Episode 12: Psychological Safety- Your Ultimate Performance Hack

In this episode, Caroline Esterson and Gary Keogh delve into the concept of psychological safety in the workplace, exploring its importance, the barriers to achieving it, and the roles individuals and leaders play in fostering an environment where everyone feels safe to speak up. They discuss personal experiences, the significance of inclusion, and practical tips for creating a psychologically safe workplace. The conversation emphasises the need for curiosity, humility, and vulnerability, and highlights the importance of measuring psychological safety to drive meaningful change.

TAKEAWAYS

• Psychological safety is crucial for open communication in teams.
• Leaders play a significant role, but everyone contributes to creating safety.
• Curiosity and humility are essential traits for fostering psychological safety.
• Two in five people feel unsafe to speak up in teams.
• Mistakes should be viewed as learning opportunities, not failures.
• Inclusion is vital for team dynamics and individual contributions.
• Measuring psychological safety can provide insights into team health.
• Creating an environment for open conversations enhances team performance.
• Empowerment and accountability can coexist in a compassionate workplace.

Small actions can lead to significant changes in workplace culture.

SOUND BITES

"We all have a role to play."
"Two in five people don't feel safe to speak up."
"You can measure psychological safety."

RESOURCES 

• Grab your: 
  • Safe to Speak checklist here
  • Bold Moves Brief here
  • Big Conversation Starter here
• Read more about it here
• CONNECT WITH GARY  HERE
• CONNECT WITH CAROLINE HERE

#psychological safety #leadership #workplace culture #team dynamics #accountability #personal development #career growth

Ready to make your next bold move? Grab the free Bold Move Audit and join the insider crew.

Stuck, simmering, or onto something juicy? I want to hear it. Drop me a line at caroline@inspireyourgenius.com - I read them all.

Chapters

• 0:00 Understanding Psychological Safety
• 2:34 Gary's personal journey from Commercial Director to psychological safety specialist
• 7:44 The Impact of Leadership on Psychological Safety
• 9:12 Creating an Environment for Open Communication
• 12:41 The Importance of Inclusion and Belonging
• 20:39 The Evolution of Psychological Safety
• 24:28 Fostering Innovation Through Psychological Safety
• 26:08 Fostering Psychological Safety in Teams
• 30:48 Measuring Psychological Safety
• 34:30 Quick Tips for Creating Psychological Safety
• 36:38 Career Quote Crime
• 40:29 Balancing compassion and accountability

Transcript

Caroline Esterson (00:00)
So welcome everybody to today's episode. And today we're talking about safety, not the high Vs, health and safety induction type. We're talking about the invisible kind, psychological safety. You know, the kind that makes or breaks whether you're actually prepared to speak up in that meeting or just nod politely. I'm Caroline Esterson, your host. And to help us decode all of this is Gary Keogh

go to psychological safety specialist

and resident myth buster. Welcome Gary, we're thrilled to have you with us.

Gary Keogh (00:36)
Thank you so much, Caroline. Great to be here.

Caroline Esterson (00:38)
tell you a little bit about Gary. Gary's 27 year career spans both FMCG and the services industries, including 11 years on various boards. He has both an MBA and a master's in coaching and behavioral change. His master's dissertation explored six.

decades of empirical evidence on psychological safety in the context of the workplace. Not only that, but he did it alongside his own research, which included very interestingly the impact of a restructure on colleagues' psychological safety. Today now, he dedicates his efforts to supporting leaders build psychological safety and unlocking the potential within individuals, teams.

and organisations. So he's very well suited to explore both the value of having it, as well as the challenges when it's absent. And you know what, most importantly for today, it's about how can we all contribute to it? Because of course, the responsibility doesn't rely solely on the leadership team, does it, Gary?

Gary Keogh (01:40)
It doesn't, Caroline. think it's important to point out from the outset that leaders absolutely play an oversized role in how psychologically safe an organisation or a team may feel. But it's not only down to leaders, and that's definitely one of the myths. We all have a role to play.

Caroline Esterson (01:58)
Absolutely. think sometimes we can wait. We wait for things to happen. And I think this podcast, as you well know, Gary, is all about how can we change the environment that we're in?

even if your manager couldn't give two hoots about creating safety, you are not powerless. Today, we're digging into what you can do to create it for yourself and others.

Because let's be honest, careers don't stall because people can't do the work. They stall because people stop saying what needs to be said, stop asking and stop trying. So I'm kind of intrigued, Gary, because you're a very seasoned commercial executive. This is a really interesting topic for you to now be diving into. So...

I'd like to know a little bit about how your career has taken you down this road. What triggered your interest in psychological safety?

