Travel Trends with Dan Christian
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Travel Trends with Dan Christian
Leadership Lessons in Sustainability that Matter with Shannon Guihan
The rules of “green travel” have changed. We’re moving beyond feel-good labels to a world where travelers, advisors, and investors expect real proof, data, targets, and measurable benefits for the places we visit. To open our Sustainability Series, Shannon Guihan, Chief Sustainability Officer at The Travel Corporation, joins us to unpack what credible impact looks like in 2026 and how operators of any size can demonstrate it.
We trace an origin story from Newfoundland’s cod collapse to the surge of unplanned tourism that followed, illuminating why sustainability is really destination quality control. Shannon cuts through the sustainable vs. regenerative debate by grounding it in evidence: climate action plans, supplier standards, transparent reporting, and guest experiences that keep money in local communities. She also details The Travel Corporation's approach from aligning with the UN SDGs and creating internal carbon funds to supporting ecosystem and cultural restoration through the TreadRight Foundation.
We confront the price question head-on: sustainability isn’t altruism; it’s risk management, resilience, and competitive advantage. Shannon shares a clear starting framework for small inbound operators and practical guidance for advisors and travelers on what to look for—transparent data, time-bound goals, and verifiable outcomes. We end by exploring a major shift already underway: host communities asserting more control over visitor flows, seasonality, and shared value.
Thanks to Intrepid for sponsoring this series!
👉 Listen to Leadership Lessons in Sustainability that Matter Now
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So I would certainly start with what issue matters to my team because if they're not involved and don't support it, then it's almost a moot point and you need them to be engaged.
SPEAKER_03:Hello everyone, and welcome back to Travel Trends. This is your host, Dan Christian, and we're about to begin a very special three-part series focused on sustainability. And this is a series I've been really keen to bring together. We did an episode on sustainability way back in season three, and of course we're now on season six, and this is episode 15. But just to give everyone context because one of those guests is going to be joining us on today's episode, the opening episode of this series, and I'll explain why. But this topic couldn't have been more important for all of us in travel in 2026 and beyond. And I wanted to have this conversation now because for those of you who are listening to this series live, it is December of 2025. We're going into the holidays and people are reflecting on their travels from this year and making plans for next year. And I thought this was the ideal timing to have these conversations to make sure that we're empowering our listeners, our travelers, and also travel advisors to know which companies have real sustainability credentials and that travelers can make better and more informed decisions about the companies they choose to travel with. And so we're going to do that by bringing in three extraordinary industry leaders. You're going to hear from Shannon Gihan today, who's the chief sustainability officer at the Travel Corporation. Next week, you're going to hear from Jonathan Coleman, who's the co-CEO of the Untours Foundation. And then we're going to bring in Dr. Susanna Etti, who is the general manager of climate at Intrepid Travel. Now, very interestingly, one of the things I want to point out right at the onset is that the sponsor for our series is Intrepid Travel, which I was thrilled when they offered to sponsor this series since we always look for partners to cover the cost of production of our show and our team and to make sure we can continue to bring these conversations to life. And very kindly, Intrepid Travel stepped up on this particular topic. And it's really fascinating that they did because, of course, this is so core to the DNA of their business, their team, and the global trips they offer. And if you want to get more information about their work and the impact, you have to check out the Intrepidfoundation.com. But we're going to get into a lot more detail when we bring in Dr. Susanna Etti into this series. But today, I wanted to make sure that all of our listeners understand what sustainability means in 2026, why it matters more than ever, and how it's reshaping the trips we take and the companies we trust. It's no longer, as you heard Eric Blatchford say, who is featured this season as one of our captains of industry, a major executive investor, and one of the partners in the Adventure Travel and Trade Association, that it is table stakes to be sustainable in 2026, because that is the essential that travelers are looking for in any adventure travel company. And that is expanding across the industry. And we have seen that on our podcast in every conversation I've had with industry executives over the last almost three years, we've been doing this podcast, and our focus being travels come back at the end of the pandemic on what travel looked like and how it changed. And one of the things that continually comes up is that travelers are making more sustainable conscious decisions, whether it's looking at the impact that their travels are having or the companies specifically and the destinations who they know are under increasing pressure, whether from the climate change itself or overcrowding. So the question has really shifted away from do you have sustainability in your business to can you actually demonstrate real outcomes? And all of the leaders that you're going to hear from over the course of these conversations are true advocates for sustainability. I have the greatest respect for each of them. And I wanted to start with Shannon Gehan for exactly that reason. Her and I worked together in the same office for almost a decade. I had the privilege to be able to see up close Shannon's work with her team and across all the brands at the Travel Corporation. She would often come over to my office and we would have discussions about how we could drive impact across the business and be able to share advice with each other since we were both working across all of these brands. And it was always clear to me how truly passionate she is about sustainability and ensuring that these outcomes are real and meaningful. And on today's conversation, I had the privilege not only to sit down and catch up with Shannon, but also to understand more about her backstory, which I knew she was from Newfoundland, but as you'll hear in a moment, there's an interesting connection there to the industry in Newfoundland, what impacted her life, and the decision that she made to go into the arena of sustainability, both academically and professionally. So it's always an honor to interview someone that I really respect, admire, and know exceptionally well. And so I just want to go right into the conversation now because there's so much we want to cover. But I also just want to remind everyone that, of course, you can get clips and highlights from these conversations on our social channels, on Instagram, YouTube, and LinkedIn at Travel Trends Podcast. And we do send out a monthly newsletter that you can sign up for at Travel Trendspodcast.com. And these episodes go live every Wednesday. So make sure you're subscribed on the streaming platform of your choice to be notified when new episodes go live. But let's get right into this sustainability series and bring in Shannon Geehan, the chief sustainability officer for the Travel Corporation. Shannon, great to have you back on the show. Great to speak to you again. Thanks so much for joining us.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you for having me.
