Travel Trends with Dan Christian
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Travel Trends with Dan Christian
The Future of Immersive Art & Experience with Vince Kadlubek, Meow Wolf
Step into the wonderfully weird world of Meow Wolf as founder Vince Kadlubek takes us behind the refrigerator door to reveal the journey from a dumpster-diving art collective to a multimillion-dollar immersive empire.
In this episode, Vince shares how a scrappy group of twenty-something artists in Santa Fe - working restaurant jobs and transforming recycled materials into fantastical realms - grew into one of the most talked-about immersive experiences in the world. A chance connection with Game of Thrones author George R.R. Martin secured their first permanent home in an abandoned bowling alley, setting the stage for Meow Wolf’s meteoric rise.
We explore how Meow Wolf taps into what modern travelers crave: physical spaces as surprising and addictive as the digital worlds we scroll through. From Omega Mart’s surreal grocery aisles in Las Vegas to exhibitions that captivate kids and grandparents alike, Vince explains how they create discovery, agency, and adventure for every visitor.
For anyone fascinated by the business of creativity, Vince also shares hard-won wisdom on prioritizing vision over logistics - a mindset that’s helped Meow Wolf evolve from a DIY art collective into an entertainment powerhouse with global ambitions.
Ready to find out why millions are stepping through refrigerators and into parallel worlds? This episode offers an inside look at the future of immersive experiences - and what they reveal about our deepest desire for wonder. For more information on Meow Wolf, please visit meowwolf.com.
👉 Listen to The Future of Immersive Art & Experience Now
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You know, ultimately it comes down to exploration and discovery, like that's what it's all about, and people want to explore and they want to discover, and they want to do so in a safe enough container, and so can you create an environment, and the environment has to be an environment of the unknown in order for exploration and discovery to be possible. So can you create an unknown environment where people can safely be adventurous in that way?
Speaker 2:Hello everyone and welcome back to Travel Trends. This is your host, dan Christian, and we are now in episode two of season six, and I just wanted to start by saying a huge thank you to everyone that shared their feedback about our opening episode with Chris Hemeter from Thayer Ventures. It was a real honor and a privilege to have him kick off our Captains of Industry series and was really exciting to see how much that resonated with so many of our listeners. Now we're going to continue our Captains of Industry theme as we launch into our In Destination series part two, which is proudly sponsored by our friends at Pernod Ricard, who share our passion for authentic experiences and helping shape the future of immersive travel. For more about their incredible work, I encourage you to check out their brand homes at perno-ricardcom pernod-ricardcom.
Speaker 2:Now, some of you may remember that we had our In Destination Experiences series that wrapped up season five, which was one of our most popular series ever, so we decided to bring it back and again partner with Pernod Ricard. We had a number of conversations that we were still keen to have, and Vince was one of those, but each of those conversations were clearly very impactful and very beneficial for many of our listeners and especially as we go into shoulder season for travel, we wanted to keep up the profile on in-destination experiences. Now, I actually saw Vince present for the very first time at the Arrival Conference in Las Vegas, so it was a real privilege to be able to bring him into this conversation. But speaking of Arrival, their 360 conference is coming up in Washington September 30th to October 3rd. I will be there hosting the brand new multi-day track.
Speaker 2:We've secured a special listener discount, which you can find on the homepage of our website, so be sure to join us and if you choose to book a ticket, make sure to let me know and I will include you in our special event spotlight from the Arrival Conference in Washington. You can also check out all the events that we have coming up this fall, and I'll be traveling extensively, so I look forward to seeing many of you in person over the next couple of months. Now let's bring in our first guest for our In Destination series, part two, vince Katalubic, one of the founders of Meow Wolf. Vince, it's so great to have you on Travel Trends. Thanks so much for joining us.
Speaker 1:Yeah, man, thanks for having me.
Speaker 3:I really appreciate it For sure, I'm so excited because we did our In Destination series in Season 5. We obviously are kicking off Season 6 with the exact same theme. Because it was so popular, the team of Pranav Rekhar kindly sponsored the series again and you were one of the key people that we wanted to have part of the conversation. So, as we kick off season six and do this first theme on in-destination experiences, I couldn't think of anyone better to have this conversation with. Because I was telling Vince this at the beginning of our conversation is that I saw him give the most amazing keynote at the Arrival Conference a couple of years ago. I was so inspired. We haven't actually met until today, but I was so inspired I went to the Omega Mart the next day. My we haven't actually met until today, but I was so inspired I went to the Omega Mart the next day. My wife went when she came in Vegas. I absolutely.
Speaker 3:I've shared his TED Talk with many other people. Don't stop this and go listen to it now, but definitely check it out after this recording. But, vince, tell us a little bit about Meowl, because it is such an amazing story, and those of you out there that don't know Meowl, tell us about this incredible origin story? Yeah, so Tell us about this incredible origin story.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I mean trying to describe Meow Wolf first off is like, it's dynamic, it's layered. You know, right now I'd say what we are, what we are most defined by, is that we're an arts and entertainment production company in Santa Fe, new Mexico, based in Santa Fe, that produces these large scale, monumental, immersive storytelling experience, experiences that are, that are built by the hands of artists, and so we have five of them open right now. We have our our original one is Santa Fe, and then we went to Vegas with Omega Mart, the one that you saw, and then we went to Denver, and then we have one in Dallas and Houston, and then we're working right now on our Los Angeles exhibition and then our New York exhibition. So, but where we started was completely different than where we are today, in a bowling alley.
