Verify In Field: The Millwork Podcast
Welcome to Verify In Field. Your host, Jacob Edmond, CEO of DuckWorks, will be interviewing experts in the architectural millwork industry to bring you insights and knowledge about updates, techniques, and challenges in millwork. Whether you're a seasoned professional or just starting out, this podcast is for you.
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Verify In Field: The Millwork Podcast
The Art of Millwork Drafting: Insights from Negus Negesti
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In this episode, host Jacob Edmond sits down with Negus Negesti, also known as the Millwork Drafter, to discuss his newly released book, 'The Freelancers Guide to Millwork Drafting.' Negus shares his extensive experience in the millwork industry, detailing his journey from a truck loader to an expert drafter with over 20 years of experience. The conversation explores the 'three pillars of drafting'—drafting the right thing, drafting the thing right, and drafting fast—and offers insights into how these principles apply to the millwork drafting process. Negus also discusses the importance and challenges of freelance drafting in the industry and shares his vision for the future, including advancements in technology like virtual reality and point cloud systems. Tune in to learn from Negus's rich experiences and valuable advice on succeeding in the competitive world of millwork drafting.
About Our Guest
Negus Negesti is a seasoned professional in the millwork industry with over two decades of experience. His career began in 2002 on the shop floor of a contract furniture company and evolved into a path that now includes national projects, training outsourcing teams, and writing The Freelancer’s Guide to Millwork Drafting. Based on the East Coast, Negus has worked for high-end millwork firms like Allen Architectural Millwork in New York, gaining fast-paced, high-pressure experience that shaped his understanding of the full project lifecycle.
More from our Guest:
Negus’s book, The Freelancer’s Guide to Millwork Drafting, is available now on Amazon and at themillworkdrafter.com. Whether you’re building your drafting team or just getting started in the industry, it’s a must-read roadmap from someone who’s done it all.
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The biggest thing to get out of the book, and I, I kind of touch on it a little bit, is, what I call the three pillars of drafting. Drafting the right thing, drafting the thing right, and drafting fast.
Jacob Edmond:Welcome back everybody to verify infield. Today I have with me, uh, Negus Negesti. He is the author of, recently released book, the Freelancers Guide to Millwork Drafting. You'll see him on social media as the millwork drafter. We, we did some work together in the past life at USA millwork and, obviously, uh, Negus. I'm excited to have him share a little bit about his book and just his experience in drafting both, um, in the millwork industry and as a, a freelancer. Welcome to the show, Negus.
Negus Negesti:Hey, how's it doing, Jacob? How you been?
Jacob Edmond:Good. Good. I think, uh, to get started, would you mind just giving a little bit about your background how you first got involved in the millwork industry and, uh, millwork drafting specifically.
Negus Negesti:So I've been in this millwork industry for about 20 plus years now. Um, I think I go back to when I'm going to date myself, but to 2002. Um, when I first got introduced, uh, through a furniture, a contract furniture manufacturing company called, Sorrentino Mariani, basically did a lot of furniture for your, like your high end Marriott hotels, your westerns and things that nature. So, started with them. I was just a guy loading the truck. Then it went from loading the truck to being on the shop floor to operating the saws, the beam saws, the cncs. One of the engineers at the time, he took a liking to me and, uh, gave me their drafting software to take home, and I learned it and they gave me a shot at the drafting table, and I've been here ever since.
Jacob Edmond:Awesome. And I think that's a, a journey similar to, you know, many of us share. Um, many got people, um, listening out here who have been engineers and drafters in this industry, starting through the shop floor and working their way in until. One day someone, the call came, Hey, can you, can you learn the software? Can you come help us in with drafting?
Negus Negesti:Yeah.
Jacob Edmond:Can you share some of the highlights of your career, obviously, how your, particularly, your experiences since that point have shaped your perspective on drafting in millwork. You know, now you've written this book that you've, you've put out there the Freelancers Guide to Millwork Drafting. You've worked also for many years now. Doing drafting for many different companies. Can you talk about how your experience, as a drafter and as somebody working in the shop and as you've grown, have shaped your perspective now and what you're sharing in the book?
