Travel Trends with Dan Christian
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Uncover valuable insights, innovative strategies, and meaningful connections that will elevate your travel business or career to new heights.
Travel Trends with Dan Christian
Small Groups, Big Adventures with Michael Edwards, MD, Explore Worldwide
Listen to the latest episode of our Guided Touring series, where Dan is joined by Michael Edwards, Managing Director at Explore Worldwide, to discuss the rising popularity of small group adventures. Michael shares why he calls this moment the “golden age” of small group travel and highlights how intimate group sizes (12-16 people) foster meaningful "micro-communities," delivering the connection and camaraderie so many crave today.
What You'll Learn:
- Why small groups are creating big travel impact
- How shared experiences foster instant community
- Explore’s approach to sustainability and responsible tourism
- Breaking down barriers to make adventure travel more inclusive
- The surprising truth about who today’s adventure travelers really are
This episode is packed with insights on how small group travel is evolving and why it’s more relevant than ever. Tune in now to learn how these adventures are redefining the way we explore the world.
👉 Listen to Small Groups, Big Adventures Now
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the thing that I'd like to see change in the next 10 years and I hope we see this change. We're talking about this rise of small group travel, right, and, but we're talking about broadly, you know, middle class english speaking generally, you know, non, not particularly diverse group of people going on these trips and I would like to see that change. You know, I would like to see that change. I would like to think, in 10 years' time, our style of travel is not just open, but is a real option for people from more diverse cultures and languages.
Speaker 2:Hello everyone and welcome to Travel Trends. This is your host, dan Christian. I'm excited to continue our deep dive into the world of guided travel, and over the last couple of episodes we've heard from Globus, we heard last week from Colette and today we're going to hear from an adventure travel company, explore Now. Explore Worldwide is based in London and run by Michael Edwards, who I had the privilege to work with at G Adventures. He went on to Intrepid from there and so he is a real adventure category expert, as you'll hear from our discussion today. And I'm really looking forward to this conversation because we've also just launched our adventure series in partnership with our friends at the Adventure Travel and Trade Association.
Speaker 2:As most of our listeners know, we did a season four deep dive into the world of adventure and Shannon Stoll joined us for that first conversation. So we are producing a quarterly series together to continue to focus on the world of adventure travel. So you can find out more information about that at TravelTransPodcastcom or at AdventureTravelbiz. And our first episode just went live this week to celebrate Earth Day, where we focused on sustainability and brought in the CEO of Tourism Cares, Greg Takahara. So be sure to check that one out. And then the other mention, just before we kick off this next episode of our adventure series with Michael Edwards, is that we are doing a series of spotlight episodes, and one of the things that we have heard a lot from our listeners is they want us to do even more timely and topical news content to highlight what's happening in the travel industry, and so at the beginning of each month we're going to have a special spotlight that will kick off in May, highlighting some of the big developments that are happening across our industry and bringing various voices to those conversations. I'm certainly looking forward to bringing those to life. So this is where the feedback that we get from our listeners is incredibly valuable to shape the content. So feel free to keep those coming, and you can always email me directly, dan, at traveltrendspodcastcom, so look out for some of those spotlight episodes. Of course, we also have our partnership with Forbes, a travel guide rolling out at the moment. We're just midway through our 10-part series, the Leaders Behind the Stars, so be sure to check those out every Thursday. And then we're going to continue our spotlight episodes with various executives, startups, destination spotlights we have one coming up on Columbia shortly, and then we'll be doing this quarterly series in partnership with ATTA.
Speaker 2:And now, one other thing just to mention is that, as part of our commitment to sending out updates on what's happening within the travel industry, we have incredibly valuable for our partners and our listeners to be able to make business decisions on, and one of them is with our partner, flywire. They just published a new report on luxury travel trends. You can go to flywirecom slash travel trends and then just check out their resources look under travel for luxury travel report and I think you'll find this immensely fascinating, especially as it relates to guided travel, and next month we're getting into river cruising, and so there's some really valuable insights from their latest report on luxury travel. That's our friends at Flywire, so it's flywirecom slash travel trends to find the luxury travel report. So it's flywirecom slash travel trends to find the luxury travel report. And then my good friend, ian Cumming, who runs Travel Massive, is also partnered with Stay22, which is one of our continued title sponsors, and they actually just completed an incredible report on the crater economy. So huge credit to Ian and Katarina and the team at Travel Massive, working with Remy and Andrew and the team at Stay22. This report is gold. There's so much valuable insights in here. As I saw Ian highlighted, one of the main myths it dispels is there's not just one type of creator. There's many different types of creators within travel, so the best way to find that would just be go to travelmassivecom, slash stay22, and you'll be able to find that report, and then, of course, we'll include links in our newsletter and on our social channels as well.
Speaker 2:Now this episode is sponsored by our friends at Tour Optima and, as you've heard over the course of this series, I am an investor in Tour Optima. I work as an advisor closely with Ben because I'm a huge believer in this platform. So any of you that are in the day tour or multi-day tour space, if you wanna delight your guests, keep them coming back, you need to introduce a white label app like Tour Optima, and there's no comparison in my mind in the marketplace today. I was not able to build something like this in my time working with many multi-day tour companies, and Ben introduced me to this about two years ago, and instantly I realized what a significant opportunity this was, which is why I decided to get involved and Ben kindly agreed to sponsor this guided touring series as they continue to expand with large multi-day tour global brands. So to learn more information, check out touroptimacom or email ben at touroptimacom. We'll be right back.
Speaker 2:Our longtime listeners will be very familiar with travelaicom, one of our sponsors, from the very beginning. They've sponsored the last two seasons and also our AI Summit. You might actually remember they were recently featured in Season 4,. The two co-founders, john Liotier and Chris Jensen, live from Focusrite, where they shared how their innovative use of AI is reshaping the travel industry. Use of AI is reshaping the travel industry. If you missed it, we highly recommend going back to hear their inspiring story of building one of the fastest growing, profitable AI companies in travel. Entirely bootstrapped Travel AI is revolutionizing the industry by blending AI power efficiency with personalized, human centered travel experiences, from micro segmentation to tailored travel solutions. Their mission is to enhance every traveler's journey while setting the pace for travel's future. Here's how you can join the exciting mission. If you or someone you know in tech or AI is looking for a new career that combines innovation and impact, then head to TravelAIcom or follow them on LinkedIn to explore more opportunities. They are growing fast. Thanks again for your continued support.
