Better Drawings, Better Builds: Jobsite Lessons with Katelyn Rossier

Better Drawings, Better Builds: Jobsite Lessons with Katelyn Rossier

In this episode of Verify In Field, host Jacob Edmond sits down with Katelyn Rossier, a licensed architect in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, and the founder of MentorDINO, a training platform built to close the gap between architecture school and real-world practice. Katelyn shares how spending more than half of her career on job sites reshaped the way she thinks about drawings, detailing, construction administration, and the relationships that make projects run smoother.

Together, they unpack a challenge both architects and trades feel every day: the disconnect between design and construction. From “design intent” that gets misunderstood to drawings overloaded with information that still miss the details people need to build, this conversation is a practical look at how teams can collaborate better and why mentorship is the real solution to the industry’s training problem. 

About Our Guest

Katelyn Rossier is a licensed architect and the founder of MentorDINO, an education and mentoring platform designed to help architects strengthen their technical skills, communication, and jobsite confidence. After working in both small firms and large, multi-location environments, she saw firsthand how understaffing, burnout, and limited training impact drawing quality and construction outcomes.

Today, Katelyn runs two businesses: MentorDINO, and her architecture firm, Rossier Architecture and Design, bringing together field experience, practical detailing, and mentorship to help architects become stronger partners to contractors and trades.
 

Where to Learn More

MentorDINOS website link: https://academy.mentordino.com/pages/mentordino-home-page

MentorDINOSLinkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/mentordino-llc/

Katelyn Rossier LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/katelyn-rossier/

MentorDINOS  Youtube: https://www.youtube.com/@mentorDINO

Find out more about this episode's sponsor, Skillya: https://skill-ya.com/?utm_source=VIF%20Podcast 

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Transcript

Katelyn Rossier (2) 0:00

a lot of the times you would never expect where your life's gonna go until something hits you in the face and then you learn something about yourself and adjust.

Jacob Edmond 0:14

Welcome back to Verify and Field. We're starting season three today with an exciting guest of Katelyn Rossier. And she is architect and founder of MentorDINO an ad advocate for architects. And she's also recently starting her own firm as Principal Architect. So thank you for joining us today, Katelyn.

Katelyn Rossier (2) 0:31

Yeah. Thanks for having me so much to talk about today.

Jacob Edmond 0:34

Yes. If you don't mind, just to get started, could you give a little bit of just your background of, your career journey and what led you to starting where you're at now, which is MentorDINO as well as your own firm?

Katelyn Rossier (2) 0:45

Yeah, so now I'm two business owners, so it's, it's always fun to juggle. So, Hi everyone. I'm Katelyn Rossier. I am a licensed architect in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. And. My journey, it's still more traditional. I went to architecture school at Kent State University in Ohio, got my bachelor's and master's degree there, and came back to Pittsburgh, right as all the crazy recession stuff was starting to lighten up. So there really still wasn't many jobs available for architects. You call people try to get in and you get one job offer and you have to take it. So I was fortunate enough to be in a local firm here in Pittsburgh that I could get on job sites. So I've actually spent more than half of my career on job sites, more than being behind a computer trying to get things done. So I think that really propelled my learning, just being on site, learning from the trades, and also having some difficulties along the way and learning that it's not so easy. Um, I was at that firm for six years. I actually almost left architecture completely within that one because I had very high level, a very bad project where everybody left. The project manager on the architecture side, left the project architect just wanted to design in circles. I was young, the project manager on the construction side was very sexist and would only listen to if I brought a male on site. I had a structural engineer leave. I had the civil engineer blow through their fee and not get their stuff done before they left, and so it was. It was a very difficult project, huge learning curve, but I really noticed the lack of training I had. And then as I grew into my career, I just saw the lack of training that wasn't happening altogether in architecture school, they teach you design, problem solving, thinking outside the box. Money is not an issue, gravity is not an issue. Clients you don't have. It was bringing in and bridging that gap and me having that tough project where I learned a lot in the field. I saw myself versus others of my similar experience level have very different experiences because they were behind a computer and they didn't get to go on a job site and see how things actually come together or when design didn't quite align with everything. So that's kind of the precipice for MentorDINO starting later, which is why I tell that story. I left that firm very burned out. We were 15 people short in staffing, so that meant we could have had 15 more people full time on all of our projects to get everything done. So we were very behind on projects. The drawing quality wasn't there. That doesn't happen when you're 15 people short. You drafting and drawing is. You need somebody to do it. So between being behind, seeing how bad drawings going out onto a project can be a killer during construction administration and just that burnout level. So I left and went to a design build company, so that had a design studio and a contracting arm. Did a hot stint there. It just wasn't the right personalities. All in the mix. And they didn't have respect for architects, let alone a female architect within that space. So I left and joined Smith Group at that time, and that was February, 2020. And so joined a large firm hoping I could navigate where I wanted to take my career in a big firm. And glad I moved ahead of 2020. And so they were able to, keep me on board through all the COVID crisis and figure that out and figure out how a large firm operates. But then I started to see how a large firm segment people, and you don't get that encompassing experience seeing a project from start to finish all the time or opportunities to get on a job site when you're young in your career.'Cause you have to get on a plane and it's, are you gonna charge the client for a project manager, project architect, and an intern to go onto a job site? And you don't. So I got to see different scales of projects and how architects grow and expand and learn. And all during that time, MentorDINO started. So I'm on, I just finished year three of MentorDINO. I have a podcast for the mentoring side where I talk to people in, around the AEC industry and then I teach architects and try to fill that gap of training I kept seeing from firm to firm, and as I grew in my own career, I wanted to do something to change the trajectory, make construction administration easier, teach people and teach them from the trades perspective and the contractor's perspective for what they're seeing as well as an architect's point of view. And then at the end of last year, I decided to start my own firm. So Rossier Architecture and Design to really blend these two halves together because I love being on a job site. I wanted to be on more projects locally. I wanted to see more projects from start to finish, but also showcase construction and showcase pictures. When I was at the other firm, I couldn't showcase my work with MentorDINO. They had to be two separate entities. So going off on my own is the first time I'm learning to be an entrepreneur on the architect side and have my own business, but bringing it all together that if I'm on a job site and learning something, I can post those pictures or I can reach out to manufacturers, go see products, and I can share that information and I don't have to have worry about red tape and what I can and can't share. So I'm hoping starting my own firm will be growth for me to learn the business side of architecture and grow more partnerships in Pittsburgh, but then also grow MentorDINO in that training so it can all become one part of me and not two halves of me. So that is a very long-winded story, but I feel like I have to highlight those different pivot points because a lot of the times you would never expect where your life's gonna go until something hits you in the face and then you learn something about yourself and adjust.

