Travel Trends with Dan Christian
#1 B2B Travel Podcast. If you are looking to stay ahead in the travel industry, this new podcast hits all the highlights! The Travel Trends Podcast is where industry leaders converge to share & shape the future. Whether you're an emerging entrepreneur, a seasoned industry executive, or a dedicated travel professional, you’ll be able to stay ahead in a rapidly evolving landscape.
Uncover valuable insights, innovative strategies, and meaningful connections that will elevate your travel business or career to new heights.
Travel Trends with Dan Christian
Uncharted Worlds: Perspective-Shifting Journeys with Crooked Compass
Curiosity changes everything. That’s the thread running through our conversation with Crooked Compass founder and CEO Lisa Pagotto, whose frontier-travel philosophy favors depth over dazzle and local impact over checklists. In this second episode of our Emerging Multi-Day Tour Operators series, we explore how she designs perspective-shifting journeys in safe yet overlooked destinations — from Papua New Guinea’s highland festivals and WWII relics to Mongolia’s sweeping steppe — and why honesty about difficulty, logistics, and culture leads to more meaningful travel.
Lisa reveals the craft behind the brand: small-group tours capped at 12, a post-pandemic rise in private touring, and a rigorous duty of care that comes before any itinerary is built. For her, sustainability isn’t about box-ticking — it’s about keeping money in local communities and creating genuine cultural exchange. We also look at who’s booking these trips: often 55-plus, well-traveled, with a growing solo-female segment seeking connection, storytelling, and transformation.
We chart what’s next in frontier travel — from the Balkans and the Silk Road’s five Stans to North Africa’s unsung gems like Tunisia and Algeria. Lisa also shares how she evaluates post-conflict destinations such as Iraq or Syria through careful risk frameworks, and why transparent pre-trip education turns hesitation into confidence. Along the way, a remarkable field story from North Korea challenges perceptions and captures the true spirit of perspective-shifting travel.
Come for the inspiration, stay for the playbook — how to spot emerging destinations, build local partnerships, and choose journeys that make a difference. Learn more at crooked-compass.com.
👉 Listen to Uncharted Worlds: Perspective-Shifting Journeys with Crooked Compass Now
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You don't join the travel and tourism industry to become a millionaire. You join it for passion. And for anybody who has been successful in their own business, you will know that passion is what makes you succeed. It's what drives you and it what it's what makes things happen, and um that is what makes you successful.
SPEAKER_02:Hello everyone and welcome back to Travel Trends. This is your host, Dan Christian. And today we're going to continue our deep dive into the world of emerging tour operators by speaking to Lisa Pagad, who is the founder and CEO of Crooked Compass. She's based in Sydney, and she's had this company for over 10 years and has built a really unique business that I'm very keen for our global listeners to learn more about. Last week you heard from Nabila, who started A Dose of Travel. More recently, a young entrepreneur. And next week you're going to hear from Will Cannes, who runs active England tours to round out our global perspective. And this series is brought to us in partnership with our friends over at Tor Seta, who are focused on building out the all-in-one platform for group and multi-day tour operators and giving travelers a great booking experience and enabling tour operators to automate their operations. They are all about powering the modern multi-day tour companies. You can learn more about them at TorSeta.com. Thanks again to Alex and the team for sponsoring this series and enabling us to have the types of conversations that I personally are very interested in, but also I'm very bullish on with the growth potential for these multiday tour brands. So today you're going to hear from Lisa Pagat. And don't forget, we do post clips and highlights on our social channels. So you can hear more from Lisa if you check out LinkedIn, Instagram, and YouTube at Travel Trends Podcast. And we do put out a monthly newsletter that you can sign up for at Traveltrendspodcast.com. Now let's continue our emerging day tour series and bring in Lisa Pagat, the founder and CEO of Crooked Compass. Thank you for joining us, Lisa.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, thank you so much, Dan. An absolute pleasure to be here as well.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I'm so keen to learn more about Crooked Compass, and I'm excited for this conversation because we've not met, we don't know each other, we've got probably got lots of people in common. And of course, you're in one of the most beautiful parts of the world where I would love I would rather spend half of my time, which is Australia. So tell everyone, if you wouldn't mind, where you're uh where you're based.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, so I'm on the Central Coast, which is an hour north of Sydney in New South Wales, and I have to say we are in the middle of summer, and it is just beautiful over here. It is the perfect time that you should be here.
SPEAKER_02:Yes, it's uh my ideal. I spent a few years living in Australia and I was working with Lonely Planet, and I've spent a lot of time there in the last several years, and I love Australia, and I definitely could divide my time between Canada and Australia, and I think that is the future plan. But let's let's talk about you and let's talk about Crooked Compass. So tell everyone, just to start, what Crooked Compass is. And of course, as we're having this conversation, people can check out crooked-compass.com to learn more information. But uh tell us a little bit about the brand from your point of view.
SPEAKER_00:Sure. So we are a tour operator and we really focus on those lesser-known destinations. For us, we love, I guess, what you could technically classify as frontier travel. So places that haven't really been too touched by tourism, places that are still very traditional, very untouched, and they're just so ripe for that person who has been everywhere looking for that what's new and what's next. So that's really what we focus on. We do it in two ways. We have our small group tours, which are a maximum of 12 people with scheduled departures. And then we also do private touring in any of our destinations that we do the small group tours for those people who, you know, don't travel in a small group, it's not quite their thing. Um, but they're they're looking for that flexibility and that exclusivity and and that unique element of private touring.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, it makes sense with your magazine called Uncharted as well. So that certainly fits with the brand. Um but tell us a little bit about how you created this brand, how long ago you actually established a brand, and what inspired you to create and launch Crooked Compass.
