Verify In Field: The Millwork Podcast

Building Experts: Apprenticeships & Workforce Development with Kelly and Mark

• Yuksel Nunez Araujo • Season 2 • Episode 13

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In this episode of Verify In Field, host Jacob Edmond sits down with Kelly Victor-Burke, co-owner of Burke Architectural Millwork, and Mark Smith, longtime educator and now brand ambassador for Microvellum, to dive deep into a topic shaping the future of our industry: registered apprenticeships.

From the challenges of finding and developing talent to creating a nationally recognized pathway for careers in woodworking and millwork, Kelly and Mark break down how the industry can solve its workforce crisis, one apprentice at a time.

This episode isn’t just about attracting young talent. It’s about building a sustainable future for woodworking by creating formal systems that train, certify, and empower the next generation.

About Our Guests

  • Kelly Victor Burke is a co-owner of Burke Architectural Millwork in Michigan and a passionate workforce advocate. She led the creation of the nation’s first Woodwork Manufacturing Specialist Registered Apprenticeship Program and was appointed by the U.S. Department of Labor as an official Apprenticeship Ambassador in 2022.
  • Mark Smith is a career educator with over 30 years of experience teaching industrial technology and wood programs. A former national director for WoodLINKS USA, Mark is now a brand ambassador for Microvellum, where he continues to advocate for training and apprenticeship pathways in woodworking.

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Kelly Victor Burke:

We're writing this apprenticeship not for today. We're writing this apprenticeship for the next 10 years.

Jacob Edmond:

Welcome back everybody to Verified in Field. I'm excited today. I've actually got two time guests of the podcast today together to talk about registered apprenticeship programs in our industry. So we've got Mark Smith. Mark Smith is joining now in recently in a new role as a brand ambassador for Microvellum and longtime career educator in our field. And I, we've got Kelly Victor Burke, who is co-owner of Burke Architectural Millwork, and also a workforce advocate. Um, and today we're gonna talk about registered apprenticeship programs and the work that you guys are, uh, collaborating on together to create a new one. Uh, thank you for joining me today.

Kelly Victor Burke:

Glad to.

Mark Smith:

Thanks for having us.

Jacob Edmond:

Maybe to get started, um, could you guys give us a little bit of background, maybe Kelly, on the origin of previously what you worked on and have created was the woodwork manufacturing specialist registered apprenticeship program.

Kelly Victor Burke:

Yes, absolutely. So, um, I think we have to go all the way back to like 2017. So, um. When my husband and I opened Burke Architectural Millwork, a previous, the year previous to that in 2016, we said, we wanna be a company that mentors and fosters workforce development. And we said that through it. We wanna offer in-house apprenticeships, which I hear this all the time,

Mark Smith:

Hmm.

Kelly Victor Burke:

is fantastic. In concept. And we in fact did have a young man from our, uh, local high school and the, uh, wood arts program who joined us. The next year in 2017, these lovely, talented women from my local community college came to our shop to talk to us about registered apprenticeships through the Department of Labor. And I always say that my husband's first reaction was, uh, no way. You're not gonna let them in our door because I don't want the government to have anything to do or say about what's going on in our company. So I did let them in and what they told me was that in fact what we were thinking is, is a completely a misconception. They spent multiple times coming back and telling us and educating us about the benefit of Department of Labor registered apprenticeships, which are the gold standard and the piece that really I took away because, as both of you guys know, that we had this young man who was a in-house apprentice, and then we were thinking about, well, what's the difference? And the difference is that when you have a Department of Labor registered apprentice, at the end they get a nationally recognized credential they can take anywhere. They get a journey person credential, but it's portable and it's recognized throughout the United States. So interestingly that the person who was our in-house apprentice, he just faded away. It was like one day he just stopped coming. But through learning about it, they introduced us to a young man named Logan. And he was hanging around there outside of their office and he was like, oh, I hear you talking about Burke Architectural millwork, and how he followed us on social media. And he was like, oh, you're going over there. Will you bring my resume? And so we looked at it and he was fantastic. He was Logan. His aspiration was to take classes at community that he could then transfer to a four year institution and become an engineer. And get an engineering degree. And so these ladies at Schoolcraft Community College who were in charge of the apprenticeship coordination, they said'We're going to get him in a pre-apprenticeship program through the state of Michigan'. And it paid for his schooling, paid for his books, it even paid for his gas to go back and forth. So at the end of nine months, he came to us and he floored us and he said, I love working here so much that I'm not gonna go away to college and get a my degree in engineering, but you have to put me in a registered apprenticeship. And then that's how we discovered there was nothing good enough for him. And in fact, there's not anything good enough for the rest of our wood industry. And so they said, well, gosh, um, you can write one, but it has to be for the whole country.

