Episode 13: In conversation with Paul Dawson, CEO Agena Group - Navigating early career challenges.

In this conversation, Paul Dawson reflects on his early career experiences, the challenges faced in management, and the importance of mentorship and continuous learning. He discusses overcoming prejudice, navigating stress, and the significance of organisational culture. 

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• Despite being average in GCSEs it didn't stop Paul from carving out an incredible career
• Apprenticeship led to an unexpected career path.
• No regrets about career decisions made.
• Importance of mentorship and learning from others.
• Facing prejudice in early management roles.
• Mental health challenges due to work stress.
• Embracing discomfort leads to growth.

Connect with Caroline here

Connect with Paul here

Agena Group website

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Chapters

• 0:00 Early Career Beginnings
• 1:54 Navigating Apprenticeships and Early Lessons
• 5:12 Overcoming Prejudice and Building Confidence
• 8:16 The Impact of Stress and Mental Health
• 10:58 Embracing Uncomfortable Situations
• 13:54 Mentorship and Personal Growth
• 16:43 Find your Protection

Transcript

Caroline Esterson (00:00)
So welcome back. This week we have a really special treat for you. We have an interview with Paul Dawson, who's the CEO of Agena Group, about how his career flourished. It's raw, honest, and full of incredible nuggets to help you reflect on the choices that you're making. So much so that I've had to split it into two parts this week.

And I hope that by doing this, encourages you to take that moment of reflection, to take those lessons and learn from them. This first part is Paul's early career. And the theme here is self-awareness. He talks all things from early growth and comfort zones to boundaries and from dealing with prejudice and getting mentors. The second part is about leadership, both personal leadership

and also leadership in terms of leading teams and a company.

In it, you'll explore how important it is to find something that you love and how to do it, as well as career tips and ideas for growth. So let me start by properly introducing you to Paul.

Paul boasts 18 years of executive experience at Capita. Here he was known for driving performance, spotting marketing opportunities, fostering excellence and championing

led on key projects including the Criminal Records Bureau, TFL congestion charging, Capita's IT services and the Ministry of Justice's electronic tagging. How's that for a bit of variety?

And what you'll learn is that none of this is about going through the motions. In each of these roles, Paul had something very challenging to deal with, and he excels in that dynamic business setting, emphasizing growth, innovation, and organizational development. He's so passionate about empowering individuals for business success, and you'll hear that as a thread running through everything he talks about. Now, beyond work, he's a family man.

He lives in the Wirral, he enjoys mountain walks, coaches junior football and most importantly for me, he keeps chicken so I've got a lot to learn from there too. Let's get straight into it.

Speaker 1 (02:30)
Well, that does take me back, Caroline. feels like literally a lifetime ago. So I guess I started working kind of the age of 13, kind of, you know, Saturday jobs, working in my family's business. And then I would never really enjoyed my time in school. I was never particularly academic. Struggled like lots of people with the whole process of going through my qualifications and

I left school at the age of 16, finished in the May. Scraped through

Speaker 2 (03:03)
so you didn't have to take them. ⁓

Speaker 1 (03:07)
scraped through my GCSEs with, let's say, average results and then started work as an apprentice two months later.

Speaker 2 (03:18)
Okay, so what kind of apprenticeship were you on?

Speaker 1 (03:21)
Well, interesting. I'd always wanted to work in a bank. It's where I'd done my work experience when I was very young in school. I always had this desire of wanting to work in that kind of financial environment. So I applied for a finance apprenticeship scheme with a company called Mercury Communications, subsequently known as Cable and Wireless Communications. And I was sat in the assessment day in Warrington and we'd done the maths test and we'd done the English test. And then they handed me a plug with a

cable and a screwdriver and said, right, you've got 15 minutes to wire a plug. So, you know, not necessarily wanted to kind of challenge authority at that stage. I was like, okay, fine. So I wired the plug put it down? And I've just called someone over and can I just understand why, you know, wiring a plug's relevant to becoming like a finance person? And they're like, oh no, you're in the engineering assessment, not the finance assessment.

Speaker 2 (04:15)
interesting how when we're younger we kind of spot something, go for it, just see what happens and suddenly realize it's not what we expected.

Speaker 1 (04:25)
Yeah, so there was 2000 people applied for that apprenticeship role and there was 12 roles and I was lucky enough to be offered one of the engineering apprenticeships which wasn't the finance one I'd applied for but at that point I was quite happy to just start my route into work so gladly kind of took on the role and started from there.

