What Now? Helping Kids Already Struggling with Pornography w/ Geoff Steurer

In this episode, host Tara McCausland and therapist Geoff Steurer discuss principles to help youth already caught in the trap of pornography and other problematic sexual behaviors. The episode focuses on providing guidance to parents on creating a supportive environment where children feel safe discussing their struggles. Geoff emphasizes the importance of a relationship-first approach, validating children's sexual curiosity and modeling self-compassion, relational repair, and open communication. Highlights include the encouragement for  parents to own their own struggles around device use, pornography and sexuality, and teaching discernment over mere avoidance. The powerful impact of connection before correction is emphasized. The conversation also explores when professional help might be necessary, especially in cases of recurring or developing compulsive behavior. This episode underscores the importance of ongoing, open conversations and compassionate guidance in helping children navigate these challenges.

Connect with Geoff at www.geoffsteurer.com

Register for the SA Lifeline Women's Workshop

Chapters

• 0:00 Welcome and Announcements
• 2:06 Introduction to Today's Episode
• 2:43 Meet Geoff Steurer
• 3:34 Starting the Conversation about Youth and Pornography
• 5:11 Creating a Safe Environment for Kids
• 8:37 Parental Reactions and Mistakes
• 10:55 Addressing Device and Content Struggles
• 13:36 Responding to Kids' Confessions
• 22:17 The Importance of Connection Before Correction
• 24:50 Addressing Children's Curiosity About Their Bodies and Sexuality
• 26:01 Validating and Supporting Sexual Curiosity
• 28:17 Teaching Discernment and Emotional Intelligence
• 31:16 The Role of Healthy Relationships in Emotional Regulation
• 36:08 Discussing the Impact of Pornography
• 42:34 When to Seek Professional Help
• 44:42 Encouragement for Parents on the Path to Recovery

Transcript

Introduction: 0:06

This is Pathway to Recovery, an S.A. Lifeline Foundation podcast, featuring hosts Tara McCoslin, who is the S.A. Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families.

Tara McCausland: 0:45

I'm so excited to announce that registration for our annual SA Lifeline Virtual Conference opens later this month. This year's theme is From Surviving to Thriving, Transforming Pain into Purpose. And it's happening November 7th and 8th. We've lined up some phenomenal experts in sexual addiction recovery, betrayal trauma healing, and couple and family healing. You'll get access to insightful presentations, live Q ⁇ As with the experts, a live panel with individuals actively working recovery, and lots of interactive features like polls, downloadable resources, and real-time engagement. So make sure you're signed up for our newsletter at sasifeline.org so you don't miss early bird pricing and all the latest updates. And also, we still have a handful of spots left for our upcoming women's workshop in Mapleton, Utah, happening September 5th and 6th. This is a powerful opportunity for women who've experienced betrayal to come together, learn, and heal. The workshop includes artistic expression, yoga, therapist-led presentations, breath work, and more. It's going to be a beautiful space for connection and restoration. You can register now at salifeline.org. Now let's dive into today's episode. This conversation is a meaningful follow-up to my June interview with Sam Black, where we explored how parents and faith leaders can help youth navigate the challenges of pornography, primarily from a preventative standpoint. But what happens when a child or a teen is already struggling? Well, whether you're a parent, a grandparent, or someone who supports youth in any capacity, I know this conversation will offer eye-opening insight and practical, principle-based guidance to help you move forward with greater clarity, confidence, and compassion. Now, here's a brief intro to our guest. Jeff Steurer is a licensed marriage and family therapist, author, podcaster, and speaker with over 25 years of experience treating couples healing from the impact of sexual betrayal. He's the creator of Courageous Together, a revolutionary online couples betrayal trauma recovery program. He is the co-author of Love You Hate the Porn, Healing a Relationship Damaged by Virtual Infidelity, co-host of the podcast From Crisis to Connection with his wife Jody. He earned degrees from Brigham Young University and Auburn University. And he is certified with APSATS and has advanced training in emotionally focused therapy as well as accelerated resolution trauma therapy. He and his wife of 28 years live in St. George, and they are the parents of four children. You can learn more at uh Jeff Stewart.com. Now to our episode. Thanks for your patience. Welcome to the Pathway to Recovery Podcast. I'm your host, Tara McCauslin, and I'm really excited to have here with me my friend Jeff Steurer. Hey, Geoff. Thanks for being here.

Geoff Steurer: 3:48

Thank you so much. Yeah, so glad to be here. Always a pleasure to talk to you.

