AI, CNCs, and the Next Era of Cabinet Manufacturing with Phill Anton

In this episode, host Jacob Edmond sits down with Phil Anton of Phil Anton Consulting to explore the evolution of CNC, Mosaic software, and the future of AI in custom cabinet manufacturing. From cold calling cabinet shops to becoming one of the most trusted voices in the Mosaic community, Phil shares the journey that shaped his expertise. 

Phil walks through his early years in high end architectural millwork, learning woodworking from the ground up, and eventually diving deep into CNC programming using Fusion 360. What began as shop floor experience turned into an obsession with process refinement, troubleshooting, and eliminating production pain points. 

Today, Phil specializes in Mosaic consulting, CNC optimization, MDF door libraries, and now AI driven product development. This conversation dives into the realities of implementing CNC for the first time, the power of community in Mosaic, and why AI will not replace custom cabinet shops but will radically reshape how they operate. 

If you are a shop owner, drafter, CNC operator, or software power user, this episode offers insight into where the industry is headed and how to position yourself for what is coming next. 

About Our Guest 

Phil Anton is the founder of Phil Anton Consulting and a leading consultant in the Mosaic software ecosystem. His background includes years of hands on experience in high end architectural millwork shops, where he developed deep expertise in CNC machining, parametric design, and production troubleshooting. 

Phil transitioned from running CNC machines and managing production to consulting full time, helping cabinet shops refine their workflows, improve their libraries, and eliminate costly bottlenecks. He is also a product developer, building specialized MDF door libraries, closet systems, and AI powered tools designed to integrate with Mosaic. 

Through his training, consulting, and software tools, Phil focuses on one goal, helping shops reduce pain, increase efficiency, and make more money. 
 
Where to Learn More 

Explore Phil’s training, products, and consulting services: 

Phil Anton Consulting
https://philanton.com 

Phill Anton´s LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/phill-anton-663816a3/
Phill Anton Consulting LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/phill-anton-consulting/  

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Transcript

Phill Anton 0:00

it's a really good idea to be in manufacturing. It's a really good idea to be a custom cabinet shop because those are the last jobs that are gonna go. Because if robots could, break out a hand plane or something and sculpt some hand-carved furniture, I don't think humans want that. I think there will always be humans paying other humans for like really nice work,

Jacob Edmond 0:30

welcome back to Verify In Field, everybody. Today, I have an exciting guest with me, Phil Anton of Phil Anton Consulting. Many of you maybe know him from his work with, Mozaik Libraries and, a lot of improvements to that software there. Thanks for joining me today, Phil.

Phill Anton 0:44

Yeah, no problem. Thanks for having me on.

Jacob Edmond 0:47

to get started, would you maybe just give us a little bit of overview of what does your consulting business do and kinda how you came to start this business?