Speaker 2 (04:48)
any regrets about not pursuing your finance apprenticeship at the time?

Speaker 1 (04:54)
I guess I kind of feel like, you know, now being in a private equity world as a chief exec looking at spreadsheets and numbers every time, maybe I've got, maybe I ended up getting there after all. But I think the journey I've taken, no regrets whatsoever. think most careers are filled with a set of unconscious decisions at times or a kind of path that you, that you're taking on as opposed to that's, you well-defined, I think.

I people who, you know, maybe go into medicine or have a very, very precise career ambition,  maybe follow that kind of path that they're destined to be on. no, for myself, I think it's been a series of decisions that have taken me in a whole range of different directions, not necessarily part of the plan when I left school. like many others, I'm sure.

Speaker 2 (05:43)
I think that's really interesting. Looking back, you can analyse that it's a whole sequence of decisions. Some of them weren't probably planned out. It was just an opportunity arose. I guess you thought it might be quite interesting and went for it. But going back to the engineering side of things, I think it's always really fascinating when you think about the jobs that people do.

We don't always take the time to really reflect on the skills that that bit taught us. So, you know, if you think about engineering, it's not just the technical skills that you learn. There's so much, isn't there, about problem solving, you know, that real need to dig in to understand what's going on as well. I I wonder what other grounding skills you think that that apprenticeship gave you.

Speaker 1 (06:30)
Yeah, it's interesting actually, I still think back very fondly to those kind of times as an apprentice and think, you know, very often about how generous those people were with their time and their knowledge and their expertise to teach me. was never ashamed or afraid to say, I don't know what I need to do or I need some help. ⁓ And I, at that time, I guess I just craved knowledge. ⁓

And I look back now and I still think, you know, the respect that I have for generally everyone I work with, the way that we conduct ourselves in the business, how we've built the culture of the organization. For me, a lot of that goes all the way back to how I felt as an apprentice, how I was treated. You know, and I suffered some real prejudices back then, you know, we'll come onto it kind of later in my career that first move into management. You know, you're not qualified. You don't have college.

qualifications, you don't have a degree, you're too young, you why should you manage me when I'm older than you? So lots of, I think you face lots of prejudice along that, along that journey. But I think, yeah, there's some real grounding with some incredible people who showed me the way my early years of my career have stayed with me today for sure.

Speaker 2 (07:46)
Absolutely. you know, Paul, when you said that I could just see your face light up thinking about those people. And for me, one of the things that I'd really like people who are eager to continue learning, to understand is just how many people are out there that are willing to give their time and help. know, I see it all the time. The problem is we're just a little reluctant to ask sometimes. But if people see you being eager, seeing you want to understand

that I think the majority of people at your level, at director level, any kind of senior management are keen to help.

Speaker 1 (08:24)
I think for me it's one of the greatest privileges you have in your career, in my opinion, is to help educate and help other people realise their potential. And I think whatever role you're in, whatever job you're fulfilling, I think you have the ability to do that. I don't think that's reserved purely for people in a senior position. Absolutely. I think today lots of people we employ, I don't have the skills and capability or expertise to do the job that they do.

I was on a site the other day with a couple of our staff and it was great to learn from them on what they're doing, the issues that they face when they're out on site ⁓ and carrying out a job that I just don't have the capability to do and to kind of learn from them. So I think it never ends for me. think there's always that ability. But I think helping other people, sharing your knowledge and expertise for me is the greatest privilege of every role I've ever had.

Speaker 2 (09:20)
Yeah, I completely agree with you. And I think, you know, it's a responsibility as well. And I get frustrated when people don't exercise that responsibility because the world is just changing too fast. You I think you owning, I just don't know how they do it is really, is a really important part of that. We've got to be prepared to accept that we just will never know everything. But what we can do is ask better questions, can't we?

Speaker 1 (09:44)
Completely.

Speaker 2 (09:44)
continue that learning.

So you kind of touched on it, but I'd really like to go back when you said that you faced some prejudice fairly early on in your career when you started going up the ranks. Could you tell me a little bit more about that?

Speaker 1 (09:56)
Yeah, so I moved into my first, I mean, I was, I was probably okay as an engineer, but I wasn't, I wasn't brilliant. It was, it was never something I would make a career out of. was a data and telecommunications engineer. So lots of, physical work around cabling, splicing fibers, connecting, connecting people to the, to the kind of national network. my passion always laid in making things better. And

After four years of the apprenticeship, I resigned the day after I passed out as an apprentice. My, mentor and boss at the time had left. gone to join one of the cable operator companies, which had started up in that time and asked me to go and join him to look after one of the teams. So I was just turned 20, moving into my first management role. my first job effectively was to run a team of 250 people.

on a six day rotation on three eight hour shifts. We're completely flood wiring during the summer, Salford University campus, every lecture theater, every student bedroom had to have a telephone point, a network point and a TV point. So we have 62,000 points to wire in six months on a six day.

three shift rotations. That was my first job in management, which...