Jacob Edmond:

Wow. So, and, uh, you know, you actually, uh, you didn't touch on this, but in your previous interview I had, which we'll link below for Kelly's previous interview, where we go more into your experience you were in, in education before starting Burke Architectural Millwork. And so, you know, I know that colors your, your perspective and the way you approach this right, is you've seen how education at large works outside of our industry, and you've brought that experience with you into our industry. So, um, I think if, if you're listening to this, go back and, and listen to Kelly's previous episode, but how did you and Mark begin working together on this?

Kelly Victor Burke:

So over, so we started the process of creating the framework in 2017. And about 2019, I put on social media that I needed help because part of the process, the DOL requires Industry support and support from our industry that is not just in my locality, which is Michigan, that I needed to go across the whole country. And Mark, amazing Mark, he was the one, he was one of several who responded on social media said, I'll help you. And that's how we got, how we met each other. And oh my gosh, he's just such a kindred spirit and this is why we're often now talking and, and working together on things.

Jacob Edmond:

Amazing. And so at this, at that time, Mark, you were still working as an educator, I believe in secondary, right? And teaching wood shop and manufacturing?

Mark Smith:

Yeah it was actually called Industrial Technology program, but we taught with a view towards the wood industry. I used to be the National Director of Wood Links, USA. That was many years ago, and that was another initiative that was trying to foster education and industry working together with the wood industry in mind. So I've taught for about 30 years and I've been in and out of education, working in industry too. I have a lot of workforce development experience. The reason I met Kelly is because I learned early on that there are lots of people that want to help your high school program, but they don't know who you are and they don't know how to help you. So I started using social media a lot. You know, LinkedIn, Instagram, Facebook. I don't never really got into TikTok or Twitter, but through that, that's how Kelly and I found each other, you know, she, as they say, direct messaged me on my Instagram account, told me what she was doing, and would I be interested in helping with this? And of course that's right up my alley. I would love to help with that. And so, you know, long story short, drove up to her area in the Detroit, Michigan area. Livonia. Is that it? Kelly Livonia. Yeah. She's, her company's in Livonia, Michigan. And helped'em with that and, you know, did some other things, uh, throughout the years and, and so that kind of, that's how it started.

Jacob Edmond:

And so that's the, the kind of the nexus of how you guys began working together, how Burke Architectural Millwork and, and Kelly, you spearheaded this initiative to create. What is now the Woodworking Manufacturing Specialist Apprenticeship Program. Can you give us a brief overview today? So, and that was approved in 2020, I think, right?

Kelly Victor Burke:

Yes,

Jacob Edmond:

So, uh, go. Now, five years ago you've got this, this program approved, and so today, can you give us an overview of what is that apprenticeship program that that is already approved?

Kelly Victor Burke:

Yes. So this apprenticeship is a national apprenticeship available to any wood industry company for any new or incumbent employee. And it is a combination that has flexibility for you to customize specifically to your company needs. It is a combination, so it's multi-skilled, and it also is based in stem. So science, technology, engineering, and math. And it is a combination of CAD cam it also includes mechatronics. So if you have a CNC, if you have, uh, even our sander is a great example of mechatronics. Another component is cabinet building and wood processing. Another part is coatings and finishing, and then estimating and project management.

Jacob Edmond:

Okay. And so there are key requirements for any, uh, Department of Labor registered apprenticeship program. Right? And so obviously this one had to fulfill those. Can you talk a little bit about that? What are the requirements that anyone has to have and how this one covers those?

Kelly Victor Burke:

Yes. So all apprenticeships have these following components to it. First of all, you as the business or the industry has to enter this partnership with the DOL. And when I say partnership, the standards and the framework, the competencies have already been written. So basically we're talking about 90%, the only 10% is how you are going to customize this for your company. So that's the part that is engagement. uh, Your apprentice employees wages are required to increase based on a growing on their growing skills over the length of the apprenticeship, which is between three to four years. The DOL does not specify how much you have to give. It can be as little as a penny, but they just wanna make sure that your apprentice starts at a certain dollar amount and then as their wages and their skills grow, rather their wages will increase. Again, the do, do, the Department of Labor does not tell you how much it has to be. That's for you, um, to decide as a company and then all apprenticeships have on the job training and then require technical instruction. Like I said, the last thing, which I believe, and Mark I think you could agree with me on this, is that upon completion, that Apprentice receives that National Recognized Portable Credential, which is the, like people are liking it to an Associate's Degree.

