What's up everybody and welcome to Mr. Pick Me and the Man Hater, a term lovingly given to my co host and I by a troll on the internet for having the audacity. to think that women are people. Unfortunately, Reagan, the man hater who doesn't actually hate men, couldn't make it this week. So we have a fill in man hater who also doesn't actually hate men. Joining me for this week's podcast, Dr. Roxanne Feleg, also known as Naya Papaya online is a science communicator. And social psychologist who does amazing work on social media and even more amazing work in the real world. And while Reagan wasn't able to join us for this, Dr. Naya has been a guest on Reagan's F the Nice Guy podcast on multiple occasions. So be sure to check that out, but only after you check out. Our awesome interview today. You want more advice? Do it out gladly. You want bad advice, man. I'll give it out gladly. I got some good advice for you. No you don't. I know you don't. I got some good advice for you. No, you don't. I'm here today with one of my favorite creators online. I, uh. I don't remember how I found your page. I mean, it makes sense why you would show up my algorithm just because, uh, we talk about similar issues from different perspectives, obviously. Um, but I'm here with Dr. Naya Papaya, Dr. Feleg. We can have you introduce yourself however, uh, you would like to, but, um, Dr. Naya just finished her PhD and, and has, is, is, has this prestigious, amazing title, well deserved title, doing amazing work, which we're going to talk about today. Um, how you doing? How you doing? I'm I'm doing, you know, the last six years of PhD are like leaving my body. Um, and I'm really excited to be here. I'm sad that Reagan isn't here because I've been on F's a nice guy twice. So if we have some repeat listeners, maybe they're familiar with me. But, um, yeah, I'm super excited to be here and to talk about all things, social psychology and research. And I'm excited. We'll say this Reagan normally keeps everything grounded and on track and I just kind of Go all over the place. So hopefully that'll we can do it. We can keep we can balance each other out. Right? Yeah, I can be I can be Reagan's stand in today. Well, can real quick just so everyone knows your like what what exactly your research is. Can you give me a quick like elevator talk of what you do? Yeah. I'll orient everyone. So my PhD is in social psychology and just, so we're all on the same page. Psychology has several different sub disciplines. So social psychology is a non clinical sub discipline. I don't work directly with clients or patients. I do research and mainly research on what would be considered, you know, non abnormal. Things. So clinical psych kind of focuses on the abnormal. I focus on the everyday. Um, and my specific research focus is related to gender stereotypes and gender prejudice. And I look at how things like sexism and the sexualization and objectification of women impact women's everyday lives and how they think about themselves. The run down. How did you fall into that? Was that your, were you already into that? I mean, obviously you might've heard of it in general, but as a, as a research focus, how did that journey? Go. It was so random and people ask me about this all the time. And I think it really was something where I was, I was led to it because of my personal interest and things related to gender equity and feminism. And I always, I mean, thinking back even to middle and high school, I was like the obnoxious like 12 year old feminist who would like pick fights in my classes with guys who said stupid shitty things. Um, but. I was always kind of drawn to psychology. You know, I took AP psych in high school. Thought it was cool. I think a lot of people are drawn to psych because it explains the things that we experience, right? Like it's, it's easy to relate to. So I was drawn to psych. I started, um, in undergrad at New College of Florida, which maybe you've heard about lately in the news. It is the. The liberal arts college in Florida that Ron DeSantis is trying to like turn into his conservative little safe haven. So I started at New College, but I transferred and I went to school in Portland, Oregon, and I transferred halfway through my first year, which meant that all the classes that I wanted to take had already been registered for. So I kind of got thrown into these random psych classes that I wouldn't have otherwise applied or, you know, tried to register for or been interested in. And I also had to take, I didn't have to take, but I ended up taking a lot of sociology classes because they were open. And so I started taking like really research oriented psych classes, like cognitive psych and abnormal psych, and then some sociology classes. And I loved the content in sociology and talking about kind of gender roles and gendered expectations in society. And, and kind of social structures, but I really liked learning about research. And so I was kind of like, huh, what, like, is there a world that blends these two things? And through trial and error, I started working in some research labs. First, I worked in a developmental psych research lab where I was. Watching the most mundane videos of, like, toddlers speaking, but