Education & Associations: Amanda Conger on the Future of Millwork

 
In this episode of Verify In Field, host Jacob Edmond sits down with Amanda Conger, Executive Director of the Cabinet Makers Association (CMA), the Association of Closet and Storage Professionals (ACSP), and the National Woods Board (NWB). With over 20 years in the woodworking and machinery world, Amanda has become one of the industry's most influential voices for small shops, education, and workforce development. 

From the challenges facing today’s cabinetmakers to the nationwide push for better woodworking programs in schools, Amanda brings clarity to the talent crisis many millwork shops face. Together, Jacob and Amanda explore how associations, schools, and shop owners can work together to build sustainable career pathways for the next generation.  

About Our Guest 

Amanda Conger began her career in marketing at Stiles Machinery, where she discovered a passion for industry-wide collaboration and association leadership. That curiosity led her into executive roles first with CMA, then ACSP, and finally the National Woods Board. Through these organizations, she supports small and mid-size shops with education, networking, best practices, and crucially—access to a trained future workforce. 

Where to Learn More 

• Cabinet Makers Association: https://www.cabinetmakers.org/ 
• Association of Closet & Storage Professionals:  https://closets.org/ 
• National Woods Board: https://nationalwoodsboard.org/

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Transcript

Amanda Conger 0:00

I think the impact of AI is going to be influencing our industry more than we can even predict. And it won't be five to 10 years, it may be six months'cause AI moves so fast.

Jacob Edmond 0:18

Welcome back to Verify in Field everybody. Today I have special guest, Amanda Conger, who is Executive Director of the Cabinet Makers Association, as well as ASCP and board member on the National Woods Board. So, thank you for joining today, Amanda.

Amanda Conger 0:34

Absolutely. Thank you for having me.

Jacob Edmond 0:35

And so just before we jump in too far would you mind giving us just a brief background of your career history, how you came to be leading so many of these great associations.

Amanda Conger 0:46

Absolutely. It's been really great. I've been in the industry, I believe it's over 20 years now. I always lose track and I started with Styles, machinery, doing marketing and that's where I gained my experience for planning and just general marketing and everything. So was there 10 years and, I pretty much did everything, ran the department. Had so much fun doing that and learned so much about the industry. And one of my projects, which was influenced by my boss at the time was to, organize the associations and styles involvement with those organizations. I became huge supporter of industry associations and how they impact and what influence they can have and that type of thing. So I was just curious and I went out on my own for a little while and was contacted by one of the past presidents of the CMA to, if I was interested in being the executive director. And it actually didn't start as executive director. It started in sales and marketing, alongside the previous executive director. Within a year I had assumed the role of executive director. So that was really fun. And then I think it's been about 5 years now that I've been with ACSP. So they contacted me, the Closet organization. Everyone contacted me. This was great. I wasn't looking for any of these jobs, but the ACSP said, you know what, you're already doing this. You're doing such a good job with the CMA. Would you mind taking on another organization? I thought, how hard can it be? It's like we're already at the same events. I just have to be there wearing two hats. It's all the same stuff. Just copy paste, right? I equate it to having a second child. People say, oh yeah, they'll play together. Right? It'll be easy. It's not,

Jacob Edmond 2:45

Yeah.

Amanda Conger 2:47

it's a lot of work. So then, I joined a couple of years ago when the National Woods Board was formed. I was just a board member there too. I was also the secretary treasurer for them, and basically I was doing all the work. So they said, why don't you become the executive director of this organization too? So I did. And it's been great, really great. I really enjoy this industry. I'm passionate about it. My degree is actually in secondary education. I just never taught. So I really believe that's important for the future of our industry.

Jacob Edmond 3:21

Amazing. So for those that aren't familiar, could you tell us, starting with the CMA, the Cabinet Makers Association, that's the first organization you worked with and still do, can you explain what is CMA and who does it serve?

Amanda Conger 3:36

Yes, the CMA is a group of small to medium sized cabinet makers, primarily under 20 employees. The majority are one to five person shops, so we really are the entrepreneurs of the industry the backbone of the industry. Starts with small shops as everyone has. So we get together, we provide networking and education and collaboration is the important part of what we offer. We do regional events throughout the country. We have a national conference every two and a half years. We just had one in Detroit in October, which was really great. And that moves around the country too. And we have a magazine, a newsletter. And what our members love is the online forums, they can connect 24 7 with all the other members. Ask questions about their business, their operations, their products, et cetera, and get valuable answers and input from other members.

