Verify In Field: The Millwork Podcast
Welcome to Verify In Field. Your host, Jacob Edmond, CEO of DuckWorks, will be interviewing experts in the architectural millwork industry to bring you insights and knowledge about updates, techniques, and challenges in millwork. Whether you're a seasoned professional or just starting out, this podcast is for you.
Tune in biweekly on Wednesday for a new episode, and visit duckworksmw.com to join our growing community of millwork professionals.
Verify In Field: The Millwork Podcast
Shaping the Industry: James Drury on Training Tomorrow's Craftsmen
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In this episode of Verify Infield, host Jacob Edmond sits down with James Drury, Director of Training and Development at Master Millwork, to talk about the mindset, methods, and mission behind developing new talent in the millwork industry.
From humble beginnings building concierge desks during hotel off-seasons to leading Microvellum training at the national level, James shares his journey through the trades—and how it’s shaped his approach to mentoring, process-building, and problem-solving in today’s millwork shops.
Whether you’re trying to grow your team, modernize your onboarding, or attract younger talent, this episode is full of firsthand insights and actionable takeaways.
About Our Guest
James Drury is a seasoned millwork engineer, former Microvellum service provider, and current Director of Training & Development at Master Millwork. He’s built everything from restaurant bars to technical onboarding programs and has helped dozens of shops adopt Microvellum, improve training processes, and cultivate new talent. Today, James leads training initiatives that scale knowledge, promote mentorship, and align teams with the high standards required in custom commercial millwork.
Where to Learn More
- Connect with James on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jamesdrury-mmw/
- Learn more about Master Millwork:
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I think it is funny how many I how many people hold onto that knowledge as kind of a sense of security, right? Like, oh, I'm, I'm not gonna let them know the tricks of the trade because I don't wanna be out of a job. Well, if we learn to embrace our replacements, it just makes us irreplaceable, right? If we can pass down that knowledge that we have, then. You know, and we're building other people up. Then we've made our job even more secure. We've shown that we can grow that, pool of talent, right.
Jacob Edmond:Well, welcome back to Verify in Field everybody. Today I have a good friend of mine and a special guest, James Drury. He is Director of Training and Development at Master Millwork and has, uh, you know, lengthy background in the millwork industry and millwork and in engineering. Spent some time with Microvellum, spent some time in industry and excited to have him on and talk about his, his background, his journey in millwork and his role today. Thanks for joining today, James.
James Drury:No, I appreciate, the opportunity and, to be on the other end of, of this. It, it's, it'll be good. I'm excited for it.
Jacob Edmond:Awesome. To get started, if you don't mind telling everybody a little bit about your background, how'd you first get into millwork and what let you to the millwork industry to start with?
James Drury:Oh man. Um, it depends on how far, far back we want to go. So, you know, I wish, I wish I could say it all started with a, a high school wood shop class, but truth be told, that was a, a class I failed. It was the first, first period of the day. And half the class was spent in the classroom and the other half was spent out in the shop. So I didn't actually wake up and kind of get going until we, we were out in the shop. So you can imagine, you know, when you spend half your time asleep in a class. It's not exactly A grade material, I guess, pun intended. But no, from there, what, what really kind of got it going for me was, I was working at a ski inn ski out hotel in Deer Valley, and during the off seasons they would close down for six weeks and lay off, you know, probably 80% of, of the workforce. A lot of, a lot of turnover when you, when you have a setup like that, right? Because maybe about 5% of the people would, would come back after, uh, the off season. But you know, I was young, I had a young family. I didn't wanna follow that route. So I was like, you know what? Let me see what I can do to still be employed during those off seasons. So I started looking around the hotel, finding projects I could do. Built some back office cabinets, built a new concierge desk, one that kind of matched our, our front desk. It was like an Austrian themed hotel. Had a restaurant in it. So I, I built a, a new wine room for'em as well. So it was kind of like my first taste of woodworking, kind of, I say as a job. It was, you know, there were still projects. But, you know, I was, I was getting paid to do it. I think it was, uh, 2006. The chef and restaurant manager of of the, at the hotel, uh, left to do their own thing. They started a new restaurant right off of Main Street in Park City and asked if I would do the bar and cabinetry for'em. So I was like, all right, yeah, you know, we got this off season. I get, I got six weeks to, to knock this out and man, lemme tell you a one man crew trying to knock out, you know, a restaurant. It was tough, but, um, it was a lot of fun. So that, that's really, I say where I kind of discovered that this could be a, a career, right? That there's more to it than, building stuff in your garage. So later in 2006, uh, my