Gary Keogh (03:04)
Sure. think it started maybe 12 or 13 years ago when I had some leadership coaching myself and I was classically in a middle management position and I had an aspiration to get a more senior role. I worked ⁓ with a leadership coach and one of the questions he asked me in our first session was, Gary, what's your purpose? And genuinely I had no idea Caroline what you meant. He said, come on, what lights you up? What gets you motivated? And I said, to give my family choices. And he said,

Caroline Esterson (03:22)
⁓ sorry.

Gary Keogh (03:33)
Mate, it's not that. And there was me thinking, this is a great answer. And he was like, it's not. So anyway, fast forward after a few sessions, we got under the iceberg and I wrote down four words that changed everything, unlock and ignite potential. And I thought that's what I need to do with the brands or the regions I work in. But more critically, it's what I should be doing with the team that I'm a leader within.

And then it got personal Caroline because we had our daughter diagnosed with dyslexia and it meant the mainstream mainstream school system wasn't going to be the right environment for her. So we moved house three times in four years to get her into a specialist school that specialising dyslexia at primary school level and then at secondary school level. Why? Because we needed to provide an environment that would ignite and unlock her potential. And then

Caroline Esterson (04:06)
Yeah.

crikey

Gary Keogh (04:25)
fast forward a couple more years, I went to a fantastic leader in a brilliant organisation I was working at and said, I love leadership, I love mentoring, I love coaching, but I'd like to get some proper training. And she said, what do you want? And I said, I'd love to go to Henley and do a coaching and behavioral change masters. Why? Because it's about unlocking and igniting people's potential. And then on day one, they say to you, in your third year, you get to do your own pioneering research. And I thought that sounds quite overwhelming.

But I chose to do it in the area of psychological safety. Why? Because when you get it right, it's about unlocking and igniting the potential of a team or an organisation.

Caroline Esterson (05:05)
Interesting. I think there's a couple of really interesting things in that for our listeners, think. One, you know, I love the fact that your coach asked you what was your purpose and you hadn't, you didn't know really, did you at the time? Because it does feel like such a big topic, but that reframe about what actually lights you up, what really gets you going is really important because once you've got that, everything,

It makes your choices and your decisions so much easier, doesn't it?

Gary Keogh (05:38)
Yeah, totally. And it's why you make big decisions like moving house three times in four years. I who wants to do that? But we did it because it was about getting our daughter into an environment that would unlock and ignite her potential. It makes tough decisions easier from my perspective.

Caroline Esterson (05:43)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, and you must be getting really good at decluttering there.

Gary Keogh (05:56)
Yeah, absolutely. yeah, completely. It's, ⁓ and like why, when I was doing my dissertation, Henley, it was a lot of work, a lot of work. And I had to do it at the same time. I chose to do it rather than had to do it at the same time as doing quite a big senior corporate role. But every page I turned, every bit of research I did, I was learning something new about how to unlock and ignite potential. So it fit absolutely perfectly with what I want to do.

Caroline Esterson (06:24)
And it stops being a chore then, doesn't it? Because even though you've got a really senior role, you're raising a family, you're studying, it doesn't feel like a chore because it's what you really want to do. And I think the other message that I would like to highlight, because I think this is actually really important, is if you don't ask, you don't get. You asked if they would support you, and they said yes.

Gary Keogh (06:43)
yeah.

Yeah. And the response I got from my line manager at times, she was absolutely fantastic. She said, you know what, we need more of a coaching culture here. We need more of an environment where we're empowering people and we're unlocking their potential. So what do you need? And then you get into a conversation about, well, these things are quite expensive and I'll be away from work for period for quite long periods of time. And she was like, we need it. What do you need?

Caroline Esterson (07:09)
Brilliant. So you tapped it tapped into their needs too. Fantastic. So I think it is really interesting because we do always have choices. And I think that as you go through your career, you start to recognise the things that feel really important to you. And you you kind of you want to keep your learning going, don't you? And stretch yourself down those specialist specialist routes.

So with the teams, as you were doing your studying, what kind of impacts did you see in or did you notice in your behaviour and the impact that was having on the teams?

Gary Keogh (07:44)
Do you know what? One of the, I thought doing a dissertation and studying psychological safety would put me in a better position to create it. But one of the things that I learned and a personal reflection I had to make was how much my own optimism, how much my own action orientation, how much my desire to get to a decision quickly could potentially be hampering psychological safety in my team. And let me explain why.

And it took me time to realise this Caroline. it wasn't something I didn't wake up and just dream it up one day. if people think that psychological safety can be destroyed because people are being negative and it can, of course it can. I'm sure we'll talk about that. But I learned that my kind of get up and go and let's just crack on with things and it'll be okay. Was actually at times getting in the way of people saying, well, what if it isn't? And if we go down this track, it may not be the, be the best route to go, go down.

Caroline Esterson (08:38)
Hmm.