Jacob Edmond:

So, all of this started, you know, you mentioned with, I think it was Logan, was was the, the student who came in, the apprentice that you guys had, and he said, Hey, look, I wanna work here. I wanna work for you guys, but I wanna. You know, I wanna make a career out of this and I want to have an education as a, as a part of this, right? And so that was for you guys was the push was obviously at Burke. You guys needed employees, you guys needed skilled people, um, and you had somebody that was interested and you needed to find a program that didn't exist ultimately to fit the needs of, of getting him the, the knowledge and training right. Um, and so that very much your journey started from an employer's perspective, more or less, right? Um, with obviously experience you had in education. Mark, you spent many years on the, the representing the students, more or less. Right. And the educators, working in secondary and post-secondary. I just went yesterday to National, um, Leadership and Skills Conference where Skills USA, um, you know, they put it on every year and I just saw, just in cabinet making, for example, I think there were 56 students there that were from all over the country representing all 50 plus territories, in secondary and post secondary. And so it, that was amazing to me. One, just to see,'cause I know we have, in our industry, a shortage of talent coming in, and I know in the trades in general has been, you know, a, an issue that's compounding year over year. But to see that many students in, in this, you know, it was at Georgia World Congress, so there was cabinet making, there was carpentry, there was welding, there was everything imaginable. That, from my perspective, it blew me away that there were that many people learning there. Many, many students interested in this. So can you speak a little bit, Mark, from your perspective, from the student side, from the people that are coming up, young people coming up, getting education, there's an interest obviously in making a career. There's an interest in people that don't want to go the now what is now the traditional route of a four year university. But they wanna make a career and they wanna work with their hands. What are we missing as an industry? You know?'cause there's other apprenticeship programs in other industries that have successful pathways for people. What, what, from your perspective do you think we've been missing all these years to make that gap, cover that gap between the students, between those being educated in our industry?

Mark Smith:

Well, uh, there's a few things just we'll back up here and give you just a brief history. I'm sure you both are aware of this, but it never hurts to state it'cause you never know who's listening. But I started high school in 1979, and I was kind of, my generation, maybe the one before me was at the beginning of this big push for everyone going to college. And I can remember hanging in my high school counselor's office was that poster. You know, Mike has made a big deal out of, you know work smarter, not harder. And I always tell my students, if anyone tells you, you don't have to work hard, they're lying to you. You do need to work smart, but you'll also have to work hard. But you know, on one side of the poster was the guy that. Uh, was in his dirty overalls and of course they were de glamorizing working with your hands. And then on the other side is the young man. Of course there was only men on this poster'cause this poster came out, you know, 40/50 years ago. And when, you know, not as many women were, working, definitely not in the trades. And this other young man was well groomed, well dressed, had a clipboard. And of course this college shall remain nameless, but it was a college that put that poster out. Now, of course, we know why they put the poster out because they want more, uh, people in seats. And so, and there's nothing wrong with an educated populace. My gosh. The founding fathers knew it was very important to have a educated populace, and therefore they set aside our land grants. So we have, you know, institutions like the University of Illinois, the University of Michigan, and we can go on and on. But not everyone is cut out for college and not everyone wants to go to college. But the unspoken rule when I was in high school was, if you're not going to college, what's wrong with you? You know, no one said that to me, but we can all read the room,

Jacob Edmond:

Yeah.

Mark Smith:

Right? We all know the unwritten rules of how we abide in society. You know, there's a famous book, I Learned everything I Needed to Know in Kindergarten. So for the last 40 years, uh, not only has that been the unwritten rule. High schools have been upping their graduation requirements to meet college entrance requirements. So that is a double-edged sword. So now, yes, kids are getting more classes that they're making them smarter. You know, well, lemme say this, they're making them more educated if they're applying themselves, but it also means they have less time to take the courses that are actually going to prepare them for the future they're made for. So, you know, when I was in high school I had to have 50 credit hours and I was in the industrial tech shop, the wood shop four hours a day my senior year,'cause I had time. But today kids don't have near that time. They have anywhere from 20 to 25 credit hours they have to earn. So they have less and less time. And the second thing that happened was schools started closing their CTE programs left and right. There used to be probably in the United States alone. Oh gosh. In Illinois alone, there's 5,000 high schools. In Illinois alone, and they all had metal shop, wood shop, you know what we used to call home ec and all these things. So as they started closing these programs, students didn't even know about them. Let alone get to take them. And so then the third thing that happened, because of all this, we gotta go way back now to the 18 hundreds where they passed the child labor laws. Because let's face it, it's not a good idea to have a 10-year-old working in industrial loom, which we all agree. And that model worked just fine because students would then, in the formal education system, they would get exposure to and training in hands-on careers. And so with that child labor law in place and then with them starting to close programs across the United States for the last 40 years, these programs have been decimated. Now they are coming back, for 40 years they were decimated. So now can't get exposure in high school and you can't work at a place you wanna work like a cabinet shop unless you're 18. Unless you're sweeping the floor. And so all these things have cumulatively had a devastating effect on careers that people work with their hands. And so we are now at the place where all the baby boomers are retiring we have no one to take their place. Now, we've known about this for 40 years. We knew it was coming, like most humans, we don't do something till we have to. And so that is really what has led us to this place where we have hundreds of thousands of jobs going unfilled and no one even really knowing about the jobs. And so in my job as a high school teacher, I found there were two gatekeepers. Two people that will greatly influence what my students will be allowed to do. One was the high school counselor. High school counselors are just like everyone else. They grow up in a home. They either go out and get a job, but high school counselors have to go to college then they get a job. And the only experience they have with the things that they're counseling the students on are the things they know about. You know, they have institutional knowledge from their home because their dad was a policeman and their mom was a nurse or whatever, you know? And the second is the parent. Parents can't counsel their own children about things they don't know. And so I spent all of my time educating parents, educating high school counselors. That's what I did. Uh, because they are the gatekeepers. They are the people that open and close doors for these students'cause they are minors. But I did find out something very interesting as I taught long enough, that I would have many students that would be discouraged from going into our field, but as they got old enough to make their own decisions, they start gravitating back. Because they love it. They enjoy working with their hands, they enjoy building, they enjoy installing. And I hope that answered your question.

