From Drafting to Engineering Leadership with Jeff Richard

In this episode, host Jacob Edmond sits down with Jeff Richard, Millwork Engineer at Dovetail Wood and Metal, Executive Secretary of the Texas AWI Chapter, and Technical Chair for Cabinetmaking at Texas SkillsUSA. 

Jeff shares his journey from studying mechanical engineering technology to discovering millwork almost by accident. What started in a residential cabinet shop in Oregon eventually led him into commercial millwork, engineering leadership, CNC manufacturing, and industry volunteer work. Along the way, he discovered that great engineers are not defined by their degrees, but by their willingness to learn, solve problems, and help others grow. 

Together, Jacob and Jeff discuss engineering education, commercial millwork, remote engineering, manufacturing processes, SkillsUSA, AWI, and why investing in the next generation is one of the most rewarding parts of a career. 

About Our Guest 

Jeff Richard is a Millwork Engineer at Dovetail Wood and Metal with nearly two decades of experience in residential and commercial millwork. His background spans drafting, estimating, project management, CNC programming, Cabinet Vision, Microvellum, AutoCAD, and manufacturing engineering. 

Outside of his day job, Jeff serves as Executive Secretary of the Texas AWI Chapter and Technical Chair for Cabinetmaking at Texas SkillsUSA, where he helps develop future talent entering the woodworking and millwork industries. 

His passion for teaching, mentoring, and continuous learning has made him a respected voice within the industry. 
Where to Learn More 

Dovetail Wood and Metal
https://www.dovetailwoodandmetal.com/ 

Texas AWI Chapter
https://texasawi.org/
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/company/texas-awi  

SkillsUSA Texas
https://www.skillsusatx.org/ 

Architectural Woodwork Institute
https://www.awinet.org/ 

Listen to more Verify In Field episodes
https://verifyinfield.com/ 

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Transcript

Jeff Richard 0:00

I have a hard time with knowing whether or not my engineering degree really helped with much more than a foot in the door. And so yeah, I think a lot of it was more in my innate ability, but that's, seems flighty but I think that's maybe a reality. I'm not sure. I would say there was a lot of things that I learned in college, of course, your higher math things like that. But we didn't do any drafting. We didn't do any real engineering software things. Certainly nothing that I can apply to work today.

Jacob Edmond 0:36

Welcome back to Verify and Feel everybody. Today I'm excited to have a great conversation with Jeff Richard, a friend of mine out of Texas. He is a millwork engineer with Dovetail Wood and Metal. He is also the executive secretary for the Texas AWI chapter and the tech chair for cabinet making with Texas Skills USA. And most recently, he joined me and a group of other millwork engineers on the first ever AWI Engineering Summit in a couple of panels there. So Jeff, thank you for taking time to join me today

Jeff Richard 1:07

Thanks. It's an honor

Jacob Edmond 1:09

To get started, would you mind just giving a little bit of your background? How did you first get into millwork?

Jeff Richard 1:14

I started off out of high school. I did a two-year drafting course and uh, went off to Michigan Tech and started there in um, mechanical engineering program. And really I struggled in my first year with a lot of the calculus and whatnot, and so I ended up changing my direction to the technology degree, mechanical engineering technology. So I got my bachelor's in that in 2005 and started looking at trying to get into, the more mechanical related industry jobs, right? Like your go work for Ford. I had an uncle that worked for a company that did emissions testing, things like that. and none of it really panned out, and I talked to one of my uncles who was out in Oregon at a cabinet shop. they were a residential cabinet shop mostly doing face frame cabinets and, I had done wood shop in, in high school and thought, "Yeah, that'd be pretty great." So decided to pull the trigger and on out to Oregon from Michigan and it's been going well ever since really. that company was Valley Cabinet Works in Lebanon, Oregon.

Jacob Edmond 2:21

Okay.

Jeff Richard 2:22

Um- What

Jacob Edmond 2:23

did you first start doing there? What was like your first role or first set of tasks that you were working on?

