Verify In Field: The Millwork Podcast
Welcome to Verify In Field. Your host, Jacob Edmond, CEO of DuckWorks, will be interviewing experts in the architectural millwork industry to bring you insights and knowledge about updates, techniques, and challenges in millwork. Whether you're a seasoned professional or just starting out, this podcast is for you.
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Verify In Field: The Millwork Podcast
Behind the Scenes of Wood Flooring with NWFA's Brett Miller
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In this episode, host Jacob Edmond sits down with Brett Miller, the Vice President of Technical Standards Training and Certification at the National Wood Flooring Association (NWFA), to dive into the world of wood flooring. With 33 years of industry experience under his belt, Brett shares insights into the standards, challenges, and installation methods within the wood flooring industry. Together, they explore topics ranging from wood flooring installation in multimillion-dollar penthouses to responsible harvesting practices. Join us as we uncover the behind-the-scenes details of wood flooring with an industry expert.
0:00 Introduction and Guest Introduction
01:01 Brett Miller's Career Journey
04:17 Role and Functions of NWFA
08:18 Differences Between Factory Finished and Site Finished Floors
15:40 Considerations for Residential and Commercial Flooring
20:18 Challenges in Matching and Maintaining Wood Floors
27:33 Advice for Millworkers on Wood Flooring Projects
28:39 Introduction to NOFMA Certification
29:19 Engineered Flooring Standards
30:25 Refinishable Certification Program
30:58 Importance of Proper Installation
32:51 Wood Flooring on Walls and Ceilings
34:53 Different Installation Methods
42:45 Common Installation Failures
48:31 Sustainability and Myths in Wood Flooring
56:19 Conclusion and Contact Information
https://duckworksmw.com/podcast/behind-the-scenes-of-wood-flooring-with-nwfas-brett-miller
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Real wood floors are both solid wood floors and engineered wood floors. As long as it's made of real wood, it's a part of our industry. Write the standards for the industry. We lobby for our industry.
Jacob Edmond:welcome back everybody to verify and field. Uh, today I have a guest, Brett Miller, who is vice president of technical standards training and certification at NWFA, which is the National Wood Flooring Association, so I'm excited to have him on, uh, talk a little bit about something, um, uh, Outside of just casework and cabinetry in the, the woodworking industry. Um, but something that I know in my experience, we've encountered a lot and there's a lot of overlap. I know. Um, Brett, you've done some work with AWI standards and things like that in the past. So, uh, thanks for joining.
Brett Miller:Oh, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. I appreciate the opportunity to talk with you and collaborate amongst the woodworking industry.
Jacob Edmond:Yeah. So maybe to get started, if you wouldn't mind giving, uh, everybody just a little bit of, um, uh, your background of your career, how you came to where you're at today.
Brett Miller:Oh, of course. Um, so as you mentioned, I work for the National Wood Flooring Association. We're the trade association that represents the wood flooring industry, all aspects and all sectors of the wood flooring industry. It's everything wood floors, real wood floors. Um, I got into this industry 33 years ago. Um, I was in high school answered an ad in the classifieds for a sand and finisher, uh, an apprentice and, um, based out of Denver market out in Colorado and, um, got in. I remember woodshop class from middle school and high school, and that was what, uh, I figured, yeah, this sounds great. So I jumped in, um, and I, I kind of laugh. I started learning wood floors, sanding and finishing wood floors. The one day my, my crew leader was. Called in sick. They sent me out with an installer and, uh, I figured, yeah, I can do this. And I started, uh, racking out a room where you basically just lay out the wood floor before it's installed. And I figured I'd rip down the last row with the table saw and sure enough, um, ran my thumb right through the table saw. And from that day forth, I think I've been stuck in this industry, never been able to get out. Um, but I, I. Put myself through college doing wood floors. I started my own business with, uh, brought in my brother and some, some of our friends, um, in the late nineties and kind of transferred in and through the industry, I sold off my portion of that business back to my brother in 2006, started working for a high end retailer as a project manager, doing some, uh, commercial projects and, and high end residential homes, um, then worked for a finished manufacturer as a sales rep. a technical rep for them. Um, and then I was, um, basically recruited to come over here and work for the association where my role has really evolved. I've, I've, I'm in charge of all of our training, uh, schools that we put together. We do about 90 some odd schools per year around the country in Canada and down in Mexico as well. I run our certification programs where we certify installers, sanding and finishers, wood floor inspectors and sales professionals. Um, I also write for and edit from a technical perspective, our magazine. Um, our magazine is hardwood floors magazine. So I do a lot of writing and reviewing of technical publications. And then we have, I guess, one of the things that makes our organization so valuable for the wood flooring industry is our technical publications. We write installation guidelines, Santa finish guidelines, um, wood species publications, you name it. We've got a whole bunch of them that I manage and write all of that. That content.
Jacob Edmond:Okay. Wow. That's a lot. Um, you know, and I think
Brett Miller:you can stop me anytime.
Jacob Edmond:No, no, no, no. That's it's, um, like, as you mentioned, your role has evolved and grown. And I think, you know, due to your experience, like, which is unique, I imagine your industry, I know it would be in ours. Um, so can you describe a little bit then for mill workers from, you know, our audience, people who work in casework, manufacturing, architectural millwork, that type of stuff, AWI members, um, kitchen cabinet, association members, what is NWFA? Um, and kind of your market, like you mentioned real wood floors. Can you elaborate a little bit more on that?