Jacob Edmond 6:38

No, that's great. I could definitely hear what, as you were telling the experience of your first firm. The things that would make sense to spur you to start MentorDINO, and that totally makes sense and a lot of what you shared is relatable from my experience. You know, I, interned in a very small, like a single woman architect firm was when I worked as an intern architect. And there were jobs that I was able to go to the job site and do construction administration. But the majority of the work we did, didn't. And I remember that being one of my very big struggles while being in architecture school and then working as an intern architect. And it was like we would draw these jobs that I was like, I never got to see the fruits of our labor. And I very much yearned for that. Like when I went to architecture school, it was because I remember growing up and working in construction. Like, I love the being on job sites of stick-built homes. And I think a lot of what you described it. There's this idea in media and in kind of the zeitgeist of what an architect is, which is very polar opposite of what it is in the trades and in real life experience. And so you see shows and movies and really in kind of the world at large, idolizes, like being an architect is this very like aspirational, like very well respected like this rockstar ideal, right? And in practice it's nothing like that for 99% of US architects, right. I think. Within the trades, particularly in commercial architecture, is very different than working at a big firm is very different than working in a residential, in a small hey, you get to work on these things that you're designing. Most architects are not really designing their design. And when you're doing construction administration, and I think that's been always like this weird dichotomy to me is okay, in the day to day, most clients don't wanna hire an architect. They have to,

Katelyn Rossier (2) 8:25

Yeah.

Jacob Edmond 8:26

Really most. The people you work with on a day-to-day basis of the trades and the contractors and stuff, don't respect you. And so it's this weird thing because when we're coming up and we try to be an architect and you're in school, they teach you this whole thing that is, you go for five to seven years of schooling. And almost learn nothing of what you need in practice. Which, I had a lot of friends in engineering school that they have these great programs where you get to go work and they, the schools will help set you up with jobs. They do job fairs and get you internships and architecture. It's like you're on your own to get real experience.

Katelyn Rossier (2) 9:02

Yeah.

Jacob Edmond 9:02

So that's why it was so intriguing to me to have you on the show of you starting MentorDINO because I think so many people see architects as you have all this education, you have all this training, we have all these codes and stuff. You guys are they expect architects to be the experts on everything. But I don't think most people realize, one, how much that actually entails and We're actually prepared for that role.

Katelyn Rossier (2) 9:25

Yeah.

Jacob Edmond 9:25

Can you talk a little bit more about that from your experience?

Katelyn Rossier (2) 9:29

I always explain, especially when I'm trying to explain the difference between engineers and architects, is architects know, need to know a little about a lot, whereas engineers know a lot about a little.

Jacob Edmond 9:41

Yeah.

Katelyn Rossier (2) 9:42

And the trades are the same way. You guys know a lot of information about a very niche, particular thing. And what I try to teach architects is you need to leverage those resources. You need to build up that network. If you don't know how cabinetry goes together, call a manufacturer. Go get and see how something's actually built and put together, and you'll understand the detail more, but. It's always about hours and fees. And it's hard to get away from a computer when the mentality when you start your career is you better have your butt in the seat or you're not being profitable.'Cause you need to be 80, 90% billable. We don't have time for you to go wander around and not be producing work, which can be hard. And I also try to teach relationships.'Cause that's something I learned between that hard project where I almost left my career to my next project. I had an amazing superintendent and it was night and day and seeing how those interactions changed, how we work and it's. And not everything's gonna be perfect. And if you can look at a detail and a contractor tell you, Hey, this isn't gonna work, but you can problem solve together on a job site. Or if you have the carpenter there and say, okay, this isn't gonna work. Here's what the design intent that I need to meet for the owner, whether it be acoustics or function or what those conversations were, how would you approach it? And talk through it together. I actually have had a number of contractors surprised. I'll sit down on a job site and start sketching if need be. I bring on my laptop and let's look at it. Let me cut a section through what the final job's supposed to be.'cause I don't wanna leave the job site without an answer. I may need to leave the job site and send you a confirming RFI with a formal sketch for legal purposes, but I hate leaving a job site. I don't know. I have to go check. And sometimes you have to do that as a young professional, but if I can problem solve there with you, then I can find out, hey, is that detail that I'm thinking not gonna work? And it's getting that relationship change. I've also met architects that are very combative with contractors that, they're out to get me, they're out to have a change order, and I'm like at least they can do change orders. As an architect, we can't do change orders if the client wants a change in design, hopefully we have enough fee already in there. We can't really do a change order unless there's an actual formal change in scope. And that's, if even the architect feels nice enough to do that, I always try to teach, Hey, a contractor, if there's a change in scope, they're gonna send it to you and there's gonna be a profit margin on it. And architects don't do that. We're really bad at money and we just wanna help and be helpful. So that's also where firms can lose money as well. The other important part, I try to teach. I guess there's too many stories with it. Teaching the trades that the architect that's on the job site is not always the architect that was in all the meetings with the client. Wasn't the person that actually, guided the design and wasn't the person that drafted it. I've been in construction on the construction side where I didn't do any of the drawings, and you feel very stuck because you don't have those stories behind you to understand what's going on, and sometimes you don't have the whole building in your head, whereas when you're in that design project team the whole time. I have projects I did 10 years ago that I could still redraw. I may not have all the dimensions right, but I know what rooms are there, what type of doors going in. And I could lay out a whole hospital that I did because that's how much I had it in my head. But the project I did in ca, I could probably outline the shape of the rooms. But what the function of those rooms were, I don't remember.'Cause I wasn't part of those conversations. So oftentimes you may not be with the architect that actually designed it. And so that may be why there's questions they can't answer. But what I learned on another project is the connecting to the trades and teaching them the design story doesn't happen. What I would love to encourage architects to do is do a design presentation to the subs, the trades, and the contractor beyond just rendering and the drawings.'Cause I've done ones where acoustics were very important. So the duct work looked really complicated unnecessarily. And in a pre-bid meeting, I'm like, no, there's a reason. And I explained to them the reason that we are only going through one wall. And it was the wall with a door. And you can't cross ducts from room to room.'Cause they were highly sensitive testing rooms. And once they understood that, they're like. Thank you for telling me that. So we didn't go redraw everything, thinking the mechanical engineer's an idiot