Speaker 2 (11:16)
bit of a rude awakening wasn't it?

Speaker 1 (11:19)
kind of taught me a lot. Taught me a lot, I have to say. But I think that the prejudice, the biggest prejudice I've ever found and still even to this day, people say, you know, which university did you go to? And I still think there is an assumption for people who may be in a certain role or have reached a certain level. Well, they must have been educated to a certain standard and it's almost an expectation. It's not a

you do you have a degree? It's which university did you go to? And I'll often say, well, I didn't go to college, I didn't go to university. And you get these very strange looks and some people say, well done you then, because you've done all right, haven't you? I'm sure I would have benefited from more of an academic mindset and applying myself, but I don't feel at any point

my career has been impacted or I've been held back as a result of not having it and you know I kind of embrace everyone's journey of going through an academic route or not but I think that the biggest prejudice for me is my complete lack of qualifications which I for some are perceived as as important.

Speaker 2 (12:26)
How did you deal with that at the time? Imagine now it's not a problem for you.

Speaker 1 (12:29)
I

It's

not because, you know, I guess the, you know, I'd like to think my career and the achievements kind of speak more than maybe a what would have been an incredibly average degree qualification. think at the time. I think at the time that coupled with why should I take instruction from you? You're 20. I'm 32. I've done this job for 10 years. Who are you to tell me what to do?

Speaker 2 (12:45)
real you are about it.

Speaker 1 (12:58)
I think really, really affected my self-confidence, really affected my belief. And I think actually forced me to work harder, but in a bad way by compromising myself and I had some real pretty serious health issues as a direct consequence and result of stress at the time, because I had no boundaries. I think looking back on it, the way I dealt with a perceived

"you're too young", " don't have the qualifications", was just to work harder, to do more hours than anybody else, to take on more than anybody else and almost try and prove what I might be lacking I can make up in other ways. that caused some, like I say, some fairly significant health issues. And at that time, I think I was just out to prove myself to others as opposed to...

maybe recognize that kind of feedback was not something I needed to deal with.

Speaker 2 (13:57)
That's really interesting. I boundaries are such an important thing to understand, aren't they? Because in our enthusiasm to do a great job, we'll put more of ourselves into it. But like you say, it can have consequences that are actually very severe. And when you think about some of the challenges that we've got in the workplace at the moment, I think it is really important that people understand.

how to navigate that feedback. So looking back on it with the eyes of experience, what would you have done differently at that time?

Speaker 1 (14:30)
I think it's really hard to know if I'm honest Caroline because I think at the time, you know, I didn't have experience in role to lean back on. I didn't have necessarily people around me to guide or mentor or what I needed at that time was someone to protect me from what I was doing to myself. All I would say though is it is now the greatest source of power for me. It is my greatest strength because having been

in quite a dark place and not wanting to get into too much personal details. But I have medication today from what affects me was a stress-related illness at the time. And I will take pills for rest of my life as a result of it. It is the thing which now powers me. It is the thing when I look back and I think, I'm never going there again. And I know the signs, I know the buildup. I've got very clear boundaries. I try and manage that with my team and everyone who works in our organization. So...

Speaker 2 (15:12)
Okay.

Speaker 1 (15:27)
Looking back, I would never wanted to have changed it because I learned so much about me, my capability, the impact of stepping beyond my physical limits. And although probably at the time hadn't realized probably my mental health limits as well. Now it is the thing which has guided me and has given me the greatest strength of my entire career. And I think I truly believe if I hadn't have been in that place.

I don't think I would have achieved what I've achieved.