Phill Anton 0:55

Yeah, the origin story. So what I do right now is I do independent consulting for cabinet shops that use Mozaik software. And I specialize on the CNC side, the programming, and then library construction. I started that a few years ago, so now it's, it's evolving now. Three years ago, the consulting was shops have questions, I'll help them draft something up. I would even do drafting for shops three years ago. Now I don't do that. anyways, so yeah the nature of the job has been changing, especially with AI, which I'm sure we'll get into a little bit. So everything's the foundation is still there, but now it's... The question is how do I use AI in my business? So that, that's an interesting one. the way I got started in all this, I got my undergraduate degree at Iowa State for plant biology. That was, 14 years ago. then for some reason, I just had this obsession with becoming a cabinetmaker. Like I just, I knew what I wanted to do. I was pretty heavy into growing plants on the side, tropicals, carnivorous plants. So I was total, a total plant nerd, and I wanted to build growth chambers. So that was my like, there's a little tech involved, but I just wanted to be able to build these things. And then to get that first job, which was in Eastern Iowa, I had to basically call this shop every other Friday for six months just to tell them that I was still interested. 'Cause that was back in the day when you could just call anyone, right? And be like, "I want a job. I want a job. I want a job." And people respected that. I think it could still be done now, right? But anyway, so I was in the oil fields in North Dakota when I got the call that this cabinet shop wanted to hire me finally. So I went back, and they started me on install. They started me kinda in the paint booth and making drawer boxes. So this was a non-CNC shop, I am extremely grateful for the three years I had there because that was my hard knocks, that was my deep end. I got thrown in the deep end. It was amazing because I'll never just work 40 hours a week. I'll work 60. You could pay me for 40, I'll work 60. I was that kind of person, cause I just wanted to learn more and more, and I screwed up everything you could possibly screw up from making drawer boxes. But I would make my own cut list, we'd bring it over to the upcut saw. I would go to the shaper, go to the table saw, use pretty much every tool in the shop that we had to make these drawer boxes, and that I would attribute to basically my foundation of work- woodworking, because before that, I maybe used a table saw twice. So I learned to do woodworking when I was 22, 23. I wasn't-- this generational woodworker, right? And the drawer boxes, the finishing, the install, I worked there for about three years. That was high-end custom, right? Sometimes we'd get into the super high-end architectural custom work, but it wasn't-- it was just regular high-end, right? I didn't get along with my supervisor too much, right? I was like, 24 years old and, didn't understand how the world worked. But I ended up basically, I quit that job. I went across the street, and I worked for them for about two months, and on my lunch break one day, I looked up, I was like, had some friends up in Minneapolis, so I said I basically just Googled high-end architectural millwork shops in Minneapolis, and I found one in particular. So I went up there it was a few weeks later. I just cold called, walked in. I freaked out the owner pretty hard 'cause I was, like, wearing my like, tool pouch, you know, on a Saturday right before New Year, It was, like, super weird, but that's how you get jobs, right? That's what I thought. It's if you want the job, you just go and tell them, "Hey I wanna work really hard. Hire me." And usually it works out, right? It did for me. so anyways, I got the job. Long story short, I worked there for seven-ish years, and they had a CNC. from my foundation in install and finishing and drawer boxes, and of course, I made some cabinets along the way, but now I was thrown in the deep end with the CNC machine and enter Fusion 360. So Fusion 360 was my fir- first CAD software. I had not done any drafting, any technical work, any- anything on the computer before Fusion 360. So keep in mind, this is, 10 years ago when Fusion 360 was in its infancy we still-- I don't know if they still get the black screen in the CAD environment. It's so annoying and laggy. But like great software, super cool, and it was a beautiful thing for me to start learning that. And then I just got I get this like monomania some of my family members call it. I basically hyper-focused on one thing really hard, and CNC was that thing, right? So I basically took it from, I'm cutting out rectangles to I'm doing, 12-foot MDF stack laminations with curves and LEDs and, anything we could think of. Because that shop that I work for, extremely creative. The owner is like, yeah, freak of nature and just crazy designs, and I had to build it. So I got some really unreal experience working there and running the CNC. We got a second CNC, so then I started running the shop as a production manager. And all the while, I just want to like, reiterate that I was only using Fusion up to this point. We were using Cabinet Vision at that shop, but I call myself like Cabinet Vision adjacent, so I really had no experience with it. I knew what the S2M Center was, right? And I knew that was like my number one enemy, the office, and sending me out bad parts. And of course, that's like the anyways, yeah, they weren't actually bad parts. It was just me not knowing how to do my job. but anyways, that's what I kinda learned on is Fusion, Cabinet Vision adjacent, and CNC work. And once we got that second CNC, getting into Rhino, Rhino 3D and Grasshopper. That was my next obsession because I'm like my goal what? Four or five years ago, I always had these little micro goals, right? And this one, for some reason, I wanted to be top 50 in the world at CNC, whatever that means. I just wanna be really good at something. And this would be three-axis machining, so we didn't get... We didn't do any five-axis. We had an aggregate head for fourth axis. I don't know if the CNC stuff means anything to you, but as far as fourth and fi- fifth axis. But anyways we went-- I don't know if I became fi- top 50 in the world, but I achieved my goals of basically creating parametric patterns, and that's how I got into the math of it all and just traveling down all these different rabbit holes with CNC to the point where all of those headaches that you get when you have a CNC We, we fixed them all. We did the whole thing. I knew what it was like to have a down CNC when you don't have two, you don't have a backup. I knew what it was like to solve like, old CNC simultaneous interpolation issues with XYZ, not to get too technical, but basically we did it all. And I learned from it because, I was the one kind of spearheading that. it was an amazing experience. Then left Design and Made. Minneapolis. and I moved to Chicago. So this is how I got into CAD. Like before this, I had only done like technical drawings for really complex rooms, right? Just the weirdest stuff super high end. But I had never actually sat down and drafted a kitchen ever until three years ago, which is probably like really hard for some of my customers to even be like wait, you're like teaching us how to draw rooms and you've never even done it." the interesting part about that is that all of my drafting knowledge didn't come from drafting until I started doing it, right? And then I started to refine very quickly. But what I needed at my core, at the foundation for drafting was actually all this shop experience, all this, all these crazy headaches of is it the software's fault? Is it the CNC's fault? Is it the assembly fault? And I'd have to chase down all these bottlenecks and all these pain points. And I would have to sit there with the drawings for a large job and I'd sit there for three or four hours before it would actually go out to the shop. And I would run my manufacturing checklist and I would painstakingly make sure that everything was gonna be perfect. Was it perfect? No. But we learned how to take it from 80% of the parts are good to 95 to 99. That's like a whole different conversation. But that's where my drafting experience came from, not drafting, but actually just working in the shop. So I'm a huge advocate for cross-training. And when I train drafters, I tell them, I give them the whole spiel and we could probably get into it later. But anyways, so I don't digress too much. I moved to Chicago and I got another job at a cabinet shop, high-end, they were using Mozaik software, right? How I got into Mozaik, I was a shop floor guy. I was there to do the hard pieces, the curved stuff, the curved walnut doors with mesh inlay and, skeleton keyholes. The stuff no one wants to do 'cause it's hard, and that was really nice for me. But then I had a shop from Minnesota hit me up about doing a little consulting work. They needed some help with some parametric fluted objects or something, right? that's when I called Nick Frost, 'cause I had known him from before, and I knew he was doing consulting in that Mozaik space, and I just asked him what I should charge. That's all I did. I just called him up randomly. He answered the phone, him what I should charge, and he said you know what? I am starting a tooling company and I'm getting out of the Mozaik the Mozaik training world. Why don't you learn Mozaik?" And me being me, I was like, "Oh, yeah, definitely." I downloaded it that night, I think. I got the Cadmate, mastery program. I was like, "This is my next monomania." So I'm in super deep, and it was probably two months later that Nick referred me over to some of his overflow or some things that some customers he couldn't get to. And that was, that was obviously the turning point, right? When I started doing this Mozaik,

Jacob Edmond 10:54

had never used Mozaik before that yourself?

Phill Anton 10:58

No, I hadn't even used Cabinet Vision. I hadn't used Microvellum. I hadn't used SketchUp. All I had used was Fusion 360. Yeah, I hadn't used it for two months before I started. And so the interesting part about all of that too is how can you be consulting if you just learned it? And I guess I just explained that. It's all the experience that led up to it, right? All the pain, I keep referring to pain because, man, it's painful. When you get a CNC in the shop for the first time, the amount of things you have to learn, it's no wonder people hire consultants because sometimes I will go into a situation and I don't do onsites as much anymore, but in two hours I can come in and basically relieve two years of pain it's crazy. The amount of-- Because now I've been doing it for three years, so it's super refined, right? I can identify within talking to a shop for about five minutes, I already know the path we're gonna take, and then I'll feel it out, i'll give them one little nugget, and then depending on how they respond to that nugget, we'll go to the next one. And sometimes I just get on this tear where they're nodding and they're happy as hell because I'm telling them things and relating to problems they're having that They had no idea we're so fixable and we're just nailing it, right? That's what I love right now is doing the training, fixing those bottlenecks or at least relating to the companies to get rid of those like massive pain points. You know what I mean?

Jacob Edmond 12:22

S- so ultimately through Nick, you got into Mozaik and Mozaik Consulting, and he had his own story, which, I've had him on the podcast before. If you haven't listened to that episode,

Phill Anton 12:34

Yeah.

Jacob Edmond 12:34

go back and listen to it for the people listening. But so he handed you, "Hey, there's this huge demand. I'm getting out of this. You should learn this," and you dove in and learned it. And so you said early on you used to do shop drawings a- as well as consulting. What did that first year of you went from working in a shop to now you're... Like, did you transition right away to full-time consulting, or were you still working by day in the shop?

Phill Anton 13:01

It was part-time for four months, I'd say. Yeah, I was doing what, if you watch any podcasts on entrepreneurship, one of the biggest pieces of advice is don't quit your day

Jacob Edmond 13:12

Yeah.