Jacob Edmond:

No. Absolutely,'cause I think that that's really important, you know?'cause, uh. I, particularly young people who are listening, I know that those, you know, our age and and older have a lot of that context. But what you just outlined for us very quickly obviously is not something that's taught in schools as a history that I think has a lot of context that unless you're going down the path you guys have where you've had to try to figure out how to solve this. Most people don't think of or realize. We're talking about a, a, a, you know, a problem that is many, many decades in the making and it doesn't get undone overnight. Um, and, and also as you mentioned, this isn't something that is black and white. You know, there is still a need for people to go get university educations for other career paths, but we also need people that go into this, and we need to have also people just to be educated about what options exist to begin with, period. And I think that's what was so interesting to me. You know, as I walked through this, the skills competition, as I talked to you guys about this apprenticeship program is even those of us in the industry don't even realize all the initiatives and things that are available. You know, I have, I have kids, I have a daughter that's in middle school and pretty soon, you know, before long as she's gonna meet in high school and looking at what does she want to do and it. Always as parents, you know, you want to open them up to what opportunities exist. But as you said, we only know about what we have experienced in largely. All right, so we've given some context about how, um, we got to where we're at. You guys have already, created this Woodworking manufacturing Specialist Apprenticeship Program now, uh, going on five years ago. And, but that isn't really solving the whole problem, you know,'cause. Us in the millwork field. Right. What that manufacturing specialist program you outlined gives them some experience with CAD cam, with, with mechatronics, with, you know, the manufacturing process, some estimating and project management. But, uh, there, there's a void there. There's more to what we do as millwork. And so I assume that's where this next new registered apprenticeship program comes in that you guys are creating. Can you talk a little bit about this new Woodworking Installation Specialist and you know, particularly. What? What was the impetus? How did you come to realize, hey, we needed another one?

Mark Smith:

So, I got a call from a company on the East coast and they wanted to set up an apprenticeship, and they learned about me through a presentation that Kelly made, and I think it was at a closets and storage conference maybe, I'm not sure. Uh, so in the process of the beginning process of helping them set that up, of course they had many misconceptions, just like Kelly's been talking about. And they were initially talking about, well, I guess we looked through the Department of Labor stuff and all they had was, uh, you know, for carpenters, can we set that up? And I said, yes, we can. But if you look at the, all the different carpenter apprenticeships, there are some similarities, but they're gonna ask you to do things that you are never going to do as a wood manufacturing specialist. And there's many things they don't cover, so it's not really a good fit unless you have carpenters in house and you build houses and whatever, you know? And they said, no, no, we're a wood, you know, manufacturing company. And I said, well, then you really need to look at the Department of Labor's wood manufacturing, uh, uh, specialist. And so we talked about that a little bit. And then the other thing that came up was, well, we also have in-house installers. Do we have an apprenticeship for them? And I said, I don't think we do. So we got a hold of Nicole Fields at the New Jersey Department of Labor,'cause this company was in New Jersey and we said, do we have a installer's, you know, apprenticeship for the wood industry listed with the federal government? And she goes, I don't think we do. She looked and got back to me and said, we don't. She goes, you need to create one. So I immediately called Kelly,

Jacob Edmond:

Hmm.

Mark Smith:

and that's, that's how it started.

Jacob Edmond:

So, you know, something that I'm not educated on that I'm curious about. You know, I know there are certain shops in our industry that have unions. Right? And I know there's some that have both shop unions and install unions or one or the other. Do any of those unions use any of the Department of Labor apprenticeship programs, or do they have, is, do they function separately from that?

Kelly Victor Burke:

So they can.

Jacob Edmond:

Mm-hmm.

Kelly Victor Burke:

The answer is there is such a breadth of what's happening in our industry. So there are obviously union shops that are union both for fabrication, manufacturing, and then for installation. Um. Which again we understand through Nicole, is that there isn't a super specific DOL register apprenticeship for installation.

Jacob Edmond:

Yeah.