because they're toddlers, they don't really speak, they just mumble. And I had to, like, code the types of sounds that they were making. And I was like, no, no, no, this is not for me. Developmental, not it. Can't, can't work with people who can't speak yet. And then I had a really great opportunity working in a cognitive neuroscience lab, which was like, when you think of like science and research, like this is what you think of. We're putting electrodes on people's heads. We're looking at their brainwaves. Like we're doing like the hard science. And it was really fun. I loved being in the lab, but I didn't really love the work that I was doing. And so I was still kind of like, well, I don't know. Is there, Is there a type of psych that fits what I like? And then my last semester, I took an advanced social psych class where we learned all about stereotypes and prejudice and discrimination and intergroup bias, and I was like, whoa, that is, that is what I want to do. It's like kind of sociological, but more personal, like person level rather than group level. And it's based in science and Scientific method. And so having taken only one social psych class, I applied to social psych PhD programs. Um, and I had always been really drawn to issues of like gender and kind of feminism and gender equity stuff. So I specifically, you know, looked for Faculty mentors who were doing work like that and ended up, um, kind of chatting with someone at USF where I ended up going who she was just doing work that was really kind of it resonated with me and, um, We just hit it off and it was the only PhD program that I got into. And so here I am. So it was really like, it was nonlinear. It was kind of random, but it worked out really well. And I can't imagine myself having done anything else. And that's, I think that's important lesson for a lot of people though that are entering college, but so many younger people listen to this, just not to have, you can stumble upon some really cool stuff if you're open to it. I was a liberal studies major I wanted to be a high school teacher. When I, when I entered and I was like that was it I'm going to be a high school, English teacher, and or actually I was, no, that's a lie. Hold on. It's been a long time. Uh, it was, it was middle school at the time I wanted to teach. And then I was like, no, I want to teach high school. So I was an English major. And then I was like, well, I don't like some of the stuff we're studying. I was like, well, maybe I'll be an English creative writing, uh, instructor. And then I was like, Oh, maybe I'll be an actor. And so I got in the theater for a little while. And then I stumbled into comm studies when I realized, cause I was really into gender and, uh, feminist rhetoric and all those kinds of, Similar subjects, aspects of what you talk about, um, but from a communication perspective, um, I don't think people realize also that especially with things like philosophy, psychology, calm, sociology, we study about 70 percent of the same people. Yeah, the same concepts, except they all have different names. We never reference each other. We're doing the same stuff, but like somehow we're not doing it. together. Um, yeah, at USF, our psych building is actually joint with our communication sciences or communication studies, but I still never interact with those people. Right. There's a weird barrier that happens and there's all, I mean, that's, we could go into a lot about academia. Well, you know, one thing here, here's one thing that I think a lot of people can relate to is one thing we were talking about right before we started, um, about, uh, ageism, uh, and I don't say reverse ageism, but it's, it's about looking younger in, in academia. Cause I know, even when I was applying for, before I got a tenure position, uh, I was, I was applying for places. I didn't have a beard. I didn't have any gray hair. And, and it definitely. Even as a man in a very sexist, uh, field of academia was still getting that. Well, you look kind of young. You know, we want, we want that. We want a little bit more established, a little bit more experienced, even though I had the same experience as other people that were there. I looked a bit younger. I looked like a 20 something year old. Um, and, uh, I'd like, so what, what does that experience now that, you know, you you've got your PhD and you're on the job market, what does that experience been like for you? So it's interesting because I with what you can say without getting you in trouble. Yeah. So as someone who studies like perceptions of women, I was already aware of the fact that women are, you know, there's no right age for women. We're either too young or we're too old, whatever. So I'm already kind of like aware of these biases that may be at play while I'm on the job market. Um, and it wasn't until really, I started posting on TikTok that I started noticing that people really misperceived my age. I would get comments all the time of people saying, um, They thought I was 19 or 20, and I'm 28, and that's not, I mean, that's young. 