Travel Trends with Dan Christian
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Travel Trends with Dan Christian
Rail Travel in 2025 Part 1 with Rail Europe
Rail travel is on the rise, transforming into Europe's go-to mode of transportation by seamlessly blending sustainability, luxury, and cutting-edge technology. Join us for an engaging discussion with Bjorn Bender, CEO of Rail Europe, as he sheds light on why train travel is projected to grow from $84 billion to a staggering $128 billion by 2028, outpacing other sectors like river cruising. Bender, a veteran with over two decades in the mobility industry, highlights how rail travel not only enriches travel experiences but also boosts local economies, as train travelers are spending 35% more on hotels and visiting more cities.
What You’ll Learn in This Episode:
• Rail Europe's evolution from its founding in 1930s New York to becoming an independent, neutral platform connecting 200+ European train operators
• Growing popularity of "hidden gems" beyond traditional destinations – including Portugal, Slovenia, Budapest, and secondary cities like Lyon instead of Paris
• Technology innovations creating seamless booking experiences across multiple rail carriers
• How competition between rail providers is driving better pricing and service, with fares starting at just €19 between major cities
• The sustainability advantage of rail travel being 15-20 times greener than car transportation
• Luxury and first-class rail experiences seeing 15-25% annual growth as premium travelers discover the benefits of train travel
• Night trains making a comeback with new comfortable options across major European routes
This episode highlights rail travel’s renaissance as a sustainable, convenient, and authentic alternative to other modes of transportation. Whether you’re a sustainability enthusiast, a fan of premium travel, or simply someone seeking an effortless way to explore Europe, trains offer an unbeatable option for your next adventure.
What journeys could rail travel unlock for you in 2025 and beyond? Tune in and get inspired to see Europe in a whole new way.
👉 Listen to Rail Travel in 2025 Part 1 Now
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I worked in different cultures. You know I worked in Germany and Italy, a couple of years in Switzerland, now in France. And what I see is that the approaches, specifically when we deal with global international teams, the approaches are quite different, but supporting, believing and having a clear objective is, for me, the main thing how we get really people contributing and making them successful at the end.
Speaker 2:Hello everyone and welcome to Travel Trends, season 5, episode 11. This is your host, dan Christian, and we're about to begin our two-part deep dive into the world of rail travel. We just finished our African safari series and a couple of weeks from now we're going to start our guided touring series. But before we do that, I wanted to bring this two-part series together. We're going to speak to the CEO of Rail Europe on today's conversation, bjorn Bender, and then, on part two, we're going to speak to Frank Marini, who is the CEO of Rail Bookers Two equally fascinating conversations, coming at this from two different perspectives.
Speaker 2:Rail Europe, of course, that offers rail tickets all across Europe and the year rail pass that many people are familiar with. Rail bookers offers packaged holidays that combine rail with a package tour, and I think this is where you'll see some interesting insights from both of these conversations about where this industry is headed. I love traveling by rail. I love the experience of arriving in the heart of a destination, I love the fact you get to look out at beautiful landscapes and you get to meet locals, and I just like the whole experience of traveling by train. But when we actually look at the numbers, that's what really excites me and why I wanted to bring this conversation to life, because, if you look at other sectors of travel take, for example, river cruise the entire river cruise industry is about 1.6 billion today and over the next three or four years will likely be around $2 billion, whereas rail travel is about $84 billion today and is expected to grow to about $128 billion in sales by 2028. Expected to grow to about $128 billion in sales by 2028. And there's some interesting differences and nuances, like when you look at the cruise industry. For example, when we did our deep dive in a cruise, most of the money stays with the cruise lines, unlike, say, with adventure travel. You'll hear Shannon Stoll talk about this and that was one of the great ways we kicked off season four with Shannon and we're now doing a quarterly episode with ATCA and Travel Trends and the first episode will be launching shortly, talking about sustainability. But one of the things you'll hear Shannon talk about is the fact that so much of the money that travelers bring stays in the destination, and that's one of the things that rail travel does as well. People are actually twice as likely to visit more cities, they'll spend more on restaurants and, as an average, they'll spend 35% more on hotels, and so rail travel has a greater benefit to the local economy, which totally makes sense. But when you actually think about the growth potential for this market, it is very significant, and that's why I wanted to dive into the trends that are happening within rail Europe and what we're seeing globally. With rail travel, we'll be right back.
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Speaker 2:And now back to the show. We're going to start with this conversation with Bjorn Bender, and, for those of you who aren't familiar with Rail Europe, you're going to learn a lot from this conversation. The part that I certainly didn't know is that Rail Europe was actually founded in New York City in the 1930s, interestingly enough, but the company has continued to innovate and transform, and they are very focused on AI, personalization, sustainability, accessibility, and we're going to get into all of that with our conversation with Bjorn today. I just wanted to make sure that everyone knows that we do post clips and highlights from each of these episodes on all our social channels. So make sure that you are checking us out at Travel Trends Podcast on Instagram, youtube and LinkedIn.
Speaker 2:And then, of course, we send out our monthly newsletter where we summarize all the latest episodes for the month and then we send out an update for our upcoming events and travels for the month ahead, which you can register for at TravelTrendsPodcastcom.