Kelly Victor Burke:

Then there on the other side, what Mark and I and the writing committee that was formed for this new apprenticeship we're working on is that there's probably even more across the country shops like my company, which is where we are, uh, small, uh, where we are non-union. And so we have that group. Then we have even within that group, these, and, and we identified large numbers of them belonging to the Cabinet Makers Association, the Association of Closet and Storage Professionals, and also AWI, and in the cohort of those three associations, we also find that for many of these small to medium size wood industry companies, that they are in two subcategories. There are those that are like my shop and like, uh, for example my dear friend Lois Snyder, owner of Perriwinklers in Florida, where the same people are fabricating and installing. So you have to be both a fabricator and an installer. Then there are some of us that are, those that have a separate group or team of fabricators, then their own team that are installers. And so we said, okay, for this new apprenticeship, we want to really focus on the both of the groups that are the small to medium. You, you do not necessarily have to be union, but we're really answering what we think of as the majority of wood industry companies across our country where they are not associated with a particular union. So that this apprenticeship for installation would work in either case, if you are somebody like my team or Lois's team where fabricators and they are the same people that install, or if you have separate teams.

Jacob Edmond:

Okay.

Kelly Victor Burke:

Right Mark??

Mark Smith:

Yeah.

Jacob Edmond:

And so you guys have now formed a, a working committee to develop this new apprenticeship program, right?

Mark Smith:

We have.

Jacob Edmond:

Can you tell us a little bit about that, that committee and, and kind of what are the next steps for this?

Mark Smith:

Yes, of course. You know, Kelly and I, you know. Kelly of course is the leader. She has the most knowledge and most experience and which is why I called her. And of course I'm on it too. And, uh, not only have I been an educator like Kelly, I've also worked in the wood industry just like Kelly is now. uh, then we also have Adria Salvato. She used to be the education leader there at the A WFS, which is coming up next month, she now works for the Architectural Woodwork Institute, the AWI. So her and Saul Martin, who also works at the AWI, we are the four people that are on this writing committee. And the old adage that matters, who you know, and of course we call and talk to people that we know. That we know have the ability, the skills, the network, the resource, whatever. And so, you know, that's why us four, oh, we also have Brent Wheel too. Kelly, why don't you talk about Brent a little bit.

Kelly Victor Burke:

Yeah. So, um, you can imagine that, that dealing with, uh, the Department of Labor and getting documents ready so that they can review it and approve it takes like a special, uh, you know. Workforce. So there are DOL intermediaries. So your state DOL office can help you uh, adopt a registered apprenticeship. The federal DOL office can also help you, but then the, there are these, uh, groups that are called DOL intermediaries. They actually are subcontracted out. Their, uh, mission is to help businesses create and to enroll in registered apprenticeships. It's all free of charge and one, so when we were writing the Woodwork Manufacturing Specialist Apprenticeship, our DOL intermediary was the Urban Institute. This time we are using Jobs for the Future and JFF and that is, Brent Wheel, uh, is an employee of Jobs for the Future. And he is our intermediary because of the work he did with, um, the NKNB and getting standards for that association. I think I said that association right Mark, didn't I?

Mark Smith:

I think so.

Kelly Victor Burke:

So, um, you know, so again, it's like he's our, uh, wood, uh, manufacturing person now. And so he's on that committee and so it is actually JFF that's gonna take all the paperwork, put the bow on it, and send it off to, uh, the Department of Labor when we're done.

Jacob Edmond:

Okay, awesome. And so this, you know, you already have an established apprentice apprenticeship for the manufacturing specialist. So, you know, is this one, are you able to adapt from that and use a lot of that uh, towards this one? Or are you having to start completely from scratch? How does, how does that work and what does that look like?

Kelly Victor Burke:

We were so happy we found out that the Woodwork Manufacturing Specialist Apprenticeship, its framework is so well written a national standard for our industry, and that there is flexibility, we can change it up to 25%. And it means that when we submit it that there is a greater likelihood that the DOL will approve it as opposed to starting over. So I think Mark and I, and the rest of us on the writing group, we were like, had this big sigh of relief. Like, okay, at least we don't have to recreate the wheel.

Jacob Edmond:

Okay, so you're able to basically take what you had for the manufacturing specialist. Tweak you up to 25% of it to make it catered towards installation. And, you know, so, but there is a, a generalized framework, I think is what, what you guys call it. Right. Can you talk a little bit about, you know, why, what makes it generalized and why is that beneficial?

Mark Smith:

So. Like Kelly said you know, anytime you submit something to the government, they want it a certain way. Just like anytime you do work for a customer, they want it a certain way, you know? And so like Kelly mentioned in the previous apprenticeship, they have gone through all the pains of getting it just right. And so by using that original framework, we can now modify it and change it as we need to to include the installation portion. And so, using that as our template. Um, just like in AutoCAD you have a template, we have a template And, uh, you know, I, I think Kelly said it took three years to do the first one. My gosh, we're gonna have this one done in less than a year,

Kelly Victor Burke:

Mm-hmm.