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Speaker 2:And now back to the show. Now let's continue our guided travel series by focusing on explore. Now, explore has just opened an office in toronto for north america, led by katie rocket and the amazing team there, but they are a global company, as you'll hear, the third largest adventure travel globally and michael edwards was the ideal person to bring in this conversation to highlight adventure travel and how explore stacks up in the world of multi-day guided travel. So let's welcome Michael into the conversation. Michael Edwards, great to speak to you again. Thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 1:Thanks, Dan. It's great to be on. Hopefully we can add some value and I can certainly talk to you about the joys of small group travel as part of that multi-day touring mix.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, that's terrific, and clearly from that introduction people got a bit of sense of your background. Obviously, we've worked together before and you're based in London, of course, so that's where I'm finding you today. So why don't you actually start off and give everyone a brief overview, from your perspective, of Explore worldwide?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So Explore has been around 43, 44 years this year, so one classic pioneer in the space, one of the big UK, uk, you know owner operated back in the day, though that's no longer the case. So you go back 44 years, you know owner operator. Starts it pretty small, pretty niche, grows pretty quickly and now sort of mature in the uk, very mature market for um experiential small group travel, which explore led the. We're still pretty big in our space and now growing globally as well but we've really ridden that wave of pioneering the category to now seeing the maturation of that category and us being hopefully quite a big part of that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, it's an exciting time for this space and given the trends that we both are across in terms of the size of the market and the expansion over the next five or 10 years, which is obviously one of the reasons that we really wanted to not only have this conversation but do this deep dive into the multi-day tour, which many people saw as kind of a fading category. But if anything and not only is that undergoing a renaissance we're seeing great growth and you are kind of the third largest small group adventure tour operator globally and growing. Tell everyone a little bit about your background, though, so I know we work together, but how did you get into travel? How did you specifically get into adventure travel and then ultimately take on this role at Explore?
Speaker 1:Yeah, like a lot of people in travel, you know it wasn't a career pathway kind of floundering around the world, enjoying being a participant in, you know, being a traveler Found my way into in the gold first wave of digital. Back, you know, back in that first wave when the internet was kind of being invented, managed to get myself a digital job, and back then a digital job was probably a bit like an AI job or a cryptocurrency job now quite a rare species so I managed to get a job as the Flight Center Global Digital Consultant, whatever that meant, dan. So it was a good place to be. So that was my entry into travel. Flew around the world pontificating around what digital meant for a traditional retailer this is going back 20-odd years now and then through that I worked my way into the adventure space, the experiential space. That small group thing was the one which really interested me that most, that community minded, off the beaten track sort of responsible travel type thing. So through various roles I made my way to G Adventures, you know, based in very close to home for you. That's where we met Dan Three or four years at G running the UK European business, and then six years at Intrepid and there I ran the UK and Europe again, but my last role there was a global chief officer, so responsible for sales and marketing and digital globally.
Speaker 1:A really great time, responsible for sales and marketing and digital globally A really great time really seeing how a company grows from being sort of a specialist to a mainstream brand and now you know what's fast becoming probably a household brand and I thoroughly expect it to be in the next couple of years and also through that period where becoming a B Corp became more prevalent and more important, that notion of being a purpose-led business.
Speaker 1:And through that I found my way to explore so it's fair to say, explore fantastic business, great legacy. But it perhaps hadn't grown as significantly, as substantially as maybe the G Adventures or the Intrepids of this world, but it had all the capability to do so. So I came in kind of a remit to give it that identity, give it a global footprint and really take it through. What I see is, over the next maybe three to five, even longer, I'd call a bit of a golden age for small group travel. You know, um some you could, we could have talked about. Will it be a narrowing category? Well, I see it as a bit of a golden age for the category for a number of reasons, so I feel like I'm well placed to take explore on the next.
Speaker 2:Whatever 43 years looks like yeah, I definitely agree, having known you, worked with you and also, I mean, clearly, explore is very lucky to have you leading that brand globally for a couple of reasons. You know you just highlighted your background with two of the major players, but also being based in the uk market. You know, obviously I I'm based in Toronto and there's the major English language markets Australia, new Zealand, the US, canada, even South Africa. There is, you know, huge growth to be had in those markets.
Speaker 2:But the UK specifically, because I know that and it's some of the things I want to get into in terms of the different markets and where you're seeing growth, having you based in London, because one of the things as I understand, one of the things as I understand, katie Rocket, who's heads up North America for you, who is a friend of mine as well, and she's based here in Toronto, and obviously you guys are expanding globally. But you've got a great strength in the UK and in Europe with your brand. But there is still massive opportunity for you to grow that brand globally. But before we get into that, I want to highlight, from your perspective, this golden age and why you see it occurring. So, if we think about adventure, travel or the rise of small group tours. What are you specifically seeing as the reason for the surge in activity and this golden age? What are the things that have stood out to you that you've positioned this business to expand and grow?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think there's probably three or four core points. I've never actually written these down, but I think if I look at it, I'll analyze it, having been in this space for a long time. I think there's kind of a convergence of three or four things happening at the moment. One is and it's not the main feature, but it's definitely an important one is this notion of responsible travel. You know, climate change doing travel in a way that's less carbon intensive and, similarly, is beneficial for the communities in which it travels.
Speaker 1:So that notion of purpose led travel. I don't think it's the primary reason, but I do think it's the reason that it makes this type of travel attractive for an increasingly broad group of people. I think the pandemic, as awful as it was, really sharpened the mind around valuing our freedoms and valuing experiences, and I think a lot of people came out of the pandemic who maybe hadn't done this style of travel before and saw it as a great way to I hate the phrase, but really get into those, you know, those not waiting, sitting around to do some of those bucket list experiences you know, the machu picchus and the taj mahal's or the antarcticas, and small groups offers a very good entry point for that.