Negus Negesti:I've been on the East Coast for the majority of my career. like I said, when I was in the furniture manufacturing company, I was with them for about, roughly about 10 years, I think. Before then I didn't know what architectural millwork was. It was just all up to that point, it was just furniture. Everything changed for me when I, um, went to work for, um, a company called Allen Architecture Woodworth up in New York. And that just opened my eyes to a whole new side of millwork. That was really exciting. Stressful as well. It was really fast paced. It was, um, a lot more dollars, um, at risk, at that time. But yeah, uh, I think, it was funny 'cause at the time I was also in college for, um, drafting design. Um, when I made the move to New York, coming from Virginia. But by the way, um, so I made the move to New York and that was probably, my years I spent in Allen architecture was probably equated to eight years of college. It was a lot of learning and learning on the fly and figuring things out, but it was probably the best thing, best move I could ever made.
Jacob Edmond:Yeah. So would you say, you know, obviously you, you experienced, like you said, it packed a lot, like eight years of college in there. But I, I assume you, you kind of learned a lot of things the hard way as many of us do in this industry. And, you know, in thinking about what inspired you to write this book, the Freelancers Guide to Millwork Drafting. Was that experience and maybe being able to help others kind of fast track that knowledge part of it?
Negus Negesti:Oh, for sure, for sure. Yeah, like you mentioned, it was a lot of trial by error. That's the way somethings just have to be learned. You have to make mistakes, um, in this game. It's not, um, it's pass or fail. It's pretty much either you, you pass or you learn. There's no downside to that. Um, the idea for the book, where the inspiration for the book came from me working with, um, I was with another company in that island um, had an outsourcing team that they was trying to bring up the speed and needed my help to, to bring them along. So, um, I had to try and get them acclimated to US manufacturing process as soon as, as soon as I could. You know, most, most drafters from out of the country, they, they are technically skilled, whether it's AutoCAD or Cabinet Vision, Microvellum, have the skills. It's just they're not clear on the manufacturing process and how all that goes. So, um, in the book, I do discuss the importance of like, understanding each step in the process from, from procurement to engineering, to the shop floor. All the way to the installation and try and tie all that together so they can get an understanding of some of the pitfalls and some of the minefields that they may come or try, try to avoid those minefields, when they drafting and trying to understand how we process our furniture or our wall panels, whatever it may be. So.
Jacob Edmond:Yeah. So yeah, more and more today, newer drafters are coming to this industry that don't have the benefit of the hands-on experience. You know, you, you had with starting in the shop, right?
Negus Negesti:Right.
Jacob Edmond:But they're technically skilled in drafting and CAD software and things like that. But what they're lacking is that hands-on experience of how the products are built, that they're, they're drawing. Right. Would you talk a little bit about who this book is intended for? You know, is it aimed just at those newer drafters? Is it just for experienced people or, or kind of who is the intended audience?
Negus Negesti:Um, the book. Honestly, I feel like it's, it is for any drafter, regardless of your skillset. I will say it leans more towards those who are newer
Jacob Edmond:Mm-hmm.
Negus Negesti:Into the industry. Um, 'cause I didn't think, okay, I'm gonna write a book and start writing a book. It, it really didn't happen that way. It started out as me creating an outline for SOP. To help those, those new guys, um, or those outsource people, um, understand. So the way the SOP was being written, it was almost like reading a book. So I figured, why not just make it a book? So this really in the outline to a much more, comprehensive version that I'm currently working on now. But yeah, and, and I feel it's, it is more important that we start with the foundation just to really just to go over the standards that apply to millwork in general, regardless of what the company is or what niche that, um, that they serve. So, mean, it's, it's easy to teach, the hows the wins, the wheres, but the why. The why is so important, and that's what I'm attempting to achieve, um, with this book, to get them understand the why factor.
Jacob Edmond:Awesome. And so, you know, uh, this is all about millwork drafting specifically, and, and millwork drafting is unique when you compare it to other types of drafting or other trades. You know, architectural drafting, electrical drafting, there's, there's tons of 'em. Right.
Negus Negesti:Mm-hmm.
Jacob Edmond:Can you talk a little bit about what differs, what we do with, with millwork drafting? What makes it so specialized compared to, you know, other trades?