Jacob Edmond 4:38

And is CMA just US based, or is it North America or what is this?

Amanda Conger 4:43

primarily US and Canada.

Jacob Edmond 4:45

Okay.

Amanda Conger 4:46

We do have some, occasionally we get members from overseas who are just curious about what we're up to, and they don't usually last long.

Jacob Edmond 4:55

Yeah.

Amanda Conger 4:55

prohibit it, but it's just hard to

Jacob Edmond 4:58

Yeah.

Amanda Conger 4:59

in other countries,

Jacob Edmond 5:00

for sure. Awesome. And then the second organization, Association of Closet and Storage Professionals, the ACSP. Right. What does that association do?

Amanda Conger 5:10

So it's very similar to the CMA where they are the smaller businesses in the industry and primarily the owners and they are designers and not necessarily manufacturers, which was the interesting part to me because I thought they were just like the CMA members just making closets. But the members of, primarily the members of the ACSP do design and install, but they source their product from, sometimes from a cabinet manufacturer. So that's an interesting difference for me. But we do the same thing. We provide networking, education. We're really excited. We're going to launch our own magazine this year. And looking at getting involved more with our members going forward. So that's the ACSP has just celebrated our 20th anniversary. So we have been around a while. It's just one of those both organizations, people say is the best kept secret.

Jacob Edmond 6:10

Awesome.

Amanda Conger 6:11

Yeah.

Jacob Edmond 6:11

so are you mentioned both are a lot of times at the same event, so I imagine, you have some sort of presence at IWF, AWFS and those types of things as well as your own events.

Amanda Conger 6:22

Correct.

Jacob Edmond 6:22

Okay. And so what does that overlap look like with, let's say, you mentioned like CMA is a lot of the smaller. One to five, maybe up to 20 member shops. I imagine it's a lot of residential based shops or more regional based smaller shops.

Amanda Conger 6:38

Yes.

Jacob Edmond 6:39

and those, they're coming together I imagine a lot for sharing best practices, networking, and getting types of support that, they might not have in. Their region of what they're doing. A lot of them maybe aren't necessarily competing with each other, but they're like coming together for that networking and that support. And you mentioned there's a lot of activity on the forums. Can you talk about that? Like what are they, is that what it is? Is they're just kind of sharing knowledge?

Amanda Conger 7:04

Yes. So a lot of times the questions are, I have this project, I need to do this, this, and this, and I'm not sure how to execute this. Has anyone done this before? One of the questions I think recently, I'm not a cabinetmaker, I'm not very good at talking shop, I know just enough to be dangerous, but one of the questions was doing a really tall door and they were like, what material should I use, avoid warping and that type of thing. So it's a great combination of people who have been in the industry for a long time. Suppliers plus people new to the industry. So they're all learning from each other,

Jacob Edmond 7:42

Amazing. And ACSP you said is more the designers. And the people working with the clients, not the manufacturers. Correct.

Amanda Conger 7:50

Correct.

Jacob Edmond 7:50

Is there overlap between the two associations?

Amanda Conger 7:53

we actually have a cooperative membership where if you join one, you can join the other for half off,

Jacob Edmond 7:59

Wow.

Amanda Conger 7:59

is a great deal. And we probably have, I'm guessing a dozen overlap. The cabinet manufacturers are very curious about closets. And so that makes it fun. They want to learn from them, but the best strategy I can offer is rather than try to reinvent the wheel, it's'cause cabinets and closets are very different. The, rather than reinvent the wheel, I suggest that the cabinet manufacturers provide the products, but let the closet experts do the design and install.

Jacob Edmond 8:32

Right. Awesome. And so there is some, I would imagine some cooperation there as well with those members.

Amanda Conger 8:37

yes.

Jacob Edmond 8:38

What are some of the things that you've learned or you see from membership, from, the networking stuff? What are a lot of the, maybe the bottlenecks or the problems or kind of the headaches they're seeing? Today as cabinet makers particular,

Amanda Conger 8:52

Cabinet makers well, everyone, the whole industry is struggling with hiring finding qualified workers. Retaining them as well. They can find people, but then they don't pan out type of thing. That is why the National Woods Board was formed to educate the young people, the next generation of workers. The National Woods Board has a program more than a curriculum. It's a program. It is a curriculum, and it's been vetted, it's tested at schools throughout the country. It provides safety, machine instruction, they construct projects, make cabinets so they're not making bird houses, which is what has happened in shop classes in the past. They're getting real world experience. They're industry trained and ready to go, once they graduate. It's also tied in with the Woodwork Career Alliance of North America. They have those machine standards on how to operate the equipment. They get tested and they get certified which is a big bonus.

