Navigating the Double Betrayal of Sexual and Financial Infidelity w/ Debra Kaplan

In this episode of the Pathway to Recovery podcast, host Tara McCausland speaks to licensed therapist Debra Kaplan about the intricate link between financial infidelity and sexual betrayal, emphasizing the psychological and emotional impact on individuals and families. They explore the importance of a financial therapeutic disclosure, financial literacy for the betrayed partner, and the significance of establishing financial safety and transparency in order to heal relationships. The conversation is enriched with personal anecdotes and practical advice for both individuals and couples navigating the complex terrain of this double betrayal.

00:00 Introduction and Conference Invitation
01:54 Meet Deborah Kaplan: From Wall Street to Therapy
03:21 The Intersection of Money and Emotions
06:49 Personal Stories and Financial Strain
11:56 Understanding Financial Infidelity
13:22 Recognizing Financial Secrecy in Relationships
18:11 Empowerment Through Financial Literacy
25:23 Exploring the Emotional Impact of Betrayal
26:05 Financial Betrayal: A Deep Wound
27:01 Personal Stories of Betrayal and Recovery
29:56 Therapeutic Disclosure and Financial Secrets
32:47 Rebuilding Trust and Financial Stability
43:00 Teaching Financial Literacy to Children
46:46 Final Thoughts and Advice for Recovery

Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction and Conference Invitation
• 1:54 Meet Deborah Kaplan: From Wall Street to Therapy
• 3:21 The Intersection of Money and Emotions
• 6:49 Personal Stories and Financial Strain
• 11:56 Understanding Financial Infidelity
• 13:22 Recognizing Financial Secrecy in Relationships
• 18:11 Empowerment Through Financial Literacy
• 25:23 Exploring the Emotional Impact of Betrayal
• 26:05 Financial Betrayal: A Deeper Wound
• 27:01 Personal Stories of Betrayal and Recovery
• 29:56 Therapeutic Disclosure and Financial Secrets
• 32:47 Rebuilding Trust and Financial Stability
• 43:00 Teaching Financial Literacy to Children
• 46:46 Final Thoughts and Advice for Recovery

Transcript

Intro: 0:06

This is Pathway to Recovery, an S.A. Lifeline Foundation podcast, featuring hosts Tara McCausland, who is the S.A. Lifeline Executive Director, and Justin B., a sex addict living in long-term recovery. We have conversations with experts and individuals who understand the pathway to healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma because we believe that recovering individuals leads to the healing of families.

Tara McCausland: 0:41

Are you tired of just surviving after betrayal or addiction? Or do you feel stuck in the pain, unsure how to move forward? Or have you wondered if true healing and even thriving is possible for you? Well, this could be a turning point. I wanted to personally invite you to join us for the 2025 SA Lifeline Virtual Conference, November 7th and 8th online. Our theme this year is From Surviving to Thriving, Turning Pain into Purpose. And at this conference, you'll learn from top experts in sexual addiction and betrayal trauma. You'll have the opportunity to ask your questions of these experts and get answers. You'll be able to connect with people who understand exactly what you're going through. If you're a clinician, you can earn continuing education credits while gaining life-changing insight. But most of all, you'll find momentum. You'll discover tools and hope to take the next step in your healing journey. So, friends, come join us. Your healing is worth the investment. Set aside the time, be intentional, come heal with us. Hope to see you there November 7th and 8th. You can register on salifeline.org. Now to the show. Deborah Kaplan is a licensed therapist, author, and speaker specializing in sexual compulsivity, money, work, and relationship dynamics. After a successful career on Wall Street, where issues regarding sex, money, and power are legendary, Ms. Kaplan merged her fascination with narcissism, sex, power, and control with her studies in psychology. Deborah is a co-editor of Reflections on the History of the Sex Addiction Field. She is the author of For Love and Money: Exploring Sexual and Financial Betrayal in Relationships and Battle of the Titans, Mastering the Forces of Sex, Money, and Power in Relationships. In 2023, Ms. Kaplan released Coupleship Inc. from Financial Conflict to Financial Intimacy. Deborah lectures nationally and provides consultation to a global community. Welcome to the Pathway to Recovery Podcast. I am your host, Tara McCausland, and I'm really thrilled to have here with me Deborah Kaplan. So good to meet you, Deborah.

Deborah Kaplan: 2:54

Same here, Tara. It's an honor, pleasure to be here and talk about this topic that is so important and often not really addressed.