Brett Miller:Yeah. So we do represent real wood floors. Now real wood floors are both solid wood floors and engineered wood floors. As long as it's made of real wood, it's a part of our industry. Um, We, we write the standards for the industry. We lobby for our industry. We work with other, um, wood industries to ensure, for example, with the hardwood federation up on, uh, going to Washington, D. C. and lobbying for anything that affects wood production. Uh, the hardwood industry, I'm sorry, hardwood and softwood industry and, and what it could do from a supply perspective. Um, we do represent the entire supply chain, so manufacturing, distribution, installation, um, sales, inspections, everything through the whole, the whole supply chain. Um, So, and, and we're really the only, the only organization that stands for the wood floor industry. We collaborate with other wood industries, but we also collaborate with other floor covering industries. So we work a little bit with the tile industry and the stone industry and. Um, as much as we don't like carpet and plastic and vinyl and laminate and all of that stuff, we work with them just to ensure standards are consistent and make sure that installation of product is done properly.
Jacob Edmond:Right. Okay. And so in, you know, we've, we've chatted a little bit before that you, you have some experience working with, I think it was AWI on their standards in the past, probably before they became an ANSI, uh, a writer, you know, um, and I think that was around finishing because I imagine there's a lot of overlap, right? Finishing of wood is, is to some extent finishing of wood, right? Um, can you talk a little bit about your experience with that?
Brett Miller:Yeah. I mean, I was, I was called in and, and we have had a loose relationship with AWI for many years and, and, um, have aligned with them on, on several Projects. Um, the finishing standard that I think AWI released a couple of years ago was, it was important because. You're right. Finish is finish. Um, the evaluation of a finished product varies, even though we're, we may be using similar products on the millwork side and the cabinetry side and find furniture and then wood flooring. Um, there's differences, um, in terms of how it, how it's applied, how it, how it's worked out afterwards. Um, and ultimately that end perspective from the end user, what they should or shouldn't, you know, do. Expect as being consistent. Um, our industry, it's, it's always been a A gray area of people, you know, you get into a customer that doesn't like seeing a little piece of debris and a final coat of finish. Well, we're not using lacquers or, or any type of finish that you can work it out and really make it go away. We're using urethanes, water based urethanes. Today we're using more natural oils, hard waxes, things like that, where, you know, that end result is really, um, it's critical, but the evaluation of it, Is it can be challenging. So it was good to see sheen variations, um, application, um, variation. There's so many different things that can affect the performance of that code and then ultimately how, how it performs. That it, it, it was great to see a standard actually be putting in place and actually be a part of that to see how other industries deal with the same issues we see, seem to deal with.
Jacob Edmond:Yeah. And so, you know, do you, the standards you guys write, you know, I imagine it has to specific to finishing because you have pre furnished wood floors as well as finished in place. Right. Um, are the standards different for those, or is that really the finish is the same, but the process of applying it maybe is different.
Brett Miller:Uh, good question. And both are completely different. So on a factory finished floor, the floors are, they go through the, the, the milling process and they go through the finishing process where color and finishes are applied to the floors instantly cured. Um, lightly abraded, multiple coats of finish applied depending on the product and the application. But when a finish is sprayed on in a machine evenly and there's controls on how well that finish is applied to the board, um, and then it's instantly cured through UV, um, there's very little chance to get debris in that coat. It's, it's about as close to perfect as you can get. Um, site applied finishes. Some of the finishes we deal with can take eight to 10 hours just to skin over and start to, to, to flash off where they're susceptible to even finishes. Skin over within an hour are still susceptible to the airborne contaminant that the dust or the debris that the fine particulate that's in the air, especially when you consider on a site finished or if we're sanding that floor, we're creating dust. And that dust, even though we run HEPA filters and all kinds of VAC systems that contain that dust, there's still a bit of dust that becomes airborne and you shut or open a door when you're entering or exiting the job site and that dust just becomes airborne and can fall right into the finish. It can be completely different
Jacob Edmond:Yeah.
Brett Miller:terms of how you judge it, how it's applied and what the end result looks like.
Jacob Edmond:Yeah. I mean, it's, it's a little bit ironic cause we literally just two weeks ago had our floors redone. We had white oak hardwoods put in, uh, on a concrete slab. So glued down. Um, you know, so we went through with the whole, you know, and you're going to, uh, tell me if any red flags go off that, that are, are, are provider didn't tell us about. Um, but right. So obviously they, you know, alerted us say, Hey, this is glued down. We can't nail down. So like there's, you know, you're not going to want to go too wide because, uh, Or a pump attached to it. Um, so when we first got that, the first thing we decided was, a while ago, was that we would install a pump attached to it or a pump that's attached to it. Um, and so, um, While we were working on that, we just realized that, you know, there were So, um, we decided to put it on the unit, and then we installed a pump attached to it, This was sanded and finished place. Luckily we were on vacation while they did it, you know, but obviously there's still was a time period for the off gassing, I assume, or for like that smell bite to work its way out of our house. And I had to clean through my, um, AC filters, uh, a few times as they cycled through, but. Um, can you talk a little bit about, because obviously you just described what's the difference in the finishes themselves, right? And if somebody is looking for like an immaculate finish with no particular or anything, but there's other pros and cons for pre finish versus finish in place, right? And finish in place, I would assume is kind of basically the traditional solution and you get the benefit of, you know, especially like in mine, they did natural hardwoods, but not, not. A1 select, right? There's random links and it's white oak. So there's knotty. And with that, obviously there's going to be, you know, more gaps that they're able to go through and fill as they're sanding and stuff versus a prefinished. And there's not going to be the seams that you feel on a prefinished a lot of times. Right. Can you talk a little bit about all that?