Jeff Richard 2:28

I would say the first tasks were really just in drafting and estimating, and learning the business, right? I would I did everything from building boxes to, building face frames, building drawer boxes, et cetera to, learning about how products are installed, all that stuff. So a very well-rounded, I think introduction to to millwork. I think that was incredibly helpful, especially now and seeing the, different changes from, I guess that's kinda jumping forward, but, So that, that was the first year or so. and then from there I started as being a project manager, doing everything from the estimates for customers, which were mostly, again, residential customers, finding leads, et cetera and driving it that way. And in that time, I was still doing my own drafting for those projects. We were using a software called Ashlar-Vellum to do the drafting. It's like AutoCAD, but it's a little different. somebody else on the team would take that drawing and input that into Cabinet Vision. After about a year and a half of project management, I really was getting interested in, that Cabinet Vision software. And so I asked, just to try to build a project of my own to see what that was like, and they let me do it. And I really excelled at it, I think I did. And then 2008 came along and the housing market crashed. In 2009, I was looking for a job, reached out on WoodWeb and, got one hit from a company in Houston. They flew me out showed me the town, a wonderful steak dinner. It was pretty good. So they, showed me a good time. I did an example die wall desk in Cabinet Vision for them there. And they were impressed. So I think by the time I got off the plane back in Oregon I already had a job offer and was ready to go

Jacob Edmond 4:22

Nice. and that was working again in Cabinet Vision still?

Jeff Richard 4:26

Yeah.

Jacob Edmond 4:27

So by that time, the first job in the industry is where you really got introduced to drafting and millwork, and then into Cabinet Vision was your first, engineering software, right? And at any of those points you know, what was your exposure to the fabrication, the shop floor, and like how learning how the components come together? What were you... What was your learning curve like from learning what it is that you're drawing to be able to learn how to engineer and put it together in Cabinet Vision, for example?

Jeff Richard 4:56

I would say it was a pretty short curve for myself because I am, again, mechanically minded. I can visualize them, those sort of things in my head. And so Valley Cabinet Works, we were starting to bring on a new a dowel process. We were starting to build our new Euro box line for starting to get into the commercial work aspects and I helped to bring some of those things online. Some of the, interesting issues that we had to work out were simple things like if you space your dowel at, exactly three-eighths off the fence off the table of the dowel machine your material variance is gonna throw off your box joints, right? And so I think that really helped to, kinda solidify how these, interactions with different fasteners, etc. Affect different things, and I think that was pretty important and pivotal in how to work through a problem

Jacob Edmond 5:51

Do you think that your education in, at Michigan Tech prepared you for the kind of thinking, or do you think it was a lot of just your natural kind of your ability to think in those spaces, or a combination of the two?

Jeff Richard 6:04

I have a hard time with knowing whether or not my engineering degree really helped with much more than a foot in the door. And so I think a lot of it was more in my innate ability, but that's, seems flighty but I think that's maybe a reality. I'm not sure. I would say there was a lot of things that I learned in, college, of course, your higher math things like that. But we didn't do any drafting. We didn't do any real engineering software things. Certainly nothing that I can apply to work today. Most of my drafting was in high school. And so that was as I moved through my career, I didn't really need my engineering degree, not in a lot of ways anyway. of the things I did learn were, project management courses and, we did a material engineering, material science kind of class things like that. But again, not a lot of it really applies to millwork engineering

Jacob Edmond 6:59

Yeah. I went to school for architecture, and I think similar to what you expressed is I think a lot of the times it was more just a foot in the door that people saw that and thought, Hey, this is an interesting candidate," or somebody that they... maybe I got chances I wouldn't have without that degree on my resume,

Jeff Richard 7:12

Yeah

Jacob Edmond 7:13

as opposed to what I learned there didn't really, give me a whole lot. And similarly, in architecture school, they didn't really teach us software. We were on our own to learn that. We learned a lot more about the concepts and theory and kinda how to design. I do think, though, that, going through a four-year program like that, you do become somebody that, understands the process of, "Hey, I'm coming in a new environment. I need to be structured and intentional about learning and how do I succeed and excel here." And so I'll... I would say that, one, the way you present yourself. Two, the way you take learning seriously in everything that you do, and I think that is a difference that I see in in our industry is, people that are successful in especially in engineering are people that kind of make a conscious decision about, "Hey, I'm going to take this seriously, and I'm not gonna wait for people to teach me things. I'm gonna go seek out information and seek out solutions." Pair that with your natural innate ability to kinda see and think in 3D. That's something that I haven't figured out how to really teach, but you either have it or you don't.

Jeff Richard 8:13

Yeah.

Jacob Edmond 8:14

And you can tell when people don't. You moved to Houston, and you took a job. And how long did that last? I know you've been through a few different companies now. In each one you've kinda gained a new set of experiences.