Jacob Edmond 14:27

Yeah.

Katelyn Rossier (2) 14:27

and then have to redo all their shops again. They would've burned through their entire fee on the project because of a mistake that they thought they were doing more efficient. But then I had trades that one of the spaces we designed with light, because it was very neuroscience based and adults and kids. And so it looked really odd when you're on the job site and it's just plain white walls. And a lot of the tradesmen were like, what are you guys doing in here? I don't get it. Everything else is coming together and we see how it's doing, but it wasn't until the light fixtures were coming in and you test the lights, which happens right at the end of the project that they got it because we wanted people to interact with crossing beams of light, and I'm like, oh, we should have done a presentation to everybody. So the drywaller knows when I put a level five finish on this wall. This is what's gonna happen to it. Not just because it's a big wall for artwork, it's this is gonna be an active display for what people are doing or why this random bench is here. Hiding lights, like they get it.'Cause it wasn't a theater that we were doing, it was more of a doctor's office type thing. So that's where I learned there's just so much disconnect between. What happens in design and getting it to the trades. And I feel like if you can tell those stories, I think it would give more ownership to the trades and what you're putting together. You see where the end result is going and what you're building for beyond just, okay, I gotta put up walls today and then go home. Bring that all together to everybody.

Jacob Edmond 16:01

I think that's what you just stared in. That story, I think to, to me is a very great kind of encapsulation of the, the term design intent. And I think that's a become kind of a buzzword that the trades generally hate. But also that most people don't really understand or it, what is behind it. Use it and throw it out oh no, that's not the design intent, or this is the design intent. And I think most people in the trades automatically they shut off when they hear that word and they're like, oh God, we're going into architect world. Just tell me what to build.

Katelyn Rossier (2) 16:30

Yep. Yep.

Jacob Edmond 16:31

and, but. I always encourage And I think, if those of us in the trades would understand that better and understand what you just described, and I think both sides can do a lot better job. But I think general commercial construction, is largely controlled by the GCs and is set up

Katelyn Rossier (2) 16:45

Hmm.

Jacob Edmond 16:46

Kind of. Failure to begin with in a lot of ways, and I think it makes it very difficult for those that are coming in later, like millworkers and cabinet and the finishing trades that they come in at the tail end. A lot of side, times they're not bidding the job until, contract documents are largely already completed. They don't have any participation in that journey. And also a lot of them aren't really equipped to really jump in and say, Hey, let me understand. Because sometimes one trade, like you explained, it maybe is driving the design intent of this area and the others aren't so important.

Katelyn Rossier (2) 17:17

Mm-hmm.

Jacob Edmond 17:17

So I think it's very important to come in and understand because for millworkers, a lot of times. Maybe the common areas or maybe the lobby, the millwork is the driving force behind that and the other trades need to support it. And if that's the case, it's really important for the woodworker to come in and understand Hey, what is the design intent here? Are you trying to get my panel reveals to line up with the moens from the glass? Sub. Okay then I need to be talking to that trade to make sure that we can execute what you're trying to do.'cause a lot of times the architect is trying to execute on something they have no control over

Katelyn Rossier (2) 17:47

Yeah.

Jacob Edmond 17:48

not even the expertise to be able to execute it. But if they can communicate and make sure that those trades understand. Here's what the driving force is we need to make sure you guys align with each other. If it's up half inch or down a half inch, that's not important. Here's the controlling idea here. That's what we need to understand is that it's a design intent and usually The trade partner, you can execute that in a way that's better for you and better for the final result. If you start by understanding that, and it might look totally different than what the details show when you bid the drawing,

Katelyn Rossier (2) 18:18

Yeah.

Jacob Edmond 18:18

can understand what that is. I think that's the part as a lot of times we just sign off, like we have no say in this I've gotta build exactly what they drew, but what they drew doesn't follow the laws of physics and isn't something that is gonna result in a good product. But a lot of times it might've been an intern that copied a detail and modified it, and they were themselves not fully understanding the design intent.