28 is still young, it's not old. Right. But, um, like, there's a difference between someone applying for, you know, a permanent position at an institution where they're telling you that they're ready to begin, like, a lifelong career, and you seeing them as a 19 year old versus you seeing them as, like, almost 30. Like, there's a difference there. You know, I, I don't know how much it played a role, but just in the last couple of weeks I've had, I had someone ID me for a drink, which is fine, but when he took my ID, he was like, oh, I was way off, like I, I really thought you were under 21 and we're gonna pull out a fake ID. And I'm like, bro, I'm ordering a sake. Do you think that a 19 year old is going to order some hot sake for lunch? Like, come on. And then I went to get a tattoo coverup or like an addition. Um, a tattoo artist in the shop was in disbelief that I was Like the same age as her, and I just was thinking about how that may have impacted me in this unsuccessful cycle because I had, I had lots of interviews and then most of them were, you know, so they read my application, they don't see me, and I got lots of hits. I got, I, I think I, I was asked to interview for over 50 percent of the jobs that I applied for, which is a great rate of return on my applications, right? Yeah, that's amazing. Sight unseen, and then it wasn't until I either zoomed or went in person that I'm just like ghosted. Um, and certainly there could be other factors, but I can't help but think that people seeing me and being like, Oh, a child, um, like that that plays a role. And I don't know, I just, I keep thinking about like, I'm, I'm 28. Am I not what a 28 year old woman looks like? I think I am. I think people just have such a warped perception of women, whether it be from like, advertising that, you know, heavily changes our appearance and smooths our skin and whatever, and makes older women look younger, or this, like, anti aging rhetoric where, like, we think that women who are 35 are, like, decrepit. But like, they're not. They look young sometimes. Like, most of the time they still look young and youthful. Or like, actors that are in their 30s playing 18 year olds in high school. I don't know. There's probably so many things that contribute to this. But it sucks when it's potentially a reason why I don't have a job now. Right. And it is, there's this weird, and all of this stuff is unspoken, right? And that's, that's the, even as, as progressive as our fields claim to be, right? That, that doesn't mean there's not still this bias that is, that is unspoken, that is unseen, that is still influencing these things. And even on, like, people aren't walking around thinking, Oh, that woman looks young, so I'm not going to hire her. A lot of this is She doesn't deserve to be here yet. Oh, a lot of this is implicit. You might not even realize that you're making those judgments about someone, but Yeah. And even explicitly, I think you, you can hear a lot of talking where they, they do want to reward people that have put in the work, right. That have done more, that have been around, that have done more, at least in our field, right. Where they, they, the, you, Oh, you're just, you're, you're fresh out of grad school. Let's talk to me in five years after you have suffered like the rest of us, even though you are as deserving, if not more deserving, um, then, then another applicant for the job. Yeah, it's been interesting because, you know, I don't know if you're still on Twitter or X, whatever, but I am because it's a great networking tool for academics. And so it's been interesting to see people who are announcing that they've gotten the positions that I've either applied for or interviewed for, and the majority of them from what I've seen are people who already are assistant professors elsewhere, which, so they're, you know, it's great that I. As still a PhD student competed and was considered, you know, top five in comparison to someone who's already established at university, but also I'm like they have a job. I don't have a job. I think one of us deserves a job more. Um, yeah, I don't know. It's such a mess. It's, it's a weird thing, and they also, it's hard applying for jobs, even, like you mentioned you applied for, uh, very specific places, but even 18, that's a lot, right? Uh, because this is just, that was just tenure track positions, because I did apply for postdocs and I've also applied for industry jobs. So I've probably applied for, I don't know, 70 positions, maybe even it because theoretically Uh, you should be applying for someone that you somewhere you might be forever. Right? And that's what sucks, though, is then you have people that are applying for obviously these positions where they don't actually want and say, that's what you're going up against people with these full time positions that could have gone to somebody that wanted to live and work at that college that wanted to live in that state. And so, as a result, this, the job market just is always. So cutthroat. Um, and, and that's the other part you mentioned finding out on, on Twitter about that. They don't even tell you when you don't get the job. That's one of the worst parts about applying for academia is you just, I don't know. I'll find out eventually. I've been fully ghosted by two of the five that I did final round interviews at. One, I, Got a really generic canned hr email