Speaker 3:Tell us about this community that came together of creatives. I think that's like 2006. So this was well before the pandemic. Yeah, because a lot of these immersive experiences were almost kind of like fever in some of these companies like Stranger Things, and we'll have them on this series as well. But I think what you guys did was so ahead of its time and I still am convinced that every city needs a meow wolf and I think disney will acquire you guys at some point. I mean, you're the founder and chief business officer and I think that. But what you've done is so unique and it times so well with social media. But, yeah, tell us about this really cool community that formed together, because I think that was the part that I couldn't. I was like this is such a cool story about living in the suburbs and working these jobs and then like finding a way to express yourself through art, and then it led to an, a permanent installation in a bowling alley. But anyway, you please tell us yeah, happy to uh.
Speaker 1:2008 is when we started, um, we were all 20 somethings in santa fe, new mexico, um, you know, working our restaurant jobs and food delivery jobs and hotel jobs, like just trying to get by, and we were all artists in some way, like some of us were visual artists, some of us were, you know, through parties, some of us were performing, you know kind of performance, theatrical artists. And we, you know, we've decided that we wanted to kind of come together as a collective and, you know, find a cultural voice for ourself, maybe subcultural voice for ourself, in the city that we lived in. And you know, we had gone around, like to different museums and galleries and other groups to try to like engage, but we didn't really fit the quality, like the characteristics or qualities that Santa Fe really held, as you know, as its definable self. So we had a hard time kind of finding our way and we finally just said, like you know, you know, screw this, we're just going to open our own space. We're going to open our own, um, uh, space where we could like throw music shows, we could throw parties, we could host lectures, we could just hang out and have sleepovers, um, and we could make art, um, and so that's that's what we did. And you know, we all kind of bound together, had about 13 of us on that first, that first meeting back in 2008. And, uh, we all agreed to pitch a hundred bucks a month to rent a space, and, um, and then we, we needed a name. So we needed a name. That night, uh, cause we wanted to write a press press release and like let people know that we were starting something. We wanted to be like, you know, big kids in that way, and so we had a bunch of words in one hat and a bunch of words in another hat and we started pulling out words from both, from both the hats, and Meow Wolf was the one that we ended up voting on and agreeing to, to, to call ourselves and to call the space that we were renting. And, yeah, that was that was kind of how it started.
Speaker 1:And we didn't have money, so we didn't have money for materials, we didn't have money for paint, we didn't have money for, like you know, to buy wood or anything like that or, like you know, sculpting medium, so we literally just pulled materials out of dumpsters. The Salvation Army dumpster was like one of our favorite dumpsters, um, and they, salvation Army, would just let us go and like, just you know, go, you know, go through their, their, their materials, and we would load up a truck and we would take it back to our space and we'd start staple gunning and nail gunning stuff to the walls and then spray painting it and like whatever Christmas lights and fabric and whatever we could kind of get our hands on, um to create what we now call immersive art. Um, you know and we weren't the first to do immersive art we were inspired by folks like team lab and Kasama and Terrell Um, you know there's plenty of folks who had come before us, but you know we started doing it, um, from these recycled materials and that evolved. You know, we worked together as a group um revolving door of people, hundreds of people coming through to volunteer to make stuff. Like there was no rules or regulations as to who could be part of meow wolf. Like as long as you, as long as you showed up and wanted to do something, then you were part of meow wolf. Basically, like that's how it worked. And so we had hundreds of people come through over the years, um, and that happened for like six or seven years where we were making these immersive exhibitions at larger and larger scale and, you know, more integrity to them and more storytelling to them and more technology to them, but still from like an unofficial place, like we weren't a business, we were just like a group of people. And that all changed in 2014.
Speaker 1:I was walking through this bowling alley and I had no money. And I'm walking around with a real estate agent and it's 30,000 square foot bowling alley it's much bigger than anything we had like tried to build inside of before, like this would. This is massive to us at the time. And, uh, the real estate agent, you know, was like what do you think? And I was like, dude, this is it Like we need to. We need to get this space. How do we, how do we go about getting the space? And he was like well, how much money does Meow Wolf have to put down as a down payment? And I just I just laughed. I was like, dude, we don't have any money. We're not like a business, you know. He's like well, how much money I have? I'm sleeping on their couch right now, like I have no money. And so then you know he was a good real estate agent. He wouldn't take no for an answer. So he was like, well, who do you know who has money?
Speaker 1:And I, the first name that came to mind for me was George R R Martin, who, who I knew because he lives in Santa Fe and he owned a movie theater that I worked at, that I like had a $15 an hour job at. And uh, I was like, well, I could send an email to George and see if George is interested in this project. And so I did. And uh, yeah, george was like, let's talk. And so I I pitched him on the idea and pitched him on the, the project which is called the House of Eternal Return and it's our first permanent exhibition and still up today here in Santa Fe.
Speaker 1:And George just fell in love with the idea. He was just, like you know, I was pressing all the right for him, like game of Thrones had just reached sort of like you know, peak velocity, season four. And uh, yeah, he bought the bowling alley and he became our landlord and that was sort of the first domino, like from there I could, we could raise money. People were like, oh, wow, this is legit and raise money. And we hired people and we started working for 18 months to get the first project open. And um, the project opened in 2016 and um, we had no idea how it was gonna hit, but it was a viral success. Um, it was just right place, right time. Like, instagram had just sort of you know lot kind of taken off, and social media was really. It was all about sharing images on social media and experiences. And um, and meow wolf just struck a nerve. And so, within the first 12 months, we saw 500,000 people through the door and our bank account had millions of dollars in it.
Speaker 3:And, as I understand Vince, it was literally like $7 million in the first year. Is that about right? $500,000 and about $7 million in revenue in year one? Yeah, that's right. Yeah, it's staggering and so an incredible story with so much serendipity, not to the branding, to the fact that you happen to work at a theater, to be writer of Game of Thrones, to happen to own and happen to live in the same town One of the things that really stood out to me from your presentation.