Speaker 2 (15:56)
Okay, that's really interesting. And Paul, thank you for sharing that with me, because I think it's a very honest view. And I think it's a view that people that people need to hear. And for me, I've taken a couple of things away from that. one, you said you needed to be protected. So I would imagine if you're doing Salford University, 62,000 points that need to be wired up in a very short space of time, there ain't nobody there, there just isn't anybody there. So there's something about the stepping stones that we take into our roles, isn't

the things that potentially we can do to protect ourselves and grow in a way that is commensurate with our abilities at the time. But hey, actually, sometimes risks are great and it's nice to do. It's just something to think about. And I think there's also this thing about find those people.

in your life early on that are there to protect you. They may be more experienced. They may have gone through things. It doesn't necessarily need to be somebody in that company. It can be anybody. Is there just to challenge you that you you trust enough to do that? I that's another really important thing. But yeah, you know, don't always play safe if you've got some other structures in place. I think, like you say, it can be a superpower. helps you understand.

what you actually are really capable of because we are capable of so much more than we really believe, aren't we?

Speaker 1 (17:20)
We'd spoke previously, Caroline, about kind of comfort zones and pushing, and that whole kind of adage. I I crave feeling uncomfortable. That's what I absolutely love. I love being in a situation where I'm uncomfortable, whatever scenario that might be. Because I think you learn about actually where your comfort zone truly is. I think people

will feel comfortable, stay where they are, not necessarily want to push through the fear of failure or a lack of self-belief or confidence or not feeling protected in an environment where they might make mistakes. And I, like I say, I crave wanting that feeling of being the least knowledgeable person in the room or being in an uncomfortable situation knowing.

I've got plenty of experiences now as you get to my age to kind of lean on to manage my situation that I'm in at that point. And I find myself, professionally now finding less and less of those opportunities to be uncomfortable and start to push myself more at a personal level into that space instead, which is... Have you done bungee Not done bungee jumping, no. No, you have just caught me off...

Speaker 2 (18:25)
didn't finish jumping yet.

Speaker 1 (18:31)
literally just off the back of a 28-hour fast which I've just broke so for things like fasting, physical exercise which I've gone all into recently I think that feeling of comfortable is the feeling that I crave and I think that's been I guess probably a bit of a headline through my entire career is when I get comfortable I need to move on and do something different

Speaker 2 (18:55)
But I think, I mean, I guess it's quite interesting, isn't it? Because I think that the culture that you've developed at Agena is really important. It is about continuous growth. But there's that fine balance, isn't there? You you want people to push themselves and as a business, you're really pushing forward. But, what happens with people that are less comfortable with being uncomfortable? You know, how do you respond to them?

Speaker 1 (19:19)
And I think it comes back to that earlier point of, think you have to protect those people in that situation. You have to encourage them to experience what that feels like and reach a point where they then have the self belief, nothing bad happens when I'm in that place. one of the things we do in a Agena which I'm incredibly proud of is our Bright Stars mentoring program. So we will.

mentor a number of people every single year in the business and it's about their personal journey. We've had, I can think of two people who have been through that program, finished the program and resigned. Because actually what they realized, what they truly wanted to go and fulfill, they'd always shied away from and they'd settled for working in a role that was never truly what they wanted to do. And actually what the mentoring program gave them was

that confidence, that self-belief, that desire to now go and truly fulfill what their ambitions were.

Speaker 2 (20:17)
didn't

kind of see that as a badge of pride actually.

Speaker 1 (20:20)
Yeah, we lost them from our organization. They were both, you know, real assets to the business. But the fact we've played a part in them fulfilling their ambition and that, you when we spoke to them both since they've left and they both could not be happier. ⁓ It's brilliant. I think that's, you know, part of your responsibilities as an employer is not just to trap people within your business. It's allow people to flourish and realize their potential. And sometimes that's not in your employment. But I think you have to...

You have to build a culture where people are comfortable to push themselves. They are happy to be vulnerable and be in situations which they're uncomfortable and you've got to be there to catch them and protect them and to encourage them to go and do it again. And I think that's what I like to think we've created in Agena is that culture which at its heart is a safe place to push yourself.

Caroline Esterson (21:25)
So that's the end of the first part of the interview with Paul. What did you take from that? What would be your reflections? I'd like you to have a think about how Paul handled things like his imposter syndrome and the prejudice that he felt at a very early stage in his career. What could you take from his experience that might help you? And I think for me, one of the things that I really appreciated in the way Paul shared his story. ⁓

was how he reflected and learned through both the good and the bad experiences. He's not chucked one experience away as being invalid. He even said that some of those bad experiences have given him his superpower now. What do you think your superpower is? And how can you maximize its value in what you do? Have a think about this as you listen to part two of Paul's story coming up next.

So thank you for listening to the Little Moves Big Careers podcast. Please do rate and follow us on your favourite podcast platform. And of course, please share this episode with anyone you think might value listening to Paul's story. And most importantly, remember to make your move, even if it's tiny, especially if it's tiny.