Katelyn Rossier (2) 18:41

Yeah, because there's so many that you. So many times younger professionals are copy and pasting or even firm standard details, not actually being up to where they should be, and they don't do a good job at going back and seeing how well that product has lasted, or that install has lasted over a number of years to see how it's actually held up to the test of time. And so when you make that mistake, it just gets copied and pasted from project to project. And for younger professionals, you're. You're flying at the seat of your pants, just trying to go as fast as you can. You're also coordinating with the engineers. Owners now want clash free models, which is really hard to do, and it's a lot more time. It takes time away from us drafting something that is clear, concise, and complete for you, because we're sitting on engineering calls helping mechanical and plumbing move ducts and pipes around to get it to work. So I'm not an engineer, but when I was doing big projects, half my time I'd be on calls with engineers moving their stuff around and not getting an outlet on a feature wall. And so it's anything and everything from those little shifts, but those young professionals. They're just flying. And if your firm's understaffed like I was at that first firm, the drawings aren't gonna get there. And there's just simply not enough hours in the day. Even if I stayed up late every day, we needed the human power to get there. But we also don't teach architects, what you actually need to put in drawings. Before when you were hand drawing, you knew this is, there's only so much hand drawing I can do and these are the things to showcase scope. Whereas BIM tools, just because you can create a section view doesn't mean you need the section view. So I don't know how many times you see a whole sheet of drawings that it's like. I don't need any of this information and you missed the one section. I actually do need to be able to build this component or understand the design intent. So oftentimes they're just not taught. So then you end up with drawing sets that are a hundred sheets that maybe could have been 80 if they were just more clear or simplified the design to not have too many one-offs. It's definitely hard as an architect trying to steer a ship and in the bigger the projects, it's more people you have to communicate to, more hands involved on a project, which just leads to more mistakes or more meetings and less time to actually get things done. Smaller firms, you tend to get a little bit more of the people that'll stay on the full length, but they may not have the standard details and they may be really tight on their fees. And or if they don't wanna come on a job sign construction, they may have burned all their fee in design because if an owner just wants to keep changing things, but they haven't changed scope, again, architects aren't good at asking for those additional services to get things moving. So sometimes if we literally don't wanna go out on site, as often tends to be, we're already out of money and we're going more and more into the red every minute we spend on the project, which can be hard. And I've actually joked, going off on my own, I've been out of my office more than I was when I was at a large firm'cause I was just always behind a computer on meetings, trying to get some stuff done. And my calendar, I actually have time to draft. Whereas when I was on a large firm, I'm the project architect guiding this whole project and I don't have any time to draft and move details around'cause I'm just stuck in nine hours of meetings every day in an eight hour day. So that's a little. Behind the scenes of architect work, but.

Jacob Edmond 22:16

Yeah, no, I think that's helpful. And I think not a lot of people understand how the architecture bus general business model works and it's very different than the GCs, which I think the GCs, if anything, architects probably learn a lot about what commercial GCs, how they've have, how they've structured things to be, work very well for them.

ADD 22:34

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Jacob Edmond 23:06

Talk a little bit about, you touched on, your experience early on with struggling to be respected as a woman in a male dominated field. And I think even with people in inside your own company. And like I, I always talk about, I, think architects don't get enough respect, I think, in the way they should, but it is a field that does attract assholes.

Katelyn Rossier (2) 23:28

Yes.

Jacob Edmond 23:29

this trade as whole, but definitely architects and I don't wanna discredit that at all because I know everybody who's been in this trade has encounter, had an encounter with multiple of those. There are some very egotistical, like guys that have the ideal of I'm the architect, I'm the authority, this is my design, everybody should do what I say. And also it is very. And sometimes chauvinistic and I think it's very difficult for people coming up. And a lot of times maybe they experience that and they feel like, Hey, I did my time. You have to do your time. And it just is this vicious cycle. But can you talk a little bit about your experience and I'm sure the work you're doing now to change that dynamic?