wife and I, we were just kind of looking for a change. My wife born and raised in Texas, so cold Utah winters were, were not her thing. So I was like, all right, well let's, let's give Texas a shot. All her family is down here. You know, I've been to visit a few times, so we decided to move, but before we did, I was like, I gotta have a job first. I'm not gonna move us all down there and then spend however long searching for a job. Right? Just so happened that her family all growing up, grew up with the Kaler family who owned the Kaler company, which is an architectural millwork company and a general contractor. So they kind of hired me site unseen just because of the, the family connection there and threw me out on a bench. Right. And it was great. You know, I learned real quickly how much I didn't know about cabinetry and, case work and millwork all that, you know, especially after just coming from building this, uh, restaurant bar and the cabinetry there, it was like, oh man, I could've, could've done this a lot easier. You know, had I known. But, uh, no, it was, it was great starting out. But just as my, my wife learned, about cold Utah winters, I don't do well with Texas heat. Right. I, the shop experience was great, but I was like, man, I need, I need some air conditioning. So, so I was looking, you know, for an opportunity, you know, to kind of make my way into uh, the drafting department. But I mean, yeah, that's kind of, kind of where I got my start. You know, I've been in it ever since. I've, I've really, really enjoyed this industry.
Jacob Edmond:So about that time, I think, or maybe a couple years later is when you and I crossed paths probably started on the, the Microvellum forums. And as you know, Microvellum users, we were, were from our respective companies kind of, learning Microvellum And don't remember if it was, crossed paths on the old user advisory board or what it was, but. Obviously you made your way into the office. You made your way into the drafting and engineering team and started really diving in head first to, to Microvellum and learning how to customize it and kind of wield its power for for your needs, right? That was came next for you.
James Drury:Yeah, I mean, essentially, uh, it didn't quite happen that, that quickly or easily, right? I mean, working out in the shop, uh, you know, seeing the shop drawings that were coming out. I had taken a few AutoCAD courses back in high school, so, you know, I, I knew I could replicate what, what I was seeing, and so went home. Drew some elevations and sections, uh, went to our shop foreman and was like, Hey man, you know what? I want to get outta the shop and into that office, like, can you gimme a chance? And he looked things over, uh, talked about it with, you know, the powers that be and I got that chance, right. And just so it happened too that when I came in, they were right on the tail end of implementing Microvellum. And so I was like, oh, great, it's not. AutoCAD that I'm gonna be using, it's gonna be Microvellum. And when I first started training, I, I remember, you know, seeing the software and I'm just like, man, this is, this is AutoCAD on steroids. Like this is awesome. Like, just gonna draw walls, drop in some products, adjusting prompts, and boom, it's ready to go to the shop. Well then we got into the spreadsheet side of things. Right. And I was like, okay, well you know, I've messed around with Excel. I know a thing or two, I can auto sum, I can, you know, format cells and whatnot. And then the first formula I saw, I was just like, well, that's it. I'm going back out in the shop. This might as well be Chinese'cause I don't understand any of this. But no. So I, I decided at that point, you know, I. One, I don't wanna be back out in the heat, so I, I gotta figure out how to learn this. And so I just really dived in, right? Googled everything, YouTubed everything. Just trying to figure out, you know, why does this gigantic formula do what it does? And then just over time, you know, you learn a little bit here and there. And, next thing I know, I'm, I'm creating parametric products from blank spreadsheets and things like that. So that kind of started getting me, you know, further ahead and, and yeah, eventually, took over managing that department at the Taylor Company, which involved, yeah, a lot of, uh, library customization, report modification, just really tailoring it for our needs, uh, building it around our guys. And then, yeah, you know, you, you mentioned the user advisory board and the forums, you know, it was, I'm trying to remember when that was exactly. But you know, I think it was late 2010 s somewhere around there. You know, Microvellum had their, their first tech con in 2014. And so that's kind of where I, I think I got my my foot in with, you know, some of the, the people at Microvellum. Lenny and David and, uh, Clay and, and those guys. And then, yeah, I think it was a couple years later you were at, uh, TechCon as well, and you were showing me, you know, everything that you were doing with formula driven materials. And man, I was just, I was blown away. Like I remember leaving, you know, just with a a fire lit. All these ideas run through my brain of just, you know, okay, how can we take it to the next, next level? How can we, you know, fix things that continue to be problems? Especially, you know, when we get into the material side of things, everybody has different ways they want to name things or whatever. So it's like, you know, those formula driven materials were a way to standardize so much. And so I was really, uh, really intrigued by, by that.