which like at least I got something but yeah I emailed them thanking them for interviewing me, you know Asking them to extend thanks to anyone who is involved in organizing my visit who attended my talk And I never even got a reply to that just the generic do not reply to this email. This is from hr You will not receive a response You didn't get this job and i'm like where It it honestly makes me glad that I didn't get this job Get job offers in some of these places because what a horrific work environment, right? But like, oh, it's brutal It's it's it's I don't i'm sure it exists in the private sector too in many places, but uh, it feels I don't know. It's something about the environment, especially because you're going in, you're usually meeting a panel of people. It feels very personal when you're doing it. And the people interviewing you are also interviewing you, like, do I want to be in the same hallway as this person for the next 40 years? And so it's, so then when they don't respond, it feels almost like a personal attack on you. It also just feels like. It makes everything feel really phony, like it's made me like very skeptical about anything that any of these people say, because every interview that I flew out for, for those, for people listening who aren't familiar, like these academic Interviews are so intense. You have an initial application, which is not just like a resume and a cover letter. It's, uh, a cover letter, which should talk about your research and your teaching and everything. It's your CV. It's your teaching statement, which is usually two to three pages with your teaching philosophy, you know, what you've taught, what you're prepared to teach courses that you want to design, how you, you know, your pedagogical approach, a research statement, which is like two to three pages and lately a. DEI statement, how you're committed to diversity, equity and inclusion in the classroom and in research. So it's a huge amount of work just to apply. And then you have like a 30, 45 minute zoom interview, which usually it's like five or six people interviewing you. And then you do like a two or three day intensive campus visit where you give a teaching demo, a research talk, you meet with deans, you meet with all the faculty, you meet with students, you go to dinner, you go to breakfast, lunch, everything. And they're like, We can't wait for you to join. Like we totally see how you would fit in the department. Uh, we'd love, we love your expertise on this. We feel like the students really liked you because of this and they make it seem like you're the perfect fit. And then they just like, it's like, it's a really toxic academic dating scene, right? Where you, you fall in love, I love the bachelor. Watching the bachelor is my guilty pleasure. And I was just watching the last season and I was watching like. The final episode where it's down to like two people and I'm like, holy shit. I think I like this so much because this is like the academic job market. I feel like one of these contestants where, yeah, you meet the family. You talk about your plans, living together, you look at rings, you do all this shit and then they just leave you on a beach and you have to get home from Mexico. Yeah. You try to, you go in telling yourself, you know, That it's, it's a small chance you'll get this position, right? Especially, you know, I'm only speaking for myself. When I was new on the, on the job market, fresh out of grad school, uh, I knew that I was competing against people that have been, you know, had longer history, had taught more classes, had done more research, et cetera. Um, but it's still, you're still human. And you go there and you're like, Oh, I could, that would be where my office is. And this is where I'll go to lunch. Yeah. They show you all these things. They show you the office space for you and the lab space for you. And they give you a tour of town and talk about, sometimes there's like faculty housing. Like I, I interviewed somewhere in California where it's really expensive to live. So they have faculty housing and like showed me. And I like, uh, just be realistic, be realistic with us. well, and I can say one thing that I, uh, when I was reading kind of the materials about what you do, um, one thing I really value. that you have a focus on that I think academia does not value anywhere nearly enough is that you want to communicate your research to the public. Right. Do you want actual people to hear what you're doing and, and to understand what we do, uh, and it's so, such an undervalued, uh, aspect of academia, um, that people don't know about like the, the, the, I think I remember reading, I don't know if the stats are still the same, but, uh, the, in peer reviewed publications on average, they'll be, uh, read by the person that submitted it. And that's it. Right? The most, most published material literally is read one time, and never again. Yes. And, I don't know, hold on, I'm gonna pull up My stats on ResearchGate. This is maybe my proudest achievement through maybe for the rest of my life because of sharing my research on TikTok, um, and Instagram and everywhere else. Mm-Hmm. um, you know, ResearchGate tracks your reads, right, but just reads on ResearchGate, so