are deconstructing at a higher rate than men.

SPEAKER_00:

Right.

SPEAKER_01:

And men are often benefiting off the work that the females are doing because now they know the verbiage for deconstruction. They know what it's supposed to sound like. And and I also think this is a problem when people want to deconstruct fast. Because it's uncomfortable to deconstruct. It's uncomfortable to be like, you know what, I don't know who God is or what this means.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And I think that's why women are primarily doing the work of deconstruction. And that's also why men who deconstruct are the ones out there saying, hey, if you pay me, I'll help you deconstruct. Isn't that the truth?

SPEAKER_00:

Are you saying that in the context of deconstruction, we've got to be careful that those efforts at deconstruction don't just replicate the same patriarchal patterns where it's like, oh, he is rational. Um, she is, she is emotional, he is rational, therefore, will um his insight is worth paying for.

SPEAKER_01:

You know what? Can we just talk a little bit about the whole thing of women being emotional and men aren't? Who is it that punches holes in the walls? Who is it that drives the fastest statistically and the most recklessly? Who is it that gets the most angry? Like statistically, who is it that goes into schools and blows up kids? Yeah. Statistically, it's the white man. So this whole thing about men not being emotional and women being emotional, no, women are the ones that are learning to control their emotions and to navigate the whole emotional landscape. While oftentimes men don't need to. And somehow we need to stop doing their work.

SPEAKER_00:

I agree. And figuring out what that means, what that means to stop doing their work. Right. Man, that's hard. They're a condition to expect it from us, and we're conditioned to do that. And and I think giving ourselves permission to do it badly before we figure out how to do it uh gracefully or how to do it with panachia or however to feel good about it, um, I think is is our work.

SPEAKER_01:

Um no, I agree with you. This does not come down to a thing of whether men are capable of being emotional creatures. I mean, we have women who are traumatized, we have women who are raising chaos and religious circles and neurodivergent women. We figure it out, we manage how to do it. We we learn to figure out how to become aware. And you know, it's also, I also realized um how rarely men are the first to go to therapy. Usually it's the female in the relationship who goes to therapy first. And if the man goes often first, oftentimes it is to uh receive validation that yes, his spouse is in fact crazy. And I think about how many friends I have who go to therapy asking if they're crazy, what they can do, what are they doing wrong? How can I fix this? And I I've realized, and I'm sure there's men out there who have done this, but I realize I personally don't know of one man who was in therapy before his spouse was or his partner was, not one. That's a problem. Isn't that wild? So so I don't think it at all has anything to do with ability, it's about motivation, it's about who's comfortable, it's about who is in a system that is benefiting them. And I I I remember being so frustrated with someone and and telling the the man that you know it's feels like it's all about your comfort. Yeah. Why are you so determined that you're always going to be comfortable? And and his response was, well, we all want to be comfortable. And I'm like, when do you think in the last 20 years I have been comfortable?

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. It's it's like the assumption is the unspoken assumption, but conversations like that bring it to light that her needs are supposed to be sacrificed for his comfort.

SPEAKER_01:

Or do they even consider her comfort? Like I'm not even sure that her comfort sometimes is in the consideration.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. And that word consideration, I think, is so key to all of this. I've been noticing when I'm talking with others about their relationships, I'm watching trashy reality TV shows, again and again, the conflicts between men and women come down to whether or not he should have to give consideration to her concerns. And on the surface, it might look like they're uh arguing about, you know, the toothpaste or the toilet seat or whatever, you know, these these issues kind of get reduced to these really silly things. But what's really going on is she is asking for consideration. And he is, he, he's, he's coming to the relationship with this assumption he doesn't have to give consideration to her concerns. Her concerns don't matter.