Gary Keogh (08:43)
So I reflect on that sometimes and wonder if my overly optimistic nature might have gotten in the way of people not wanting to burst my bubble,

Caroline Esterson (08:51)
that's really interesting, isn't it? Because the more we understand ourselves, what drives us, the more we can think about the impact that we have on people around us as well. And I think that's such a brilliant example, because we do automatically assume that psychological safety is about the negativity. But it's not, it can be so much more subtle than that.

Gary Keogh (08:58)
Yeah.

Caroline Esterson (09:12)
like we've talked in previous episodes, no communication is neutral. It either boosts your

bank account or you're taking debits from it. So, know, Gary, you've talked about your particular illustration. Does your natural optimism and action orientation have an impact on whether people want to speak up?

What other kind of things do you see in practice that impact psychological safety?

Gary Keogh (09:40)
me give you a figure, which is quite alarming. So two in five people in every team doesn't feel safe to speak up. That's global Ipsos data and that's research that's been done in the last 12 months. let's break that down a little bit. It doesn't mean they're not saying anything at all, but it does mean that they're...

The terminology is self-censoring. So they're pulling their punches. They're not, they're not sharing what they really think. Now, if you imagine like a couple of the barriers that are in the way, those two and five people, when their alarm clock goes off in the morning at whatever time it does, and they get out of bed to go to work, they don't want to look ignorant. So they don't ask questions. They don't want to look incompetent. So they don't talk about mistakes. And some of them don't want to look intrusive. So they don't challenge the status quo. So

Sometimes what gets in our way is we feel like we need to save face. We feel like that we can talk about failure because it has a negative impact on our personal reputation. Or we don't want to challenge the status quo because we don't want to be labeled a troublemaker. So they're just some of the things that are getting in the way of people raising very valid concerns or even sharing great ideas that they're worried that people may not react well to.

Caroline Esterson (10:55)
You just you've reminded me of the experience that I had very early in my career because I was that person that kept asking questions. I'm just naturally curious And my boss started calling me a maverick because I was asking asking lots of questions, but it wasn't in a positive sense. It was, here she goes again, eye rolls and that.

fed out amongst the rest of the team. So whenever I started speaking, you would see people go, the Maverick's talking again. And so it got to the point where I just didn't say anything at all.

Gary Keogh (11:26)
Yeah. And, and, and what a shame, right? Because people being silent in a meeting doesn't add any value. Like literally none. And when you kind of get to the nub of this, like organisations, and it doesn't matter what size they are, pay people for the value that they're going to bring to the table. And then in, and then if the environment is created in which people feel they can't share those great ideas or voice their concerns, then

Caroline Esterson (11:34)
Bye.

Gary Keogh (11:53)
No one's getting any value. The individual isn't getting any value because that's what they want to add at work. And the organisation's not getting the value that they could have from talking about something they're concerned about or a great idea they have.

Caroline Esterson (12:05)
I've just just jotted that down.

Organisations pay people for

value that they bring to the table. That links really well with last week's episode, because we were talking about the gap, the gap between what you have to do and what you're capable of doing and that the value that you can bring and,

being able to make that choice to add value. It's not just about the organisation. It's about you as well, isn't it? It's about you feeling that you're making a contribution that is valued and worthwhile. And if you can't do that, it affects everything. And there's no hope of getting high performance from the team, is there at all?

Gary Keogh (12:41)
No, and you're touching on something like that's vital to psychological safety that's kind of below the iceberg a bit. I mean, when I hear you reflect on your experience, I think you bring up a really important area around inclusion and belonging. So I feel like I should be here. I feel like my unique skills and experience are valuable when I bring them to the table. that's, it's not a great place to be when you don't feel that. And there will be plenty of people listening.

Caroline Esterson (12:54)
Hmm.

Gary Keogh (13:09)
to this conversation, some of which are like highly engaged in their roles, really feel like they belong, couldn't imagine working anywhere else. And there'll be some people in exactly the same organisation that feel exactly the opposite.

Caroline Esterson (13:22)
And I think if you're talking about two in five, that's really, that's such a lot of people and such a lot of waste of potential, isn't it? And the fact that in one part of the organisation, it could be amazing and in another, it can't. It shows the impact that individuals can have.

Gary Keogh (13:29)
Hmm.

Caroline Esterson (13:44)
And I'm thinking the team meeting, think it's such a classic

moment to see whether a team is effective or not. If you look at it, if you observe any team meeting, you can make really quick.

evidence-based judgments about how that team is because you can see what's being said but also what's not being said as well. One of the things for me that happens in meetings is if you've got a boss,

that starts a team meeting with a download of information talking about measurements, this is where we're at, this is what we've got to do, blah, blah, blah. And oh, by the way, has anybody got any ideas? The download has just bamboozled people. they're on input mode, not output. So they're not ready to share. And we're not creating an environment where it...

it's ready for them, that they're ripe to share that information that they want to. And I think leaders need to make those connections more fluidly for people.