SPEAKER_03:Of course. You were part of one of our most popular episodes ever, as our listeners know. We did a special episode on sustainability. And here we are now doing a special series on sustainability. And I thought, who better than to kick off this series than Shannon Geehan, who I've known, had the privilege to know for many years at the Travel Corporation. I guess let's people heard from the introduction a bit about you, but I'd love for you to just introduce yourself and tell everyone a little about your role and what you're doing today, especially in Spain, because you're a Canadian in Spain. Tell us also how that came to be. Well she would know. And you've grown up a lot, even though like I think uh you certainly you're still very much uh you're still young and young at heart, and you've got uh two adorable young kids, and like I'm glad that you've made uh life for you, your husband, and your family in Spain. I think so. You still have that desire for travel, the passion for our industry, but you definitely have accomplished a lot. So I guess that that that's an important place to to start because if people listen to the episode, it was on season three, Green Horizons Navigating Sustainable Travel with Shannon, Christian and Zach. And uh it was interesting having Christian Mahler Hoist from uh Goodwings in Amsterdam part of that conversation, and Zach Demouth, who uh uh is based in New York and oversees hotels. And I think I mean Shannon clearly was the star of the conversation if you want to go back and listen to that episode. But it's the part that I found fascinating is just everyone has a different take on what sustainability is or you know that uh what responsible travel. And so you have always had a passion for this. As you said, you started as a guide and you actually used to do cycling, which I just recently experienced for the first time when I was in Patagonia. I did a cycling trip. I actually thought of you because I was like, man, I get it now. Like this is one of the best ways to travel. Like this is a total natural high you have at the end of every day, and you've been outdoors and you've been connected with other people. So uh, but tell us a little bit. I mean, that to me obviously also highlights the fact you're keen on sustainability. But what was, I guess, the moment where you realized that this is what you wanted to do with your life because it has been a continuous theme. Like, yes, travel and guide, but it's always been a passion for sustainability.
SPEAKER_00:I have questions about this Patagonia trip, and that sounds rad. Certainly. So, you know, I started guiding in Newfoundland not long after the cod moratorium. I mean a little bit after. And so for anyone who's not familiar with that, there was a a a stop, just a complete stoppage of the primary industry in Newfoundland, which which traditionally for many, many, many, many hundreds of years was the cod fisheries. Now, through overfishing and a collapse of the cod stops, the stocks the fisheries ended. And so what does a a place do that's rich in culture, really vibrant, gregarious people? What is what is it what does a place do when its primary resource generator or or income generator stops? Well, at the time there was a tourism was really developing, sort of uh alongside everybody becoming a little bit more um curious about the world around us, access becoming much more easy through flights, and you know, the the the not long after that was a real boom in low-cost airlines and low-cost carriers. Um, it was a very obvious solution to look at uh uh ostensibly a soft sector, travel and tourism. You're not you're not extracting any resources, you don't require a great deal of infrastructure, but you need personality, you need culture, you need stories. And so tourism, I I think at that time in Newfoundland, it just kind of happened. Next thing you know, I'm in a C kayak looking at you know minky whales, while there's a litany of of whale watching experiences and motorized crafts as the industry really shifted. And I just was really struck as a young person at the time to be like, wait a minute, what is happening? This is just and that's the key word, it was happening, it wasn't really planned. Um, people would argue with me, but as a community member, I didn't feel involved or planned and wasn't quite sure how the benefit was shifting around the province. And so for me, that started it. That was really fascinating to me. You could see how quickly it was growing. It was people from all over the world coming to learn in this heavily unregulated growth sector. Uh, the rest is history.
SPEAKER_03:That's fascinating to make that connection, actually. No, so I say this is interesting because I knew you're from Newfoundland. I knew you were into guiding and cycling specifically, but I didn't actually make the connection, which is so obvious now, and especially as you say it, for a province that um for the large part of its history, 400 years, relied on its cod fisheries. And I think for those people who are interested in a bit of uh English Canadian history, I think uh there was a quote that back way back in the 1500s about you could walk on water in Newfoundland because there was just so much cod. And there and and there was for 400 years until it was completely depleted and all of a sudden people couldn't fish anymore, which is strongly connected to this idea of sustainability and regeneration, because obviously everyone needed to find, and many Newfoundlanders have moved across Canada. They moved to the oil fields, interestingly enough. You obviously saw this change, you experienced it firsthand, and you took to the travel industry, but you specifically took to the sustainability side of travel. And that's one of the things I always admired about you, especially all those years that we worked together, because a lot of companies were, you know, trying to establish their credentials, but you've always had a legitimate and you know a true authenticity to you. And I think that you you've always meant well, and that's like you know, I think that's a testament to uh what you've accomplished and how respected you are in the industry. So like clearly there's a uh for you, there's a real passion in what you do. So let's let's let's let's tell everyone a bit about the roles that you'd like you you took on, because you started running TreadRite. So that was obviously part of the travel corporation. You came in to run TreadRite, but tell tell everyone a little bit what TreadRite is, and even if you wouldn't mind, Shannon, what led you to that? Because you were already in the space before you took that over.
SPEAKER_00:Certainly. Um, I mean, I guess there's a few steps, and I won't go into too much detail. I I hold a master's in tourism and environmental management. So it was pretty early on. I have a riveting thesis on the efficacy of voluntary codes of conduct for marine-based ecotourism that nobody will ever read.
SPEAKER_02:Okay, we're gonna put that in the notes in the show notes for afterwards. We'll uh we'll host a follow-up QA.
SPEAKER_00:Um and that, you know, from there I moved into consulting. I worked for her at the time of the panel curve forster PKF and did developments on or research for my now best friend, Rebecca Pickford, Ibex. Um, I worked for her on analyzing destinations, uh destination development, attractions development, uh, you know, the implementation of wind farms and Wolf Island. Um and I worked for Butterfield and Robinson for a while, guiding and pulling tours together. And that's where I got my first, thank you, Graham Lewis, job supporting the development of sustainable tourism policies and corporate policies to address sustainability. Um you know, I I I owned 50% of a consulting company that was really dedicated to destination development. Um and for me, I never really saw the difference between sustainable tourism and tourism. And it was always a bit of a an annoyance. I, you know, when I was at Bannekin, I tried really hard not to call myself a sustainable tourism development because I don't get that. That differentiator to me is is um short-sighted. Uh and the reality is if you if you don't take a look at you know, sustainability in travel and tourism is effectively in its crudest term, it's quality control. You know, a really great place to live is a great place to visit. So if you as a destination want to continue to be visited, then you need to take care of your environment and your community. And for me, if you can differentiate and call it sustainable or generative, I don't really care, actually. I actually think the fewer definitions we have the better, because this this argument of what ego has what definition is a waste of space, I think. But what impact are you bringing to a community through the tourism sector? It's just I guess that's sustainable, but it just makes sense to me.