SPEAKER_01:

Because if she's upset about the toilet seat or the toothpaste in the sink or whatever, but he's saying, I want you to cook me a meal when I come home in the evening, or I want you to do the laundry, I want you to keep the house cleaner, those are valid, those are always valid complaints from him. Societally, they're seen as valid. Yes. But but when when the female is asking for the bare minimum, like, my goodness, just clean out your sink. Yeah. He's seen as as some kind of hero if he actually does it one or two days out of the week. Like, how how have we decided that this is okay?

SPEAKER_00:

Well, and if it's so simple, if it's such a little thing, why just you just do it?

unknown:

Right.

SPEAKER_00:

Why don't you just do it? And and I mean, this is not just in, you know, romantic relationships. I think you see this in workplaces, in family systems. I mean, where it's it's assumed that you can just trivialize women's perspectives unless it happens to suit him. Right. And it I think these concerns could be heard by someone who is willing to misinterpret them, someone who's not willing to understand, as we're saying women are always right. And that's not what we're saying. We're talking about the default assumptions that are made when the default assumption is that she's being unreasonable. The default assumption is any whatever comes out of her mouth is not, is, is irrational until proven in a otherwise. Until proven otherwise.

SPEAKER_01:

And I think we're also talking about the fact that not who's right or wrong, but who's trying, who's reading the books, who's getting the help, who, who, who is the person who is desperately trying to be heard and trying to get it right. And and I don't think a person should have to be getting it right in order to be heard, in order to be seen, in order to be understood. And I have this theory that a lot of men are so uncomfortable with their emotions that when they truly do love someone, they don't know what to do with that feeling. And that feeling of love makes them feel vulnerable, so they get mean. I think there are a lot of men who literally don't know how to live with the emotion of love. When you love someone, you have to trust them or you get mean. Yeah, yeah. You have to hear them or you get mean. If you don't hear them, you're gonna dismiss them. But that vulnerability is not something that a lot of men know how to handle, how to hold. And and I think until men become more comfortable with emotion and become comfortable with vulnerability, we're gonna keep having these conversations, we're gonna keep having these issues. And I think women are gonna keep leaving.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. Absolutely. And I think that again, this is not about saying men are inherently this way. We're saying men and women have been conditioned to be this way, and it's gonna take conscious effort to change. Right. And I think this is where people who are openly misogynistic and people who are closeted misogynistic, you know, it comes down to the same thing, like they have to acknowledge to change for this to change. They have to acknowledge these default assumptions they're making. Right. They have to acknowledge their difficulty in processing emotions in a healthy way. They have to acknowledge that they have to consciously learn how to deal with vulnerability. You know, it's not, it's not inherent. It's it's something that anybody can learn if they want to, if they want those relationships. But I think when relationships are set up in a in a way to benefit one over the other, um the one who's benefiting from the status quo is not motivated to change. And I think that just keeps coming back to that. There's also um talk out there about marriage being hard or relationships being hard, or they require work. And and and and this is often framed that like when someone leaves, like they're just giving up, they're not willing to do the work. And we need to also ask, like, hard for whom, in what way, is it that one person is doing five times the emotional labor of the other person? Is it is it that all the compromise is having to be done by one person? All the all the growth, all the um understanding is done by one person. I mean, is that is that what we're really saying?

SPEAKER_01:

So, you know, I've been I've been thinking a lot about the ways I've seen women. I've heard my aunts, I've heard women in my life carefully, and sometimes we're even told how to make requests to our husbands, to the men in our lives about how we would, how we need something, how we want something, how often those requests are dismissed. Um, and then and then we we criticize women for turning to manipulation in order to get their needs met. And I think about the ways men don't have to ask for what they need.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

When you ask a man, what do you want? What do you need? How often you don't really get an answer, how often you're met with silence. And the assumption, I I send out a message to a handful of friends, and I ask early in your relationship, did you feel like it was kind of your job to figure out what he was wanting, what he was needing? Everyone is like, yes, yes. And I think the assumption is that a good woman will kind of figure out what he wants without him verbalizing it. That that's the epitome of a good woman. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00:

And I think when a woman gets tired of that, on top of her own concerns and needs being dismissed. Right, right.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, and I think the belief is that if you figure out what he wants, he then in turn will give you what you need. That's bullshit. That's what happened. And I just am not okay with that type of when it goes back to your role, the the discussion about roles. When you have to make a request, you are the one at the bottom. You are the one with humility, you are the one who is lower in the pecking order. You have to humble yourself and be like, I really need this, I would really like this, I want this. When you have the husband who literally, it's his wife's job, it's his partner's job to figure out what it is he needs.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Like, now that's a recipe for insanity.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And I I think that's fairly normal. Oftentimes it's not even a question about what the man needs. We're we're taught to give him what he wants. Right. While a woman is delicately sitting back here trying to figure out how to get what she needs.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly.

SPEAKER_01:

This isn't about a Christmas wish list.

SPEAKER_00:

No, no.

SPEAKER_01:

Like we have to figure out a way to raise better kids, to re what raise better sons, and to expect more from the men in our lives.

SPEAKER_00:

And I think this is where support between women is. So important. And I think this is why over in Afghanistan, the Taliban is making it harder and harder for women to even speak to each other. Right. Because they're that's where our support often comes from.

SPEAKER_01:

Well, and in the old days when telephones were becoming a thing, part of the reason some of the churches didn't want the telephone was because it made it too easy for women to gossip.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah, exactly. And how often is gossip sharing important information? Yeah. You know, like a lot of people who are struggling relationships, I didn't just wake up one morning and decide this is it. There wasn't a dramatic showdown. It was a slow deterioration. And along with that was a slow realization that what I had been calling being patient and gracious was really more like being someone's emotional punching bag. And none of those moments alone end a relationship. Um, what ends it is the patterns that all these moments form together. And I have a list here of some of those patterns that I had this growing awareness of and that I see as slowly eroding the relationship. And just to emphasize once more, this is not unique to this relationship. I think these are patterns that are common to lots of others. Um, but I think we're often, so often we don't feel we have permission to name what we're experiencing. So I knew the relationship was over when I realized that we wanted fundamentally different things out of the relationship. I didn't want to be an emotional punching bag. When personal growth, um, things like going to therapy, reading books about relationships, um, learning emotional regulation, when those things were only happening if I pushed for it and then stopped, when I stopped pushing for it, when emotional repair, self-reflection, de-escalation of, you know, of stirred emotions, high emotions, um, were considered consistently treated as my responsibility. And I found myself going into conversations, you know, editing myself, rehearsing how I was going to talk about my feelings in to avoid defensiveness or retaliation. Another pattern was that the relationship felt most peaceful when I was quiet, um, and it was most volatile when I was honest. Uh, when I stopped listening to promises and I started watching for the follow-through and noticing how rarely the two matched. Another pattern was when those nice gestures seemed to function as a license to be cruel later, like those marbles in the jar. When I realized that I saw marbles in the jar as something to accumulate, something worth celebrating, and the other person saw them as a license to take them back out. Oof. And over time, as we were doing a lot of work on our emotional growth in with between me and my kids, I started to notice that my neurospicy kids were consistently demonstrating more emotional intelligence than my partner was. Oof.

SPEAKER_01:

That's that's a lot. That's a lot of awareness on your part. And that's also a lot of pain because while it's your pain, I think you sharing it touches a lot of other people's pain.