Jacob Edmond:So, and for context for everybody, you know, you mentioned, I think 2006 was around when you guys went to back to Texas or that you were you moving, so you're coming up on 20 years of, of, you know, woodworking industry. Right. And I think that's important for, you know, those who are early career looking at this and trying to understand like, what is that? What does my potential future look like? How long does it take to get this type of experience? But I think it's also important context because you're now in a role as Director of Training and Development, which. You or I didn't have the benefit of having somebody like you to teach us. Right. When we were coming up, it was, as you mentioned, hey, Googling and trying to find information and trial and error and you know, what resources we can, which, um, ultimately I would imagine is a big motivation for your role now is how can you, how can you make it different for people coming up today in our industry? Right.
James Drury:Right. Yeah. I, I wi, I wish I had, you know, somebody to kind of take me under, their wing back when I, when I got started. you know, I remember Uh, the guy that was training me and like, it was just so kind of all over the place that eventually I was just kinda like, all right, I just need to, you know, start with a clean slate. Lemme just almost forget everything he taught me and just learn the way I know how to learn. And so, yeah, you know, it's definitely been a challenge over the years to get to this point. It's been a crazy journey. You know, I never thought, you know, it would take me to the places that it has. Uh, so I think it's, it's awesome to know that there are so many different kinds of opportunities in this industry. Yeah, I mean, as far as. Like the, this, this role is concerned. The thing that really drew me back, to, to master millwork was the team that we had before, most of the guys are still here. We've, we've added some additional people. I, I just really appreciated the chemistry that we all had, uh, the first time. And, you know, we, we really were looking at things, you know, together, we were collaborating a lot. We, we would do, being remote, you know, we, we'd do what we called open work sessions where everybody just kinda pop up a teams call and just kinda work together. And when they had a question, they'd share their screen. And, and you know, we, we just kinda, I say work in silence a lot of times just to avoid distraction, but. When those things came up, we were right there to, to help, help each other out. That, that was a one, one of the things that I was missing when I left Mastermind work the first time, like I, I went into know, I went back to Kaler and, and kind got into... Operations Manager was my title there. So I was, I was fixing, uh, problems, started off with, uh, revamping the estimating process and things like that, but I really wasn't engaged with anybody else. I just kind of like tucked in a corner, like, okay, here's, here's the problem, fix it. Don't know. I felt like I was, missing my purpose, if that makes sense. You know?
Jacob Edmond:Yeah. So can you talk a little bit about, you know, this is a new role, Director of Training and Development for Master Millwork. Right. Um. are some of the, kind of the goals and, and the purpose of this role? Why is, know, Master Millwork obviously is, is putting, you know, money and time and effort investing in something that's, that's very important that a lot of companies have the means or the time or, or kind of the ability to do so. Can you talk a little bit about the motivation from Master Millwork and from your perspective of what's driving this to be such a dedicated effort?
James Drury:Yeah, so Master Millwork has seen a lot of growth over the last seven, seven plus years. I mean, it went from a shop with maybe five or six people in the, in the beginning to, you know, an 80,000 square foot shop with, you know, lots automation. Probably about a hundred people, maybe or so in, in the shop right now, about that many out in the field installing work. So the growth that they've experienced has just been exponential in that short amount of time. And so the, the goal for them is they want to take on the bigger projects, right? They want to establish themselves as a leader of, of high-end millwork. And that's not an easy thing to accomplish, right? Especially when the, the talent pool is shrinking rather than growing. So the, the need for this role is then to, you know, take, the knowledge and experience, you know, for those high end millwork projects and bring up the people, to be able to do those, right. We, and we've, we've got people with all different sorts of, skill sets and different levels of experience and understanding. And it, it's great to see, you know, somebody who's new to the industry but you know, is tech savvy. Suddenly learn that they can do all this work and, they enjoy it. And, you know, for, for us to be able to continue that growth and take on those, those projects, we have to grow our people to grow the company, right? We can't have one or two guys that can do the really hard stuff and everybody else is just kind of in the, in the back, filling in work where need be. Everybody needs to be able to get to that level where we can delegate those different projects out and, and expect the same kind of quality that, you know, our top guys would do. That's, that's our goal here, is to build everybody up. To where we can evenly distribute all that work.