Phill Anton 13:13

I I´ve just worked more. And maybe, in the gray area, I may have been working when I shouldn't have. You know what I mean? So it's but all the while still contributing to both sides. And yes, I yeah, I'd say four months was the startup period and then Nick like handing over his customer base or whatever you wanna call it, it was one post on Facebook and once he did that, it wasn't like, Oh, now I'm five weeks booked out and, everything's like coming up roses. It's amazing." It was more like, "Okay buddy, like I passed the baton, but don't drop it," right? And it was one of those things where I just was diehard about doing a good job and studying before everything. So every time I've mentioned this on I think Nick's podcast, but I have the customers basically fill out a little line like, "What are you looking to do during this session?" And I would read that and I would spend at least an hour researching and doing my homework for every hour of training. And it was actually like, it was incredibly stressful. Like out with my wife and I will look back on that moment when I started and I think Nick, I wasn't able to be vulnerable at all on Nick's podcast for some reason. He asked me like, "Was it hard to start out?" And I was like, "No, it was super easy." It's like was not easy at all because Yes, we had some really good moments and I never screwed anything up big time. It was fine. And, but the thing with, Yeah the thing with starting out, reason it was so stressful, I think, was you have all these expectations and these people looking at you like you're s- the expert, and you're almost trying to fill in the shoes of Nick Frost, which is big shoes to fill, right? He's a legend and he was a legendary consultant at that time. anyways, in a way it was easy because I think my personality naturally just floated into it. I started realizing that, these customers they're just like me and I do a good job for them and they keep coming back. And it's I like them and I'm glad they keep coming back, right? And it just kept going and then after the drafting, I leaned in on my expertise in CNC and MDF doors. So if you go on my website, you'll see so many things 'cause I just never stop adding things to my website. But you'll see a lot of MDF door profiles and basically now, fast-forward three years from then the MDF door guy, if you have a door profile you want a quick opinion on, you come to me and say, "Hey, can I do this? Is it smart?" And I might say, "Yeah, it's a great idea. Run away." Or, "Why don't you just trim it out by hand?" Because that inside molding is just too difficult to do if you're doing 100 doors or four doors, right? So yeah, I-- it was extremely hard at the beginning, I stopped having like little micro meltdowns during the day. Like sitting on my couch just like maybe shedding a couple tears and then being like, "Okay, bud, it's time to get back to work." It's fine. It's really overwhelming, but you'll be fine. So I just kept going.

Jacob Edmond 16:15

So fast-forward to today, Phil Anton Consulting you are now the legend in the room for Mozaik in the community, right? As you mentioned, you do sell libraries. Do you still do consulting?

Phill Anton 16:27

Yeah. So partially because of AI and partially just because of my nature, I've-- I'm like I would say, yes, I'm a consultant. Yes, I do training, but now I'm shifting into the product development role. I'm really leaning into this because I realized over the last probably year or so, I'm like really good at it, right? So like I, love it. I absolutely love the product development side, and it's because I think I'm working with all these users and I'm getting down to the core what makes this person learn know, about the UI is preventing this person from being able to figure out what to do next, right? And that's always going in the-- on the back of my mind. And then on top of that, what can I tell them in the fewest words possible, just showing them, how can I keep my customers engaged with what I'm saying? Am I just speeding through it and they're not retaining? I think probably the-- probably took me a year or so to just get to the point where I'm like hyper-aware of how much knowledge that the customer is retaining. Like you have to be aware of that. And sometimes it's hard with the video turned off. I can't see them. It's just a blank screen. So I have like I d- I pick up on audio cues. Every once in a while, like I'll send out a little question because you have some guys that are just like... Or I'll have a group of five, and that's the most nerve-wracking when you have a group of five and they're all silent. Have to probe it with maybe like a joke or something, and if you hear a couple of them laugh, you know you have them, so you just keep going because it's-- that's what I'm, that's what I'm concerned about is, giving value and making sure they're they're with it. I kinda digressed there. I don't remember

Jacob Edmond 18:00

so you said you, you're transitioning into product development, right? What was the first product you shipped? What was the first... 'cause you have the MDF Door Library, but was that what you started with or did you start with other smaller stuff?

Phill Anton 18:12

Yeah. So it started as MDF doors, so one, onesie, twosie just the panel tool group. So you can bring in and then just make it easy for someone to basically buy the product, cut out the door, be happy. Get training if you want, I'll do like a, an MDF door intro. So that's what it started as, and then it started moving into like other downloadable products. So I think my first one was a dowel filler library, and then I rebuilt the entire miter fold library. There's 200 products in there. That was super hard. Basically, all my products take a minimum of 200 hours, I'd say. All like the bigger libraries. And then what was next? Oh the next major one would be the closet library. So I identified that as that's the one, it's-- the closet library is amazing, and the first one I started charging a lot more for. So it's like $2,500, and it's a one-hour setup, but it's the whole kit and caboodle, right? It gives you all the tools you need to succeed and start-- you can make that money back in one project. So that was the third major product. And now, the ones that are in, I've got basically just picking out what is Mozaik not the best at or what do people ask me the most about? So the next natural thing is a curved and arched cabinet library curved and arched cabinets in Mozaik not as easy to do as they would be in Cabinet Vision, right? There's just so many little caveats and things. So I'm working on that. And then now with AI, I'm, so I'm doing the products now I'm building websites, e-commerce websites, and I'm also doing apps, which we gotta get into AI apps. This is like fascinating right now. But my first app that I'm working on is basically it's just a door order portal. So if you were selling doors to the masses or general contractors or whatever, I have a store that goes on your website and now your customers can order doors from you. But here's the fun part about it. It's not just your typical okay, let's put in some dimensions and order doors. It's a 3D visualizer. It's live pricing. It goes straight to optimizer in Mozaik, and you can add mullions, you can change style and rail sizes, you can change designs. There's a live automatic catalog. You can dimension cross-sections. Literally everything that is missing with door ordering in the world is now in this app, right?

Jacob Edmond 20:41

So that is a huge jump, and I imagine it comes, from domain you're seeing.

Phill Anton 20:46

Yeah.

Jacob Edmond 20:46

and I wanna come back to that. A-and before we dive into The-- this latest project in AI. I wanna q- ask you some questions about Mozaik specifically, because that is still the core of your customer base, right? And the core of your experience. So i-i-in, in the market of users, people using Mozaik versus Cabinet Vision or other software, I feel like has blown up in the recent, four or five years. And I'm sure no, in no small part because of you and Nick's work as well as just it seems to scratch an itch or solve a problem differently than the other products on the market. One, accessibility and price. But there is a huge active community of, just the Facebook groups and things. But what it-- from what you've experienced, what does Mozaik do really well that other platforms don't?