Tara McCausland: 3:52

You know, fun fact, actually. So we've been doing Pathway to Recovery for uh year. It's been two years now. Oh, sweet. Anyway, you are our first guest that we are welcoming back. We have never had any repeat therapists. Oh, wow. So you are apparently a special guy.

Geoff Steurer: 4:15

What an honor. Yep. I'm grateful to be back.

Tara McCausland: 4:17

Well, and when I considered this topic, I thought of you because I know you, I know you understand the issues surrounding pornography, problematic sexual behavior, and how it's affecting not just individuals, but also families. And a question that I often get as executive director of SA Lifeline is what do you have for the kids? And how, as parents, can we help our kids who many of them are already struggling with pornography and other behaviors like compulsive masturbation? And we're seeing a lot of sexting happening with the youth. And so I wanted to get into this hard discussion with you, Jeff, because I I trust that you're going to take us to a place that's going to be helpful for parents who need some guidance, not to put any pressure on you.

Geoff Steurer: 5:07

Right. Let's solve this issue even for that.

Tara McCausland: 5:11

Let's start off with first parents want to be helpful to their kids, but very often kids are just too scared to bring these issues to their parents. And so I'm curious on the offset, if you can talk to us about creating an environment where our kids feel safe enough to talk to us about their problems with pornography and other behaviors.

Geoff Steurer: 5:36

Yeah, and I'm going to jump on the other behaviors part first, meaning that I think that if you have a home environment or a relationship with your kid where mistakes are a normal part of life, where parents are regulating their own emotions, where parents are honest about their own mistakes and apologize and model, you know, the redemptive arc of being a human being. And there's a culture in the home where mistakes aren't terminal, mistakes aren't fatal. Then when you have something that is potentially more scary, more shameful, more consequential, perhaps where the stakes feel higher, there will already be somewhat of a culture, a context, a runway even to start walking up to these bigger issues. But if you have a home where your mistakes are never admitted or acknowledged, where your kids' mistakes are overreacted to, and kids are made to feel like they have to be perfect, where they have to get it right, where it's very binary, black and white, and there's no nuance, there's no collaboration, there's no partnership with your kid to solve problems. I'll give you a quick example from just last night in my own home. And I think my daughter will be okay with this. She's just a really cool girl, and she's 16, almost 16, and she wanted to attend a concert that I was immediately uncomfortable with. I don't think the artist is a good fit for what we're trying to do with our own lives and our values and so on. She really loves some of their music. I immediately jumped on all the reasons it wouldn't work, and I was just really reactive around it. And I could see in her face she shut down immediately. And my wife saw what was happening, and um, it was sort of the moment was over, so we got up, kind of started working on dishes, and I was trying to salvage it by asking more questions, and it just wasn't going very well. And my wife pulled me aside and just said, Hey, I saw what happened there. This is something that she needs to know. She didn't do anything wrong by wanting to see this. Maybe you can just own the fact that you overreacted and give her a little space. And so I did. I came back and I said, That was really intense. And I love you, and I was feeling so protective. And I just tried to just shut this down without even having a conversation about it. Long story short, things loosened up. She saw that dad makes mistakes, I have reactions, I get emotional. We opened it up. She ended up doing some of her own research later that night on the artist and actually asked like Chat GPT about the concerts and what they're like. And chat had all these answers, and she's like, this doesn't seem like something I'd want to do. Right? That was a great resolution. I felt really good about that. But here's my point in all of this, why I'm sharing this. As the parent, we absolutely have the power just to have the final word and shut things down. We can do that and we can get away with it for a long time, even with teenagers. There's just something about partnership and respecting them as adults or as young adults or young, budding adults, kids that are trying to figure out how to be independent. And there are daily opportunities that sneak past us where we have an opportunity to really include them in decision making and identifying how they feel and what their values are. And I think these moments get missed a lot. I miss them. They're very easy to, they come disguised as these kinds of conversations, like I shared about this concert. And I think my hope is that I get enough of these right and there's enough chances where she can see that I'm human and working through it and I'm I'm working to be reasonable and slow things down and make space for her. When something bigger, more consequential shows up, perhaps there'll be an opportunity for her to feel like maybe dad's not gonna, you know, pounce on me, dog pile me for struggling with something. So that's a long answer to your question. To me, these conversations are not about pornography, sex, sexting, all the things like that. They're about humanness and how we deal with our struggle to deal with our impulses and our own emotions and things like that.

Tara McCausland: 9:59

That's a great way, actually, to kick this off because you're right. As a parent, we're hopefully working with our kids through the daily struggles.

Geoff Steurer: 10:08

Yeah.