Speaker 1:You travel with other people, um, you're led, you don't have to do all of the research yourself. It's very safe. Uh, in terms of that perception of maybe traveling on your own, particularly for a first time or a less experienced traveler, the notion of having a tour leader who knows the region really well and can get you off the beaten track and into those sort of those experiences that may be harder to find on your own and really enhance the trip. I think the third one is a bit more intangible, but it's this idea of community that may be harder to find on your own and really enhance the trip. I think the third one is a bit more intangible, but it's this idea of community, I think, people in an increasingly fragmented world where the lens of social media is pretty prevalent but can also be a bit overwhelming for people. It seems like everyone's out there having a great time, but you wouldn't know, right, because we're all watching it behind our screens individually. So this idea of community, bringing community to life, and I think that's what small groups do. For a week, 10 days, 14 days, you're with 12 to 14 other travelers, like-minded people. It's what I would call call.
Speaker 1:I've kind of coined this phrase that we're using internally. What we offer is, you know micro communities for a couple of weeks, you know, you join 12 people. They may come from a slightly different background than you, slightly different age, but they share a similar thing they want to connect with the planet. They want to see, have amazing experiences. They probably have some degree of wanting to travel in a more responsible car, less carbon intensive way. They probably want to do some good or ensure that their tourist dollars do some good in the communities in which they travel. But, most importantly, they like being part of a community that is experiencing something together, rather than through the isolation of sharing it only by yourself, through the medium of your tablet or your phone or whatever, so that one's a bit intangible. But I think it's a really strong factor.
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Speaker 2:Now back to the show. Well, let's talk about that small group element, because clearly we share a passion for that travel style and the brands we've highlighted and we've both worked with in the past. There is a commonality in terms of the idea that, rather than being on a large coach with 50 plus people, where some of these brands are maximizing yield and therefore trying to make sure these coaches are operating full, there are, of course, operators that still operate coaches but fill them to half capacity or often more premium options. You know, it was interesting when I spoke to James Thornton obviously you know James well from Intrepid and I asked him is there any interest of Intrepid getting into coach tours?
Speaker 2:And he said absolutely not yeah, exactly, One of our partners on our podcast is Collette, a great company. They actually they've seen a significant growth in small group. It's literally like up 70% year over year, and so some of those companies have been able to successfully reinvent themselves or expand into categories to introduce small group, to successfully reinvent themselves or expand into categories to introduce small group, given you know it so well and you were just highlighting that these small groups are essentially a tribe that travels together. Tell everyone, because a number of our listeners, I'm sure in this series are maybe familiar with the multi-day tour market, as you and I can both agree, there's probably not a great terminology for this category.
Speaker 2:Of course TourRadar calls it organized adventures. Everyone has a slightly different and it's not just purely adventure travel. But tell us a little bit more about small group itself just to give us an overview of that experience from your point of view and why you think. Obviously you've mentioned sustainability. There is still significant growth to be had, especially for 50 plus travelers, because I know you've introduced some new premium options as well. So, yeah, take everyone through.
Speaker 1:Yeah look, and it's. I'm not surprised. James gave that answer and I can categorically give you the same answer, because we believe that the small group experience is the optimal one for a number of reasons and I'll try and break this down. Firstly, you're with a group, a relatively small group of people 12, 14, 16, maybe max 16 on most trips and you're there for maybe a week or two. That gives you time to get to know people pretty deeply, right? Whereas if you're with 50 people, you might get to know a few people, but it's a bit limiting. Similarly, can be a bit overwhelming. You might get some service level relationships built in those couple of weeks, but with 16 people guided by a tour leader, you are. It's pretty intimate, the experience is pretty intimate. You spend a lot of time together. As I say, you probably have similar interests or curiosities about the world. So by its very nature it lends itself well to that dynamic, that small tribe that you talk to, you know and people like you know, by and large people like being part of a tribe, right? It's a sense of place, sense of community, sense of belonging, and I think we provide that.
Speaker 1:I think the other thing small groups do is make the world very accessible. You know if the logistics of once you you got to those 50s or bigger numbers, you know, can you go to that small local restaurant? Can it facilitate serving 50 people at a sitting? Is it good for that community to have that kind of tourism go through it so you can get to smaller places, you can get to more intimate places. It just gives you more agility to if there's something new and we give our tour leaders latitude if there are new experiences. You know, asking 50 people to do a slight detour because this amazing new restaurant or this ceramics workshop is open, very hard to get 50 people to. You know the consensus of 50 people is pretty hard to reach. 12, 14 travelers with pretty similar views and interests. Pretty easy to have that adaptability and I think people like that. It really does. You know that off the beaten track are you ever really off the beaten track these days? Probably only in fairly extreme circumstances. But you can still have very unique experiences in very familiar places if you've got the ability and the knowledge to get to those places. And I think it lends itself really well to that and I think in the past this notion of small group has been a little bit.
Speaker 1:It's all about the destination and not about the accommodation or the way you travel, and I think that's changed. You know, people want better accommodation and they want better modes of travel and more comfortable vehicles, but they still want to have that same visceral sort of immersion into people and place. But we've recognized, as the category goes, we do have to cater to people's travel needs. You know we that's you mentioned earlier we've introduced an upgraded range so you can do any most of our tours or any growing number of tours in, you know, slightly more upgraded, more comfortable accommodations. So our category is moving towards I think the traveler's moving towards us and we're moving towards that traveler in some way so that we can cater to make the category more accessible for people. But I think it's that real community aspect and that agility and ability to get into a place, to into people in place in a way that you just can't do in a big group.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and obviously one of the reasons I'm a big advocate is that part of what you described, that sense of community.
Speaker 2:And if you were to close your eyes and open them again and be on an explore trip and look around at your group, describe to us the type of individuals that are attracted to the small group in your instance, I mean I and just as a caveat to you, I was asking James kind of a similar question about the demographics is, most people think adventure it's 20 or 30 somethings and you know his number one category is like a 45-year-old solo female and then a 60-plus couple and the third audience for them so it's something that are 20 or 30 somethings. And also something that I'm sure you'll agree with is much more of a psychographic than a demographic is that even though there may be an age difference between some of your guests, the reality is that they are all seeking a similar experience, cultural immersion, and I always find it amazing that a 25-year-old gets along with a 60-year-old on these trips and you develop really fascinating friendships and have really thoughtful discussions. That's one of the things that always stood out to me, that range of people.