Speaker 3:I learned many valuable insights, but one of the ones that really stayed with me was door to the refrigerator. You just talked about how it went viral with images that people could share on social channels. That would just have other people going. Oh my God, I need to experience this. Like the stars definitely aligned for you, but I'd love to understand, I guess, how much intentionality was there to that.
Speaker 3:I mean, clearly, you guys have been at this for almost 10 years at that point. Then you finally create this installation. Everyone already loves you, you have a huge audience, but now you do something that is like your first opus and the travelers respond to it and it's like a field of dreams moment for you guys, like literally, uh, you built it and they came um, but tell us a little bit about that experience of designing it, since you know you had this vision. So tell us a little bit more about the vision for the person. Obviously, I know you can't can't give stuff away. I've read a lot of articles of people to go visit. There's Easter eggs hidden in all of these places.
Speaker 1:But, yeah, tell us a little bit about the vision for what you wanted to create and what you wanted to the artistic meaning you wanted to share with your visitors. Yeah, you know, we wanted to create an environment of freedom, and not just physiological freedom Like I can move my body anywhere, I can go anywhere I want, I can walk wherever I want, I can sit wherever I want, I can just like be in this space but also psychological freedom where there was like no, you know, your mind isn't tethered to knowing as ferociously as your mind is tethered to knowing. In your everyday lives there's a limitation to knowing and having your environment so immediately psychologically defined and understandable. No-transcript. And we wanted to also subvert expectations. That was another very intentional instinct of ours.
Speaker 1:So you talked about the suburban house and so for some of your listeners, the context there is that the first space you enter into is a very realistic, like photorealistic, like perfect replica basically of a lived in Victorian home, and from there there's then secret passageways that take you into just like totally kind of abstract, immersive spaces, various rooms of art and sound and light and video and whatever, and so that subversion, um, kind of putting people in a place of of knownness, like starting them off in known, a known environment, like the house I've been in a house before, I know, I know what a refrigerator is, I know what, uh, you know, and then subverting that, it was a really powerful you know.
Speaker 1:And then subverting that was a really powerful you know, actually like kind of psychedelic experience where the reality itself has just been kind of dissolved and you've now, you know, you now venture through the parameters of your own mind into the rest of the exhibition and, um it, it became a profound experience for people Like we. We knew it would be fun and we knew it'd be novel and we knew it'd be beautiful, but we didn't know that it would be like transformative and so like that was kind of the big moment of being like Whoa, like this is like changing people's lives, and that's where you know, we, we realized we had hit something and and that's where we realized we had hit something and done something that was beyond just a fun attraction, totally One.
Speaker 3:I think that's the part when you highlighted the fact that you have agency and you're self-directed in the environment. It's such a unique experience over following a formulated path that's been set up for you to have a set experience at a theme park or on a ride, and so it is a choose-your-own-ad, your own adventure, which was definitely my generation growing up and some of my favorite books. But also I grew up in the suburbs and for me I felt a kinship to your story and the collective, because I grew up in mississauga, which is the biggest suburb outside of toronto, and I had very much that almost like the background of the Flintstones, like it repeats every like 10 seconds. Right, it's the same thing. It's like it's bland, and it's one of the things we didn't want our kids to grow up in the suburbs, because for me the beginning was to go to the mall and so I didn't love living in the suburbs. But I identify with being a suburban kid and so the fact that you go on this journey, that is. And so what I wanted to specifically ask you is is because you mentioned about timing, and obviously, yes, we do know for sure timing is such a critical, if not the most important ingredient to a successful startup.
Speaker 3:You look at companies like Viator who are on this series. We had Rod Hufford, the founder of Viator, where he talked about the fact that when he launched out of the nineties the site guys were shifting shifting from he owes the most toys wins to experiences that people were realizing that wasn't just about, and I'd love to understand from your vantage point. Obviously there's things like Burning man that are happening, you know, where something is created and then taken away and so, and clearly you're very artistic. So like what do you think? When you saw those people coming through in that first year, what did you see in their eyes? What did you think was happening? That all of a sudden, you had tapped into the zeitgeist of the moment where you created something so special that people did. So what do you think was happening in society or with people at that point that you guys just really nailed it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've thought a lot about this. Of course, you know, for context, for the listeners, when we opened the house of eternal return, I was the CEO at the time, so I was leading the charge then of like, where do we go from here? What's the secret sauce, like? What's magical about this? How do we replicate the magic? Like? What are the important qualities? You know all that, so I was like deeply in this thought process and process and it's pretty actually obvious.
Speaker 1:So the internet happened and the internet showed up on our phones, and then the internet went from showing up on our phones to then being packaged inside of these social networks and we were then scrolling. Facebook and Instagram those were the big ones at the time, and you know MySpace was a precursor to this and you know Snap had just shown up. But basically, the internet trained people from 2008. The mobile internet trained people, from like 2008 until and ongoing, to look for unique content, to look for unique experiences. Like at a Pavlovian level, like a hundred plus times a day, we will look for unique things that we've never seen before. And and then when we put our phones in our pocket and we go out into the real world, there's nothing unique out there. Like everything is copy paste, everything is predictable, everything is known like an amusement park. I've seen it a million times for decades, like it's not new. If we were on our phones, we would scroll right past the amusement park Cause we've seen it before. We would scroll right past the amusement park because we've seen it before. Right, so, like, so, meow wolf sort of became like this, this location-based in real life thing that you can't scroll past, like you have to go to because it's novel and it's triggering the same sort of like novelty response that we've trained ourselves to look for. Now, on on our you know, on the choose your own adventure of our digital lives, and so that's, um, you know, that's. That's kind of like.