Jeff Richard 8:25

I would say Environment Limited was the next company. I was with them for a little over 11 years. that's pretty much been my anchor here in Houston. And things were very good there for many years. I started out as project manager and ended there as a project manager. But there it was effectively a smaller shop, give or take three, four million, annual. Your project managers did all of the engineering did, some limited estimating, had to know about it at a very minimum, right? But at the end of my tenure there, I was very much the Cabinet Vision guru, if you will running that side of the show. I knew how to run the CNC the Wiki CNC out there. And also I helped train several of the operators and things like that. Just having that technical background of one producing the code, and two knowing when things go wrong, it's probably your fault.

Jacob Edmond 9:21

Yeah

Jeff Richard 9:22

you´ll figure that out,

Jacob Edmond 9:22

how instrumental do you think that is, for an engineer versus a drafter having, knowledge and understanding of kind of the output of what they're doing? Obviously, you mentioned even on the dowel machine of understanding and problem-solving Hey, are we gonna be a fixed distance from the fence?" Versus, "Hey, do we vary it every time, and how does that impact our cabinet construction with material thickness?" And now similarly with CNC, you're working through tooling and machining and, like, all that is really what the core of what you're doing in Cabinet Vision or now, Microvellum. But how instrumental was that hands-on experience to your success as an engineer?

Jeff Richard 9:57

I think it was very pivotal. guess I picture myself now as a engineering leader. I don't have the title, but it's a lot of people come to me to ask questions and I try to give them the best answer I can. Having that background knowledge of really the functions of the machinery out there is huge

Jacob Edmond 10:17

And even though you maybe move from shop to shop and maybe they don't have AWIKI, maybe they don't have even Cabinet Vision, right? A lot of that foundational knowledge you have translates, 'cause I've similarly moved from shop to shop and even though you... There's a new learning curve of oh this shop has Biesse or Busellato or different software or whatever it is, totally different tooling, it's still the core concepts there allow you to hit the ground running and very quickly understand. But you gotta get that kinda go through that gauntlet of, having solved those problems and like you said, of okay, but understanding that if something goes wrong, it's probably my fault or how to troubleshoot if it isn't You're very involved now with SkillsUSA. You're the tech chair for cabinetmaking. You're also the executive secretary for Texas AWI chapter. I know you've been very involved with Texas AWI for a long time. At what point did those things start being something you were involved in?

Jeff Richard 11:08

So that was about 10 years ago, give or take vice president of Environment Limited was the vice also of the chapter, of the Texas chapter. and he had a conflict for one of the major board meetings and so he asked me to go in his place, and I said, "All right." I didn't really know what to do. It was, vague, just, go to San Antonio and talk to these people, get to know them. Here's some pointers on some of the guys. They'll chat your ear off. It's great. So that was really my, probably my first time ever really networking, if you will. And so yeah, I met, 1000 people that that I still talk with, if not monthly quarterly every year. So there it was, just attending some meetings here and there as much as I could. And eventually they asked me to join the board which the way that Texas runs is funny, and I don't know if a lot of other chapters do this, but we roll our officers through, a six-year term. And so it's a three-year term, but you can get a second term. And so you just start off as a board member and we love to have manufacturing members be on the board. We love supplier members to be on the board. But generally if you're a manufacturing member, you're probably gonna be asked to be one of the officers, which is your treasurer, vice president, president. And we roll that, so one year you'll be a member, next year you'll be treasurer, start learning the ropes and so on. so toward the end of my six years I had been president for two years and things were starting to decline with getting more board members to, to join. and so at the end of that two years and the end of my term, I had to say I'm sorry, here you go," had to appoint somebody and move on. Meanwhile, I was still in communications with everybody and I want the chapter to do well. but nobody was really taking the reins. And at the same point, we lost our executive secretary. He decided to retire from the chapter handle his business and do that. He had been the executive secretary for 10 years and basically ran everything and kinda left a big of nobody coming behind him to pick up these pieces. Little by little we caught back up and we were able to, get the person in charge of our web resources, to stay on and maintain that. And otherwise it was a lot of the communication was still just continuing to go through me, so eventually it was necessary that somebody take over and just jump in get their hand feet wet and, become executive secretary to handle the operations.

Jacob Edmond 13:52

Okay. And then at what point did SkillsUSA come along?