Speaker 1:Dan, you've summarizedized it really well, and sometimes a phrase feels like a you know, a marketing term or a piece of terminology, but in this case it's not.
Speaker 1:It definitely is a psychographic, not a demographic you know, we probably index around the age of about 57, but we we think of our sweet spot as between 40 and 60. We've got some, you know, people up the younger 40, and certainly people the older side of 60. But what brings them together is that shared desire to see the world with fellow curious, like-minded people, and age is not a barrier to that, in my opinion, and I see it time and time again. I've traveled widely on our trips, on competitor trips and in previous roles. I've traveled widely on our trips on competitor trips and in previous roles and you see, that makeup. I don't think I've been on a trip where you haven't had in a group of people somebody at that younger age spectrum and somebody at that older spectrum. And you don't get many opportunities in the real world to have those shared relationships. In a work world, stereotypically, you know, know an older person is more likely to be your boss or your. You know it is common ground where you're there for a common reason, and you know you put people together out in a, in an environment in which they're all sharing a similar thing. Then it breaks down those barriers and that dynamic is incredible to see. So you said, if I close my eyes and what would I see to see. So you said, if I closed my eyes and what would I see? I would see, you know, I would see.
Speaker 1:We again lots of female solo travelers, and I think let's just break down solo because it's an interesting one. Um, there's safety reasons and the you know, traveling in a group is, uh, is safer or perceived to be safe from those things. But what we're seeing with solo travels, in particular female solo travelers it's not that perhaps stereotype, hackneyed notion of people are on their own so they need to find other people to travel with. It's that they maybe have lifestyle differences or time in their life that's different than their friends or family. You know, we get lots of solo travelers who are married or in relationships or they have partners. They just have different interests. Or you know those 20s or 30s you remember your 20s, 30s. We travel with our friends, right? But increasingly, as you get older, your friends aren't always available at the same time as you, right? So a small group offers an entry point into being able to do something that you don't want to wait for others to be available for, knowing that you will probably travel with somebody that you're going to get on with and with that small tribe of people. So I think that's why we're seeing a huge rise in solo travel.
Speaker 1:People certainly post-pandemic people just don't want to wait for these experiences, right, we? If you have your freedoms curtailed for a couple of years, you really value your freedoms when you get them back, and people want to maximize their time. I don't know how long that's going to last, but I'm not seeing any end to that. I feel it in myself. You know, I want to make most of every minute I've got because, um, we've never my generation has certainly never had their freedoms curtailed before, and and it was a real eye-opener- yeah, for sure, and I think it's a 10-year horizon, given demographic factors, but given the global nature of your business, where are you seeing the growth?
Speaker 2:And clearly, I mean obviously we're talking mainly about English language markets, since it's primarily English language tours but where are you seeing the growth in 2025? What are the markets that are standing out to you or that you're prioritizing, that you think have the greatest potential for growth in adventure, travel and for explore?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it'd be fascinating to have this conversation in 10 years because I suspect the world will have changed hugely, particularly in this space. But right now, look, and I make no bones about it, we're a UK business, that's our base and that's where we've been and we hadn't done such a good job, particularly given how passionate we are about our style of travel, of expanding into other markets. You know we'd had some GSA arrangements, so we are very focused on North America and Australasia at the moment, and the reason for that is in Australia. It's a very mature market for our type of travel. They get it. Australians and New Zealanders are comfortable traveling LA and you don't have the language barriers. You know that commonality.
Speaker 1:I think there will be an opportunity for bringing other languages in or running tours in other languages, and we can maybe touch on that in a minute. And the second one is North America, because I think it's not just the size of the market. You always talk about market opportunity size. You've still got to have the right product and the right marketing strategy and the right price point. So it's not the size of the market. I think it's the readiness of the market to embrace this style of travel. I think Canadians and sorry if I offend anyone who might be listening I think Canadians have maybe been on this journey a bit longer than North Americans. I'm generalising a bit, but I think Canadians have travelled a bit more in this style, more than North Americans. Apologies to those North Americans that get it, and do it.
Speaker 1:We love you and we enjoy having you on our tours. But I think in North America we're seeing a real understanding of this being a viable travel option, that small group, you know it's a great way to get out and see the world and I think there is a shift towards this style of travel and understanding of it and it's been trailblazed by some of our competitors, and that's you know. But the category, I think, has got lots of headroom for a few more operators, particularly those who've been doing it for some time, who are passionate about it and can offer really good product and authenticity around their purpose-led piece. So, but then, beyond that, I do see Europe and then increasingly parts of Asia and South America. You know it's just that you have to choose your markets and your growth strategies. You know you have to be fairly disciplined around those, but I can certainly see a time where we will move into other markets.
Speaker 2:Well, tell us. Then, there's two aspects to this, of course. There's your source market and then there's the destinations you're sending them to, and you know we've talked before that you know G Adventures focused on, you know, peru and South America, and Intrepid. When the world was kind of almost divided in half, they were focused on Southeast Asia. Clearly, both are global. Remind us where Explorer got their start. In terms of the destinations you're primarily focused on, obviously, you talked about being a UK-centric company, given your history, but yeah, what were the destinations you were primarily sending travelers to? And I guess, what are your core markets? That you are is where the majority of your bookings happen. And then, where else are you seeing growth? Where else are you expanding to? Because I know you've got a number of new trips for 2025.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean back 43 years ago we were that classic English travel. You know there was lots of India and Pakistan and you know those kind of places that have always been kind of pioneer travel places for the British. And then, as we sort of perfected the model or improved on the model and more customers understood it, we branched out. So, like most companies, we pretty much travel everywhere. Now. You know any given year probably about, you know between four and six hundred different tours or tour type variations of tours, and there's, there's we. We cover most of the globe.
Speaker 1:We've always kept a bit of a pioneering spirit. We we always look to get back into a destination if that destination's not been, um, you haven't been able to travel there for a while. Or we want to pioneer new destinations, knowing that you probably won't get that volume of travelers, but you'll get that pioneering spirit of traveler that remains true to the dna of the business and true to the dna of the spirit of the type of traveler that we've always attracted, you know. So saudi arabia is a great example. You can debate the politics of saudi arabia till um the cows come home and, like most of our us in this space, we believe travel opens up. So we don't look at the politics, we think it's a bridge. You know, it's a bit of an antidote to some of those things.
