Episode 14: Paul Dawson's career Part 2 - The Path to Leadership Success

Join us for Part 2 of this insightful conversation with Paul Dawson, CEO if Agena Group, in which he shares insights on transitioning from corporate to private equity, delivering public sector services, and the value of understanding your role in the workplace. He emphasises the importance of being comfortable with discomfort and provides practical advice for personal and professional growth.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• Leadership Insights: Explore Paul's approach to personal and team leadership, focusing on creating a culture of continuous growth and empowerment. 
• Career Transitions: Learn about Paul's move from corporate to private equity, highlighting the significance of knowing when to embrace change. 
• The Three P's Framework: Paul shares his guiding principle of prioritising people, product, and profit in decision-making.
• Culture is crucial in organisations.
• Focus on the value of the service provided

Connect with Caroline here

Connect with Paul here

Agena Group website

CALL TO ACTION

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Stuck, simmering, or onto something juicy? I want to hear it. Drop me a line at caroline@inspireyourgenius.com - I read them all.

Chapters

• 0:00 Transitioning to Capita and new challenges
• 2:57 Navigating Public Sector Challenges
• 10:47 Transitioning from Corporate Life to Private Equity
• 15:29 Understanding Culture in Business
• 20:04 Key Skills for Career Navigation
• 25:18 Embracing Discomfort for Growth

Transcript

Caroline Esterson (00:00)
Okay, so welcome back to part two of Paul Dawson's career story, in which we're gonna dig into leadership lessons on two levels. Firstly, personal leadership and how can you become the best that you can be, but also leadership in the other sense of the word, in the way that you lead teams and organizations. My name is Caroline Esterson, your host, and welcome to Little Moves Big Careers.

Speaker 2 (00:47)
moving forward, know, after Salford, how long were you with that company for?

Speaker 1 (00:53)
I left there in 2002, so I was there a total of 14 years.

Speaker 2 (01:00)
Okay, and then you went on to Capita after that.

Speaker 1 (01:03)
And then, yeah, so I got made redundant. At that point, I'd progressed through project management, program management, change management. I was then in a role of organizational design and organizational efficiency. And it was a time when Mercury Communications, Cabin Wireless Communications were coming together. Cash rich business, but lacked a little bit of strategy and direction.

So I was part of a small team of people who effectively were looking at the entire UK operations, say, is what we do core. And if it isn't, do we stop it, sell it or outsource it? We'd 18 months in that role and then I got a phone call one morning saying, you need to be on a call with someone in the US. And then I was told on that call as I was at risk of redundancy, I was met at the door, escorted to my desk, cleared my desk and never returned to the office.

It was, you know, after 14, 15 years service, within 30 minutes, I've been told there is no role and you're now not welcome in the office. Sat at home, it was that...

Speaker 2 (02:05)
There

is something about the way that we treat people. Those situations.

Speaker 1 (02:09)
Yeah, I've unfortunately been the other side of having to make, you know, headcount reductions and that taught me a lot about how not to do it. Yeah, absolutely. At the time we just moved house, my first daughter had just been born and I was now facing unemployment. So I spent six months looking for a role and found that incredibly challenging. Someone who wants to be busy and loves to be busy to go from

Leaving school working and then not working immediately kind of that day was a really hard time with all the financial pressures that come with you know new house child starts in a family and Then I saw this job in the Sunday Times. I'd probably I think I must be 300 applications in at this point for jobs. I'd made it my commitment to apply for at least 10 jobs a day

And at that time you still had to go and physically get the job section in the newspaper. It wasn't quite as convenient as it is these days. And it became my job to apply and find a job. then, applied to, as you say, applied to Capital for a change manager position and then spent the following 19 years there.

Speaker 2 (03:15)
And during that time with Capita, you were responsible for leading public sector parts of the business, weren't you? Because there's an outsourcing company.

you're outsourced to look after those businesses. And I think that would be really interesting cause some quite interesting dilemmas actually between sort of the needs of a profit driven business and actually being in situ in public sector. Is there anything that is useful to draw out on that?

Speaker 1 (03:47)
Yeah, you're right. I did, I carried out a number of roles in Capita predominantly was looking after our large outsourced public sector contracts. So that started with the Criminal Records Bureau, now known as the Disclosure and Bar and Service. And I joined in the April of the summer of the Ian Huntley and Maxine Carr murders of Holly and Jessica down in Soham. So...