Speaker 2:And one of the things I just wanted to highlight around our events having just come back from the amazing etc. Educational travel consortium conference in mobile, alabama, we'll be launching a special spotlight episode in the next couple of weeks from that conference and next week we're going to be launching a special spotlight on focus right europe, where I will be in june and all of our listeners can get a hundred euro discount if you want to join us and we'll be guaranteed to be featured on an upcoming travel trends podcast. So that's coming up in June and in the month of May. We're going to be at the aviation festival in Miami in early May and then we're going to be at ATTA, the adventure, travel and trade association conference in Denver at the end of May. So check out TravelTrendsPodcastcom slash events for more details about where to find us, but let's dive into rail travel and introduce you to the CEO of Rail Europe, bjorn Bender. Bjorn, thanks so much for joining us on Travel Trends.
Speaker 1:Thanks, dan, for having me Super happy being here, so getting excited.
Speaker 2:Awesome. Well, I think everyone got a good idea about your background from that introduction, but I obviously want people to learn a little bit more right off the top about how such a young and successful guy has risen to this position, and because many of our listeners are making their way up in the industry or looking to advance in the industry, and so I would love if we wouldn't mind, starting the conversation, tell us a bit more about your personal background and what led you to become the CEO of Rail Europe.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so you said young Dan, but yes, I'm actually 20 years already in mobility and innovation, and, yes, it's been a ride, I can say innovation, and yes, it's, it's been a ride, I can say, and um, what is fascinating still for me, of course, is um turning dreams into, into, into real world systems, and this is exactly, uh, what we do today in real europe, and we come to this um a bit later, but what brought me into mobility is really, um, the emotional part on it. You know how to really connect people, how to connect places, and I started in aviation. I worked 15 years for European railway carriers and then I got the opportunity to take over the CEO role. And from my personal background, I always say I'm a German, I live in Switzerland, I work in Paris and I have a Swedish name, so let's call me a European, and this is maybe already a good starting point for our discussion.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I mean we've got such a global audience. I mean there's listeners now in 125 countries and we're so proud, as we're in Season 5, that we've become the most popular B2B podcast globally and we've never focused on rail before. So this is actually exciting for me because I love traveling by rail. I love European rail in particular. I wish Canada had put more infrastructure and the US eventually with high-speed rail. So I've got so many questions for you. But, given this role, how did you actually get into rail itself? Was it always a passion for you?
Speaker 1:Actually it was by chance, as I said.
Speaker 1:So I started really in my studies in university with, let's say, business administration, majoring mobility or transport as it was called back in the days, and of course I wanted to start, you know, in the sexy part of the mobility industry.
Speaker 1:So it was aviation and I started for an airline and and then when I really got my first opportunity in Deutsche Bahn, so the German railways, it was 27. I must say this part of the mobility industry was almost dying. So no one was putting a cent or a dollar on rail at this time, not even in Europe. And I had the chance to take over fascinating roles in this railway company, so going into international sales, going into new mobility, going into innovation. And during the 15 years I worked for the state on carriers, the picture changed completely, you know, not only because, of course, the needs of the society changed so climate change, all of this COVID hit, etc. But also of course, specifically in Europe, we look completely different on the rail part today and I got more and more fascinated about the backbone of the mobility industry and what rail can really solve in terms of problems we face but also bring in terms of added value to our day-to-day life.
Speaker 2:That's great. Well, I know the company now is nearly 100 years old. Here we are in 2025, and it goes all the way back to the 1930s. And I think one of the things I came to understand as I was doing some research and preparing for our conversation is that the concept for Rail Europe was very much designed to serve an international traveler market coming into Europe. Clearly, obviously, the rails are primarily designed for transport within Europe itself. I mean, you yourself obviously live in Switzerland, commute to Paris, so there's so many great uses for rail, but one of them, as that relates to, obviously, travel trends, is international travelers. So tell us a little bit more, I guess, about the legacy of Rail Europe.
Speaker 1:And then, if you wouldn't mind, how that actually relates to kind of the modern innovation and trends that you need are need to adapt your business to in in travel. Yeah, absolutely so. As you said correctly, then, the company was founded in the 30s of the last century, actually in the us uh, outside of new york city. So we always say we have the 1930s heritage and we have the 2030s mindset and, of course, it's a bit clear when we look back on 100 years that there is legacy.
Speaker 2:Yes, On the other side.
Speaker 1:We belonged for almost the entire period to a state-owned carrier called SNCF, so the French Railways and Rail Europe got independent exactly three years back. So since 2022, we are private equity backed and we are a global, neutral, agnostic train ticket platform for European train travel. It was already the case before, but, of course, if you belong to one specific carrier, it's always different than being a complete neutral and independent platform.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's fascinating. So tell us then, given that US connection, when you are running a global business but based in Europe, where are you seeing your travelers primarily coming from? What markets are you? I know you've got like 200 operators, you've got this massive network to manage, but, yeah, how does it work in terms of the types of customers and where they're coming from?
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly. Let me add this quickly what you said Exactly. We are, let's say, combining 200 trained providers on one platform and, of course, specifically when it comes to cross-border travels, to international travels, to multinational travels, we are talking about a patchwork of different railway systems in Europe. So it's getting quite fast, quite complex from the consumer perspective, and we always say we are kind of the translator of the harmonizer, of the broker in between to make train travel as easy as possible.
Speaker 1:And when we talk about the US we are talking already about our number one market and maybe it's a bit about our history, but it's of course, because the travel demand into Europe out of the US is that high and particularly Americans want to see different destinations, different countries within a couple of days, or let's say one or two weeks when they travel to Europe. So, yes, we sell today still 35, 40% of our business, of our tickets in the US.