it's. It's smaller than how many people have actually read it. My, I have a paper on ResearchGate that has 33, 344 reads, and I get, Notifications almost, probably weekly, that it's the most read paper on ResearchGate. Yeah, that's unbelievable. I feel like people are so disenchanted with, like, uh, virality on social media. Like, 33, 000, that's, no, that's unbelievable. Because that's people who actually went from my videos to The actual paper on ResearchGate, right? Not people who watched a video that I showed them, they actually were like, wow, this is interesting. I want to look at this myself. Um, so yeah, cause the average is like one or two. It's like your committee members and you, and I have 33, 000 and that I think is my proudest accomplishment. I remember getting into, I don't want to say fights, but heavy discourse in grad school, uh, with people that, Like, what are we, what are we doing or what's the next step? How are we going to do this? What are we going to, how do we show this people? What do we do with this? Like to make real change and being looked at, like, what are you talking about? What are you, that doesn't matter. Right. That is, that is not something we should be spending our time on. It's something that I've been grappling with a lot and like grappling with, as I've been on the job market where, you know, I'm, Interviewing at these schools and like thinking about what it would mean for my research and really just kind of being like, okay, like, is, do I want to just, I don't know, do I want to be in an industry like applied position where I'm doing research for someone else, but it's having an impact directly like it's, it's so, it feels disingenuous to me in a way to be like, I'm studying women's experiences and like women's experiences with violence, but All I'm doing with it is publishing a paper and then moving on to the next study and never actually like bringing that paper to like policy makers or like doing anything with it. So I've really been trying to think about how I can translate what I do more to actually have those. Those impacts. And even if it's just talking on TikTok and having 33, 000 people read a paper, that's cool, too. Like, that's great, because how many of those people, you know, found value in that paper and applied it to their own life? Like, that is One method of outreach that is, you know, I'm I'm finding really valuable but yeah, it can get really kind of like disingenuous for me to just be like, and I just publish for peer reviewers and I want to make them happy and yeah, well and that's the The problem is too, it's a systemic issue, right?'cause it's not even individually, I get it. You want to, it's publish or perish, right? If you are Mm-Hmm. If you wanna get tenure, if you want to get, uh, you know, move up, uh, an academic rank. If you wanna make more money, you have to be doing a certain amount of hitting those base numbers. Um, and there's only so many hours in a day, right? It, it's, mm-Hmm. But that's exactly why institutionally, why you need to have some, somebody saying it's important. Like, what are, what are we doing to actually reach the people that this matters about? But yeah, it is what it is. You know, it's, it's not much, um, but I'm happy, but anyway, just, just from, from another person that, that really does value that. Cause I, I, you know, I, I talk a lot about it. People don't realize too, when they're listening to some of my videos, I, a lot of it is. heavily influenced by academic jargon and stuff that I'm reading, but I don't, I don't use that in my videos, uh, because of the fact that it's, I feel sometimes it can cause like a wall between understanding you do it really well. I've seen you, you do it better than I do. Cause whenever I bring up, uh, I feel like when I try to present a paper in my videos, I get way too conference y like where I'm like, I'm talking to other academics, but you do a really great job translating it. Um, to something that a lay person watching it can understand. I appreciate that. That's actually why and how I started using TikTok in that way. My department I'm in social psychology, but we're a joint department with neuroscience and cognitive psychology and I found that any time The social students would give departmental talks the cog and the neuro people just could not grasp what we were talking about and so I started forcing myself to like Read a paper and tiktok Not even looking at the paper not referencing it just kind of like summarizing it from memory and like making it You easy to understand for anyone and it literally was like I was using it to prepare for my comprehensive exam so that I could like learn all these papers summarize them in three minutes That's great. And it just and and I never expected that people would be like interested or like find The paper's valuable. And there's been some fine tuning that's kind of gone on over, over the last couple of years to, to make them more engaging and stuff. But yeah, it was like, it was because it's so hard to do. It was a challenge to myself that I said, it feels like a different language and a lot of ways it is a different language. It is. Um, and I'm, I'm calm studies. I am communication studies. And