Episode 16: Navigating Reputation Management And Building Your Credibility.

In this engaging conversation, Jon McLeod shares insights on reputation management, the importance of treating people well, and the nuances of building a strong personal and professional reputation. He discusses the challenges of navigating career paths, the impact of generational differences on work ethic, and the significance of learning from mistakes. The dialogue emphasises the value of self-awareness, effective communication, and the necessity of seeking feedback in both personal and professional contexts. Jon also provides practical advice for managing crises and the art of delivering sincere apologies, ultimately encouraging listeners to enjoy their work and maintain a positive outlook.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• Treat everyone well, not for transactional benefit.
• Reputation is contingent on actions aligning with words.
• You can't talk your way out of a bad reputation.
• Take care of your reputation like an organ of the body.
• Don't rush to action in a crisis; reflective pause is key.
• A well-handled failure can boost your credibility.
• 80% of success is showing up; attend optional events.
• Seek feedback, even though it's difficult.
• Be honest about your mistakes and learn from them.
• Build your circle of support as you progress in your career.

SOUND BITES

"Be honest about your mistakes."
"80% of success is showing up."
"Have a good time all the time."

RESOURCES

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to reputation management
• 2:09 Understanding reputation management
• 6:15 The role of leadership in reputation management
• 10:57 Personal reputation management
• 12:41 Generational differences on the work ethic
• 17:53 Recovering from mistakes
• 19:56 The impact of well handled mistakes
• 24:48 Quick Fire Career Moves
• 26:33 Closing thoughts

Transcript

Caroline Esterson (00:00)
Well, hello again. I'm Caroline Esterson, your host. And today, sitting in the hot seat with me is Jon McLeod.

Jon is a partner at DRD Communications. He's advised everyone from pop stars to politicians, and he spends his life helping leaders build and protect their reputations.

But here's the thing, reputation management isn't just for CEOs or Prime Ministers. It's for you too, because in your career, your reputation walks into every room often before you do. So today we're unpacking how reputations are built, how they get wrecked and how you can recover when things go wrong.

Caroline Esterson (01:01)
Well, Jon, welcome to this wonderful episode of Little Moves Bigs Careers. Thank you so much for joining us.

Jon McLeod (01:07)
It's a pleasure to be here.

Caroline Esterson (01:08)
got a very important question to start off with, Jon. And this is important to me because I can remember feeling a little bit terrified when I first met You have advised George Michael, you've untangled banking scandals, and now you deal with regulators and reputation. How do you introduce yourself at parties so people aren't actually terrified of you?

Jon McLeod (01:30)
There's absolutely nothing to be afraid of.

Caroline Esterson (01:31)
You

Jon McLeod (01:32)
I'd say that all lobbying is potentially in the public interest because it's an act of advocacy. So our business is to clarify and communicate issues. And it doesn't really matter whether it's towards a regulator or who may have complex powers.

or to a local newspaper journalist, you must treat every person equally and take them seriously because they are playing a part in the resolution of the issues that may be at stake for a client or for a community or for an individual. And so long as people behave themselves that can be strongly in the public interest.

Caroline Esterson (02:13)
one of the reasons I really wanted Jon to come and talk to us today is because he deals with reputation management a lot. And what you've just said, Jon, is everybody plays their part. Everybody, everybody is important and they need to behave themselves. And I think sometimes as we develop our careers, it's easy to... forget people are around us and that we are kind of bumping along and connecting with people and it is so important to recognise that anybody can help us, anybody can work against us and just be nice. I think just be nice where you can.

Jon McLeod (02:49)
Yes, you sound a bit like Marcus Aurelius with that observation and we'll come back to him. I think the key thing is treat everyone well, not because you think there's some sort of transactional benefit.

In fact, the critical thing to have in mind is a complete disregard for any benefit that you might subsequently derive. So just treat people well for the sake of it.

And then, you know, something might come back around the mountain. I would say that's actually not the key to absolute success because some people are very successful and will happily clamber over the bodies to get to where they want to be.