Speaker 2:Fascinating. And then what about B2B versus B2C? How important are travel agents versus independent travelers? Because obviously you've got a great e-commerce booking platform, so I'm assuming you're driving a lot of direct business. But how do you, I guess, balance both of those interests?
Speaker 1:Yeah, super important is the B2B network, because we are really, from our DNA, let's say, b2b company. We were always looking on the travel consultants, on the travel advisors, particularly also in the US. We do have several products for the B2B part and it's still two third. One third, to answer your question very direct. So two-third of our business is still B2B. Yes, with a growing part, with an increasing part for the direct consumer side, but only talking about the ratio, not talking about the absolute numbers. So the connection to the industry, particularly when it comes to international travel, where a lot of education is important, where a lot of travel planning is necessary, is very important.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's fascinating to me. I mean it makes total sense. I mean there's been such a revival of travel advisors in the trade, despite their predicted demise over the last 20 years, and they have become more important than ever, almost post-COVID for many reasons.
Speaker 2:So many companies like yourself that actually have those partnerships have been able to flourish by them. So I'd love to know, just in 2025 with rail travel, when you mentioned the two-thirds one-third? Obviously I always look at business growth as it's not a zero-sum game. Clearly you want to grow B2B and you want to grow B2C. Where are you seeing the growth and how significant is the growth for rail europe in 2025?
Speaker 1:yeah. So we really need to, we really need to separate, uh, two perspectives because, um, of course, the b2b part is still increasing, but what we see is a more and more mature audience traveling to europe. So we don't have only the first timers anymore. They want to see I don't know London, paris, rome, amsterdam, so the classical spots. Now we see, of course, a high demand for let's call it tier two cities in Europe, hidden gems maybe it's a better wording and, of course, a more mature target group and more independent target group. So even people let's stick to the US example maybe booked a package in the past with hotel and flight through a tour operator. They are booking independently today their flight, their hotels and their train tickets. And if you look on us, we see a 20% growth last year, so 24 compared to 23. And this is pretty similar when we look on the increase out of the American market into Europe. So you see an increase by 15, 17, 18%. It depends on the perspective, on overall travel numbers.
Speaker 2:Right, there's a question there. I definitely want to ask you about the hidden gems. I'm going to come back to that in just a moment, because one of the things I actually think it would be, worth noting for our listeners is for them to understand the competitive landscape.
Speaker 2:And when my wife and I traveled through Europe, obviously we got our Eurorail passes and we went on and we had the most extraordinary time, which is why I have such a positive association of European rail travel, and it is a romantic way to travel. People had said to me a number of times before we went make sure you sleep on a train or get some sleeper trains, because you'll have the best sleep of your life. It's like you're being in the womb again because you just hear the pulsing of, like your mother's heartbeat. And that was all these things that people talked up the train and you know what. They were right. It's like it is a sensational way to travel and I know it's becoming more and more relevant, giving sustainability and some of the things we should talk about there.
Speaker 2:But when we think of, or when someone like myself is thinking about, traveling to Europe. What are the options for them? I know, beyond rail Europe, clearly you have competitors, so like the Eurail pass, for example, how? What is that? What is the competitive landscape look like for you?
Speaker 1:Yeah, thanks for highlighting already the Eurail experience. The Eurail experience, then, it's the best way to point it out, because, you know, sometimes it's even difficult to understand for our B2B partners or even for end consumers that we have different kind of products. And the separation, or maybe the two different aspects between a point-to-point ticket where you buy I don't know a Eurostar ticket from London to Paris, compared to a Eurail pass. It's a completely different product in the way you sell it, in the way of the length of the travel duration, but also, of course, what you need in addition, because I don't know if you can remember, but if you have a Eurail pass, there are open systems in Europe where you can just enter a train, like in Germany, in Austria, in Switzerland, you can just board a train with the Euril Pass and you can travel wherever you want to go In France, in the UK, in Spain, italy. It's completely different because it works like an airline system. So you need to have a seat reservation. A train can be fully booked and there's no possibility to stand maybe, so you need to get a reservation. You need to have a seat reservation. A train can be fully booked and there's no possibility to stand, maybe. So you need to get a reservation, you need to queue at a train station.
Speaker 1:So this is the part where the customer pain is still high, and selling a pass is one part of the journey, but selling also reservations in addition, giving information about the travel lengths.
Speaker 1:In addition, giving information about the travel lengths, but also what you just said, maybe it's the most romantic part of a journey in Europe. Yes, you can also decide where to go or what kind of journey you take to get to your destination and, yes, there are plenty of competitors. But at the end, I guess what makes the difference for us is how we accompany our partners and customers, specifically from the customer care perspective. So before the journey, during the journey and after the journey and when you remember I guess all of us we already experienced the bad side of travel. So missing trains, having delays, dealing with refunds, waiting for refunds for weeks and months you know being in good hands and being with someone who understands the needs from the international perspective. This makes the difference. So we invest beyond technology and AI and maybe we can talk a bit this later we invest still a lot in human support and accompanying them throughout the entire journey.