Negus Negesti:That's a good question. I think all drafting disciplines are unique in their own right. And I think it is that uniqueness is evident when you try to, let's say you try to bring a, a mechanical drafter trying to bring them into the millwork industry. Most people will assume that, that would be an easy transition, but it's not. Some of those skills don't carry over to millwork the way people think it would. You take, even somebody who's already in architecture, maybe you guys, somebody that's doing BIM modeling, gonna be the same thing. May be a little easier, but there's still going to be some, some hiccups in trying to translate that skillset over into millwork. And vice versa. You can't take a millwork guy and just put him into silver drafting. But I think for me, I think the unique thing about millwork drafting to me, even with all the standards and the rules, there's so much space for creativity in millwork. We work with so many different varieties of material, from wood, metal, glass, acrylics. Fabric. I mean, we, we get to play with all of that. So at the end of the day, we get to mail that into something that's unique and custom that nobody else has. That's the differentiation to me between millwork and all the other drafting disciplines out there, is that, that creativity factor that we still have, I think more so than, than anybody else.
Jacob Edmond:Yeah.
Negus Negesti:I think in the book I refer to it as art because, uh,, I don't know if you ever seen it. I've, I've seen some shop, some really good shop drawings that you could almost put a picture frame around and hang
Jacob Edmond:Yeah.
Negus Negesti:So yeah.
Jacob Edmond:Yeah. And it's almost kind of like both the biggest, uh, pro and also the biggest con. What makes it hard to be a millwork drafter is how, you know, most other trades, there are very, very clearly defined standards and codes.
Negus Negesti:Right.
Jacob Edmond:And so, you know, like with electrical drafting, there's pretty much universally accepted, codes for where switches and need to be and how you label them, what symbols are used on the drawings and things like that. And, in millwork, every shop varies heavily how they like to build things. And also there's so many things that we encounter on a project by project basis that maybe have never been built before. And so it does require creativity, but within that, you also have to communicate with a lot of people to coordinate. I could draw the same custom desk as you, and we could both meet the design intent of the architect, but we might detail the internals completely differently than each other. And both can be right, but it's really dependent on who's gonna build it, how they like to assemble, how they like to cut the parts. Are they, you know, gonna cut 'em on the CC or the saw? There's a lot of variables to take into account and so it is a heavy mix of creativity, technical knowledge, as well as really project management coordination with many different, uh, stakeholders.
Negus Negesti:Correct.
Jacob Edmond:Well, talking more about your book, can you walk us through what readers can expect from the book? You know, so for somebody who hasn't picked it up. If you're listening to this and you're curious, we'll put in the show notes links where you can go straight and buy the book and look at what it's about. But for those that are curious, can you walk us through a little bit what they could expect with any highlights and kind of reading through it? I know you've got it structured where you go, chapter by chapter through a few different topics,
Negus Negesti:Right.
Jacob Edmond:including AWI and, and kind of setting up your workspace and things like that. But as a high level overview, what can people expect if they're gonna pick up your book and read it?
Negus Negesti:Yeah. Like I said, um, now it is basically structured like as an outline. Again, like I said, I'm currently working on more comprehensive version and this was something that I wanted to get out sooner than later. Just to help those freelance drafters that I currently, um, work with. For me, I think, the biggest thing to get out of the book, and I, I kind of touch on it a little bit, is, what I call the three pillars of drafting. Drafting the right thing, drafting the thing right, and drafting fast. I think those three concepts pretty much touch and cover just about anything that you have in, regards to drafting. Um, I can't take credit for that phrase. I'm not sure if I heard it somewhere or I read it, but it stuck with me drafting the right thing, drafting the thing right. And drafting fast. So pretty much take that concept and I carry it throughout the book and how it relates to planning, how it relates to, um, proficiency. Not only proficiency, efficiency as well. I think if you can make that your foundation, I think your, your projects, your job, what have you, be much easier, um, come to you much easier down the line. So,
Jacob Edmond:Yeah, no, I think that that's awesome. I wanna reinforce those, those three bullet points. And I think that not only are, does everything kind of boil down to those three, but I think also in that order.
Negus Negesti:Right.
