Solo Sessions with Jacob: Training and Mentorship in Millwork

In this solo episode of Verify In Field, host Jacob Edmond steps out from behind the interview desk to tackle one of the most urgent problems in the millwork and construction industry, not the shortage of talent, but the shortage of training and mentorship. 

Drawing from his own unconventional path, from architecture school to engineering without prior cabinet-building experience, Jacob shares what it takes to create a true talent pipeline. This episode is a powerful call to action for millwork leaders, project managers, and shop owners who keep asking, “Where do I find good people?” but haven’t asked, “How am I helping create them?” 

If your shop is struggling with turnover, skill gaps, or a lack of promotable team members, this is required listening. 

Where to Learn More 

• Connect with Jacob in LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jacobedmond/
• Read the DuckWorks Blog: https://duckworksmw.com/blog/

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Transcript

Jacob Edmond: 0:00

I think the biggest problem that we have in our industry is not a lack of talent, but it's a lack of training and mentorship. People that are willing to put in the time to develop people. Hey everybody. Welcome back to Verify in Field today i'm doing another solo session, haven't done one of these in a while, so no guest today. But I wanted to come on here and talk about how the millwork industry is desperate for talent, but starving for mentors. And share with you guys a little bit about my journey and just ultimately my thoughts on mentoring and training in our industry. As if you've been in millwork for any period of time, you know that we are collectively starving for talent for young people coming into this industry and. Pretty much any company you talk to or if you yourself are listening as an owner or a leader, you're probably feeling this pain of struggling to find skilled or trained talent. And I think that

jacob-edmond_1_10-06-2025_115030: 1:02

um,

Jacob Edmond: 1:03

if you dig into that, really it's a little bit more. Less that we are struggling to find talent, but more the skilled and trained part. And I think that really if you go around and think about it, how many of us have a training program or how much time are we spending dedicating to training people in their specific roles? And part of this, I think goes to how our industry has developed over time. And it's just that generally everybody starts on the shop floor and almost everybody has a little bit of that story of started out sweeping, being a helper, maybe catching boards or assembling and eventually you become an operator and even custom builder. But that takes years and time of experience and in general, the training. An education process looks like that, of doing. And so it really just seems put putting in the time. But that doesn't exactly translate to way our business looks like today in that we have a lot more roles than just shop roles. So if you're, looking for engineers or drafters or project managers or estimators. Very few people are thinking five years down the road, 10 years down the road and saying I'm, I know I'm gonna need an estimator in five years, so I better hire somebody that's entry level on the shop today. And give them a five year plan and know that, in two years they need to be running the saws and cncs and becoming a custom builder. And in four years they need to be moving into the shop and learning project management and engineering and estimating to then have an estimator. Like I can't tell you the name of a single company that's really doing that. It does happen, but not in really a concerted, intentional way. And outside of that, even once you do get somebody in those roles, maybe you do find an entry level drafter or a project manager. How many people, how many companies as a part of their culture are dedicating a specific amount of time or a concerted, impactful amount of time to teaching them, to training, to mentoring. And