SPEAKER_03:Well, that's one of the things I wanted to ask you, but I I think I'll I'll maybe frame it in a slightly different way because when I look at certain organizations, I'll just use the example of Impulse Travel, which is based in Colombia. I think many of our listeners know I just I sit on their board, but I for me it's a real passion to be involved in an organization that has the best interests of the people in mind and the community, and their whole focus is trying to get the money in the hands of the right people that can lift them up and change their reality from you know the the drug trade or people who've been in gangs and to give them an opportunity in tourism. And for me, that is an incredibly meaningful mission, and so I've been very committed to supporting impulse, which is why I reference them because I believe in their mission. And uh, my good friend Rodrigo, his title is Chief Impact Officer. He was the founder, but he's his whole thing is having impact. And for him, that title is actually quite meaningful. But you hear people with various titles, and you also hear people that are they're focusing on regenerative, or like so I like what you just said there, which is like whatever you want to call it, but just so we understand like the the wave, I guess, of terminology when we had sustainability and we had responsible travel and we have this concept of regenerative travel. What was the sequence of those and where are we at the moment? Is sustainability still at its essence the what we're trying to achieve? Is that the right terminology? But yeah, I'd just love for you to break it down for us.
SPEAKER_00:I flip-flop. I don't believe there is a right or wrong terminology. And I think that when people there are sort of groups out there that are really caught up on the terminology, sustainable isn't as powerful as regenerative, because regenerative is giving back. Well, it's all an evolution. Um you're either you're either taking or giving at some stage of a company's development or a destination's development. And so I frankly think you can call it whatever you want. Um at the minute, I would say we're somewhere between regenerative and sustainable, but also environmental social governance. And there's just a great deal of framework for listed businesses or large businesses. And look, this everything that I'm telling you now is different for a Canadian than it is for an American, than it is for a Brit, than it is for an Australian, right? Um, because our our structures are different and our understanding is different. But what matters, and this is where I think I'll go back to your point, is that proven measurable impact at the end of the day. So, what are you doing? How can you be certain it's positive for your community? Um, and how can a consumer stress test those claims?
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SPEAKER_03:And now, back to the show. The conversation I'm very keen to have with you today is where we find ourselves in 2026 with sustainability, the movement, and also most importantly, the impact it's having on consumers and the decisions they're making. One of the things that Zach mentioned in our conversation is that the hotels that achieve their lead status or their sustainability rating that they actually sell for higher multiples. And so there's actually a business commercial benefit to being a sustainable business. I think this is where you mentioned the connection between ESG and capital. And that the fact the fact is that there is much more of an interest from both consumers and investors for companies that are focusing on how they can limit the impact on the planet and have a greater uh benefit to reduce costs or attract customers. I think those are obviously two of the ways that it can really work for us. So where do you stand on what does sustainability look like in 2026?
SPEAKER_00:Um uh so okay. I think that a lot of there's a lot of swing between business models. So hoteliers, for an example, fixed asset, 100% their multiplier increases because their costs don't go down when they invest in things that have, you know, well, they're pretty easy to understand, energy efficiency, um, sort of future-proofing your structure, and then reducing your costs through aforementioned tasks. So fixed assets way above and beyond um, in terms of progress, the service-based economy. It's a little bit less, a little more nebulous the the relationship between um developing value within a business in a service-based economy than it is for uh fixed assets such as hotels. And then when you break down that service-based economy, are you looking at or even if you include consumer goods versus versus service-based? So the the business model, uh, the sector, all of these things matter, but a hundred percent, the the there's lots of look, McKinsey and KPMG all say it. So we that must be true, right? That the value is increased when you incorporate good governance, environmental credentials, um, and you're looking at your stakeholders, not just your shareholders, which is your entire community. There's no question. Um for consumers, it becomes a little bit unfortunately overcomplicated. A great way to say how overcomplicated it is is do it am I looking for a sustainable operator or a regenerative operator? Well, you shouldn't care as a consumer. Uh, and and that conversation shouldn't even enter your mind, frankly. Um do they produce impact reports? And are you able to transparently determine how much money is being invested, what the reduction in carbon is, what the investment is in local communities? If you're looking at a company the size of the travel corporation and they aren't reporting at that level, then I would be quite concerned. For smaller inbound operators, so if you're looking at somebody in Colombia and they're an inbound destination, they don't necessarily have to be at that level of sophistication at an impact report, but they have to have something that proves that they are generating impact. Um but again, a business such as the travel corporation with 18 brands should probably have they have more stricter requirements, and that's just the nature of business and scale. Um, but at the end of the day, the consumer should be able to read what, how, and how successful positive impact tactics strategies are for a tour operator or hotel.
SPEAKER_03:Well, let's let's break the, I guess the one thing we probably should do, and I was uh remiss in uh not doing this before, but actually for those people who are not familiar with the travel corporation and your role beyond the introduction and some of our listeners who are podcast that may have an understanding given my background. So tell everyone about the travel corporation group of brands, your role and the tread ride organization. But I know it's more than that because obviously it's um corporate responsibility as well.
SPEAKER_00:So the travel corporation is a group of brands currently held um by private equity, so private private owners. Um, and we are tour operators and river cruise operators. So what that means is we uh sell boutique luxury river cruises through Uniworld, um, and we sell ground tours, guided packages, often utilizing coach in addition to small group and river through Trafalgar. Uh, and we do the sort of 18 to 35-year-old market, uh, very, very group-oriented social travel again through Kentiki. And then in addition, we have some custom and fully independent travel brands through Adventure World or AAT Kings, which specializes in Australia. So we run the gamut of business types, and we previously held hotels, so I have experience in sustainability hotels as well. Um, my role as chief sustainability officer, so I oversee our uh the development and implementation of our sustainability strategy, which includes measurable sustainability goals, whether they are the reduction of carbon or the increase of community benefit. And then I have a team, uh, I'm no longer the head of TreadRight. That is, we have pushed Parissa Param into that role, and I'm delighted for that.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, yeah, she's fantastic.