Jacob Edmond:Drafting the right thing you, you talk about, okay, getting the right scope. What are we including? What are we excluding? Are we drawing the right items? And then drafting that the thing right. So once you've got, I'm drawing the right thing. I've got these cabinets in this room, but not the countertops or I've got these cabinets and countertops, but not the wall panels, right? Then you can focus on drafting that, right. Drafting the thing, right. Which is, okay, are we drawing it the way we're gonna build it? Are we drawing it the way the client wants it, or are we drawing it some way that we can't provide and we're gonna create issues downstream? Are we
Negus Negesti:coordinating exactly.
Jacob Edmond:With other trades, are we coordinating with the right sink or hardware equipments, right? And that all goes into drafting the thing, right. Um, do we have the right materials? Do we have the right thicknesses? All those types of things. And then is drafting fast. And I think that comes last, but it's equally important because it doesn't matter if you draw fast and you draw the wrong thing the wrong way. But once you've got the drawing the right thing and you've got the thing right, then speed is what's efficient, what's important. And so I think that is also something that is, you know, in the construction industry in general, but definitely in millwork is so key because generally we come last on the job site or one of the final finished trades to go in.
Negus Negesti:Yeah.
Jacob Edmond:Everything, everything's always a rush. And so, you know, it doesn't matter if we've got the thing right. And the thing drawn right? The right thing if we're way too late to get it approved and reviewed to meet the job schedule. And so, so many people sacrifice drawing the thing right, to hit the schedule.
Negus Negesti:Right.
Jacob Edmond:And so I think that's where becoming a really good drafter comes in is are you able to, um, do both, draw the right thing, clarify scope up front, clarify details to draw it right and meet the schedule. And if you do those first two things right, it also helps the whole operation and manufacturing to meet the schedule down the road, um, because it doesn't help to get it done on time if you've got things wrong, if they're scrambling and going back and having to get questions answered and clarified that weren't done when you drew things.
Negus Negesti:It's, it's the three pillars. You can't, you can't have one without the others.
Jacob Edmond:Yeah.
Negus Negesti:It doesn't work.
Jacob Edmond:Um, so this is, uh, obviously the Freelancers Guide to Millwork drafting, and we've talked a lot about what the millwork drafting part of that looks like. But this is the Freelancers guide specifically. Um, and obviously you and I both know freelance drafting plays a huge role in our industry, um, for many reasons, and both for better and for worse. Can you talk a little bit about why. Freelance drafting is so important and so prevalent for companies in our industry?
Negus Negesti:I think it is just when the company open themselves up to freelance drafting, they, they'll open themselves up to a much, much larger pool of talent to bring in, um, rather than just, you know what I'm saying, the local, um, what you have, you know what I'm saying, to your, to your reach locally. and also even with that larger pool of talent, they also bringing in a unique perspective on our craft. I mean, just like I said, just millwork is also a creativity thing. So it is, it always helps to, just have a different viewpoint from somebody 9,000 miles away. That could add to, you know what I'm saying, to our craft. And I think once a company can land on a good freelancer or he, she, or even a, a freelancing company, the main hurdle after that is getting them familiar with how you operate. You know what I'm saying? Your standards and your practices. That's, that's always a hurdle. But once, once you get across that, then you have your own A team, so to speak, at your disposal. So now you are also bringing in a more, leaner, more cost efficient drafting process, into your grand scheme of things. I think opening a company, open themselves up to, to freelancers through outsourcing, I think it is, it's always a plus. A lot of people see the hurdle of, like I say, getting them acclimated to their practices. That's not really a hard thing to do. And once you get over that hurdle, then it is all, uh, rainbows and sunshine after that. I just,
Jacob Edmond:Yeah.
Negus Negesti:Wish more companies would do that and see the opportunity there, but.
Jacob Edmond:Yeah, I mean, I think what people need to understand, you know, is that obviously, yes, the ideal, best case scenario is that you were able to handle everything internally with your internal staff, and you were able to plan your capacity to know that we could hire enough drafters, have them trained on time, and they're just there when we need them. The reality is that your workflow doesn't kind of flow that way. You know, when you land a huge job, it's maybe six months or a year down the road for shop capacity, but the submittals have to be done now,
Negus Negesti:Right.
Jacob Edmond:And it's impossible really to just scale up and say, okay, I need 20 drafters for a month, but then I only need five for the next three months. And so having one, those resources just available when you need 'em, but not when you don't, doesn't work. And also being able to staff up temporarily.