Tara McCausland: 3:02

I've read your bio, so our listeners know a little bit about you, but that's really an interesting segue from Wall Street to therapy. Those are two really high stress jobs. Can I ask why from Wall Street to therapy?

Deborah Kaplan: 3:16

Well, how about if I answer the why? Yeah. Um, the why and the how. So as a financial individual, I worked on Wall Street for many years. And one of the last positions I held was as a trader. I'm a commodity option trader, and I actually still trade today. I trade off what was considered off-the-floor trading. People used to refer to it as day trading, but because technology has changed and trading platforms have changed. So I'm still a commodity option trader. Uh, however, in the days that I was trading on the commodity floor in New York, in the World Trade Center, at the time, that trading space, because there was no division between markets, you could walk from one area into another. And that was when uh Saddam Hussein was uh it was not yet the invasion of Kuwait. And Terek Aziz, who was the emissary, met with James Baker in Geneva. And my market, I was trading the softs, I was trading cocoa sugar, orange juice. Um, my market would close at 210, literally 210 every day. And the oil complex would trade and close somewhere around three o'clock. But everybody in the world was holding their breath to see what would become of the Geneva Peace Accords. And everyone was waiting upon the outcome of that meeting. And at whatever time in Europe it was, it was around midday in New York, and the oil complex was still. They were holding their breath, waiting. My market had just closed, and the oil traders were kind of mulling around and kind of going about their business, and then all of a sudden the news broke. Now, we have cell phones today, we have news that's instantaneous right into our hand. But at the time, the ticker would come up on the board, and regrettably was the first word that James Baker uttered. And that rocked the world because it meant that there was no peace of cord and there would be an invasion. And from that moment, the markets went berserk and traders were flying in from all corners of the space. And I recognized just how impactful emotions and how that really, even though money doesn't have emotion, and that economics doesn't have emotion, but very much is impacted by m by our emotions and the meaning of money. And it was in that very moment that I recognized when my days of trading are over on the floor, I'm fascinated with the psychology of money. And that is the segue to when I began to realize I didn't know how, I didn't know where or when, but that I was fascinated by people's emotions about money and their relationship to money. And ultimately one day became a therapist and started working with couples and individuals. And couples and people would come in and start arguing about many things, certainly around when I was working with sex addiction, sexual betrayal. And then money started creeping into the conversation and a full circle moment came when I recognized that, ah, money. And that the financial betrayal that comes in underneath or along with the sexual betrayal is something that was never addressed or talked about. And so I brought those two worlds together.

Tara McCausland: 6:49

Well, I'll say to our listeners, so I found Deborah as I was listening to another podcast and found the conversation so enlightening and helpful because as the daughter of a recovering addict, I knew, even as a youth, even though I didn't really understand the depths of my father's problem, I didn't really understand that he had a sex addiction. I knew I was disconnected emotionally from him. And I very much understood that we were dealing with some serious financial strain and instability in our family. And that affected me greatly as a teen. From about the ages of 12 to 18, I vividly remember one day, probably as a 17-year-old, I was sitting in the kitchen with my mom. This was a time of a lot of uh job shifting for my dad and hard times financially for us. But she opened the kitchen cupboards and she said, I don't know where we're going to get money for groceries this week. I remember exactly where I was sitting. I remember the look on her face and the weight that I felt as a 17-year-old thinking, what do we do? Can I help my parents? And I had a conversation with my parents prior to this. And my dad was very empathetic to the fact that he put us through some hard things. And that was not just because of the sexual infidelity, but because of his addiction, he had made very poor financial decisions. So this hits home close to me, even for a daughter, not just a partner.