SPEAKER_00:Sure. So we turned 10 this year. So we're we're 10 years old, which is incredible and uh a very, a very proud moment for me. Um but I do have to say it wasn't something that was actually on the radar to go out and start my own business. Uh, I've been in the travel industry for 23 years now, and uh at the beginning of my career, I, you know, I knew that this was the industry for me, but I just couldn't quite find my fit. And I worked through different roles. I started off as a travel advisor and then moved behind the scenes into the wholesale and tour operator space, and I was like, oh yeah, this this is a bit more me. And then combined with, you know, when you're in your early 20s, you go and you take a year off, and whilst most people go and backpack through Europe, uh, I did mine a little bit differently. I didn't want to do what everybody else did. And so my first country that I went to was Tunisia. Uh and I just loved it. It was the first time that I had been somewhere that was not Western. It was the first time I'd heard call to prayer, and I was just so fascinated and I thought this is what I'm gonna do for my for my year off. And so instead of drinking my way through Germany and France with everybody else that was 21, I went through Tunisia and India and Morocco and places that weren't normal for a 21-year-old. And when I came back into the travel industry, I I knew I had to find something that connected with that passion, and I moved into the space of adventure travel. Uh, I had a couple of years working in that space in various roles through sales marketing and product development, and uh was then recruited to start a new touring brand for another company. And after doing that for about 18 months, I had a bit of a light bulb moment of I have just spent almost two years building an entire brand and product for somebody else. Why aren't I doing this myself in my style? There wasn't anybody in the Australian market who was doing travel the way that I personally traveled. And I figured if this is how I travel, surely, surely there's other people out there who want to travel like this as well.
SPEAKER_02:That's fascinating. And tell us the name itself, the branding, because I uh, you know, clearly you're a maverick in the travel industry, and I obviously am intrigued for this conversation for many reasons. Obviously, having a strong female founder leading a successful global business like this, but also you have traveled extensively uh globally, as you were just highlighting, to places like Yemen and to North Korea or even Palestine, and I guess recently Algeria. So, like some of the places you've been to. So tell us about the crooked cumbers branding. Uh, how did you come up with that name? And I guess what does it mean to you?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so I was I was looking for words that said off the beaten track without being cliche. And I had a list, I still have the original list, it's still saved in my phone of all the different variations that I came up with. And I uh sent them all to my family and closest friends and said, which one do you guys think? Let's do a vote. Choose the one that you feel says crooked uh that says off the beaten track without it being cliched. And crooked compass was by far the winner. So that was the basis of it. And um yeah, it's still very, very true to the core of what we do today.
SPEAKER_02:That's great. And then is your primary source market Australia? I know you're based there. How much of your existing customer base are in Australia and how many do you pick up from other countries as well?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so being an Australian-based business, this is where our main marketing activities are focused. So we are very Australian-centric in terms of passenger nationalities. We do get uh, I would say 5% of our business comes from international markets, and that's a combination of the US and UK predominantly, with a little bit of, you know, Singapore expats and those sorts of people as well.
SPEAKER_02:And then you mentioned obviously the two different kind of trip styles and the small groups being one of them. And when I was preparing for a call, I was looking through all the destinations that you have on your website, which is quite impressive. And I guess what I'd love to know is which are kind of your kind of your big three destinations that you tend to send most of those Australian travelers to.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, sure. So position one and two seem to jump between each other, um, and that is Mongolia and Papua New Guinea. They're our two largest by far. Uh, and third, we it hasn't bounced back yet because the border is still not opened with North Korea. So at the moment, Turkey and India are sort of sitting in those, in that, you know, third, jostling for third. Uh, but yeah, that the second that that North Korean border reopens, the wait list that we have, I'm it it could even shoot up to number one. Uh, it's yeah, it's very exciting for when that eventually comes back into our portfolio.
SPEAKER_02:Well, I mean I'm keen to ask you about Papua New Guinea. I know you've just come back uh from there, but also when I lived in Australia, clearly it's uh the proximity is very close, and it's a very intriguing destination. I read the book uh Guns, Germs, and Steel, um, which is one of my favorite uh long before I discovered Sapiens by Yuval Noah Harari, of course, he was actually inspired um uh to write that based on Guns, Germs, and Steel. And the whole basis of that book starts off with Jared Diamond uh traveling to Papua New Guinea and the locals trying to understand why white people have all this cargo as he referred to it. Like, why do you come with all this stuff? And so I've always been intrigued to travel to Papua New Guinea. And uh so tell us a little bit. When again, when I was looking at your website, I could see that you had, you know, four or five-day itineraries, uh week-long itineraries as well. But uh take our listeners through like what a crooked compass experience is like in Papua New Guinea.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, it is definitely not for everybody. I will frame that right at the beginning. Um, however, for those people who are that curious, very open-minded, very flexible type of traveler, it is unlike anything, anything else on the planet. And as you say, yes, it is literally in our backyard, you know, off the coast of Australia. If you fly from Cairns, it's less than an hour to get to Port Moresby. Uh, in terms of the experience, it really depends on which part of the country you go to. And whilst the country is quite small, it's got 23 22 different provinces, and every single province is so completely contrasting. So you can have, you know, a really gentle entry level into Papua New Guinea for those people who are fascinated in World War II history, um, love seeing that sort of you know, Japanese relics doing cool things like going through underground tunnels and um that were also underground hospitals, which are amazing, through to moving more into your Highlands area, which is where you get the impressive hairdressers and the festivals with the paint and the colours and the sing sings, which is their, you know, traditional dancing and beating their kundu drums, and that's generally what most people think of when they think of, you know, visually Papua New Guinea and tourism. And then if you want your real hardcore um, you know, skin scarring initiation ceremonies, you go to the C peak. Um, and every every province is for a different style of traveler, but it's certainly not a first-timer's destination, and just the the rawness of it and just how untouched and technically still primitive it is, is what the real draw card is.