You've also got to go to... Well, aren't they happy? You've got to go to bed at night as well. So it just depends how you want to live your life really. But I think treating people well before you need to turn to them for assistance is a good thing to do. It just generally makes life a little bit more congenial.

Caroline Esterson (03:53)
I think in all the, we've had this conversation before, but in all the interviews that I did for the book, that was a theme that came through with everybody. You just don't know, just be good to it makes you feel good, regardless of whether you're going to get anything back in return.

Jon McLeod (04:11)
Yes, and also the other observation to bear in mind which is from Balthazar Gracián in the art of prudence. was a 16th century Spanish monk. He also says, don't be a setting sun. In other words, don't hang around and tell people are no longer going to turn to you. So I think there's a component of of how you move up in your career, but also how to hold yourself gracefully and also to be ⁓ prepared to do the next thing. So understand the quality and value of progression because it'll turn out to be a good thing in the long run. there are a number of sides to
that career cadence, which I think is reflected in your whole little moves, big careers idea, which is these movements which appear quite small, can have quite a long term determining effect on just how well you feel and how much you enjoy working. I my view is that the purpose of work should be to enjoy working. I mean, obviously you've got to eat, but once you've sorted that bit out,

Caroline Esterson (05:26)
Absolutely.

Jon McLeod (05:33)
Enjoy it, enjoy what you're doing.

Caroline Esterson (05:35)
Yeah, and it is just finding the way through. So one of things that I really want to talk to you about today is reputation. So what do you think is some of the things that people misunderstand about how reputations are built?

Jon McLeod (05:52)
There are two principal areas that perception of what works reputation-wise. The first one is it's often considered that you can build so much superstructure around an individual, for example, a politician or a business leader or the head of a charity that will just do its work. And actually it's entirely insufficient. The reputation is
totally contingent on the actions that the person takes. So, mean, it's kind of University of the Bleeding obvious, but if your words don't align with your actions, you're just not going to get anywhere. And I think that's quite often what happens
both politically and in business in particular, where, I mean, it goes back to sort of Google's do no evil, which was their originating mantra, which I imagine they've probably dropped ⁓ now. Sorry, I'm completely damaging your search engine optimization by saying that, but we'll press on.

The sense that you can just say something and then that creates a sort of firmity of state is really for the birds. And then the other thing is that people tend to disregard their peril is the fact that they can talk their way out of bad reputational situation and inevitably that makes things worse. Now

I don't even know what the names of the presenters of MasterChef are or were, but it just seems to be a news story for month after month after month. And I've seen various interventions where whichever person it is has decided that they really need to tell the world just how good they are. And it just doesn't help. So I think we've seen it with Michelle. We saw it with Michelle Moan. We've seen it with Prince Andrew.

Jon McLeod (07:46)
If only people could really understand things, then I could get my message across, then it'll all be fine. And you can't talk your way out of a bad reputation, I would say, is the nub of it.

Caroline Esterson (07:58)
Yeah, and I think it's for me those examples are from the outside. It seems like a classic where ego's got in the way. You know, I just need people to understand me and you know, me being the center where actually in that situation when when there has been reputational damage, it's in a way it's not about you. It is about what's outside and trying to understand how people are perceiving the situation.

may allow you to respond to it more productively rather than like let them understand me.

Jon McLeod (08:31)
mean, some leaders are good communicators and are very good at PR and don't really like listening to advice. And that's fine. So long as things are going okay. If things start to go badly and leaders continue to rely on their own advice, that's just, you know, they're heading for a hellhole to quote Spinal Tap. One of the great texts of modern civilisation. Absolutely, well one of my best favourite films.

Caroline Esterson (08:58)
What diverse references you're bringing up today, 16th century monks and spinal tap, Interesting.

I think that's reflected in the array of books behind you as well, isn't it?

Jon McLeod (09:10)
Probably, I don't know. I'm overwhelmed.

⁓

Caroline Esterson (09:15)
said about leaders that they're often, I think this is quite an interesting point. As you develop your career, A, it becomes a bit more isolating because you have less people to reference as you go at the hierarchy. But B, I think that you become more used yourself and being more independent of thought.