jacob-edmond_1_10-06-2025_115030: 3:08

so,

Jacob Edmond: 3:08

ultimately that's really, I think the problem is that there is no funnel. Established dedicated funnel for how do we take raw talent, people that are willing to put in the time, that are young, that are moldable, trainable, eager to learn and give them a path, and are we putting in the time and resources and effort to say, Hey, in two to five years this person can come out as an experienced and skilled person. That's really what I see as the problem. It's not a sexy process to get there. And it's not something that, looks as easy to measure. Hey, how much time or money are we putting into this? And what are we getting out of it? You can. And so I think it's a lot easier to go hire a recruiter to go, recruit people from that already have experience from your competitors, from somewhere else in the country, than it is to. Take the long path. And I'll, to be fair, you know, my my experience in this industry is a little bit unique as well. I went to school for architecture. I worked construction and things in, in high school and in college. And my first job in millwork proper was after I graduated from architecture school. I got a job as a drafter for a door company, a millwork shop that was making morrison tendons dial and rail door units. Impact rated. They were, the ones that we tested the shooting two by fours at to survive hurricane impact and design pressure ratings. And the only reason I got that job is because they needed somebody that could do the shop drawings. And when I wasn't doing the shop drawings, I was learning how to build the doors. And so I spent two years there. I eventually learned how to do everything. I was towards the end, the guy, making the elliptical and radius custom units and stuff. But I had never built a cabinet. I had never, done what, what we do in millwork and what most of us, do, which is cabinetry and die walls, and reception desks and wall panels. I never did any of that. I did doors and windows and then I got my first job from there as an engineer. At a proper millwork shop. I never really had that shop experience. I had a lot of translatable. I knew about woodworking, I knew about millwork. I knew how to, take from roughs on mahogany and poplar and maple and how to make veneers and styles and rails and Morrison tendon and all that type of stuff, and run a table saw on a planer and a joiner. I never operated a CNC. I never. Um, Operated a beam saw. I never, made proper cabinetry, never dowelled anything. So when I started engineering and got introduced to Microvellum and had to, figure out cabinets I, I had to ask a lot of questions. I had to go on the shop floor and say, how does this work? I had to go to my, colleagues and ask them, how do you guys draw cabinets? I had to learn everything from scratch without firsthand experience. And that's frankly usually frowned upon in this industry. If you're trying to be an engineer and you don't have shop experience, building the things you're designing and install experience, installing the things you're designing you're kind of up shit creek, without a paddle trying to figure this out. Most of the companies in this industry don't have a path for that. But I went out to the job sites. I spent time, helping, I fixed my own mistakes. I remember a time where I had a whole job of doors that were screwed up and I went out and re mortis them and, and made the corrections myself in the field. And I think that that's, you know, that type of person you can recruit for, which is somebody that's humble, that is moldable, that is willing to listen. I took a ton of tongue lashing and a lot of heat going out in the shop, asking dumb questions, making dumb mistakes. And every time I had a work order or a job to go through the shop, every day I would walk the shop and see where it's at. Say, Hey, what can I do better? Hey, did this go well? And, that's rare. I can't tell you how many other engineers I've worked with or have managed or worked for that are not able to do that. It is, if you can find somebody that's moldable, that is eager to learn and that is willing to step outside of their ego and is willing to put in the time and walk the shop floor every day and see, hey, what are these guys struggling with? You can teach them, but. You need to be, there needs to be somebody that's willing to mentor them, and I think that's the part that we're missing. I was very fortunate that through my career I always had somebody that was willing to listen to my questions, willing to show me how to do things, willing to impart knowledge on me, willing to, mentor me. And it wasn't a formal relationship, and I didn't have dedicated training. Nobody ever sat down and showed me Microvellum, but. I was on those forums every single day, every single bit of research, every single resource that was available to me. Going back to Microvellum six, seven, I was the most active person on those forums, and I was on there trying to help solve other people's problems and people would post problems, Hey, how do you do this? I didn't know. And if somebody else posted how to do it, I would try to replicate. So I learned from it, and if I could solve the problem for them, I was learning from doing that. And that was what I had to do in the void of having, proper instruction or an education process for this. And once I first got to the point where I was starting to be charged with managing a team of engineers, um. I did every thing in my power to give my people those opportunities as well. I would encourage them, walk the shop floor. Hey, let's go walk out here. I know your project's out at the CNC or your project's out at assembly. Let's go see what those guys have to say. And every engineer hated that, they're like, oh, I don't want to go. Talk to those guys, they're gonna, they're going to point out everything that's wrong and they just need