Brett Miller:yeah, I think, I mean, is a benefit to getting a pre finished floor, um, it, it cuts out that time of sanding and finishing and fumes and dust, um, all of that stuff. And it's really a convenience factor. I mean, it's kind of like somebody wants carpet, usually a carpet installer comes in, they move the furniture off, put, you know, lay carpet and, and, you know, put the furniture back on the same day. Same thing can be said for a pre finished wood floor. Wood flooring can be installed and, and people can move right back in when it's installed. Um, you do get beveled edges on, on pre finished floors. I don't know that there are any manufacturers that produce pre finished floors without a bevel today. The type of bevel can vary, you know, and how, how intense it is or how deep it is versus maybe just a little pillowed edge. But the reason is because of the tolerances in the flooring itself. You're going to have a little bit of variance in thickness. You're going to have variance within that subfloor and how flat it is. And when you have two pieces of wood, but together, If there's any variation at all, you'll get a sharp edge. And on a pre finished floor, that sharp edge can chip off, it can splinter away, the color can break away, it can also be dangerous to the occupant. Um, so on a pre finished floor, you're always going to have a beveled edge. The finishes used on pre finished floors or factory finished floors are Again, they're UV cured. They can be urethanes. They can be aluminum oxides. We're even seeing more of the natural oils that are used in these floors. Um, and they're great finishes. They perform very well. Um, on a site finished floor, you have a little bit more opportunity for customization. You're right. It is more of the tried and true method and way that those floors are used. Are designed to perform and be applied. So the floors are installed raw. They're sanded and finished flat filled all the gaps. And if there's gaps or chips or splits or anything in the wood itself, it's filled with a wood putty. And then the floor itself is is. Stained or, or even just finished natural. So like in your floors, four inch white Oak, I mean, yeah, those floors were sanded flat. Um, the sanding process is a unique process. And even though historically and, and really literally when you're sanding a floor, you're creating dust. Um, that dust is contained very well today where I'm sure you guys Had a good company that came in and most companies today are good to where they, they don't let the whole home get blown away with dust. They contain most of that dust. Um, so the dust is really a minimal concern, but floors are sanded flat. Finish is applied. Uh, the finish can take a while to dry. It depends on the process. Um, anywhere between, you know, a few hours to a few days, just depending on the entire process. That all said. With technology, we've actually seen, um, UV machines, UV equipment that can be used to instantly cure finish on site. Um, LED is a new trend that's coming through where they're using LED lights that, um, the, the photo initiators in the finish itself are, are allowing that finish to instantly cure, um, without the potential risks of using UV light. So we are seeing that, uh, convenience factor be brought into the residential side and the site finish site also, where you can site, finish a floor, instantly cure it, move in that same day.
Jacob Edmond:So, you know, that that's a good overview of some of the differences. And so for for people that are listening, because, uh, there's two types of, you know, things we're talking to is like, like what I just explained in a home aspect or in a personal aspect. Yeah, I think it's. It's interesting to educate, you know, our audience on the differences in engineered versus finishing place, hardwoods and stuff. But also, you know, I've seen a lot of flooring be spec'd in jobs I've done in the millwork aspect by architects like, Hey, we want to cook, cover this wall in a spec flooring. Right. And a lot of times that's going to be a prefinished almost always actually, it's going to be a prefinished right. Just, Hey, we want the look of flooring on the walls, right. And are on a desk or things like that. Um, But I imagine you, you see different trends in residential versus commercial applications and across the board a lot, right? Like I imagine commercial is more often than not, probably going to be prefinished, probably going to be something in a, uh, a high visibility, like customer facing. Part of an office or a business or something like that, right? Do you see like NWFA members or you know, the things kind of you guys educate and speak to do you see differences between residential versus commercial
Brett Miller:Yeah. I mean, it's important to take a look at the type of flooring and what's going into a commercial space. Residential, you'll see anything and everything go in. Commercially, I think we've all walked into shopping malls and seen that wood floor that's installed and it, it looks great when it's freshly installed or freshly refinished and not a weekend or two weekends after a lot of heavy use and it doesn't look real good. And that's one of the negatives that, um, an improperly specified wood floor can have on the impact of the consumer. Ultimately, they see a wood floor that gets beat up and worn down pretty quick in that type of an application with high heels and people dragging stuff and, and uncontrolled environments. Um, so for a commercial application, we are seeing more of the finishes that are used that are easier to maintain. A lot of those floors that I mentioned in a shopping mall and I can picture a specific floor that had a UV cured, you know, finish on their aluminum oxide or whatever. And it's a very hard, very durable finish. But after a short period of time when it starts. gouging down and wearing off with extreme heavy use. It's wearing down and it takes away from the aesthetic. Using natural oils, using, um, some of these lower sheen type finishes, uh, really do wear better and they're easier to maintain and easier to, to, to really keep looking good. Um, we're also seeing more on the durability perspective. I mean, there's nothing more durable than a wood floor. Maybe with the exception of stone or tile, um, in terms of how well it performs the beauty of a wood floor is, it can be refinished stone and tile. I mean, when they start wearing down, you're talking about removal, extraction and replacement, whereas a wood floor can last centuries. If it's If it's maintained properly and can be refinished several times and even the color changed. So from a durability perspective, we look at the species, you know, what species of woods going in harder species like white oak, hickory, maple. Um, we see a lot. We're actually seeing, if you take a look in a lot of these bigger commercial projects like airports, museums, a lot of ingrain. So the flooring, rather than being cut, um, plain sawn or quarter sawn or rift, um, it, we're taking the end grain. So it's actually, in theory, no, um, actually, so like a, a piece of end grain like this. So you're laying this down flat and it can be cut. And, you know, different shapes or squares or anything, but when it's laid flat, you've got the ingrain of the wood. It's going to be about in theory, four times, at least four times more dense than the same piece of wood sitting on, on its flat. So
Jacob Edmond:require different? You Different finishing processes. I mean, it's going to absorb finish differently and stuff, right?
Brett Miller:definitely does. I mean, you've got those open pores, the straws basically that need to get filled up. So natural finishes, they can soak in, harden within the wood fibers and then start building up on top. Yeah. What you don't want is a film finish that really will soak in. You want something that's going to absorb in and, and help that condition it, uh, similar to, to reconditioning leather. I mean, it allows you to recondition those floors over time.