Deborah Kaplan: 8:12

Thank you for sharing that, because your story is so really relatable for many of the listeners. Because when there is that disconnect in the air, children don't know what to make of it. They don't know what's going on behind closed doors. And even if they can hear it, and even if they are aware, because the in some cases violence comes and tumbles out from behind closed doors, money is what gets really the brunt of the experience in a child's life, because the child has no power. All they know is their toys, they know their stability. We're so powerless to affect change in our life. So when you're sharing the story of your mom's opening up the cabinet, so what are we going to do? Your mom has some capacity to act upon that. As a 17-year-old, you have a little bit more than a child does, for sure. But in many ways, you are rendered powerless and stuck in a position of not being able to perhaps change the situation. Well, that moment, regardless of what created it or influenced it, has galvanized a belief or a behavior for you in your relationship with money. And I suppose, without going into personals, because I'm not going to ask you, but I asked the listener to think of the story, the legacy of what are relationships and experiences related to money, what is that legacy? When I work with clients, I was working with a client just yesterday, and he was talking about how he gets very controlling around money when his wife is spending this money or his wife's spending that, or his kids are spending. And I said to him, Well, what is it that comes up for you? And he said, Well, I just I get very angry. Now, anger is a very natural, normal human emotion. But in that moment, I believed it was something below that, which is abject fear. He had no control of the money. And it was that conversation, Terror, that he began to tell me just how impoverished they were. But here's the kicker. It was needless impoverishment. It was a reaction of the parents' relationship to money that created the scarcity that greatly impacted this child at the time. So that the scarcity was real, but when he became an adult and is now able to look at it through different lens, it was unnecessary. But it was that scrupulosity around over control that created scarcity. And it gets very convoluted, and we're we're we're here more talking about betrayal. But yes, that's money takes on a life of its own in addition to the sexual betrayal.

Tara McCausland: 11:10

And we often talk about power imbalances or the power differential in a relationship that's been affected by sexual addiction. But I think we don't often think about that in terms of the financial power imbalance and how that particularly affects women, because generally women, they're not the primary breadwinner. And generally they're the ones that are being betrayed. And so I wanted to bring up this conversation because I I hear it more often than than I would like to say, Deborah, about how women feel stuck. They feel a great deal of fear, and they want to heal in their relationship, but there is this power and balance with money. They don't feel safe. And even if they wanted to leave, could they? So we're kind of getting ahead of ourselves. But let's let me just pose a question here. We talk a lot about sexual infidelity, but what is financial infidelity? And what are some common examples of that in a relationship?

Deborah Kaplan: 12:05

Financial infidelity is the holding of keeping of secrets and behaviors regarding money. So an example of that might be spending, purchasing, and not sharing that information with a partner if it's in a relationship. Now, of course, if we're living by ourselves, the only person that we are betraying is ourselves. So let's presume that in that regard it's a relationship. Opening up accounts, credit cards, and other debt that the partner does not know about. In a worst case scenario, changing the beneficiaries or taking out lines of credit or changing the names on an account, a bank account, um, making it a or, like a name or rather than and, which means that you only need one signature rather than two. Those are some very serious, and some of them can be criminal behaviors. But the infidelity really is speaking to the breach of trust around money, and in this case, oftentimes in addition to any sexual infidelity that's happening. But the real core of this is trust and the break of breaching of that trust.

Tara McCausland: 13:22

I'm curious, how how can partners recognize uh early signs of financial secrecy before maybe it escalates?

Deborah Kaplan: 13:31

It's a very good question, because in some ways puts all relationships under a microscope of guilty before innocence. And I really want to make sure the listener understands that is not my intent, like to assume guilt before innocence, because that that's a horrible way to live, and no one should. With the presumption, not assumption, but with the presumption that two people talk about their life and what their financial contributions and or responsibilities will be, there is a level of understanding and therefore trust. And if one person is agreeing to, yes, I will contribute to the family expenses, or that the money I spend on this credit card will be for the purposes of children's clothes or for the family, and yet it is spent on sex workers, prostitutes, massage parlors, any other kind of sexual acting out, clearly that's a breach of trust. And so what often happens, and what I have found in my practice, is that the partner ends up finding out about the infidelity by way of credit card charges, by way of oftentimes it's credit card charges, by way of withdrawals out of a bank account or out of accounts, or if they are in business together, monies that are not being accounted for. It is often the financial breadcrumbs that lead to the bigger picture of acting out or sexual betrayal. The bottom line is know the state of the state. Be aware of your finances, be aware of where monies are and are not being spent in the household. You know, I say to partners, betrayed partners, hope is not a backup plan. And to just hope that things will work out or to believe that, well, I don't understand this and this will all go okay, is rendering someone in a much more vulnerable position than they really ought to be putting themselves. When I wrote Battle of the Titans in 2020, I did not think of asking. My dad has passed. He passed in 2002, but my mom is still alive. She is currently 95 and she is very with it. But at the time in 2020, I had had a conversation with her. We were in the middle of just starting the COVID lockdown. And she said on the phone one night, How's the book going? I said, Well, you know, it's coming along, and I'm about writing the time when you and dad would argue about money. And she said, So are you going to interview me? And I said, No, actually, because this is from my perspective. And I said, you know, dad controlled all the money, and you know, he often was very anxious and he controlled, he paid the bills, and and you know, you didn't like it. And there was dead silence, and she said, No, that's actually not it at all. I said, Wait, like, seriously? Like, what do you mean? And she began to tell me the story, the situation. So here I am as a child. I have a whole narrative growing up in my life, thinking it's one way, and she's telling me no. My dad wanted nothing more than for her to take over the finances, pay the bills, and be more responsive. But she wanted no part of it. She was like, No, no, no, I don't deal with that. And when he became ill, she had to. Actually, they had a fight long before he became ill where he said, you know, he kept questioning everything she bought. And so she was like, if it bothers you so much, don't do it. And he's like, Well, that's what I've been telling you. When he passed and my mom had to take everything over, it was very clear that even though my dad was never, he never betrayed, never held secrets, and he was very ethical from day one, my mom could have easily been taken advantage of because she true willfully did not want to know. And she was forced into having to know. So to partners who, and we we started with feeling stuck. Yeah, there are circumstances where somebody is financially really vulnerable and does not have the ability or the capacity to leave, or chooses not to for fear of leaving the children. I mean, there's there's that whole dynamic as well, which we won't touch on. With the conversation and the belief that, yes, a partner can learn about financial literacy, can learn to educate and find out information. And if one doesn't know, learn to ask for help. And that's the biggest piece here. My mom really didn't want to know, but she also didn't have an understanding. And so she would ask for help. And she would go to an accountant, she would go to an attorney, she would go to people who could help her. And that's what I tell partners. Because we do socialize sexes in this world, in this country at least, that women just don't know. And that they fall back on the, well, this is too complicated, or it's beyond me. And I rally against that because you may not have that education, you may not have been exposed to financial literacy, but that doesn't mean you don't have the capacity to learn. It's not beyond you. It's just that it's a language you don't know yet. Thank you.