SPEAKER_02:Fascinating. And I like this concept of um truly off the beaten path. I mean, I when I was living in Australia, I worked at Lonely Planet. Of course, that's part of the brand identity. And it is very difficult, especially in today's modern world, to be able to truly get off the beaten path, and so many paths are well worn. And I guess that's one of the things I'm keen to understand because as you've built out Crooked Compass, you know, you clearly have been able to create a competitive advantage and you've gotten traction in the marketplace, certainly in Australia and likely you're uh have international plans, which we'll get into. But how did you go about creating these kind of truly immersive itineraries? Everyone used immersive now, but I mean your those experiences uh uh would be life-changing, would be transformative to be able to go to a place like that and um experience these local tribes. And so how did you decide that to create these types of itineraries? And how do you actually go about uh is is it actually part of your uh expertise that you actually craft these itineraries yourself?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it is, and that that's my favorite part of my role. So when we started, we only started with six small group tours, and they were all based off things that I had personally done. Uh, one of the biggest things with what we do and why I believe it's been so successful is because we walk the walk. Um you can't you cannot sell this style of travel without having done it and having that first hand experience. You know, that the questions, the managing expectations ahead of a trip or ahead of anyone even committing to wanting to do a trip, it's it's not something that you can learn through a textbook. So it is very much first hand experience. And as you mentioned earlier, I have had the privilege of traveling to some incredible destinations and doing things that are very, very much outside the box, which are not necessarily always appropriate to bring into Crooked Compass. Um, but you know, the the basis of it is that there's always an angle looking for something that's an opportunity, and not everything is successful that that I uh attempt to build. But yes, it is it is me working with a combination of our local partners, working with tourism boards, uh, and also just my own self-exploration to come up with these concepts, have a look what other tour operators are doing, and try and find that gap that's being missed. That that's really the the basis of the of it from a starting point perspective.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, no, I appreciate that. And certainly what stands out to me is like the cultural integration with any of the destinations you're taking people to to. It's obviously it's part of the experience. And knowing uh adventure travel like I do, having worked at G Adventures and the Travel Corporation for many years and being at like the Adventure Travel and Trade Association conference, and you know, one of the big things that drives people to this style of travel, um, you know, within Maslow's hierarchy of needs, not to get uh um too much into psychology, but clearly that you know the the way it's framed at the top of the pyramid was self-actualization, which as I was actually preparing for a discussion, I was just refreshing my uh um my recollection of that and actually found out interestingly that Maslow's hierarchy of needs was never intended to be a pyramid, but actually was later shaped like that. It was so but we obviously take from that um what is sort of at the the apex and the apex being self-actualization, which one of the things that really appeals to people who take adventure travel, people like yourself and and myself and these types of trips, they're looking for life-changing experiences. They're looking to truly be impacted and come back different. And I guess um I would love to know if that is what you're seeing from guests that take your trips and and and also the type of people that you're seeing take your trips. Are they couples? Are they are they solo female travelers? Are they young people? Is it a mixture? I mean, what is the experience like on tour? And what is, I guess, that result that you're looking for once they actually get home after a crooked compass experience?
SPEAKER_00:The the result is exactly what you just said: that life shifting, we we use the words that literally on our homepage, perspective shifting. Uh that is that is the I guess the key branding for us. What we do is perspective shifting. We what we aim to deliver and uh what we want people to say when they're talking about who they traveled with and why, is that it was so much more than what I wanted, and not in terms of you know, bells and whistles and luxury or anything like that, but in terms of experience, deeper meaning, deeper connection, and in a big way storytelling. Uh the the types of people who do come on our tours, there's a there's a real combination. We do get a very heavy number of uh solo female travelers, especially post-pandemic, more so than before. Uh pre-2020, you could see a trend of solo female travelers increasing, but now it's just kind of like jumped into a whole nother league. We do also get a lot of couples. A lot of couples predominantly do private touring with us, um, or they get a group of couples and you know, book onto one of our small group tours together. The type of traveler, in terms of what do they look like, is generally 55 plus people who are really well traveled and they're looking for that stimulation, they have that curiosity, they're young at heart, not necessarily in age, but they understand the value of travel and they're prepared to pay for these exclusive, unique, unadulterated experiences versus jumping on a coach with 50 other people, you snap a photo and say that you've been somewhere. That they want that connection, and that to them, that is what the luxury is.
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SPEAKER_02:Yeah, and the other thing I wanted to ask you too, just in terms of uh appealing to that clientele, I totally get and um and fully appreciate that these are well-traveled individuals and they're looking to go further afield or destinations that are not uh offered by their tour operators and experiences for that matter that are they're not going to get elsewhere. Um when it comes to uh sustainability and this whole concept of responsible travel, how do you incorporate that into those experiences and how important is that to your guest? Um and I'll just I'll just add just uh you know I had James Thornton, the CEO of Intrepid, on our show, and I asked him a similar question because I'm always so keen to understand what are the motivations for travelers today and is sustainability becoming you know real and meaningful? And he kindly highlighted to me that he doesn't necessarily see sustainability as being the reason that someone travels with Intrepid the first time, but he definitely sees it having an impact on repeat guests, and I thought that was quite interesting. So yeah, how how are you approaching this and how do you factor it into the experiences?
SPEAKER_00:I would have to agree with James's comment there. I I don't believe that it is a reason that people would choose a travel, or it's not a reason that people would choose our travel brand. Uh I know, for example, with Intrepid, they are very vocal and very um, you know, focused on ensuring people know that they're B Corp certified and they do have a very strong um sustainability, they have sustainability teams within their company. For us, we look at sustainability a very different way. For us, it's not about things like carbon offsets and that sort of thing. It is about the local communities that we interact with and that we support. Sustainability to us is about ensuring that our money stays in those communities and provides opportunity. It is about ensuring that uh when we do bring guests, our impact and our footprint is light. And very much so that it is not just about our guests, it has to be a two-way street. We call it a cultural exchange where it's as much of a benefit for our guests but it is for the local communities as well, from an education and learning and you know, expanding the mind type experience. So we we look at sustainability very different, much more on a community level, as opposed to a bigger um broad scope trying to tick every box and plant trees and that sort of thing. Um, and the same thing based on the experience and how that is executed and how that is experienced by our guests, then it does become a determining factor when they do become a repeat client because they love that, they love that, you know, that feel-good that you get out of making a difference, and uh, and that's how we approach it.