And I think one of the things that has occurred to me from all the interviews is actually don't do that, you know, constantly seek to have reference points and people around you that are going to champion, cheerlead, challenge you.

no matter what level you are within the organisation, having those reference points keep you really grounded and hopefully then it would stop some of the reputational damage that you often see with people as they progress. And that's something that you referenced as well, isn't it? You know, they're often quite fine until things go wrong. Don't wait until things go wrong, actually. Build that, your group in your circle.

to keep you solid all the way through. And those people will change as you develop your career.

Jon McLeod (10:36)
Yeah, look, I mean, I'm definitely not a leader. I'm an advisor, but leaders that I've seen fall into two categories. One category regard the purpose of leadership as killing off the competition, and that's a really bad thing to do.

Slightly Roman. Strong leaders tend to, as you say, continue to interact with those around them in order to deliver the best possible outcome and to deliver it in a way where the credit is shared

Caroline Esterson (11:10)
So you're talking a lot about organisations and what lessons can we take as individuals from the way organisations manage their reputation to the way that we manage our individual reputations?

Jon McLeod (11:26)
Well, you know, the first lesson is just take care of it, you know, have regards to it.

I think that's, you know, that is very much a message that Balthazar Grassian bears in the art of prudence. know, think about what your reputation is and take care of it like ⁓ a precious object, like an organ of the body so that's that's the first thing

Caroline Esterson (11:54)
I love that, take care of it like an organ of the body.

You build your physical strength, don't you? You think about your mental strength, but we don't necessarily think about how are we being perceived by people. I think having that extra reflection point is really important.

Jon McLeod (12:06)
Yeah.

Yeah, and it's really difficult. I think it's incredibly difficult.

Caroline Esterson (12:14)
Sometimes you have to be prepared to ask people and that's quite scary.

Jon McLeod (12:18)
Yeah, it's horrible. Who wants to do that? You know, I don't even want to ask my mum.

Caroline Esterson (12:20)
Yeah.

Jon McLeod (12:22)
so it is that is tricky. So, so yeah, I mean, you've made the second point really well, which is try to find ways of looking to look at your reflection without being narcissistic. That's quite tricky. as a boy, of course, you do that every morning because all you want to do is make sure you're clean and you haven't got shaving foam on your ear but equally, for any person to have the courage to say to another person, how did that come across?

Or

do you think I got the message across there? Or Am I being too harsh or do you think I was too lenient on that person or whatever it is?

Those are actually very difficult questions to ask because who on earth wants to hear the answer? my God. I mean, it's before the days of ubiquitous visual recording to hear your voice recorded or to see yourself filmed for the first time is horrendous.

Caroline Esterson (13:21)
yeah.

Jon McLeod (13:25)
also for a man losing his hair, to see himself from behind for the first time, to realize that it's running out, is a shock.

It's not self-perception, because self-perception is actually bloody useless. ⁓ You know, what do we do? We self-perceive all the time.

It's the perception of others, which is actually the truth. We've got to ask others but who wants to do that? I mean it's horrible.

Caroline Esterson (13:56)
I think you've said it a couple of times actually, Jon in what you've said. The first time you see that you're losing your hair, the first time you ask is really hard. And I think Brene Brown handles this beautifully because she talks about taking courageous little steps.

in areas of comfort. So you start by asking questions that are no biggie really, it's just getting used to asking the questions of people that you respect and value. It could be about anything. So that when you do need to ask the bigger questions, like, you know, in that meeting, how did I show up? What would I need to change? You know, those kinds of questions, they actually become quite easy because you've already tested the water, you've already strengthened.

Jon McLeod (14:38)
Yeah. Yeah.

Caroline Esterson (14:45)
your muscles in asking.