Speaker 2:Well, let's actually talk about the tech side. I want to come back to the hidden journeys, and definitely we'll talk about AI, for sure, and I'd really obviously want to talk about sustainability, just given how one of the drivers, obviously of rail travel's popularity, and even myself going to conferences, they're encouraging me to take rail, and so I definitely want to highlight that. But one of the things that you guys are known for, as I understand, is your technology, and so many travel companies are not technology companies, but Rail Europe is considered to be a global travel tech company, which I found fascinating, and so tell us a little bit about your journey on technology. I mean, your website is very impressive, but tell us how you know, because it's really it's the back end. I mean, user journey is one thing but like ticket booketing.
Speaker 2:So yeah, tell us how you've transformed this business to actually really be able to be at the front leading edge of technology.
Speaker 1:Yeah, we always say sustainability via tech, and this means, for me, tech makes it simple and rail makes it sustainable.
Speaker 1:And this duo, we play with it every day and I'm proud of how we are using data and AI to reduce friction, to really reduce friction and support this kind of greener future. And what does it mean in concrete is that we harmonize the inventory of, as I said, 200 trained providers into one technology back end platform and we provide the entire inventory through one API to our B2B customers. So everything you find for the entire European railway network you have in one API and then it's up to you if you integrate it into your business, so meaning into your own website, into your packaging system, if you combine it with hotels and flights, or if you use it standalone. And for this, specifically for travel agencies, we offer our rail portal. It's a travel trade website, cloud-based. Obviously, it's mainly linked to the backend and we invest millions of euros to develop the backend, to have the most seamless API, the fastest API and the easiest to integrate, and this is our benchmark.
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Speaker 1:I'm actually.
Speaker 2:I'm going to be speaking in Germany, I'm going to speak in Berlin at ITB on hidden gems, and I'm going to be taking the train. I'm going was looking at the different train routes that I can take from Monaco to Berlin, because I'm committed to taking the train, not only because, obviously partly because it's more sustainable, but I would say, primarily because I enjoy the experience. So I'll have to ask you on the best routing and where I should stop on the way, because I have a weekend I finish on the Friday, yeah, and I don't have to be in Berlin until the Monday. So I started, I got myself all excited, looking at ways I could get there. So tell our audience, if you wouldn't mind, what are some of the hidden gems, whether cities or places in Europe that people are looking to experience in 2025 or that are figuring out for themselves. So, yeah, tell us these hidden gems, please, bjorn.
Speaker 1:Yeah. So maybe let's start with the most preferred destinations first. Everyone gets the same understanding. So when we talk about Europe and we talk about incoming from overseas, we still talk about the UK, France, Italy, Spain. So those destinations remain the top choices, top choices for non-European travelers. But what we see is and this is maybe a bit linked to the hidden gems or, let's say, regions and cities which are getting more popular. We are talking about Portugal. We are talking about Slovenia with a wonderful capital, Ljubljana. We are talking about the Nordics. We are talking about when you are in.
Speaker 1:Vienna and many of our customers are visiting Vienna you can go beyond to Budapest in Hungary are visiting Vienna. You can go beyond, to Budapest in Hungary. So, you know, looking into, let's say, more cultural highlights, looking into the beauty of the nature beyond the well-known destinations in Europe and, of course, getting, let's say, off the beaten tracks in terms of the busy tourism season, specifically during the summertime. So this is what we see more and more and therefore we talk about technology and we talk about the 200 carriers, but we still have some white points on our European map. So we are working with our teams to get everything done specifically in Eastern Europe, specifically in Portugal and specifically in the Nordics.
Speaker 1:And when you talk about Hidden Gems, maybe one addition, of course, you find Hidden Gems also in the most popular destinations. So we see people not going anymore to Paris, they want to go to Lyon. We see people not going anymore only to Amsterdam. They want to go to Lyon. We see people not going anymore only to Amsterdam. They go to Den Haag. So going into the city next by is also very, very popular, specifically for Americans.
Speaker 2:Very interesting. Okay, there's a few good tips there and I'm going to come back to you after our chat, for some suggestions for my weekend in Europe.
Speaker 1:I'm not sure then if I get everything in one weekend for you, but I try.
Speaker 2:I appreciate that Well maybe I can use AI to customize an itinerary. So let's talk about that, because you brought that up. As it relates to technology and certainly one of the things, we had an AI summit last year. Many people are still watching the videos from those sessions that are almost a year old now, but they hold up even though things have evolved so much and we're actually going to be announcing an event shortly. So TravelTrendsPodcastcom for our listeners, you can find out more information about our AI summit for 2025. But I wanted to ask you about your integration of AI and how you're leveraging it at Rail Europe. So would you mind sharing a couple of ways, because certainly I was just going to just set the stage for that Bjorn In 2025, we're seeing that a lot of travelers are using it for itinerary planning and also this question now of getting close to the booking, like that. How can they actually get an itinerary and then make it bookable? So, yeah, tell us how you guys are leveraging AI.
Speaker 1:So let me start with that. I'm not you know I'm not the biggest fan of putting all the buzzwords yeah, in the front of the discussion like an ai.
Speaker 1:Of course, we know this. Without ai, no, no, no chance to succeed. But talking about ai is not enough, and talking about agility the last 10 years is also not enough. So what does it mean for us? It means really using technology in the way we need it for personalization, for efficiency, for smarter journeys, as you just said in your example and this is maybe, from my perspective, where mobility can really meet magic, because tech will turn this complexity into simplicity and this is all about.