Jacob Edmond 9:59

So you're, that's the National Woods Board, which is the third organization that you're in charge of. So, what does that look like? Is the National Woods Board partnering with school programs, university programs like where are these students doing this work and getting this training you're talking about?

Amanda Conger 10:15

Yes, it's with high schools and we've done some vocational schools, community colleges as well. How it works is we get in with the school, school board administration show them our curriculum. And then they adopt it. We provide training and the resources, and when I mentioned it's a program is we also work on the in addition to the curriculum and the WCA affiliation, we also work with industry partners, suppliers to get the products they need in order to make the projects. So not just the wood and the materials, but also the machinery and everything they need in order to survive. So we kind of provide that bridge between education and industry.

Jacob Edmond 11:01

So the National Woods Board, as you mentioned was founded out of the need of industry that you've seen from CMA and the industry as a whole for talent. And it is, I imagine this isn't something that happens on its own. Like you mentioned there's suppliers that are providing materials and resources and stuff, and there's a lot of work and funding I imagine, that goes into making this happen, right? Is that mostly suppliers and partners that are invested in this and seeing this succeed?

Amanda Conger 11:29

Yes, it is industry suppliers and the manufacturers who want the end product. They want this, the graduates of the program. But that is our biggest need is funding to keep going. We don't charge a lot for the curriculum because schools don't have huge budgets.

Jacob Edmond 11:45

Right.

Amanda Conger 11:45

So that's not a money maker for us. It's the support we get from industry that keeps us going.

Jacob Edmond 11:51

Okay. And then you mentioned there's a partnership with Woodward Career Alliance. Can you explain that for people that you know,'cause I've heard of both. I've heard of Woodwork Career Alliance, I've heard of the National Woods Board. But for people who maybe don't know what they are and the difference between two and how you guys collaborate, can you explain that?

Amanda Conger 12:08

Absolutely. So the Woodwork Career Alliance has a set of skill standards to train people on specific equipment used in the wood shop. So they have a set of instructions that is incorporated in our curriculum and tested on in our curriculum, and then they get a certification, whether it's a saw blade certificate, the green certificate is the higher level or the core. They can take that. It's called a passport where they get stamps in it and they can take that to their employer and say, look, I know how to do these things already. So that training on the job is more specific to that specific piece of equipment rather than exactly how to operate safely that type of thing.

Jacob Edmond 12:56

And then the Woods Board has incorporated that into your program.

Amanda Conger 13:00

Yes.

Jacob Edmond 13:01

Okay.

Amanda Conger 13:02

So not only do we teach, our curriculum covers the theory of woodworking, how to use a tape measure, which is huge because nobody understands the math that goes into it. And so it's great because our curriculum can also give students math credits while they're not in a typical classroom, Safety standards, the machinery, the projects, the hands-on learning. They actually make a real cabinet, which they take home, and they're really proud of what they've created.

Jacob Edmond 13:33

And so you've got a program with the National Woods Board now that schools can adopt, schools can purchase it sounds like, and incorporate. And so for people that maybe are listening and they say, Hey, how do I get this into my local trade school or my local high school? So to help build talent locally where my shop is, how do they go about doing that?

Amanda Conger 13:54

That's a great question,'cause that's where we need the help is connecting on a local level. So if anyone listening is aware of their school that either doesn't have a wood shop program or has one that's making birdhouses and is not very helpful. If they can connect the dots between us and the school, introduce, make introductions reach out to me, and get us connected. Because finding those schools is the biggest problem we have. There's just a lot.

Jacob Edmond 14:27

And then it, how, what does that look like for implementation? Say a school has said, okay, we've got the funding we've got the shop, we've got the teacher that wants to implement this. What does that look like? Is it all just documentation that you hand over or does the teacher need to go through any type of training or certification?

Amanda Conger 14:45

Yes, we do teacher training in person our pilot school, The Mill in Colorado Springs, if you've heard of that,

Jacob Edmond 14:51

Yeah.