Jon McLeod (14:48)
I agree. You can get used to it. But I still think it's really difficult. But I would encourage people to do it, especially people who leading organizations at difficult moments, especially very experienced people who may not want to hear things. But then at the other end of the scale, people who are new to the world of work and working environments. I mean, I've been asked lots of times to talk to, in particular, Scruffy Boys, who've just started working to say, you know, we're going to need to change some things here, you know, and it's going to involve stronger personal hygiene and a better suit.

And actually, really works. you say it in a friendly way, but then they come turn into the article. And you're not asking people to wear starched collars morning dress. You're just saying, yourself together. Yeah, smarten up

Caroline Esterson (15:45)
Thanks

Jon McLeod (15:47)
in a way which suits you, but which is going to be respectful to your colleagues and your clients and your interlocutors.

Caroline Esterson (15:54)
That's the thing, isn't it? It's about being respectful to others. So when you're talking to these young people just starting out in work, how do you think the generations are changing from, you know, maybe when you first started working?

Jon McLeod (16:13)
Yeah, it's a really interesting question. mean, going back to the economic conditions when I entered the labor market, there was a recession and it was tricky.

I worked as a security guard. once had three jobs at the same time, I mean, at different times of day. I worked in a bookshop in the morning and

Caroline Esterson (16:35)
That was okay.

Jon McLeod (16:37)
in the civil service in the afternoon and in the pub in the evening.

But I still see that in people. still see in the young people who will do work, who think I need to earn some money to get an education and whatever it is. So you do see that.

Caroline Esterson (16:44)
still in the question.

Jon McLeod (16:52)
I think are strong opinions, which is good. There's clearly there's a risk of this. There's a disinformation risk, which I think there's quite good awareness of
disinformation risks amongst young people because they're sensitive to the conditions created by different platforms for providing news information.

But but there's still a kind of throttling effect of those platforms and the degree of control they exert. And also we've got AI slop as well, what's called AI slop, is just stuff which is may or may not be true, but it's just kind of kind of semi digested content, which is being spewed out.

So it's tricky their awareness.

Do they still have that work ethic though as part of your question? I think they do. Do they want quick answers?

Probably yes, in some circumstances, but I still see quite good skepticism.

So it's tricky. I think it's very tricky this generation, but I think I'm pretty confident that they're, that they are smart and aware.

Caroline Esterson (17:59)
And they have access to so much more information than we did as well. So that that stretches your thinking.

Jon McLeod (18:04)
Yeah, you've still got to read it though Caroline

Caroline Esterson (18:07)
All this into it. Yeah, absolutely. So let's let's talk a little bit about what happens when it all goes

Jon McLeod (18:07)
at the end of the day. You've still got to read it.

Caroline Esterson (18:15)
What's the worst advice that you've ever heard from anybody after a PR disaster?

Jon McLeod (18:20)
Well, I think it's a bit like Francis Urquhart in the original House of Cards. He kind of consoles the prime minister when he's in the teeth of catastrophe that it's all going to be right. this sort of, I think some of the worst advice is the false reassurance, is, you know, so there is an

Caroline Esterson (18:39)
Yeah, the same thing.

Jon McLeod (18:46)
to be frank ⁓ with the person you're advising. So draw a veil over the issue is not wise. I think equally over-encouragement to action. In other words, by default saying we've just got to get out there and get our message across.

So I think a little bit of reflective pause is always

Caroline Esterson (19:10)
I think reflective pause is good for anything before doing anything.

Jon McLeod (19:12)
Yeah.

Yeah.

you know, don't rush to action see what see what you can do. But in the end, you know, try and try and be clear as clear as you can. Don't over

Caroline Esterson (19:26)
there is such a thing as a good apology these days? Or have we just got so used to hearing people say, I'm sorry and not mean it, that it doesn't have the same weight anymore?

Jon McLeod (19:40)
Yeah, that's a good question. I think people are actually getting there because I do hear more people say, I'm sorry that as I'm sorry if you feel that way.

So whereas people now say, you know, I'm sorry you know, what happened caused you such distress and harm. human capacity of an organization to apologize that something has happened is becoming more, people are kind of getting that, it's all the way through to when your train is late of saying, we apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused, they say that we apologize for the inevitable inconvenience this will have caused.