Gary Keogh (14:51)
I totally agree. And you mentioned something a minute or so ago, which is so vital as a great question a leader could ask. A leader could ask in the course of the conversation, or even to when people think the conversation is drying up, they could ask, okay, what's not being said? Or what have we missed? And I love your analogy of a download, because a download is not listening. A download is just talking. A download is not

Caroline Esterson (15:07)
Yeah.

Gary Keogh (15:19)
framing or inviting participation, it's kind of telling people what's happening. And you're right, the listener could almost be there thinking, well, I'm now making a judgment on what I can and can't say based on what has already been said by the leader. another example would be, imagine the tonality of a leader saying in a meeting, right, here's where the numbers are. I want all of you to tell me what you think is right now.

Caroline Esterson (15:45)
now.

Gary Keogh (15:48)
And you can imagine perhaps some of the more introverted reflective think reflective thinkers who come up with brilliant ideas,

shutting down and thinking, well, maybe I'm not going to voice what I was thinking before versus someone else saying, look, here's where the numbers are compared to where we wanted to be. Do know what? I haven't got all the answers. And that's why I'm really curious to hear what people think.

Caroline Esterson (15:59)
completely.

Gary Keogh (16:14)
we can collectively do to get to a better place. Like the tonality of asking for a contribution is completely different in those two situations.

Caroline Esterson (16:23)
Yeah,

absolutely. And I think that

the leaders being open enough to be able to say, don't have all the answers, but I'm sure together we can work it out is so important, isn't it? And I think sometimes when your leaders aren't open like that.

it shouldn't stop you. know, we can, think organisations need leaders at all levels. And I think if you're that way inclined, you keep doing it because you can role model that behavior for your leaders too.

Gary Keogh (16:51)
Yeah, I do think

think psychologically something gets in people's way. So that old imperialistic model of leadership in the 1980s, where leaders were in command and control mode, where the CEO was a superhero and knew everything. I mean, those times have gone that the work the world is far too complex, right for a star and it moves far too quickly for anyone individual to have all the answers.

So I think one of the most important things that leaders and colleagues can do is demonstrate that vulnerability and say, look, I haven't got all the answers. That's why we've got the team and we've got the people in the room with different skills and experience to help come to where we could go. So I think leaders who think they should have all the answers need to get out of their own way and realise that they don't, and they need to unlock that potential in their team.

Caroline Esterson (17:36)
Mm.

Absolutely.

Gary Keogh (17:45)
let me, let me give you a personal example of, of something I got wrong. And I remember it so well and wish I could have my time again. And people listening, maybe we'll have had a similar experience and imagine you're in like what we're in, we're in August, like we're in the summertime now and you kick off a project at the start of the year and the project isn't going to plan.

So it's not working the way expected because you've got data, you've got metrics, or you've just got a hunch. And you get the team together and you say, look, things aren't working the way they could have done. Let's kind of have a look at how we can course correct. And then someone in your team, and I've had this happen to me, says, yeah, I could have told you that back in January. My reaction used to be, why didn't you say that? Why didn't you bring it up sooner? My thought now having...

like study this area deeply is actually that was the wrong reaction. The right reaction would have been what environment had I created whereby they couldn't have brought it up at the time or didn't bring it up at the moment. And we spent all this time and invested all this money and things aren't working. So I think that would be one of my pet hates the way leaders can react to people in the moment and go, well, why didn't you bring it up three weeks ago, three months ago, six months ago versus them reflecting on

what environment did I create so but whereby someone didn't feel they could.

Caroline Esterson (19:07)
Yeah, such a good point because...

one of the skills that we all need to learn is that skill of reflection. And I often talk about pre-reflection. Just before you react, just take a moment. Just take a moment. What do you want the outcome to be here? And I think if we can develop that early in our careers, it helps us going forward because it's a habit, isn't it? I think when we're busy, we're so busy kind of diving from one thing to the next.

reacting to the situation that's in front of us tends to be the name of the game but actually that moment to go right what outcome do want to create here? Interesting is a much more productive way of dealing with it isn't it?

Gary Keogh (19:51)
Yeah, and look, we can be quite hard on ourselves in this as well, Caroline, because corporate structures are built for people to be confident and definitive and act quickly and be decisive. And that seems to be well rewarded when actually there's times when we do need to say, OK, well, let's take a bit of time. And I don't mean all the time in the world. I don't even mean a week necessarily.

but just a bit of time for people to reflect deeply on a decision that's about to be made. Like make sure the diagnostics are really, really clear. Have we got all the evidence we need? Have we got enough evidence to make a decision and then go, okay, we've taken a bit of time. Let's, let's decide now versus people feeling the pressure to, I've got to decide now. And then perhaps regret that a bit later. And then they can't track. So worried about saving face.