Tara McCausland: 10:08

And we can either make the the decisions, the hard decisions for them and say, this is what we value as a family, and absolutely not. You're not going to be doing this, you're not going to be going to that place. Or it can be this collaborative effort where they feel they have choice, they do have choice. They're allowed to make mistakes. And I like how you put that we own mistakes and and recognize they aren't terminal. I didn't feel that as a child at all. And I won't even put that on my parents. I just think that naturally we tend, especially as children, to be more black and white. Yes. And it needs to be modeled to us that we can give ourselves and others grace. So thank you for starting us off there.

Geoff Steurer: 10:54

Yeah. And maybe I'll add one more thing more, maybe more specifically to the issues around devices and sexual content or inappropriate content. I think it's critical that parents own their own struggles and or hypocrisy around their devices. Because I do believe that children are not stupid. They're absolutely observing the they're they're observing our own struggle with boundaries around devices and how addictive and how much of a struggle it is to get off social media or spend too much time checking work emails or just zoning out on screens or sports or games or whatever. And when we act like there's a different set of rules for us, there's for them, when screen rules don't apply equally. And I'm not talking about kids are get the same privileges as adults. I'm not talking about I'm talking about human connection, interactions, times when we should be tuned in when we're not, times when we're collapsing or zoning out when we really ought to be engaged. If we can have honest dialogues around our own struggles with that and how powerful these devices are, we can normalize and validate the struggle kids with underdeveloped brains are dealing with it. If all of us with fully developed brains struggle with these devices, which we all do, and if you own a smartphone, you're going to struggle with it to one degree or another because they're designed to get our attention. Then the message to our kids is essentially there's nothing wrong with you. This thing wants to pull you in. It's designed to do that. And let's talk together on how to basically work as a team to figure out how to support you because I also am applying a lot of these same things in my own life. That becomes a little more of a level playing field where we're all against the same thing versus I've mastered all of this. What's wrong with you?

Tara McCausland: 12:44

Yes. And again, I think there's so much power as you were talking about, owning our own challenges, our own mistakes around, I mean phone usage, but also owning our own challenges around sexuality and pornography. And I know that that can feel so scary. That's right. Shaming. And we and almost like we don't want to give our kids permission to make the mistake, same mistakes we did. Like we want to guard them from some of those mistakes. But I think in sharing some of those challenges, then again, it it creates this climate of I've made my own mistakes. I've had my own challenges and I'm working through them, and it's okay. I'm still loved and worthy of love. And so are you wherever you're at as you're navigating this.

Geoff Steurer: 13:35

That's right.

Tara McCausland: 13:36

Then, okay, let's say we have brave son or daughter, and I want to make this about children, not just about sons, because more and more our daughters are being challenged by these issues. Um, we have a child that approaches us and they say, I've been looking at pornography for six months. I've been masturbating with the pornography, or I've been sending nudes to my boyfriend. Where do we go from there?

Geoff Steurer: 14:05

If they're brave enough to do that, they need to be commended for that. And that needs to be the initial focus. They they need to understand how important it is what they just did. I can't overstate that. The tendency is to jump into the content too quickly, to talk about perhaps even consequences, or what do we do about this, or where do we go from here? And I would want a parent to zoom out and take this moment to really create a connection with their kid and just say, this speaks so much about your values. This speaks about I mean, if a child is coming forward and owning this, they are tapping into their bravery, they're tapping into their values, they're tapping into their spirit, their soul. And I I want a parent to really not miss that opportunity. Now, everybody's gonna have a struggle, right? We're not always gonna do it perfectly in the moment, but at some point, then or later, that needs to come up because that's the same guide that that child's gonna need to pay attention to long after that conversation's over, when they have the next temptation, when they have the next struggle, and they need to know that they they picked up on something that was protective and they responded to it. So I don't know if you want to see more about that, Tara, but I think that that piece there is so easy to miss because we can get zoned in on the on the what happened, or how far did it go, or um, what does it mean now, or what do we do with your device, or you know, we can sort of treat it like the sky's falling, and we can almost, in a way, treat the child like they're a criminal, or that they've just really done something so awful and serious, and we have to start there. And there's time for all of that other stuff. These things are not urgent in the sense that it's not life or death, nobody's gonna bleed out. There's time to take care of the relationship and the and keep the child intact so that they can then use that same resource to help work together to problem solve. And if you shut that kid down immediately, which again, I'd been guilty of that. I just shared an example of it. It's easy to do. We get reactive, but if you can zone zoom out, we can start the conversation from a way healthier place and really almost have more of a collaboration, if you want to call it that.

