David Westerlund & Sara McMahon

Sara is a classically trained actress with tendencies to fly by the seat of her pants, an improv instructor and performer, who teaches others how to enhance listening skills, playfulness, empathy, connectedness, and liberation from fear of failure. She is an emerging papercut artist, whom you can visit at IG @saramacpapercuts.

David delights in listening to the aspirations of leaders and helping them and their teams unlock hidden resources by facilitating meaningful and playful engagement. He enjoys collaborating with clients to design and facilitate retreats that catalyze trust, listening, and possibility - creating a space for both gravity and levity to emerge. He serves leaders and teams primarily in non-profit, business, and government. Find out more at DavidWesterlund.com.

To learn more about Holden Village, visit: http://www.holdenvillage.org or to listen to more audio recordings visit: http://audio.holdenvillage.org. The Holden Village Podcast is accessible through Apple iTunes, Spotify, TuneIn, iHeart Radio, and most podcast apps. For questions and inquiries, contact podcast@holdenvillage.org.

Background music by Alex_MakeMusic: Inspiring Motivational Mood.

Transcript

David Westerlund & Sara McMahon

[00:00:00] Intro: Welcome to Holden Main Street: a playful podcast series dedicated to capturing the daily life and creative musings of ordinary folk at Holden Village. Who are the people drawn to this wild and uniquely transformative mountain community? How do their descriptions of hilarity, wilderness living, shared work and interior exploration shape the landscape of their time here? Expect to be delighted by improvised stories, poetry readings, the sounds of tea being poured, songs being sung, and bits of whimsy inspired by the moment. Enjoy.

[00:00:41] David: Did I really say that? 

[00:00:45] Sara: I'll be Sara. Yeah, totally, totally.

[00:00:50] David: The Podcaster...just when you think you're going to end. Just when you thought he would finish the question...or the guest would finish their response.

[00:00:59] Sara: And it never ends! One other thing I've really been ruminating on lately. 

[00:01:05] David: See, now I hear the maniacal laughter (maniacal laughter ensues).

[00:01:12] Sara: Oh, we're not done.

[00:01:19] Dev: Excellent. See, we're already having fun. And yes...you'll be able to make your 11am. So...Westerlund. Correct. Duh. Duh. Westerlund. Like part

[00:01:30] Sara: Duh! emphasize the Duh!

[00:01:33] Dev: Excellent. duh? Okay. 

[00:01:40] David: Honey, I love the Holden Podcast, but in the last episode they spent 15 minutes asking me to pronounce my name. 

[00:01:47] Sara: Oh, are we recording?

[00:01:54] Dev: Yeah, oh yeah...we've been recording this entire time. We've already got some really juicy like bits. I thought about creating a subscription to the podcast...where they get all like the blooper reels.

So, anyway...your last name is McMahon. Westerlund...McMahon. It's open to the interpretation then...

[00:02:13] David: It's more the Lund than the land. Most people say land. It's Lund...so thanks. She likes saying the Duh!

[00:02:19] Dev: Whatever makes you happy. So, welcome to another episode of the Holden Village podcast. We are in week six of the 2023 summer program at Holden Village. I am with the dynamic duo...the improvised dynamic duo...David Westerlund and Sara McMahon. 

[00:02:48] Sara: Woooo! 

[00:02:49] David: Woooo! Glad to be here. 

[00:02:53] Dev: David's already pacing around.

[00:02:59] David: Pacing helps with Podcasting, 

[00:03:03] Dev: Apparently. Yeah. So, okay!

[00:03:07] David: You're going to need a lot of editing for us.

[00:03:08] Dev: Oh no...this is perfect! I'm just going to edit...take away all the non-laughs. It'll just be a montage of laughter. I think that's probably what we need.

[00:03:22] David: Yes we do...speaking of laughter. 

[00:03:27] Dev: How would both of you like to describe what you are sharing with the village this week? 

[00:03:34] David: Basically, when we think of improv...sometimes people think of musical improv...like jazz...and then there's theater improv. Some people have seen the show Whose Line is it Anyway...and they're familiar with that comedy. And then what Sara and I are bringing is this craft...this field of applied improvisation. So taking all the things that make improv work on stage...like being present to each other...being willing to let go...not talking too long.