Katelyn Rossier (2) 24:04

Yeah, so it's. Egos are very prevalent.'Cause you know, in in design school you're looking at the starchitects and as much as like Frank Geary has really cool architecture, every one of them leaked. So I actually don't like Frank Geary's work'cause I am a very technical architect and I don't want my clients to have leaky buildings. And so it's, you didn't take that extra step, but it's a struggle because in architecture school you're taught there's one path and you wanna be the design lead and control that narrative. But there's actually so many different paths. And so when you're trying to grab hold of that design lead role, and there's not that many of them, it can be very contentious. A battleground to try to get that. So in your career you're always defending yourself and trying to get there. And depending on the personality types, it can get very heated in terms of a conversation to really get to that point. And I've had definitely architects that I just don't like working with'cause I can't put up with their egos and their Archie speak. I'm like, who are you? Stop it. Yeah, just get down to the nuts and bolts. You're talking to an owner that can't even read a 2D floor plan, or you're sending an intern down a rabbit hole to work 30 hours in a two day span because you wanna do with these endless renderings for what? Nothing like. They just think that they can control that narrative and I don't like that. And that's also where people think that the contractor's out to get them. Because their design intent didn't work. And I'm like your design intent probably wasn't buildable and way over budget'cause you didn't pay attention to the client's budget and that's all you worried about is what design you wanted and not what the owner wanted. We are a service and not, out for our own, unless you wanna go be an architect, as developer and, but Studio teaches you. Studio as in school teaches you. You are the designer, the owner doesn't matter. Budget doesn't matter. Gravity doesn't matter. That's, it's those coming over and pulling in. So I've definitely had my difficulties in working with particular people that just don't think that way. I'm always for more simplicity in the design. What are bigger gestures to do? Not doing 10 different pieces of casework. Hey, can we modulize? Modular. Make it modular, so then it's simple and consistent for the staff that moves throughout it. Or do we actually need to demo this space? Do we actually need this high end finish? I question things more to make sure it is more cost effective for the client and easier to build.'cause if it's less labor, then it's less money to the client itself. But those egos are tough and. Then when you throw being a female in the mix, it depends on who you're talking to. And actually some of the more senior female architects are harder for younger female architects to work under.'cause there was a lot more, I don't wanna say grunt work, but those leaders that are female architects now really had a very hard path, but it set up a great work experience for my generation to come through. There are opportunities to go part-time if you start a family or adjusting, but they had to work five times harder to do what the men did back then. And I think we're getting to the point, at least within an architecture firm that's balanced a bit more. But then they feel that, hey, I had to go kill myself to do this, or I had to pull all these all-nighters and my generation starts the, you don't have to do it that way. And even the generation coming outta college right now is really gonna push things on the architecture and engineering industry to, we don't have to kill ourselves to get the job done. So that's where some egos can really play a role in somebody's career and why a lot of people leave.'Cause a lot of people leave jobs or leave the profession because of bad managers, not necessarily because of bad times. So if your manager's calling you at 2:00 AM telling you to go do this design review'cause they don't have boundaries when a client asks for a change, then they don't set those boundaries with you and then you get all these messages at all hours of the night. Being on my own, it's been interesting. I've had some clients come to me saying they've had warnings from contractors about architects when they reach out. I need to go talk to those contractors to figure out all the little warnings that they give and their stories.'Cause I don't wanna go talk about it. But I can see where they get warning signs from. If they get an architect that has no care on the budget and they just wanna design what they wanna design and not what the client wants or, going crazy over their budget or not wanting to work with the contractor or not having clear drawings or not being available. Especially in smaller firms, we get busy. But being able to give somebody a call back if a contractor calls me minus when I'm podcasting, I'm picking up the phone if I need to. Jump off a networking call. I'm jumping off and taking that contractor call, but they know I have a family at night, so it's, I've gotten some calls where they text me first and ask, Hey, I really need to talk to you about this. Do you have time? And I'll say, call me in a half an hour after my daughter goes down to bed. And then we'll have a quick conversation. But I will do that for my contractors.'Cause a lot of times it's, I need that information now. So I'm curious to more know all the warning signs they get from architects. But a recent client that reached out to me. He was told to go find a female architect because we listen a little bit more. We're more empathetic. We tend to have less egos than the male architects that are fighting for that design role. Even if we are a design lead female. And I would agree, there's less egos on the female side. It's more of the, we're trying to prove ourselves to our male counterparts struggle. So that's where sometimes the leadership that's female can be a little bit more intense because they have to try to counterbalance that with other people. They're trying to strive for the same roles. So that's kinda. Big picture, and I'm having fun learning all this stuff now that I'm an owner and just hearing from the clients and it's, what are you hearing about architects? Because a lot, oftentimes the clients don't wanna pay for an architect. They just want a job done. They don't understand that we bring more value than just drawing the drawings. The drawings are the product, but. Especially in residential, I feel more like the therapist on, trying to figure out what you actually want. So think about when you buy a house, how you and your spouse may be fighting on your wants and needs. It's the same thing happens when you build a house. Or if you're doing a workplace for commercial, you'll have different owners of the company want different things or you've got, your managers want private offices, but other managers wanna be out in the open with all their staff. So you have these balances and pros and cons. You have to weigh, you have to balance out the budget. Do you have the money to demo all this or is acoustics really your big thing that you wanna make sure, okay. We have some private rooms that the walls properly go to deck, there's insulation properly in them so you can function and use the space. That's where an architect comes in, minus the coordination between the trades, the engineers, the contractor, all those other different arms that happen. A lot of people just think, I just want you to produce these drawings, and that's it. And so it's really showing the value and so much more that we do as architects along the way.

Jacob Edmond 31:49

Yeah, it's interesting that what you, we touched on about, like being almost like a therapist, and I think that definitely comes up a lot more in the residential side. You're dealing more directly with the owner occupant. And I've always said that really what I learned, at least in undergrad architecture was the design process and of that particularly how to extract from a client. The problem they're trying to solve, not the solution they think is gonna solve their problem.

Katelyn Rossier (2) 32:12

Yeah.

Jacob Edmond 32:13

So many times clients come starting with. already think they have the solution to their problem and they just need an architect to execute it. And a lot of architects might just take that and run with it, and on the residential side it might be like Hey, I saw this design. I really like it. Thinking this is a bastardization of three different styles. And I, but if the client's gonna pay for it, then I'll do it. But it usually, it's. The client starts with, I found this thing, or I want a house, I think it's gonna solve my problem. But they don't know about all the other solutions you might be able to help them offer.

Katelyn Rossier (2) 32:45

Yeah.

Jacob Edmond 32:45

And if you, as the architect can first start by getting to the core of what are you trying to solve here? And let me help you solve it better than you can do it on your own. And I think even on the commercial side is that's a lot of what the trades don't realize is all that process has already happened and the result you're seeing might not be optimized, it is still the result of a lot of compromises to get to a sign off on something that can be built, meets code. The clients are gonna pay for it and meets the needs of the stakeholders by and large, and all of their, all of that process does involve trade-offs and. But what matters at the end of the day really is are we gonna build something that meets code that meets their needs and that they're gonna pay for?

Katelyn Rossier (2) 33:27

Yeah.

Jacob Edmond 33:28

and I think a lot of times a lot of people lose that context.