Speaker 1:So we launched Saudi Arabia a couple of years ago, probably the first operator of our sort of size to get back into Saudi Arabia, and it's been a big seller for us, one of our best sellers and, interestingly, a big seller out of North America. It jumped into our top five at the end of last year for North American travelers and I think that's because, you know, lots is written about it or has been written about it, but very little is known by the actual traveler, right? So anywhere you have a destination like that, where there's still a sense of what's it really like, sense of wonder, I want to see it for myself. That that perception gap and being having the ability to go in there and see it for yourself, those places always remain fascinating for people.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's really interesting. Obviously, we talked a bit about the markets that you are focused on, a little bit about some of the destinations and some detail, obviously, small group adventures themselves. The part I would love to understand that I don't familiar with with Explore even though we've known each other well I'm familiar with the brand is how you sell the difference of Explore versus other adventure travel companies or other multi-day tour companies. Clearly, there's a huge difference between small group and coach and there is a market for coach. I mean, obviously there still is a large market for coach tours, right, yeah, there is. When you are positioning Explore against all of those competitors and trying to convince people to take an Explore trip, what are, I guess, your USPs, your unique selling proposition? I mean, I've gone through the website so I have an instinct, but I really would love to hear it from you what is the difference? How do you sell the difference on Explore?
Speaker 1:Look, I'd love to sit here and tell you there were 10 distinct differences, dan. But what I will say is, if you look at the three or four bigger players Arsene, intrepid and G and Exodus we do do pretty similar stuff, right, but we've been small companies right In the grand. If you look at us as a category within travel, we still are relatively small, certainly getting bigger and the likes of Intrepid doing a great job of turning, you know, becoming a mainstream business. So it's been small. So it's not surprising that we do similar things right, because we've grown the market together and because we're all so passionate about what we do.
Speaker 1:And you know you can, every, every business owner or business leader will come on here and tell you they're passionate about their business. But there are there are no businesses I've worked in where the people that design, build, operate, run, market the product are as passionate about the thing that they sell. So there's a shared passion in the industry. So your differences really come down to you know, perhaps those things were in their company DNA. So for us it was always that pioneer spirit. So we'll always perhaps put on those pioneer destinations. They won't be the core of our business and they won't bring home the majority of our revenue, but we'll always seek to do the Saudi Arabias and the Pakistans and the Togo's and the I'd love to get trips to, you know, papua New Guinea. It's not going to happen anytime soon, but we've always got the team looking to get back into or discover those places that feel like you're really, really discovering something for the first time.
Speaker 1:I think the second one is we we don't perhaps with that psychographic thing, we do really stay sort of closer to our 40 to 60 range. We welcome travelers either side of that, but we're not trying to play every age group on the spectrum, so there's maybe a clearer sense to a traveler that explore might be a bit suitable for me. So if I'm 50, I'm going to be with some 40 year olds, I'm going to be with some 60 year olds and a few people either side of that, but it is going to be with some 60-year-olds and a few people either side of that. But it is going to be a slightly narrower demographic but still pretty broad, whereas most of our competitors have something in the younger range and something in that older range and where we're saying and then the differentiation I think comes down to we pride ourselves on service.
Speaker 1:You know, you've always got a human when you speak to us. That's true of most of the companies in our space. But having done it for 43 years, I think that's one of the things that sets us apart. But I would be wrong and I've worked for those businesses and they're all great businesses. I like that there aren't huge differences, because this is the style of travel we believe in and this is the style of travel we would like people to take in the future, right? We think it's good for the planet, we think it's good for the communities in which we travel, so I don't mind that there's a bit of overlap in what we do at this particular point in time.
Speaker 2:Yeah, what I found interesting when you mentioned, like, the four reasons, initially about Explore. You mentioned about responsible travel, yeah, and I wanted to dive into that a bit further, just in terms of clarifying for our listeners or potential customers or travel advisors that might be selling Explore, how important that is and then how you deliver on that, because it's always the question of, like, how sustainable is this style of travel? You know people have to fly to destinations, so I'm keen to know Explore's approach to sustainability and responsible travel.
Speaker 1:Yeah and look. Sustainability, responsible travel it's a much used, possibly misunderstood or miscommunicated word in some ways, and we see it in two ways. So sustainable and responsible I'll come to the carbon bit and climate stuff. Second, because that's the harder bit, obviously. So, from a responsible, sustainable environment, we genuinely believe that by taking small numbers of people to communities, keeping that money in the markets in which we travel, keeping it close to those communities, not spending, trying not to spend it on multinationals supporting people and projects where we go, that's sustainability. You know, tourism is, as we all know, a massive part ofp, for particularly in lots of these developing countries, so you can do some real good in terms of bringing people in a in a responsible way through those destinations. The flip side, and the side that gets the most attention, is, you know, we sell tours in every country in the world and most of them need a long haul flight to get there right, and you cannot shy away from that in any way, shape or form, and that problem has not been solved. But we take it on board. We don't want people to not travel.
Speaker 1:Dan, I grew up in that generation where it was relatively easy to travel, so I traveled a lot and it helped me form who I am as a person and how I think about the world and how I raised my daughter, and it's been nothing but beneficial. But I do recognize every time I get on a plane, I'm emitting carbon into the air and I think carefully about how many times I do that and how far I go and how frequently I do it. So what do we do? We do everything we can, without necessarily being able to solve the elephant in the room, which is, ultimately, we don't yet have planes that are sustainable, or policies or whatever they are governance around ensuring that the airlines are forced to do more than they're doing now. So what we do is, in a simple sense, every tour we run, we try and decrease the carbon intensity per passenger every year, and that will be through uh, with the supply chain, making sure the hotels have certain practices around waste and water, plastics, etc.