I'm still learning that one...and so many other things. Seeing mistakes as gifts...celebrating failure...reincorporating failure...taking that beyond the theater into any place where people interact. And in our times...we really need to work on our ability to relate...and so what Sarah and I have been doing this week is leading classes. They're all highly interactive where we play games and exercises reflecting on...what did we learn from this? And one of the wonderful things...I'll just share this briefly...people at the end of the first class on Monday was like, wow...I feel so connected to people. I love being a part of making that happen.

[00:04:44] Sara: The Surgeon General of the United States actually just listed isolation and loneliness as an epidemic.

[00:04:50] David: Just today. Before it becomes breaking news...he texts Sara first. 

[00:04:55] Sara: He texted me and he was like...I need you to get the word out. And he said that loneliness and isolation are at epidemic levels in the U. S. Even more so than...obviously we had a pandemic that contributed to it, but we were hurting before that...and now it's even more. So something like what we're doing is really a very easy and instantaneous way to move out of isolation...and into connection. It really doesn't take much...even within one game of playing, people start to feel a difference. They start to feel...people were saying in the feedback yesterday when people were talking about how they felt after the class...a couple people said I feel like there's a place for me...which is really meaningful.

[00:05:42] David: I remember another person saying belonging. Yeah, it's basically the same thing.

[00:05:45] Sara: Yeah, so it's a very accessible art form and very great way to build community that doesn't have anything to do with any outside factors of who you are...other than who you are right here in this moment with me. 

[00:06:03] David: And it's something...as you were talking to Sara...it's accessible to anyone. It's not like in our class...creating a scene and being characters. It's all this basic stuff that make that character scene work on stage. But just so as listeners think about this. Often when I say improv...people will back up their body and put their hand out like...oh, I can never do that, right?

Yeah. So it's really awesome when people realize there's these very simple games that not only can they do...but it feels liberating. And then one of the joyful things for Sara and I this week is being out in the village and seeing a parent with a child...teaching that game...playing the game and laughing together.

[00:06:46] Sara: Yeah. Or people doing their secret handshake as they pass each other in the doorway of the bookstore. Yeah. Oh, it's delicious. 

[00:06:56] Dev: In both of your personal lives...where has improv helped both of you the most? 

[00:07:01] David: That's a great question. 

[00:07:02] Sara: I can think of two ways off the top of my head. One is really...I think to myself quite often about playing the scene that I'm in...playing the offer that I've been given...like what is the offer right now?

Okay, I just missed my bus. What does that mean as far as what is that offer? Oh, I'm gonna walk now and oh, I found this great store...and it's not always like wonderful things...but as opposed to being super upset about it...and not accepting that that's the reality. I can say...well this is the reality of where I am...now what? Right?

And the other one is something I was just thinking about this morning as David alluded to...we both like to talk a lot. We both sort of process as we're talking...and I was thinking about using the game Half Life. Do you know that game? Do either of you know that game? You play a scene for like a minute...then 30 seconds...and every time you play it again...you cut it in half...until you're doing the scene in one second.

And I was thinking about that for myself...in terms of what's important about playing that game...is that...as you play it...all the stuff that is filler (hi, how are you? Good, how are you?) that happens on stage. It all falls away and everything that's left is what's really important to communicate...someone's wants, needs, emotions, desires...whatever it is to the other person.

And so I was thinking about that this morning of like...what if I treated what I had to say as though there was a constraint...to say the things that really mattered...instead of just all this filler stuff. Or sometimes noticing I'm using the filler stuff because I need it cause I'm afraid...or I feel too vulnerable...or whatever it is. That helped me pay attention to what was happening with some of the choices I was making with words...and how I was talking.

[00:08:59] Dev: That's awesome. I'm very fascinated with that topic because I've also discovered in my life...and also listening to other people do improv...is how many disclaimers we make...particularly so that people won't judge us. That's like 50% of the fillers. It's like these protective disclaimers.

[00:09:20] Sara: Well, when you have that limitation on your words...whether it's that game...or a game that says you can say three words this whole scene, right? Or something like that. How do you wait in that silence...and fill it? You're not just standing there doing nothing. You're actively present and filling that space, but you have to really pay attention to do that. And you know that game too...the first time you redo the scene...people tend to speed it up and try to jam everything still that they had said before.