SPEAKER_00:She's great. Yeah, my whole team has been elevated to take up um sort of new priorities as we shift from privately held to private equity held.
SPEAKER_03:As you pointed out, now being owned by private equity, I'm thrilled that the team and the investors are continuing to recognize the importance of sustainability because we both knew it was a big passion for Brett Tolman, who we both worked for for many years. Like he had the vision to bring TreadWright to life and to bring you into the business. And and obviously that's when we had the great uh pleasure to be able to work together and be in the same actually office space, which was a really special time from my, and I know it is for many colleagues when I speak to them. They're like, I just I loved that era when we had that great office space and we all came together as a team, and it was it really was a uh a special time. And and that's where you know I got to see you firsthand, you know, and this is like going back like 10 years, so like having seen you, and this is why, like to our listeners, like obviously I think the world of Shannon, and I uh I'm glad we're still friends and still stay in touch, but it just shows uh to me, anyway, good people know good people in the travel industry, and you stay connected to good people and and you continue to admire their work. And so this is why it's such a delight for me to have Shannon on the podcast back again and leading off this series. So I think that gives everyone a pretty good overview of the travel corporation, your role and how important I guess this is. The one thing I wanted to connect it to was the UNWTO. And uh, because it's one of the areas of uh the sustainability goals and sustainable development that I know Brett was particularly passionate about. So when we knew the direction that UN uh the United Nations uh tourism organization was focusing on, we would take those uh sustainable development goals and apply them. And this this is where this is uh the world that I'm much less familiar with, but it's a great deal of expertise on uh with what you've put together, like a 20-year plan. So when you are approaching an organization like the Child Corporation with 18 brands and trying to figure out where you can make an impact, because the thing that you've done very successfully is you've kind of gone from having a brand in Australia that supports turtles, which for me was like a okay, that's great. That like, you know, you they contribute to a local initiative and they, you know, and go and pick up garbage and do these things. I'm just like, yes, that's that's all nice, but it's like, but how are you making a real long-term impact? And this is where you actually have to put a framework together. So tell everyone about that framework because I've seen it, I've understood uh aspects of it, um, with how you actually look at a business and try and figure out how do you put a plan in place for a business like that at such scale?
SPEAKER_00:It's different with each business. And uh a corporation or a business's approach to setting sustainability goals and building a framework should be different because it it should be appropriate for their business model. And it's a process of evolution all the time. So the last time we built a sustainability strategy, 2019, we launched in 2020. And everybody will remember those were not great years in travel and tourism. But the travel corporation decided now that our you know resources were kind of stood down, we leaned into sustainability. So I'm really proud of that. And that was a really unique opportunity. And so we took the what it is, it's the the United Nations built the sustainable development goals or the global goals, and there are 17 goals that replace the Millennium Development Goals prior to that. And so basically, it's a framework of goals, targets, and tactics built for governments. Let's say zero poverty, for instance. It gives governments a set of tactics that they can start to reduce their um number of people living below the poverty line. It wasn't specifically built for corporations, but a great many of corporations took that framework, ourselves included, and we built sustainability goals around that framework so that we had uh confidence in the rigor that was used to develop those goals. There's lots of other tech techniques and tactics that work for different businesses. There's certifications. Certifications with the time we had 40 travel brands, lots of owned assets, then not owned assets. Certification was never going to work for us. And we looked at a great number of them. We were just too complex. And any certification that a complex business used usually just means you're you're leaving room for opportunity or room for impact on the table, right? Because it's just not built for a company like you. Um, and so we developed uh 11 sustainability goals that are measurable, so time-bound um with clear measures up until 2025. And we were very successful in that strategy. Um, and that included targets such as you know, reduction of food waste, reduction of energy. We were pretty asset-heavy business up until the um the sale. And we are in the process of updating those targets. And for the first half of next year, we'll we'll launch new sustainability targets out into the marketplace that are probably more divisionally focused because we're involving in our opportunity to be more specific to the brands, a little more sophisticated, which is should be true of any approach to sustainability. You should be able to get more um laser focused and complex with time.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Well, the one thing that's interesting just on this topic is that, you know, of the travel corporation, which is always very focused on profit and and um and obviously I'm sure the new owners are as well. And this is the the interesting thing that as sustainability became more important, uh, there was still a question of it's just it's a cost center, like we just think you have to do just enough to try and maintain the credentials with the public. And we certainly still see that uh with with certain travel companies, but I know it was you know not only a passion for Brett, so that's why I'm keen to see how, you know, with um uh new ownership, just how important this is. And one of the ones the questions I was keen to ask you as it relates to that is uh sustainability becoming part of like the PL of the business and you know uh a key part of decision making to prioritize sustainability uh for the long-term strategy of the business. But I'm just keen to know how I guess some of these projects get uh funded or prioritized based on the impact they'll have and the benefit they'll have to the bottom line.