Caroline Esterson (20:36)
Yeah, I must do that.

Absolutely. And asking that question, what is it that we don't know yet? Let's work this out that you said earlier as well, I think is really

Gary Keogh (20:43)
Mm.

Caroline Esterson (20:58)
So if we go back a little bit, know, psychological safety has become a bit of a buzzword in organisations, hasn't it? Where did it even come from? You you've got six decades of evidence that you've looked at. Where did it come from and why do you think it's so important now?

Gary Keogh (21:18)
So the first reference to psychological safety was by two MIT professors in 1965. You can trace it back a decade or two earlier, where an American psychologist, Carl Rogers, talked about unconditional positive regard, talked about the ability of hearing other people talk about things, but you listen without judgment. So I think you can trace psychological safety back to Carl Rogers, even though he never used the term.

Caroline Esterson (21:26)
Right.

Yes.

Gary Keogh (21:49)
Then between 65, when the two MIT professors referenced it, there was a big gap and not a lot of research done until a chap called William Kahn started off again in 1990. But more famously, Amy Edmonson picked up the reins towards the end of the 1990s and kicked off basically a generation of research that links psychological safety to better decision-making.

greater innovation and productivity, higher employee engagement and motivation, and critically, and what everyone wants, higher performance.

Also, in that kind of like short history lesson, the first real book on psychological safety wasn't written until 2018 when Amy Edmonson wrote The Fearless Organisation. That's only seven years ago. The first mainstream article didn't appear in The Wall Street Journal until 2016, which was about project

Aristotle, which was done at Google, where they defined psychological safety as the most important thing to high performing teams. So while the term may have been around for decades, I think it started to seep into corporate jargon in the last only the last few years. And I think the lack of depth of understanding as to the dynamics of psychological safety means that it's been misunderstood. And so some people are almost weaponizing it and saying, Caroline, you didn't agree with me. I don't feel psychologically safe.

Caroline Esterson (22:46)
you

Gary Keogh (23:15)
when you and me both know that psychological safety isn't about a pat on the back all the time. It's not about guaranteed applause for all your ideas. It's not about no accountability or no stress at work, unfortunately. It's about creating a candid energizing place to work where you and me can disagree on something and we can still have high levels of respect and that disagreement helps us get to a better place.

Caroline Esterson (23:17)
Okay.

You mentioned innovation and I think that's always a really, really interesting one because I see organisations that go...

We want our people to be more innovative and you leaders you need to allow time for them to be more innovative but we've still got to do the day stuff and I think that in the constant pressure nobody's actually saying right so on one hand we've got to do business as usual and get things get things done but I don't know about you but I want things to improve as well

how as a team can we get to that point where we are innovating and improving? What is it that we need to do? it's about just being prepared to ask the questions that get people exploring together how to do it and I don't think that's that hard. Why is it so hard for some people to do that?

Gary Keogh (24:28)
I think it's because organisations spend too much time on outcomes and not enough time on behaviours and process. by that I mean, so let's just pick innovation, right? For innovation,

Caroline Esterson (24:34)
Yeah, that's a really good point.

Gary Keogh (24:41)
if you're trying new things, mistakes are going to happen. Failure is going to happen. Now, if mistakes and failure is treated as blameworthy, well then guess what? People are going to be worried about trying new things. Whereas

If mistakes and failures are treated in an organisation as learning experiences to get as the path to success, not the opposite to success, which is failure. Well, then you've got a chance. If, if you want people to be more innovative, you've got to have a situation where people having more open conversations, literally talking about things that they want to try and do differently and worrying about the task in hand rather than face saving and thinking, well, I don't think they're going to like my idea

Like if you want innovation, need functions and teams in organisations to be able to ask each other for help. But sometimes people get in their own way because they think, if, if I ask you for help, Caroline, you're going to think that I'll think you won't think I'm good enough at what I'm doing. When actually in my experience, nine times out of 10, people are amazing. And if you ask them for help, they couldn't be happier to help you.

Caroline Esterson (25:26)
Yeah.

Gary Keogh (25:46)
I'd say a focus on behaviors that get you to outcomes is what people are missing. And we can't have CEOs stand up, just say things like, we need to be more innovative. They also need to facilitate that and say, mistakes will happen. We need more open dialogue. We need to be comfortable asking each other for help and start to build in some of those behaviors.

Caroline Esterson (26:08)
And think sometimes you need people that are prepared to go, interesting, let's try something. Let's see what happens.

So if you are an individual contributor and you've got no power,

what would you say to somebody that doesn't feel psychologically safe? How can they

develop it

Gary Keogh (26:29)
it's linked back to what we were talking about earlier, right? It's leaders play an oversized role, there is a contribution everyone can make to this. And I think there are some really important human traits that people can lean back on to help create psychological safety in their own way. Curiosity would be one.