Tara McCausland: 16:20

Yeah. Our love for our children will often look like reaction and fear. Totally. Because we don't want them to experience pain. But as you were talking about, like if we can have the presence of mind to zoom out and I don't even want to use the word praise, just tell them how grateful we are, how proud of them we are, that they they had the courage and the the sense of, I don't feel good doing this. And I know I need some support to come forward, come out into the light and seek some help. So I mean, and and that is huge because we know that the development of addiction, it really it the petri dish is isolation, silence, and shame, right? To really develop a full-blown addiction. So if our kids can understand, okay, if I come forward and get help, then we can kind of stop that in its tracks.

Geoff Steurer: 17:16

Absolutely. I don't think praise is too strong of a word. I think it's the right word. And I think maybe the hesitation, understandably, comes from I don't want them to think that I'm okay with what they did. Well, that conversation's gonna happen eventually. What you're praising is their own innate ability to recognize when they're in danger and do something about it. That's what we're teaching them. We're reinforcing that they know how to get themselves to safety, which they're gonna need to do many more times throughout their lives. And they need to know what that feels like and what that voice sounds like, and that it's rewarding in a way to come to a person, to actually connect with a human being around these things. That needs to be as good of an experience as it can. And even if you blow it in that moment and you lose your mind, you can go back and repair that and then do better the next time. But I think it's important to really prepare yourself for this. I I think if parents believe that somehow this won't be their kid, or if they do everything right as a parent, they'll never have a kid that crosses these lines or struggles with these things, then they're basically going to make it about them as a parent. Their own shame as a parent is going to prevent them from giving the child this kind of a response because now the child has just confirmed that they've blown it, that they've ruined their kid, or that they are a failure as a parent. And this is especially true if the parent, one or both of the parents are working through their own problematic sexual behaviors or betrayal trauma, and they they just swore to themselves this would never happen to the next generation. And I just want to say, not because I'm giving everybody permission to go out and cross lines, I'm just saying that this will be this will happen to all the generations from here on out. This is what we swim in every day. So to believe somehow that you could do everything and make sure your kids never ever experience any of this stuff, to me is a setup for a lot of shame and failure for both you and your child. So that response, I think, is something you can rehearse mentally of how am I going to show up in this moment? Because I think that moment matters.

Tara McCausland: 19:28

Yeah. Yeah. I think it matters a lot. And not to put pressure on parents, but the reaction and the response in that moment could be a determining factor for whether that child feels safe enough to ever come back to you again to share real challenges, not necessarily around this issue only, but life's difficulties, right? And we we know that connection is such a powerful aid and protection from developing addictive patterns and other problematic issues, whatever that might be, eating disorders or meaning, we could go on and on. I love that idea of rehearsing for that moment because we will not be able to navigate this well with our child if we pretend that this could never be us. This is the world we're living in.

Geoff Steurer: 20:14

And part of the rehearsal is practicing on the day-to-day mistakes and stumbles that our kids make and that we make. And I, you know, I I often will apologize to my wife for dumb things I do as a husband in front of my daughter on purpose. And my wife, we we have, we just have a culture of repair. We have a culture of of grace, of atonement, of coming together and saying, Yeah, I wish that would have gone differently. Um and there's just a sense that we're all it's okay to make mistakes and it's okay to get it wrong, and it's okay to repair things, and that we can still be close and hurt each other and fix it. And right, you're there's just so the rehearsal isn't just mentally preparing yourself and rehearsing the script of what you'll say when the big moment comes when your kid comes to you and says, I've done these horrible things. No, it's just every day practicing a culture of this, and you'll feel more prepared and your body, your nervous system will feel more attuned to what to do in these moments. And in fact, this may sound totally wild, but in some ways, you'll feel you'll welcome it because the bigger issue here is that we're now in a in a in a healing opportunity instead of just if you've got a kid that feels safe enough to talk to you, not all kids will. So a lot of kids will get caught. Right. So you're not you're not a terrible parent if your kid gets caught. Like that's just right, there's all kinds of ways this goes down. But even if they get caught, and then in that moment they're willing to own up to it and be honest, or they break down, or they they start to want to work through it, you can even praise their willingness to stay engaged in the conversation. You want to make it easy for them to heal and to change. You don't want to make that an extra burden that somehow they owe you something now. That doesn't mean there may not be consequences or there may not be like limits or rules or things that have to be adjusted, but all of that is after the relational stuff is is attended to.

Tara McCausland: 22:17

Yeah. One of my favorite parenting lines, motto, if you will, is connection before correction. And I have to repeat that to myself very often because I know, again, it's that reactivity that's just so innate. We want to correct out of fear, right? Out of a desire, I think, to protect. But when we do that before we connect, it doesn't create this safe environment. So I feel like parents are going to be like, okay, how can I be in this mental space where I can, it's more about the relationship at the base. And then we look later at, okay, how do we start working through some of the consequences and boundaries that need to now be put in place? So let's say, again, we've either had a discovery or we've had a brave child approach us. What now?