The Criminal Records Bureau at that point then went completely through complete policy change. Nobody that year could start school in the summer of 2002 unless teachers had been through a CRB check. So when summer term opened up in September, there was just under 3,000 schools couldn't open because they didn't have sufficient people with CRB checks. That Christmas we were blamed for cancelling

Christmas because at the time if you were dressing up as Santa Claus in a grotto in a department store you couldn't invite kids and sit on your knees give them a present unless you had a CRB check so we had a hundred father Christmases who couldn't do their duties at Christmas so we yeah we were in a

Speaker 2 (04:55)
but I'm giggling because I just can't imagine being that person who's responsible for cancelling Christmas in some particular way. Good job you're feeling un comfortable, Paul, that's all I can say.

Speaker 1 (05:07)
And I think, you know, so if I think about, you know, I went on to run all of the schemes in London for Transport for London, so the congestion charging schemes, the low emission zones. I managed the independent, personal independent payments, so the PIP assessments for people with disabilities for DWP. And then also electronic monitoring for the MOJ with people on early release from prison under license and home curfew. So I think all of those for me were about

essentially managing someone's entitlement to something, whether that's an entitlement to see out the rest of their prison service at home, whether it's entitlement to work with children or vulnerable adults, or it's entitlement to enter an emissions-based charging zone ⁓ with a high or low-polluting vehicle. And I think you have to focus on the service that you're providing. I think there's always a dynamic between...

a public service for which so many are dependent on that has been outsourced to a commercially motivated organization. But the contract deals with that. The contract deals with allowable profits. That commercial arrangement has been set up to provide expertise into the public sector and to allow that private sector organization to financially gain from that service. So I think you have to...

You have to almost rely on the contracts to deal with those aspects and just embed yourself as part of the service. I felt my time in the Criminal Records Bureau subsequent to the Disclosure and Barring Service, I felt like I worked for the Home Office because I was so consumed by what we were doing and the importance of that service, personally driven to never allow the situation that occurred in Soham in 2002 to ever appear again.

⁓ gives you such great motivation, I guess the, the attachment I had to some of those services, ⁓ you know, ensuring people with disabilities are receiving help and payments to fulfill full, very basic needs of their job or helping rehabilitate offenders who maybe have served some time and we're trying to rehabilitate them in society. You know, an absolute privilege to be part of those services, irrespective of, of how you're employed. I think you just have to be respectful to.

your employer as a private sector organization, you're there to deliver the service to achieve what's been asked of you in your contract. And with that comes all the profit targets and all the commercial aspects that you need to protect against. But I think it's how you do it. You know, I've, I've never been prouder than being part of delivering the CRB and the Disclosure Bar and Service and preventing some of the people who were trying to gain access to children, vulnerable adults.

Absolutely. And facilitating those people who, you know, do wonderful things with those cohorts of people to help them in their lives. So, yeah, I think you've almost just got to trust that the contract provides the protection between the two organizations. Your job is to deliver a good service. And if you're delivering a good service, you're always standing behind the execution of that from a public sector perspective. And you're focusing on quality and the service that you deliver.

I think some of those services wouldn't have happened without private sector expertise. And to be part of that for me has just been a, it's a period of my career I look back on really fondly. It's privilege to be part of.

Speaker 2 (08:34)
Brilliant. And I love the way that you talked about that Paul, because I think for me, I see so many people just going through their job, their jobs are busy. Everybody's jobs are really busy and they're getting wrapped up in to-do lists and this is what I have to do and I'm just getting on and it's a cycle tick, tick, tick, tick, tick. I think when you have the ability to be able to step back and think, why am I doing this? What value am I offering? What difference am I giving? That does give you an extra special drive, doesn't it?

think that's come out really strongly and what you've been describing Paul so I really appreciate that.

Speaker 1 (09:09)
have to love what you do Caroline, you I think you have to, whatever business I've ever run, whatever service I've ever provided, I've always wanted to intimately understand, how we deliver the service, the benefit we provide and who are we serving? what is this? What is the point of this service that we deliver? What are the individuals who are receiving it? How can we make that the best it possibly can be? And I think...

I love consuming myself by the service that we deliver. And if you don't love the service you deliver, then...