SPEAKER_02:That's interesting. And then one of the things also that stood out to me, and you kind of highlighted you have the small group and scheduled departures, and then of course you have the uh custom itineraries that you can uh the tours by design. How significant is that as a your business? I know one of the things that certainly, you know, you have private tours listed, and I guess that was certainly one of the things we saw during the pandemic and after the pandemic was people taking up private tours. How have you seen kind of guess both sides of your business grow?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, so to I guess to compare is probably the the easiest way. So pre-pandemic, we were a very even split of small group tours and private touring. Post-pandemic, this the small group touring is still quite slow to recover. It's operating, but with much lower numbers. And the the way that people spend and the way that people have decided to travel post-pandemic has shifted, which also reflects itself in what we're seeing with our private tours. People are spending more, they're traveling longer, they're traveling slower. And um, because they are spending more, they have that budget to be able to invest in a private experience versus sharing the cost with a group tour.
SPEAKER_02:Very interesting. And let's keep on that theme of trends then, as we're in 2025, and clearly your business is uh growing. So I'm keen to know uh beyond just the types of products, but also the different markets. Um but tell us a little bit of some of the trends that you're paying attention to in 2025 as you grow crooked compass.
SPEAKER_00:Sure. So the number one trend for us is looking at what's next. What is that next destination, but trying to be there before everybody else does. But that's really where we have succeeded and what my focus is. So we we look at um what inquiry is out there, we do keep a very close eye on competitors. And you know, in the Australian market, we don't we don't have a lot of direct competitors. A lot of companies that are very similar to us are either UK-based or US-based. So watching those markets as well, because they generally move quicker than the Australian market. The international markets are usually at least six months ahead of where our market is. So it provides a good insight, and it's always been like that. So, in terms of trends, we're we're looking at, you know, last year, for example, we foresaw that the Balkan area, yeah, Albania, North Macedonia, um, Bosnia, those sorts of countries were going to be the next up and coming. So we got in early before anybody else had launched product in that region, and we're already seeing the results of that come through for 2025. Same for um, you know, we're looking more at North Africa. Morocco has been so strong post-pandemic that the Australian market has never really been interested. Most people haven't even heard of Tunisia. Um, and Algeria, which is, you know, right next door, one of the most incredible sites or countries that has sites of some of the best preserved Roman ruins in the world. And I was just there in November, and 230 Australians went there last year. And I was standing in this Roman ruin site with my group, and I just happened to quickly look at my emails because my phone vibrated. And whilst we're standing in this incredibly well-preserved Roman city, there was an email that came through from Pompeii saying that they're doing their bit for sustainable travel and capping their visitors at 20,000 per day. And here we are standing in a site that could rival that, and there's 230 Australians a year, and we are the only people there. So that is what we look for. We look for those opportunities where there is a draw card. It's not always culture and tribal, but things like history, archaeology, where it is so incredible, but it has just been so overlooked. Where can we go that is safe? We watch places that are emerging as in coming out of a conflict because we do know, and again, this comes back to how we play with the sustainability piece to help rebuild a destination when it's coming out of a crisis is a big part of sustainability. It is a big part about helping a destination get back on its feet, and it's a big part in being in a position where you can make a difference, you know, because of who our travels are travelers are and why they choose to travel. When we go to our database and we say, hey guys, this is what's coming up for next year, register your interest. We're not quite there yet. When it's something new and different, like using our jury again as an example, uh, people want to be the first. You know, there is a little bit of ego attached to these types of travelers. They they want the dinner party stories. Oh, I guess where I've just been. Oh, what do you mean you've never heard of it? Um, that there's that sort of element of it too. And we also take that into play with how can we deliver that when we're looking for new opportunities? What is going to tick those boxes? Because that's what our guests want.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I really find this fascinating. And I want to dive a little deeper into this because a good friend of mine just got back from a trip in uh it was he was in Albania and was raving about it and showing me the pictures. He but he was in Croatia and he was exploring the region and he was saying all the Americans are in Croatia and it's so expensive, all the Europeans are in Albania and it's so reasonable because they're hiking and these like you can stay at hotels for$40 a night. And he was showing me these pictures, and it was truly extraordinary. And now I've added Albania to my list. And um it wasn't before that. And obviously, this is where someone like yourself that is visiting these destinations and making these decisions, realizing I'm I sit on the board of a tour operator in Colombia, for example, and I've only recent travel to Colombia, and I'm a huge advocate for this is you know, there's certain stages in a country's development where it's safe, where there's enough um uh of an infrastructure in place to be able to uh start really opening up to tourism. And I see it playing a big role. They refer to themselves, the Impulse Travel Team, as change makers because their whole focus is actually trying to get money in the hands of local people and really changing people's reality, especially away from uh the narcotics that Columbia's been known for, um, to like producing rum and and uh um and chocolate and like and moving into tourism uh focused industries and having former GAM members become guides. And it's like I I find that aspect of travel really meaningful. So I guess what I wanted to ask you is that when you're looking at these destinations, especially ones that may have been previously defined by conflict or some sort of hardship in the media, um, when you mention places like Bosnia, for example, these are uh sometimes places that are not on people's radar. Um how do you decide that a destination is kind of ready for uh tourism? And how important do you think tourism is in shifting people's perceptions of a of a particular region? Because I'm uh the places you've traveled to, I'm sure you've had those moments where you're just like, the people are lovely. Like, you know, you've met the people and you've like you see the headlines on the news and then you see the experience actually on the ground, and it's completely different. So how I guess how do you uh approach that? I'm sure that's part of what inspires you to do what you do.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it absolutely is, and and that's a big part of me going before we start building that product and before we release it to anybody. You know, as I mentioned before, there's destinations that I that I travel to with the intent that we're going to look for opportunity here, and it just doesn't work for various reasons. But uh there is, from our perspective, we do quite an extreme and and thorough risk and crisis management. That that is kind of the basis before we start building a tour, especially if it's something that's coming out of the conflict, it needs to have had a decent amount of time for things to settle. Um, and there's a lot of boxes that we have to tick, especially from an insurance perspective, before we can just decide um to go in there. And I guess as well, being Australian, our government is incredibly conservative compared to some others. And whilst you see other international operators operating small group tours on places like mainland Yemen, South Sudan, I would love to offer that. We can't touch it, we don't get the insurance and it doesn't quite tick the boxes for our risk assessment. Yes, I've been and done the exercise, but we would not carry guests at this stage. So that there's a lot of background work to ensure the duty of care. The duty of care is number one. Uh, once we know that that can be managed, once we know if something clears up that we can get people out, um, once we have the right partners in place, then we move on to the fun part of developing the product. Um and and it sort of goes through this process that starts off with this very dry framework, and then it moves into the beautiful fun. Okay, who can we work with? Who's who gets our vision, who aligns with what it is that we want to deliver, and and we shift that way. But absolutely, as you say, you know, the the media do play a big part in um putting out barriers for a lot of people. Uh scare tactics, I'm not sure if that's the the right word, but this is the beauty of our style of travelers they see what's in the mainstream media, but they want to experience it themselves and make up their own mind. So, you know, when I when I mentioned earlier talking about Papua New Guinea, that it's not for everybody. A lot of our product is not for everybody, it's for a certain mindset style of traveler.