Katelyn Rossier (2) 33:31

a good commercial story for that is like when we build hospitals, you're dealing with separate user groups of the different nurses and doctors, and each one of them have their own opinion on how workflow is. But oftentimes those conversations, they only see how their current work environment is. Not how it can be approved upon. And so a lot of the times it's showing them solutions. Or oftentimes when we ask for a mockup, I've always do an infusion bay mockup, or while we mock up exam rooms, so then the staff can physically see, touch and move stuff around because it's different and people are afraid of change. And so we're trying to teach there are better ways to function better or you don't have to, in hospitals it's all about the number of steps people take and it's, Hey, if you don't have to go to a whole different piece of cabinetry to go get something and it's all right here where you need it. And we just have to make it a little bit bigger than what you have now. How much faster can you move or be there for the patient? And sometimes they decide not to take our advice and they just want exactly what they have now, just put in a new space and it doesn't function, but we lose the battle. So sometimes what gets in the drillings, I don't even'cause I'm like, ah, there was a better way to do this and I don't think they're gonna like it in the end. And. It's just the decision that was made by the leadership team for that project to move forward with. But those conversations and just getting people to change and think outside the box, that's where architecture education actually does a very good job because we can think differently and process problems and all these different variables. A lot like what AI is doing has a lot what architects do. We're taking a lot of information and since the, synthesizing it into either a room change or a detail or a different component that I think AI's gonna take architects to the next level because then we can synthesize even more information faster so then we can get to solutions and ideas and processing when we don't have to filter through. 20 pages of ideas and options that they wanna go through. It's okay. I can throw that through and help it, form a decision. Then I can skim through it, check, and then I can be more informed to move faster into design options and trying to work through their problems. And sometimes they don't even know those problems exist.

Jacob Edmond 35:52

Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more then specifically about MentorDINO? So you talked about how, the inspiration for starting MentorDINO and that you, you help train architects and teach architects. Can you dive a little bit, deeper into okay, what is MentorDINO? And, a lot of what we talked about, I imagine is the impetus or, related to the work you're doing there. Or can you walk me through what that looks like?

Katelyn Rossier (2) 36:13

Yeah, so MentorDINO is all about trying to fill the gap between education and practice, but also. Gaps that have formed just by differences in how we work. BIM has sped up everything. Owners want things faster. I'm sure even the trades, those construction schedules are really tight, and design schedules get really tight. So we don't have that time to learn and grow project by project and person by person anymore because those people that should be training are in nine hours of meetings all day or on planes traveling to different projects, so they're not there to help train and teach people. So then there's gaps in drawings. They don't notice when something's not gonna work. I also teach, do you know how big a drill is for that screw you're putting in your detail? Can you physically fit a screwdriver in to install it? So I have fun marking up drawings and just post screwdrivers all throughout just to see what people can do and fix and think differently. But MentorDINO is a training platform. So it's the education side and training technical details, but even the basics. What size is a brick? Did you know? A two by four is not actually two inches by four inches? And what's the size of a brick? What size are blocks? Make sure you design masonry in those four eight inch increments and know what they mean. And when it's a odd foot dimension, it's gonna be a four inch dimension after it. Everything that young architects and people coming outta school just don't know that information. But the senior architects learned it in school, so they think it's still taught. So there's a gap in just expectations. Trying to build that foundation back up, but also building in professional development courses. So I've been burned out actually three times in two different ways of burnout.'cause there are different ways you can burn out. So teaching people the basics on burnout,'cause everybody's unique and different and it's noticing it in others. So you can advocate for team members and say, Hey, you really need to go take a vacation. Or I'm worried about you because it's hard to see when you're burned out in yourself. So it's teaching people signs to keep up with that tend to happen to architects throughout their design career or communication strategies. I teach if something's affecting your engineers, you better go do that task first and do that prioritization or let them know if a design change is gonna happen and then do all of your other work on your own time when you can catch up. So it's, anything from their own project management, communication priorities, what to actually show on drawings. So then by the time it gets to your team, you actually have information that's helpful and you're not asking a bunch of questions. And it's all on a platform to help multiple firms, when you're in a firm, they want you to create tools and resources that just help them. A lot of firms find that knowledge base is their specialty and their value, and so it's also teaching architects that their value is actually them as a human being and people wanting to work with them on a project and that they can be a human, they can help you out problem solving. They can be that friend at the end of the day and be a good partner on a project. That knowledge base, every firm should have that knowledge base and we can do even better projects and be more profitable as architects.'cause you don't have to redraw, redraft and fix things. So that's the MentorDINO Academy that I call. And i've got over 95 technical lessons in the academy, and they're all meant to be those micro, fast and dirty lessons. Not meant to, I'm gonna go sit here and learn about brick for an hour. It's, Hey, I need to draw a brick wall. What are the components of brick? What are the types of brick and what's a typical section that I need to understand the components and get it done in 20 minutes? So you then you can go connect with the International Masonry Institute and go talk to a Master Mason over there if you've got particular questions. And so it's connecting them with those trades resources that are there. But there's just too much of them for us to focus on. Who's the best person to reach out to with a question. So I connect with Im I is a great resource. I've pulled them in to give guest lessons within MentorDINO so they know technical detailing, drawing reviews can happen for free with them. And then reaching out to carpenters early. Hey, if you're gonna do a weird wood look thing. Maybe you should go reach out to a carpenter and walk through that project with them so then you can learn how they would do it. So then it's done in the best way. So it's not only teaching details, but the way to do it. A lot of what we talked about throughout this episode and just thinking differently on how we work. The other arm on MentorDINO is the podcast. And that one is more mentorship based. And I just have coffee chat conversations a lot like you do with this one. And it's with professionals in and around the AEC industry, because I try to break down those architect egos and get architects away from other architects, learn from people that are seeing projects from a different direction, that we're collaborating with. Projects we're working with. See the owner side, you don't have to stay a traditional architect path. You pivoted off to start your own woodworking company. Casey was another guest that did the same. I've had others that go a developer route or an owner route, and so there's different ways you can take your career as an architects and the value behind how you think is the true value of an architect and how you problem solve and how that can transcend across the industry. But also not make it so combative either. So that's the two arms of MentorDINO and MentorDINO is actually an acronym. It stands for Mentoring Designers, Innovating New Opportunities, and coming up with a name and everything was hard, but trying to make it meaningful to what we're doing. And then I got to create a little dinosaur logo and having the dinosaur logo cartoons on my LinkedIn and everything is a lot more fun than my head all the time. So it's. That's what I strive to do, and just get firms in so they don't have to create the lean learning resources themselves. It's a lot of time it takes to pull information together. Take time to record it, take time to put in a way that makes sense for people to learn and digest, and also be a reference to go back to when they remembered they took a course on something they don't remember the exact numbers I said. And they can go back and take a look to help them get 80, 90% of the way there and ask the unique questions to the seasoned architects, the principal in charge of their project that knows what the owner wants, or reaching out to partners to get better information. So then by the time the documents go out that they make sense.