Caroline Esterson (20:19)
I like that you get delay repay now, so I don't worry about it so much.

Jon McLeod (20:22)
Yeah, I'm a Delay Repay millionaire.

every day, every journey is Monte Carlo for me. The fact that I'm stuck on a train most of the time is neither here nor there. you

Caroline Esterson (20:27)
We trade travel for life.

Jon McLeod (20:35)
the life of people who have to go to and from London a bit.

Caroline Esterson (20:35)
you in what we do is, you know, we're constantly talking to people about make the move, try something, go for it. Inevitably, that will mean that they try some things that don't work, that flop. So if people do have a career whoopsie of any kind, what advice would you give them for recovering?

Jon McLeod (21:02)
Yeah, well, two things. Firstly, I'd be completely open about it. So I would make sure that I didn't conceal it in any way. Just put it on, you know, put it on your CV or whatever on your on your profile.

Try to understand what happened. In other words, was it because you didn't like the people or it didn't gel?

Or was it because the work was not quite within your skill set?

Did it involve a technical aspect that you weren't ready for? In which case, is there some training you should do or some vocational development? So don't conceal what happened, but understand the circumstances.

Caroline Esterson (21:43)
That level of reflection and analysis is vital, isn't it? I can remember speaking to

Jon McLeod (21:46)
Yeah.

Caroline Esterson (21:48)
a CEO quite recently and he was saying that they,

regularly pops in on interviews because he wants to see the kind of people that they're recruiting in the business. And when he does, he's listening for that level of understanding

Jon McLeod (21:57)
Yeah.

Caroline Esterson (22:04)
and self-awareness and challenge.

And if he doesn't have, if he doesn't get it in the interview, he's probing and probing and probing for it. And you're much more likely to get a job if you're owning things than if you're trying to hide them.

Jon McLeod (22:16)
Yeah, and just say, look, this is what happened. These are the circumstances. And actually afterwards, I had to think about the role and realize that I needed to train in, I don't know, to get more knowledge of how social media works or, ⁓ you know, presentation skills or, don't know, whatever the missing thing was.

Caroline Esterson (22:35)
Exactly. And I think if you're still within the company, the same rules apply, don't they? It's own up, it's learn from it and work with people to resolve it as quickly as possible.

Jon McLeod (22:40)
Yeah.

Yeah, agreed,

And if it's early stages or a stepping stone stage and something happens and you make an error of judgment, I mean, it really needs not to point to dishonesty, for example. mean, that's, you know, kind of, yeah, I mean, those are slightly difficult.

Caroline Esterson (23:04)
Yeah. Dishonesty or incompetence is unacceptable. ⁓

Yeah,

if it's serious wrongdoing, if it's dishonesty, all of those things, I don't think you can ever garner your full reputation, but there's a tarnish there, isn't there? And it affects people's trust in you. But I think what you said about in early careers, I think is really important, Jon because it's about the level of risk, isn't it? The level of risk is much...less in your early careers. So it is an opportunity to be trying things and stretching yourself much more safely than when you're say middle management, you're managing a budget that actually has huge business impact.

Jon McLeod (23:56)
yeah, and a younger person is subject to supervision, so there'll always be some form of mitigation in relation to the quality of supervision and obviously in regulated professions that supervision and its existence is absolutely binding and indeed it will be in a law firm, for example, it would be the partner that bears responsibility for regulatory breach in many cases.

There is recognition implicit in professional regulation and in career ladders that younger people may make mistakes which are not entirely of their own doing and there needs to be some leniency towards them in those circumstances.

Caroline Esterson (24:36)
Yeah, definitely. You see that happening all the time in organisations and I think now is a time where people are really being encouraged to stretch their boundaries as much as possible, which is good.

think that's good.

So Jon, in this section, we usually like to summarize. three key pieces of
people in their career. we're talking about reputation management, what are the three quick pieces of advice that you can give that people can act on straight away?