SPEAKER_02:Well, one of the things I'd be interested to know too is that, you know, I know I understand that people are putting their hands up and when they're coming to you to travel outside their comfort zone and explore places that are often overlooked by mainstream tourism. So when they are curious but still not convinced and they still are um feeling hesitant about traveling to an unconventional destination, uh, how do you manage that? And I guess I'm just I'm j I'm genuinely curious because I have found it myself what when someone would say to us, you really need to experience this, and you go, oh no, I've I and then you go and you're like all of a sudden, but sometimes it takes a bit of hand holding. You don't um and that sometimes comes from a a trusted friend, but in your case, obviously you're the trusted tour operator. So um what would you say to someone who is considering a trip with Crooked Compass now to Papua New Guinea? You you very clearly said it's not for everyone, and I think that's important to clarify. But yeah, how how do you um encourage in a positive way for people to kind of uh take that leap of faith and travel somewhere that they you know that is beyond their comfort zone?
SPEAKER_00:Aaron Powell There's really two two ways that we do it, and one is Managing expectations and being absolutely transparent. I would rather lose a sale than have the wrong person in a destination because that is just a complete disaster in itself. And uh the other way is encourage people to ask questions and get it out of them. What what is their concern? Is it something that they saw on social media or on the news? Is it something that, you know, we still get people talking about wars that were 30 years ago as if they were just finished yesterday? You know, that there's a lot of misconception or data that's kind of jumbled in people's minds with when it actually happened and what has happened since then. You know, you just mentioned Albania for yourself. You speak to so many people about Albania, and the reaction is, why would you go there? That is just a complete dump. It's all ruined. You go there now, and it is the next upcoming destination in Eastern Europe. And it is incredible. And at the moment, it's incredibly good value for money. And I literally had this conversation two days ago with a client who was who had concerns about Albania, and she's doing going hiking up in there in the mountains. And I said, those mountains haven't changed, they have been untouched. It's the city that you've got your little um, you know, your preconception about. Nothing's happened in those mountains. And so it's it's about being honest, it's about being very transparent. And for us, we will point out those worst-case scenario situations, and we will say, you know, if you want to go to Papua New Guinea, we had, you know, this many people this year, and literally 100% of them had a flight cancellation because of fuel shortages. So if you're gonna go, this is what will probably happen, and this is how you manage it. You choose, yes or no, we'll give you the information. So our role is to educate and to be transparent and provide the information for the person to then make their decision. We would never ever push somebody onto something who is hesitant because that's gonna lead to disaster. They have to want it.
SPEAKER_02:For sure. No, that's that's very clear, and I wanted to cover that because I find that the uh that there's so many people, especially older travelers that listen to our podcast that are sometimes hesitant to go to a particular destination for exactly what described, their perception or some of the history. But one of the things I'd love to know, given how much traveling you've done, um, is what else is on your list? And and what where else would you uh are you planning to go? And where else would you like to see uh open up to the world?
SPEAKER_00:Oh, there's so many places that I would love to see open up to the world. One of the ones that I've been watching for quite some time is Iraq. Uh, it's controversial. It is said to be incredibly beautiful. I've done all the surrounding countries. I haven't done that one. We've been waiting for, you know, a certain level to settle. We are almost there for me to be able to start doing the you know very early stages of our risk and crisis management process. And that is somewhere, you know, when I speak to the people who are in this sort of adventure space in the tourism um section, who do operate there or who have been there, it just it just seems so right for our portfolio and for our clientele with those sorts of areas that have sort of come in and out of conflict. There's a lot of our travelers, because of the demographic that we play in, who have been to these countries as backpackers and now they want to go back and see this transformation. Syria is another one, you know. We've just had the change of government last week. And from a tourism perspective, that's potentially quite positive, but there's still a lot of unknowns, and you know, it's it's gonna be a long time. We have product ready to go there, that is sitting in the wings, we just can't promote it yet. So there's a lot of things like that, more in that sort of Central Asia, Middle Eastern space. Um, and then it's the same with West Africa, Western Central Africa. Again, we've got product sitting in the wings that we've been tinkering with, but timing's just not right, or there's certain things going on in the ground that just need to subside before we can get ready to start. You know, usually when we bring in a destination like that, it does take two years for it to get into people's okay, yeah, we can go there now. These guys have been promoting it for a while. I can see that the founder's been there. I've seen their YouTube videos, I've seen this, I can ask my questions, and that there's a process. It's not, all right, guys, we're just gonna go and start selling Mali again in West Africa. Who's coming next week? It it doesn't work like that, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_02:And the other area, I know you offer Saudi Arabia, and um, so I was actually curious just to ask you about that, since Saudi Arabia is everywhere with their marketing and messaging at all the conferences, and and so um, I guess my question to you is you know, do you think uh having traveled there and operating trips there, that that is one of the big uh travel destinations that we're gonna see more and more travelers go to? Where do where do you see Saudi Arabia's role in Middle Eastern travel?