Speaker 1:The base thesis is that you know the real world is so mundane and predictable compared to what we experience in the digital world, um, and so that's why things like Nate, like when you go out into nature, it's really like it's much more unknown, it's much more novel. Or when you travel to another country with a different culture, that's very unknown and your mind is aware, like at a different level of attention, because it's like having to learn, it's having to explore and discover and learn. So, you know, ultimately it comes down to exploration and discovery, like that's. That's what it's all about, and people want to explore and they want to discover and they want to do so in a safe, a safe enough container, like most people. And so can you create an environment, and the environment has to be an environment of the unknown in order for exploration and discovery to be possible. So can you create an unknown environment where people can safely be adventurous in that way, where people can safely, you know, be adventurous in that way.
Speaker 1:And you know, an art is actually like an amazing access point to creating environments of the unknown, because art is an original expression of things that people have never seen before, from the imagination, in a way, that then provides a context of the unknown, where where exploration and discovery is possible. So that's the, you know, that's kind of like the, the big aha, I guess, from this experience is like, and then tying it back to like what people are seeking these days and and what what really triggers their attention. You know, we'll be right back.
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Speaker 3:I want to understand the next phase of that journey, of all of a sudden, you as a team are looking at each other and saying can we do this again? Can we recreate this magic? I'd love to hear that story about how you guys decided to move on to the next project because you haven't fallen on your face yet. I love that about you and the team and that's why I think you've probably been careful with the number you've rolled out, but I think that's why I'm convinced that every city needs a Meow Wolf. So tell us a little bit how you decided to expand the concept where you decided to move to next and, yeah, how have you guys expanded this?
Speaker 1:journey. Sure, yeah, I mean. So it's important to note that Meow Wolf is a business, clearly, and it's important to note that Meow Wolf is a business, clearly, and it's also an artistic entity. It's a collective artistic entity made up of a lot of different artists and creatives and they're both of these things simultaneously. So Meow Wolf is as much a business venture as it is an ongoing art project or an art ongoing kind of creative expression. And so that's an interesting thing about about, about us, is that, like our trajectory is also us moving through different sort of eras, like an, like an artist would move through eras of their own lives, of their own expression. It's us moving through that too and kind of learning what interests us and how do we want to express ourselves differently. And so every one of the exhibitions that we've opened the five that we've opened so far, each of them is completely different. They have similar characteristics but they're different art, they're different stories and they're different environments and they're also different.
Speaker 1:We've played with different types of how one might engage with the journey of a Meow Wolf experience, wolf experience. So for Vegas, for instance, there's a whole like story track that you use your phone and people love it and it's like you deep dive into figuring out the story in a kind of more gamified way. Um, and we saw people respond to this incredibly well, like people are, there's a certain group of people, uh, who love this kind of component of it and you don't have to do it that way, like that's really important. Going back to agency, like we want to create layers so that you can experience Meow Wolf, really, however you choose to experience Meow Wolf, you can just walk around, you can chill out, you can, you can take pictures, you can. You know, you can also go on these like gamified, on these gamified sort of quests of sorts.
Speaker 1:So there's a whole evolution for Meow Wolf and our experiences, and you'll see it a lot in our Los Angeles exhibition and our New York exhibition, where you're not just in an immersive world that is sort of a static world. You're in an immersive world that's active, that is aware of you, that is responding to you, that has, you know, interactions that are meant for you as the you are the main character and for you to be, you know, to interact with the exhibition in a deeper way. Um, that also delivers on reward. Like also basically says like, if you do X, y, z, you're going to get this reward for doing that Um, and so that's that's where a lot of our our, our evolution is, is moving towards.
Speaker 1:And that takes technology. That takes, um, you know, sound light and video. Uh, that takes like a show that the entire world to be aware of who you are and where you are and what you've done, and be able to respond accordingly. So there's a lot of technology behind it. That is, um, you know, pretty profound actually that that we're leaning into more Um and and then hopefully, like even for those people who show up who just want to like they don't want to do anything, they just want to be in the world, the world will be even more animated and more active and more dynamic for even those people, people, for even the watchers and observers and, you know, chillaxers of the world, you know so, um, so yeah, that's kind of like where our interests are kind of moving towards.
Speaker 3:So fascinating, and the one thing I'm also keen to understand too, as you talk about omega mark in las vegas, and I think that you know is probably the venue that most of our listeners probably would have experienced, given what a popular destination that Vegas is. But the one thing I'm keen to understand with how it worked, with that and then also the newer projects, is that do you have the vision for Omega Mart first and then decide on Vegas, or is the art installation also connected to the community in which it's going to be launched? So that's my first question, as it relates to Omega Mart, and then, just following on from that, how does that apply then when you're thinking about Los Angeles and New York working with partners? So yes, is it the concept first and then the location, or is it a combination of the two together?
Speaker 1:It's very chicken and egg Like Omega Mart. We actually did so. Omega Mart's a fake grocery store. It's a fake grocery store. It's a real grocery store. I don't know if it's a fake grocery store or a real grocery store. It's both at the same time. It's both a fake and real grocery store at the same time. We built a grocery store and operate a grocery store, but the grocery store is an alternate reality grocery store filled with products on the shelves that you can actually buy. They're all really funny and like the level of depth that was created is pretty profound. Um, and honestly, like I'm not just blowing smoke like omega mart is one of the best things to do in vegas, like hands down.
Speaker 3:uh, it should be on everybody's agree 100 agree yeah, it's so unique and it's like it's you know, it's so impactful and I was going to say one thing I'm just going to quickly add there, because I didn't realize this with my wife, like so this is when I went, and then my wife went and I talked to people that went and you kind of pick up different things because everyone's journey is unique, and then you're also did you discover this secret package? No way, I didn't know that that was there. It's just like I didn't go behind the t-shirts and then realize there's a staircase, or I didn't realize that. You know, I was like you could speaking to people. It's like your first day on the job and you need to go up for the training first and then like and then it's just so.