Speaker 1:You know, our slogan is making train travel easy and of course, we can do it manually and we can try hard by coding every day. But we can use AI, to stick to this example now, in different ways. Of course, we use it for internal processes, as I would say every company is doing it now for I don't know for communications, for marketing, for coding, for everything where we can leverage on. On the other side, we need to use it for predicting what customers are expecting from us and specifically when it comes to profiles we know and retention, or returning customers, then there's a big, big, big upside potential when we use AI in the customer care part. You wanted to add something, huh, I stop here.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's perfect. I mean, our conversation is so much more robust than just AI, so I don't want to spend too much time on just this topic and technology, because there's so many other wonderful things to be able to discuss together. I just wanted to highlight if there were certain developments that you were rolling out this year, because there certainly is a number of companies that are trying to figure. The one area we've certainly seen is customer service. People are introducing chatbots. That's obviously been a very common use case. One of the other things that companies are obviously trying to do is make sure that they're discoverable on AI, because it's becoming much more important to make sure that your brand is being indexed like it used to be with SEO. So I'm sure there's a number of initiatives you have underway.
Speaker 1:So I just wanted to be able to kind of showcase a few of those. If you had a couple, and maybe if I can add this, then I did not even mention our chatbot.
Speaker 2:Of course we also have a chatbot based on AI, but you know, this is already kind of history.
Speaker 1:for me. The next step is definitely data, data, data and data is not new. We are talking about data in the industry for the last 20 years, but now taking data and AI together to a result which really impacts the customer experience. This is what we work on and there's still a very, very long way to go.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, well, let's switch gears entirely and go back to sustainability. So we've talked about AI in the future, because people will tell you right away. Here's the interesting stat and I'm sure you've is that the power it takes to generate an AI search is seven times greater than it takes to conduct a Google search. And so there's actually a question about the and you've probably seen these talk about data centers, and these tech companies are now investing in nuclear power, like there's this question about Canada could become relevant with our cold water to be able to host these data centers that run so hot and require so much energy. So let's talk about how Rail Europe can offset that by making sure people travel more sustainably. So tell us actually I guess that's the one thing that I'd be keen for everyone to understand is how is rail travel more sustainable and why are people choosing it for that reason?
Speaker 1:I mean, if you compare all the existing studies, it's between 15 and 20 times more sustainable than taking a car. Of course, when we talk about flights, it's even worse. But what is important for me when we talk about sustainability in the rail sector?
Speaker 1:you know we are kind of already on the green side or on the good side of the industry.
Speaker 1:You know, everyone is imagining that rail travel is, of course, reducing the carbon emissions, et cetera, et cetera, and what is important for me is, of course, that we leverage on this. There is an increasing target group. Jen said beyond what is really looking into the most sustainable way of traveling, and, of course, this is a huge opportunity for the industry. On the other side, we are talking about sustainability, then, but there's an attitude action gap which is huge, and we know that when it comes to the real reasons where someone is choosing a specific mode of transport, sustainability, it depends on the country and the region. It's between number six, seven and eight, and the top three remain the same. It's between number six, seven and eight, and the top three remain the same. It's price, safety and convenience. And this is exactly what we are looking on, because we are a distributor. We cannot change the price, we cannot change the safety, or we cannot improve the safety, but we can increase the convenience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's fascinating and clearly I mean this is where not only having the opportunity to have the built-in network, if you've got the infrastructure in place where people can get to and from destinations. When I was invited to speak at this conference in Quebec City, which I'm really looking forward to, they asked me to take the train and I looked at the option in Toronto to Quebec City. I mean, it's like an eight-hour drive, but it's like 14 hours on the train and I was like I can't, I can't spend two days on a train. I would love to, but I just and so. But in Europe it's far more practical and I hope it becomes that here. But, um, how do you compete based on sustainability when it comes to, you know, knowing that there is a rising interest from consumers, but one of
Speaker 2:the things I always ask our guests on our show. I asked them about sustainability and often they tell me that it's not really a reason why someone ultimately decides initially to travel with you. But it's often a reason why people come back is because they see if they're going to continue and clearly rail travel is something you're going to use frequently and I know some of the airlines in Europe too have been kind of forced to kind of cut their short flights. So tell us a little bit more about that and how it works, because I think that would be interesting to our audience.
Speaker 1:I completely agree that most of the people are not traveling by rail because it's the sustainable mode, but the advantages are increasing. You know, and take this example now, traveling city center to city center, london, paris is a wonderful example. You take the Eurostar two hours 30, and then you have, of course, the benefits by taking a train. And if you go to Heathrow and you end up in Charles de Gaulle and you have each way a two-hour drive to the airport, I mean, this drives you crazy. So we need to take the existing advantages to bring people into the most sustainable way of traveling.
Speaker 1:This is first my part. Then we see, and this is proven by our agencies we introduced a multi-provider feature, so it means an agent working with our software can combine two different carriers into one booking. So let's take the EURSA example again, but not only London, paris, let's say London, frankfurt, and this person changed the train in Brussels or Paris and taking another train and this combined in one booking, in one itinerary, in one payment process, leads agents to the point that they sell train, otherwise they would sell a flight, you know. So this is a good example where technology really impacts the way we travel, and it's not only, I agree, the customer decision. It's the way we provide this kind of product.