Speaker 1:The transport we use, moving to more hybrid coaches and electric coaches in the future, and then obviously the big one is internal flights A lot of our historically a lot of internal flights on our trips. So we've removed hundreds of those in the last few years. So we have a carbon intensity score. It's. You know we work with an external partner. I think we were one of the first, if not the first, to carbon label every single trip and be transparent about that and work with you know, with scientific targets and have that audited. And so that's part of our KPIs internally. Part of my bonus, for example, is based on that. It's not just about profit for us. If I don't bring down the carbon intensity per passenger on our trips in some way, I'm not meeting my KPIs and I don't get remunerated as well as I would have done if I don't achieve those goals. So it's riven through the whole business. So all of my management team are also aligned to those targets.
Speaker 1:And then the other thing is we'll try new things. We've moved from offsetting to sort of investing in carbon capture projects. We don't think offsetting is the way to go anymore. So our business has spent about two hundred and fifty thousand last year that's UK pounds on working with climate dot com on carbon capture projects. We now give our customers the ability to buy sustainable aviation fuels, safs.
Speaker 1:We don't think any of these things are magic bullets, dan, and we'll get some of them wrong and we might have, but we will try explore every avenue to do two things. One is keep travel alive for people, because we genuinely have a fundamental belief that it enriches you in a person and makes you think about the world in a different way. That can only be beneficial to this sustainability debate down the track. And secondly, we genuinely believe us and other companies are really contributing to those communities in which we travel. And if we pull back on all of that, nobody wins. You know we may all lose. Who knows right? Yeah, absolutely. But we give it every shot to maintain that wonder of travel and the good that it does for the places in which we travel to.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's interesting, I didn't realize that your incentive scheme was also based on sustainability. That's actually fascinating to know because I mean, that's where getting to the root of it, like how committed are these companies to delivering against this? So I'm glad you actually you called that out, because I think that's what travelers really understand about the tour operators that they're choosing. So I appreciate your perspective on sustainability. I guess the part I'm also keen to understand is the. You know we talked a little bit about the destinations you go to, and I know you have you mentioned Saudi Arabia, one of the ones I didn't realize you had such a great strength in Africa. I know you have Ghana trips now and even Togo, which is really fascinating, like Western Africa but parts of the world that I think maybe it's the case that you have British travelers that are more interested in going to those destinations and hopefully more Americans or North Americans or Australians as well. But yeah, tell us about, I guess, some of those unique itineraries that you offer, like what's new for 2025. And the other thing.
Speaker 2:I'm also keen to get your take on is one thing I've I've seen working closely with ATTA uh, and being at their event last year is like this huge rise in cycling travel, like this people pursuing hiking and cycling it just seems to be like there's an insatiable demand. So it's, you know, you're often finding these new destinations because there's great cycle paths or great, uh, hiking. So yeah, Tell us about some of the new trips, I guess I'd like to think some of the cycling growth is mirrored in pelotons.
Speaker 1:I'd like to think it was real cycling than sort of cycling in your living room during a pandemic yeah, well, actually just I.
Speaker 2:I have to quickly say on that point, michael, the part that actually really made me laugh when I was learning about all these cycling trips taking off. The reason for it is because it's electric bikes, right. So, it's more of a pleasure cruise now than it is. You know, the Tour de France.
Speaker 1:You still pedal, man, you still pedal.
Speaker 2:You look like you're cycling. A few of these operators that highlighted to me is that it opens up a lot of people that wouldn't otherwise consider a cycling tour. So that's obvious, yes, but it also it means you can travel greater distances over the course of a day. It does.
Speaker 1:The point you make there about cycling and accessibility is actually similarly true for something like Africa as a destination. Right, it is about accessibility. So let's come back to the Africa thing. I'm fascinated by Western Africa. It's never had a huge volume of travelers and there's been logistical issues in the past Lots of visa requirements, infrastructure, flight, direct flights, indirect flights.
Speaker 1:It's been a hard place to travel to and it has been some instability in some of those countries not all of them, but lots of visa changes, lots of logistical changes, lots of regime changes, airlines not necessarily committing to having routes in their frequency and volume, so and that's an accessibility thing. So when you find it, when you want to be a bit more of a pioneer, you've got to have, you've got to kind of overcome some of those logistical things and do the work to make it accessible for people. Do the work to make it accessible for people and hopefully you pioneer those destinations to a degree that you help support the infrastructure, the understanding of tourism and the importance that it can bring and some of those barriers start to move away. And we've seen that in other parts of.
Speaker 1:Africa and you know, even a really well-touristed country in Morocco 20 years ago doesn't see anything like this. So tourism has partly driven those infrastructure changes and those accessibility things and we'd like to think the same could happen in some of those less frequently visited parts of the world. So hopefully we can lead the way in making a bit more accessible. Ethiopia is a great example, you know. It's a really popular destination for us and it's a lot more accessible. Rwanda is another one that's becoming really popular and fastener. I personally haven't been. Everything I hear from our product team and the guys that have been just an amazing place. All these places are right so, but it's that accessibility thing. So, similarly with cycling, electric bikes have made it more that style of travel more accessible for more people.
Speaker 1:There is, in my opinion, there aren't many better ways. You know there's two ways. I think I'm a cyclist from way back, cycled halfway around the world. There's two ways I like seeing the world. It's from a train, because you're traveling through a community, you're traveling with people from that country. It gets you into the heart of a town or a village and you feel a sense of travel. When you're traveling with people from that country, it gets you into the heart of a town or a village and you feel a sense of travel. When you're doing it, similarly with cycling, you know you've got no barrier, you're, you're propelling yourself, you're out in the open air and you're getting from a to b under your own steam, albeit supported by a little bit of electricity these days. So I think that's, that's taken away the barrier for people. And then people do it for the first time. They experience the electric.
Speaker 1:Not everyone travels on an electric bike. You sometimes get the choice, but if I'm, you know, if I'm less mobile or less fit or I'm not a keen cyclist to suddenly be able to do that style of travel in a way that is just such an immersive, wonderful way to do it. It's that accessibility issue and I think that's why we're seeing cycling and active. And again, you have to think linked back to the pandemic. Right, we were stuck indoors. Everyone baked sourdough and got super fit for two weeks and drank until three in the morning.
Speaker 1:But hey, you can do all of those things on holiday, right? So I think active is also linked to that. Hey, we were stuck indoors and we saw a big rise in people buying bikes and jogging and all of those things. So I think there's some linkage there. But I think people want to experience the destination, but they want to feel like they're doing it in a way that's more relevant to them and more immersive, and cycling certainly offers that, and I think that category is just going to keep growing in my opinion.