Amanda Conger 14:51

Industry Learning Lab. that was the pilot program where they started the curriculum and it's been vetted there since I believe, 2017. So we do training there because it's like a great showcase. It's the best of the best. It's like if you can see what they're doing there implement any bit of their program, it's a huge accomplishment. Typically in early summer, right after they get done with school and are preparing for the next year, we do training in person at The Mill, and we go through the curriculum in depth. Plus the projects so they understand what they need in order to execute the program. And we talk about the theory of the program plus the actual what they need to do in order to execute it. We provide them with the lesson plans, the syllabus the testing, everything.

Jacob Edmond 15:44

Amazing. And so what's next for The Woods Board? Like is there anything that you guys are chasing towards or working towards that you're needing support, obviously funding and schools to implement this, but is the next step just getting it in more schools or is there anything else you guys are trying to develop?

Amanda Conger 16:00

Yeah, get it in more schools. And we're also trying to hire more staff so that we can have an expert on, that we've hired who understands, who has worked in the schools, and also understands our program and can help implement these because with new implementations, people wanna know what machinery do I need? How many pieces of boards do I need? Like they need it spelled out for them and it's all very specific to what they may already have, space they have to work in. It's just like setting up a small shop,

Jacob Edmond 16:30

Yeah.

Amanda Conger 16:31

Setting up a classroom. To have someone hands-on that can walk them through, that is what we need. That's our next step.

Jacob Edmond 16:38

Amazing. So with all this experience that you've got now, you've got years at the CMA and with ACSP, and now with the National Woods Board. Obviously the Woods Board comes out of what you guys have found is that the industry needs talent, the industry needs. People coming in and I've had tons of people on this podcast that have talked about the very same problem. What do you see as the solution to that? Obviously Woods Board, I assume, believes this program is a piece of that, but what do you think is the biggest gap that as an industry we're not doing that we need to be doing to help remedy this problem?

Amanda Conger 17:15

There's actually two problems as I see it. The first one is that we need to paint a better picture about what our industry is. It is advanced manufacturing. It is not a dusty, dirty wood shop that people think it is. Yes, it can be dusty and dirty, but it's also advanced manufacturing. Paint the picture reality. So parents of students understand that it is a lucrative career and it's fulfilling. That's the difference. I think that because working with your hands and creating beautiful products, there's just so much there. The second problem is that everyone thinks someone else is going to do this for them, people need to step up and go to your local schools, get involved, and really become an advocate for it themselves because. It's not gonna be the guide on the street, it's not gonna be someone in another country, state, whatever. It needs to happen at the local level so each shop owner who needs employees needs to step up.

Jacob Edmond 18:15

Yeah, no, I agree. I think if there was even a fraction of the effort, we see from people complaining about a lack of talent, put towards producing talent. I think, we'd see a big chip taken out of this problem. And you mentioned you've been in the industry for 20 years, so you've seen a great deal of, progress and. And change over the industry. But also you've talked to, I'm sure, tons and tons of members of your organizations that have been in the industry much longer. Is there anything that you've learned or perspectives you've heard about, what has changed? Because this feels like this is a recent problem, at least in the last 10, 15, 20 years maybe of, lack of talent. Has it always been a problem or is this recency bias or has something. It's changed, like obviously as a society, as overall, there's other outside forces that have changed. We've taken shops out of education and there's been a push towards more white collar work as a whole. And the way we manufacture has changed. But is there any of those things those forces you feel like has had the most significant impact of getting us where we're at today?

Amanda Conger 19:23

I think it's a common misconception that when people automate, get more machinery in their shops, that they are eliminating that human problem, not being able to find good people. You still need people to operate the machinery. It's not taking that away. It's kinda like people who are scared, the AI is gonna take their job away. AI will never replace the craft of woodworking, and that's still there even with automation. Two have to work together. And I think that's a difference is that people are like, oh, I'll just buy this machine. I don't need to hire more people. And it's a different type of hiring field now.