They try to get it all in and then they end up with like five seconds at the end that there's nothing there because they crammed it all in...and then usually by the second time they think...I can let go, right? So it's about like...I don't have to still try to keep all this stuff...and I can let go of it. And we just are really trying to be seen and heard and understood. And sometimes that comes about by trying to cram in all into leftover space.

[00:10:24] David: Yeah. So that takes me to how I can often do that...then I know other people try to jam so much in to our experience. Right? And if we think about it that way too...I think about this past Monday...today's Thursday...I realized in the morning that the day before I had done that jamming...and I just had this intention when I woke up...I wanna have spaciousness...I want to be spacious...and I just sort of let the day unfold.

I had some things on my schedule. And then I had lunch with Dev...that was wonderful. And before that...I ran into an old friend from Bellingham...and we walked to Beanie's together...and had this great conversation. And so...it's this willingness to let go...and like so much in life...as in improv...if something's difficult...we need to practice it.

And that's what's great about the improv games and exercises is it's an opportunity to practice...and Sara and I did something back in January. We had heard an NPR story in November of 2022 about even just 20 minutes a day of improv can change your life...kind of thing. Boost your confidence...lower your anxiety...all this...and we've heard that...it wasn't like new to us. But we sort of glommed on. Can I use the word glommed on this podcast? 

[00:11:51] Dev: I'm just going to duplicate the word. Glommed...Glommed...Glommed on. 

[00:11:53] David: It's starting to get gross. So I glommed on to whatever is left of my mind. The NPR article. Thank you...the NPR article. We glommed on to the 20-minute thing and we said...hey, what if we did something on Zoom? Sara lives in Seattle...I live in Bellingham...about 90 miles apart. And we did a 20-minute playtime on Zoom every day for a week. At first I wanted to do it every day for the month of January...and then I'm like...let it go...pare it down...half life...quarter life. 

And so we did that from 10 Pacific...Monday to Friday...and the second week of January of this year...just 20 minutes. We were really sharp with that. And as people logged on...we had people put in the chat...how are you feeling as you arrive and normalizing...we could feel lots of things...but often people are feeling stressed...tired...overwhelmed...and we play some games...and then check in at the end.

And it was just great hearing like wow...I feel renewed...or I feel connected...joyful. Yeah. And so in the applied improv world...we talk about...there's this one woman...Cat Coppet...who's in the Albany, New York area...and she talks about improv as the gym. How do we get in our reps to learn new neural pathways...new behavioral pathways...and relating pathways?

[00:13:22] Sara: Yeah, and that makes me think of...the thing that was really cool too about the article...is that they were saying that for people who have anxiety...oftentimes you're thinking about what's coming...what's possible. Oh, I can't face that. There's something bad that will happen...or whatever it is. And the thing that improv does for them is that they can face scary situations in a very controlled environment...and a fun environment. And then they come through on the other side and they think...yeah, I did it...and so it's working that muscle in the gym of...I'm okay.

[00:14:02] David: And I'll speak to that in terms of...was your question before like how does it impact your life? Yeah, so related anxiety...I deal with anxiety...and I have my whole life...and I realize certain things will provoke it...like too much caffeine...

[00:14:40] Dev: As he chugs his coffee...

[00:14:50] David: It's decaf I swear! I don't know where this is coming from. I have all these beans in my pocket. So, overstimulation, right? And so, I have to have ways to reset...to bring it back. And I'm what is call a UADD. I'm undiagnosed ADD. And I'm an enthusiast...any listeners who know the Enneagram. So I love saying yes and exploring. And then before I know it...I've overdone it...and I'm anxious, right? And so I'll tell a brief story of one time...let's say eight years ago...I was going to perform at our local theater in Bellingham called The Upfront.

And this person, Seth, had asked me to perform with a group that night. And I just had a horrible day. I was just feeling crappy. And I was like...ugh, I don't really want to perform. But I told Seth I was going to do it. I'll go. And then I was chatting with him. And he's like, hey man. I was honest with him. I was a little vulnerable. Which was helpful. Because then he could look me in the eye and say...hey, whenever we've played together...it's been great...and we're in the green room in the back...and we start doing some simple warm up games. I start getting out of my head a little bit. I noticed that. And then we perform, which can be a little anxiety producing...but like you said...Sara...we're facing our fears.