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Speaker 2:Explore the stories behind the biggest innovations in travel. Visit TravelTechcom slash Travel Trends or tune in to Tech Talk on Spotify and Apple. That's TravelTechcom slash Travel Trends and Tech Talk on Spotify and Apple Podcasts. And now back to the show what's your vision over the next five years for both Explore and the adventure category in general. How much of what we see today will remain true and where do we think we'll see the innovation? Clearly in destinations that's a big one. And style of travel we've talked about those so clearly that's going to continue to evolve.
Speaker 1:I don't think the product will change massively because it's still got a long way to go. I think what you'll see is a deepening of the product. So if you go back 10 years you would do we would maybe offer sort of you'd go to india in the same way as you go to south. You know country in south africa or country in south america, sorry, something like that, but now you know you can go to vietnam and you can do cycling, you can do food, you can do upgraded you can do so it's that sort of doing a going to a country but doing it in a way that um suits some, a particular interest you might have, so that deepening of destination and the way you travel, that will definitely continue to go.
Speaker 1:I think we'll see in our space a move to more upgraded and premium and maybe even touching luxury at some point, because accommodation never used to be a fact that people just wanted to see the destination. So I think now that people are used to perhaps through the rise of Airbnb and particularly in our age demographic you know that 40 to 60 they've got a bit more disposable income there's no crime in wanting to do it with a bit of comfort, right? So I think we'll see that continue to expand. I think that this notion of community will only grow and grow, and grow.
Speaker 1:I think social media isn't going anywhere and it's such an enabler and an inspiring thing but it also can be quite an isolating thing. So if you can find the middle, if you can be the middle ground or the sort of the bridge between that sort of somewhat isolation and somewhat inspiration, that to me can be a quite powerful thing. And I think we'll talk increasingly about community and micro communities and tribes. As you know we are a travel company, but I'm increasingly seeing us as a company that creates community. I think you'll see that the technology piece is going to be fascinating, and I think we're. I mean we're. Travel has never. Correct me if I'm wrong, dan, you may never been at the forefront of technology.
Speaker 1:But I think there's, finally, technologies that are coming and emerging, and particularly with AI, that travel companies can properly harness for the first time and perhaps a way that they haven't taken the advantage of in other technology advances. Ai is so powerful for what we do because I don't think anything will replace that wanting to be on a community right, so that ai, I don't think, and you know I could be sitting here in 10 years and you may not be talking to the michael edwards explore bop md and it'll do a far better job for me, and that's fine, that's the way the world evolves, right.
Speaker 1:But I think people are going to want human connections and I think small group is particularly well placed to it. Does it now and I think it'll increasingly play that part going forward if we continue to offer great product. But what AI can do is give the customer a better experience. Going into that pre-trip, you know knowledge. You know we've got AI now built into our customer service telephone systems. We're learning from the customer. We're being able to serve them up with knowledge and information and data and answers and better ways of giving them the information they need. It makes it quicker for our team so they can focus on that human aspect.
Speaker 1:What inspires you? How can I help you? What's the trip going to be like? Who are you going to meet? How are you going to feel? How can we make it better for you? So those things and from a marketing point of view, the thing that, the thing that I'd like to see change in the next 10 years and I hope we see this change and we, we, um, we make no bones about this, we haven't done a great job in this space is we're talking about this rise of small group travel, right, and. But we're talking about broadly, you know, middle class English speaking generally, you know, not particularly diverse group of people going on these trips and I would like to see that change. You know, I would like to think in 10 years time our style of travel is not just open but is a real option for people from more diverse cultures and languages. And one of the limitations to that is your marketing right. You market.
Speaker 1:If people pick up a brochure and they see 16 similar looking people, you're not going to think that trips for you and in the past that's been you know you have to do photo shoots and in-country video and it's onerous and it's resource heavy. So you might want to move the diversity dial a little bit. But how do you move that into your marketing in a way that also is balanced, along with sort of meeting your financial goals? With tools like ai, I can see a time where we can replace a lot of that onerous, heavy lifting stuff around marketing, that we can really present this style of travel to a more diverse group of people. That, to me, would be truly exciting.
Speaker 2:To exactly that point. That was actually. You and I both, you know, not only have a great affinity for this style of travel, and you mentioned, you know, a couple of times in our conversation that you know this is a small industry and when you look at the size of the cruise industry, and so one of the things I wanted to ask you, given your you know, your background, your expertise and your position in the industry, is how can we make sure that more people come into the consideration set, whether it is a traveler right now that's listening to this sitting on the fence about group or adventure travel, or travel advisors that just don't know enough about adventure and group travel? Clearly, one of the ways that we do that is familiarization trips, fam trips, as we call them to get someone to have had that same aha moment that we've had and you're like, oh my God, I want everyone to experience this style of travel. That's clearly how you and I both feel about it.
Speaker 2:But what are some of the other things that we can do together or as an industry, so that we're not focused on the just shifting market share or that kind of zero game there's only, and focusing on the competition? We've talked about some of the other adventure travel companies and really, if you look at the growth of them, everyone's seeing growth, so that's that's a fantastic position for us all to be in. The question is like how high can we go? How big is this opportunity?
Speaker 1:I think we need to take ownership of it. Dan we, you know we come on your podcast and other media outlets and we talk about how passionate we are about this style of travel and I genuinely believe it shaped who I am and what I believe as a human and how I raise my family and how the group of friends I have and how I perceive the world politically and all of those things, and for me, I've benefited hugely from that. I'm a lower of great wealth. That is a huge privilege and it's helped shape me as a person. So, if we talk about being truly purpose led businesses, part of our mission, if we believe it, is to commit to those other generations and other groups of people that perhaps don't have that same opportunity now. And is that I don't know if that's programs? Is it our marketing? Is it how we position as itself? Is it outreach programs? Do we have to adapt our product to adapt our product?