Jacob Edmond 43:01

Awesome. That's amazing. And I can see how that's a huge resource.'cause I think. Most industries we see it similarly with us, our clients in millwork is every shop has their own way of doing things and they feel like it's this big secret sauce of theirs, of their standards and stuff. But really largely everybody's doing those things the same, and that's not really their unique value proposition.

Katelyn Rossier (2) 43:22

Yeah.

Jacob Edmond 43:22

Before we wrap up, there's a couple questions I want to ask you about the future. And one is, what do you see changing in the AEC industry over the next five to 10 years?

Katelyn Rossier (2) 43:34

Five to 10. It's not even five, it's just in the current state with everything AI's coming through. On the residential side, I have clients sending me AI renders of their ideas and I have to educate them that it's not a tool, like it's a way to get ideas a lot faster, it doesn't take into account all the parameters. It doesn't, take into account life safety and'cause we're here for the the health and safety of everybody within our community, whether it be a home, a hospital, a business. We understand all those codes. AI is gonna really change how architecture is done. But also how clients use it as well. So as much as architects are worried AI's gonna take our jobs, it's not, but. Owners are using AI to take control of different things, and it's how can you leverage it to disseminate information faster? How can you leverage it to review the proposal you put together versus the RFP requirements? Can you leverage it to create design options faster? Because sometimes that design iteration takes a while, and so I think architects need to learn how to use their words. More in the next couple years because they're gonna be using it to leverage AI tools to work faster and they need to be able to communicate their designs more clearly. And I haven't found an AI bot that likes Archie speak too much. You've gotta be pretty clear for them to understand. So I think that's gonna be a big shift. A lot when BIM came into play and there was a lot of shift in learning curves. That happened. I think the same thing's gonna happen with ai. The problem is that learning issue and training issue in architecture is gonna get worse because people are gonna rely on the AI answers rather than actually knowing the answer themselves or being hypercritical on the response. Was that actually done right for how something is actually buildable, constructed, aligned with the codes, or actually done in a way that's at a good quality and that'll stand the test of time for what a client wants. So I think it's more ai, but AI is, it changes every month and it's really cool to see.'Cause I am a proponent of, I like AI and I like seeing where it can go. You just have to be smart about it and understand the legal side. I know government work, we, you can't put an AI reader on it. So you have to know if your clients are accepting or not accepting of it. But it can help you think through design a little bit faster, but have that warning of it's gonna be even worse, the learning and training side. If you think just using Google to learn architecture and Googling details is rough, it's gonna get even worse with AI as it learns and trains itself. But I think that's gonna be the bigger player that really changes how we work, how we connect. How we disseminate information.'cause there is a lot you can do with it more than generating images or have it read an email for you. It's those that can learn to leverage AI as more than a Google search engine are really the architects and professionals in general that are gonna succeed and show themselves as indispensable within their office.

Jacob Edmond 46:52

Yeah, no, absolutely. I've already seen I'm trying to struggle with the name of it, but I've, there's a startup I was looking at recently that is specifically leveraging AI as a tool that firms can subscribe to, to create like a database of their standards. And the AI will. Within it, be able to identify things like, oh, this is a detail for a wall cavity and it has this type of finish, and make it searchable and reusable better for a large firm to be able to develop a catalog is easier than just a file library,

Katelyn Rossier (2) 47:26

Yeah.

Jacob Edmond 47:27

to search those things. And so I think that's the architects that are able to.'Cause a lot of people look at it and say, oh, when is it gonna be able to draw my whole house plan? So I don't need an architect anymore. And that's not anywhere near

Katelyn Rossier (2) 47:37

Yeah.

Jacob Edmond 47:38

of the things you mentioned. But can those with education can use it as a tool? Just like when Photoshop came out, it's okay, that's a tool that yes can be used poorly, but if leveraged and you know what is capable of, and you know what you're trying to do it, you can use it to support and enable, more efficiencies or as like a prompt of, okay, we're gonna get through the resistance of starting, or maybe we having a better idea, but knowing that the results are always gonna be a trend towards the mean of the data that's fed into it.

Katelyn Rossier (2) 48:08

Yeah it´s fun doing AI plans and then it's like they'll put two toilets and three showers in one bathroom and it's what are you doing? And then it opens up directly to a living space. I'm like, that doesn't make sense. But there's even, there's a lot of tools out there that's more for the contractor side because. The tech companies know that's who has the money as the contractors and not the architects. And it is AI tools to quality review drawings and specifications fast. And so I try to teach architects, even if you're not using that tool, your contractor is. When your drawings go out the door, you almost need to partner with them early and do a review of the set before it hits the streets for bidding. And so it's, you can leverage it to do a crosscheck of your set, but if you're not, understand the contractor is, and it's up to them if they want to actually tell you that there's issues or you're gonna find and be like, all right, I'm gonna write a change order for this and this, and I'm gonna make extra money over here. And so it's gonna put more money in the pockets of the contractors and the trades with those tools. Because when I talk to those companies,'cause I have fun talking to them, it's alright, you're screwing over the design team. How can you help the design team make it so then when the contractor reviews it, you're just catching little things. Not major things or there's red marks all over the place because the drawing set wasn't good quality. So knowing what tools are coming out and how it's either gonna be used to help you or hurt you, I can find tools like that. Putting architecture firms out of business. Because of issues in their drawings and either clients being unhappy or having to do so much extra work because more stuff is being caught and not just fixed on the fly in the field. So there's a lot.