And at the end of the performance...it was just one half of a show...I felt a hundred- and eighty-degree difference. I had checked nothing off my to do list because often in my anxiety...I'm like...I got so much to get done. I gotta get this all done. But it's not about getting it done. It's about having that mind shift.

And there is a quote I come to often is how play and laughter shift our cognition out of our amygdala. So we're so often...especially in our time...stuck in that fight/flight space. So play and laughter is this gift taken...and with improv you have to focus...even just simple clap circle games. 

[00:16:18] Dev: I love that...so this has been the third episode in a row where neuroscience has been involved...to all our listeners out there...we're getting down to the nitty gritty of science. But also...in the context of mindful improv...when I took my first class...it hit me like a ton of bricks that this was a revealing art form.

And as such, I got super into it...super addicted to it. It took me a while to realize, but I've always meditated in my life...and so the way that I like to express meditation is being able to just take a step back from the mind...cause the mind...particularly in the Indian tradition...they have this beautiful creation myth of the mind where it's your protector.

Like you come into this world with a protector...and that's your mind...and it's there to help guide you into the world. But eventually you're supposed to leave it...leave the nest because that mind...while it's protecting you...it's also affirming your attachments and your fears. And so if you don't take that leap of getting beyond it...then you're just living in these presets in your head...this is what I'm afraid of...this is what I like to cling to.

[00:17:39] Sara: Right, this is who I am. 

[00:17:40] Dev: Exactly...and the identity piece is like the number one factor in all of our disgruntled-ness. It's like convincing ourselves...I am this...therefore I can only do this...I can't do that. And improv also gives us the opportunity to expand who we think we are by even playing characters that we may normally not even play. But also that leads into the work specifically that both of you do...that we've all done at some point. I don't officially do it anymore, but you've gone into the consulting and corporate training realm. How would you like to speak to that and maybe plug both of yourselves in that way? 

[00:18:26] David: One of the things I love...I work in various sectors because in every sector there's humans. And there's similar things that cut across sectors. And really one of the things I clarified with someone I've had as a coach the last couple of years...is I want to work with leaders who want to learn...grow...and develop...and want the same for their teams.

I naively assumed before two years ago that every leader wants to learn and grow and develop. And I realized...well no...some just want to get things done, right? Because to learn and grow and develop takes time. We have to slow down and pause and reflect...and admit this identity thing...maybe I'm facing some of our...for lack of a better word right now...flaws or things we want to grow out of...but don't know how to...and it gets complex.

And so I love coming alongside leaders and teams...and first of all...talking with the leader and saying...where do you want your organization...your team to be in three to five years. I used to start with just...and sometimes I hear their problems...the pain points that come up...like what's on your mind...why are you interested in talking with me...but as soon as possible talking about where do you want to go?

And it's so interesting because when I talk with leaders often...I'll say this imagination question...2028...which is five years from recording of this...what do you see? What do you imagine? And all of a sudden, they're back in the present of this problem here. Sometimes I push them back...but often it's people I've just met...and their potential clients. I want to just slowly just take what the offer is from them. But when we imagine it uses a different part of our brain...to get back to neuroscience...and so anyways...I love thinking about where is it they want to go.

Maybe they thought of it...maybe they haven't. And then how are you working towards getting there...asking them...maybe they're already there. And if they are or aren't...how can I come alongside and help support that? So some of that is through applied improv, but that's really just a subset of what I do...that's really about who do we need to be and become in order to do what we want to do...or in order to face complex problems. And so I use a variety of different tools, but it's all highly interactive retreats...and workshops for clients...ideally over time...because it's not going to just be a one off.

[00:20:49] Dev: That's what they originally want, right? Teach me everything in one session.

[00:20:58] Sara: Do you want to talk about coaching?

[00:21:00] David: I do want to talk about coaching. Thanks, Sara. I also do coaching and a few years ago I started with just team development workshops...started with just improv...and then I had a client with a health care organization. Two days prior I was thinking I want to start into coaching...and then this woman Denise says...David, I so appreciate our conversations...would you consider coaching me? I was like Denise, I was just thinking this!
 