Jeff Richard 13:56

I was about probably my second year of being on the board. So about second year or so of being involved with Texas AWI. I came in and just to go down and see what was going on, and I volunteered be a judge for a, I believe it was display for SkillsUSA. That's an interesting thing. Texas AWIs volunteers tend to be open to helping out with other contests down there at the Corpus Christi convention

Jacob Edmond 14:26

Okay. And so you're still volunteering with SkillsUSA each year, right?

Jeff Richard 14:31

Yep. Yep

Jacob Edmond 14:32

Yeah. And so that's the Texas SkillsUSA, so that's where students both, I think all the way from high school up through college are competing in cabinetmaking and a lot of other competitions, but you're specifically in the cabinetmaking, right?

Jeff Richard 14:47

Yeah.

Jacob Edmond 14:48

then the winners of that can go on to the National SkillsUSA in Atlanta, right?

Jeff Richard 14:52

Yep. So in Texas we have 13 districts. They have their district contests which I got involved with one year, to, help tools and materials, and basically run the state show at a larger Houston area contest, which had three districts. So the district contests feed the state contest, and then obviously the state contests feed national, right?

Jacob Edmond 15:15

Awesome. So you´ve been at the school for mechanical engineering technology. You ended up out in Oregon working in a cabinet shop where you got introduced to millwork drafting and then Cabinet Vision. You made the move down to Houston. Now you're a millwork project manager and doing engineering and the whole nine yards. So you've got a little bit of experience on the whole kinda life cycle of a project and really the millwork business how projects run.

Jeff Richard 15:40

I guess I should have said that Environment was a commercial shop.

Jacob Edmond 15:44

Okay. So you did both residential and commercial. But at your core, do you consider yourself a millwork engineer? A millwork project... Okay. More so than a millwork project manager, I assume.

Jeff Richard 15:56

yeah. my experience with being a project manager was difficult, I should say. Yeah, when I was with Environment my most comfortable days were when I was just tooling away with Cabinet Vision

Jacob Edmond 16:09

Yeah. And obviously, I imagine there the role of a project manager, at that company was more of an all-in-one and it was very different than what a project manager looks like, I might assume, at Dovetail today, right?

Jeff Richard 16:19

Oh, yeah. Yep

Jacob Edmond 16:20

And so, now you're at Dovetail, now you're working in Microvellum and AutoCAD um, and

Jeff Richard 16:26

Yep.

Jacob Edmond 16:26

but still very much a, a millwork engineer, and now that's your full-time job is just engineering, right?

Jeff Richard 16:32

Correct

Jacob Edmond 16:33

And so what does that role look like today, from what it used to be, right? Now at Dovetail, what does the role of a millwork engineer look like?

Jeff Richard 16:42

Very compartmentalized and I appreciate that. I don't have to get into a lot of the decision-making as far as how, are we gonna use silver hinges or black hinges? That's all taken care of. Drawer guides are, already set in stone. I could just go, that's beautiful. When you can really just nose down, get the work built and get it out to the shop

Jacob Edmond 17:03

And so your job is, "Hey, we've already got it drawn, we've already got it figured out, decisions made. It's, we need to get this out to production," and whatever goes into that, whether it's programming the machines the full engineering, even if it's something that's custom going on the bench. Are you also involved in any buyout-type coordination of, whether it be stone countertops, or is that handled by PMs?

Jeff Richard 17:25

We take care of stone in-house, and stone sort of runs as their own little mini company. They take care of their own drawings

Jacob Edmond 17:32

so I know you guys do metal there as well, so like I know a lot of commercial shops, engineers are still also handling, some of that stuff even though it's not woodworking. It's, "Hey, I might have to do a metal drawing for the metal fab guy," or, "I might have to do, countertop drawings for the stone guy." And so it's both, millwork engineering, I think this is something that people don't, will talk about a lot is more than just wood, and it's more than just the stuff that is going to the CNC or the saw or your factory, right? It's you're A lot of times you're kinda having to figure out something you've never even touched before.

Jeff Richard 18:03

Yeah

Jacob Edmond 18:04

and whether it's looking up specs of custom hardware or coordinating three form or, and there's always new types of products being introduced that we're having to figure out and coordinate. And so if it has to be drawn, and if there needs a drawing to build it or buy it, engineering touches it. But at Dovetail, you you guys are a much larger operation. You do have what a lot of shops don't, which is stone and metal in-house. And so your job is, "Hey, we've got it approved. Get it to production," right?