Jacob Edmond 50:02

It's very much being aware everybody in the job market has had to adjust knowing that when you apply for a job, you have to keyword stuff because you're gonna go through a filter that's not a person initially and I think that's important. Like what you just explained is understanding, maybe not how you're using it, but how your customers or people behind you are gonna use it because you, it's gonna affect your business one way or another.

Katelyn Rossier (2) 50:26

Yeah,'cause people are gonna use AI as Google and they use Google as Google. And if you're not putting even proper keywords on your website, so I had a client find me through AI and I literally right now. At the time of this recording, I have one landing page for my architecture firm, and that is really it. I don't know if the MentorDINO stuff has helped with everything I've posted over the years, but they found me through AI and somebody else found me by just searching architect female Pittsburgh. Those were the three words you used and I was the first business to show up on the list and there's a number of female owned architecture firms in Pittsburgh. And the two other pieces above me was like an article from 2019 and then a local organization and it's, I've learned to crosscheck and run things through Google and AI for keyword searches to see what it's searching for when I put up my landing page to get business. And so I'm leveraging tools to help people find me and be more searchable. And if you're not using those tools to crosscheck how people are finding you, then they're not gonna find you and they're gonna find the people who did use those tools.

Jacob Edmond 51:38

Yeah, absolutely. So we talked about what you see changing over the next five to years. On the flip side of that, what do you see staying the same and not really changing, but maintaining constant?

Katelyn Rossier (2) 51:51

A good. I find this a fun example. So as much as architects get frustrated when contractors just wanna do things the way they've always been done. Architects do the same thing on their side with training and growth. And so I think what's not gonna change is people thinking how they went through their careers is how other people need to move through their careers from at least the architect side or how they drafted or put something together is always how it needs to be done. And it's as much as change is difficult and change is hard for everybody, it's the same for architects as much as we guide people through change. We equally struggle with change as much as you know on the construction side, you have your tried and true methods, you know works, and you're gonna be comfortable with that work and be able to have pride in it. You don't want to do something, you're not gonna be worried if it's gonna hold up or there's gonna be issues. So I think that's something that's always. Gonna be there. We're always gonna struggle with change and struggle to do things different as the world around us is changing. What I don't know is if the technology speed now is actually gonna break that down more for people to do it differently. Because I know we're saying things that don't change, but what is changing is the amount of people that are retiring right now on both the trade side, the contractors, the engineers, and the architects. And so that's something that's gonna hit us hard. And if you're gonna stay with that, it's, things aren't changing.'Cause this is how we've always done. You're also gonna hit a really rough patch because the trades aren't gonna save your ass anymore when your details aren't done right. And that senior architect's no longer in the room and you're dealing with architects that maybe haven't seen projects from start to finish, like those senior architects did that hand drafted everything. So it's as much as change is hard and people are gonna fight it the next couple years, if you don't it, it's gonna be rough. But that's, I also say that for engineers, contractors, and the trades, you just, that gap of knowledge is leaving fast.

Jacob Edmond 54:07

Yep. No, I totally agree. We've got the same thing in millwork and it's not being replenished and I think also the combination of, just I think the, the demographics of how many people are in each generation is changing. But also the dynamic of what it's like to come up today is very different than it was when those that are there came up. And it's not appealing for by and large to come into our industry, and so I think that we're very much feeling that across the construction industry, and I think there is a great deal of opportunity for the right young people that are willing to come in. And I fill that void. But it's a very hard sell. Okay.

Katelyn Rossier (2) 54:41

Yeah, and it's just different. I learned a lot when I interviewed Brenna Moore on my podcast. She's a heavy equipment operator, and they had, she had somebody on her team that was a young professional, would never show up to work on time, didn't wanna get the stuff done, and she changed the way she spoke to them and helped build them up. And so then they showed up to work early every day. They were checking in with her to see what she needs done, what else can they do? And they started going above and beyond. And her counterparts were like, what did you do? He was away under a performer. We thought he was just gonna leave and leave the trades. And she's you have to change the way you are teaching the next generation, because if not, they don't put up with that fear that she was raised on. She's you just gotta change your dynamic and it'll keep people in the profession. And if you're gonna not change, because that's how it always was. It's gonna hit your wallets and hit your company.

Jacob Edmond 55:38

Awesome. Katelyn, I really appreciate you coming on and sharing about your work, sharing about MentorDINO. For those who are interested in finding out more, what's the best way for them to reach out or to get more information about the work you're doing?

Katelyn Rossier (2) 55:50

Yeah, so I'm very active on LinkedIn, so you can find me on LinkedIn. Just Katelyn Rossier. I think I simplified my whole name on there'cause of all the, alphabet soup acronyms after it.

Jacob Edmond 56:00

yeah.

Katelyn Rossier (2) 56:00

Or you can find me on the MentorDINO website. Admin@mentordino.com is me. And you can also check out the YouTube channel for the podcast. It's just MentorDINO in terms of the podcast, if you wanna hear stories. And if you're interested in helping me teach I know your listeners are a lot more on the trade side. I am always looking for people who are willing to just pop up a detail and us talk about it. So then I can help take that information and share it to other architects. So if you're interesting in helping mentor give back and help, so design teams are making better drawings for you by the time you see them, definitely reach out to me on either one of those or check out the website. So I,

Jacob Edmond 56:42

Awesome. We will have all those linked in the show notes, so if you're listening, you can just hit down there and hit those links. Thank you so much for coming on and look forward to hopefully having you on again in the future.

Katelyn Rossier (2) 56:51

yeah. Thanks Jacob so much for having me.

Jacob Edmond 56:53

Thank you