SPEAKER_00:Love that question and really appreciate you asking because you know, sustainability is not altruism. And often uh questions can sort of veer on altruism, and uh this is just smart business going forward. And I think it's really important for the listeners to realize that I'm Canadian, I live in Spain, and our headquarters and sort of the heartbeat of the organization is in London. This is just important given the current sort of political landscape, if you will. And so that point you mentioned earlier, Dan, about multiples increasing or the value of a business being increased through strong sustainability and/or ESG performance is is not lost on Apollo, who's our Apollo private equity, who has purchased us. They have uh in-house, I want to say there's somewhere between 18 to 25 of their own sustainability experts that are focused on areas such as value chain and carbon reduction and energy transition. And the reason this is true is because despite what's happening in the political landscape, it's just better business. Uh there's it the numbers are there. Uh, there's just some differing of opinions, shall we say, and perhaps they're ill-informed opinions. Um, and you know, sustainability in some circles has become political. It's just good business. So um that's a bit of a tangent there. But moving forward, you know, in 2022, we launched a carbon fund. Um, now that's effectively an internal financial mechanism that enabled us to ring fence money that would go straight into decarbonization initiatives. It was really successful for the asset-heavy model that we were at the time. And a lot of money went into uh coaches that we own uh to shift to biofuel and hotels for energy efficiency techniques or investments. Going forward, we're changing that model slightly. And I have to be a little bit careful because we haven't thought we're just in our budgeting process and we haven't really made this announcement, but we're we're weaving it into the PL more steeply in a more meaningful capacity. I'm really excited about it, and it's it's exactly that. It's it's how what are the sort of ways that our potential investments gonna be measured that reflect CapEx or OpEx investments from an efficiency perspective or even a the intangible side of community good, because there is a great deal of recognition that in order to maintain sort of license to operate, be it social or regulatory, you need to do good uh for the communities that you're operating in. Um and so, you know, the I'm really uh happy to say that leadership takes this on board very seriously. Um I I might be somewhat relieved because I had my own fears, but yeah, it's it's it's really positive.
SPEAKER_03:Oh, that's awesome. Well, I'm thrilled for you, and obviously I'm I'm very happy for them and the whole organization that this is such a key part going forward. So let's let's talk about some of the initiatives because I think uh, and as we do, just give everyone a little bit of an overview of uh TreadRite from your vantage point. Because TreadRite from you know my background, obviously having an uh an organization like TreadRite that would work with different brands in the group and and partner on different projects, you know, it's really transformed under your leadership. So uh but give everyone just a bit of an understanding of what TreadRite actually is and what Treadrite does, and then uh some of the other projects you have on across the business, because some of them I'm familiar with, but I'm sure you've got a lot that are, you know, depending on what you can share as far as what still maybe needs to be announced, but uh some of the things you guys have planned for 2026.
SPEAKER_00:So I guess there's two streams. You know, I oversee sustainability full stop at the group. And then underneath that, we have the work that we do from an operational capacity. So what are our procurement policies? Uh, who do we favor in terms of accommodations with renewable energy versus those without? And then we also have our TreadWrite Foundation. So this is a not-for-profits foundation that all of the businesses within the group support financially, and then TreadRite itself is able to identify projects that are for the community benefit. They might be conservation or nature-based solution projects in Australia. We have a really successful partnership with the an organization called Rainforest Rescue, who's working to support the Daintry Rainforest there. Um, or it might be supporting jobs and employment with a local weaver called Marta in Umbria, who is bringing, well, she has successfully brought back one of the oldest weaving techniques. She's a tiny Spitfire Woman. She operates this giant loom. It's beautiful. She um has a couple of young women who are learning how to do this as well. So they really do span. Um, but they're they're projects that support the environment, either built or cultural or natural environment of a place that make the place unique and that are critical for a tourism and a community going forward.
SPEAKER_03:In terms of some of the projects then that are most important to the organization, like what are some of the big initiatives that are underway to be able to make this shift? Like what obviously carbon emissions being one of them, for example, given you operate coaches as um, so decarbonization or you know, reducing emissions broadly, what are some of the the major initiatives that you guys are focusing on?
SPEAKER_00:We're we're I mean, it's not gonna sound quite as uh exciting as when it's all complete and out in the marketplace, but our current priority are destination stewardship projects. So, what are the ways that we can take the monies we have ring fenced to support decarbonization, the green transition, and local communities? And how can we create really meaningful, impactful community good? Are we investing in microgrids? Are we looking at training facilities for underemployed area uh well areas with high employment? Yet uh high opportunities for the tourism sector. So, I mean, at the minute, the projects that we're working on for next year are conceptual and they will support those existing projects that we have in hand. A really great destination stewardship project is, for example, is the work we do with Visit Scotland. So we're working with them as their operational partner to operationalize through our trips their net zero ambitions.
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SPEAKER_03:And now back to the show. Shannon, I appreciate sharing some of those examples of where you guys are headed in 2026. And obviously, the one thing that always comes back to for me is consumer decision making. Because one of the things that and it's uh JLG that Zach uh who was on our last podcast, he was talking about the importance for business and investors, and we talked about that. But then we had a conversation with Christian as well from Goodwings, and he was very adamant that consumers are never going to change, they're not going to make the right decisions, you've got to put the whole focus on business. And it was a spirited discussion, and all perspectives are valid. But the one thing I'm always, I guess, very mindful of is when consumers actually do start making decisions based on truly what they think is sustainable. And at the Adventure Travel and Trade Association, I asked Eric Blatch for this, and his uh his view was it's table stakes. Like if your business is not a sustainable business, people are not even gonna, you're not even gonna enter the consideration set for most people who are in the adventure travel category. So it's just that's that was his view. And then you see companies like Booking.com that have like the green rating of different hotels. And so I'm genuinely curious to know what you're seeing from consumer behavior. So like you working with all these travel brands across the group and certain initiatives like the Make Travel Matter, which I think is a fantastic campaign with the idea of, and more than a campaign, like a you know, uh a brand ethos, that most of the brands, and I know it happened with Kentiki, that the more opportunities to make travel matter, people love it. They love that experience. You want to build that across, like every trip wants to have a make travel matter kind of uh experience or moment. So we're starting to see this with consumer behavior. And I've just, you know, here we are in 2026. If we trace the history back to the blue marble photo like more than 50 years ago, when uh the astronomers, the uh astronauts took a picture of the Earth from space, and everyone kind of realized, and it's you know, some people point to that as the beginning of the sustainability movement, that we kind of realized just how precious life on Earth is and how interconnected um um the the the climate and our world actually is and how precious. So, you know, that's 1972, and here we are in 2026 trying to figure out what is actually moving the needle with consumer decision making. I think we all know the world is pretty fragile, but what decisions are consumers actually making as it relates to travels?
SPEAKER_00:Your history lesson just got me thinking of the Brentlin report, which I think came out in the 60s. But one of the first sort of documents. Next we're gonna get into Maslov's hierarchy of needs.