Tara McCausland: 19:13

So if I were to summarize, what I'm hearing from you is we really do ourselves a disservice as partners if we're not sharing that responsibility for a number of reasons. I mean, it's not just couples that are dealing with sexual infidelity that are struggling with money. I mean, that's like one of the top reasons why people separate, right? Is over money issues. But when we bring in the sexual infidelity, that's a landmine if we're having money challenges in addition to, right? Yes. But what I hear from you is that take some responsibility and be confident in asking for help and believing that you can understand this stuff, not just again for the sake of keeping checks and balances on your finances, but for your own empowerment. Can I clarify a point here?

Deborah Kaplan: 19:56

As I sit here talking with you, I imagine that there are listeners who are going to hear this and they may have a very strong reaction to that. In some cases, in families or in relationships where the agreement is you, partner A, will do this and take care of this responsibility of the money, and partner B, I will do this. And yes, two people are agreeing to trust that the agreement we've made together will be carried out.

Tara McCausland: 20:28

Okay.

Deborah Kaplan: 20:29

And I'm not saying that the division of labor is something, I mean, that's a that's doesn't work for everybody. We don't all share equally in a relationship, and that's fine. What I'm saying is willfully being uninformed, truly pushing away not wanting to know, such like my mom did, to no detriment, fortunately, but to willfully not want to know is different than saying I just don't know and I need to find out or I need help and understanding. So I wanted to clarify that.

Tara McCausland: 21:01

Yeah, thank you. And it's funny because we all have feelings about money, we all have a relationship with money that sometimes we haven't really thought through. I know what kind of relationship I have with money. It's very avoidant.

Deborah Kaplan: 21:12

And you have some trauma attached to it.

Tara McCausland: 21:14

And I have some trauma associated with it. Financial trauma. Yes. And my husband, again, like full disclosure here, my husband's always like, Well, you just look at the budget. But I I see how, again, the sexual infidelity aside, we all have real feelings about money and a relationship with money that can either serve us or be challenging for us. And so I think that might be a good question for our listeners to consider is what is your relationship with money? And how do you just feel about your ability to handle money? Before we leave this thought, is it a red flag then if we have in a coupleship one partner saying, I don't want you to be looking at the finances? And I usually they're not going to be that upfront, but they're kind of secretive and they're a little bit more coercive when it comes to having control of funds.