I read some of the stuff I read in grad school where nobody outside of Uh, academic, uh, graduate school or in academia would, would understand three fourths of the jargon that was in there. But if you don't use that jargon, then it's not respected in the same way and not accepted these conferences and, uh, Yeah, and that's actually part of the reason why if I do a summary video or talk about anything, I always put the research behind me because otherwise I get inundated with comments of people who think I'm just pulling it out of my ass. And they're like, this isn't real, like cite your source. Like, yeah. But anyways, I do think it's important. And I think, I think more, I really, really do wish more people in academia spent time trying to translate Their work for people to hear and for people to actually take because it's valuable stuff, right? When you read it, it's amazing. Some of this stuff is groundbreaking. It's life changing work that people are doing that only a select few people are ever even hearing about. Yeah, and I do. I've personally seen like there's a hierarchy of science communication, right? So I, the paper that got 33, 000 views, it ruffled some feathers because It was like, quirky title, quirky study, but really cool study. And then, I posted about it on TikTok. And I got dragged for the unprofessionalism of, making a TikTok about it. And I got dragged by men who then went on to their podcasts to talk about the science. And I'm like, so what is the difference between your podcast and my TikTok? Is it that you have a little microphone? Is it that it's longer than three minutes? Like, so I think there's, There's differences. There's like different levels of respect in who is doing the science communication, right? Is it a grad student on their phone making a little TikTok? Is it a tenured professor who has a podcast channel? And like, what's the medium? Because when I write for The Conversation or for any like, pop press blogs, that's fine. But when I talk about the same stuff on my phone, it's unprofessional. Well, and it goes down to even in the classrooms. You made a video about it just a couple days ago about how student reviews, uh, how, how the exact same classroom is going to look at the, the value of the professor and the, uh, everything about that, that class simply based on the perceived gender of the instructor in front of their room. Right. And it's, it's, I mean, it's, it's so, I remember, I feel like one of the, can we talk, I would love to talk about that. So student reviews. Let's, let's, let's go. I wasn't going to talk about this today. Go ahead. Let me pull up, cause there were three papers that I talked about. So you introduce, I'm going to pull them up just so that we can, I can have them to reference. For people that aren't aware in when you are a professor, um, student reviews, especially as a non tenure professor. They have a huge impact on your ability to, uh, ever get tenure, to get hired places, to get more classes in places, on academic rank. It, it, they have a huge, um, impact on your career. The problem is people that look like me, Just naturally get higher evaluations, right? Because, uh, and, and this is, it's not just gender. Obviously there's studies that talk about, uh, sexuality. There's studies that talk about race. The studies talk about, uh, uh, disabled professors and all the things that go into all of those. But, um, it, but it's so clear when it comes to men and women in front of a classroom and how, uh, I think it's also easier to track, uh, in that, in that regard from when it comes to studies about just how. Uh, The exact same class taught by the exact same person simply by interchanging a different name that gives the makes the audience think it's a man versus a woman will impact everything about how they're evaluated. Yeah. And so there were, there are three studies that I talked about in a video, but one of them, it's called what's in a name, exposing gender bias in student ratings of teaching. They, I want to say they developed these. Online classes. Yes, they, um, they had TAs in online classes who operated under two different gender identities. So it would be a man who had a class as a man and hypothetically as a woman, and students don't know because they don't see them because it's an online environment, and then a woman doing the same. And then, And everything about the class was kept the same, the textbook, the lecture material, the scripts of the lecture, when assignments were graded, like when grades were released, or there was no delay or anything in one class versus the other. And they've, yeah, they find that it isn't the actual gender. So, yeah, but, but it's the, it's the perceived gender. So literally all else held equal. The only thing that explains differences in overall class performance is gender. And then a couple of the other papers go so far as to see that like ratings of things completely irrelevant to the course. Or like to the instructor's delivery, like the textbook being used and the type of technology being used in the class is rated as less effective when it's a woman than a man, right? Even when it's the same course, the same exact course. And I feel like, uh, One of the reasons