Phill Anton 21:36

one would definitely be customer experience or basically it's the forums, it's that Facebook forum. That's the magic. So the fact that you can, Okay, you gotta sign up for Facebook. Who cares? Because the whole point of it is to get on Facebook, get on that Mozaik users group forum, and just see the community. So yes, community would be my answer. That's the right word. It's crazy the amount of knowledge in there and instantaneous answers and just-- you can just feel it from the answers that people love the software and they're genuinely... Right now I think it's, it's like it's come full circle a couple times with a couple different generations of us-users almost, or not full generations. But basically everyone has like a shelf life on that Facebook group. Like you'll be really active for one to 12 months maybe, and then maybe you won't come back, or maybe you'll come back in six months or something. But you have those guys that come back and now they know more because of the community, and it just like loop. They just-- It's just crazy.

Jacob Edmond 22:38

Y-

Phill Anton 22:39

I'd say that's the biggest thing

Jacob Edmond 22:40

That's the thing I've noticed the most, 'cause I'm a... I've been in-- using Microvellum, pretty much my whole millwork career. But, before that, I was in architecture, and it w- and pretty much every other mainstream software in industry has that, a version of that community. I used to frequent, CAD forums and CAD block exchange networks and, Revit and all these other things, and it felt like once I got to millwork, it was like, 15 years ago, there was nothing. There was no online community. There was no resources. It was just, yeah, a bunch of people keeping secrets. So I think that community, I would agree, is the number one thing that, that's crazy. So where that s- where would you say Mozaik falls short or people first run into where they f- struggle with, "I can't figure out how to get it to do this," that They start wondering, "Hey, do I need to make the jump from Mozaik to one of these other platforms?"

Phill Anton 23:28

Yeah. So the interesting thing is that, I have a little bit of experience with Catavision, right? Catavision adjacent, whatever. And Mozaik is-- it's the updates and the upgrades, they just did a version 14. They're constantly improving. I love that and like I s- I, I say that to just, I say that because I don't see many shops going from Mozaik back to the other softwares, and I think it's important to note why. And there's certain users from Catavision that would come to Mozaik and it's just known that they don't do a curved die wall with vertical ribs. You're not gonna get your dados. It can't place them the way you want But it can literally do everything else. So if you can get over that, then you're home. You're in Mozaik land, right? They now support fourth axis for, STM, Homag, and Biesse, and a couple others, I think. But a couple things they don't do well that they're working on is they call it multi-print. So-- And everyone that's used it is duh." Like, We all know. It's fine, but it's time-consuming. So you can whip it into shape. You can get it going. If you wanna put the hours in, you can make it really nice. So if you got a person that's good at that, fine. But it is frustrating to have to spend... if you have a huge submittal, if you gotta spend more than a couple hours on those drawings, it's ugh. If you're spending eight, 10 hours on drawings, it's not

Jacob Edmond 24:54

So Multi-Print is, Mozaik's version of like paper space or presenting your drawings for printing out in 2D, right?

Phill Anton 25:02

Exactly. Yeah. And I-- One, one interesting thing about Mozaik too, I'd say, is that if you go to, if you go

Jacob Edmond 25:09

Yeah

Phill Anton 25:13

or whatever, they're actually very-- I wouldn't use the word loose, but they're just very transparent about their roadmap. So you can say when is multi-print gonna get the update, the facelift that it needs?" And I think it's-- I don't-- I can't say if it's version 15 or 16, but I know it's coming. They know it, right? I think it's important to talk about this because, with Cabinet Vision, it always seemed like when a new update would come out, you get all these people that were so pissed that the UCSs stopped working or something, or they have to do so much, and it's so painful. the version 14 of Mozaik slightly painful for some, just maybe they didn't read the directions right or something genuinely happened, but like small potatoes compared to jumping up from version 11 of Cabinet Vision to 21 or whatever it was, right? So that's another thing is when you could eliminate that pain point of updates, 'cause updates have to happen, it seems like Mozaik is just very smart about how they update, and there's no pain involved. It's very little. Anyone that I updated to 14 had zero problems. Never had problems. So sometimes I'd have people that would, get a training session, update me, and we would do it, and it would go perfectly fine.

Jacob Edmond 26:27

Does Mozaik ship with libraries? I know you provide libraries and you mentioned you

Phill Anton 26:31

yeah

Jacob Edmond 26:32

I assume from there, and I believe CADmate, has sold libraries. But, like, when you just buy Mozaik, does it come with a library or you have the option to buy libraries?

Phill Anton 26:40

You don't have an option to buy any more libraries, just it would be like mine or, some of the competitors. But which would be like Retro

Jacob Edmond 26:49

Okay.

Phill Anton 26:53

which is another fun topic because it's like we're all product developing. We're all doing it a little bit differently and we're staying in different niches for the most part, more or less respecting the overlap. but yes, Mozaik comes with libraries and that's an interesting topic as well. Everything's interesting, but when you start Mozaik, sometimes maybe based on my other podcasts, I'll get people that will reach out and they'll say, "I need you to build out a library for me." The truth is get in Mozaik is actually like pretty decent. What you need is a construction method, not a library, right? You just need someone to say, "Okay, this is how deep your dados are. We're gonna do qualified tenon instead of butt joint 'cause butt joint is done. And then here's how you deal with your materials and blah, blah, blah." But of course, you do have those shops that they work hard on developing their own library and it basically comes down to naming, the naming scheme. So I'll see a lot of shops that will take another catalog and basically just copy it or that's just how they've done it. And I will help with that. The closet library is slightly unique in that runs the gambit, like everything you could need is in there. It actually teaches you how to do closets just by getting that library. So that's why there's a bigger price tag on it and it's that's a whole package. So that's me trying to say, "Okay, I know how people learn and I know how they use Mozaik, so how can I leverage it to make them more money?" And that's what I came up with was that library. And then you do have the Cadmate library, is, it's a little outdated but, on some things, but mostly it just shows you what you can do with Mozaik. It's actually really nice. David Carb built the majority of it and he's a genius and he did a really nice job with it and it's-- I love sending people to the free stuff first. If my product is like too much, I'll just I'll say just get this free one. Start with that. We'll roadmap it

Jacob Edmond 28:47

Yeah.