Deborah Kaplan: 22:03

Yes. Um that is a red flag, but it often does not come with a sandwich sign that says you're vulnerable financially in this relationship. It comes in much more subtle ways. And depending on one's experience, one's unresolved trauma or any trauma will depend on how secure one is in pushing back on uh some of these messages. About a month ago, well, actually, it's a while ago, and this is not a one-off, unfortunately. I'm working with someone who contacted me and she contacted me to say, I have spending problems. And I mean, I get every single day somebody contacts me. So there's no one person doing this. And in the conversation that we ended up working for our first time, it became very clear that there were some messages we share, we we divide what we pay for in this relationship. Um, I was being told that by the client, but yet there were some messages of vulnerability that this person was not aware that they were in some ways being exploited. And that is a very tough conversation to have, because in that particular case, I wasn't sure how much she was aware of what she was telling me, because the meaning of what she was saying is that she was unaware that yes, she was in a great relationship, but this was a somewhat coercive, abusive relationship. So I had to be very careful how I ventured forward because the spending was the reason for which she came to me. But the underlying control and what I may say is financial entrapment was a very profound issue that had to be addressed. The question for me became how will I address that? And in what way will I venture forward? Because I'm walking on very, I'm not walking on terra firma. And I have to be mindful of the relationship and the person. So there are some red flags, and some people may miss them because we don't see them as red flags. If we are told growing up that you should marry well, because that will give you security, or don't worry about being self-sufficient, you will have a partner and that will help you. How do you push against those messages, right? You come, we all come with some pre-conceived education. So we don't always see what we don't see, which is why when someone reaches out for help, or there are signs that something's just not quite right, be aware that we all have blind spots. And that every red flag doesn't mean it's the end of the relationship. It just means that there's an inequality or an inequity happening here or an imbalance of power that can change. And in the worst of cases, maybe it won't. And it I always say if someone needs to leave, then you need to leave. But not every case is the worst case scenario.

Tara McCausland: 25:22

Tell me this. So again, we're coupling this idea of sexual infidelity and financial betrayal. How are sexual and financial betrayal traumas similar or different in their emotional and psychological impact? That is case specific.

Deborah Kaplan: 25:39

The sexual infidelity, I have worked with many betrayed partners who say the sexual infidelity is painful for sure. But the emotional toll that this person may have had emotional affairs or this the emotional connection of that affair is what hurts so much, less the sexual aspect of it. When we then factor in the financial betrayal, in particular if, for example, the partner has been told we don't have the money for that, let's hold off on going on vacation. Let's not buy the car because you know we're we're trying to save for kids' education. And then the betrayed partner finds out that that money was being spent on affairs or acting out or on another family. Now, the significance of the sexual infidelity may fall second to the absolute rage around the financial. Because going without and the partner going along to say, okay, that makes sense, and we're a team here. And then all of a sudden, partner finds out we're not a team, and I'm be exploited and being taken advantage of, I mean, that will be the penultimate betrayal and injury.

Tara McCausland: 27:01

Yeah, I my parents have been in recovery for a number of years. And so I've had a lot of opportunity to hear them reflect back on experiences. And while I feel like my mom, she has forgiven my dad. If she's asked, do you fully trust him? She's she says, I trust recovery effort. I recover recovery behavior.

Deborah Kaplan: 27:21

What great response? I don't want to blow past that. Yeah. That's a beautiful response.

Tara McCausland: 27:27

Yeah. But one thing that she often won't let go is how she felt that he stole from her children. One story that came up as I was talking to my parents. So in my senior year, again, this was a very tumultuous time financially for us. My dad, I don't know, he was in between jobs, but I was running for a local pageant. And we had very little money at the time. And I remember going to Dillard's and looking at the Dillard's clearance rack and finding probably the ugliest red dress that might work for a pageant dress for $40, but it was all we could afford. And there was apparently a woman after the fact that uh told my mom she could have won, but I it was the dress. And so, in talking to my parents recently, my dad he said, Well, I guess I need to make amends and I need to buy you a new dress. And I'm I'm grateful for the recognition of what the cost was, the cost for him and for our family in lost opportunity. And I asked my dad, if you were to like itemize, what's what was the cost associated with your addiction? He didn't have an answer for me, but it was significant.

Deborah Kaplan: 28:38

Well, yes, and and I get in the rear view mirror of history, the pain is less, but in your mom's not willing to let go of that, that mama bear protection of okay, betray me, but to hurt and injure our children in this way is vast, the lingering, searing pain. And that is often the case, which is why partners choose to stay, to protect their children. Because many partners say, well, look, if we get divorced, I don't know that addict partner is going to get into recovery. I don't know that I can trust my children being with him or them. I don't I can't ensure safety. And being able to ensure safety means that if financially I can protect my children, if I am closer to where any potential new risk may show up, then I can be more proactive. And that is why many partners stay. In addition to what your mom said, I trust recovery. There's a real intent and behavior behind the words.