Mark Smith:

maybe, maybe six months.

Kelly Victor Burke:

And it has to be general because the way that it works at my company is different from the way that it works for your company in South Dakota, in Utah, in California, in Texas. Only you know what's best for your company. So when you look at, uh, and as Mark is going to, um, be speaking about how we're looking for reviewers of our initial draft, of our work processes, these are so general. Like, does your employee, does your apprentice employee communicate well with their superiors? Does the apprentice employee observe basic, uh, safety standards? So we're getting some pushback like, hey, why is it so general? Or, you know, but at my shop they have to do X, Y, and Z. The answer is, at your shop they can do X, Y, and Z, but you just have to have this framework of generality which you know, that is the foundation. What you do with it after that is up to you.

Jacob Edmond:

So the, the, the framework, you know, lends itself and is flexible and adaptable for, for companies.'Cause, you know, people I would imagine might look at the framework, might look at the apprenticeship, um, outline and say, well, what if this part doesn't apply to us. Right? Um, you know, so can you talk a little bit about like the nuts and bolts, if a company's saying, Hey, I wanna, for example, the existing already approved woodworking manufacturing specialist. Right? They're gonna take that framework and then say, how are we going to implement this? How are we going to, for example, teach certain, um, required technical, uh, competencies that might be different than what you guys did with Logan, but they're still gonna fulfill the requirements, right?

Kelly Victor Burke:

Right. So you have, so if you are a shop that doesn't have a CNC, so back in 2020, looking at the data for the CMA members that. Uh, the difference between 2020 and where we are in 2025 is the number of, of, member shops that don't have a CNC has decreased tremendously. But at first, if you were one of these shops that didn't have a CNC, that was one of the components, well, you would just kick that right out and you didn't necessarily have it. Or if you did not want your apprentice to learn estimating or project management. Then you could take that out as well. That's what is the benefit of the customization. Same way when we look at how we have incorporated the installation practices. So how we put together these like core work processes is talking with our master installers. And to listen to what they say. This is how, you know, and even for Mark when he's in the classroom and doing an actual project, how do you teach? What are the fundamentals of how you start someone on their journey to be an installer? That's the essence of what we put into the work process. And again, it's this foundation that we, I think we should be really proud, Mark, that our writing committee was able to discern these very basic elements of what these, um, job processes are, installation process.

Mark Smith:

something that Kelly said there when, when she's talking about, you know, you can modify up to 25% and there's a chance people will be sitting in the audience listening and go, well. Well that means you could have an apprentice over here that knows this, an apprentice over here that doesn't. That's true. And that's true of all apprenticeships. All apprenticeships have the ability to change 25%. And let's think about what that's gonna look like in practicality. So let's say you have an apprentice that did everything except for the CNC. That means they come in to work for you and you have a CNC. That means they have very little to learn. Very little. You know, I remember when I first learned how to use my first CNC back in the year 2000, it was intimidating, you know, because I had to learn the soft software to drive it. And I also learned how to code by hand. And you know, this is back in the year 2000. But that's the only thing I had to learn as a shop teacher because I knew how to do all these other tools. And so it was easily done, you know? And so I, I just wanna make sure we touched on that, because some people have a tendency to go, well, but he doesn't know how. Yeah. But they can pick it up pretty quick because that's just one thing. It's not like they don't know anything.

Jacob Edmond:

So they, it is establishing that they have a strong foundation in this trade and the, the makeup of that foundation could be, you know, more towards one or the other competency within this apprenticeship, but you know that they have a strong foundation that can be built on.

Mark Smith:

Yep.

Jacob Edmond:

There's also, you guys are incorporating AI into this, this new one. Right? You know, can you talk about,'cause you talked about how much stuff's changed just even from 2020 when you wrote the last one, and the makeup of the industry is changing with technology. Can you talk about the importance of including AI and how that came about?

Kelly Victor Burke:

Uh, absolutely. So in April of this year, president Trump signed two executive orders and, first executive order called for apprenticeships in AI occupations. Specifically, the executive order is to promote AI literacy and proficiency among Americans through education and workforce development efforts. As well, this executive order directs the Secretary of Labor to establish goals for establishing registered apprenticeship programs, increasing and using discretionary funds from the national science to reach these goals. So Mark and I as educators, we're like, well, wait a minute. You mean that national science funding, which would normally in our world be going to disciplines like research in uh, chemistry and biology and in computer science and cancer research? This executive order directs the Secretary of Labor to again use discretionary funds coming from this as well. This is like a new avenue and you know, our thinking is, Hey, why is it that all tech bros are gonna get the seat at the table and get this money? What about us? Because the amount of Ai, uh, that is being used by my company, it is profound. I mean, it is amazing just in this last year what we're using AI for and I'm reading, in our industry trade magazines and on woodworking network. I'm seeing ads for bandsaws that are AI driven. And you know, this is, this is why when we've gotten, we've read feedback from reviewers and they don't know what Mark and I in the writing committee knows about this, about this executive order by President Trump and that understanding that we would be losing a seat at the table to be a player in this. And we don't wanna sit on the sidelines anymore. I mean, that's just, you know, I just, frankly, I won't have it. I mean, I think, you know, and I'm so glad that I'm around so many like-minded people, like you, two gentlemen here, where it's like, listen, we need to have a seat at the table. And by incorporating AI into this apprenticeship through our work process. We're saying that it is adaptable to emerging technologies with future forward skills, and we're writing this apprenticeship not for today. We're writing this apprenticeship for the next 10 years.