Jacob Edmond 19:59

But yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people see, the nexus of, of CNC and automation coming into our industry. And I think that they see that as, oh, that's causing us to take jobs from people. And I think there's a fear a lot of people that are in industry that say, oh, you're gonna bring in this technology and it's gonna replace me, or it's gonna put me out of a job. And if anything, it seems like it's inverse to that is that has been a reaction by the industry to. I can't find people to do this very specialty task anymore. I can't find good finishers, so I'm gonna buy an automated finishing machine. I can't find good custom woodworkers. So I'm gonna try to put a bandaid on that basically with, okay, can I get this automated because I can't find reliable people that are willing to stick around or are able to learn this skillset or have already learned this skillset. Like more often than not, I don't hear owners saying. Man, I wish I could get rid of these people, so I'm gonna go buy a machine. It's, I can't find people, so I have no choice but to go invest in this automation to try to fill that void. Right. And even with that, it's not, like you said, it's not that, okay, this replaces the need for people. It's just, okay, now I need somebody that has this skillset to run that. And if anything, you're better off if you have somebody that already knows how to do it without the machine. But now they can tell a machine to do it. Right.

Amanda Conger 21:25

The whole process.

Jacob Edmond 21:26

And I think, I've said this multiple times in the past on the podcast, but we've gone through the last 20 years where CNC machinery has really entered our woodworking, right? And with it, we adopted it with existing people. So if you were a guy with 10, 15 years on the shop floor, suddenly then it was. Hey, can you learn CAD? Can you learn to program this? And can you learn to run this CNC? You already know how to do it without it. Can you learn this? And then those guys have become our, late career engineers, our late career tech guys. But we've never figured out how to just make those people from scratch. And so now you've got these shop owners, these experienced people that are like, well, why can't we figure out how to get people with experience? Well, you're not training people without the machine anymore. You're not getting people that had 10 years job experience before the machine and now you can transition them in. You're expecting that somebody's gonna come in from the ground up or you're gonna hire'em from somewhere that already has that experience, but nobody's creating that. And I think that's the gap we've got, which you guys are trying to fill in part with this program with the Woods Board is there is an importance to have, like, you have to be intentional about, okay, if in five years I want somebody that has five years experience, they've gotta be starting now. Doing those things that you did when you started, and that's not just sweeping the floor or that's not just jumping on a CNC machine and staying on that without getting experience around the rest of the shop.

Amanda Conger 22:50

Exactly. We struggle with that with the National Woods Board curriculum because the school, the manufacturers who want to hire the graduates are like, train. You need to train them on the CNC. I'm like, we have to walk before we can run. We have to crawl first, they have to learn a tape measure and then hand tools, and finally they'll get to the CNC. But you can't start with the CNC.

Jacob Edmond 23:13

Yeah. Absolutely. And, I always remember I took, I think it was pre-calculus in high school, and I remember the first month or so our teacher was teaching us. The hard way to do everything. It was like, okay, they were teaching us the long way behind before, Hey, here's the formula and here's the formula. Once you memorize this is how you can do derivatives. But before that, we had to learn the long way of getting there, which made us understand the formula later. And it's very, this much the same thing with really anything you're learning in a trade, it's okay. You're gonna understand when you're running that CNC, you might not ever have to go back and do it the long way. But if we understand the old way of doing things, you're gonna understand how wood moves better. You're gonna understand grain direction. You're gonna understand all the pieces that go into using that machine to get to the same result. Whereas if you just teach somebody how to push a button and follow instructions, they're not gonna know how to problem solve on their own or to shift when ultimately technology changes again.

Amanda Conger 24:13

Yes, that is exactly true.

Jacob Edmond 24:15

What trends are, what are you seeing in the future? Obviously we've talked a lot about how things have evolved over the last 10, 15, 20 years. Right? But where are we going? Obviously we have this current problem of talent and getting people into the industry, but even as we're trying to solve the problem today, the industry's continuing to move in directions. Right. Um, Is there anything that you're seeing that you think is gonna shift over the next five to 10 years that you know we should be preparing for now?

Amanda Conger 24:43

That's a great question. I wish I had a crystal ball, but I think the impact of AI is going to be influencing our industry more than we can even predict. And it won't be five to 10 years, it may be six months'cause AI moves so fast.

Jacob Edmond 25:01

Yeah.

Amanda Conger 25:01

But again, like I said earlier, I don't think it will ever replace the craft of woodworking. It will just like other jobs, it's doing the same thing. It makes you better to do the actual project and rather than wasting your time on busy work, et cetera. I don't know how AI will impact. I know people are using it already for design and all the fun stuff on the front end, you can't do it on the production side.