Geoff Steurer: 23:10

Like part of the relational repair is to also teach them about themselves. So you, you know, you you've created a safe space where now they can talk and they can learn and they can be open because the relational stuff actually helps their nervous system settle down a little bit. So they can now be students, they can learn a little more from you and feel uh settled into this opportunity to go a different direction. And I think part of that learning that has to happen right out the gate centers around normalizing and affirming in a way that sexual curiosity is normal. It's normal for adults. It's, you know, the the whole sex sells idea, you know. I mean, that we don't escape that once we become adults. That's people are interested in this. It's it's an area that's mysterious, our bodies and the way they work and pleasure and all these things are things that we grapple with for the rest of our lives. And especially when you're young and you're a child and you're trying to figure out how all this all these things work, um, it's a very healthy and normal part of child and and adolescent development. And to believe otherwise or to treat your child otherwise that somehow they're an anomaly or that they're different than other kids, or they're different than you, even, is a real setup for, in some ways, pushing this into the darkness even more. To really normalize bodies and what they do. I just think that bodies are amazing, they're they're miraculous, they're beautiful, and there's there's a lot of systems that are built into our bodies that really are primarily oriented toward pleasure and connection. And we don't want our kids to misunderstand that and to treat those things like there's something wrong with them is so easy to do when we have that fear and reactivity. They get that message, they don't they don't hear the other message, which is this was something that maybe it's a little early for you to understand to know what to do with it, but it will serve you and your relationship really well. I've told this story before in other places, so I don't know if I've ever shared it with you, but when one of our sons was was young, he was probably three or four at bathtub age, right? We're bathing, whatever. He had this question really about his body and wondering like why touching himself felt so good. And and my wife was like, Well, yes, it totally feels good. She was trying to redirect him, and he says, Well, he and he's smart, he's just like, Well, if it feels good, basically I can't touch myself, like who's gonna touch, like, how does this work? Because this and she says, Your wife will touch you there someday. And he said, Oh, okay. And he like let it go, and it was no big deal. And I and I just thought that's the most interesting thing to say to a three-year-old, but it satisfied his curiosity because in his mind the logic was this is really good, naturally, and he was right, and now's not the time, and that's gonna involve somebody else, and you'll do it together. And it really solved that question in that moment. And it's a funny little story we've told. But I think there's a lot there around validating that curiosity, even in somebody that young. And you don't have to hide this from them or sneak up on them or pretend that somehow bodies that that feeling is something that he should just be nervous or scared about because that kind of stuff will drive the behavior underground. It just will. It's not gonna go away. It'll just be it'll just go away from you. And we can have these conversations with our kids. We can talk about these things without shame and without, and we don't have to get into it and get graphic and be age inappropriate. I'm not saying any of that. I'm just saying that we can answer our kids' questions directly and we can support them and let them know that everything that they're feeling and experiencing is good. It's just it's about timing and context and relationships and boundaries, those kinds of things.

Tara McCausland: 26:55

For our listeners, if you haven't listened to the episode with Shalom Leavitt, where we talk about developing healthy sexuality in our families, especially families that have been affected by sexual addiction betrayal trauma, I'd go back and listen to that. And she gives a lot of great insight there. But I I do love that and affirming that sexual curiosity in your kids. Like I remember a story that you told. You talked about having an experience at the pool with your son and pointing out that there was, you know, some girl bikinis or whatever, and that rather than like avoiding that conversation, like I think you took the opportunity to say, Hey, did you notice that lady? And you had this conversation of my eyes are drawn there too, and having this honest conversation about that's how we're wired and that's okay, and what do we do with it now?

Geoff Steurer: 27:46

Yeah.

Tara McCausland: 27:47

And I just thought that was so powerful. Like coming from a family where my parents didn't even want to describe what a concubine was when reading scripture, like it's just phenomenal to me that you had that level of security within yourself and the ability to talk to your child about it. I love that. So affirming that sexual curiosity, what next as we're talking with our child who's again either been discovered or approached us.