Speaker 2:Right, yeah, that's really interesting. The other thing I wanted to ask you about, too, you were mentioning about some of the hidden gems, and it's the different styles of travel. So, moving beyond sustainability, just looking at the fact that, ultimately, people just want to enjoy their holiday, especially if we're talking about people that are coming to Europe for the first time, the reality is that it's very practical, very efficient way to get around Europe, in addition to all the other benefits that we've both shared here. But when you look at how people are traveling today, there's obviously there's more luxury travelers that we've certainly seen that as a major trend. There's much more affluent travelers that are looking for luxury. They're looking for tailor made trips, and so what do you see in terms of the actual product experience with either luxury rail or these tailored vacations? What are you seeing gaining traction and, I guess, how are you expanding your product offerings to address that?
Speaker 1:expanding your product offerings to address that? Yeah, I mean look, look, exactly what you just said. Um, the demand for first class, specifically for international travelers, increased a lot yearly between 15 and 25 percent yearly increase for first class travel.
Speaker 2:It's it's really impressive to see.
Speaker 1:Second is, of course, you have new offers. You're're not taking the Berlin-Paris day train, for instance, just introduced in December. Now you can travel from Paris-Berlin or the other way around in a day train. Before it was partially in a night train or not possible at all. In one journey and this is maybe the biggest change you can book in advance 12 months. So the booking horizon change. Now you're looking more like an airline on the entire setup.
Speaker 1:Before it was quite challenging because some carriers only offered three to six months booking horizon and for international travelers they book sometimes you know this six, nine, 10 months in advance. Impossible to get the train ticket. So what do they do? They book the flight. You know, and this is also impacting. You mentioned night trains, dan. Night trains is an increasing part of the European rail system and you have plenty of new offers available to Prague, to Amsterdam, to Berlin, etc. But it takes time, you know, because the industry did not invest into this part for quite a while, and to get the rolling stock back, to get modern trains, to get the infrastructure, to get the slots, it takes years. But it's also increasing stepwise and we will see a complete different offer every December, when the timetable change is upcoming.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's very interesting. I'm glad to hear that the night trains are increasing in popularity Because, you know, just highlighting that is like it's one of those reasons that people may not choose to take a train ride is because it's overnight, like seen as a pain point or frustration. But obviously the clear frustration for me is waiting is getting to an airport, waiting two hours at the airport, and the best example that you just provided for sure from my experience, is the Eurostar. I love taking the Eurostar to and from Paris, from London, and I've taken that trip multiple times. And even one colleague said to me oh, you just need to get there half an hour before, and I almost got tripped up on that because you still need to pass customs. So there still is. They still recommend getting there an hour before, but even still, there'll be the next train coming up. So you also have the frequency of trains running back and forth.
Speaker 2:If, for any reason, you did, you missed your train. But and so I guess this. I find this really intriguing because I love the whole experience, the in terms of how you guys are adapting for customers, because one of the things that well, whether it's-end customers or just frequent travelers, when it comes to the passes they can buy. What are some of the things that I guess you're adapting to to make the experience more personalized and more interesting? How does the rail pass system work today? Because I haven't. It's been a few years for me, and we used to have this packet of tickets and then we could decide which ones we use it on, and we tried to do the math to figure out was it worth using one of our 10 passes today based on the cost of the train ride.
Speaker 1:So tell us a little bit about how, how, how that works. Yeah, I mean, I mean the past product itself did not change. Luckily it did not change then. But of course what we build around um is changing, uh, dramatically in a positive, in a positive sense.
Speaker 1:Um, you know, you, you need to imagine we do have roughly 11,000 kilometers high-speed rail in Europe. So let's say, what is it? 7,000 miles? And of course you can travel Eurostar, you can travel ICE TGV quite fast, 250 kilometers per hour on a pass. This is comfortable, but you need to have a reservation. We can sell the reservation, we can give all the travel information needed, et cetera.
Speaker 1:But on the same holidays or maybe one day later, you want to experience a panoramic train in Switzerland and you want to cruise through the Alps or along the lake or whatever.
Speaker 1:So it's a completely different journey because we're not talking about high speed anymore, we're talking about a different train class, windows, a different experience, maybe from lunch or dinner on the train. So every service starting from us but not ending with us, also with the carriers changed a lot, changed a lot. Now we are not only looking into Classy Express, bernernina express, which are very popular still, obviously, in switzerland, but you have so many smaller ones, um, um, maybe creating almost the same experience, and specifically in high season, you know, for non-europeans there are plenty of options to take a train. Um, as I said, one day night train, the second day high speed and the third day you do a panoramic journey in Austria, switzerland or France, and this combined in one, let's say, travel experience, starting with the distribution part and giving the information, giving all the tickets needed and even lifetime or real-time information. This is our job and this is where we invested a lot and probably the product you experienced changed in a positive way.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely Well, it's so interesting. I mean, when I was looking at my trip and I was seeing some of the new direct like you've got a new direct Berlin to Paris in eight hours and I was looking at some of the most popular destinations which are clearly between major hubs. So one of the things I was going to ask you, but clearly they're.
Speaker 2:You know, paris to London, London to Edinburgh, paris to Amsterdam, barcelona, like you've got, obviously, all the key destinations in Western Europe. I know there's a couple of countries you don't go to, like Portugal or Ireland, because obviously that's you'd have to build another tunnel to get there, but you, you clearly go everywhere pretty much in Western Europe and I guess I'd love to understand, uh, high speed rail and how that factors in, cause I was always, when we took our trip, we were always trying to figure out taking one of the high speed trains. So tell us, um, where for all of our listeners, cause many of them wouldn't know, and I I'm not clear on it myself when are the high speed trains and are those being further introduced?