Speaker 3:Anyway, there's all these things that again, I don't want to get too much away because I think it is best for people just to walk in the less you know the better and just start shopping, like it's a grocery store, as you said, and enjoy that and then start yeah, but anyway. So, yeah, tell us a bit about. Yeah, how did omega mart was? Was the intention then for vegas, with that particular inflation?
Speaker 1:yeah. So we had done omega mart in 2012 as an, as an art collective, in a small little space in santa fe, like a small little, like fake grocery store in santa fe. We'd done it once before and when you know, when we opened the house of eternal return, it was successful we knew we wanted to go to other cities. Vegas was not on the list to go to, at least right away, because vegas, you know, we, we're, we're a group of people in Santa Fe, new Mexico. Like Vegas kind of scared us and also like, yeah, it was hard for us to reconcile, like how would we show up in Vegas? Um, but we found a really great partner with area 15 and Winston Fisher and um, and we just, you know, kind of had to say yes to the opportunity because it was so aligned.
Speaker 1:And when we did, we kind of went through and we're like, okay, well, how do we show up in Vegas authentically and in a way that is responsive to the city, to the culture?
Speaker 1:And so, you know, it's so consumerist, heavy, it's so like buy, buy, buy, kind of like you know, spend money, spend money, spend money. That the Omega Mart concept fit really well. It was like, all right, let's let's do a kind of commentary on consumerism and kind of then move people through this a deeper, spiritual, burner, very burner, influenced visionary artwork, influenced space spaces, beyond that actually like slows is meant to slow you down, is meant to like get you deeper into the vibe of experience and move you past the kind of like dopamine hit of buying product. And so we definitely designed the project in response to Vegas in a lot of ways, and we do that in all of our cities. So Los Angeles is very much a Los Angeles project and New York is very much a New York project. And part of how we do that too is we work with local artists. So we make sure that we bring in a good percentage of local artists to work on the shows, because that's how it becomes authentic to the location.
Speaker 3:Totally. Tell us a little about the journey you go on, the timing it takes, the involvement of multiple stakeholders and the process of coming up with this creative concept that then becomes something that you are going to build or pitch or bring to life.
Speaker 1:Yeah, from beginning to end it's about a three and a half year process to get one of these exhibitions developed and opened. It moves through a development process left to right that starts off very creative and very sort of free of parameter and you know we all have to kind of step into a place of anything's possible and, you know, start to there's. There's a lot of collaboration, obviously across different expertise and we have to have a language of collaboration with each other, like there has to be yes and and there has to be trust first and there has to be like a sensibility to the energy and momentum in the room. You know Rick Rubin talks a lot about this in his book. It's like there's this sort of mysterious creative energy that you have to be aware of in a collaborative room and you can feel it and you run with it and you work with it, and so it starts off at a very blue sky level level and then, as it works across the timeline of development, it starts to get into project delivery and detail oriented and logistics and spreadsheets and punch lists and you know it starts to get more and more like that. Luckily we've done five of these now, so we have a lot of like learnings from the five that we've done, and we've had a lot of people in the themed entertainment space you know, disney and universal like folks who are, you know, have lived and breathed this type of like work, you know, come in and help, you know, bring what they know into the process. But meow is unique, so we also have like been bringing to them the processes that we've developed over time and so, you know, we're in a really good place right now where we can move as a team through these, through these phases.
Speaker 1:Um, and yeah, you know, like we have to both consider. We have to consider both like what makes us excited, what what creates like a just, organic, passionate energy, because you don't want to do anything that doesn't do that. But then you have to kind of like find the venn diagram of where what makes what makes you feel passionate also is going to resonate with your audience, and so there is a considering of the audience, you know, in a very authentic way, like we, we love you, thank you for loving us. We want to, we want to entertain you, we want to give you something that's going to be awesome and we also want to do what's awesome for us. So like we're always kind of balancing that too, you know, um, staying true to ourselves and staying original while also providing something to a general audience that is kind of like immediately fun and entertaining and enjoyable and worth their time and money, you know.
Speaker 1:So like it's a, it's an interesting process and the immersive industry is a really interesting one, cause, like there's a lot of high priced, lower quality things out there now Like people, it's kind of like a cash grab in a lot of ways, and so the general audience has sort of grown a little bit skeptical or maybe tired of immersive, and so what Meow Wolf is trying to do right now is, like we believe in immersive, of course. We believe in immersive storytelling, immersive art, we believe in, like, the future of experiences and we want to just do it the right way and we want to be premium and we want people to say meow, we'll set a different level, like forget what you know about immersive. Like meow, we'll sell a whole different level of of of what you know about immersive. Like a meow will sell a whole different level of of of what you know. And I think we're achieving that. I think we're, I think we're getting there with that.