Speaker 2 (09:41)
And I think that's a really interesting point because we often talk about this in the workshops that we run, because I also agree, you have to love what you do. And I think, let's be real, 80 % of your job is probably drudge for any job. A really high proportion is just drudge that you just have to get through. But I think what I try and get people to do is focus on

What can you love about your job rather than loving your job? What can you love about it? So as an example, I can remember working for a company that was doing debt collection for utilities. And ⁓ they were really, really struggling to set up sensible payment arrangements. And so I just said to them, I want you to imagine you're talking to your nana.

or your brother or your sister or your auntie, what would you want to do? How would you want to make that right for them? Because after all, setting up sensible payment arrangement is great for the business because you're getting the money in, but it's also sensible for the customer as well. And it's showing compassion and empathy for the customer. That one thing just changed it. So I think, you know, in any industry, whatever you're in, you can find something that you love about your job, something that you find is valuable. I think that's really important too.

Speaker 1 (11:00)
Yeah, I say many times, Caroline, think loving what you do is important. Loving how you do it for me is is most important. You know, I love our mentoring programs. I love our absolute obsession with internal mobility for promotion. The fact that we will look to always employ and promote internally before bringing external talent to the business. And sometimes you need to. Those are the things I love about my job. I mean, I do happen to quite.

love parking as well as a service which I know is a little bit sad but the way we do it I think the way we do it and then you know those activities which aren't actually involved in the products we provide but more the way we do it I think ⁓ is really important.

Speaker 2 (11:33)
controversial I think Paul.

to anybody that's watching to have a look at what Agena does because it is really quite phenomenal some of the things that they're involved in so please do go and check it out. from Capita, what was your next move? Was that to Agena?

Speaker 1 (12:03)
Yeah, so Capita, we'd, Capita had evolved massively organization, you know, had gone from a incredibly successful FTSE 100, you know, very entrepreneurial business, had grown and scaled and then had been through some leadership changes. You know, the original people running Capita had all moved on, kind of 20, 22 years post.

their commencement and it turned much more into a very corporate business and I think a model which didn't really suit me. I'd made a large number of acquisitions during my time at Capita who had led the acquisition of a number of businesses and got the opportunity with my ex-chief exec from Capita and current chairman to step into the world of private equity. We had

many for many, years had acquired businesses too from private equity, and had seen people build and create a vision of the business that they wanted to. And then it looked, to seek investments along that journey. And I think I was ready where I felt I'd done everything I wanted to achieve in the corporate world. I'd reached the level.

that I was comfortable with. never wanted to be someone who was disconnected from the service I provided. I was operating at a divisional level. I was sat across multiple businesses. And for me, I was close enough to the customer and the staff and the service, but was, I guess, in a position where I had enough autonomy for me to execute with some freedom. As that autonomy and that freedom was declining, I just couldn't see my...

my continued stay in that role. And I, I wanted talking about feeling comfortable. I never worked for anything other than a corporate and stepped into the world of private equity. ⁓ we agreed with a private equity investor to make our first acquisition in May, 2019. And that started the formation of the organization that today is known as the agena group. And I guess for me, it was the belief of

We have a vision of a business we want to create. We can do that through acquisition and organically. And it was probably the first real time where I felt it was mine to control. I had the plan. It was all on my shoulders to execute. Someone believed in me and backed me financially. And I guess here we are today. You know, we've created a business I'm incredibly proud of. I've loved the...

the freedom to operate and I've absolutely adored the accountability and consequence of failure. Those things have sat very comfortable with me and I love the extremes of the dynamics that are playing out.

Speaker 2 (14:54)
And you've been upset at your perfect blueprint, aren't you, for an organization really, just as you see it.

Speaker 1 (15:00)
Yeah, it's interesting because obviously as you acquire businesses, you acquire a culture of that business and how do you transform those businesses into what you're trying to create? But also, you know, how important is your evaluation of the culture of a business as part of your assessment of an acquisition? And look, we've walked away from a number of acquisitions because everything else was perfect. You know, their customers, their financial performance.

their place in the market, but the culture was just off. The culture just didn't suit. And I just think, if that's one of your driving motivations, it has to be a really important condition. And we've consciously chose not to acquire businesses because culturally they just don't fit. And I see people too often thinking, we'll just change the culture. It's really hard as...

you know better than me, Caroline, it's really hard to go into a business and say, well, let's just change the culture, let's behave this way to people who have grown up and have built that organization over many years. So I think culture is important. It's been a set of conscious choices around our values, the culture that we build, the people that we employ, but most importantly, how we live those values every day. think, you know, culture and values for many is something you have in a...

nice document that sits on a shelf for us. It's something we look to try and live every day.