Jon McLeod (25:22)
Yeah, well, the first one is no one ever reads anything anymore. So if you you bother to read something, you'll and you turn up to the meeting your miles ahead. So that's easy. Everyone can do that. Just get up half an hour earlier and just read the thing, the stuff that you're going to be talking about in the meeting.

Caroline Esterson (25:35)
Nice, I like that one.

Jon McLeod (25:42)
The second one is, as Woody Allen says, or said, 80 % of success is showing up. So make sure you go to the events that might be optional or an extra, an added extra, the third fringe meeting of the day at the conference or whatever it is. But just make sure you're there. And also sit at the front and ask a

I would say always do that.

And then the third piece of advice is beware of false advice.

Caroline Esterson (26:13)
Yeah, so take everything Jon says with a pinch of salt, reflect on it and decide whether you think that's of value to you. think that's the key there, isn't it? Yeah.

Jon McLeod (26:21)
Good point. Yeah, good point.

Caroline Esterson (26:24)
Brilliant. Thank you, Jon.

Jon McLeod (26:37)
actually, my career quote crime is not actually words, it's intonation.

Caroline Esterson (26:43)
Okay.

Jon McLeod (26:44)
anybody who uses interrogative intonation, in other words, where every sentence sounds like a question, whether or not it's a question, to me that just makes you sound like you're brain dead. I would just, you know, it's the end for me. If you use interrogative intonation,

Caroline Esterson (26:55)
Thanks

Jon McLeod (27:02)
is the end because, you know, our intonation is to go downward when we make a statement and upward when we ask a question and it should remain that way. Otherwise you're talking gibberish.

Caroline Esterson (27:13)
I think that's quite an interesting one actually, Jon, because

I'm hearing people say ask more questions, ask more questions, ask more questions, and in response we're getting, it's the bloody questions thing again. But actually the key to curiosity and developing your understanding is frankly asking more questions. And that's, we shouldn't assume that,

Jon McLeod (27:30)
Yeah.

Caroline Esterson (27:36)
people

that you're asking a question unless you actually ask it. Sorry, that's a very long-winded way around it. I'm just thinking in conversations, we'll often make a statement that are a question. And in our close personal relationships, that's fine because we intuitively know people. But at work, we don't have that same level
understanding. So we need to be much clearer, don't we?

Jon McLeod (28:02)
Yeah, and I quite often say, let me ask you this question, Caroline. What did you have? What did you have for breakfast? So if you just let people know what's going on and also if you're an advisor, say to people, this is my advice and then say what the advice is. So just give people the opportunity to tune in, especially if people are on like conference calls and that sort of thing, you know, these are Teams Calls

You know, people zone out, of course they zone you know, reading their WhatsApps or something. So just bring them back, say their name and tell them what you're saying. So Caroline, this is my advice. Get up early and work hard. So that you kind of, that gets people ready for what you're saying. Don't expect people to be listening. Quite a lot of the time people are not listening at all.

Caroline Esterson (28:54)
Jon, thank you so much for your time today. It has been a lovely and deeply varied conversation that I'm sure people will enjoy. Is there anything that you would like to say in closing to our audience?

Jon McLeod (29:09)
Well, in the famous interview in Spinal Tap where the drummer is interviewed in the bath, his maxim for life is have a good time all the time. So I think I would end with that observation and recommend that everyone watches the film again.

Caroline Esterson (29:25)
That is lovely. Jon, thank you so much for your time today. I'm sure we'll speak very soon. Cheers,

Jon McLeod (29:32)
Good to see.

Caroline Esterson (29:42)
So what did you take from John's world of high stakes lobbying and crisis comms? There were three things for me. Firstly, reputation isn't built on spin, it's actually built on consistent action. It's the story of little moves, big careers. Second, don't wait until a crisis to check how you're showing up. Ask, reflect and adjust early. And finally,

Own your mistakes and learn from them. A career whoopsie handled well can actually build your credibility. Reputation isn't a PR job, it's a career job. Every choice, every little move you make adds up to the story people tell about you when you're not in the room. So remember, make your move, even if it's tiny, especially if it's tiny. Until next week.