Speaker 3:So I think you're there. I mean, it's still out of the box to your point about some of these cookie cutter examples. I mean, living in Toronto, near Niagara Falls, like a mini Vegas, and you have all of your Ripley's believe it or not type exhibits and these very standard what you expect in a definitely points of interest, upside down houses and some of these things that are just like, as you described, in many ways a cash grab. What do you see overall the role of technology in the immersive experience and have you, out of interest, considered a truly just virtual experiences? I say that because I'm seeing Gen AI startups now that are doing clever things working with big production firms that give you the ability to create your own South Park show. It's like you love the show, you love the characters, create your own. I don't know that that's the path for me at all, but I just was very curious to know if you're committed to offline interactive entertainment with a technological component or if you've considered going down the path of virtual experiences.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's a good question. I would fundamentally say that IRL, in real life physical experiences, are the bedrock of Meow Wolf and they're the bedrock of our thesis, and I think that the thesis is even more profound today with AI than ever before, because, with AI, like you just said, these tools are going to make it so that anyone can create any digital experience that they want at any time, and so what's going to end up happening is a total flood of content. It's just basic supply and demand. There's going to be a much higher supply than there is demand in the digital space. So, you know, the physical space will become even more novel, because AI is going to be have a really hard time for a while trying to build a physical space, and so it, foundationally, the physical spaces are like the. They are the pillars of, of the Meow Wolf experience. That's not to say, though, that like extensions of that and you know, meaningful extensions not just like satellites, not just like these, like derivative projects that float out here, as you know, but things that are actually meaningfully connected to the exhibitions, to the physical spaces. You know, we're totally into that. We did a, we did a virtual reality mini golf game last year that you know that was really successful. That took one of our Meow Wolf worlds and converted it into a virtual world where people could play mini golf inside of it and like it's it's on a game called walkabout mini golf and it's a really great game and so people love that and that started to tell us like, yeah, like Meow Wolf's creative perspective and experience, design perspective actually translates in um, in virtual. So right now we're exploring like what? What a television series look like? What would an animated series look like? What's the graphic novel for the? We're exploring what a Meow Wolf AR experience would look like. And so, yeah, I think all of these things are interesting because they're all creative expressions and Meow Wolf is a creative, is an artist, is a collective artist, and so they're all different ways of expressing ourselves.
Speaker 1:I think where there's going to be an evolution for the consumer or the audience is that connectivity is going to matter and honoring an audience member's time in your universe is going to matter. People are going to want to be recognized for their participation in the immersive universe that you've created, because otherwise you're just a ghost in that universe, you're just a passive observer of the universe. People want to be recognized for their time in the universe, and so that's the big thing that we're working on. For example, when you go and ride the Guardians of the Galaxy ride Cosmic Rewind at Epcot, that ride has no idea how many of the Guardians movies you've watched. I could have spent hours and hours and hours and hours watching Guardians movies over and over again and like reading all the books and like being so, so immersed. But then when I show up to this ride, it doesn't know, like, how much time I've spent in the Guardians universe. It doesn't honor me or recognize me for that. And that's the big piece that we're trying to like, trying to evolve.
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Speaker 3:What do you see, especially with media? This is do you see international travelers coming to the us to experience meowable? How much of your audience now is international travelers. They're so intrigued by this but all ultimately then choose to come to la or new york, like it's the reason that they're coming, because I'm sure people choose to go to megamart and they go to vegas because, oh, megamart's there now, like, and I can do other cool things, but it's um, yeah, tell us if you wouldn't mind a bit of like a profile of the customers how much is american and how much is international, and do you have plans for international expansion?
Speaker 1:yeah. So you know, right now it's what's interesting is like visitorship to omega mart in vegas, from a demographic perspective, is very similar to to to visitorship to Vegas at large. So you know, probably like 10% of our visitors are are international, um, and then a large, a large percentage is California, you know, and then a smaller percentage is the rest of the country and a smaller percentage is Las Vegas locals, um, and so it's, and so it's a broad mix. I would say. Even more interesting, though, for Meow Wolf is that we appeal to a very broad range of folks. Like you can be 80 years old and go inside of any of our Meow Wolves and you can just enjoy the kind of spectacle and the art and the detail and the unique experience of it all. Or you can just enjoy the like, the kind of spectacle and the art and the detail and the unique experience of it all. And or you can be five years old and you can go in and just be like immersed in the imagination and like see it as a playground. That agency that we talked about earlier really allows for anyone to experience meow wolf at the level that they want to experience it at and have an awesome time. And so you know, of course, like you know, the kind of millennial Gen Z family or maybe Gen X millennial family is like a really core demographic, like 30 to 40 year olds who have kids where, like you know, like Gen X hasn't really grown up, you know, and millennials definitely haven't grown up, like we still want to go and do like very youthful things and very fun, exciting, adventurous things and we want to do them with our kids, and so that's a really amazing demographic because you have multiple generations who are able to go and experience something together and everybody has a great time, no one's compromising, like everyone's having a great time and they can leave that space, they can leave a Meow Wolf and they can all talk about it afterwards and talk about their favorite part and talk about what was cool for them. And that's the neatest thing I think about what we've created. It's this multi-generational, you know, kind of opportunity.
Speaker 1:And yeah to your question about, like, are we planning on going international? I mean, I think so. I think like it makes sense for us to start to explore, like, how a Meow Wolf might show up in other other continents. Um, you know, we don't have anything concrete right now, we're focused on Los Angeles and New York, um, but yeah, absolutely, I mean, I think, uh, we we have a lot of friends in other countries that are like you guys should come here. You know you would slay it and, of course, you know we would love to do that.
Speaker 1:Asia obviously has like a long history of Team Lab doing phenomenal work. London is a hotbed like is probably like one of the capitals in the world of immersive theater. Of course, what's happening in, you know, saudi Arabia and the Middle East with regards to like how much they're investing in immersive. I personally love Australia and like the art community in Melbourne Like there's so much. You know Singapore is like an amazing place for these crazy immersive experiences Some of my favorite that I've ever been to. You know. Singapore is like an amazing place for these crazy immersive experiences some of my favorite that I've ever been to, you know. So, yeah, yeah, they're, you know, international would be an interesting thing for us to start to.
Speaker 3:You know, move towards totally the world needs more meow wolf. I'll just say that here and now, toronto would be a great location for you, certainly europe. I love australia as well, and they need something more interesting, like the big banana or these giant fruit, because they sort of got the wrong message for american tourism that you sort of build something that is somewhat abstract in the middle of nowhere and people drive to it. So I would way rather see people be immersed in a meow wolf experience and so well just, I'm excited.