Jacob Edmond:So something else, you know, the, we were brought, was brought to our attention and choosing our floors. Like for us, you know, we, we're planning on doing more things over time, changing out our kitchen cabinets and stuff. And so a big factor for us was, you know, hardwood floors we can refinish and we can even. Stay in a different color down the road if we wanted to. And, uh, in addition being that, you know, ours is white oak, random links. If for example, we did have damage and we needed to replace a piece in or stitch in an area or replace a piece of wood or something like, you know, if I've, I've picked a pre finished brand name floor, there's no guarantee that that exact model is going to be an existent. I can buy more of it in five, 10 years if I Pretty confident that we can get some new white oak and stitch it in and piece of piece in right? In addition, you know, there's factors of like over time UV exposure and the color changing and stuff Can you talk a little bit about that like things that people? Who maybe aren't educated on wood should be considering and I imagine in a like a mall That's gonna be even more extreme than just in somebody's home, right?
Brett Miller:Yeah, definitely. Um, yeah. And you mentioned a few things there and I think that's, that really is. An important factor, the, the, the prefinished version versus the unfinished version, yes, you can still get a floor to match if you had to replace boards or sections, if you had a water leak or something like that, but in the prefinished floor, I mean, you may or may not find the same product. And if you do, the dye lots may change over time. You may get a different skew, a different finish, a bit of a different sheen. There's also the, the, the. potential of, you know, matching. I mean, so it's oak. So it's white oak. Um, you don't know if it's a northern white oak or a southern white oak and you get differences in how that wood looks and the grain pattern based on where it grows.
Jacob Edmond:because I know like even in roofing and shingling, right? Even within the same job, you know, it is best practice to look at the lot numbers and actually mix the bundles you get on the same roof at initial install. Is it the same thing with Prentice floor for pre
Brett Miller:Absolutely. Yes.
Jacob Edmond:we're, we're talking down the road, but even day one, you have to consider that. Yeah.
Brett Miller:and we write that pretty clearly in our installation guidelines that when you're laying out a floor, you're racking it out. You want to make sure that you're pulling from different bundles. You're mixing and matching because you could get different trees, different batches, different, different people that were grading the material. And even though they're all within the grade. You may get one that shows a few more, you know, mineral streaks or knots than, than another bundle. So you want to mix it and match it up pretty good. And the same even holds true with an unfinished floor. You may see a little bit of variation from, from bundle to bundle. So mixing and matching is, is always important.
Jacob Edmond:Cause I mean, I know we, you know, even in millwork when we're doing casework where we're doing stain grade or even paint grade, you know, like for some mill workers listening, if you imagine, Hey, I finished this batch of cabinets today, but a week from now that I'm Batch of the same finish could be different, right? My mixture could be off. My, my color matching could be off. And so consciously, you know, a lot of times we're having to think like, Oh, I know that that's going to be in another room in another part of the building. So if it's off by a little bit, you're not going to see that. But if I were to replace one door on an elevation that's already done, that that becomes problematic. Um, and very difficult to match, you know, do you have that like on a large commercial job, you know, obviously you want to pull from different bundles, but if. From an installer perspective, you know, I imagine they're thinking, well, this is in a different room. They're never going to see them next to each other. I imagine that can be a consideration that you can use to your advantage.
Brett Miller:sure. And I think, I mean, you can talk through both elements, not just the wood and the wood is the, the, the real issue when, when people get into troubles with matching wood, it's when they're doing an add on or they're coming back later down the road, or they're buying from two different suppliers at once. And that's where it really is blending it all together. But the other side of it, like you said, is the color. and the finish, the sheen, the color variation. So if you're using stains or some sort of a color on the wood floor itself, you may get a variation from gallon to gallon or pint to pint, just depends on
Jacob Edmond:Right.
Brett Miller:itself. You know, batching, uh, colors together, batching finishes. There are standards for how much variation, uh, sheen variation there may be within a finish. Plus you'll get those variations based on how well you mix the finish that, you know, if it's a lower sheen, like a mat or a satin sheen, those matting agents tend to settle at the bottom of the container. And if it's not stirred in or mixed in properly, you could have variations there too. So batching all of that stuff together is, is, is really important. We're seeing more of a trend in the wood flooring industry going back to showing off the natural color of the wood. You know, we went from darks to, to grays, to whites, to now we're seeing back to natural, which I love. I prefer. So the nice thing with that is you don't have to worry as much about matching colors. Color dye lots. If you're using a gray color, you don't, you don't have to be as concerned what you do need to be concerned about to your point is color change and not just the wood itself. I mean, all woods have some level of photo sensitivity, but also the finishes and how the finishes some finishes can amber over time and other finishes. Less, but all will ultimately change, especially when they're exposed to any sort of sunlight or UV exposure. So matching can be very difficult. It really takes a keen eye and someone with a high skill level of color. Uh, matching to be able to try to come up with matching an old yellowed out polyurethane floor. Um, if you're just doing a little repair, so down the road, like on your floors, if you had to do some repairs, a lot of times, and we deal with insurance companies and the claims that they deal with, a lot of times we just, I mean, the easiest thing to do is unless there's an easy break off point, like you mentioned that. You know, you've got a room and the lighting is different and all of that. A lot of time it's best just to refinish the entire floor at the same time.
Jacob Edmond:Right. So for mine, like I have, you know, a living room that's gets a lot of sunlight. Right. But then I have like a coat closet that they 10 years, those are going to look different. Right. Right.