Jacob Edmond:And so how would you say your experience, you know, in your background, in the industry experience as an engineer, how does that influence or shape the way you approach today? You know, training and development.
James Drury:Regarding, you know, the training and development, I mean obviously my experience is as an engineer working in a, in a millwork shop, I. Definitely helped, especially having that, that shop floor knowledge has definitely helped. But, really I think what helped the most as far as, you know, getting to this point in my career, was being with Microvellum as a service provider. So, you know, I, I don't know if you, recall, You probably do. You know, there, there was a time I was looking, looking for a change. I interviewed with you and the company you were working for and, it's kind of a weird story. But in, in, in the short story, you know, we were, we were both serving on that Microvellum advisory board and it was in my, my last meeting with the advisory board and I mentioned that, you know, I was gonna be leaving, I was gonna start working for my dad and, and his company. And like two days later, David Fairbanks, the owner of Microvellum calls me up and he is like, Hey man, we want you to be a service provider. Are you ready, like? Am I ready? Like, what are you talking about? What's a service provider? I, I didn't know what, what all this was. So a service provider goes out, provides training, uh, helps with implementation of Microvellum for the companies that just bought it, right? And, uh, started off, I shadowed one of the trainers. And it went well, you know, so it didn't take me long to get my first solo training job. And, and I remember it so clearly, man, it was. Like we were in a little conference room, had it thrown up on the, the big TV in there and just training was just going, it was just flowing and clicking. Everybody seemed to just be understanding, getting right along with it, you know, even the owner was throwing in scenarios, you know, like, what, what about this, what kind of, what can Microvellum do? This kind of product? And I'm like, yeah, lemme show you how to do that, you know? And I left there and I was like, man. I crushed it. Like that was, that was awesome. Right? Well then the post training review came back and they were like, we don't feel like we can use the software. And I was just blown away. I was crushed. I was devastated. I was like, what are you talking about? Like that, that couldn't have gone any better than it did. Right. And then I realized, well, shoot, you know, I'm. I'm training somebody based on how I learn, and not everybody learns the way I learn, right? I like to get into the weeds really early on because I like to know how all that comes together, how that all clicks. But not everybody learns that way, and not everybody needs to learn that way. So it's kind of a, a hard and humbling lesson for me at that time. Kind of same thing, you know, like when I got into Microvellum the first time, I'm like, I'm not, I'm not giving up. I'm gonna dig in. I'm gonna find better ways to communicate to, you know, get my point across to learn how, you know, how people learn and what they need to be able to read the room, you know, so to speak. So, you know, that has definitely played a, a huge part in what I'm doing now and being able to, see the different skill sets and, and levels that everybody's at, and be able to tailor specific things to those individuals, and explaining the why. I think that's, that's the big thing, right? I think that's what, a lot of new people, you know, coming into the industry, miss out on, right? They don't understand the why. Why, why does grain direction matter? Why does this button do that? Why does this, formula calculate to that? Right? But you know, it's explaining, you know, okay, we're gonna, we're gonna add a part here and here's the reason why we're gonna add that part. And then just, you know, continuing to explore the why to the point where, they're not being taught what to think. They're being taught how to think. They're able to, you know, identify problems and issues before they arise. They're able to think past an obstacle and create a solution. you know, that, that's, I think, probably the, the most beneficial. skill sets anybody can have is being able to just critically think, right, versus just being told what to do.
Jacob Edmond:Yeah. Yeah, I know. I remember running into those similar instances where it was. I would develop a process or I would train my engineers and in the way I like to do things, or the way I knew how I'd figured it out and, and very quickly realizing like, okay, just because this works for me or I can understand this process doesn't mean it's really the best way for my whole team to do things and quickly hitting those obstacles of like, okay, I'm training you guys on a process that I've done a thousand times, why can't you get this? And realizing, oh, this is just the way I think that doesn't mean it's the way my team thinks, or the way my team comprehends the process or, or how to do things. And so, I think that's, that's, imperative to understand when you're in a role where you're teaching multiple people how to do something. You know, one is. You have to be able to have a process that is, everybody can understand, everybody can replicate and repeat. Um, but two, as you said, different people learn different ways. And a lot of times the, the, you know, something I learned, I, I took a teaching course in high school actually is, you know, there's, you can learn by listening, you can learn by watching and seeing. You can learn by doing. And I think the more those different, uh, avenues you can engage when you're teaching the, the, the better people grasp the concepts. And I think, uh, after your time as a service provider, you actually started writing content and curriculum and training for Microvellum. Was there anything you learned from that process of actually, okay, now I'm gonna sit down and I'm gonna write training content, training curriculum that made you, one that you've carried with you or that has made you think differently about training people.