Speaker 1:Just a little bit of a caveat there. Like, I agree, like I we want to put me, I will wherever it makes sense, and you know. But the world needs more art, the world needs more creativity, the world needs more, uh, unexpected things Like it's. It's it's way too predictable, like, and people are ready to have things out in the world, out in the real world, that are, that, are, that are novel, beautiful, thought-provoking, uh, weird, um, and art does this, like artists know how to do this and so like, just to kind of like shift it a little bit, because it's not about meow wolf taking over the world, but it is about moving the human experience into one of greater imagination and, you know, more dynamic qualities, and I think that, like, the artist is core to the evolution of the human experience.
Speaker 3:Yeah, that was a much better way to put it, for sure. I mean, obviously my passion and interest in the outlook is like what you do. The world needs more of that, but exactly what you just absolutely did is, and that you know, certainly one of the things is like the environments that especially kids in the suburbs have grown up in, so like, and the thing you'd speak to about multi-generational, which is obviously a big theme, with the travel as well, which is how you're tapping into those things that so much of our lives has become homogenous Like the houses are all the same, the plazas are all the same, and what you just described is exactly, I think, what is unexpected and it's refreshing and it's incredibly stimulating for the mind when you link up with the journey you've been on so far. What, to you, has been the most rewarding moment since you started Meowsa?
Speaker 1:The most rewarding moments are when we're in the completed work, the exhibitions. The most rewarding moments for me I should say I should just speak for myself here like is being inside of the exhibitions and observing joy. Like observing other people's joy of the of the spaces and they could be kids, they could be adults, they could be people in their you know, their later stages of life. Seeing that joy, seeing sort of like the kid inside of everyone come out, is the best. That's like it makes all of the work worth it.
Speaker 3:Given. You're in your 40s now and obviously you started this in your 20s, so you've got all this perspective and wisdom. If you were to go back and have that conversation with yourself in 2006, what advice would you give yourself knowing? What you know now about how this journey would end up I would have.
Speaker 1:I would have told myself to like honor the space that meow wolf has found itself in and to treat, treat it with care, because it's a very special thing. That um is is sort of like it takes, it takes a different, takes a different level of um responsibility and care. Maybe Um, I didn't, I didn't fully recognize it, Like I was sort of so as CEO. I was so like go, go, go, go, go, and inside of my own mind and identity and like never stopped to really understand that I was like a um, I was, I was shepherding something that was beyond me and shepherding something beyond me that is incredibly special, like and and deserves the, the care necessary, like the integrity and the care um and so, yeah, that would be my advice to my younger self like stop for a moment and have like a deeper appreciation for the position of um, the position responsibility.
Speaker 3:That's very cool and sounds like you know you're very humble. That's something that stood out to me, even on stage or seeing you just in the room and speaking to you now, like it's like the success that you're very clearly conscientious of the brand's purpose, its meaning and keeping that, maintaining that focus when it comes to you mentioned Rick Rubin, so I want to question that In terms of creative inspiration for someone like yourself, where do you draw inspiration? Clearly from a specific artist? So Rick Rubin, of course, for our listeners, he's a famous producer. He's produced some of the biggest albums in music and he also wrote a fantastic book called the Creative Act, which actually bought for our producer of our podcast because he was very creative and he's the one that helped me bring this show to life.
Speaker 1:And so, uh, where do you draw your inspiration from? Uh, you know there's a lot, a lot of places. I would say that, fundamentally, like the dark rides of Disneyland um were the first inspiration for me prior to the Caribbean's, probably like one of the biggest influences of me of my life, um, I also talk a lot about Terrence McKenna, though he's not an artist. Terrence McKenna is a philosopher and scientist, I guess you would say, and a poet very much so. That was hugely inspirational to me in my late teens. These days I am really in love with like music as probably the biggest inspiration. It's an inspiration of, of vibration, a vibe that is probably the most immersive that I, that I experienced is like when I sit down and listen to like music on a, on a, on a, you know, and listen to music on a solid sound system, I can be in a world that that musician has created. And I love Joaquin Cornejo, who's an artist from South America, another South American artist named El Buho. I love this band that's been around for a while called Cora. Anyway, yeah, there's a lot in the kind of electronic music realm that is inspirational to me. What? What's happening in immersive, immersive theater still strikes a chord. It's a hard nut to crack, but when you get immersive theater right it's kind of the most special thing that you've ever experienced. And so there's a group called Third Rail that has created some profoundly inspiring immersive theater experiences.
Speaker 1:Of course, punch Drunk, you know, and yeah, you know, it's just like it's hard to. It's hard to really nail, but once you nail it it's like it has completely taken over my soul. Yeah, oh. And the City Museum I got it. I got to call out City Museum. Um, yeah, oh. And the city museum I got it. I gotta call out city museum. City museum in st louis, forever, always sort of the godfather of inspiration.
Speaker 3:Yeah, like city music okay, cool, all right, I've never been, but I've got friends that live in st louis.
Speaker 3:I'm gonna reach out to them at this point. Yeah, okay, I've got two last questions for you, one that I have to ask because all of our listeners, you know, one of the things I do recognize that I have the privilege to speak to you and get this time together, so I'm always trying to be conscientious of what our listeners would really like if they have this privilege to have this conversation with you. What they'd like to ask but I know so many of our listeners they're entrepreneurs or they're making their way up in the travel industry, and that's a big focus for us is trying to democratize access to information that can be beneficial. I always think of myself 20 years ago riding my bike in a lonely planet. I was listening to podcasts, trying to apply these learnings to my roles, listening to people that you know had great accomplishments, and so one of the things I would really like to ask you is that, for those other creatives out there who want to turn their passion projects into a sustainable business, what advice would you give them?