SPEAKER_03:This place is sure, self-actualization. Let's do the pyramid. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00:Right? Um I actually worked for Eric for a hot minute, I believe. He was on the board or running Butterfill and Robinson while I was there. And I'll go to his point. Yeah. So I'll go to his point because I do and I don't disagree. So table stakes, yeah, agreed, but for various reasons based on various subsets. So table stakes in the adventure space versus table stakes where I'm effectively in the in the in the let's say larger mass market are different for different reasons, but but agreed. Um I think that in the mass market, I believe there's an expectation for being good corporate citizens in its in its very base definition and you know sustainability. But I do not believe people won't travel with you if you don't. And I just think that this depends on who is buying you, what their demographic is, and the the the large disparity between demographics. Customers, some customers just simply believe this is this is something we should be doing. And so I'm not sure that that customer is ever gonna change their buying decisions. I think that you know, I always look at everything and my team will laugh. Everything is a funnel. You know, at the at the top, you've got somebody that just wants to tick a box. You know, they do it, great, done. Then you've got that individual who wants to really get under the hood and appreciate what your methodology is. What do you do? Give me an impact report, maybe I'll scan it. Great. Then there's the person that really wants to get into it, and you know, at the bottom, I guess it's an upside down pyramid. I should be doing this. At the bottom is the individual, if they don't see proof of sustainability and genuine sustainability, they're gonna shred you from their basement very loudly on the internet. So I think that everybody has a say, and there's a lot of opinions over what's right and what's wrong, and what's a good approach to sustainability, which I find really fascinating because it's gonna be different for all business models. I think we have a lot of traveler sentiment surveys that such as the booking.com. Yes, I will pay more for XYZ. Uh the Cynic could say that's virtue signaling because we don't have a lot of traveler behavior surveys. All of this to say is that there's a great deal of people who will only travel with you if you have these credentials. Um, even more so, there's a great deal of the media that will only speak about you if you have these decisions. And then I think there's a real mushy middle of individuals who are just expecting it. Um those are different motivators, but it all leaves us to the same point of aforementioned table state.
SPEAKER_03:All indications appear to be the case that consumers generally are more uh conscious about sustainability, but it obviously it depends how it plays out. But you're you mentioned an interesting point too there. Well, you mentioned many, but one of the things you just mentioned on that topic was when people don't necessarily have the means to travel, and so it's very difficult to justify spending more to choose a sustainable option. And this has part of been the the the challenge of trying to quantify the benefit is that if you how many people are willing to pay more. I think most people, if it was the same price and they knew that one was doing better for the environment, they'll choose that option. But if the cost is higher, then all of a sudden it becomes a uh a serious consideration. People are not paying for carbon offsets as an example. You could justify that cost, but unless it's either built-in or the airlines doing it, consumers are not it's clear that consumers are not choosing to do that over and above. We've been doing this for 20 plus years, and it's very clear that consumers are not. Some organizations are, but people just don't choose to pay extra to um but I'm very curious to know if if you see a difference with luxury. I guess that's uh what came to mind as you said that, especially when you deal with like Uniworld, you know, high-end river cruises. Do you see any difference upmarket in terms of people's desire for sustainability, or do you think it's pretty much consistent from the mid-range to luxury with whether or not people actually will embrace more sustainable travel options?
SPEAKER_00:I mean, I think there's two points that you make there that that are worth taking a look at. So the first is the assertion that perhaps sustainable tourism is more expensive than options that wouldn't be. That's not always true. So if you take sort of the competitive set for Trafalgar and you do a comparison of resources put in place in sustainability and cost, you're not gonna find in all cases that Trafalgar is more important, uh more expensive, but you are gonna find that Trafalgar's put a great deal of resources into resiliency. You know, and it's this disconnect between risk mitigation and resiliency and sustainability, uh being a nice to have rather than be a you and a and a have to have. So I think that that's really important to talk about. I think that if you had asked me previous pre, let's just say pre-inauguration, um, this question, I would have had a different answer, unfortunately. Because the the the rapid polarization of issues surrounding sustainability mean that it's less about luxury versus non-luxury, and it's shifting towards more granular elements of your market.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah. Well, I've heard people refer to like that diversity is the new luxury and that the you know certain, you know, you look at brands, just talk about competitive set, brands like G Adventures, you know, with Nat Geo, uh, which has been an incredibly successful partnership for them. So there definitely seems to be an interest as well in the luxury category. Obviously, we don't know if it's greater or not than um, but the reality is 2026 and beyond, this isn't a very important topic, which is why we're having the conversation. And one of the things I wanted to make sure we covered today, Shannon, on this important topic, given that we've got many listeners around the world who run tour operators or even travel agencies for that matter. So I've kind of got two other really important questions that I wanted to ask you. But one as it relates to all these tour operators that don't have access to having someone uh like yourself in a capacity in their organization, but can learn so much from you, if they're looking at their business today, trying to figure out how they do the right thing and become more sustainable, and like what is the either framework or the approach? What would be sort of the two or three first steps that you'd recommend to them that like if you were functioning as a external consultant looking at these different businesses? But uh, what would be some of the things that you would encourage them to consider about their business to be able to get to get on the journey and to be able to do it the right way? Is it building out their policy, first of all? Is it sitting down amongst their team and actually mapping out like what is their core values as it relates to sustainability? Like take us through a few steps on the journey so everyone uh listening to this can start looking at their business again and trying to figure out how they become more sustainable going forward.