to build it. Or when there was a problem or even a recommendation from the shop of, Hey could you do it this way? Instead of that way, it's oh gosh, they gotta constantly change things and. Hey, our job as engineers, my goal as an engineer was always one, I wanna be the guy that when the shop sees my initials on the, the work order or the drawings that they say, oh, thank God. Or they're asking for me, Hey, this custom thing's coming up. I want Jacob to be the engineer. And I was always encouraging my, my engineers to be the same. Look, you don't want people to roll their eyes when they see your initials on the release. So what do you need to do to get there? And it really doesn't matter if we do it my way or the assemble the custom builder's way. If they're gonna change my way, I'd rather design it their way. And so if I know who's gonna build it, or I would go ask the foreman, Hey, who do you think's gonna be building this? Okay, lemme go talk to them before I finish engineering it, before I release it. All of that stuff takes time. And if you are in a company where you're struggling and saying, man, we can't find good people, we can't find. People just don't know this. Think back and reflect on how you got to where you're at. How did you learn? How did you gain experience? Because that's what it is, is everybody needs experience. But experience takes time and experience takes making mistakes and experience takes trial and error and experience takes correction and experience takes money and time and costs and that's a lot harder. Than just go in and hiring somebody. But I think we had, we don't really are honest with ourself and how hard it is to one, not have people and to complain about it. And to go onboard somebody that's from a completely different shop that doesn't know how we do things and they're, at any given situation, trying to bring how they do things to you instead of adopting how you do things. And so. like I said, it's not sexy, it's not fun, it can be fun, but it's not easy. You gotta put in the work. And what I've learned, one is so many business opportunities for success, as a business owner are in the work nobody else wants to do. And you think back of dirty jobs and Mike Row and you think about how many, not sexy company ideas there are and jobs there are, but you can make money at it. And that's what people need. And right now what people need is trained talent. And what people need is education and what we do. And so if you're a company that's struggling with this and figuring out how are we going to be competitive, how are we gonna gain a competitive advantage over this industry of longevity and success? It's starting now with teaching people, putting in the time and effort, and you don't have to have a an elaborate curriculum. It is just that. It is time and care and mentoring. So if you have somebody that's willing to say, Hey, I've been in the shop for a year, two years, I'd really love to learn how to draft. I think I could do that. Give'em a chance. And if you can't, if you're saying I can't afford to lose them, what's easier to replace? A CNC operator and train somebody new to do that or to find somebody that's eager and willing to be an engineer. And especially if that's somebody already has shop experience in your shop with your machinery. They know what the output needs to be from your engineering team. Same thing for really any other role. If they're a project manager, they know what the output needs to be. They have the relationships ingrained in your, in your organization. To go and get things done. And worst case scenario, if you slow down, that person is cross-trained and able to be way more valuable for you. And it can be simple things like I used to every other week have open office hours for my drafters and engineers, and that was just, I would block out an hour of my time and I would be available either in my office or on teams, say, Hey, anybody who wants to join in and you have questions you want to cover let's go through it. If you have a topic you want me to show, and sometimes I would come prepared with a topic hey, I've been noticing these mistakes. Come getting back from the shop. We're gonna cover how to print the right reports, how to, check your optimizations for yield, how to, handle panel drawings for balance centered match, door panels, whatever it is. I would find ways to teach it or bring somebody in who knows it. But you have to constantly be soliciting feedback, constantly be giving feedback, constantly be. Finding opportunities to teach and invest in them. And that's hard to find that time. And to make that time, you gotta, you gotta schedule it. You gotta prioritize it. And I guarantee you over time it will add up. It'll become valuable. Record those sessions, document things. Have the people that you're teaching document their process. Say, Hey, I'm gonna show you how to do this. I want you to document it and then give it to me in a document of what I taught you so that I make sure you understand. And over time you've built a library of lessons, of processes of SOPs that becomes easier to replicate and to onboard the next person. And now you're also training somebody that can be a teacher and a trainer as well. But also you gotta give them opportunities to mess up, give them challenges. Don't always give the project to the safe set of hands and create a bottleneck. And it's, the first one or two times it might be, Hey, I'm gonna sit and do this with you and I'm gonna show you. And then it's, Hey, I'm gonna want you to do it. I'm gonna check it before you release it. And there's gonna be mistakes and that's part of it. But that's how people learn. And I guarantee if you think back to how did you learn, to not screw up building something too big to get in the building. It probably was a project where you, you build something too big to get in the building and you're never gonna