James Drury:Yeah. So, an example I always like to, to use when we would discuss this. You know, you, you think of a, a puzzle, right? You could, you could split a group of people into, uh, three separate groups and you can give one all the puzzle pieces and just the puzzle pieces only, right? maybe give'em some written instructions, right? Piece one is gonna go here. Piece two is gonna go here. Group two, you're gonna give'em the puzzle pieces, but you're gonna give'em the box to look at. And then group three, you're gonna give'em the same puzzle pieces, give'em the box to look at the picture to look at and have some written instructions as well. You know, you'll quickly find out which group is gonna put that puzzle together faster. Right. And I think that was ultimately kind of what I was missing in my, my first attempt of, you know, training with Microvellum is basically, I dumped that, that box of puzzle pieces out on the table. And it was just explaining, you know, how they, how they go together. It wasn't showing what the finished product was gonna go look like. I wasn't explaining, you know, well enough the, the steps or why, you know, the pieces go together in the particular order they do. So when it came to creating training curriculum and, and content. It was, okay. Let, let's give the big picture first, right? We're gonna work on this. We're gonna create this product here, and then, then we jump into the steps and we go back and we check and we look and we see, you know, how close are we, are we getting any closer to what it was before? Yeah, it's starting to, starting to really take shape. All right, let's dive into it a little more. Then, you know, it's like 90% there. Maybe there's some custom stuff that we have to get into, and it's like, all right, now let's, let's dive into the, the more detailed stuff. How do you, you know, modify a machine token, or how do you move a part individually inside of that product and, and then at the end, you know, everybody, everybody gets it. They, they see that their finished product looks just like the product that they were supposed to build. But anytime that picture wasn't up there, and I'm just standing there and I'm teaching people, you know, you're gonna move this part three inches to the right. And it was like people were grabbing the wrong part. They were moving things, everything was just, you know, outta whack. And it was nowhere near what the, the, the finished product should have looked like. So that, that was a big thing, uh, with creating, you know, content and, and curriculum was, you know, how do we just kinda get the holistic view first and then dive into the, the details. So yeah, I, I think that's, that's very important for anybody who's looking to create, you know, any kind of training, uh, for their, their company is, you know, start big picture first and then dive in after that.
Jacob Edmond:Awesome. So talking a little bit about, we talked about training, you talked about your role and your perspective on that. You know, ultimately training is to develop talent and develop people. And you, you mentioned this a little bit, is that, you know, for master millwork you're realizing that, okay, for us to grow, it's, we have to grow our people, we have to develop our people and they grow the business. And everybody that I talk to in this industry, and this has kind of been the case for years and is, you know, the talent pool is shrinking and it's becoming more and more difficult to find talent that. You know, not even just to train them, but to find talent. Right. can you talk about a little bit about, you know, from your perspective, um, that struggle in our industry, what are some of the barriers recruiting young talent and, you know, how have you gone about resolving that issue, finding good talent, that that is trainable?