Tara McCausland: 29:48

So a follow up to that. So we know that both have a significant impact, both the sexual and the financial infidelity. As we talk about healing, what are some effective ways to begin that healing? From the compounded effects of both types of betrayal?

Deborah Kaplan: 30:04

That also is a great question. I'm a certified sex addiction therapist. I'm a trauma therapist and I work with sex addiction. We often support in the cases where there is healing and a desire on both parties, parts to stay together, we support having what is called a therapeutic disclosure, a therapeutically led disclosure. And that is where the addict prepares a timeline of their acting out behavior with detail. And I don't, I say to the addict partner if they're the one working on it, we're not looking at 30,000 feet and we're not looking at the in the grass level, we're looking at boots on the ground. So they prepare a disclosure of all the sexual infidelity. In addition to that, to answer your question, what are the financial secrets that were held kept at the same time or are still having an impact? And so if the financial piece is substantial enough, I will have the addict prepare a separate financial disclosure because some of them are significant and they dwarf the sexual acting out. So I will have that separate, but no less important and in detail, the monies that are being spent. In 2023, I wrote Coupleship Inc. And my co-author, he's a financial planner because we wanted that piece. And we describe in there how to do a financial disclosure, because there are many documents that have to be looked at and also in many cases, unfortunately, are involved, such as life insurance policies and mortgages and account and so forth. A disclosure for a sexual infidelity allows the partner to know, okay, what am I agreeing to stay for? Like what is it? Where's the line that I can say, I'm starting, I'm looking to work toward healing and I know everything. With truth, rigorous honesty, and transparency, a disclosure happens, and the same thing happens with the financial disclosure. It may be harder to rebuild if there's been finances that have devastated a family. However, if it's about, I bought some gifts, um, I spent money that it's I don't want to give a monetary amount because it's not necessary. It's around the significance of what the money was and what it represented. Now the partner can begin to heal and know what I didn't know before and begin the next part of the journey to be more aware and proactive in their own financial life. The second part of, or the third part of healing is if necessary, and I think in one of the podcasts I had, and I'm not sure which one, but I remember asking the person asking me about prenups. And I said, Well, in my world, we deal with postnups. And that literally just was a conversation I also had just this morning. So post-nuptuals are a way for partners to say, look, if it's not a post-nuptual, it's an account. Over the years, partners have said, I'm too reluctant to agree to get involved all over again just to put myself back in potential harm's way. They can't let go of that. And why should they? Because money equals security. So there are ways around that. Separate accounts, funded accounts that are theirs, so that they can touch that money and know I'm I'm safe here. I will have what I need. And there are many ways to create that financial security so that the emotional healing, there's room for that, right? It opens up space for that.

Tara McCausland: 33:55

Yeah, and I I really love that a lot because I think, as you described in this other podcast that I was listening to, I think some betrayers might see this as being really punitive or like she's trying to control me. But the safety piece that is hovering over a betrayed partner, which is if he betrays me again, if he relapses, if I don't have financial security, I what are my options? And so when you're able to have some financial security and stability or or not just a hope, but if there's some money stashed away that gives you options, right, then you're able to bring the bandwidth and the heart to the emotional healing, to the coupleship.

Deborah Kaplan: 34:37

Absolutely. And it isn't punitive. Again, if the the betraying partner wants to rebuild, then this isn't I'm being punished. One he could, he, they can make the same argument on I'm gonna go do recovery because I'm being punished. Do you want to heal? And what does it take? I mean, I have addicts all day long in my office go, I'll do whatever. Okay, let's talk about A, B, and C. Well, I'll do A, but I won't do B and C. Well, but this isn't a negotiation. And in many cases, they're like, okay, I'll dive in. But if it's already a new negotiation, it isn't on the part of a partner who's being punishing. Consider what is it about the request or the boundary that is so difficult in the couple shift?

Tara McCausland: 35:26

Let's start there. I know for those who are listening, this may be broadening the horizons of, oh, I have never even considered a financial disclosure for the betrayed, right? Or for the betrayer, like, oh, like what would that dig up? What did my acting out cost? So I feel like someone that's in recovery, if they're really serious about it, it's not a negotiation. If they want to save the marriage, if they want to have a healthy relationship, this has to be on the table.

Deborah Kaplan: 35:57

It has to be on the table. And again, the need to establish security. I know partners' mantra is I don't feel safe.

Tara McCausland: 36:06

Yeah.