Speaker 1:yeah, um, yes, they are further introduced and you know, take, take this example of liberalization. Maybe it's a good example. Um, in europe, the markets are open for 20 years now, so every competitor can run trains in every european country. But it started. So the competition started maybe five, seven, nine years back. And now, when you look into Spain and take this Madrid Barcelona example, you have four, four high-speed carriers competing to each other. So you have the same circumstances as we have in aviation for years.
Speaker 1:So, and it means a customer can choose. I mean, all are high-speed, first of all, but they can choose on the product. They want to have more luxury, less luxury, the timing, loyalty programs, and you'll find really terrorists starting from 19 euros. So one, one, nine connecting Barcelona and Madrid, and you have the same in Italy. When you look into Rome and Milan, for example, you have two high-speed carriers. You have the same in Austria, you have more and more the same in Germany and in France, upcoming competition.
Speaker 1:So, yes, there is a lot of more high speed in terms of infrastructure because the European Union, all the countries, all the railway carriers are investing billions, in part of or under the umbrella of the European Green Deal until 2030 in infrastructure, but on the other side, you have plenty of investments into rolling stock from new private carriers upcoming and competing against the state-owned ones or the incumbents, and this leads, of course, to a better experience, or a customer experience at the end, because prices are getting cheaper, the quality is getting higher and, of course, the offers are getting more and more. So this picture is completely changing, and this is since I work in the industry and I said in the beginning, for 20 years. For me personally, it's the first time we can really change the mobility landscape in Europe and hopefully being a kind of a role model globally.
Speaker 2:That's fascinating. Actually, when you say mobility, the one thing that always comes to mind is accessibility, and actually there's a number of startups and a number of interesting businesses that have been launched Trans Report in the UK, for example. They focused on accessibility, and I found this quite fascinating because I work with a lot of travel startups, and there's a company called Wheel the World, and it's not a company I work with, but one I've become intrigued by, because there's three founders. One of them was in a car accident. They're close friends and all of a sudden it kind of opened their eyes to the fact that it is a real challenge for people with disabilities to be able to travel. And so actually you prompted a really great question there, which I'd love to ask you for the listeners that either have disabilities or know someone with them and they still want to go to Europe and do an amazing rail trip if they're in a wheelchair or so how do you actually approach that?
Speaker 1:that would I'd be keen to know yeah, so we service them in the best way we can, meaning we providing everything what the carriers are offering. You know we cannot, of course, we have no additional service for, for for people who are not able to I don't't know to take stairs, etc. But in almost every station, almost every carrier is providing additional services. You can book in advance and of course, we do this as well. And the inclusive part, or the inclusion in general, is a very, very important one, specifically in Europe, as you know, because you have all the laws and all the perspectives, specifically when it comes to public transport, that it needs to be easier than individual transport, specifically for disabled people. So absolutely, absolutely in the focus and we have plenty of international travelers really traveling by train with disabilities- We'll be right back.
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Speaker 1:Obviously you're well-spoken, you're well-educated, you've risen up in the industry, but one of the things that we often don't talk about is the challenges we face along the way, and so I would love if you wouldn't mind sharing, like what, one of the biggest lessons you've learned in your role or your journey to become CEO that you might be able to be keen to share or impart to other people that are kind of on their way up in the in the travel industry. Yeah, thanks. Thanks for asking this question, dan, because, yes, I learned plenty of sessions and we have challenges and problems every day and we are failing every day. So this is, I guess, most important. What I learned is that, from the management perspective, or C-level perspective, it's on us to provide the right frame and, in the frame, to give as much freedom as possible to our team. So meaning, empower teams, trust them, giving really the freedom to find their own ways.
Speaker 1:And I worked in different cultures, you know, I worked in Germany and Italy, a couple of years in Switzerland, now in France, and what I see is that the approaches, specifically when we deal with global international teams we have more than 14 nationalities in our company and, just to give you a feel, the approaches are quite different. But supporting, believing and having a clear objective is, for me, the main thing how we get really people contributing and making them successful at the end. So this is my philosophy. So it means a lot on coaching, a lot on feedback, but with a very clear frame. Because agility, I was working in innovation, I said in the beginning. Then you know, and many people interpreted, in agility, everyone can do what he or she wants to do. This is not true. So the frame and the direction and the objective need to be clear, the purpose needs to be clear and then it's just about empowering.
Speaker 2:That's great. I appreciate you sharing that advice. And the other thing I wanted to ask you too, given there may be a lot of misunderstanding about train travel in Europe, especially for North American travelers. So if there's one thing that you keep coming up against all the time about people misunderstanding train travel in Europe, what would it be and how do you address that at Rail Europe so that we hopefully we can clear up a lot of things here that either our listeners are going to now know or tell someone else, so that you don't get that question directly.
Speaker 1:No, I mean, first of all, we are very happy about this. Of course, specifically international travelers see rail europe, so our company as the operator. So and yes, we are not the operator, we are the distributor and we are the platform in between. So this is maybe important for everyone, specifically on the b2b side, to understand what to expect from us. But more more seriously then, um, I guess rail travel in europe it's really all about education, because it's not only the. It's really all about education because it's not only the US.