And I said...just so you know...you'd be my first client. And what I love about coaching is it seems like there's a lot more mindfulness in that...or it's just a different flavor than teamwork because it's about helping clients pause, slow down...and I need to pause and slow down in order to create that space for them...and to cultivate a self-awareness and agency.

And where do you want to go and what's holding you back? And we talk about their work scenario, but also...what are the things in your life that you're doing to promote your wellbeing or not? How can you bring mindfulness to your use of your phone and your devices? I think that's a whole another thing of like...that'd be interesting to do a thing at Holden. I could use some workshops on that. And not that I'm perfect at all with that. But I think our devices are tools of impulsivity. They cultivate impulsive muscles...and so if we can bring intentionality to that...there's just so much reward. So that's a bit about what I do. 

[00:22:25] Sara: Yeah. David's really good at what he does. It's really fun to facilitate with you. We've done several things together...and it's always really fun...and I always learn a lot. I teach beginning improv for unexpected productions in Seattle. So just straight improv for theater. And then I teach couples workshops for unexpected productions...a couple is any two people...and that's really narrowing the connectivity down to really exist or fire between those two people...if they're really paying attention and listening...taking care of one another...all that stuff.

I love that. And then I also do those workshops online. I travel and do them as well. And then I do some corporate training similar to what David does. I did develop a card deck that is a great resource for anything...but I developed it also out of a lot of research about couples and stuff. So it goes nicely with the couples workshop...I really love that. 

And I have started coaching training. I'm in training right now, which I love. I've started in my coaching sessions with my fellow trainees. I've started adding in applied improv exercises because that will be my sort of focus...and way of going about it. In coaching they know all the answers themselves...already they have it within them already. You're just helping them to ask questions to help them get there...and a lot of these exercises can really help them their intuition...which is maybe blocked for some reason.

And you know...Viola Spolin...the creator of Improv...said that her dream was a world of accessible intuition. So that's what we're doing. That's what we're hoping to do. That's what our dream is. So, those are some of the things that I do. And I also do things that I don't know what they are yet. We'll see. 

[00:24:28] David: True that. We will see. That's the essence of improv. Yeah. 

[00:24:33] Sara: There are things that are going to happen in the next few years that I have no idea about with improv...and teaching...and learning, 

[00:24:40] David: Yeah, I like when you said about Viola's goal in saying accessible intuition. I love...as we talked earlier in this interview about connectedness, right? There's connectedness at all levels. Connectedness between us right here...connectedness in our own minds. I mean, Dan Siegel...who's this pioneer of interpersonal neurobiology...talks about health. He says in mental health...we often talk about mental illness...and you've got the whatever it is...DSIM...something that psychologists studied...some big reference guide of all the maladies.

But he says wellness is integration. It's connection of left and right...all kinds of parts of our brain and body. And so that's communication too...and connectedness. Right, so accessible intuition...we're really talking about connectedness with that...and that's a muscle that has to have practice. It'd be like...is my body telling me that I'm full? That I should stop? Do I really want to have this piece of toast?

[00:25:40] Dev: The answer is always yes. That should be a bumper sticker. 

[00:25:48] Sara: You know...the thing that I think we've sort of alluded to as well is that improv is really fun. It's just fun. Like there's so much playfulness and people will be in my classes...and they'll say...I cannot remember the last time I just played. Right. Like it's almost overwhelming emotionally to them sometimes. Like it's kind of moving to think of themselves as people who play. 

[00:26:13] David: And I wonder, too, if there's a sense of...well, it's a practice, too. David and I raise our hands. She taught me that. To the listener, David just raised his hand. We do that. And now I lost it. We were talking about play and laughter. Oh right...overwhelming. I wonder if there can be that sense of overwhelming emotion. And I'm feeling this and almost wondering and sensing because people are like...oh, I used to play when I was eight...and I have it and feeling the tragedy of that because it feels so good. It feels so good. 

So one of the things I firmly believe...and I would imagine we believe is that play is not trivial. It's anything but. It's the opposite. It's important. It's vital. It's revolutionary. Yeah. It's revolutionary. Can you say more about that? 