Brett Miller:A lot of people see that like if you've got an area rug sitting on top of that floor, you'll see the difference. Um, white oak tends to fade a little bit over time, depending on the color or the finish that you put on there. But, um, I had walnut floors that they fade, they bleach out quite a bit over time. Um, so it really is. It just depends on, um, how much sun exposure there is. Um, and the species. I mean, you get into a walnut or some of the tropical woods like jatoba or even American cherry that just changed so drastically. You pull that rug away and you have two different floors or in your closet. It could be completely different from the floor that's exposed to the sunlight.
Jacob Edmond:Right. So, uh, Let's talk a little bit about, you know, so for a lot of my listeners, I'm no workers, right? A lot of times, especially in commercial, um, I've seen this a lot where the architect specs wood flooring, you know, on like I've seen whole reception areas where it goes up the wall and across the ceiling and things like that. And mill workers though are pricing that. And in general, like we know wood, but we're not familiar with wood flooring as a product at the love you are. So what are some things that You know, we can educate our audience that they should be thinking on one about the product itself You know, how can we how can they research specs and things like that? And two if they are looking to hire a wood flooring installer, you know Are there some ways that they could be vetting? Quality contractors, you know, or that what are some things that we should know?
Brett Miller:No, those are both good questions. So, on your first, um, looking for quality product, I think it's easy to go through and, and price by, I mean, shop by price. The higher the cost, the better the product. We have a couple programs in place. One is the NOFMA program. It's a certification program for mills, solid flooring mills. Okay. That they have to meet minimum standards, grading and tolerance standards. Um, NAWFMA has been around since 1908. It's, uh, uh, uh, very well recognized within the wood flooring industry as the standard setter for, um, milling and grading of solid wood flooring. So, it's a great way to search for a mill that you know, um, meets those minimum standards. Um, it's a voluntary standard, so it's not a requirement and not all mills are gonna, are gonna go down that road. Um, HPVA also has an engineered flooring standard that we have adopted. It's the EF, it's an ANSI standard. ANSI EF 2020 I think is the latest. And it too is a grading and manufacturing minimum tolerance for engineered wood flooring. Um, just a couple years ago, we actually pulled together a program for consumers to really understand whether the floors they get, engineered floors in specific, are capable of being refinished. Engineered floors are great. They're made of real wood. The topmost wear layer is real wood, and then the core material may be plywood or, or a lot of different wood type products. But that topmost wear layer, the thickness, is what Really gives the life of that floor, whether it can be refinished or not, if you get a rotary peeled veneer, it's not going to be able to be resanded down the road. So the life expectancy of that floor is going to be less than an engineered floor. With a nice wear layer on top, a sawn wear layer or a solid piece of wood. So we put a certification program. It's called the refinishable certified refinishable program. And it's just got a nice, very simple stamp that consumers can, and, and professionals in the industry can sell and understand what they're buying. So they know that floor can be refinished numerous times down the road. So those are a couple of ways to differentiate from product itself. Um, And then obviously buying from reputable manufacturers and knowing where they, where they're sourcing their products from, where their product, where their lumber is being sourced from, um, and all of that stuff. As for the more, in my opinion, the more important aspect is the installation. Who installs those floors? We do have a certification program that we certify installers. We ensure that they meet minimum qualifications to be able to install floors properly. Um, we have a website where people can actually search and find certified professionals in their, Zip code or their region. We've got them all over the world. Um, but I think it's something that even a poorly manufactured product can be installed by a certified craftsman, and it can perform properly. Whereas the most expensive, highest quality wood floor can be installed by someone who doesn't know what they're doing and they'll trash it. And that's. To me, the installation is the most important part.
Jacob Edmond:So on the installation, you know, like in that example, a lot of what we see that mill workers might, you know, interact with the stuff that's going to be put on a wall or put on one of our products, right. A wood flooring product that they are a lot of times the architect. I like this sample. I like this product. I want this here. So it's not even really in a flooring application, right. Um, but it is a wood flooring product that, you know, our mill workers might be installing the field. So say, for example, it is. Hey, we're going to, the mill workers are going to build a wall assembly and they're going to install this on the wall and they have to install it in the field or even in the shop. You know, a lot of times I've seen, you know, if it's tongue and groove, right, it's pretty easy. You can, you know, staple or nail the tongues, but is there some consideration that we should, you know, they should be thinking about, for example, whether or not there's a full Continuous substrate, or if they're just applying it over like studs, basically. Right. Um, if there's tongue and groove and it's not in a flooring condition, you know, would you say there's a problem with that?
Brett Miller:a difficult one. I think installing wood flooring on walls and ceilings, we get asked quite often, if we're going to write standards for how to install wood flooring and other applications, and we don't, we can't, there's too many other variables, um, in terms of, you know, load on the walls, what the, you know, if it's just drywall, that's up. Um, what, what the capability of that drywall to hold the adhesives or the fasteners, um, not to mention electrical and plumbing and everything else that's behind walls that we don't typically run into on subfloor systems. So we don't get into that. Um, when you start talking about wood flooring on ceilings, there's the, the, the, the weight and everything that's added to that ceiling and whether that ceiling assembly can withstand adding that much weight with the proper installation. I know there are standards that are out there. I'm not sure if AWI has gone down that road yet, but we have stayed away from it. Just from a,
Jacob Edmond:Liability standpoint. Yeah. So as, as just a flooring guy through and through. Or maybe if you were to, you know, infer what flooring guys would say. I mean, I imagine a lot of them say, why are you putting flooring on walls? Why are you putting flooring on ceilings? Right.
Brett Miller:I think it's, it is, and I love it. I, the more wood, the better. I think it's, uh, and, and a lot of our manufacturers have actually, flooring manufacturers have actually started producing product, more specific, more of a shiplap as opposed to tongue and groove, which it works great. And they've asked us for installation instructions. We just won't go down that road, but I, it's not far fetched from what we already do with flooring. It's just a matter of the energy needs to be placed into all of those factors to make sure that it's done properly and what fasteners should be used. And you know, what adhesives and to your question, whether it would be better going straight to the studs versus going over a sheet rock or, or anything else. I think that's all, uh, It all needs to be vetted before really putting a standard in place.