Phill Anton 28:47

So

Jacob Edmond 28:48

So who would you say that most-- if you had to profile the types of shops that you found that Mozaik is a fit for this, but if you're this type of shop, it's probably not a good fit for you. Have you ever steered anybody away from Mozaik or found somebody that has kinda just thought about it and said, "Hey, it's not..." 'Cause, obviously there's shops that, use Microvellum, use Cabinet Vision or even those, most shops I find are still supplementing. You might have ones that are using a Microvellum plus an Alphacam or plus a Immert or plus a whatever, right? But if you were to say, "Hey, if you're this type of shop, Mozaik a hundred percent would work for you. But

Phill Anton 29:29

Yep.

Jacob Edmond 29:30

if you're this, it wouldn't."

Phill Anton 29:31

Yeah that's really interesting because if-- I would say 30 employees and under Mozaik a really good one for you, a really good software. And-- what I'm noticing now is that I'm starting to work with bigger shops that are using Mozaik, and they're actually using it in tandem while they have the other one

Jacob Edmond 29:47

Yeah.

Phill Anton 29:48

So I had a shop the other day by The Closet Library, and we set it up, and he mentioned that he has 15 routers, and I'm like, "Oh my God, that's crazy." He's just bought Mozaik just so he could use The Closet Library. Like, how cool is that,

Jacob Edmond 30:00

Yeah.

Phill Anton 30:00

So it's almost like Mozaik is perfectly positioned because it can get up to, and I'm sure administration on the Mozaik side would be, like, shaking their head and be like, "No, we can go to-- you can do bigger than that." But what I'm seeing is, 30 employees and under it's a sweet spot, right? And, 10 and under, huge sweet spot because of the price point. and I guess the other things I would go in with that are if you're a smaller shop the only ones I turned away, and I think this would've been pre version 14 it's the amount of, How do I wanna put this? Maybe a tech debt or something. Once you're in really deep with Cabinet Vision, that's when I'm like, "Okay what are you trying to do with Mozaik?" Maybe this isn't a good move because you're in so deep, and you've used it for so long. and I'd say super high-end curved, crazy things. But

Jacob Edmond 30:53

about--

Phill Anton 30:54

I don't

Jacob Edmond 30:54

Yeah

Phill Anton 30:55

help people with those

Jacob Edmond 30:55

so you talked about shop size, you talked a little bit about

Phill Anton 30:58

Yeah.

Jacob Edmond 30:59

product type. What about shop configuration? It sounds if you're using a CNC for everything, great. But what about shops that are into, gantry systems and beam saws and a lot of multifaceted machining processes? How-- does Mozaik... Is it a fit for that?

Phill Anton 31:17

Great question. So since '14 it is, if you have Homag, Biesse or SCM, and I think that-- I think they have a bottleneck right now on how many post-processors they can push out for new machines. I think they need to fix that. But so you're-- if you're part of the Fab, Fab 3 or whatever, then, it's fine. But yeah their main post-processor guy is incredible. He's super smart, amazingly talented, too busy, right? They need to clone him ASAP. But yeah, are certain ones that just aren't compatible, so that's what I would turn away. If it's not compatible, and there's not a big enough demand for that post-processor, it's not-- processor, it's not gonna happen. Just, use something else.

Jacob Edmond 32:01

Okay.

Phill Anton 32:01

Yeah.

Jacob Edmond 32:02

So you-you've touched on there's some shops that kind of run Mozaik in tandem because of what it's good at, but I would think bigger shops that are doing very complex shop drawings. Do you have shops that are still doing their drawings in AutoCAD and then just using Mozaik for production?

Phill Anton 32:19

Yeah, there are some like that. And I guess I should also touch on Microvellum is-- I don't really know that world. I just know that's what the big boys use, it

Jacob Edmond 32:28

Yeah.

Phill Anton 32:29

huge shops that are in Autodesk and using Microvellum. and yeah, it's one of those things where if you've had exposure to something else and it's more comfortable, then you might still be using that. But all the while, just, everyone's trying to solve the double draw, right? Everyone-- We don't want to, we don't wanna be doing, drawing things

Jacob Edmond 32:48

Yeah. But I think-- I know just from experience that everybody Every one of the big players, Microvellum, Cabinet Vision, Mozaik, still struggles with that, and I would say the majority of each client base that is not, deep users is still doing that.

Phill Anton 33:04

Yeah, definitely.

Jacob Edmond 33:05

so changing gears a little bit, but I wanna talk about just your perspective on the market as a whole, I think of all of 'em, if they're Mozaik, there's always this idea of is the grass greener over there? And I hear from people. But I, I always tell them, every single one of those owners, whether they're in Cabinet Vision, Microvellum, Mozaik, is also having that same fear and that same concern and feeling like could this other software solve this better?" But, what are your thoughts or what is your kind of view of, hey, this roll-up of should we be concerned or is this a huge benefit and kinda how that plays into, at least from your perspective with Mozaik, right?

Phill Anton 33:41

I think whenever you kinda inject like a grassroots effort with corporations, it's kinda gets a little bit weird, and I would consider Mozaik like almost grassroots or something, before Syncly came along. And now they have-- I think they would probably say they have a little more corporate vibe in their, for the employees and all that. This will-- it might segue a little bit into AI, but times are changing super fast now. Over the next year or two, like the whole landscape is just gonna change, and I think as long as you're positioned with, a big, bigger company and, more minds behind you, you can start to just start to predict the future and brace yourself for that. But all three of them are like even in my mind as far as, oh, could use any of them and have a successful business, yeah. And I don't see any, besides maybe the prices raised I don't see like any big downsides to Syncly owning Mozaik

Jacob Edmond 34:39

Have there been any

Phill Anton 34:40

their

Jacob Edmond 34:40

positives?

Phill Anton 34:41

paid

Jacob Edmond 34:41

have there been any shifts you have seen of just what's changed post-acquisition, even on the positive side of just

Phill Anton 34:47

Oh, I think just from conversations like with employees at Mozaik, kinda at trade shows or whatever, since I'm not in the meetings obviously, but what I think is kinda happening is like it's maybe a little more regimented what their next move is gonna be, or maybe there's a little more pressure on them. But the thing about Mozaik is that they were so capable before Syncly came along, and now that Syncly is there, I think that their VP Michael Dunphy is like so smart and he leads the pack, right? He's very good at his job. He's super professional. Like he's just a good dude. And so I think that, I don't think they can separate themselves from Syncly at all, and I'm sure Syncly sometimes has to be like yeah, don't do that." Like maybe slap their wrist a little bit

Jacob Edmond 35:33

Yeah.