Geoff Steurer: 28:17

Yeah, and I I think this is where I think couples, especially that are working through their own healing process and betrayal, have to really check themselves. I have so much compassion for folks that are working through this because the fears they have are so real that their kid will start down a path that will bring them lots of misery, which naturally every parent wants to protect their kids from that. I used to believe probably 20 years ago, when I first started really working with these issues more in depth, I really believed, and the internet was still, you know, maybe 10 years old at that point. I I really believed at some level that we could protect our kids. I just was so naive. I just had no idea. And so now I really feel like the the message now, instead of avoidance with our kids, it's about discernment. It's about teaching them what like internally what it feels like. Again, kind of like we did with in the example of my daughter in the concert, instead of just saying, avoid these places, don't go there, you just you're gonna regret it. Well, she has no idea. But the discernment of look into this deeper, why don't you check it out? Why don't you talk to some people? Why don't you see what it feels? And you can do that whether they're researching a concert in that example, or around understanding how they feel when they see things, right? Whether it's a like the example with the pool that you just shared, or something they see or hear at school or in music, or even if they if they happen to stumble across pornography or somebody sends them something, really it's about teaching critical thinking skills, media literacy, tuning into their own bodies. And again, I I I believe in modeling so much, even just us talking about and acknowledging how things impact us and how they feel. Not from a place of like, oh my gosh, that's so disgusting and evil. Turn that off. I mean, to be honest and just say, like, wow, that was really powerful and so distracting. And I just, I don't really want to have to be pulled in by that. It's a very different conversation, right? Than anybody who wants to see that is so evil, even though inside you're going, like, I really want to see that, but I shouldn't want to see that. And maybe some people have that disgusted reaction. That's fine. Some people don't, but to just be honest about your own reactions can teach them to discern what's happening in their minds and bodies. We're essentially not raising just a bunch of rule followers. We're raising children that are wise, they're emotionally intelligent, they're tuned into their bodies and their spirits, they know how things feel, and they're allowed to make those mistakes. They're allowed to face plant or to struggle with something in the safety of their own relationship with their parents. And we have years and years to work with this. This is not just a one-and-done thing, like, let's hope it all goes well, and then we release them to the wild when they're 18 or 19 and they'll just make wonderful decisions. They need help making those decisions with your support and guidance and making those mistakes and make learning discernment under your guidance. And that's the best place to do it.

Tara McCausland: 31:16

I was listening to a podcast this morning and I think it was Michelle Mays who was speaking, but she was talking about how healthy relational attachment is the best way to regulate our nervous system. Yeah. They were talking about this in in the context of betrayal trauma, why betrayal trauma is so challenging because your primary attachment person has suddenly become right, is disregulating you. Right, is has become the foe, right? The scary person. Um, anyway, but I think in the context of parent and child, if we can maintain that healthy relationship, again, connection before correction, and that we can be that person that they come to regulate with, and then teaching this discernment of how do you feel when you see this or when you engage in this behavior? Like we can even say it might feel really exciting. We are hardwired to be drawn to certain images, but really if you start up, like tell me how you feel, not even just during, but after, and then give them something to compare it to. If you have a healthy relationship with your child where they come, they speak with you, you can rub their feet, and and that feels really safe and really good. And they have something to compare it to. I don't know. Am I talking crazy?

Geoff Steurer: 32:39

No, and I I think what you're doing is you're essentially allowing them to sort through the experiences they're having and contrast those with, you know, it's kind of like junk food versus a really nice home-cooked meal that's healthy and leaves you feeling great. Because generally junk food feels amazing on the front end but terrible on the back end. And most home-cooked, healthy meals generally don't feel as good on the front end, but they you feel amazing afterwards. And it's really about helping them understand those contrasts and those comparisons. That's the only way they can do it. And so it's not, it's not just to take my word for it. And it's it's really about what was that like for you, and to not be afraid to draw out their experiences. And I think we're, I think there's can be a fear out there, and I've had the same fear that this perfect little child that came out unblemished and and this perfect creature that has had no bad experiences, how long can I stave this off until they're starting to be contaminated? But the the truth is, is that all those contaminants and all those things like that aren't just gonna be, aren't gonna just progressively make them and turn them into a serial killer. Like we're gonna we're gonna help them wipe it off. They're gonna learn to wipe it off. They're gonna learn that it doesn't feel good to have the have that on them either. Right? Kids naturally have a sense of something that doesn't feel right or off, and we can help nurture that in them instead of just that natural curiosity. And and kids are very resilient. I think Brene Brown said this is not our first rodeo as humans coming back from from mistakes and disasters and struggle. Like we are wired for struggle. Allowing our kids to do that can feel really scary and feel almost reckless or irresponsible as a parent. And it's but I think when we talk about this, we have to be clear about what we're really saying. We're not saying parent, you know, parenting is just this free-for-all. No, boundaries are essential. Filter, screen limits, accountability systems have to be created thoughtfully, but not reactively, and not from a place of panic and fear, but from a place of relationship. How much do you feel like is too much? How much do you, you know, these limits are boundaries? Uh it these kinds of conversations as kids get older and they're more emotionally mature and they're handling things like these are these are ongoing conversations that are done in relationship with the understanding that kids are going to get some on them. They're going to get some of this stuff on them. And how does it feel for them to get it on them? Do they like it? Do they want to feel something different? These take time and energy, discernment, patience, courage for parents to do these. So much easier just to shut it all down and live in a castle and pretend that your kids are fortified, but that's not how you're going to fortify your kids. It's not going to work that way.