Speaker 2 (16:28)
Absolutely. for me, that transition point, how do you know when it's time to move on? And I think that you know when it's time to move on when you know yourself and your needs. And so I think there's a really important lesson to really spend time reflecting and understanding what it is that's important to you in the work that you do.

And the other bit that you talked about then was culture. And in the same way that you're making conscious decisions about your acquisitions and whether you're going to go for them or not because of the culture. When you know yourself, you know what kind of culture you're going to operate best in. So it helps you because I always think that going for a new job is...

It's a bit like a marriage in a way, isn't it? It is a partnership. if it's going to be really effective, you've got to treat it as a partnership. It's not one is in a more powerful position than the other. At interview, that's your opportunity to really understand. And again, it comes back to know yourself, know what is really, really important to you and how you like to operate and ask questions about that. So that just in the same way you're making acquisition decisions.

they're making job decisions about whether it's right for them not.

Speaker 1 (17:50)
Absolutely.

And I think to the point of, know, when do you know it's time to change? I've always felt, if I think about the transition I've been through most recently from corporate to private equity, looking back, that move was probably two years too late. Maybe three years too late. I think I'd settled in an environment where I was comfortable. I'd been there for...

Speaker 2 (18:08)
Okay.

Speaker 1 (18:17)
In the end, I was up there for 18, 19 years.

Speaker 2 (18:20)
creeps

up on you, don't you? You kind of almost don't, you don't realise that it's happened and you've got chickens during that time, you know, I mean, obviously the chickens would have been a big distraction.

Speaker 1 (18:30)
That's a whole podcast on its own I think Caroline, let's go through all of my famous chicken stats. I think that was a time when I look back.

Not that I let myself down, I think that would be too self-critical, but I was comfortable. know, financially I was stable, family was settled, my kids were growing up. I was in a role that I enjoyed, but wasn't particularly challenged. I was allowing the organization around me to take back more more central control. And I was resisting it and I was, you know, being a bit difficult on certain things. But I never properly stood up and said,

I thought this isn't where I want to be. think it took a lot for me then wanting to remove myself from that environment. And I think literally within a couple of months, I was like, I should have done this years ago. And I think for so many people, that's the case. You make that step after so much thought, so much, you know, almost kind of anguish at the time of you focus more on what you're walking away from than rather than what you're going to gain. I think once you make that step, you think,

What was I thinking? And I do think there is a real challenge for people to overcome about not focusing on what you're losing, but focus on the potential and the opportunity of what you can gain. And I think too many decisions are made based on the risk of what I'll lose. And I think there's a real mindset shift to focus on the opportunity of what you might gain.

Speaker 2 (20:06)
It really is. And you know what? I'm going to do a little bonus podcast about that because I think it is such an important point, Paul, and it's easily missed. So thank you for it. Thank you for highlighting it. I think I'll be keeping you on for too long if we do it now. But yeah, absolutely. There's a safety, there? There's a safety and a comfort. We know the surroundings and the environment, and that can hold us in place.

It's how do you make that shift? So yeah, we should go into that another time. Very conscious of your time. I'm having a wonderful conversation, but I know that you've got other things that you want to get on. So I've got a couple of quickfire things that I would like to just check with you. So what do you think the most crucial skills are that you developed early on that have really helped you navigate your career?

Speaker 1 (20:59)
think my ability to stay calm has served me so well through all of the challenges I've faced. think keeping a level head, staying calm, not making emotional decisions is one of the most important skills. I think a link to that is a conscious choice of which behavior you bring to your role. ⁓

Speaker 2 (21:22)
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (21:24)
It's very rare I will... I never get angry, I don't swear, I don't shout, I don't bang the table. But people will know when I'm disappointed. Yes. And it will be a very conscious choice when I choose that behaviour. it has the maximum effect.

Speaker 2 (21:39)
It's that daddy thing, it's just like, I'm very disappointed in you. Yeah, no, I can imagine that. And I think it's really interesting because I think that a lot of people, they react very quickly, don't they? And it's how do you give yourself that pause so that you can respond productively to a situation that is arising. So I really like that. think that ability to be calm and level-headed is so important.