SPEAKER_00:

Pain that we're often not given permission to acknowledge. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

Pain that we're often told to hide or pretend as if it doesn't exist. And and if we talk about it, we're often shamed for it. Right. Right. Um the two things I keep thinking about the most is um the idea that when the relationship was the most peaceful is when we're quiet. And I I think so often the narrative is given, you know, she's the nagging wife. She's the, and and if she just be quiet, if she'd just be quiet. When she's quiet, the relationship is over.

unknown:

Yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And that is oftentimes when men think that it's going well and they're surprised that when it's over, it just came out of nowhere. And again, I think that so much points to the lack of intelligence, of emotional intelligence, of an awareness. And and really the the cultural, cultural assumption of what men want. And then when they're finally given it, they're surprised that it's over.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And and and who wants to be in a relationship where they're constantly devalued and dismissed? Who who wants to be in a relationship where if they're asking for a need when they're saying, I don't feel well, I'm tired, whatever, they are dismissed. And it feels like you need to do, like you said, trial prep for court. Like, who wants to be in that type of relationship? I mean, you know, there's a lot of judgment and a lot of mockery about women and their cats. Cats give you more emotional support than that. And I and I think somehow we need to figure out a way. I don't know. We need to figure out a way to create a better world, if not for ourselves, for our kids.

SPEAKER_00:

Yeah. Where the responsibility for emotional intelligence is shared and it's not just put on put on one person. You know, I think a big shift here is just believing what we see and taking our own knowing, our own experiences seriously. And when we realize we are in a an unbalanced partnership and we think about all the blood, sweat, and tears that we've shed uh during the relationship to keep it going, who is really the disloyal one? Who actually has been unfaithful? Who has been emotionally absent for years? Like when when when it feels like your relationship has been an uphill tandem bike ride for years, and you realize I'm the only one peddling, and the other person is, you know, ringing the bell or you know, waving to everybody going by as if they're contributing. And when that when when you find out you're the one only one peddling and you decide to get off the bike, you're called the unfaithful one. And yet, what about that person who was just along for the ride? And I think when we give ourselves permission to realize this is what we're dealing with, man, we just can't unsee it. And we can't just play along. And whether it's perimenopause or, you know, what other whatever hormonal shift that might make these patterns more visible, it's this realization where so many women in midlife just stop swallowing the lie. Like we just can't keep being agreeable. The filters that kept us quiet fall away, and finally we don't have the energy to keep pretending. And we finally speak up.

SPEAKER_01:

And that, my friends, is when they call you a witch and they burn you at the stake. It's truly, we need to talk about the narrative of the bitter, angry woman and and why that is such a easy trope that gets pulled out. Um we have women who have been in marriages for 10, 20 years, and they're exhausted and they get criticized for being angry. And I think about the same way that people criticize those in deconstruction for being angry. Like somehow, all of a sudden, you know, male anger often is applauded and we we value that. But when a female gets angry, when someone gets angry about the religious system, all of a sudden the criticism is in the way their um truth is presented. Now you're not saying it right. Now you're not saying it right. You're not the problem is not that they left, it was the way they left. Yes, yes, yes, exactly. And and I just think when people criticize someone for being angry, whether it's the angry female trope, whether it is deconstruction, whatever it is, I think that's when we set sit up and we start paying attention to the person who's angry. I think anger that has been simmering and waiting for its turn, particularly if there has been a lot of therapy happening, a lot of emotional awareness happening, I think that's some pretty honest anger. And we need to know the difference. We need to know the difference between healthy and honest anger that is finally getting a voice and saying what needs to be said, as opposed to masculine anger that's punching holes in the wall or using other people as punching bags. We need to know the difference.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. Well, don't you think we often confuse anger with cruelty? Like, like we think that there's an assumption that if someone is anger, angry, they're automatically going to be cruel. And it's like, yeah, well, that's often what it looks like in the context of patriarchy.

SPEAKER_01:

But we don't really seem to mind when men's anger, when masculine anger is cruel.

SPEAKER_00:

Exactly. But the kind of anger you're talking about is anger that is a vi is is a signal that injustice has occurred. And it does not mean that cruelty is coming next, but that is often how it's treated, as if being angry automatically makes you a cruel person.