Phill Anton 35:34

But- I guess what I'm saying is that without Syncly, I think Mozaik could still probably be moving in the same direction 'cause they're smart and they love what they do.

Jacob Edmond 35:43

Now Synchra does have some other things in their portfolio like I believe 2020, right? That, used to be much more prevalent in our space, and it seems like almost they're pushing Mozaik instead now, right?

Phill Anton 35:54

That's their crown jewel.

Jacob Edmond 35:55

yeah. One, have you seen any sh- shops that are making the shift from 2020 or trying to run both? I see a lot of shops that still have designers using 2020, but then they're using something else for production. And they used to push a version of 2020 to be a full-fledged replacement for or a competitor to Microvellum, but it seems like that's kinda gone away.

Phill Anton 36:12

Yeah, I think you have to be on the inside to understand like, the dynamic between all the different softwares, but from the outside looking in, it's oh. And you go to the trade show and you see all these other products that Syncly has, I literally, I don't focus on them for more than like a half a second. It's not even in my mind. I'm just like, "Okay, this is a separate world

Jacob Edmond 36:34

Yeah.

Phill Anton 36:35

and so it´s more or less confusing. It's impressive. Cool, you have all those companies, but I don't know how they play into Mozaik, but the 2020 is an interesting one because you do see that a lot where designers will still be using that, and then the Mozaik have to-- They have an integration, but it's pretty weak 2020 to Mozaik, n- not worth it, I don't

Jacob Edmond 36:54

Okay.

Phill Anton 36:56

it's... Yeah, you just have to redraw it, and it's not a big deal.

Jacob Edmond 37:00

So circling back, you teased this a little bit earlier and I pulled you out.

Phill Anton 37:04

Yeah.

Jacob Edmond 37:04

This... You've evolved now through your product development journey. You've made libraries. You've got all these products which are available today on your website But you're working on some new things and using AI. Can you talk about how, which basically parallel in the same timeframe as you starting your consulting, AI has become a part of our lives. Can you talk about how you personally have started, using AI and how it's evolved in the years to where like it seems like it's at the forefront of your mind right now?

Phill Anton 37:35

Definitely, yeah. It's pretty much eat, sleep, and breathe AI at the moment. It's-- I would break it up into three areas to discuss. Basically, you have automations, you have apps, and then you have just like the bigger picture, so to anyone trying to learn AI right now, because I think it's very confusing and it's moving fast, and it's do I pay this guy on Instagram $300 to put me through this stupid course?" Not me, but just someone else. It's I would start off by saying for the third one, for like overall general picture, where is humanity going with AI? There's this crazy documentary called "The AI Doc" on-- I don't know why it's on Apple. You have to rent it, which is, just weird. But watch it. It will either make you extremely depressed or it will put, light a fire under your ass because it's-- are happening that, we're not gonna be able to change, and you're either with it, either learning AI or you're waiting for someone else to figure it out for you, which is totally fine, or you're denying it and you're gonna have to like, build a cabin out in the woods or something. That's gonna be your future because you just, yeah, you have to do something. which is totally fine as well, right? If you wanna deny it, that's fine. But yeah. So those are the three like classes that are forming in my mind. right now what I'm doing, it was probably... It was probably-- It was last year sometime, it was maybe like eight months ago where there's like a caveat with learning AI. If you wanna go deep and you wanna start getting into vibe coding and you're using Claude Code or using Codex from ChatGPT or something like that, you have to be prepared to go down, I always say like a 40 to 60-hour rabbit hole that could literally fruit nothing except some life experiences, right? Which is always good. It's good to learn what you can't do or it could just rustrate you more. I did that twice before January or February, and I got pretty burnt out 'cause I was like, God it's so hard. Like I know it's powerful, but I'm trying to build apps." And I made this little app called Cab Stacker, and it basically puts all your cabinets from Mozaik into a semi and it tells you, how much space you need. It didn't really work that well. I pushed it out and it's like a classic example of what's happening now and why people are like sick of these half-assed apps that are coming out because it's like, it's not done. Stop, stop putting it out in the world if it's not done. It doesn't work. And I think everyone would agree, if you start using Claude Code to start designing apps, there's this like mania that happens. Like you will get a little manic. You if you don't there's something wrong with you because literally at your fingertips you can create anything you want. It's crazy. it's way harder than you think on the onset. So you get really excited because you're like, "Oh, this is amazing. I can do anything I ever wanted to." And then you hit the real roadblocks. You might realize that, oh, you're not a full stack developer, so launching this type of app is a terrible idea. Or it's going to take more than forty to sixty hours. It's gonna take five hundred to eight hundred hours, and you have to do it solo which is like a whole 'nother discussion of why would you do it by yourself? There's all kinds of reason why. But anyways I'm like getting off the topic. You wanna rein me back

Jacob Edmond 40:51

No, I think that's great. But I think what you're getting at is a good point because I get so many questions from people that have very little software experience, owners that are like, "I don't wanna miss the boat. I hear everybody talking about AI, but I have no clue." It's like a solution and the source of a problem. And what you're describing is, there's some kind of hot topic terms there, like vibe coding. And so it is very powerful. Like I know Claude has come a huge way and

Phill Anton 41:18

yeah.

Jacob Edmond 41:19

superseded a lot of the others, and every month or so it seems there's these monumental shifts. So what was true six months ago is not true today. But A full stuck developer today can move mountains with Claude today, right? They already have the base. It's kinda like when you started with Mozaik, you suddenly added something to your tool belt on top of a very solid foundation, right? So now you are equipped with a new tool that allows you to do more faster, and I think that's what AI is. And I think most people who haven't touched it are like, "Oh, it's like woodworkers who were against CNCs because they were like you're not a real woodworker if you're using a CNC." And it's you still have to understand wood. You still have to understand upcut and downcut and all these concepts of wood grain direction, right? It doesn't suddenly make you a woodworker overnight, but it is a tool that you can add to your tool belt, and similarly, AI. And so I think the other point you were starting to make is that it can open up a world to you that you can go down a rabbit trail that maybe isn't fruitful. It's possible, but maybe isn't quite fruitful. And so you still have to have that big picture of "What am I using this tool for? What direction am I pushing it in?" And you still have to have that human touch of "Am I solving a problem, and is there a strategy behind this? And then what direction am I us- applying these resources, and can I supplement what I'm doing," right? And so I imagine you're a little bit of a classic tech-forward entrepreneur in that you're you're hearing problems, you're finding tools, and "I'm excited to solve this. I'm gonna ship it. Move fast and break things," right? But from that comes experience that you're learning from, so a lot of people, like I'm more of a, "Hey, I wanna be cautious, and I don't wanna wait till it-- I wanna wait till it's perfect to ship it." I'm gonna solve less problems than you are that way, though, right? And so you're okay with the failure of, for example, Cab Stacker, but you learn from that experience, and that volume allows you to solve more problems. I think that's the important thing, is that you may not know what AI can do for you until you take the dive and get into it and start figuring out, "Hey, how can I integrate this into solving problems that I didn't realize maybe it could solve for me?"