[00:27:07] Dev: One of the things that I've always loved about sort of like mystical theology is this notion that that creativity is one of the ultimate acts. And so I would associate creativity with play as well. And so as long as we're creating...and that even goes into like identities...if we are redefining ourselves every moment...to give us this sense of infinity or infinite potential...or however you want to talk about that...play and creativity allows us to do that.

[00:27:38] David: And have a different relationship with the unknown. So case in point...someone I know in talking with their therapist...and they were talking with this person about their fear of the unknown...and then helped this person think about how...when is a time unknown has been joyful...and this person talked about when they're at this wonderful place with their family that was pedestrian and bike friendly.

It wasn't Holden...but another place...and they would discover interesting things and take photos of them. They didn't know what...and I think about when I run into someone at Holden...and we have this conversation like the one I had on Monday. There's a delight in that...uncertainty gets a bad rap often. And speaking of play...one thing I would love to do before the end of our thing...besides just talk about play.

[00:28:28] Dev: The seed has been planted.

[00:28:28] David: That's right. And this has already been played.

[00:28:37] Sara: That's the thing with improvisers. Once you get in this...you become involved in improv...you're always looking for play. Like, where's the game? It's like everything becomes possible. Everything is open to you as a game. 

[00:28:54] Dev: To the audience...gestures are being made. Mirror...mirroring...mirror cats...all that. I do want to get to the summer theme...and don't worry...we will play. Yes. Lots of gestures happening right now. This is like a Qigong ball of energy pose that we're doing right now. Eden is calling. What does that mean to both of you and how have you reflected on that as you've been in the Holden community this week?

[00:29:23] David: Well, when I think about a garden...when I think about Eden...I think about a garden...thinking about a Nance Mitchell song...I think about permaculture garden. And I don't know a ton about permaculture. But what I do know is there's companion planting. Things are planted...and there's relationship. When something comes up...let's say a weed...I'm putting air quotes here...weed...it tells us something about the soil. I have a friend, Larry, who does permaculture. He's actually works now at Yale for something they call their farminary. It's like a farm seminary part of thing.

So there's companion planning. There's when something comes up it tells you about the soil. Oh, it needs more nitrogen. It doesn't have enough and also...how much you can produce in a small acreage with just a different way of thinking about farming and gardening. Like I love those things...and all the beauty that comes out...and so when I think about that...I guess I think about improv...and there's just even the simplest things...there's so much like an explosion of life.

[00:30:29] Sara: I was really moved in a conversation yesterday with a woman named Laura...who was here and has been in our class every day...who was talking about something that she was a part of where at the beginning they did this. And we did it last night in the sacred space where at the beginning...everyone just started breathing and then began to synchronize their breath with the breath of the earth...and the breath of the trees...and the breath of the animals that were there...and just every living existing thing in that interconnectedness. 

And that, for me, has really felt like what this week has been like with all of the other faculty with their work...and just talking about the interconnectedness...and the co-creation...and all that stuff...with the very land that we are on...with the very creatures that are here...with the very air that we are breathing...with the sky and the wind and the water.

And so that, to me, has been very much about how we are...there's this really great interview with TJ and Dave on radio lab. Have you ever heard that interview? They talk about starting from nothing about improv and starting from nothing...and how they believe that the story is actually already happening.

And what they do is they're quiet on stage...and they look at each other...and they listen...and they wait...and then they begin...and then they connect into the story that's already going. They tell that story. And then they sort of move on and the story itself keeps going. Maybe someone else picks it up later or maybe not. But it's sort of like that...that co-creation...that larger creativity is here. It's already happening. And it's our job to just to honor...our privilege to slow down. Breathe in and connect with what's already happening. And that playfulness, 

[00:32:16] David: That's what it's been for me too. Three more things that came up...I'm going to say them. Harmony, creation, and something larger than ourselves that we're entering. Okay, so harmony in creation...or I talk about permaculture or Eden...I imagine all living things are in harmony, right? And even like the end of scripture talking about revelation...the lion with the lamb...the child with the snake above the snake's hole...there's a sense of harmony.