Tara McCausland: 35:22

We know that very often, especially if these behaviors are becoming more compulsive in nature, they're serving a purpose. They're being used as a way to cope, right? I mean, and we know this about addiction that pornography or the other sexual behaviors, they're very powerful and effective coping mechanisms. Obviously, there's a lot of fallout with them, but the behavior makes sense because it's it's serving a purpose. And so when we're talking with our kids, helping them understand the importance of learning good emotional intelligence, the ability to communicate what they're feeling and modeling. How do we move through some of this hard stuff? I'm curious, could you speak to that for a bit?

Geoff Steurer: 36:07

Yeah, I think it's a great question. And I what I would say to that is yeah, don't shy away from talking about what pornography, for we'll just start with pornography, for example, that it's miseducating them, that it's teaching them things that perhaps they may not really want to learn. And you can, I think you can pull the curtain back on that stuff that pornography teaches objectification. Teach them what that is, teach them what exactly what that is, what performance is, and why living in performance in a relationship is a terrible idea and how much anxiety it creates, secrecy, emotional disconnection. Teach them these things about what it promotes. And then also teach them what healthy sexuality and healthy connection looks like, which is about mutual respect and emotional safety and really what it means to care for another person. Let them see what that looks and feels like, and you can check in with them because I don't believe kids can use pornography or act out in these ways and not experience some of the fallout from that. They're gonna feel those things, they're gonna sense that something feels off, and we often have to name or help them organize that. Not in a lecture-y, monologuing way that, you know, where their eyes glaze over, but have these touch points where we have chances to teach them or hey, I'd love to talk with you about this, keep it short, very direct, whatever. But but the distinction between the two is really, really important. Wendy Maltz has a great handout for free on her website, healthysex.com. Uh, the note do you know that it's called Do You Know the Difference Between Healthy Sex and Pornography messages? And that's a great chart. It's a huge table. It has two columns and it's fantastic. I mean, that kind of stuff is really helpful. It's a free download off her website. And then I guess the last thing I would say is that in these conversations around kids that have already seen stuff, I think it's really important just to let them know that that going this direction, these kinds of things, probably has personally affected you in some way. And let them know from a personal point of view, you don't have to get into all the details and all the drama and pull them into your story, but just really be vulnerable and talk about the effect that these things have on real relationships and ways that it maybe has even impacted them. So if a lot of kids sometimes know, I mean, I know that you've talked a lot about your parents and how they've but to talk about how it makes people less available and how maybe you feel more distant and how it creates chaos or heaviness or fear inside of a home and and how these things, if they're carried on, you know, to to allow that to sort of be a real life living example of of the real consequences of these things and to say, man, I'm so glad we're talking about this early before this becomes like a deep lifelong pattern, and you know, and and check in with them and see if this is something that that they can maybe get behind or care about. I I think that last point takes some real discernment and nuance and care and concern based on their age and and what they already know about your story and things like that. But um, I think there can be a lot of power in in letting them know that this this has real life implications instead of just, oh, boys will be boys or kids just do this and it's no big deal. But to say this is something that's gonna be that can be difficult to want to stop throughout your life and it and it has real implications for families. That's like the last thing I would want for you and for your family. They're doing grown-up things, and sometimes you have to have these grown-up conversations in an age-appropriate way with them about it.

Tara McCausland: 39:33

Yeah. And I I really appreciate you speaking to that because we may have many individuals are dealing with this issue if they're listening to this podcast in their marriage, and we may have one partner who wants to speak to their kids about their story and what's happened in their marriage, and maybe the other person, maybe the one struggling with the behavior, doesn't. Would you have any other guidance along those lines of if one of the partners doesn't want to share, but this is becoming an issue in the family, and it's closing off communication about these important topics, like what would you say to them?

Geoff Steurer: 40:07

Yeah, I think you definitely need to be on the same page about it. I I don't think it's a good idea to be split. I think it deserves some other conversation outside of obviously that context, and to understand their fears and worries about why they wouldn't, you know, and and then maybe even agreeing on the way you talk about it. But I find if if it's something that basically brings up so much shame and so much fear in the person that meet, you know, that maybe doesn't want to share, that becomes an invitation for them to look at that and see, because that's probably still holding back their own recovery.