SPEAKER_00:It's a really great question. And as you know, there's no um sort of model for our sector because again, it's so different and varied, and the challenges that face each tour operator are gonna be different based on where they are, who their market is, et cetera, et cetera. Um that's not to sort of circumvent the question, it's just to say that it's the response will be different based on each company, but the the key is not to overcomplicate. So while we have resources and a very complex reporting system uh and team, we have also uh complex obligations. So if I was talking to a small-scale inbound operator almost anywhere in the world, I would say, what is the issue that plagues your destination and community? And then what can you do right away to make some change? So is it water resources and there's some opportunities you can do to reduce your impact through desalination or education of your communities on water resources? I say this is I live in Catalonia, and water is obviously an issue. Is it um overcrowding and there's ways that you can start shifting your market to shoulder seasons, off seasons? Like it it depends on what the issue is, but it's really important not to get caught up in the definition, uh, in the multitude of structures and or certifications, those certifications for smaller operators can be a useful tool uh for the company I work for, unlikely. That doesn't mean that they don't have a place. So I would certainly start with what issue matters to my team, because if they're not involved and don't support it, then it's almost a moot point, and you need them to be engaged. And I would build on that, you know? How do you start reporting? How do you engage your supply chain? Um, but start with what issues matter to your place, how to make it better.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, I think that's a perfect starting point. And I've that that you know, when I think about certain organizations, it's as you said, that kind of hit me that that that I've obviously the first step is looking at what's going to be most meaningful and impactful to them based on where they're located and where their travelers are. And so along the same lines for the travel agents that are listening to this, and they're the ones that are trying to weigh up various tour operators for their clients, or I mean, the same question really applies to consumers that might be listening to this that are trying to decide who they should travel with based on their sustainability credentials. What is your, I guess, measuring stick, or how do you how do you evaluate as a consumer, uh, when you're looking at traveling with a specific company, how do you make sure that you're actually making the right decision, either as a travel agent booking on your client's behalf, or a consumer looking at a business to try and figure out if they're not if this is a company that you know meets your your values when it comes to sustainability?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. I mean, the first the first place is are they talking about it? And are they talking about it in a meaningful capacity, not just it's fairly easy, I think, in 2026. Most consumers are sophisticated enough to be able to spot real greenwash or just the platform. And I think that that's that's really important. Are they talking about it? Do they have if they're if they're bigger operators as yourselves, do they have impact reports? Are they actually reporting on progress? That's that's a huge win if you're looking at any major hotel group, any tour operator of our scale, they really should have a sustainability and impact report, a climate, um a climate action plan. Um, if you're looking at community inbound operators, for example, who are who are quite small and you know it, have they identified an issue in their community that that just makes sense to you for them to be supporting and are they supporting it? You know, one thing that I do that's even beyond the travel trade distribution network is is when we are traveling with our family, we identify an issue that's plaguing that destination and find a way to support it, deforestation in the dolomites. Does your hotel and or tour operator recognize that issue and make it easy for you to support the community that you're benefiting from through traveling? Um, it doesn't have to be overly complex and it should be crystal clear. You shouldn't have to dig for it.
SPEAKER_03:So what's really interesting there, Shannon, that you highlight is the fact that are they talking about it? And I think that's that's where it can, you know, it can be difficult to customers because you and your colleagues can uh smell bullshit right away. That, you know, and I I do hear people in the industry saying, oh yeah, that's like you know, it's very superfluous. Or and that's what gets very difficult from uh for a customer to understand. But I think the fact that if uh both businesses and consumers are trying to move in the right direction and consumers are becoming more savvy, and clearly they are, yeah, the the part that I'd like to know from your perspective as we look forward to the next like three to five years, like what keeps you optimistic about this space? Because you know, having read like the Weathermakers more than 25 years ago, or even um An Inconvenient Truth when that came out, we all thought and you you mentioned about the geopolitical changes, not that we have to get into politics, but it is important because it's kind of a shift in in voter sentiment about sustainability. And to bring it like right up to you know exactly where we stand, you've got people like Elon Musk talking about the fact that you know this is not a crisis in the next five years, it's maybe a crisis in the next 50 years, and the timeline is more like you know, 500 years. Um so it's very difficult for consumers to figure out, you know, should they be driving um should they be driving an electric car like with mandates for those and all of a sudden? It seems like there's constantly shifting goalposts. And so I think it's it can be difficult not to get disillusioned. So I'm you know, credit to you for continuing to to fight the good fight and seeing how far it's come. What keeps you hopeful and optimistic? I guess is really what I'd also like to understand. And what should people take away from that to think about their travel behavior, their businesses, to despite everything else they're seeing in the media, um, remain optimistic about travel and sustainability?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. Look, I think that sustainability has become a political pawn, uh, and that we were hyper-focused on it before we had to think about defense, which is just absurd in 2025 being into 2026. So you have to think about it contextually, you can't look at these things in silos. Um, I think what keeps me optimistic is something I never thought this sort of university Shannon would say is definitely the markets. I read Bloomberg Green, and Bloomberg Green gets me excited because they are tracking what is happening with spend. And if you can take a look at the markets separate to the political issue, and then you can see the way in which they're correlated, you'll just see what's upon, what what's not upon. Regulation is tightening down with respect to sustainability and ESG. Why are they doing that? Because they know that they need to. Regulations is something that looks positive to me, despite the burden that they certainly can bring on a corporation. It's positive. So the world, irrespective of political beliefs, is shifting because the money is leaning towards electrification, decarbonization. It's happening whether you want it to or not, is where I'm going. And so, you know, for the rest of the tourism, well, for the service-based economy, one of the largest economy uh sectors in the world, the tourism economy, not to follow suit, this doesn't make any sense, does it?
SPEAKER_03:Shannon, I've been so enjoying this conversation. There's a couple last things I wanted to ask you. One, I just wanted to get your take on where the industry is headed. So, and obviously you remain optimistic for all the right reasons, but take us through what you think the next few years of sustainability. What are the big themes that we should be paying attention to?
SPEAKER_00:Sure. I think that often when we have these conversations, we think about market demand, market sentiment, you know, value, all topics that we've spoken about, but what we don't speak about is the host community and what they want. And I think that the next couple of years is really going to mark the the revolution, I suppose, of destinations that they have a lot of power. And I think that that's critical because a lot of destinations want change in their communities. They want to be able to understand the value of tourism that is bringing to their backyards and they want to have a say in the way in which tourism is developed and or you know shared amongst their community and or spread. It's it's hitting home, literally. If you take a look at what's happening for communities and their real estate stock and how tourism and intersects with that through short-term rentals, destinations are gonna realize their power. So it makes frankly a lot of the other points we make moot. Because if you can't go to a destination that wants you there, that's a that's a very different scenario.