Jacob Edmond:

So I, yeah, I think that one. I think that's great. And so essentially this is, you know, important because one, it's taking advantage of, you know, access to, to funding, which both you guys know in education is always the the struggle, right? Is how do we get funding to do what we ultimately know we need to do? Um, but another thing is I think those who are listening or maybe see that and say, AI, well what are you gonna teach them? Chat GPT. And I think understanding that. AI is a much broader umbrella that frankly, even before chat, GPT already is within our industry. You know,'cause under AI umbrella is machine learning. And you know, the software that we use to, from the companies like Style and SEM and all these companies that it, it's already built into what. The, the guys that are having to learn mechatronics and CNC programming and those types of things are having to deal with. Um, so absolutely, I think it's amazing that we're, we're, we're putting that step forward as a part of the foundation that again, is only gonna grow, in importance and, and avenues for us. And okay, so that's being incorporated in this and then, so. This ultimately is open or is going to be open for review for those that are listening, that are one, wanting to support or, um, participate and how can they, they help with this. Can you talk a little bit about, um, what the next steps are for getting this apprenticeship written, um, submitted and approved and, and how people maybe could contribute?

Mark Smith:

Sure. One of the things we've done is, uh, because Kelly and I have come from education and, uh, myself the most recently from education. We have created a Google form. So if you don't know what that is, Google has all kinds of special tools, not just email can be used to help streamline and create efficiencies in your workload. And so when I was a teacher, uh, every Friday, my students would be in the classroom, they'd be doing contextual math quizzes. They'd be doing reading for technical information and things like that. They'd be, learning how to send emails. They'd be working on their e portfolios and they'd have to do videos of themselves talking and. So all of this was facilitated through Google Forms, and what that is, is, uh, if you've ever taken an online survey or you've answered questions online, it's kind of like that. So, uh, a Google form is stored, uh, you know, in someone's Google Drive and we're storing it on Kelly's Google Drive, and we're then sending out a link. And so with the link, anyone can access this form and answer these questions for us. So it's a very easy way you can reach nationally, internationally, with this form. And so you can, you know, and she was at a presentation, where was that, Florida Kelly?

Kelly Victor Burke:

Yes.

Mark Smith:

Yeah. And in the presentation at the end, she had a QR code that you could then hold your phone up to, and that would take you to the form as well. And then, uh, Kelly created a video, uh, and we posted that on LinkedIn and it below it had, you know. I think the QR code and then I did one too and I just put the link, uh, to a document as well as the form to fill out. And so, man, today it's so easy. Can you imagine what it would've been like 30 years ago getting national cooperation and be lots and lots of phone calls, you'd be mailing things in the mail. Where today it's just get your smartphone out and take the survey. It's that easy and uh, you know, we can supply you with that link as well and stuff like that. So it's fantastic. And of course, it's self grading.

Kelly Victor Burke:

Yes.

Mark Smith:

It collates all the answers from them for you and exports it out to a spreadsheet. So it's,

Kelly Victor Burke:

Yeah,

Mark Smith:

know, it's kind of like using ai, you know, it's, it's very easy, you know.

Kelly Victor Burke:

So it takes five minutes. It ta well, actually, it takes more than 15 minutes of time if you're a slow reader. So when you click on the link, you're gonna see me and I'm gonna talk about, Hey, thank you for clicking on it. Your, your reviewing is really important to us. And then when you go to the next page, then there is a link to some background where the background, it talks about who's on the writing committee, what is the Woodwork Manufacturing Specialist Apprenticeship, how do you get more information on it? This is the foundation for the framework for this new Woodwork Installation Specialist Apprenticeship. gives just some Background about, you know, how it doesn't cost employers any money to adopt a registered apprenticeship. And then this is the work process. And the work process. There are how many work process.

Mark Smith:

There's 10 maybe.