Jacob Edmond:Yeah, so let's talk about then, you know actual flooring properly in its in its purpose, you know at a high level What are kind of the different levels of of installation? You know, I know that there's like mine It's just glued down that I can't nail into the concrete There's floating installation. There's When you install it on like a wood subfloor, there's nailed or nail in glue. Can you talk about you know, those like what's the best? You What's the most compromised and kind of in between
Brett Miller:Yeah. I think I come from a market that was primarily nailed down. It was mostly wood sub floors, homes built over basements or crawl spaces. Um, nailed down is very common. There are fasteners that are specifically designed for wood floors called cleats, flooring cleats. Um, And, uh, the fasteners hold the floors in place very well. In your market, or where you're at, you know, over a wood sub, I'm sorry, a concrete subfloor, glue down is, is prominent. I know in, in states that are primarily slab, um, you're going to get glue down. Now, in some markets, like in, in the Texas market, they have slabs, but they'll build up over the slabs with a wood subfloor. So you can nail and or
Jacob Edmond:there a lot more too, I think.
Brett Miller:Yeah, definitely. And moisture can be a bigger issue if you get into the Gulf Coast area to where they're actually laying a hot tar or some sort of a moisture barrier over that slab and then laying sleepers or screeds over the slab and then nailing to that. So, there's different applications,
Jacob Edmond:so like in my case, glued down, Cause in general, right, you know, you're taught kind of in construction, you don't put untreated wood directly in contact with concrete. Right. Um, so does the mastic, does the glue act as a barrier or is there just no barrier and it's okay? Or is it kind of just a compromise to, to install that way?
Brett Miller:No, good question. Um, anytime you have a slab concrete slab, especially if it's on grade or below grade, you have moisture is always going to be an issue. Even on a 30 or 40 year old slab. You don't know. Technically, you should have a vapor barrier installed below that concrete before the concrete was even poured. But you don't know the concrete guys. I mean, if they were poking holes in it while they were pouring their, their, their, uh, their concrete, just to make sure it dried off and drained off better, um, you don't know the shape of the, the, the moisture barrier below. So, we always recommend using some sort of moisture control over the slab. A lot of today's glues, the adhesives do have moisture control capabilities. In them, um, there's two step systems where you're applying some sort of a sealer or an epoxy or something like that that will block out that moisture and then the adhesive would go over that and you glue straight to that. Um, If it, if your slabs above grade, if you're at a second story or higher, like in a high rise or commercial project, less of a concern concrete porous, it's always going to find moisture can always find its way through, which is why an on grade and below grade applications. We always recommend a class one vapor barrier in that installation process. Now, in the case of laying plywood over a concrete slab, um, yeah. That can be done. It can be done by way of laying down like a six mil poly plastic or, um, a liquid vapor barrier like epoxy or some of these other sealers over that slab and then laying the plywood over the top. Um, you can float the plywood, you can glue the plywood, you can nail the plywood. I don't like the nailing portion where you're driving pins, um, into that slab because you've penetrated the vapor barrier at that point. I think it's, there's a lot of different applications, which is why I've got 180 pages of installation guidelines that talk through all of the subfloor applications, all of the different preparations that are required for proper performance of a wood floor install. But, you know, those two installation methods, just to get back to your question, are the most common. From the, for the wood flooring professional, the third has its place also. And that's a floating floor installation, like a click lock type system. Those type installations are more common in commercial applications where acoustical underlayments are necessary. So you've got a wood floor that's not fastened anywhere, but it's floating. Over an acoustical pad to minimize that sound transmission from one floor to another. They're also relatively popular in basement renovations. So people might want to put a floating floor down there. Um, it's different. It's a different application. You walk across a floating floor, you know, it's a floating floor. It's not fastened. It doesn't necessarily feel solid underfoot like a nailed or a glued down floor. But, um, that said, they can still perform just as well. And they're, they have their, their place.
Jacob Edmond:Are there any, so floating, you know, obviously is not ideal. I would, would you say is an inferior installation method to glue down or nail down as far as long term quality?
Brett Miller:I could get in trouble if I said it were inferior. I think it's, it's got its place. Um, I hate to say it's a disposable process. If a floor is floated, it's not fastened to anything in that home. And I've installed floating floors in multi million dollar penthouses and They turn out beautiful, and there are some fantastic floating floors, high end, high quality, can be refinished floating wood floors. So I wouldn't say they're necessarily inferior as a blanket statement, because there's some very low quality floors that can be nailed or glued down also. It's more the feel underfoot. And for people that are really concerned about noise or sound transmission in a commercial application, technically can't nail a floor down to a subfloor unless you build up that subfloor and that subfloor is isolated. You can glue down your floor, but in gluing it down, you still need some sort of a moisture control system. I'm sorry, a sound acoustical type system below, um, and the cost goes up. So, from a cost perspective, floating can be less, um, and in a lot of those different applications, floating is really the only method that's, that's really approved or specified in a lot of those commercial applications.
Jacob Edmond:Okay. That was kind of giving me my, my next, um, my next question is, are there any common practices that you see out in the industry that are. Not approved by NWFA that are like, Hey, you wish they would not happen. Like, are there things that are common out there that are kind of like, shouldn't be done? So the,
Brett Miller:wood floor is one that we've seen a little bit more of. You gotta figure an engineered wood floor is, Dimensionally more stable. It's just by the way of the core material. It's all plies that are cross laminated. It creates a more stable piece of wood, which is why we say those are okay. You know, and below grade installation applications. And it's okay to float those types of floors. But when you hear of somebody floating a solid wood floor. The dimensional stability of solid wood, we know what the dimensional stability is just through wood science and we can predict what that wood floor is going to do if it gains or loses moisture and if it's not fastened to a subfloor and it's locked together with other boards, it's a, we've seen disasters happen. So that has, that's one.