SPEAKER_03:For sure. And then the other thing I wanted to get your take on, you mentioned Bloomberg Green. That was a resource I was not familiar with until you mentioned it. But clearly you, you know, you're stay on the the leading edge of all of these uh trends and developments. So where for our listeners that are you know listening to this conversation and trying to figure out how they can become uh more familiar with sustainable practices and what are the most trustworthy because this is one of the things that comes up for me in conversations too. Like there's different organizations and depending on their mandates and is it best aligned with your company and your goals? And you just and you also start the conversation with highlighting the fact that you know there wasn't quite something out there that fit the uh the travel corporation quite neatly in terms of being able to be certified by a particular body. So when it comes to people just actually just wanting to do the right thing and reading up, where would you direct them? What are the resources you pay attention to to um to see what else is happening in the industry and keep up to speed?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, a great resource is Travelist, actually. Travelist is uh based out of the UK and it's run um it's it's run by a really clever group of individuals, and they work alongside governments and regulators to identify what's happening in the regulatory space, but they also have a really savvy list that's going to be updated next year, Q1 2026, of what certifications meet rigorous criteria and are aligned with a great deal of regulations out there in the space. So travel list also enables all of the online travel online tour operators, online travel associations, of course, uh, to have a shared metric of reporting carbon uh as it relates to flight sold. So they're uh a great voice, uh perhaps the only voice in the sector that brings together the travel train distribution network to be you whether you're an OTA or a short-term rental organization or a tour operator. Uh and so they have a lot of powerful resources for somebody who wants to know a little bit more. Um, a lot of the other organizations tend to be internally focused, uh, I would say for the travel sector. So travelists keep an eye out on on what it is they're doing. And yeah, Bloomberg Green is just, you know, is just a nice tool for me to look outside of our space, frankly, because when I'm looking for inspiration, it's rarely within our sector, unfortunately.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, no, that's a really good point. And it I know whenever our listeners that have just met you will be keen to continue to follow your journey. I know you're on LinkedIn, and obviously you've got your you know important high-profile corporate role. So you're at a lot of conferences, which I'm always thrilled when I see you speaking at a conference. You've also won some awards that I mentioned in the um uh the introduction. So if people want to follow your journey, Shannon, they've been aspire for our conversation. What would be the best way for people to connect with you or to reach out if they're looked to uh keen to collaborate in some capacity?
SPEAKER_00:I'm gonna come back here again so you can just pop my tires. It's great.
SPEAKER_02:All true, all true.
SPEAKER_00:I think LinkedIn is the best place. I don't use social media. Um, but yeah, certainly, certainly LinkedIn. I'd be happy to chat with anybody or or direct individual tour operators to resources that they have or try and answer any questions that I can. Um I just joined a board uh uh that I'm really excited about called Untours, the Untours Foundation and the and the Reset Tourism Fund. That is somebody you should have Jonathan on your podcast.
SPEAKER_03:Yeah, Jonathan's so Jonathan was on, he wasn't on a standalone episode, but he was part of our ATTA event spotlight from uh from Panama last year, and he was fantastic. And I, to your point, I uh had a friend Richard Edwards who worked at Untours, but I still didn't fully appreciate their they were the first B Corp, and they also, you know, just having you know the owner had no interest in profit and gave money back to all the travelers that travel with them the first year. And like they it it is a pure mission for Untours. So it's great you're on their board. That that makes total sense. So I'm I I did see that, so congratulations, a thrill for you.
SPEAKER_00:But it's their foundation because their their business stories are really interesting, but their foundation, the untourance foundation, and the way in which they're catalyzing climate adaptation and mitigation finance to the the supply chain, that's where it's at for me, because somebody's got to pay for this transition. And um, yeah, just as an aside.
SPEAKER_03:Well, you have just inspired me and our listeners because we'll we'll make sure that Jonathan Coleman from Untours is going to be part of uh this sustainability series. I'm gonna do that because you suggested it and I trust your opinion. So uh everyone listening to this, you can look forward to hearing from Jonathan and learning more about Untours. All thanks to Shannon. Um, but on that note, Shannon, I just wanted to say thank you so much. I'm you know I'm incredibly inspired by what you do. I have been for years, and I just I I I love the fact that you've been able to continue to uh lead, innovate, and really uh put this at the boardroom table and make this an important part of the conversation. So full credit to you. Um thanks for everything you do. Thanks for making the time for being a part of this, and please come back to Canada sometime soon. I know you're loving Europe, but um we'd love to have you back here because obviously you're a great ambassador.
SPEAKER_00:Thank you, Dan. I really appreciate it. It's always a treat.
SPEAKER_03:Thanks so much for joining us on our first episode of this sustainability series featuring Shannon Gehan, the chief sustainability officer over at the Travel Corporation. I really enjoyed my catch-up with Shannon, and one of the things you just heard that was inspired from this discussion is that we actually chose our next guest based on Shannon's recommendation. Jonathan Coleman is the co-CEO of the Untours Foundation. I had interviewed him on a Adventure Travel and Trade Association podcast from the Adventure Travel World Summit in Panama last year. So I got to have a better understanding of Untours and the Foundation. But it was Shannon that reminded me of Jonathan and the importance of Untours and the work that they have done with their foundation that has had such an incredible impact on the industry. And so I recorded with Jonathan right after today's recording that you heard with Shannon. And we're gonna bring that to you next Wednesday. So make sure you're subscribed on the streaming platform of your choice to be notified when new episodes go live. And this series was brought to us in partnership with our friends over at Intrepid Travel. And very interestingly, we're also going to speak to Dr. Susanna Etti, who is the general manager of sustainability at Intrepid, and she'll be part of our third and final episode on this topic. I do encourage you to jump into the discussion, whether it be on our social channels or sending me an email, Dan at Travel Trendspodcast.com. I'm very keen to get your feedback. I'm also very keen to continue these conversations. I specifically decided to launch this series during season six around the holidays, as we all have that wonderful feeling of giving and being very optimistic about the new year. And I thought, what better way to do that than to have conversations about sustainability and how we want to travel in 2026? So I hope you really enjoy this series. Thanks again for joining us. And until next week, safe travels.