James Drury:First off, I, I think, uh, the biggest misconception about our industry is that it's a hobby, right? That, that fir first thing somebody thinks of when you throw out the term woodworking especially, is, you know, oh, you're, you're building something in your garage, you're working on a home project, you're, you're doing something of along those lines, right? I don't, I don't think people realize, you know, how much of an industry is is actually out there. So, you know, visibility and awareness of the industry are, are, are big, big thing and something that we, we have to change. And, you know, I, I'm gonna steal a phrase from, uh, David Fairbanks, uh, my time with Microvellum, he used to walk around and he'd say, you know, we need to make woodworking sexy. And what he meant by that was, you know, we, we've gotta make it visible, right? We've gotta make it enticing to where people want to come into this industry. And, you know, truth be told, it already is sexy. We just gotta flaunt it, right? And, and that's, that's where the visibility comes from. So for, for young, young talent, young people who don't know that this exists, I definitely think, you know. Up in your game as far as social media is a must. It's probably the first, first way that people are gonna see that something exists. You know, you're showing the steps in the process of something really cool that you're, you're assembling out in the shop, right? I remember building this, uh, or engineering this big multifaceted, wall feature that, you know, extended between the first and second floor of this, this building. It was so cool to engineer it, but to see it on the, on the cameras, again, you know, I'm remote so I'm not in the shop, but I had a, a feed, a camera feed where I could see them putting this thing together and they built a faux wall to match, you know, the existing site conditions and. Pieced this whole thing together, built this whole thing up in the shop and it was so cool to see that, but I saw it. Nobody else did. Right. Nobody saw that, that process. And it's like, you know, had, had we been more on top of, uh, our social media game, I think we could have, we could have been putting out some teasers, you know, every now and then of, of what that thing was, you know, what are all these weird pieces that are coming together? And then boom, here's the, here's the final product and boom, here's the, the finished product installed. That goes a long way, for just bringing visibility and awareness to the industry. Some other things that, that come to mind just with, you know, our, our younger generation is technology. Again, a misconception with woodworking is, you know, oh, you're just using hand tools to build things, right? You're maybe you've got a table saw or you've got a, a mire saw or something that you're, you know, able to cut things. But, you know, for the most part, they just view it as, you know, we've got a hammer or nails and maybe a drill and screw is putting something together. It's like there's so much more than that. Walk into, you know, any modern shop these days and you're gonna see a lot of automation, CNC machines, point to point, you know, material handlers, you know, all those things are, you know, being run off of programs that are generated, you know, using software like Microvellum. There's somebody behind the scenes that's making all that. All that happen Uh, and so, you know, our younger generation's definitely more locked in on technology. And so getting them to see that, you know, I'm gonna steal another phrase. I can't exactly remember who, who's said this, but the millwork industry is a technology industry that happens to use wood as its medium. Right, and, and I think again, the more our young people see that and realize the technology that goes into it, I think they're gonna be impressed with, with what's available.
Jacob Edmond:there's two good points I wanna re reaffirm there that you made. One is about marketing and social media, and I think for the la vast majority of our industry, their online presence consists of pretty much just commenting on a GCs post of we're, we're, we're happy to be a part of this project. and, or, you know, at best some pictures of work But, you know, I think people str struggle with. Why are they creating content? Why are they on social media as, as a company, as a millwork shop and, and in general, everybody sees it as a means to gain more business, which it should be that, it is that, is leads for that. But, our, in our mill workshops don't get business by, it's not a direct to consumer business. You know, it's B2B and we're gaining relationships with other contractors and stuff, and so what very few, if any, do is create content that makes people want to come work for
Jacob 2025:them.
Jacob Edmond:and I don't think anybody realizes how vital that is and how easy it is, frankly, to improve this specific problem, which is the talent crisis by having a presence. Because the first thing anybody under the age of 40 does when they get apply for a job or they get reached out to by a recruiter or, or somebody for a job, is, well, I'm gonna go look them up and see their website. Are they on LinkedIn? Are they on any other platforms? Like what does their presence look like online? How can I find out what kind of company they are, what kind of work they do? What's it like to work there? And if you, all you see is nothing or a couple posts about you know, Hey, look at this project we did that, everybody else can do the same thing. Um, it's. Alright, well I don't really know what I'm dealing with, but if on the flip side you see, know, content about not just the work they do, but how they do the work, what their shop looks like, what their office looks like, what their people look, look like what their culture is, it makes a big impact. And two, people wanna be proud of the work they do. And especially in our industry where it's so hard for us. I remember. For years. Like my wife didn't even understand what I did as a job, as a millwork engineer and trying to explain to my family, well, here's what I do. Oh, so you make cabinets? Well, yes sometimes, but it's a lot more than that. Trying to explain all of that when. It would be so great if the company I work for has content online and I could be constantly sharing posts and be like, Hey, here's a project I did. Hey, yeah, I engineered that. Here's it being built in the shop. Hey, look, look how awesome this is. Oh wow. That's what you do. Okay, now I understand and I get to be proud of the work that I'm doing and I find more value than just a paycheck in what I'm doing. and I think, so many companies are, are under the gun, don't have time, and they don't realize the value of something so simple as putting a little bit of effort into Putting any content Out there, how much of an impact that can make to solving this, this talent crisis.