Jeff Richard 18:32

Yeah, definitely on the metal aspects, metal side of the shop we do a lot more. That was a pretty big learning curve for me for bringing in, gathering the extra knowledge I needed to learn how to build metal structures. You talk about a, bracket you need for holding up a countertop, that's one thing, right? But talk about, how to engineer for a plasma cutter to cut, say a elevator portal. Things like that. All the way up to, a giant stair stringer for, for a huge commercial space like in a corporate lobby. It's very, I wanna say impressive, but it's very interesting work because it's new and fun and, you kinda get to see a lot of this different aspects of the way that buildings are built

Jacob Edmond 19:19

And I imagine having those capabilities in-house changes how you guys might approach certain projects or certain custom build. "Hey, okay I don't need a... Now that we have those abilities in-house, I might do the stairs differently than I would if I was just a regular millworker that doesn't have any of those abilities, and it's, We gotta subcontract it out," right?

Jeff Richard 19:36

Yeah, I would say that the, an example could be like in the past ordered a, a steel post with a arm coming out, that you'd drill into the floor and all that. But it was give them a concept and send it off to the metal guy, whereas now, I can incorporate that into our drawings and, really break it down to what we really need

Jacob Edmond 19:59

So another aspect is you are now remote uh, a remote

Jeff Richard 20:02

Yeah

Jacob Edmond 20:02

engineer, right? So what, You've been both an on-site engineer and now a remote engineer. What unique challenges are there of migrating to being a remote engineer? 'Cause before you used to be able to, you used to run the CNC sometimes yourself. You were very involved in And all that is, coming into a new company like Dovetail that's very established. There's probably a CNC department. There's operators that have already solved all those problems you've solved in the past, and now if you're not on site on any given day, you can't just walk out there and talk to the metal fab guy. What How have you approached the learning curve of being remote and still being effective?

Jeff Richard 20:38

I would say it would be incredibly hard to start off in a remote position. If I were to start this off 20 years ago working remote, I can't imagine. You've gotta be able to, get in the shop, walk the shop, and look at, what's being built, even if it's not your product, right? Just kinda see what's going on. And thankfully, I was given that opportunity, in my formative years to do that. And so some of the difficulties I've had I would say is mostly with communication with the shop or with really anybody that I need information from. So I can't just go up and walk to Joe and say, "Hey, Joe, is, are we really using this laminate for this?" Or whatever. That's I've gotta wait. gotta ask the question directly, via Teams or in Energy or whatever and wait for a response, and that, that's very frustrating. Versus if I know if I was in the shop, I could just go tap him on the shoulder and say, "Hey, what's this?" And get an immediate response within two minutes. So I think that's probably the hardest thing. It's definitely something that's not insurmountable

Jacob Edmond 21:46

Are there any tips or things you've learned on how to, being that you're remote, obviously there is that chasm of "Hey, I'm not just there," both on your part, like it's more difficult for you, but it's also more difficult for the team that's on site to some extent, whereas they could just walk in, out, and, if something you engineered is on the shop floor, that guy can't just walk into the office if he has questions. So is that something that you're conscious about that you've, H- Is there anything you do to try to overcome that to make sure that, hey, if once I release this, I know that the guy on the shop floor can't just come tap me on the shoulder. How do I try to make sure that's not an issue or that I'm more readily available? What are you- what's going through your mind and how have you adapted to that workflow? Whereas in the past you might have relied on putting a note on your release, "Hey, come talk to me about this."

Jeff Richard 22:30

I still do that. I still say, "Hey, reach out to me on Teams. I'm, I'd like to talk with you about this," or whatever, right? I'll add a note to our assembly drawings or whatever. But that's pretty rare that they respond. They probably figure it out and they're like, "Ah, to bother him," but the thing is I... It's not a bother. I'm here at my computer all day long just reach out. But the, some of the things that I do like that, yeah, I'll add a note, come see me or call me. There's obviously, adding more detail, trying to spell out things a little bit more clearly in a, in, for people that have English as a second language potentially. Just kinda keeping that in mind that you can't just go out and say, "No, I meant this." Try to make sure that you're clear in your communication. Yeah, definitely

Jacob Edmond 23:15

Do you more details in your drawings, yeah. Okay. And recently we together were part of the first ever AWI Engineering Summit. What was that like? Obviously us being engineers, that is always a challenge getting up on stage, putting together presentations and, kinda communicating to a large crowd of people. I knew that was a, a new experience and challenge for you, but one that you did. How was that experience for you, and what were your thoughts, kinda going into "Hey, what is this gonna be like? How am I gonna do this?"