And in improv, the best improv is when all the improvisers are totally giving and taking and letting go and in sync. So creating is another thing in improv...we're creating all the time...and that's the garden. And creating with...I love what you said about the TJ & Dave...it's a good reminder. There is something already here. There's a mystery that we're participating with, right? And we get to play with, right? And so being curious about what's already there. We don't have to bring everything, which is so liberating. 

[00:33:18] Dev: And that's probably the greatest misconception of what improv is...is that you have to do all these things in order to chase a laugh...and you end up not being any of those things anyway. 

[00:33:35] Sara: And you often end up telling other people's stories...or stories that have already been told as opposed to bringing the story that lives within you...and the person that's on stage with you. 

[00:33:45] Dev: And when I think of like this modern age...people don't know their own voice...and that leads to a lot of anxieties. It's often this mimicry. And mirroring is a beautiful natural human technique that we all do. I feel like as children we have to mirror things. But if we don't grow out of that...then we don't develop our own expressions, which is sad. 

[00:34:50] Sara: Yeah, it's hard too when the identity is...when people aren't telling their own stories...or aren't able to access their intuition...their creativity...they gloom onto other things.

[00:35:01] David: That's called the callback.

[00:35:05] Sara: ...onto other things that they feel are their identity...whether it's a political belief...or a family belief...or whatever it is...they sort of can use that as a shield to not access their own story...and move into the world...it's vulnerable.

Dr. Brené Brown says it's hard to hate up close. And one of the ways we get up close is through play. And I talk about that a lot in my couples workshops...where people come in and it's not therapy. I'm not trying to fix anybody's relationships or anything. And people often find that they are at an impasse if one way or another...they've not communicated well...whatever it is. If they play first...they find that they have more relationship resiliency. They have more compassion for themselves...more compassion for each other...and then they are able to move forward in a way that feels...their ears are more open...their hearts are more open. They can connect. David, I see your hand.

[00:36:06] David: Thank you, Sara. This takes me to what you're saying. There was someone who did a documentary about his work in applied improv. Can't remember his name, but he'd worked with some politicians in DC. And he tells a story...maybe you've heard this...where someone came up to him...after improv session...this is Democrats and Republicans in the same room playing improv. He says...damn you...you made me like Karl Rove. That's the thing. When you play with people...you're away from that distance and you're coming into this different space. 

[00:36:41] Sara: Yeah. I don't even ask my improv classes...my eight-week classes. I don't ask any personal information about where they work...what they believe...I don't in any way. So all they are doing is creating this tight knit ensemble of people who play...and that's their language. 

[00:36:57] David: Because sometimes I think what we're doing when we don't do that...we're putting people in boxes and labels...we're in a sense dehumanizing the other, right? It's hard to do that when you're playing. 

[00:37:08] Sara: When you feel like...okay, oh they're there...I know all about that already. Yes, yes. I know the end of that story. 

[00:37:15] David: And we don't. 

[00:37:16] Dev: Or you can play a character that you would normally not enjoy...and then you get to see through that perspective. And then compassion really starts to pour through.

[00:37:29] Sara: Oh yeah. There are some great applied improv games about that. Yeah. About coming from other...the opposite point of view. 

[00:37:37] David: They're hard, but they're good. Totally. 

[00:37:41] Dev: Ah! Juicy! Okay, this is great...this is great! Okay. David really wants to play right now. Oh, that's right! 

[00:37:48] David: So, we're gonna play...Sara and I like to play a game over and over and over. Because it's always new and always fun...called Bumper Sticker. And we create a bumper sticker one word at a time...and when any of us...or all of us...since there's three of us here...we say, stick it. And we push our hand out like we're putting the bumper sticker on a car.

[00:38:19] Sara: And we probably don't want to yell too loud for the...you want to start?

[00:38:34] David:  I do, yes. We'll go this way. 

[00:39:02] David: Talk later. Yeah. Talk later. Okay.

Will Fawns leap into deserts? Stick it!

Breathe easily when tornadoes. Shake the Earth. Stick it!

[00:39:33] David: We can start creating these bumper stickers for  health. Okay, honey there's a tornado...what do you do? Breathe easily. 

[00:39:50] Dev: And that's like a self-help manifesto...how to be in turbulent times.