Deborah Kaplan: 36:06

Without really qualifying, what does that mean? Money means security for many, many people. And when we bring our own histories into this of insecurity or insufficiency or deprivation or scarcity, this only amplifies whatever has not yet been healed. Having that security established is not a punishment. Nor should it be punitive if it's to punish. In other words, if it's about, I want to be paid for my pain and suffering, well, that's a whole different conversation and not what we're referencing here. But if it's about let's establish safety and security so that we can have this healing conversation and grow together, then yes, much like you asked your dad, which I think is amazing for the family, for yourself, for your dad and your mom, that you could have that. You you said something so important. Lost opportunity, monies that were spent and monies that were wasted, opportunities that were not seized. So, yeah, quantifying the amount is very important during a disclosure because it isn't always the actual, it's the loss of opportunity.

Tara McCausland: 37:22

So beyond a financial disclosure, and maybe that would be your primary counsel, what really does healing look like, that healing process look like after experiencing that financial infidelity, especially when leaving the relationship isn't an option?

Deborah Kaplan: 37:38

Yeah, next steps would be for the individual, if they want to stay, or maybe even don't know yet, but I often help individuals say, look, just for today, you only have to make that decision just for today. Tomorrow will show up. And if on the way to making that decision, healing, your trauma now is the abuse, the neglect, is the betrayal. That has to be addressed. And after the shock of all of that or the concussion of all of that, if there is underlying trauma that got exacerbated or drudged up, that has to be also addressed because it was sitting there dormant and then all of a sudden erupted in the earthquake. That healing, that therapy, along with a disclosure, if it's appropriate, then the individual gets to say, okay, I have a clear head. I'm now working out of my responsive self, not the reactive self, because at early trauma, it's all reactivity for good reason. And they get to make a decision, do I really want to stay? And now also decide what I am staying for. This won't be the new polished version of the relationship. It's going to be a brand new relationship. And so I really ask clients to not look back and say, you know, I wasn't crazy about this, but I guess it could work. This is 2.0. It's the old relationship died. The marriage died. Are you willing to create a new marriage? Stronger, healthier. But that's not always the case. And so making the decision about why am I staying? What am I staying for? Is really a personal journey and a very important inner journey to decide what that relationship looks like.

Tara McCausland: 39:40

So what strategies or support systems can help someone rebuild that that trust, that financial stability while staying in the relationship?

Deborah Kaplan: 39:50

Recovery, 12-step recovery, if that's helpful for the individual. Certainly therapy, individual couples, just navigating that languaging, rules of engagement, guide rail, you know, guidelines and and guardrails, uh, disclosure and faith support groups, whether they be religious, spiritual, so important, connected to community. And along those lines, people who understand us because we all speak the same language, support groups about betrayal, support groups that may involve trauma, betrayal trauma. That is so helpful. And no one else who walks in those shoes would better understand it than another betrayed partner, as long as it's a healthy support group and it isn't about getting their fair share and piling on. We want to make sure that it's productive. And for the betraying partner, if there's addiction, same thing. 12th step and support and therapy and recovery, establishing sobriety and emotional sobriety, not just I'm not acting out on my bottom line behaviors and couples' work. And really looking at the entitlement and the narcissism underneath the behavior, because it is self-centered. It's pro-self, not pro-social, and looking at what am I staying for and how am I best going to show up for another.

Tara McCausland: 41:21

And as far as like resources to rebuild the financial trust and stability, do you have programs, books, people that you would point couples to or individuals?

Deborah Kaplan: 41:32

Um I will absolutely tout in my book, Couples Ship Inc., because I think it's a very it's a workbook and it's uh actually a profound book to help on an individual level and a couples level. Financial planners, financial advisors, therapy. So the emotional, the financial, there's also financial therapy. I'm a financial therapist, and what that means is another whole podcast, but um, the financial and the clinical support. Because many individuals, when we're talking about financial infidelity, need to be educated. The literacy of just what is an investment and what do I do with this account? So they need really just languaging and an understanding. There are so many online financial literacy platforms and apps because this generation of children are learning to be more financially literate than ever. So there are some wonderful like cash apps, how to spend money, budgeting, and how to really stick to budgets and spending, because the individual who's been betrayed may want to go hog wild on I'll get even, but they dig themselves into a new rut and a new debt. So the financial support and the clinical support are so beneficial, along with spiritual and faith-based support.