SPEAKER_01:

Often this accusation of bitterness is used to silence the criticism of abuse of power, whether it is in a marriage, whether it is in a church, whether it is in a community, because someone is angry, it seems, or bitter, we take away the truth that is being spoken, particularly when it is in an effort to protect power. And I think we all know that angry women get shit done. Angry women protect their kids. Angry women leave situations that are quietly killing them. And I I think it's funny how oftentimes an angry woman, the the trope of an angry bitter woman, is given when she's actually fighting for justice for other people as well, not just for herself.

SPEAKER_00:

Right. Right. Because then she's threatening the whole system. Correct. Yeah. And the people who've been benefiting from that system don't let that happen. No. You know, despite all these realizations that I've been having, and my anger at the way that our society traps so many women in unhealthy relationships. Um, lately I've been finding myself remembering the good times in this relationship that just ended. And at first I thought I'm missing him. And then I realized no, I'm missing the dream. I'm missing that dream where we were both growing together, where we were, we had a relationship that really was mutual. And I realized that both of these things can be true. Um, and this is kind of this awkward place of growth, as most growth phases are, where on one hand I know that ending the relationship is the right thing to do. And I'm not rethinking that at all. And yet I still feel grief over the loss of that dream, because I would love nothing more than a true partnership and having someone to share life with. And I was listening to some talks by uh Dr. Romani and Brene Brown about the grief that often follows a breakup, about how as time goes on, like say a month or more down the road, we can start feeling nostalgia for the good times because the bad memories have been fading and now we're remembering the good times. And a point that really hit me was people pleasers like me often have a harder time during this phase of a breakup because our loneliness is partly a kind of withdrawal from the self-abandonment that's our normal. So we're so used to orienting ourselves around somebody else's needs that when the relationship ends, we've lost our reference point. And we have to learn an entirely new set of skills. And we have to learn how to be ourselves, um, not just another person's tag-along or accessory or emotional support person. And so it was helpful to think of this phase of disorientation, of not really being sure which end is up as a sign of growth. And that that discomfort is part of that change, part of that growing. And and that's a good thing.

SPEAKER_01:

That's an amazing thing. And I think you should be so proud of yourself because I think reaching that point and understanding that, not just about the relationship, about yourself, is so insightful and even bold.

SPEAKER_00:

Thank you. I, you know, I know after my marriage ended, I heard a lot of advice about how after a relationship is over, it's really important that you take time to really get to know yourself outside of a relationship, know who you are, and don't get into a relationship too soon. And, you know, bottom line, people, everybody's journey is different and one size does not fit all. But I feel like I understand that in a new way now. Cause at times that has kind of felt to me like you're not mature enough for a relationship. You know, it's felt that way, and it's I'm seeing that in a little bit different way now. And I don't know if I would have learned this if I hadn't been in this relationship, you know. So like sometimes I think we we just we learn things as we go and there's no there's no detours. Um, but what has come with this realization that is really exciting for me is that for the first time in my life, I can honestly say that I'm at peace with being single. And it's not a decision I made. It's not, it feels like it's just it's just something that has come over me um with this change. And I have more dreams and ideas that I want to pursue. I'm not bored. Um, once I can get my health to stabilize, I've got a long list of things I want to do. And these days I'm not looking for romance. I'm looking for mutuality. And while we'd be nice to get that in a uh romantic relationship, I'm I'm not holding my breath on that. I'm looking for how I can build that in the context of community, in relationships where I don't feel like I'm the only adult in the room, um, where it's not my job to manage everyone else's emotions. And I really think that kind of mutuality is more likely to come from friendships with women. And I've been really inspired by stories like the tiny house community in Texas, where a group of women created the shared housing, shared responsibility, and real safety for each other. And this women um in or nearing retirement age. And I know that there are people at every age and stage who need community, who need affordable housing, who need a place to land. And I don't know what my role is in that, but I want to be a part of something like that.

SPEAKER_01:

Me too.