forget that, how did you learn? How to lay out wall panels properly and not forget to account for shim space and cleats and reveals and things like that. It was probably a job where you screwed it up and you realize, oh man, I'm never gonna forget that. All those things are the opportunities you need to be able to give your people as well for them to grow into that and to gain the experience you have. So ultimately I think the biggest problem that we have in our industry is not a lack of talent, but it's a lack of training and mentorship. People that are willing to put in the time to develop people. I'm about to do it again. At Duck Works, we've grown, we have over a hundred people now. And when we first started it was me one-on-one with people, and then I would develop trainers and train the trainer, and now the trainer trains people. But we need people that can. Have more really advanced abilities for engineering and Microvellum. I'm gonna spend every afternoon for the next four weeks dedicated to training them. And so, even at the scale that we're at now I still spend time of my own time. Planning out creating lessons one-on-one, showing them, or, one on with five people, whatever it is walking them through things. And, hey, today we're gonna cover manual cut list, we're gonna go old school. I want you to understand how things used to be done before CAD cam software and so that you understand what you're creating is a cut list. That's what, parametric cam software is doing. But you need to understand the old way. Before you understand the new way, and then you're gonna always know that even though I've got all these formulas and I've got this parametric products and things, you should know what the result is supposed to be. You're basically creating instructions for either an operator or a machine to cut parts, to create a cut list, teaching people history, teaching people, how we got to where we're at and to understand. How to get things the hard way and they're gonna better understand the complex way. And so I think that, if you are somebody that has ever found yourself, man, I can't find good help. We're struggling to hire people. We're struggling to retain people. Ask yourself, do you have a culture of learning? Do you have a culture of teaching? Do you have people in your organization, the people who have the knowledge, are they teachers? Or are they just doers? Almost every company has that, Hey, I've got this person, they've got all the experience. We, everything has to go through them. And if it does, it goes great, but I only have one of them. And is that person willing to teach other people? And too often the people that have the knowledge are not good teachers. So maybe you have to pair them with somebody who has the right attitude, the right ability to, Hey I'm gonna try to extract knowledge from you a little bit at a time. So that I can become the teacher.'Cause it is a different mindset and I think that's really what we're lacking is people that are eager and willing and have the right attitude and willing to share and teach people. If you're parent, and my kids are getting into teenage years for the first time and I'm, they're starting to do sports and we have these coaches that they're. They're teachers they're willing to spend the time and walk through, Hey, step by step, this is how you do this. Pass the ball. This is how you catch the ball. This is how you look for your teammates and this is how we do this, this part of the process. And we're gonna do repeat and do reps and reps. And that's hard for people that you know, Hey, I'm a doer and I'm a technical individual contributor, it's hard for me to step back and watch somebody else do it wrong over and over again, and I correct them and I correct them and I teach them. And, but that's what it takes. That's how we develop people and that's really what you're willing to do that and create that culture of not just learning. Recruit people who are willing to learn, but you also need to develop people who are willing to teach, willing to mentor, willing to put in the time, and could pass their ego of if I teach them to do this, what am I able to do? What am I gonna do? That is an amazing problem as a business, as a leader to have of man, I've delegated, I've taught people to do everything. Now I don't have to do that. What am I gonna do? There. I guarantee you your business has other things that they wish somebody had time to do. And as a leader, that's what you should be constantly doing is teaching, delegating, finding something else to go solve, and then create a process and then teach and delegate it again. Create opportunities to delegate. Teach things to, your team. You're gonna very rapidly have amazing people that are extremely knowledgeable, that are constantly eager to learn, and you're gonna be now very good at figuring out a process and teaching people and delegating and you're self figuring out how to be a really good leader. So I think in my opinion. The talent gap, the skills gap is really less about the work that needs to be done, more about the people that have the knowledge, not taking the time, and not being willing to teach and inform and instruct and mentor. And if you're a shop owner, you're a leader. I would spend time with your leadership team investing in that, building a culture of what did you teach your team this week? How much time did you spend this week mentoring somebody. Did you sit down one? Are you having one-on-ones? Are you having team meetings? And if so, what are you, what is your team learning? Are they getting better? Those are things you can measure and you can very easily start. I encourage everybody to do that, and I guarantee you that most people don't have the time. Most people don't have the energy. The people who do prioritize that you're gonna be. You're gonna be setting yourself apart in this industry for long-term success.