Kelly Victor Burke:

So lesson 10, and each one, one could have like, and it just says like their, the DOL wants to make sure that safety is really important. So, it's basically Osha, like, you know, that you're, you're practicing, you know, it's in, the word demonstrates good safety, for example, right? And it says, is it core or is it optional? So those are the, there's really only one major difference for the work process, for the instalation apprenticeship versus the woodwork manufacturing specialist. And that is that there's AI written into it, that you have to learn it and demonstrate ability to utilize it as appropriate in our industry for installation. Then the other one is there's a whole work process that is specifically those foundations for installation. And we're asking people to say, is it applicable does it need revision. And then there's a place for you to write comments. So if you read something and you say, I disagree because of X, Y, and Z, or I agree. Um, you know, we found that this is helpful, then there's a place for people to give, not only rate each of the work processes, but then to also give feedback and then. Do you wanna be recognized as an official reviewer? We would hope if you took the time to review this, that you will get some recognition because you really are helping us. We have been talking to hundreds and hundreds of people and to date, Mark, how many, um, have we had.

Mark Smith:

I think we got about 14 responders. You know what's, what I find interesting is between,'cause I'm monitoring the posts,'cause I'm putting them up, you know, between Kelly and I's posts. You know, we've got a couple thousand people that have looked at it, we only have about. 14 that have actually filled it out and you know, we kind of understand that it's one thing to look at something, it's another go on it and go, okay, I'll do it. You know, but we need, you know, more people to respond.

Kelly Victor Burke:

Mm-hmm.

Jacob Edmond:

So that's a link that I'm assuming, you know, we could either share with the show notes or where is it that people access that. We can provide that link. So that'll be in our show notes.

Mark Smith:

Yep.

Jacob Edmond:

Um, so if you wanna be an acknowledged reviewer to help support this, we'll be able to go to that link and you can help fill out that form. And then this is scheduled to be due, completed by, when is it?

Kelly Victor Burke:

The end of July.

Jacob Edmond:

Okay? We

Kelly Victor Burke:

are going out to a AWFS. And so if your listeners and I know there are many. We look forward to seeing you. We actually are presenting, Mark and I, our dance card is very full and some people of the younger generations have no idea what I'm talking about with a dance card. Not that old, but I'm talking about like the 19 early 19 hundreds when you would go to society balls and if you wanted to dance with a woman, she had a card and you had to like fill your name on that card and then she would dance with you. So our dance cards Mark, are very full. Mark and I are going to be talking at many different, doing many different presentations and panels. If you look at the agenda, you'll see that when we are going to be talking, we are going to be doing a presentation on the on workforce development and moving the next generation forward. So we will actually be together too on a presentation.

Jacob Edmond:

Awesome. Okay. And, so we talked about how people can get involved and they can contribute. What about, if people are interested, you know, in just finding out more about the existing apprenticeships or they want to put this into practice in their company, what recommendations or advice do you have or resources for for people interested in these apprenticeships?

Kelly Victor Burke:

So the Department of Labor appointed me as a official apprenticeship ambassador in 2022. I'm running with that. I have been, you can contact me. I just, uh, have been working with a company here in Michigan and I'm available. They're like, gosh, I can't believe you're so accessible. And it's like, I love it. I'm passionate and let me help you and I can give you insight and connected them with appropriate people. If you're a company in hawaii, I would love you to fly me out and I can do this in person. Puerto Rico is also another good place for me. I see it and so like, you know, just reach out. I'm kelly@burkemillwork.com and you could also can contact your department or your state DOL office. You can contact the Federal Department of Labor Office of Apprenticeship and then you could also contact the Jobs for the Future. You can contact Urban Institute. There's a lot of assistance that is out there. Your local workforce development agency, your community college, ask for the apprenticeship coordinator and they will set you up.

Jacob Edmond:

Awesome. And I know you have a lot of these resources aggregated on the Burke Millwork Website website. And we'll, link that in our show notes as well, where, Kelly's done a great job of putting all this together in in one easy to access place. So your email and your, your website we'll put on there. So yeah. Anything else you'd like to share or tell our listeners who, about these apprenticeships, how they can get involved and get going? I appreciate everything you've shared so far. Is there anything else you wanna leave with closing remarks?

Mark Smith:

Well, we're very excited about this new apprenticeship and we would sure love to have as many people involved that wanna be involved. You know, it'd be kind of neat to be listed as an official reviewer. You are participating in something. You know, we're not the only ones in the world who are wanting to help workforce development for the wood industry. Lots of people are doing things, lots of associations are doing things, but it's nice to be part of something.

Jacob Edmond:

Yes, absolutely. Well, I, I am continually impressed by the work you guys do and you both, your leadership in our industry and helping develop the next generation.'Cause this stuff doesn't happen easily and doesn't happen without leadership like you guys. So thank you for the work you guys are both doing. For anybody who's listening, I encourage you to go participate in the survey, participate in supporting this. If nothing else, share this episode so more can hear about these apprenticeship programs and how it can make an impact on our industry. Kelly and Mark, thank you both for coming on and sharing with the work you guys are doing.

Kelly Victor Burke:

Thank you. We're so happy that you would allow us this opportunity to speak with you and your listeners.

Mark Smith:

Yeah. Thank you very much.

Jacob Edmond:

Awesome. Thank you guys.

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