Speaker 1:Well, you have to envision it first and envision it fully. A lot of times there's like a loose envisioning of what the passion project, how the passion project might be able to turn into a business. But you have to envision it fully, like and that includes putting together profit and loss models and revenue models and business plans. And you know, like, you have to figure out as part of the vision, as part of the artwork, as part of the creative work, you know, not separate from it. As part of the creative work, you have to kind of like, start to incorporate the vision of how this thing is going to be sustainable. And, um, you, you, you can't let the how get in the way of the what. That's really important. So oftentimes, pretty much all the time, uh, the time, somebody will have a what and they'll start to go through the vision process of it. They'll be like, okay, so we could do this and we could do that. But then immediately there's like but how are we going to do that? Who's going to do it? Like, how, I don't know how to do that, how, how am I ever going to be able to do that? Or like, oh god, this is going to take millions of dollars, like, how am I ever going to be able to do that? Or like, oh God, this is going to take millions of dollars. Like, how am I ever going to get that money?
Speaker 1:And we let the how and sort of the impossibility of the how or the, the the illusion of the impossibility of the how, disrupt our vision process, and then we never do it because we, we don't allow ourselves to continue thinking through it. And so you have to like trust that you'll get to the how and trust that the how will take care of itself. Like, as long as you have a vision that's fully baked, that's well understood, that can be communicated to someone else, that makes logical sense, that excites people, that excites you. If you have that well baked, then it, you know, you're committed to it. The how will happen.
Speaker 1:Like the people will come, the money will come in, investors will come in. Like you'll be on a journey and the how will be a series of failures and you, but you will eventually get there. And so you know that's the. You know people say like follow your dreams or never give up. And that's a really basic way of saying it. I think, specifically, you can't let the context of the current moment and what you know how to do and what's possible in the current context, compromise the possibilities of the future. You have to be open to the possibilities of the future being profoundly different than the possibilities that you might feel in the moment. So, um, yeah very insightful.
Speaker 3:Yeah well, thank you for sharing that. That's uh very meaningful and I know that. A number of things that stood out to me there, I'm sure, and the um, the what and the how. Obviously, I think that's the um, focusing on the how over the what.
Speaker 1:That's one of the like, so clearly you're still on this journey and one other piece there is, like, which I didn't talk about, but the also. You can't, you can't let the what compromise the why. So the foundation is the why, the foundation is you being so passionately connected to doing something Like why am I doing this? I'm doing it because I love this and you have to be so connected to that and you can't let yourself develop a what that takes away from that why. And so it's really. It starts with the foundation of why, then what and then how, almost in that sequential order or in that stack.
Speaker 3:Um, so just wanted to make sure I added that piece, because it's really important no, it's a great framework and I love doing this podcast and I've absolutely loved this conversation and this has been so meaningful to me. I just want to leave with one last question, vince. We've talked a lot about some of the future plans. I'd just like to leave with your vision for Meow Wolf, whether it's 10 years from now, 20 years from now, and if there's any special projects that you would love to work on in the future.
Speaker 1:Well, I mean I really want to do an amusement park or a roller coaster, at least a roller coaster Like I'm a coaster enthusiast and so you know I definitely would love for Meow Wolf to do like a full scale roller coaster meets dark ride, where we get to like really lean into it fully as a project. So that's a dream of mine.
Speaker 3:I don't know if it's a dream of anyone else here at the company, but it's a dream of mine you might have to pull off a solo mission just to be like release your platinum album on your own and just go and do a roller coaster and then come back to uh yeah yeah, possibly so, I don't know like, but the future for me album it's, you know, 10, 15 years.
Speaker 1:We're in such, we're in such a wild time as for, like, the entirety of humanity, like, I don't even know exactly what experience looks like 15 years from now. You know, all I know is, wherever the world is at with regards to media, entertainment, storytelling, experience, I hope that meow wolf is creating beautiful, lovely, magical and and authentic works within whatever medium exists, you know, or whatever convergence of mediums exists, like. I think that Meow Wolf will continue to stand similar to Dr Seuss and similar to Jim Henson and similar to Miyazaki and similar to Walt himself Seuss and similar to Jim Henson and similar to Miyazaki and similar to Walt himself. Like that, meow Wolf will stand as a, as as a creative studio that you can trust to bring lovely, beautiful experiences. Very cool.
Speaker 3:And very well said. So thank you so much for those pins. I'm obviously looking forward to making sure that I get to all the Meow Wolf experiences and good luck with the projects in New York and Los Angeles. I certainly look forward to making sure that I get to all the Meow Wolf experiences and good luck with the projects in New York and Los Angeles. I certainly look forward to seeing you at some of the future conferences and I want to make sure that all of our listeners that have just got to meet Vince for the first time go check out his TED Talk it is incredibly inspiring as well but also check out Meow Wolf. Learn more about what these guys are doing and let it inspire you in your life and hopefully you'll find some additional purpose direction for your business by stepping out of your current world and stepping into one of the worlds they've created. So thank you for doing everything you do and thank you so much for making the time for this.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Thanks for having me. Thanks for all the kind words. This was awesome.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much for joining us on our latest episode of Travel Trends. I hope you enjoyed today's conversation with Vince Katalubic, one of the founders of Meow Wolf. For more information, you can check out meowwolfcom. And I just wanted to say a special thanks again to our in-destination sponsor, the team over at Pernod Ricard. For more information about their brand homes, check out perno-ricardcom. Now our series continues next week with the VP of marketing for Viator, laurel Graytricks. She is a true captain of industry as well, and you'll hear that for yourself in next week's conversation. So make sure you are subscribed on the streaming platform of your choice. And don't forget, we do post clips and highlights on all our social channels Instagram, linkedin and YouTube and we do send out a monthly newsletter, which you can register for at TravelTrendsPodcastcom. Until next week, safe travels.