SPEAKER_00:Saudi Arabia is a very interesting one because it's very controversial. Uh yes, you're correct. I have been over there, and it is very different to the rest of the Middle East. As you have seen firsthand, they have so much money to splash around. They are sponsoring everything. And when they came into the Australian market, which was only two years ago, um, this is the tourism board we're talking about to promote the destination. It was very, oh my god, no one should support this. This is a regime, and it was very negatively taken. However, everybody's entitled to their own opinion, and there are these travelers who are fascinated. They can see that it is a country going through incredible transformation. And this is one thing that, you know, when you're working with this style of travel, one of the big things is change. You know, every country evolves, every country changes, and it doesn't happen fast. So a lot of people want to see a country in its current state before it transforms and progresses. And Saudi Arabia is sitting in that sort of tinkering, it's still got a lot of things and processes and policies and a system that a lot of people do not believe, and they'll use that as a reason not to support going to the country and you know, providing tourism dollars to the economy. Whereas other people can see, you know, there's a young king, he's shifting things, he's allowed women to work in roles like journalism and to get driver's licenses and things that weren't possible five years ago. And so they can see things as shifting and they want to see it before it shifts too much. So it's a real um black and white destination. You really don't speak to anyone that's sort of like, oh yeah, I kind of consider it. It's either I want to go or I would never support it. And the way that tourism operates over there is so different. You know, the rest of the Middle East is very authentic and it's very focused on culture and tradition. Saudi is like in a way, a Dubai. It's all man-made, it's all glitter, it's all a front, and similar to travel in North Korea, you only see what you're allowed to see. There is a bit of a veil. And uh some people love that because they've got the curiosity, oh, what do you reckon? You know, even when I was there, I said to our guide, um, I don't want to eat in this restaurant, I don't I don't want to eat where the other tourists are, I want to eat where you go with your friends. And he said it's not possible. So, you know, and then I'm like, oh, why isn't it possible? How can I go there?
SPEAKER_02:Exactly.
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SPEAKER_02:And now, back to the show. The other thing I wanted to ask you too, and and and then I want to talk a little bit about uh how your business is going to grow, uh, but I wanted just to ask one more about the destinations that you offer. So you you highlighted something there that I find um uh so important about travel. I never wanted to be one of those people that would say, oh, you should have experienced Thailand in this time, or like but the reality is like like or like New York in the 70s, like we used to play a bit of a game where you'd say, like, if you could live anywhere in the world at any time, what would that be? And um and it is kind of a fun game to take you on a bit of a history tour and like what the world was like at certain places. Uh but part of the reason I don't like the game, of course, is because the idea that like we only live in present times and you need to make the most of the time that we're in, like not. But if but to that exact question, um if you uh think of the destinations right now that you think are just like I say that with col with um Columbia. Like I think Columbia is at a perfect time to be able to go where it's affordable and there's enough um in place there to make an an amazing trip. What are those places that stand out to you that you are like that if if you were behind somebody as they're navigating your website or at a booth at a uh trade show, and you're just like, oh, you know, these are two or three places that you should really be considering going right now because over the next few years, like it will change. There will become you know, there will uh start to become issues with um uh over tourism or like so what would be some of the places that stand out to you that are just like, oh, this is the time to in 2025 or 2026. Here's a couple of defin destinations that you should really try to get to.
SPEAKER_00:Central Asia, the Silk Road, the five stands, that's absolutely one that has been quite slow to recover. They were very slow to reopen borders, which um has made people nervous as to why. And now that they're all reopened, you can just see this surge of people wanting to go. You know, from an Australian perspective, there's only one that now needs a visa. So it's never been so accessible, and that accessibility will naturally lead to volume. Um, so that that's one of them. Get in there now because 2025 will be busy, and then 2026, it's it's just you can see the explosion coming. The other one we've sort of alluded to is that Balkans area, Serbia, Montenegro, um, Albania, North Macedonia, even Bulgaria and Romania. They're destinations that we have been watching for quite some time, and you can just start to see that trajectory pick up. And so to get in there while it's still not young or green in its tourism stages, but the volume of passengers aren't there or travelers aren't there, just to have that space, just to have that um more, I guess, intimate experience with the destination instead of you know dodging between people following flags off cruise ships and those sorts of things, which haven't quite reached those regions yet.
SPEAKER_02:That's really helpful, and I appreciate that because that's actually a destination I need to get to, and I'm gonna make that part of my plans for 2025. So, on that topic, tell us some of the other plans that you have for Crooked Compass in 2025, whether it's expanding into new markets, adding other destinations. I know we've talked uh quite a bit about some of the places you offer, and clearly that's an um you continually evolving the product. But yeah, tell us about some of the other plans that you have for Crooked Compass.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. So product development is always at the forefront. We're always looking, researching, jumping on planes, looking for those new opportunities. That doesn't stop. It just shifts depending on what's going on in the world. Um but beyond that, you know, for us, we are in a perfect position now. We've recovered from the pandemic, we're strong, we're recruiting, our team's growing. Every couple of months we've got somebody new on board, and so we're we're in that prime position to now look beyond Australia. So for some time we have been preparing to launch into um the North American market. We're still not quite there yet, but we are getting close. Um, we want to do it well. It's a market that operates very differently from ours. However, I do know that there is an incredible appetite for our style of tours and that um, you know, Americans in terms of adventure travelers, they are looking for something new. They do want to be educated, they do want that stimulation. And whilst there are, you know, competitors in the space, there is a lot that we do differently. And the one part that we do understand about that North American market is where we sit from a competitor perspective. So we've got that part sorted. Now it's just how do how do we reach those people? That's our next step.