James Drury:Yeah, and, and I think, you know, especially in today's day and age too with, with ai, it makes that process even easier, right? AI is not gonna go anywhere. Uh, we, we gotta embrace it. But, you know, you mentioned the time it takes to create a post. Just, just throw it into ai, you know, give, give it some context of what you're trying to achieve and it'll create it for you. You know, then you, all you gotta do is share. So it doesn't have to be more difficult than, than it has to be. Obviously, you know, the, the human connection side of that, you know, might be missing with those AI generated posts, but at least it, it, it's a foot in the right direction, right. For anybody who's looking to get started. That's a great place to, to begin. Yeah, so, but, but you're, you're absolutely right. I mean, I do the same thing when I'm, I'm looking, looking up a company, you know, e even business to business, right? I mean, you know, what kind of is, is this, I'm gonna go back to when I was, you know, estimating at Kaler, you know, we'd get a new GC that would submit a bid to us and it's like, okay, well let's see what these guys are up to. If they don't have a website or a social media presence, it's very hard to, you know, vet'em, right? You, you can't. You know, just say, oh yeah, these guys are, you know, they do great work. Let's, let's jump in with these guys. It's like, what are we getting ourselves into, you know? So yeah, being able to, to do that, that research, whether you're, you're looking for a place of employment or looking to do business with another company, I think that that presence is, is a must. Um, you know, uh, another thing, you know, when, when it comes to recruiting younger talent too. I, I think it's very important to, to have a culture that encourages and fosters learning. Right? you know, everybody's gonna make mistakes, right? We all know that. Nothing, nothing's perfect, but your attitude towards those mistakes is what's gonna change, the people around you, right? It's easy to point fingers, oh, so and so messed this up. Or, you know, that was so and so over here that, that didn't do this right? But, you know, to, like, at Master Millwork, for example, when those mistakes do come up, we, we look at'em in depth. Why did this happen? You know, not whose fault was it, but you know, where did the problem start and how do we, how do we fix that moving forward? Right. The only bad mistake is a mistake in which you don't learn from it, right? Um, so that, that, that learning culture and that that culture of being able, it also encourages ownership, right? When, when you make mistakes, I. If it's not so much about pointing fingers, it's very easy to say, you know, yeah, I, I missed a step. I, I'm the one who, who made that mistake. You know, we can talk about it and, and figure out what to do, do next. Right? So much easier to have that kind of a, uh, environment when that culture is being, being created. You know, I, I also, oh, go ahead.
Jacob Edmond:Well, just on that point, I think it's important that, you know, because, if we're in this industry complaining about people not wanting to join our industry and people not having experience, but anytime anybody tries to come in and learn, if we, treat them like crap and, you know, don't help them, don't teach them. If we're the guy in the shop that's like, you don't know anything, what are you doing here? but also, uh, I can't find good help these days. Nobody wants to learn. Nobody wants to do the hard work. That's the problem.
James Drury:Yeah.
Jacob Edmond:We have to be able to invite those people in, give them the Opportunity to learn, understand that. We, we were there one day as well. And, and we have to be willing to invest the time and it takes to teach and learn and make mistakes and grow from that. Um, and it's, it's, we can't be both complaining about nobody wanting to join our industry, but also gatekeeping from anybody wanting, wanting to join our industry.
James Drury:Right. And, and you know, that, that's something that, you know, I've really been adamant about. And that's mentorship, right? I think it is funny how many I how many people hold onto that knowledge as kind of a sense of security, right? Like, oh, I'm, I'm not gonna let them know the tricks of the trade because I don't wanna be out of a job. Well, if we learn to embrace our replacements, it just makes us irreplaceable, right? If we can pass down that knowledge that we have, then. You know, and we're building other people up. Then we've made our job even more secure. We've shown that we can grow that, pool of talent, right.
Jacob Edmond:You are infinitely more valuable if you can replicate yourself by teaching other people. Then if, than you are as just, I'm gonna hold this knowledge and I'm only as valuable as my personal output. And I think people don't realize that like you're actually worth more and add more value by being able to teach other people because you can do that over and over again. I.