Jacob Edmond:gluing and nailing of a hardwood floor actually does help to combat that movement. Right. And that's part of the, like when you float it, you're basically just giving it free reign to, to expand and that compounds across the whole floor.
Brett Miller:Correct. Yes.
Jacob Edmond:what are some of the most common failures that you, you see in, in wood floors? Um, you know, are they a result of bad install practices, inferior product, or a combination? Like what are some of the common, uh, mistakes that you see that cause failures?
Brett Miller:Most, the most common failure is related to moisture. So whether it's moisture from below, If it's moisture from below that could be installation related, or it could just be an unforeseen moisture issue that's come up from a crawl space or a basement or a concrete slab moisture from above leaks all sorts of things, but the conditions in the space are really some of the more common. Um, let's say floors installed right now. Depending on where you're at, the most humid part of the season and then come wintertime, uh, if there's no humidification in the space, that floor shrinks up a little bit, you get gaps or vice versa. You install a floor in the middle of the winter months and then it gains moisture in the humid months and it slightly cups. So we see wood floors just fluctuate based on the conditions that they're surrounded in. So, uh, lack of control on those conditions, um, by the homeowner is. One of the biggest causes for issues in wood floors, noisy wood floors, you know, one of the other issues that we see happen, we have underlayment, acoustical underlayment manufacturers that say you can nail through their acoustical pads and that causes all kinds of noisy floors issues, crackling, popping, creaking, squeaks, all that stuff. Um, Noisy floors, squeaky floors are just a part of what floor is long term, but when it's produced by a poor manufacturer spec or improper installation, that can become a pretty big issue.
Jacob Edmond:That's interesting you bring that up. It just brought up a whole another category that we haven't talked about yet, which is stairs But we did I did I don't know maybe a decade ago a Mass General store I don't know if anybody knows Mass General stores are but there are a lot of times in a downtown area It's kind of an old timey Department store and and there are a lot of times in old industrial buildings and this one in particular we did Some upfit and did the stairs and it had original hardwood floors throughout the level. And they wanted us to kind of match that, but they specifically wanted the stairs to squeak. They wanted them to have the same floors that the wood floors did, which when you walk in the floor, all the floors squeak because they were original and that was like what they wanted. So we, our installers intentionally were. installing the stair treads and trying to put like washers and plastic or things under there so that they would squeak. Um, do, does NWFA cover stairs, stair treads, stair risers? Is that a whole different thing?
Brett Miller:It is a whole different thing. We have done schools historically. Um, I we've actually aligned with the stair builders manufacturers association, SMA. And. Um, we partner with them for anything stair. They were, I mean, they're a critical part of writing the building code for stair requirements, uh, proper installation methods, including treads, risers, and handrails and stringers and skirts and every other component of the staircase. So we deal, we work directly with them. And anytime somebody asks about training, I refer them to SMA. Um, they've started putting together a really good training program. Um, We've hosted a couple of their schools at our facility here, um, and they do a nice job with it. They, they do, um, mill tours of, you know, of all their members and they've got their annual show. They're part of our show each year also. So it's a good group. I similar to walls and ceilings when we start jumping into something that's a little bit different in terms of. And I even think about our installers, what their insurance policies cover them for. They're typically not going to be covered for the liabilities that are involved with staircases, um, with rise run, people falling down the stairs. I mean, all of that stuff, the handrail placement. So we rely on them for those specs.
Jacob Edmond:Cause I mean, in general, like obviously a lot, if you have stairs and you're having wood flooring above and below, and maybe even you have a landing that matches, which I know we've done that before. And a lot of times the stair treads. and risers are a different thing, but you want them to match. But I mean, in general, it's a kind of a no no to use wood floor planks as your stair treads. Or is that not a hard line that can be drawn?
Brett Miller:um, generally speaking, you don't do that. I think you can and it can look okay, but it looks nicer typically on a staircase to have a solid tread and a solid riser as opposed to individual planks that are separated. Um, but the, the thing that ties our industries together from the stair builders and the flooring installers is the finishing. And matching of the woods and the finishes and all of that stuff. So stair builders typically like. Like most, um, fine woodworkers aren't using the same finishes and stains that we are. They're spraying a lacquer or, or some sort of a finish that, that's different. Um, so when they start getting into using a wood floor finish, the dry times are different. You know, it's not something that's usually sprayed on, it's, it's hand applied or brushed on. So there's a lot of different, different variables there. So that's really where we all tie together. And ultimately when you're walking up and down stairs, you want something underfoot that's going to wear similarly to the wood floor and lacquer is just not that lacquer is not designed for that sort of heavy use.
Jacob Edmond:So are there any myths out there around wood floors, um, and flooring that you would like to see dispelled or you'd like to, you know, here's your platform. Hey, Guys stop believing this or stop repeating this, that type of thing.