Tara McCausland: 40:37

Oh, yeah.

Geoff Steurer: 40:38

Right. And so it's something that can somewhat, I mean, for lack of a better word, become a little diagnostic, if you will, that there's maybe some more work to do there. But do I think you need to go broadcast your story to everyone who'll listen? No, absolutely not. People are allowed to have privacy, but in families, it's interesting because a lot of a lot of children already are living the fallout from these things, whether they understand it directly or not. And if you already have a kid who's struggling with this, how powerful is it for them to hear and understand that someone they love and respect and admire and count on has also struggled with this and is and is hopefully overcoming it and doing living in a healthier life. But there's that saying, right? Preach from preach from scars, not from wounds. And so if you're in the if you're barely starting your own process and you're not really in a good place and you're you don't want to bleed all over your kid, make sure that you're getting the right help and support and proper care that you need so that you're preaching from a place of strength and support and not turning this into something that will probably be more harmful to your kids. So yeah, there's there's some more care and concern there. There's some details there, but I I really think that erring on the side of just being a human with your kid, even if you have to be discreet or really careful, because you're that's fine. That's fine to let them know that you struggle or that you aren't perfect. The kids aren't fooled. They see it every day, they know you're not perfect.

Tara McCausland: 42:10

Right, right.

Geoff Steurer: 42:11

Like they probably would love for you to admit that. Right.

Tara McCausland: 42:15

In most cases, I feel like we don't have kids that have necessarily developed full-on addiction, right? They haven't had time. But some kids may already be in that classification or they're in the compulsive classification and and it's really becoming a struggle for them to function in healthy ways. When might parents and youth need more support then from perhaps a therapist? What are some indicators that you might suggest some professional help?

Geoff Steurer: 42:43

I think when it becomes something that either the child wants to stop and can't stop, or unfortunately this happens as well, where the the child is getting caught a lot and has no no signs of remorse, no interest in it, then it can become more of a family therapy kind of thing where it it becomes a thing of we need some outside support and some perspective. And we're having somebody that can work with both the child individually and also with the family can be helpful to break through this. But to me, it's about it's about frequency, intensity. Those are probably the keywords there. I believe a lot of parents can do most of this, honestly. I think with there's so many great resources out there. There's so many guides and helps to know how to talk about these things. A lot of the things we've talked about will open up conversations that perhaps you've never been able to have very successfully. Therapy or passing them off to a professional can sometimes alleviate some of the parents' own anxiety around talking about these things. I don't really work with a lot of young people now, but I mostly work with couples. But in the past, I when I was working with a young person, I would always want to get their parents in the room and involved as much as possible because they're the ones that are going to need to be having these conversations long after I'm gone. Right. And I want to use that environment to help them. So see therapy not as something where you drop off your kid to get repaired like the mechanic, and instead where you go in and you treat it like an opportunity to learn more about yourself and your kid and your family and how to have these conversations that probably you were never taught to have. And you can a good therapist can help you facilitate those in a really effective, safe way so that you can go out and succeed and have confidence in your ability to support and love and lead your child toward a better future.

Tara McCausland: 44:41

Perfect. Thank you. Speaking to those who are listening, many of them are working their own recovery and just starting, and others have been working this path of recovery for a while. What is your counsel to them?

Geoff Steurer: 44:53

Well, I would just say that your child's struggles don't today don't define their future automatically. And they don't define your future automatically. Recognize that healing is built through connection, healing is built through openness. So I want you just to have the confidence and courage to stay in these conversations, to keep coming back, to be brave and to bring up the thing you're scared to bring up, and to trust that your child is looking to you at some level to help them, even though they may not have the words for that. I hear more pain in my office from people whose parents didn't care than whose parents were messy and tried to get something going. It's more painful to be ignored, to be abandoned, than to have a messy parent trying to figure this out. So allow yourself to make this messy, get in there, ask questions, try and figure it out. There is a connection in there that is very endearing and very bonding for children versus feeling like they don't matter enough to bring these things up. So please err on the side of connection, be brave, and recognize that this isn't a life sentence. Just keep talking and connecting and and I think you'll be surprised.

Tara McCausland: 46:06

Thank you. Well, this has been so good, Jeff. And thank you again for your time, your willingness to come back.

Geoff Steurer: 46:14

Anytime. Anytime.

Tara McCausland: 46:16

So grateful for you. And I'll put in our show notes how our listeners can connect with you if they would like to. But thanks again for being here. So grateful for you.

Introduction: 46:25

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