Phill Anton 43:28

Yeah. You have to plant the seeds. You have to do a project, you have to go down the rabbit hole so that, you can rest for a couple months and come back and be like, "All right, I'm reinvigorated. Let's go again." Because in January or February, Claude Code exploded. So it was now-- it's now not accidentally deleting database items and doing insane stuff like I didn't tell you to delete my app," and using Lovable and bec- it's just so much better now. So when I got wind of that because someone else in my space was Cab Forge Systems, Justin Leahy up in Canada, he launched one of his apps and I was like, Oh wow, this is actually really good. What, what is going on?" And then I messaged him and he's I'm using Claude Code." He-- didn't ask him too much more, but I was just like that's what I'm gonna start using." And then I went down the rabbit hole that was actually fruiting into many things now. So I started three apps at once, and then I picked one to take to the finish line. And yeah, I would say for... What I'm noticing is there are a lot of-- It just takes a certain kind of person. I've talked to a lot of guys now, they're, they have Codex or they have Claude Code and they're messing around with it and maybe trying to make a parametric object a Mozaik the classic one is everyone is making a CRM system, which is okay, good, so that you can take it to the finish line and figure out what to do and what not to do next. But everyone and their mother is building a CRM those are like, you'll never be able to sell that to the masses. It would just because the established ones are already established. That's my idea anyways. But I think then the other side of the coin is those shops that they don't wanna, they're not gonna get into Claude Code. They're not gonna download VS Code and get all the extensions and mess with MCPs, and then learn what skills are and understand a Claude.md file memory, all these different things It's just not in their wheelhouse. So what they're gonna do is wait for guys like me to figure out a solution to either automate their business or give them a tool that's gonna make them so much money, right? Like that door app that I'm working on right now, it's like literally I can start up a door company in less than a day, and you have the en- everything is set up, the door profiles in Mozaik, the, like the 3D generated model, like your entire list of offerings all in under a day. And this is obviously would be in competition with all Moxie. It's the same thing, but it's only for MDF doors, right? So

Jacob Edmond 46:04

And this is a product

Phill Anton 46:05

to all my...

Jacob Edmond 46:06

that is like people can buy from you today?

Phill Anton 46:08

No, it's not. It'll be in beta and hopefully by the time these things come out, it'll be in

Jacob Edmond 46:12

Okay.

Phill Anton 46:14

So it'd be like a little wait list. Yeah, it's gonna be for like $5,000, I can literally start you up an entire company. So it's probably too cheap, but I think that AI is going to bring down the cost of SaaS software so much that you can't be caught charging too much for these things because it's just not

Jacob Edmond 46:37

Yeah.

Phill Anton 46:37

It's not worth $50,000, or maybe it's worth 50,000, you're gonna make millions on it. But from my perspective, I'm moving light. I'm so low. I'll move on to the next one. I'll keep that one going. And I just, I have a certain amount of customers that are doing MDF doors and I want nothing more than them to just blow up and be able to sell constantly,

Jacob Edmond 46:59

I imagine that complements, like we, we haven't touched on this yet, but you do have on your website the map, and there are a lot of shops that are on there. Are those all only shops that use your libraries, your door libraries?

Phill Anton 47:11

So some of them do. Most of them are shops that I have worked with, or they just want to get their name out there or something. There is a map that I think that gets some guys some

Jacob Edmond 47:22

Yeah.

Phill Anton 47:26

Of shops that I can be like, "Okay, I know them. I can verify that they're good, and then I can refer them to someone," or I can use them in, the future grand plan, which is like undisclosed right now. But there's, it's just it's a good thing to be on the map because I am constantly looking for ways To make people more money. If there was a huge conglomerate of a thousand shops where all these things get sent to the different shops, I would want those people to be a part of it, and would probably say yes, 'cause it's... Yeah, I don't know. It's just cool.

Jacob Edmond 48:03

awesome. What do you see in the next five to 10 years, in light of everything we talked about with AI and what coming out? What do you see changing in the next five to 10 years for our industry?

Phill Anton 48:15

Oh my gosh, five to 10 years? More like to three years. I'm not supposed to talk about I told my wife I wouldn't talk about this. But anyways because it's like right now I've built my business on basically giving away all of the information I have in my head because I think it's a smart business move because I'm in it so deep and I'm so tapped in that I'll just come up with another idea. It doesn't matter. I'm not insecure about sharing everything I know because tomorrow I'll have an idea that will change things, right? But with A- AI, it's almost like slightly a competitive advantage to not mention a couple of the things in my mind. But basically, what will... I'm in- I'm ingesting like so much AI news right now, it's ridiculous. While I'm vibe coding, I've got my phone popped up watching videos from like the accounts that I like, and it's extremely unhealthy. I'm looking at a screen like 20 hours a day or 16 hours a day. It's so bad for you, but I'm fully tapped in. So my opinion right now moving forward is that it's a really good idea to be in manufacturing. It's a really good idea to be a custom cabinet shop because those are the last jobs that are gonna go. Because if robots could, break out a hand plane or something and sculpt some hand-carved furniture, I don't think humans want that. I think there will always be humans paying other humans for like really nice work, that might be a little idealistic, but I also think it's rooted in we're humans, right? So it's a good thing. So I'd say as far as what industry to be in, custom cabinetry is a really good one to be in. Everything that seems to be potentially gonna be gone is like literally anything you can do with a computer, right? So the kind of the analogy that I like, or it's not even really an analogy, but it's basically saying right now if you have 10 engineers After AI, then you're gonna have one engineer that's managing 10 different agents, right? Or 100 different agents. you want, you wanna be the engineer managing all the agents because it's not gonna go away. It's only gonna be-- it's gonna become more and more efficient to the point where it's undeniable. You have to do it to compete. That's my thought on like overall, the industry at large. also s- who do I wanna say next? It's very interesting. Let's take it like smaller scale. So let's talk about a company right now. What can you do with AI? What's that gonna look like in two to five years if you are that custom cabinet shop? I think that, like we were talking about before, you can wait for someone like me to figure it out, but you are going to want to automate parts of your business, whether that's like lead generation and, customer management or even CNC operators, right? If you wanna spend a little extra money, robots will be, unloading the machine. They'll be loading the machine. Robots are farther away, but they're still like, maybe that's a 10-year thing or 20 years. But, Am I answering your question or

Jacob Edmond 51:15

Yeah.