Jeff Richard 23:46

I was nervous. I've never been on a stage with 200 people in front of me. So that was I just had to grin and bear it and, try to accept that, I'm with peers. in that respect it was, familiar people mostly. I've seen a lot of these people at convention in October. And I've seen them on Doug Heggs podcast or family gathering. Thank you. lot of these people are very familiar. A lot of the people with AWI, I'm very familiar with them just being on the Texas chapter board that sort of thing. So I felt comfortable once I actually got on stage, I think

Jacob Edmond 24:21

Yeah

Jeff Richard 24:21

I'm trying to say

Jacob Edmond 24:22

And it's something that, is a through line that I see through your entire career is, you've always seems sought out opportunities through AWI, through SkillsUSA, through the Engineering Summit to give back and to help educate, the next generation and get involved in the industry, even if it means getting outside your comfort zone of, hey, it's a lot more comfortable, as you mentioned, like being heads down, getting the work done. But that hasn't stopped you from getting outside of that and being uncomfortable to give back. What is it that drives you to continue to do to seek those opportunities?

Jeff Richard 24:55

I think really when I started getting involved with skills was probably the, a major point, seeing the the students go from, from high school shop class or whatever experience they had to, kinda seeing their light, the light come on when they see the drawings and they start building their cut list and they go, "Oh, that's that. Okay." And then they start cutting things and there's, they're literally putting things together, but, also it's, coming together in their head as well, and you can see that when you're watching them process this. And beyond that, it's, when I'm able to share some technique with with engineering software with some, with one of my coworkers, it's the same thing. I really get a good feeling out of helping enlighten somebody with whatever aspect they're working on

Jacob Edmond 25:45

Do you find that, being involved in AWI, being involved in skills, being involved in all these, things outside of... Because you're not getting paid for this stuff, right? You're volunteering for all this. This is taking time out of your personal life on top of your day job, right? And obviously, I would hope that there's some sort of, you've gotten opportunities you maybe otherwise wouldn't have of hey, now with Dovetail with these different shops have taken a chance on you and flying you out to Houston to take an opportunity, right? Has it just given you more confidence to step into these roles? Has it brought awareness of Jeff Richard in the industry? Oh, people know who I am, and now they're willing to have a conversation with me they otherwise wouldn't. How has that impacted your career development?

Jeff Richard 26:24

I'm not sure. It's separate. I wouldn't say that, i'd be surprised to know that my boss Isaac is in all s- in some of the extra stuff I do, but than to say, "Yeah, he did that," the it's more of a personal fulfillment sort of thing, just, being able to share my knowledge and not keep it in my silo, right? It's just the, sharing the info, sharing, sharing my experiences is fulfilling

Jacob Edmond 26:48

And do you find just through those experiences and the personal fulfillment, but even just the exposure to, more people more personalities, more knowledge has shaped how you are as an individual contributor? Whether it be, hey, I have more perspective of different viewpoints in the business. I've talked to owners, I've talked to project managers, I've talked to shop people. Does that help you be more, Thinking if from your experiences, what advice, would you give to early career drafters and engineers? Would you tell them, "Hey, get involved outside of your day job"?

Jeff Richard 27:23

I would say try it out, yeah. I guess I don't know. I'd have to think about that because it's, Yes, absolutely, for your own personal fulfillment, but I don't know that it's helped me in c- in my career in any way.

Jacob Edmond 27:36

What other advice would you give to those that are, looking at making a career in this? Maybe they're where you were, back in Oregon, right? "Hey I'm gonna take a chance on this and see if I can, dive into woodworking. I've never done it before. Maybe I'm starting as a drafter trying to decide is this a long-term career for me or not?" What advice would you have for somebody in that position?

Jeff Richard 27:58

Really get in, get involved and dig in. Really look at the aspects of, like you're just drawing lines. That's a start, right? But you've gotta think about, the next user of your product, and if that's just drafting details, okay. So what are they gonna need to take from your work to improve their work, right?

Jacob Edmond 28:19

Awesome. Jeff, I appreciate you coming on and sharing your story, and always being willing to give back and educate our industry. And look forward to having you on again in the future Thanks, Jeff.