SPEAKER_02:Yeah, I'm very excited for Crooked Compass to launch in the US. And I had said to uh Lisa just before we started our conversation, because we actually have a number of colleagues in common, and one of them um is Global Journeys, and Global Journeys based uh actually not too far from you, they're a little further on the Sunshine Coast, and uh but uh near Brisbane and Australia, and they're a very successful OTA, and they do um they're already a great partner with Crooked Compass. And I, on the acceleration team side, because most of our listeners know I kind of divide my side myself between travel trends and and running an acceleration team and work with a number of travel companies to help them scale. And one of them I've been working with the last year is Global Journeys to set up their Toronto office and expand in the North America market. And I had said to Lisa that actually um I had spotted that you were actually one of their suppliers in Australia, and I was keen to know if we could start selling the product in North America, because I I really do think I know Canadians would love this product. Um Canadians are often similar to Australians in terms of being a slightly more intrepid travelers. Um, but Americans would absolutely benefit from this style of travel. So I'm very excited for you to make that happen in 2025, and our biggest market for this podcast is the US. So definitely uh I'd encourage everyone. I've I've registered for your newsletter and I'd encourage other people to do the same. Or obviously they could likely find uh these experiences on globaljourneys uh.com as well to be able to uh to access them and book them. Um but that's really exciting. And so yeah, tell us a little bit more about um what are your personal plans, because clearly you must travel half the time. So and and how much time are you spending outside of Australia exploring new destinations, on trip with your guests? What does that look like for you?
SPEAKER_00:We are just growing so much at the moment, which actually requires me to be here a little bit more to ensure that structure and training and um all those sorts of opportunities that I can now delegate to other people to jump on planes instead of me doing it all the time. Um, which is which is exciting. You know, you always want to be growing other people. It's not not just about yourself. But uh for me, I generally most of my travels are to do with product development. Um, but this year I am escorting a couple more tours, which I haven't had the uh opportunity to do as much as I I did um in my early years. I've got a son now, so school, school constricts me a little bit. Um, but we I am escorting our tour. We've got a tour going to Mongolia and Kazakhstan. I'm escorting one of our tours to the Mount Hagen Cultural Show in Papua New Guinea, and then there's yeah, a fair few product development trips. And that that's kind of my schedule. There'll be things that crop up that are not necessarily planned as they always happen. And uh ideally, I'd love, I'd love for the business to be in this prime position by this time next year where I can take our entire team to one of our destinations and do a little mini conference. And that that's that's the big golf.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, that would be amazing. I'm sure it will happen. I think the future is very bright. And so there's a couple last questions that I had for you, and then uh if you wouldn't mind, one of the things I'd like to ask you if that's right, Lisa, given that I was raised by a single mom and I'm I a strong advocate for female leaders, which uh hopefully is in going forward will be one of those things that's just leaders, male or female. But obviously, there is uh women's organizations for mentorship, and I think this is all very important. And so I just actually wanted to ask you, you know, given that you're uh a strong female leader leading this global travel brand, um, what advice you might give to someone else that is either considering a career in travel or not taking on an entrepreneurship role like you've done?
SPEAKER_00:I guess there's two things to really be mindful of when you're looking at joining this industry. One is you don't join the travel and tourism industry to become a millionaire. You join it for passion. And for anybody who has been successful in their own business, you will know that passion is what makes you succeed. It's what drives you and it what it's what makes things happen, and um, that is what makes you successful. So you you don't enter the travel industry because you think you're gonna get free trips. You enter the travel industry because you love the industry and you have a you don't know the industry at this point, but you love the idea of the industry, the lifestyle that it can bring, but you're prepared to work hard for it. It's very much a work hard, play hard industry. And I think that that's lost in a lot of uh the way that our industry is portrayed. People just see that everybody is traveling all the time, and yes, that is true to an extent for certain people in certain roles. It's not everybody. So it's about being transparent about what the different sectors of the industry look like. What is it that connects with you? Like what is your interest? If it's just I want to travel for free, well, sorry, that's you know, we're not really gonna end up with a successful career. If it's, oh, I love being creative, or I'm fascinated by this, or you know, I did a degree in archaeology and I'm really fascinated in destinations that are linked to, you know, ancient civilizations or or whatever it might be, there definitely is somewhere for you in this in this space. So it's it's about being honest and having conversations about what's possible and the realities of working in this industry. It's not a nine-to-five job, it is an around-the-clock job. Um, and you don't get paid for working around the clock. That that's just the nature of it. For someone who wants to go down the path of um the entrepreneurial ship and run something themselves and back themselves, the number one thing is that you have to have that confidence to back yourself. You need to believe in your skill set, you need to know that you know, there will be noise, there will be people that say to you, Oh, you can't do this, you're insane, why would you do this? Um, you need to back yourself more than 100% to know that failure is not an option. That's that's the biggest thing that I can say to anybody who wants to go down that path because it's tough. People don't like um, you know, this is well, that's probably the wrong words, but people don't like um seeing others thrive all the time. You know, there is a certain type of person who is set to just be an employee, and there is a certain type of person who is wired to be something more than that. And unfortunately, they don't always align. And tall poppy syndrome is a huge thing when you move into this entrepreneurial space. You know, people who you've worked with in the past or people, you know, there's there's always something, and you have to have a thick skin. Thick skin, backing yourself and following your heart and passion. They're my three three points of advice.