And if you can combine curiosity with genuinely actively listening to the answer, like genuinely listening to what other people are saying, I don't mean listening for the information and data that proves your point, but listen to out for data and information that actually contradicts what you think and be prepared to be flexible in that moment as well. So I think.

Caroline Esterson (27:12)
Be prepared to question on the things that you're not seeing that you thought you might see or the responses that people are giving. I'm curious, it looks like you're feeling a bit uncomfortable about this as an example is a really good one, just being able to lean into those conversations that bring out feelings as well, emotions.

Gary Keogh (27:17)
Yes.

Yeah, which also requires something else that we go with curiosity would be humility, like the ability to say, do you know what, I hadn't seen that perspective. That's an interesting thought. And for a moment, maybe there's like a small cost to us. But if you're in a respectful relationship with someone else and you say, hadn't seen that perspective, that's really interesting. How do you think that makes them feel? And that contribution that can make to them speaking up.

and sharing ideas with you as well. I'll give you an example.

Caroline Esterson (28:01)
Absolutely.

Gary,

you say a small cost to us, what do you mean by that?

Gary Keogh (28:08)
Well, I mean, some people would think that if I say, someone else had a better idea than me or a greater contribution, well, then I've now put them up on a pedestal and I've put myself lower. therefore, like, so some people would worry that they'd be, they'd lose face in that situation when, when actually, if you're trying to create an environment where people feel safe to speak up without being worried about it being used against them, well, like acknowledging and appreciating their contribution.

Caroline Esterson (28:15)
Right.

Gary Keogh (28:37)
will mean that they will do it again in the future rather than they will hold things back. so that level of curiosity and humility that we don't have all the answers applies at all levels. It's not just in the senior parts of an organisation. I could share with you a story about an organisation who has this in their DNA. And yes, it's led from the top, but it has to be implemented by teams. So Netflix is an organisation.

Caroline Esterson (28:39)
Absolutely.

Mm.

Gary Keogh (29:02)
where they have two principles. They essentially appoint informed captains who are the leaders of projects and they don't have to be the MD or the CEO, but they've got one obligation. They need to farm for dissent in the organisation. So informed means you farm for dissent, captain means you make the final call, right? And that's the commitment Netflix make to anyone who's appointed a project.

Now farming for descent means they go around the organisation and imagine it's someone in production and they've got an idea for a piece of content that they want to make into a film. They go to marketing and they ask marketing to break the idea and build on the idea. They go to technology, they go to finance, they go to content generation, all the different functions within Netflix.

Caroline Esterson (29:50)
I've just listened

to this and thinking, my god, what an exciting organisation to work for!

Gary Keogh (29:55)
Yeah.

And guess what they have to do? They have to demonstrate humility because they will hear ideas that build or break what they're working on. They have to be curious about what other people think. have to and they should appreciate the contribution of others because it's helping to make their idea better. But when that idea goes all the way back to be signed off at the end and the informed captain has the ability to answer the board and the board say, about, what about, what about? They've already been around.

And they've already checked it they've got the answers. And then when they make the final call, it's their call based on that principle. So Netflix commitment is you are the leader of this decision. Your obligation is one thing you farm for dissent. And that's why, that's one of the reasons why they're so successful.

Caroline Esterson (30:41)
So before we finish this little section, Gary,

How do we know when a team has psychological safety?

Gary Keogh (30:48)
Brilliant question, Caroline. You can make psychological safety as tangible as your share price, as your market share, as any other metric in your business. How? You measure it. Right? And here's what makes it really easy. Seven questions or seven survey statements that the team rates on a one to seven likert scale. And within three minutes, you can aggregate it up across the four domains of psychological safety.

Caroline Esterson (30:59)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Gary Keogh (31:16)
and understand where your team or your organisation is performing well and where you've got challenges. So it measures.

Caroline Esterson (31:22)
This is part of

the work, isn't it, that you do with organisations to get that baseline first?

Gary Keogh (31:28)
Exactly. So it, it tells you where a team or an organisation is on how open conversations really are, how mistakes and failure is treated. Like what is the willingness for people to help each other and how much inclusion do you have or not? And the critical thing, Caroline, is you get a median score, which can be extent externally benchmarked against other organisations, but you also get the spread of perception. You also get the high and low scores.

Caroline Esterson (31:57)
Okay.

Gary Keogh (31:57)
So you can

look, you can look at the data and you can go like, could be sitting there as a member of the team thinking, I think the conversations are quite open. Wow. A lot of people in this team don't feel the same as I do. And the important thing is, is the data isn't there so we can go, Oh, look, you're a good, good organisation or a bad organisation. The data is there as a catalyst to then have a conversation with the team about, okay, how's this dynamic playing out in your team? What's working? What's not working?