Speaker 1:It's when you come from Asia, when you come from Africa, specifically when you come from APEC, you have a complete different understanding of what rail travel means. And of course, I'm not saying that in other regions trains are not attractive. Specifically, when you look into Asia, there are certain very good examples, but what you can do with trains on a very small continent, like in Europe, this is not understood in different ways. So we really need to educate how close and you mentioned it before you can get, or how fast you can get from Paris to London, to Brussels, to Amsterdam, to Frankfurt. This is like you would go in the US from New York to Boston, and this kind of education we need to bring into our services, but specifically need to educate still the entire travel community to get the right messages transferred.
Speaker 2:Very interesting. All right, that's really fascinating and I think a good call out that you're not the operator and so if the train's delayed, you know there's only so much we can help, but we cannot solve Right, exactly yeah.
Speaker 2:No important clarification. Well, there's a couple last questions I had for you. One I wanted to ask you about your vision for the future and where you see rail Europe and if anything like rail travel as a whole, in 2030. I know there keeps being talk in the US about these high speed trains. I lived in LA for the last few years, so there was the big talk about LA to San Francisco. A lot of these initiatives just haven't got off the ground. But obviously you have a clearer view in Europe and there's a lot more opportunity to embrace the infrastructure and the build-out. So, yeah, tell us how you see what the travel by rail looks like five years from now in Europe. Is it more high speed? Is it more seamless technology? What's the experience and what's your vision?
Speaker 1:I mean we can really make it very, very simple, because the vision drives me is that trains will lead short, maybe even mid-haul travel. It's quite easy and what we see now in changing the model split, for instance, and how Europe we discussed that before is investing into this. There's a big, big chance and, yes, we see more high speed we see more sustainable ways to travel, and it's on seamless systems.
Speaker 1:Because what I do not believe in, then and maybe this is the downside of this is that we will have one completely standardized rail system by 2030. Let's take this example. So it needs this kind of intermediary to make it simple, and this is on us, but the chance was never that big as it is today.
Speaker 2:Interesting. Well, and the other thing I'd love to ask you as well, because I'm sure you have many great train stories, but I would really like to hear one of your favorite train travel stories, if you wouldn't mind sharing one with us, Bjorn.
Speaker 1:I mean, I have different ones, but usually, you know, as you said before, I commute between Switzerland and Paris on a weekly basis, so I'm a heavy user. I traveled more than 100,000 kilometers on trains last year, more than 100,000 kilometers and what I usually do is, when I sit next to customers or next to passengers, actually I ask them and I try to get into a conversation, of course, where do they book their train tickets? And last year it was a Korean family actually traveling to Paris and I asked them okay, where did you book your tickets? And they answered they booked it with Rail Europe. And then, of course, we got into the conversation and we ended up and they had a couple of good advices and hints and so on, and they said to me okay, when you know someone, please pass this feedback to the team. And of course, at the very end, I said who I am. When you know someone, please pass this feedback to the team. And, of course, at the very end, I said who I am.
Speaker 1:But you know, having this kind of conversation, bringing people together talking about this time rail tickets, but you could also talk about football or your next holidays this is what I love by sitting in trains, sitting in trains and more from a from a train journey perspective. Um, actually I love to commute to Paris because it's my, it's my rolling office and if you, if you, if, if you, if you know how to organize yourself, you can really, really make the most out of this time. And, uh, I would not like to miss those I don't know 10 hours every weekend. Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 2:No, that's great. I appreciate you sharing that and did you reveal to that Korean family? You are the CEO of Rail.
Speaker 1:Europe At the end? Yes, at the end, yes, but it's much better to get feedback before you mention this.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly, otherwise you're just going to become the complaint department, right away.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, no, that's great. No-transcript. Um. Very, very happy to have this discussion with you, dan. Very, very interesting uh topics we covered. If someone wants to reach out to me, linkedin is the best channel and let's be all ambassadors for rail travel in Europe. But first of all, getting to Europe.
Speaker 2:Absolutely no. I totally agree. I'm a big fan of rail and that's why I was thrilled to have this conversation with you. So, yeah, great to meet you and I definitely will be following up with some suggestions for that trip because I'm sure you'll have. I need to find a hidden gem on the way to present about hidden gems.
Speaker 1:So that would be, that would be perfect.
Speaker 2:But no, thank you, bjorn. I would wanted to wish you well, the team well and every success for 2025 and beyond. Thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 1:Thanks, I really appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much for joining us on the latest episode of Travel Trends. I hope you enjoyed this part one of rail travel focused on rail Europe with Bjorn Bender. Next week, we're going to bring you the conversation with Frank Marini, the CEO of Railbookers, so stay tuned for that and make sure that you're subscribed on the streaming platform of your choice. And remember we post clips and highlights on all of our social channels, which is YouTube, linkedin and Instagram, and then we send out a monthly update of all of our episodes so you can register at TravelTrendsPodcastcom for not only the latest summary of shows, but also our upcoming travels as well.
Speaker 2:And, as I mentioned at the beginning, we've got a lot more events coming up. We're at the Aviation Festival in May. We in Miami, we're going to be at the ATTA conference in Denver at the end of May and then the Focusrite conference in June, and all those details are on our website and you can also get 100 euros off for Focusrite Europe by using the link, and one of the commitments I've made to them and to you is that anyone who uses that will be featured on our Travel Trends podcast when I'm recording there live in Barcelona in June. So make sure that you check us out on the website, the social channels, and look forward to having you join us on our episode next week with Frank Marini from Railbookers. Until then, safe travels.