SPEAKER_02:Excellent advice and very inspiring. And I just want to share with our listeners too, because I became familiar with tall poppy um that expression when I was living in Australia, which is um, you know, as someone rises above, people try and cut them down. And um, so in different cultures, I mean that that exists, but it certainly is the case um in uh a lot of English language markets. Certainly in Australia you'll see it in Canada too, but it goes by different uh terms. But you're absolutely right, and I'm glad that you have persevered and overcome any of that, and that um you're continuing to play this uh important leadership role. So thank you for that advice. The other thing I wanted to ask you though is one of your best travel stories, given you've probably got so many. And but uh I would love if you wouldn't mind sharing a particularly uh poignant part of your travels or an interesting tale from one of your trips or experiences uh with our listeners.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, this is so hard to answer. There's so many different ways that I could I could go with this. Um, but I'm going to go down the controversial route of North Korea. Uh, North Korea, I know that it is a challenging destination, especially in the North American market. Um, however, the reason that I want to share this story is because it is just the perfect example of the media portraying something and the experience being even more than an opposite experience. So, North Korea, we all see the marching parades on the TV, we all see the missiles being paraded down the main street, we all hear about the dictatorship, and yes, that does all exist. We're not going to pretend that it doesn't. However, from a travel perspective, when you are there, it is incredibly controlled. You are not allowed to have free time on your own to walk around. You have to be with your guide and your minder, who is your um operational coordinator, is is the words that they use. But you hear that you can't talk to the locals, you can't do this, you're just observing. And that's not true. When you are there, the oh, it's just so incredible. You can't you can't even put it into words. You can talk to the locals, they just don't speak English, and they're incredibly shy because they're not used to seeing foreigners. You know, out of the the border is still closed there, but when I was there building our product, the the numbers, there were five and a half thousand people who went to North Korea a year, and 97% of them were Chinese from the Chinese market. So for those people to see Westerners, it is very, very extreme. And so there is this natural hesitancy, but there is also this curiosity. And when I was there, we went to um Mount Kungang National Park and went hiking. It was November, it was so, so beautiful, and it is not what anybody would ever ever imagine. It was like being in the Rockies, it was all these like granite and sandstone mountains, it had just started snowing, so there was snow on the tops. The water was so, so crystal clear and so pristine. There was no rubbish, literally nothing anywhere. And it was so incredibly beautiful. When I show people my photos from this region, they're going, that is so not what I had in my head about North Korea. And you know, then we went skiing. There's ski fields in North Korea, and just everything that you think you know was just so completely flipped. Yes, it is very controlled, but the experience you have, we went bar hopping. There's a microbrewery scene in Pyongyang in the capital city. We went bar hopping. Yeah, we're separated from the locals in the bar, but that's okay, they're still there. But just all these things that are just not what you thought. And it just really stands out for me as like this really unique and it is life-changing and it is mind-altering and it is perspective shifting, which is all the things that we want to deliver and all the things that I personally want to get out of travel. And it just is the most mind-boggling, confusing, strange country, but it is also so rewarding to have the privilege to be there. Because, you know, whilst I still I still don't understand how a country like that can function in this day and age, the more travelers that go in help shift that change. It helps educate the local people, and you can see, you can see the curiosity, you can see that they don't quite understand how you fit into all of this. And you know, we're talking about change earlier, particularly around Saudi Arabia. Um, North Korea has to change at some point, and tourism plays a part in that. It's very, very slow. Um, but maybe this is the reason that the border hasn't opened again yet. But yeah, in terms of a travel story, I mean, this isn't me just saying, Oh, we did this and this is what happened. Like it was an experience that had so many different elements that just shifts so much. And I talk about it all the time because it's just there's literally nothing else like it that you can compare it to.
SPEAKER_02:Oh, that's amazing. I'm really glad you shared that. And I traveled to South Korea before I lived in Australia. And when I was living and I went to the demilitarized zone, of course, it's eerie because they're blasting the loud music, and there's that, you know, two miles of um kind of pristine forest because no one's kind of uh for 50, 60 years has has um has been in that space. And there um uh when I was in uh uh working at Lonely Planet, Tony Wheeler had visited the three axes of evil countries uh shortly after that speech was given and went to North Korea. And I've always been intrigued by it, so it's very much uh high on my list. And you've actually further inspired me that that is definitely a place that I do need to uh to get to. So um, you know, thanks very much for sharing that story and thanks for sharing the journey that you've been on with Crooked Compass. I'm you know it's a pleasure to meet you, Lisa. I'm very excited for where you've gotten this business to. I'm I'm super excited for you to launch in North America, and uh you'll have our full support, that's for sure. But um, let's make sure any of our listeners, if they want to find out more about you, reach out to you, or connect with Crooked Compass, uh please let everyone know how best to do so.
SPEAKER_00:Yes, so if you are interested in having a look at what we offer, our website is absolutely the best place to go to, which is crooked-there's a hyphen in the middle there, compass.com. Otherwise, if you're just looking for a bit of inspiration and love to see what we're doing and where we're going, we are on all your major social channels, Facebook, uh, Instagram, predominantly LinkedIn as well, for those people who are more in that that sort of business space. And for anybody who would love to connect directly with me. Um I also am, of course, on LinkedIn and also do have um my own personal LinkedIn, which is my my name, Lisa Pagotto, with an underscore at the end. And uh yeah, you can certainly follow along my travels. And like many people do, feel free to throw questions while I'm traveling about anything that you may like to know. And I I'd be more than happy to help educate you on what we do, why we do, and how we do it.
SPEAKER_02:Well, that's amazing, Lisa. I'm definitely gonna have some more questions for you as I make my travel plans for next year, but I'll uh I'll reach out to you after this. But no, I'm super excited for you and for Crooked Compass with what's ahead. Thanks again for joining us, and I look forward to keeping in touch.
SPEAKER_00:Absolutely. Thank you so much, Dan. It's been a pleasure.
SPEAKER_02:Thanks so much for joining us on this latest episode of Travel Trends. I really hope you enjoyed the conversation today with Lisa Pagat, the founder and CEO of Crooked Compass. I am thoroughly enjoying this emerging Tour series, and I would definitely want to do more of this going into 2026. So feel free to reach out to us if you want to be featured on our podcast in 2026 or partner with us in some way. And I just wanted to say a special thanks again to Alex and the team at Tor Seta for sponsoring this series. You can find out more about their multi-day tour and group tour booking platform at TorSeta.com. That's T-O-R-S-E-T-A.com. And then next week we have one more episode for you. We have Will Cannes from Active England Tours to round out not only a global perspective, but also to bring someone in that is a real veteran in this space. And you can hear from his journey about his plans for Active England tours over the next five years as he plans a succession plan. So starting with Nabila, a young entrepreneur, then speaking to Lisa Pagat, as you heard from today. And Will, next week, I think we'll give everyone a good perspective of these multi-day tour operators that fly below the radar of some of the larger operators, but are really running meaningful businesses that are growing and scaling. So thanks again for joining this series. I really appreciate everyone's interest in this topic. And until next week, safe travels.