Like what behavior change do you want to see and what actions do we need to put in place? So this point around, don't just end up saying, well, you just need to have more open conversations. That's an outcome. You have to focus on what, what is the process and the behavior change that everyone's going to contribute to, to make sure you get that.

the important thing is,

don't have to overestimate. don't have to hypothesis. They don't have to guess. You can measure it.

It takes three minutes to find out.

Caroline Esterson (32:53)
Brilliant. And what I love about that is that it's a catalyst for starting the conversation, isn't it? Because we are all unique, different people. So you gave the illustration that one person might think that there's really open conversations in this team where somebody else doesn't. That's because of our differences and what we need as part of it. So it enables, I think, really safely for people to share that.

Gary Keogh (33:09)
Exactly.

And safely because I'm glad you raised that because it's confidential and anonymous. So no one knows who scored what the important thing is, is that you raise the surface, how the team collectively feel. And, and, and that's where you then start a conversation. I've had run workshops with teams where such interesting stories have come out. Like one individual in one workshop said, look, I don't feel like I can ask this team to help because I'll, I'll feel like a personal failure. Like I feel I should know the answer.

And the reaction he got from the team was they turned around and said, but we respect you so highly. We would never think that of you. We would, we would never think worse of you if you asked for help. And the look on his face, he was like, Oh, wow. He looked like he looked less alone immediately,

Caroline Esterson (34:15)
Gary, I'd like to ask you, if you were to encourage anybody at any level to step into this zone where they're working to create psychological safety, what three tips would you give

Gary Keogh (34:30)
of all, I'd say, stop guessing, stop guessing and hypothesizing how safe a team feels and first of all, measure it and then be prepared to hear some of the things that maybe could be quite difficult and uncomfortable to hear. But then you get the opportunity to change it. That would be a very, very simple way that you could change things very quickly. Your whole team will suddenly go, well, this person really cares about what I think.

Caroline Esterson (34:58)
Yeah, absolutely.

Gary Keogh (34:59)
and they will contribute.

Caroline Esterson (35:01)
Yeah, completely. And I think, you know, the bit that you said before about stop second guessing, that's for all of us. You know, we all worry in our heads, don't we, about why did that happen? And if we make it bigger and bigger and bigger, if we just ask the question, can you help me understand what's going on here? Or a version of that. That's all of us making a contribution as well.

Gary Keogh (35:26)
I agree.

I think, I think the other thing, if you don't have data, like carry with you some brilliant human qualities that

of your listeners will have anyway, like curiosity, humility, and vulnerability. If you don't know the answer to someone at something, ask someone. And if you need someone's help, ask them and like nine times out of 10, people react brilliantly. And yeah, so we can get out of our own way.

on things like that.

Caroline Esterson (35:57)
I love that, just get out of our own way. Get out of our heads and get out of our own way. I think it's a really good one. And as we draw to a close, Gary, one of our listeners' favorite segments is career quote crime.

it's time for that quote that we need to put firmly in the bin. And this week, Gary has chosen it.

So this week's quote is don't come to me with problems, come with solutions.

Gary Keogh (36:38)
Right. So this, this is a sure far way of killing psychological safety. Right. If you say to a team or a company, don't come to problems, come to solutions. Like personally, think identifying problems in a company often or in a team often is an individual that sees it, but resolving it is a team sport. And the challenge is I'm not suggesting people shouldn't have initiative.

I'm not, I'm not suggesting people shouldn't come with ideas to their line manager and say, I've thought about X or X or Y, but I promise you, if you tell people not to come to you with problems, only come when they've got a solution, you will be suppressing some really important things that you need to resolve in your organisation. And it's a sure what fire way of killing people feeling safe to speak up.

Caroline Esterson (37:27)
And know what? It's rampant. I hear it all the time and I bet you do. Why do you think managers say it? What's going on?

Gary Keogh (37:34)
Well, I remember like being told years and years ago it myself and I think it was designed to try and empower us to come up with the solution. But, yeah. And I think it was like, we should show initiative and I don't disagree with empowerment. Empowerment is brilliant. Like I thrived in empowering cultures myself and also coming up with ideas is things that people like to do. But, the challenge is, is that's not always down to one person.

Caroline Esterson (37:44)
Okay, so it's historical twist that we've built really.

Gary Keogh (38:02)
Like if you bring a challenge or a problem to a group of people, I promise you will come up with a better solution if people feel safe to speak up. So I think it's an historical thing, Caroline, and I understand the sentiment behind it is probably more positive, but I don't think it belongs in corporate life anymore.

Caroline Esterson (38:19)
No, absolutely. And you know, I see people physically shutting down and what it's not just that the people shut down, but the leader shuts down as well because the leader I will get in my my job when I'm doing research for a project, I'll get a lot of people saying they're always coming to me with problems, not solutions. And I'm getting really, really frustrated with it. And so they stop expecting things.