Brett Miller:Yeah. Um, well, I think there's a couple, I think the biggest one is. Is one that I think our industry in the wood industry in general is starting to overcome and that's that for some reason I think we were probably similar age when we grew up, it was always taught that it's a bad thing to cut down a tree and you know, you go back to, you know, 30 years. And, you know, you had so many activists saying, stop cutting down all our forests and all of this. And, um, what, what I think we've overcome is the idea that at least where most of the material is, or all of the material that that's sourced for the wood flooring industry, at least in the United States, North America is sourced from responsible forests and responsible harvesting of wood, cutting down trees is healthier for our forests than it is bad when, uh, harvested responsibly. I think the, the, the myth that cutting down trees is a bad thing can be very damaging, and it can be very dangerous when used wrong. I saw a post not long ago, uh, somebody who showed a tool that was going in and just basically grinding Trees down and, and, and clearing out areas of forest. And this I think was happening in, in the Amazon or somewhere. Um, not in the United States or not in North America. And although there's a healthy reason to do that in some instances, a lot of the forests and a lot of the material that's used for flooring and woodworking in general here is pulled from forests. And the forests are healthier today than they were 50, 60 years ago. So I think that's one of the biggest ones. Thanks. And then to tie in with that, we see so many consumers and uneducated salespeople selling flooring based on how waterproof it is and scratch resistant it is, and they're selling these plastic products that are, um, the opposite of environmental and sustainability. The wood flooring side of what we work with brings to the front. So the green story that comes along with wood and wood flooring, I think, is the biggest thing that I'd love to see. People's minds change about
Jacob Edmond:I was at a conference not too long ago and there was a representative there from speaking, I think from one of the hardwoods associations of the U S um, and you know, this is at least specific to hardwoods, but what he explained on that topic of sustainability is that one, There is at a certain age, you know, obviously we learn, well, some of us learn that trees, you know, absorb, um, uh, you know, what's the carbon. And basically there's a, an age at some point, they actually begin re emitting it back into the environment. So trees eventually get so, cause in our mind, we always think, Oh, that the tree as old as it is should just get as old as possible. Um, but there is actually as old as it is that they eventually actually start re emitting. He said that they. In all their hardwood forests that they manage responsibly for harvesting for hardwood use in the U. S. industry, none of them do they plant trees. Basically, the second they cut down, mature tree, there's naturally other saplings around it that now they have access to sunlight and resources. They're not competing with that mature tree that they grow naturally. And so essentially the act of harvesting mature trees that are ready for harvest that have already lived their life and consumed as much from the environment as they possibly can that down now makes way for multiple new young trees to grow and be that next generation. So that was interesting perspective. I'd never heard of, of, you know, what, just what you're saying that is actually more responsible, more better for the environment to, to harvest. Another stat I saw like here in Georgia, you know, there is, uh, there are, there is measuring of Forestation, you know, as far as land management of the, and they actually track, Hey, if they approved building on this site, how many trees, how much forestation are you going to cut down? And we net add more trees than are cut down for new development in our state, at least. And I think across the U S and generally that is a, that is a thing that is managed and it is tracked. And so I know I commonly see people on Facebook and places saying, Oh man, they're just cutting down forest left and right. It is actually something the government, you know, tracks or some entity to say, Hey, like we want to make sure we're actually adding back at least that much coverage. Um, and if you've ever developed, you know, a lot, you know, you know, that there are requirements on, Hey, you need to add back this much. Can it be, um, because you're cutting it down.
Brett Miller:That's right. No, and that's a great point. It's actually, um, coming from Colorado where it was just pine trees and Aspen and cottonwoods. Um. We saw a lot of the, you know, the forest fires that were happening out there just from the pine beetle, pine beetle infestation came through, killed the trees. There wasn't enough resources to remove the fallen trees from the forest. So they just laid and they catch on fire and they create massive forest fires. I was up in Montana one time. And a friend of mine lives just outside of a reservation, Native American reservation up there, and we were driving through forest, national, national forest land, and then the Native American land to get to his property, and there was a distinct line that the local natives. Maintain their forests. They remove anything that falls and their forests are healthy and their trees are healthy and disease free. And then the national forest land was unmanaged based on lack of funding. And you just had trees fallen all over the place. Moving out here to Missouri, where I live now, which is a prominent hardwood state. Um, a lot of oaks, walnuts, hickories, maples, um, a lot of private land and a lot of, a lot of, um, forests that aren't able to be managed either. And you just walk through and you see areas where trees have fallen. They've reached the end of their life cycle. They've fallen and they go back. They, they rot back to the earth floor. And. Part of the cycle, but it's also sad to see a nice 40 inch walnut tree that's fallen and wasn't actually capable of being used before the end of his life. That's what I mean, you're right. I think with the sustainability programs that are out there today, the forest management, um. There, there's more of a concern with people just going out planting seeds all over too dense and these forests coming back thicker than, than is healthy, um, than, than should be, but not an issue here. I think what we really do and have seen, um, uh, a big, um, thrust in is the ability of, uh, Product that comes in from overseas being managed through the Lacey Act and everything else products from countries that are not managed properly are typically not able to make it to to the United States market and that's hopefully detrimental long term detrimental to the illegal forestry and harvesting that they're doing down there. But it's also, uh. Yeah. It's pretty sad to see that the state of some of those other areas across the world.
Jacob Edmond:Well, Brett, I really appreciate all you've, you've come on and shared with us. We've actually gone longer than a lot of my episodes do, and we've had so much and, and we, I feel like we barely scratched the surface. If anybody that's listening is interested in finding more about NWFA, about the standards you talked about, or even just reaching out to you, what's the best way for them to do that?
Brett Miller:Yeah. No, thank you. And I appreciate the opportunity to, to be on your, your show. Um, you can reach out. Our website is nwfa.org. It's stands for national wood flooring association. org. Um, anybody can, is welcome to jump on there, um, reach out to me, my, uh, and I can share with you my email address or phone number. And I'm more than happy to, to. Talk with anybody. We have a tech line that I take tech calls every day. So always happy to talk technical if anybody wants to talk technical stuff. Uh, but my email address is Brett.Miller. That's brett.miller@nwfa.org. Um, feel free to reach out anytime. So I really appreciate the opportunity.
Jacob Edmond:Yeah, absolutely. We'll put those in the show notes for you. So if you're listening, you should be able to go to the show notes and, and click those links. Um, and, uh, I look forward to hopefully having you again on, uh, uh, in the future, Brett,
Brett Miller:Definitely. Thank you, Jacob.
Jacob Edmond:thanks.