James Drury:Yeah. The, the, the more people you have that can do what your, your top guy can do, the the more you're gonna grow, the more success you're gonna have. So, you know, at Master Millwork, one of the things that really impressed me going back to the shop is just how much, or how young the workforce is there. Like, you walk out into the shop and it's, it's very young for, you know, most of the industry that you, you, you know, as you go to visit different shops. I think that that mentorship mentality is a big factor in that. So when we hire, you know, new recruits, you know, especially out in the shop, you know, they're paired up with one of our master craftsmen and they're learning directly from them and getting those skills from the get go, that will help them grow, right? The, the, those critical thinking skills and, just the, the fine, the fine tuned skills that, took them, you know, years or decades to, to learn. You know, one of the, uh, one of my favorite quotes, uh, this was from one of our craftsmen at Kaler, this is when I was out on a bench. And, you know, just everything that he created just looked. Flawless, right? And I'm like, man, you know, how do you make your products just look so good? And he just kinda laughed and chuckled. And he is like, it's not about doing good work. It's about covering up your mistakes. And, and it, there, there is a lot of truth in that, right? Because you are gonna make a mistake, but you can't always just start over. Right. You've gotta find a way to, you know, work around that. And that always just stuck with me. After he said that, I was like, man, you know, it's not about doing it right and doing it perfect. It's, you know, when those mistakes come up, you gotta find a way to blend those in or find a way to, you know, hide'em. So you know, it's not gonna affect that, that final, final product. But you know, if, if they're holding onto that information, what good is that gonna do for our industry? Right.
Jacob Edmond:Absolutely. Well, James, what, uh, what changes or innoVi innovations do you see in the future in our industry over the next five to 10 years that are gonna have an impact?
James Drury:Well, I mean, I already mentioned ai, uh, that's not gonna go anywhere. So that's gonna just help with processes all around, right? With the, uh, creating training content. You know, standards and processes, it just makes all that a lot easier. Machinery and automation is gonna just continue to improve, especially with the aid of ai. Uh, so I think we're, we're gonna see a lot more of that. Um, so with that then, you know what, what I hope to see is more of that mentorship mentality, right? I mean. Everything is gonna progress, you know, almost automatically just because of technology. But what's not going to change unless we make the change, is that that human connection, that that person to person relationship passing down those, those skills and that knowledge that, you know, our older and experienced generation have, that our younger generation does not yet. So that, that's what I hope to see. But again, like I said, it, it's gonna come down to, to us being able to accept that and be willing to pass all that on.
Jacob Edmond:Yeah. Absolutely. Well, awesome James. I appreciate you taking time out to, to speak with us and share with us if people ever interested in finding out more about Master Millwork and the work you guys are doing there or, or you in general, what's the best way they can reach out and find out more?
James Drury:Yeah. Um, I mean, easy way for me, uh, you know, we can get, uh, connected on, on LinkedIn. I know I've been talking, uh, social media here, but, uh, that's, that's really the only social media platform that I, I personally use. LinkedIn is a great way to get connected, uh, with me. To see what we're doing at Master Millwork, uh, you know, go check out our, our website. You know, you, you'll see an example of the projects we're doing. We are growing, we're hoping to, uh, get a shop established here in Texas. So we are really, anxiously and aggressively, you know, searching for those, those big projects that'll help, uh, speed that process up. So hopefully, uh, moving forward, uh, you know, we can, uh, share a little bit of what we're, what we're doing on that front. There, there is a post that I've got, uh, on LinkedIn right now that people can follow along with. And that's where we're trying to get more of a shop immersive experience for our remote workforce. So, you know, dedicated computers and camera feeds for our different, craftsmen and their, their areas. So as soon as they're working on a, a work order, that they need to ask questions. They can jump right on with the engineer and, and, you know, screen share or walk around and show, uh, you know, what, what's going on, on the bench and work through those and create a really tight feedback loop. So we're just in the initial stages of that. So there'll be more posts, uh, you know, coming up, following what that is looking like. But I'm really excited to get that, that part going. So yeah, I mean, that's for me, that's. Really the best way to reach out and get connected.
Jacob Edmond:Awesome. Well, thank you again, James. Always a joy when we get to hang out and chat. And I'm looking forward to everybody hearing your insights on, on, on training, development and seeing the, the work you do in the future there.
James Drury:All right. No, I appreciate the time, Jacob. And um, looking forward to, uh, seeing what, what you continue to do in this industry. I, I appreciate everything that you've done so far and, and the, uh, the visibility and awareness that you've brought to it. So, we all just need to do more of the same.
Jacob Edmond:Absolutely. Awesome. Thank you James.
James Drury:Thanks.