Speaker 1 (22:06)
Sometimes like say you do just need some time, you know, they'll be often when on the face of it It feels like we've got a Material problem that we're facing and people are panicking and I'll just say let's all just go for a walk. Yeah, let's just take 30 minutes let's just Dial down the emotion. Let's come back and let's think constructively about what we do next and it's amazing

how much better things feel in 30 minutes after you've gone for a little walk. You can think clearly, more logically.

Speaker 2 (22:35)
That

is completely what I do. Go for a walk, drink a glass of water, come back and we'll sort it out. I say that to the kids, to anybody who's being emotional about things. And it does, it makes the world a difference, it's crazy.

Did you get any great advice that has guided you or a great person that you kind of go, what would they do? Did you have that at any point in your career?

Speaker 1 (23:00)
Yeah, I think there's a number of people I will think back to. There's a guy called Andy who was the first person I got attached to as an apprentice. And just the way that he conducted himself, he held himself, I always held in real high regard. I still think, you know, still I feel like he had a material effect on the way that I behave. I think probably the best piece of advice is ⁓ a very simple model called the three P's.

which I must have learnt 20 years ago but I can't think of a day which goes by where I don't use it.

Speaker 2 (23:36)
Really? So what are the three P's?

Speaker 1 (23:40)
So the three P's are people, product, profit by default.

And I think if you make every decision with that mindset, you know, what does this mean to our people? How does this affect our employees or the people that we're serving with what we're providing? Providing the best products, the most competitive product, the most disruptive product in your markets. You don't need to worry about profit. It will follow. And I have tried reorganizing in every possible combination those three P's.

Speaker 2 (24:14)
That's your engineering mindset, isn't it? You want to find the fault.

Speaker 1 (24:14)
This doesn't work.

Yeah, it

just doesn't work. You know, you become, if you become obsessive about driving profitability, you won't take the people with you. You will not be delivering the best service because you'll be thinking of ways of cutting costs or increasing price. I, everything I do, every decision we make is based on that model of the three Ps

Speaker 2 (24:44)
I love the simplicity of it. It just elevates you beyond the metrics. The metrics are easy, aren't they, to be looking at? You almost justify your existence by focusing on those, but the great leaders will elevate beyond that. Fab. And is that the advice that you would give as well, or is there something else that you would give?

Speaker 1 (25:07)
I think the greatest advice I would give is just get really comfortable being uncomfortable. Because you'll never really understand your true capability until you understand where your boundaries really are. And in order to understand those boundaries, you've got to get uncomfortable. You've got to put yourself in situations where you're the least knowledgeable person in the room.

you have no expertise or no right to be in that environment. Most of my career has come through me operating way outside of my remit because I felt like I either wanted to learn or I could help. And then I'd almost assume responsibility and then the reward and the job would come after. I think you have to chase, you have to chase that real understanding.

of where your capability and where your potential sits and trust everything else job titles, salaries, remuneration, promotions will follow. ⁓

Speaker 2 (26:06)
version

of the three P's in an individual way isn't it?

Speaker 1 (26:09)
Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, just live your life being uncomfortable and you'll have a great time would be my ⁓ advice.

Speaker 2 (26:17)
But on that note, Paul, thank you so much. think there are some complete gems in that story of yours. Really appreciate you taking the time and spelling out so clearly the things that are important to you. I think that there's a lot that people will take from that, so I really appreciate your time.

Speaker 1 (26:36)
No, it's been a pleasure, Caroline. just well, one, a massive thanks for inviting me on. It's as always, we've I've had a fabulous conversation with you it's it's great to be forced to reflect because you don't often think back on yourself. But good luck with the good luck with the series. ⁓ Good luck with the book and look forward to catching up soon.

Caroline Esterson (27:03)
So it's been a really meaty week here, hasn't it? Listening to Paul Story. You can connect with Paul on LinkedIn. His details are in the show notes and I've also added a link to Agena's website in case you're interested in finding out more about what they do and the career opportunities they have to offer. I don't know about you, but I really did think Paul Story was fascinating. It was one of grit and resilience, but also deep purpose and certainly there were many valuable lessons there too.

I reckon this is one to bookmark and come back to when you need a burst of inspiration. So in closing, I asked two things of you. Please do review the show on your favourite podcast platform. It really helps our messages reach a wider audience who might value what we share and share it with anybody in your network you think would be interested in the ideas. As always, remember to make your move, even if it's tiny.

especially if it's tiny. Until next week.