[00:40:00] Sara: We have actually found that...especially when we don't think at all...we just are present...that our intuition...bumper stickers can be very truthful and intuitive...and have a lot to teach us about what's going on.

Gimme some patience. Today! Stick it!

[00:40:17] David: All caps. Give me some more time...I should have said now. Right now.

[00:40:37] Sara: Keep going. Let's keep going. 

[00:40:42] David: Laughter becomes contagious if I open my stomach.

That's right. It's a cleanse. You know honey, I've been reading this book about detox...28-day thing. You can only have saltines. Well, I'm reading this other magazine where apparently laughter. For just 20 minutes a day...you can do the same thing. 

[00:41:21] Dev: It really is...laughter...it's a weight loss program as well.

[00:41:29] Sara: Vagus nerve...so you can get out of fight and flight. Are we still playing?

[00:41:40] Dev: Always. 

[00:41:43] David: Fire tends to consume any watery substances that pandas carry on my backpack. 

[00:42:14] Sara: Sometimes David and I are like...that one goes like 

[00:42:15] David: A whole bumper. Yeah. Okay, how about one more bumper sticker on toast...related to Holden toast. Okay. It's such a special thing. 

[00:42:26] Dev: Okay. I think I skipped you. 

[00:42:28] Sara: Do you want to start?

[00:42:30] David: Gluten makes for marvelous toast and when I eat Jam I gloom forever!

[00:42:56] Sara: So now what's interesting to me is David...and correct me if I'm wrong...I think you were picking up on my micro offers of gluten because I know about...I could see in your face...and in your body that you saw what was going on with me...and you were kind of thinking about that in the bumper sticker of like directing it to what the micro offers.

[00:43:23] Dev: Yeah, I saw your face as soon as I said gluten...and it was just like...ugh. 

[00:43:29] David: And I was like, anyway. Yeah. 

[00:43:31] Sara: But it was interesting. I mean that's a lot of what we teach is all those micro offers...and the more you do improv...the more that you're paying attention to those and going...how can I incorporate those in the play that we're doing?

[00:43:43] David: So with that Sarah...I want to loop back to what you were talking about research earlier...and you've told me before...the Gottman's. Yep. What are their first names again?

[00:43:50] Sara:  John...Doctors John and Julie Gottman

[00:43:52] David: Julie Gottman. Doctors John and Julie Gottman...who are from Seattle, I think? They've done this love lab and all kinds of research on what makes relationships work. And speaking of these micro offers, right? Those little...I think they even studied facial expressions...and so one of the things they talk about is bids. So even in our friendship...if you do something...and I can notice that...and pick up on it. How can I then probably talk about accepting an offer or blocking it? I don't have to agree with this, but I noticed this is coming from Sara...so what do I want to do with that? How do I honor that? How do I honor that? 

[00:44:37] Dev: Right. And that gets into psychological wherewithal and healing. 

[00:44:44] David: Totally. 

[00:44:45] Sara: I still I stand by that every human would benefit from doing improv. I think it should be standard.

[00:44:52] Dev: Oh, yeah, absolutely...at the very beginning like in like preschool. I mean kids already know how to play as well...and I feel like our role in the world is helping adults feel like children. Yeah, but also...you know...get em young.

[00:45:14] David: We must think outside the box and possibility...and so when we get caught up in fear...we get in binary thinking either or...so part of what I want to say is maybe some of our final thoughts is...how do we create safe containers...even of two people...and three people...and churches...and communities where we can...people talked about this week...I felt safe here...and there's one game called the yes and superhero...create a superhero bit by bit...and people realize...even if your superhero is carrying two paperclips...we're going to say yes.

And they're not just told we're going to support...they start feeling it viscerally. which I love opening up new avenues as we're closing. That's what Vanderkolk is. The body keeps the score...but there's a quote I want to say is so good. People have endured trauma...whether it's trauma...all caps...trauma...any level of trauma. We need experiences that viscerally contradict...viscerally contradict the helplessness...rage...and collapse felt during trauma. So we need safe spaces where we can have those experiences.

[00:46:24] Dev: Yeah, this has been delightful. Thanks for playing and having real conversations. 

[00:46:33] David: Thank you. That