SPEAKER_00:

Um having this time this winter during the break to hibernate, um, to let myself lie fallow, as it were, to use that metaphor. I think about these things and and I don't think I'm alone in wanting this. Maybe it's just that the algorithm gods have been looking in my windows, but I see these kinds of stories that are resonating with people uh coming up in my newsfeed. Just the other day, there was one about women in the Middle Ages who formed these communities. Um, and it was, they were not nuns, you know, and it was it was carved. It was in Europe, right? It was in Europe. Yeah, I remember reading this too. It was inspiring to see ways that people have come together in a countercultural way to get their needs met, you know, to to find a space of autonomy when the world around them was denying them that, or a space of safety too. And and this was not like a lifelong commitment they would make. They could come and go as they pleased, but there was still that that sense of community and safety they could draw on from each other. And those are the relationships I'm dreaming about these days. And you know what?

SPEAKER_01:

I think um I think that's beautiful. And I think it's such a great reminder of what a person, what a group can create when they're willing to step out of the norm, when they're willing to step out of the system. And the the culture, the system is what it is for a reason. And I think it takes courage, but it's also so exciting to imagine what can be. Yeah. And and I think it's beautiful. I think it's it's lovely. And and I and to be fair, I think there are men who also would want to be part of something like that. And I think it's just a question of who can do the emotional work, who can manage their egos, who can um be willing to create a world where mutuality is the norm. Expectation. Because I think if we don't figure out a way to do this, there's going to be more and more women telling your story.

SPEAKER_00:

Agreed. And I think that while I celebrate the freedom, while I celebrate that self-actualization, um it comes with grief. Like this was not this was not the first choice. It comes with loss. And I think that's the thing that um that is overlooked sometimes so often in that celebration. And that's what keeps so many of us stuck in relationships we're not, we're that that are not fulfilling, that are not working well, uh, that are not healthy, because uh we don't want to lose uh the good things that come with it.

SPEAKER_01:

Perhaps as a culture, we need to start not just recognizing and acknowledging the validity of a woman's needs, but also the validity of her dreams, the validity of her um wishes, of her desires, of what she wants. There is a lot of power there, and I think it scares a lot of people. But I think if we can somehow figure out uh ways to dig deep um and to create communities where we can support each other, there's a lot of magic, there's a lot of power that can happen. There's a lot of things, good things that can be accomplished. And maybe it comes at the cost of saying, you know, whoever wishes to join me in this, we're gonna do it. But uh it might also uh bring a realization of who doesn't want to join that and who doesn't share the dream, who doesn't share the dream, but who also benefited from the person you were before that.

unknown:

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01:

And and women aren't uh leaving their marriages without grief. There's so much grief in it. But there's also the realization that uh the mutuality isn't there and and and women are tired of begging to be heard, to be seen, to be validated. And uh it is time that uh women are taken seriously, that women are trusted, that women are honored. And in many ways, I think women have had to learn to trust themselves because people in their lives weren't trusting them as they should have. And that's also another level of pain. To realize that all along you were trustworthy, but the system just didn't want you to be trusted.

SPEAKER_00:

That's so true. That's so true. And what's beautiful about this dream of mutuality is that it offers mutuality to everyone who wants to be part of it, it can enrich the lives of anyone who wants to be a part of it, both men and women. And it doesn't exclude anyone who is willing to do that work of mutuality.

SPEAKER_01:

Thank you for spending time with us today. The resources and materials we've mentioned are linked in the show notes and on Facebook at Uncovered LifeBeyond.

SPEAKER_00:

What are your thoughts about college and recovery from high demand religion? We know you have your own questions and experiences, and we want to talk about the topics that matter to you. Share them with us at uncovered lifebeyond at gmail.com. That's uncovered lifebeyond at gmail.com.

SPEAKER_01:

If you enjoyed today's show and found value in it, please rate and review it on your favorite podcast app. This helps others find the show. While you're there, subscribe to our podcast so you never miss an episode.

SPEAKER_00:

Until next time, stay brave, stay bold, stay awkward.

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Naomi Clark

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Rebecca Coblentz

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