Negus Negesti:I mean,
Jacob Edmond:So that's, that's the first part of freelancing, right?
Negus Negesti:right? It is. It is. And it, and that's primarily the reason why we don't, most companies, they don't have just drafters. They have drafted engineers
Jacob Edmond:Mm-hmm.
Negus Negesti:that, you know what I'm saying? So when, they're not drafting, you try and make use for them, in another process. But like I said, have having that outsource team, at your disposal, allows your drafter engineers to, focus on engineering. 'cause engineering takes time. That's, that's a meticulous process. Um, if you want your, um, your products to be machined correctly, if you want the shop to be able to, have the engineers at their disposal, at their readiness when they have questions and things like that. So you want your engineer to be, comfortable and have, have the time and the capability to do the things that they need to need on them, that they need to do without having the stress of, dealing with submittal drawings and things of that nature. So, yeah.
Jacob Edmond:Yeah, and those are two different, you know, a lot of companies, you have the same people doing both the drafting and engineering, and usually that's where everybody starts.
Negus Negesti:All right.
Jacob Edmond:Eventually you get to a scale and a size where one, those end up really being two different phases in the project life cycle. It's getting submittals done, and then it might be months later when it's time for engineering. And what happens then too, is those kind of become competing tasks of, well I need this one guy to be feeding the shop right now doing engineering on projects that have already been approved. But I also need these submittals done right now. And you can't do both.
Negus Negesti:Yeah.
Jacob Edmond:So that's one of the first things. It's like, okay, well I need to keep my shop busy. If I can have these guys keep focusing on that, then I need somebody else to focus on the jobs that need to be submitted right now. And that's usually kind of the first stage where companies are like, okay, let's look at exploring outsourcing. And that's the key is that those partners are there when you need them and not when you don't.
Negus Negesti:Exactly,
Jacob Edmond:But it does take work to be able to onboard them and get to a point where when you do need them and you do need to engage 'em, you have processes that they're able to meet your needs. And I think, uh, like you said, that it, it's not hard unless you don't already have defined internally what your process is or how you guys draw. And if your process is really just a person that has that knowledge, then yes, it's very difficult to communicate to an outsource partner what you need them to do and how you want them to do it. And I think that's what, what this book is, as you said, you started this for a training manual basically, or an SOP document.
Negus Negesti:right.
Jacob Edmond:And I think that's what's so key is this book outlines basically what every company needs to do anyways, which is how do we draft and what's important for us for, for drafting. So looking ahead at our industry, you know, we've talked a lot about your experience, we've talked about the book, but looking at just the industry as a whole, a lot of things have changed that you've seen in the last 20 years, right? And in that 20 years, obviously the industry has heavily gone towards automation and CNC machinery and manufacturing software has changed. We've started to see more CAM based software coming in. We've got Microvellum and Cabinet Vision and many options, but we're still heavily drawing in AutoCAD. right.
Negus Negesti:right.
Jacob Edmond:What are some other changes or advancements that you see for the industry in the future? Coming for us, you know, and, and even just in terms of drafting and technology. What, what do you see in the future for our industry?
Negus Negesti:Let's see, where do I begin? Um, I thoroughly believe that drafting will always continue to play a, pivotal role in the millwork process for, for years to come. What the difference would be how it's going to be a change in the medium in which we use the draft. I mean, 'cause if you think about it, what, 40 60 all the way up to the late eighties, um, where we had large rooms of 20, maybe 25 drafters all sitting at the drafting table. Physically drafted on paper. And now what? We sit in front of our computer screens and we know, I'm saying we drawing our, we draw on a screen. This too will be, will become antiquated. I could really see maybe in the next, I'll, I'll say maybe in the next 10, 15 years, we can be drafting with goggles on, you know, for real. I believe that's, that's gonna be the next step. It's gonna be, um, I wouldn't call it a metaverse, but it would definitely will be drawn into, um, into the cloud. And there's not gonna be computer screens. You're gonna be a grandfather explaining to your grandchildren, uh, what a computer was.
Jacob Edmond:Yeah.