Tara McCausland: 42:56

So at SA Lifeline, we talk about recovering individuals and healing families. And again, being a daughter of an addict, I'm often thinking about the kids that are sitting in the household watching parents as they're trying to navigate sexual betrayal and often financial infidelity. So if you were talking to individuals and couples specifically about how do you train up your children to be more financially literate so that as they get into committed relationships, it's maybe a smoother transition.

Deborah Kaplan: 43:26

Well, it's funny because the awareness of when you're when you had shared really so wonderfully that your mom opened the cabinet and said, Well, how are we going to get food? Where do we get money to spend? The messaging for children is, and this is not a statement about what your mom said, but relevant to what your mom said. There are many things that parents don't want to spend money on because it's just not prudent. But often the words come out, we don't have the money. So the message to the child is, oh no, we have financial insecurity. Well, then I should go without. And I won't tell mom or dad or parent that I have a this hurts or that hurts. Because the message is children are literal. And then we grow up and we stay very literal about this. So it's we have the money, but this is not where we're going to budget it for now. And the lesson is about being how to teach children to be responsible, less about the fear of what we don't have, because the fear is often what's communicated. It's from a position of lack. No, we we can't get that toy. We don't have the money. We do when little Susie or Johnny want the toy and say they can't, but they see a big car showing up in the driveway. I thought we didn't have the money. So it's about teaching children where we budget, what we are prioritizing right now. And so that children are a proactive, they're given the opportunity to be a proactive voice in the family without offsetting or offloading responsibility. It's just children are smarter than we may give them credit for. So there's a way to do it that is age appropriate.

Tara McCausland: 45:12

It's very interesting. Once again, I've just had a couple days to reflect on my relationship with money and how my money experience was affected by my dad's sexual addiction. So I I think inviting our listeners to be brave and to think about how do I feel about money and what experiences did I have in my childhood that shaped my perception of money. It's not just a conversation about money, it really reveals so many other things about ourselves. And that's what's fascinating, going back to what your initial story was about uh Wall Street and what was happening in Wall Street. Money doesn't have emotion, but we sure have a lot of emotion as human beings about money.

Deborah Kaplan: 45:51

Right. Exactly. And I will add to what you're what you just said about being brave, be curious. Yeah. Be curious about, huh? This is my reaction to money, or this is this is my reaction to spending or not wanting to spend, or I I feel better when we don't spend or we save. What is that about? To be curious, which means it opens up exploration rather than shuts the door to yes.

Tara McCausland: 46:18

I love that. And as well, when we're talking to couples, like if we can really be on the same page when it comes to how we handle funds and are we collaborative, are we transparent? That can do so much for the the trust in relationship or not, right?

Deborah Kaplan: 46:33

It certainly goes the long way to re-establishing and re-building trust. And the person who has done the betraying has the hundred percent load doing that.

Tara McCausland: 46:43

Yes. Amen. Well, where can people find you if they would like to connect with you?

Deborah Kaplan: 46:50

I have a wide digital footprint, but very small social media footprint because I really I'm I I dislike I hate saying that out loud, but the fact of the matter is I just don't care to feed that machine. I get it. Regrettably, I have my own website. I do have a LinkedIn account, and I do have a professional Facebook page that I tend to put on there. But I have a very wide digital footprint. My books can be found in bookstores or online booksellers. They're audio as well. So that's always very helpful for people who don't sit and read or don't have the time or they just want to drive and listen, as long as their kids are not in the car, because some of this can be activating. So that's where you can find me. And I wanted to thank you very much for the invitation.

Tara McCausland: 47:32

Yeah, so I've enjoyed this conversation so much. And before you go, our bookend question what would you tell an individual or couple that's just starting the path of recovery? And on the flip side, what would you tell an individual or couple that has been doing this work for a while?

Deborah Kaplan: 47:49

That there is no greater strength in the empowered self. Because feeling empowered and being empowered is about leaning into authentic empowerment. And there is no greater strength than that. That is powerful.

Tara McCausland: 48:05

Wonderful. Thank you so much, Deborah. Grateful for your important work in this field. And thank you again for your time. You're welcome. Thank you, Deborah. Thanks for joining us. We invite you to subscribe to this podcast so that you don't miss new episodes. And while you're at it, will you please leave us a five-star rating and review to help us spread the good news that healing from sexual addiction and betrayal trauma is possible. We invite individuals who are struggling to join our virtual or in-person trauma-sensitive 12-step meetings. Meeting times and locations can be found at saltwelvestep.org. You can find quality education at salifeline.org, and we hope that you will follow us on Instagram and Facebook. SA Lifeline is a 501c3 nonprofit organization, and we welcome donations.