So again, it impacts on high performance, it? Because if the leader doesn't have high expectations of their team and the team doesn't have a particularly high expectation of the leader, we're on a downward spiral for nothing, really. So I think I love for me, the reframe is absolutely identifying problems as often individual, but solving problems as a team sport and getting people to recognise that.

Gary Keogh (39:10)
Yeah.

Caroline Esterson (39:12)
So if you've got a leader that is saying, don't come to me with problems, I just want solutions, grab a few of your colleagues, start working that problem and build it so that you can go with something that is more tangible. Even if it is the problem, you've got some data to support the problem. And I think that's really

Gary Keogh (39:34)
I did a session with an elite sports club a few months ago and I mentioned this point and one of the directors of the business came up to me afterwards and said, Gary, we've got a WhatsApp group called don't come to me with problems, come to me with solutions. And I kind of, I looked back and before I had, before I could even say anything, they then said to me, I think we should change the name of the group, shouldn't we? And I said, I think that's a brilliant, a brilliant idea.

Caroline Esterson (39:57)
you

Do you know what they've changed it to?

Gary Keogh (40:04)
I don't know, but I do know it was was proof that they were listening to what I was saying. Someone was listening to what I was saying for once, which was great.

Caroline Esterson (40:09)
Right.

I think lots of people are listening today too to what you're saying. So with that, we're moving on to the end and I like to leave our listeners with some words of encouragement. if things are feeling tough, what would you say to people to kind of get them going so they want to do something about this topic?

Gary Keogh (40:29)
I, do you know what, when I started, Henley doing a master's in coaching behavioral change five years ago, compassion was everywhere. Remember we were in this thing called a global pandemic and, people were saying like there was big government furlough payments. People were saying, stay safe at the end of every call. There was online cocktail parties. Compassion was everywhere. And then in the new normal post the pandemic and with tragically some, some issues with the global environment.

Caroline Esterson (40:46)
Mmm, perfect!

Gary Keogh (40:57)
meaning there's a cost of living crisis and the price of goods have gone up. It's tough for companies now. The challenge I see is the pendulum has swung from compassion to like driving performance and accountability.

Yeah.

Caroline Esterson (41:09)
Can I just add to that as well? think

it's tough for organisations now, it's tough for individuals as well, which builds an even bigger chasm between the two, doesn't it? Because everybody is feeling huge pressure.

Gary Keogh (41:19)
It does.

Yeah. And I would say don't wait for the pendulum to swing back towards compassion. You can do both. just that there should never be a civil war in my view between compassion and accountability. we have people come to work to add value for their own self-esteem, to have their own careers, that lots of reasons why people work in organisations take them on. There's the best leaders I see at the moment are the ones that haven't deserted compassion and they still keep their teams accountable.

And I think that's absolutely possible. And if you can, if you can build an environment where people feel safe to speak up, you've got a greater chance of making that happen.

Caroline Esterson (41:57)
Yeah, and accountability sometimes when you're under pressure can be used as a little bit of a stick to beat people with, can't it? But actually, being accountable to yourselves and encouraging accountability with your colleagues is a really important

for creating that high performance and doing what you really are capable of.

Gary Keogh (42:20)
Absolutely.

Caroline Esterson (42:21)
When we hold ourselves to account, we rise.

Gary Keogh (42:24)
Yeah.

Caroline Esterson (42:25)
I've absolutely loved chatting to you today. Thank you so much for joining us. And in finishing off, remember, you don't need to be in charge to make things safer. You just have to start noticing some of the cracks and filling them with a bit of courage and compassion.

And before we go, I want to let you know that there is a cheeky bonus dropping for you on Thursday called Rise Above, where we explore more below the line behaviours that impact not just psychological safety, but also your reputation and particularly early in your career. It can be really easy to get sucked into these. ⁓

So if you've enjoyed the episode, want you to do two things for me today. One, check out Gary, Gary Keogh Connect with him. Gary, where's the best place for them to, for our listeners to find out more information about you.

Gary Keogh (43:24)
Definitely LinkedIn. could, you find me on LinkedIn, Gary Keough, K-E-O-G-H, there's loads of complimentary resources on there on psychological safety. And I've got to say before I go, Caroline, shame on that person for having a go at you for asking questions in that meeting. I think your questions are brilliant, curiosity driven and are excellent. So thank you for that.

Caroline Esterson (43:39)
Ugh.

thank

you, Gary. Thank

I would say, do sign up for Gary's newsletter on LinkedIn. It is an absolute stonker every week. All his details will be in the show notes for you. So you can reach him very easily. And of course, please do share this episode and leave a review on your favorite podcast.

platform for us, it'll really help us reach other people just like you who might need a little bit of help every now and then. So thank you very much for joining us and remember make your move even if it's tiny especially if it's tiny.