Jacob Edmond 25:29

Yeah, no, I think we're gonna s and even in just, I remember when it first came out, I am on a Technology Task Force with AWI and we get tons of questions about ai. I think there's a bit of a fear of just like, okay, what am I what, I don't wanna miss out on this. I don't wanna miss something I should be doing with it, but also what do I do with it?

Amanda Conger 25:49

Mm-hmm. Yes.

Jacob Edmond 25:50

And I think you're right. Like it, and even just in the last three years, I guess, or two years since. Like Chat GPT came out and people started it. It entered the zeitgeist of what everybody's aware of. But I think even just in everything we're talking about, like there is a very real use case. I'm using it on a daily basis for just asking these types of questions that we're asking and kind of having a running conversation because it has access to the entire internet and the entire knowledge base of all the stuff we're talking about.

Amanda Conger 26:21

Mm-hmm.

Jacob Edmond 26:21

It, a lot of times for me is able to spark ideas of Hey, if I'm a business owner, and here's the problems I that I'm trying to solve today like the questions and the conversations you're having in your head, if you start to have those with Chat GPT or Gemini, or Claude or any of these it starts to open conversations and ideas that you otherwise wouldn't think about. And even to the point of Hey, I know that I need to maybe I wanna call, Amanda and figure out how we can work with them to get National Woods Board, and how can I benefit from getting this to start getting talent that's gonna get me where my business needs to be five years from now? What should I be doing today? It can help you with some actionable steps and even just, okay, where are you at? Audit your business. Give you ideas. It is less of, I think people think it of as like, Google let me search and I have to sift to the results. And for me the conversational aspect of it, of how can I use it today is let me ask you questions and have it ask me questions and basically tell it. I want you to interact with me as a business consultant, as a hiring consultant, whatever it is, and it's gonna give you advice and ideas that you otherwise might not ever think of.

Amanda Conger 27:36

It just speeds everything up. It allows you to make decisions faster and move on to the next project.

Jacob Edmond 27:41

Yes, that's a lot of it is sparking those things that I am procrastinating on.

Amanda Conger 27:47

Mm-hmm.

Jacob Edmond 27:47

I know I need to do this, but I don't know what the next step is. A lot of times if I just jump into that, Hey, this is what I'm struggling with, I don't know what I can do next it will usually spark me into action.

Amanda Conger 27:57

Yes.

Jacob Edmond 27:58

For those that are listening and they're thinking, you know, Hey, how can I get involved? Whether that's with CMA or the National Woods Board, or all of them. What is the best way for people that wanna find out more or see how they can get started?

Amanda Conger 28:10

The best way would be to go to our websites. CMA is cabinet makers.org. Cabinet makers is plural.org. ACSP is closets.org,

Jacob Edmond 28:20

Oh, wow.

Amanda Conger 28:21

So that's easy. National Woods Board is National Woods board.org.

Jacob Edmond 28:25

Awesome. Okay we'll link all those in the show notes, so if you're listening, you can go down to the show notes and click on those links. And where can people see you next in person? What's the next event?

Amanda Conger 28:36

I hope to be going to Cuba as the International Builder Show.

Jacob Edmond 28:39

Awesome. Nice. Well, Amanda, thank you again for coming on and sharing about these great trade associations with us and the work that you're doing. Appreciate all the work you're doing to help our move our industry forward, and hope to have you on again in the future.

Amanda Conger 28:53

Thanks so much.

Jacob Edmond 28:54

Thanks, Amanda. I. Hey everybody, before we end the year, I wanted to announce here and let everybody know, uh, if you're listening to this, we are launching, new profiles on Instagram, TikTok, uh, probably Facebook, and a new website for this podcast. So we'll be going into season three. So, if you're listening to this, come January, you should see some announcements on our DuckWorks page, but we are gonna be moving the podcast to its own channel. So VIF_Podcast on Instagram, on TikTok, and VIF podcast.com will be the website. So you'll still be get able to get there. We'll be a posting announcements and posts on our main ductwork page, but we'll be moving all this content to its own channels so that you can have dedicated follows just for the podcast content going forward. So, please head on over there, and hit like, and subscribe to all of those channels where you like to follow what's best. we'll still be in the same feeds on Spotify, apple Podcast, YouTube, so nothing will change there where you listen to the podcast. But if you're following us on the social media platforms for Instagram. TikTok Facebook, go out, give us a like, and subscribe there. Look forward to seeing you. Happy New Year's. Merry Christmas to everybody. Happy holidays and look forward to seeing you on the next one in January.