Negus Negesti:But yeah, I think that's gonna be the future of the millwork industry. It's going to be off the computer screen. It's going to be joined in a virtual space.
Jacob Edmond:So more, you know, leveraging augmented reality or virtual reality tools and changing the way we we work, obviously. That makes sense.
Negus Negesti:Yeah.
Jacob Edmond:You already said, you know, that you, you see millwork drafting, continuing though to be pivotal, even though the tools we use might change.
Negus Negesti:Right,
Jacob Edmond:I think that makes a lot of sense. You know, um, it's still gonna be key that we have to define upfront and show it virtually, digitally, however, what are we building and how are we gonna build it right for approval.
Negus Negesti:Yeah. I mean, the drafting tentacles touched every part of the millwork process. I mean, it tells purchasers what to order, tells the engineers what to program, the shop, what the make, the installers, what to install. So it's, it is still a key feature, um, to our processes. Like I said, the only thing that may change is the medium, but that medium has to go to print at some point in time, unless you wanna have people walk around your shop floor with goggles on, everywhere, but yeah.
Jacob Edmond:Yeah, that makes sense. Well we talked about, you already talked about what we see staying the same. That was gonna be my next question, which is drafting will continue to be there. Are there any other innovations outside of drafting that you see, coming, you know, obviously what millwork manufacturers handle has grown over the last 20 years. More metal, more resin, more materials, more types of things. Are there any other trends you're starting to see as you, as you work with clients or these you see changing Just for our industry as a whole.
Negus Negesti:I'm really excited about what I'm seeing in the Point Cloud technology. I think that that has really come a long way since I was first introduced to it.
Jacob Edmond:Yeah.
Negus Negesti:Lately I've been tinkering with, um, software called Open Space and, i'm amazed at the amount of information I'm able to retrieve from that software. I mean, it's, it's phenomenal. It gives me answers to questions that I probably would never have thought to ask. It is packed, chock full of, um, information, um, in that software to be able to, uh, to be on site. For those who don't know, you know what I'm saying? It, it allows us to, to me to be on site, see whatever obstacles that I may be dealing with, in that space. And it allows me to draft according to that. I could see that technology easily, easily morphed into, giving us the ability to put us virtually into that physical space.
Jacob Edmond:Mm-hmm.
Negus Negesti:I think that's where that technology is going. Just the thought of that excites me a little bit. Again, going back to the goggles, but yeah, I guess I can see that point cloud technology is really impressive and, I'm can't wait to see what, um, what comes out of that.
Jacob Edmond:Awesome. Yeah, so the Open Space, that's like where they will take, you know, 360 photos of the job site and then you can virtually basically go in that space.
Negus Negesti:Correct, correct.
Jacob Edmond:But also with the point cloud techno technology. It's not just pictures. There's actually some level of measurement.
Negus Negesti:Yes, yes, yes. You can go ahead, you can pull your own dims outta there. Um, I can't remember which. I'm not sure you do that. I said I'm just tinkering Open Space. I'm not sure if you could do that with open space or not, but I have seen some Point Cloud technology
Jacob Edmond:Yeah.
Negus Negesti:go in and, and you could pull, get your dimensions.
Jacob Edmond:Awesome.
Negus Negesti:it is awesome.
Jacob Edmond:Well, um. Negus. I appreciate you coming on and sharing about your book. For anybody who's listening, who's interested in finding out more about your book or or the millwork drafter or what you're doing, what's the best way for them to to do that?
Negus Negesti:Visit the website, um, the millwork drafter.com. The book is being sold on Amazon. You could also, um, buy it through the site. We on LinkedIn, we on Facebook, on Instagram, all the millwork.com, the same thing. And yeah, just, um, hop, hop on. Tag me. Drop a line. Drop a heart. Yeah.
Jacob Edmond:Yeah. Awesome. We'll link that all in our show notes. So if you're listening to this or watching this on YouTube, you can go to the show notes and go straight to the millwork drafter.com. Negus, it was great having you on. I've always enjoyed when, um, we get to chat and I appreciate you, you sharing about your book and your experience and your story.
Negus Negesti:Hey, I appreciate the opportunity man. Thanks for bringing me on.
Jacob Edmond:Yeah, thank you.
Negus Negesti:Alright,