Speaker 1:I would like to see more discussion on that as an industry because as much as I love our industry, we do tend to talk about the same things in the same ways, and we're in a position where we are relatively small and we say we're purpose led and I genuinely believe we are. We are in a position collectively to move the dial on some of this stuff right If we own it and we agree on it. And I don't know exactly what that looks like, but that's a debate and a discussion I would welcome. I I don't want to be. I want this product, I want this style of travel, um, to be open to everyone in the same way that travel was open to me from, you know, from about the age of 18 onwards, because I know the profound impact it has. So, internally, we do have we're a bit behind in my opinion, but we are starting to put some real tangible goals around what that might look like in the next two years, and one of the things will be about marketing. You know, about how we present our style of travel and who it's for, and you know we'll step into that in a way that's hopefully not condescending or we'll try and get the balance right, because there is a risk that you make it less accessible. So it's a bit of a minefield and we've got to get that right.
Speaker 1:But similarly, we've got to bring more diverse people into work with us. Right? Because if you have to say and one of the great things about the pandemic is we're not, our business doesn't function from a single location anymore, we've got hubs around the world. We've got people from much more broad nationalities and backgrounds working for us now. So that's the big opportunity for me. My access to talent and diverse ways of thinking are so much broader than they were pre-pandemic. So if I look about my company, I think we'll double easily in the next five, 10 years. Certainly in the next five years I think we'll double, and then sky's the limit, I think. But that is reliant on bringing in a different way of thinking into your business. Right To keep going through those step changes or barriers to changing the way you do business and who you do it? For A bit of a long-winded answer because I don't have all the answers, dan Just a passion to get there, I think, is coming across.
Speaker 2:For sure. And the one thing I'd love to ask you on this exact topic, because one of the most powerful ways we can inspire people to travel is through our travel stories. Yeah, and Tony and Maureen Wheeler, who I had the pleasure to work with at Lonely Planet for many years, they would always ask them this question. That used to frustrate me when I hear journalists or media ask like tell us something terrible that happened on your trip or something that happened Did you get robbed, did you get mugged? And Maureen was like we've never had a bad experience. She was just like because people try to instantly go to the negative or the reasons not to leave your home. And so I find that travel stories and clearly it's in our DNA, we're storytellers and when we share stories, it inspires other people to travel.
Speaker 2:So I would love to hear if you wouldn't mind sharing with us one of your favorite travel stories or memories.
Speaker 1:Ah, you've got me down because I was going to tell you a story where bad stuff happened but ultimately it was amazing stuff because it was about the human spirit, right? So I was very luckily fortunate enough to do the Sydney to Hobart many years ago, the famous yacht race from Sydney to Hobart that takes off from Boxing Day from Sydney Harbour all the way down to Tasmania. It's a race. I don't know how I managed to wangle my way onto it, I'm not much of a sailor, but it was catastrophic that year Huge storms. I was in the middle of those storms and sadly, I think from memory, about six people died and I think the worst race in terms of the history of that race and to be in those storms is surreal and terrifying at the same time.
Speaker 1:But coming into Tasmania a couple of days later and we went to a couple of funerals and some services, that human spirit you hear when you're out at sea is.
Speaker 1:You know, you can hear all these boats and I was lying in my bunk with what's called the race, scared, and you could hear all the boats talking to each other and that connectivity felt.
Speaker 1:We didn't feel safe, necessarily, but you were connected by why are we out here on the ocean doing this in the middle of the storm, right, and that sense of I just want to push myself, I want to do something outside of my comfort zone, I want to have a shared experience with somebody else. That and what I remember, what I take away from that is not that I was in a big storm, it's that I had this amazing shared experience that now binds me to some, some tangible, intangible strong with a few people, barely tenuous with others. But we shared that same experience and it will have equally formed something about us in some way right. That binds us together and for me that's what we do is about stepping into the world right in a way that, um, you couldn't do many years ago and we do, hopefully. We step into that world in a certain way that makes it very accessible for you and beneficial for the places that you go, and for me that's pretty powerful storytelling, right for sure yeah, that's great.
Speaker 2:No thanks for sharing that with us.
Speaker 2:Of course, yeah, the dramatic um it's pretty dramatic, yeah, no I no, I appreciate you sharing that and obviously I've so enjoyed this discussion. Obviously, I value our friendship and I'm so pleased and impressed to see your continued success. So I look forward to seeing you again when you're across and, uh, and and seeing the team, as I do regularly here in the, the Toronto office. Um, but certainly uh, I want to make sure that everyone knows how to connect with you, how to find out more about Explore Worldwide. So point everyone in those directions, if you wouldn't mind, Michael.
Speaker 1:So Explore Worldwide, explorecocom, so in ca sorry, it's a global audience and you can find me on LinkedIn. I'm very happy to talk to anyone who's got an interest in this space. Dan, I really appreciate you highlighting our sector. I know how passionate that's how we met, so we share a love of it and it's great to be able to come on and talk about it and highlight it. I think if there's one thing that you and I share, it's a real passion for this sector and what we offer, so it's been great to be able to come on and talk about it.
Speaker 2:Fantastic. Thank you so much again, wishing you and the team every success in 2025 and beyond. Thanks again, michael.
Speaker 1:Thanks Dan Really appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much for joining us on this latest episode of Travel Trends. I hope you've been enjoying our deep dive into the world of guided travel. I certainly enjoyed reconnecting with Michael Edwards today and talking about Explore Worldwide and bringing adventure travel into this series on guided touring. Next week we're going to be speaking to the head of AAT Kings, ben Hall, who is also an old friend of mine that I worked with for nearly a decade at the Travel Corporation. He grew up through the Contiki brand and went on to great success across the company and ultimately moved back to Australia, where he's from, to lead one of the most iconic Australian multi-day tour companies, aat Kings.
Speaker 2:So you can look forward to that conversation next week. And don't forget, we post clips and highlights on all our social channels, which you can find at Travel Trends Podcast, on LinkedIn, on Instagram and YouTube, and then we send out a monthly update of all of our latest episodes and our travel plans for the next month, which you can register for at TravelTrendsPodcastcom. And then, don't forget, this series is brought to us by our sponsor, tour Optima. You can find out more information at TourOptimacom or just email Ben at TourOptimacom to set up a demo, because if you have a day tour or multi-day tour company and are eager to have your guests delighted and come back and book more trips, then you need to learn about their white label app that will allow your guides to be able to connect with your guests to make sure they have the best possible experience with your brand. Now, until next week. Safe travels.