Phill Anton 51:15

I´m Dancing around

Jacob Edmond 51:16

no, totally. For sure. What advice would you give to a shop owner today that is I know I need to be using AI, but I don't know what to do with it."

Phill Anton 51:25

Yeah.

Jacob Edmond 51:26

How do they dive in and, not waste time on building a CRM or something that already exists, but...

Phill Anton 51:34

Yeah.

Jacob Edmond 51:35

with is kinda like they take a shotgun approach of let's use it for everything," when what you've done is you've gone very deep and very targeted in sequence. And so how does an owner kind of evaluate and get to the point where they can say, "Okay, this is what I'm gonna do, and I'm gonna do this one thing and finish it"?

Phill Anton 51:53

Yeah, that's a great question 'cause right now everything is so shiny and there's so much information and so many like directions you can go that it's pretty crippling, right? It's shit, I got a lot of ideas. Which one do I focus on

Jacob Edmond 52:04

Yeah.

Phill Anton 52:05

It's like pretty tough, but... cause I'm trying to think right now, I'm like going through it in my head. I'm thinking about all the customers I work with and what AI would really help with, and I think that I think the answer is that you should definitely be using Claude or ChatGPT just to become comfortable with it. But unless you're making your own thing or trying to make your own automation, then really just wait. Wait for what's gonna have to happen. What will literally need to happen is that Mozaik, Cabinet Vision, and Microvellum will all have AI. The help assistants will be the first thing to come in because the help assistants on a website now are-- some of them are still trash, but if you go on certain websites and you ask a question, if I see the box, I ask a question just to see how good it is. are some AI, and the one I have on my own app, you can ask it a question, it can make changes in the app, it can also highlight the steps that you need to take, and it will guide you through it. No matter what question you ask, it has an answer. So Mozaik doing this hopefully. I don't know, but they'll wanna be doing this. So my answer is that if you don't have the time to go down this weird rabbit hole, either hire someone to do a automation for you so you can just get your feet wet, even if it doesn't really work out just start thinking about it. You have to. You have to engage with it somehow. So if you're not gonna code it yourself, pay someone else to code it for you, or wait for Mozaik or me or Cabinet Vision or whoever to start implementing AI for you because we'd all like to stick with one app, right? I have to build an app because I don't own Mozaik. I can't like, make Mozaik better on my own. So-- But I have chosen to not make my own software. I want it to integrate with Mozaik because I love that community, I love the software, and I like the employees, and I like everyone there. So yeah, just wait. Wait a little bit or, i'm giving like three answers at once. You get it, right? It's like super hard, hard question

Jacob Edmond 54:06

I think what's interesting And if I were to distill it down, is Everything that you're using it for is aimed at solving a core problem of your existing customer base, Also to do it as a supplement or an integration with an existing... like you're not trying to build an entire new, like you said, a whole SaaS software that you're gonna go and sell. And I see this happen a lot with millwork shops as they figure out a pseudo Software solution that works for them, and then they think, "Oh, if this works for me, I should market this and make it its own business." And I think that's a mistake and it's stay true to what got you where you're at. AI is not changing that and having you spin off a whole new business. Solve problems that help your core business that makes you money today, make you more money or do it at less cost. And so I think that's, one, what all the tools that you provide do. "Hey, let me buy the li- buy a library that allows Mozaik to-- and my team to build more product more faster, more efficiently or something I couldn't do before," right? Get the Door library. "Hey, I'm supplementing or integrating with my core business." And so if you find that you're going down this rabbit trail of, "Oh my God, Mozaik is opening-- Or AI is opening up this whole new world. I'm gonna create a whole new business," I would say you're probably going too far off the rails.

Phill Anton 55:29

Yeah. Creating a second business is

Jacob Edmond 55:32

Yeah.

Phill Anton 55:34

Alex Hormozi quite a bit. He's like the, the jack guy that's doing million-dollar deals or hundred million dollar deals, whatever. he basically says, "If you're starting a second company, you're just making everything four times as hard for yourself." That first company has to be able to run

Jacob Edmond 55:49

Yeah.

Phill Anton 55:50

second one, right? So yeah, it's-- the rabbit holes are dangerous and they may not lead to much. Or actually, I think a couple of good examples while you were talking I was thinking of is, maybe try to integrate your own QR system. That would probably be the lowest hanging fruit for using AI and Mozaik. Try to make your own QR system or make your own website if you don't have a website, or, hire me to make your website. You know what I mean? That's the thing.

Jacob Edmond 56:18

So for those that are listening and they're like, "All right, I'm sold. I wanna find out more about Phil," or, "I wanna get one of your libraries," or, "I wanna be a part of this new app that you're building, and I wanna be in the beta," how do people reach out and find out more?

Phill Anton 56:31

Yeah. So if you go to my website, it's philanton.com, one L or two Ls leads to the same place. And basically it's a very easy website. It just guides you through. You can look at courses 'cause I have a whole YouTube series of courses for MDF doors and closets and whatever. You can look at products, you can look at MDF doors, and then I have one icon that's gonna change to apps in the next few weeks. But that will be apps and it's all Basically, I built a platform, so my company is Phil Anton Consulting, but it's turned into the acronym PAC, P-A-C which like all political things aside, it's been a good acronym for me. So going with PAC HQ. PAC Headquarters is basically my platform and that's where all the apps will live. So it's not just door ordering. What comes next after doors? Obviously drawers, right? And then it's I have other ideas, but that's That's-- Yeah, the-- You just go to my website and it's self-explanatory. You can get training with me. The training is getting a little out of control. I'm supposed to raise my prices, but I just can't. I just can't. I don't want to. I don't know what to do about that still, but you can get training with me if you just book like three or four weeks in advance.

Jacob Edmond 57:44

Awesome. Phil, I appreciate you coming on and sharing all of your insights and your stories and your information. We will link all those in our show notes. If you're listening to this, you'll be able to go right down to the show notes and link over to his website and all that he's doing. And I'm excited to see Pack HQ launch.

Phill Anton 58:01

Yeah. For sure, man. Awesome. Thanks for having me.

Jacob Edmond 58:04

Yeah. Thank