it's still so entrenched, even though there's all, there's, there's not the only studies, right there. This has been talked about for a long time, right? Everyone knows that there is this bias when it comes to these evaluations. But I feel like one of the reasons it's still so entrenched is because when it comes to almost every discussion of privilege, the people with a lot of the power are the ones getting the good reviews still, and they don't want to believe that there could possibly. be anything. And no, no, my reviews are great. That means these are real. That means there couldn't possibly be anything. I get reviews all the time, uh, pointing out how young I am and that I am so close to their ages. So it's so nice. And I'm like, would you, or like, I, I've gotten commentary about my outfits and my clothes that I wear. Um, it's, it's weird. And I, once again, this is me acknowledging privilege and not like bragging, but I, I don't, I wear a t shirt and jeans when I lecture, right? Do you, how many comments do you think I've ever gotten on how I dress? Zero. Never. Not a single person has ever commented on the outfits I wear. I've had other colleagues before when I was an adjunct that would make comments about it, but as far as my students on my evaluations, it had zero impact on that. And also because your clothing doesn't have an impact on how good you are as a professor, as an educator in general, but it ends up being a focus solely for women that are in front of the classroom. Mm hmm. And it's, and I don't, and I don't know what the solution is. And that's what I brought up in your comment section that like, cause I do think there should be some students should have some sort of a voice, right? Cause I think we've all, I'm sure I'm sure I know I have, I'm sure you have, I've had professors that were just. Terrible. They were doing bad things, right. And there should be some sort of accountability, um, for them. Of course that all that isn't applied to tenure professors. That's a whole nother, uh, discussion, but there should be some sort of a way for students to express feedback. Um, but when you have such clear bias in, in who, how the feedback is applied and, and what it says, I don't know what the solution is. I don't know either, and I don't even know like, so in my classes, like social psychology, I could very easily, I do talk about gender bias, I could interweave this into the lecture material, be like, let's see how gender bias presents in everyday life, and see if like, teaching them about this has an impact, but that also feels like a sneaky psychological intervention, where I'm like, Let's heighten my reviews because they're afraid of being biased. But I don't know, like, at a, on a wider scale, what can be done. Other than, like, Evaluations not being used so heavily in, like, tenure and promotion. And I feel, I mean, I remember there being something I read. I don't know if it was a formal study or just a review of something, but they did, I remember they gave professors student evaluations on the first week of class and then on the last week of class, and they were almost identical. Um, so I mean Really? So there was really nothing about the class that impacted it? Yeah. And the only changes were when something extreme happened, right? When something big that they had to talk about. And so, maybe they don't have value. It's in most cases. Like, I hate to say that, but like, if And that study would have to be repeated. Like I said, I don't I remember reading this like 20 plus years ago, so I can't say exactly what it was. But if that is true, and if that holds true, why is something that Were the, it's not a reflection of, say, it's not a reflection of the actual course itself. It's just simply a reflection of how the students felt the first impression about you. Yeah. Yeah. Did they like you? Uh, yeah. As, as a person after, after a couple of, of days of teaching. Mm-Hmm. If that, if that's simply at all, this is a gauge of why is it such a core aspect of the review process for teachers. I don't know. I don't like it. I know. I know that my reviews this semester are going to be trash because I've had so many academic integrity instances, and I have given so many students zeros and FFs and those students can still Leave me an evaluation, leave me a review. So what do you think they're going to say? And like, I'm going to be negatively impacted for upholding the academic integrity rules of my university. Well, let's, let's talk a little bit about, I don't know how much time, uh, how much of a rush you're in today too. I want to talk about your research. Wonderful. Well, let's, let's chat a little bit about your, uh, your dissertation. So what, what. Once again, elevator talk. What was your, uh, the, the basis of your, uh, your dissertation about the basis. Okay. Let me just, let me think about like the best way to phrase it. Summarize hundreds of pages into 30 seconds. Also the most interesting, really what I wanted to look at with this project was the impact of experiencing sexual harassment on like fundamentally your sense of self, um, and. Have you seen Barbie? Okay, so you know the scene where Barbie and Ken enter the real world. This is not an elevator pitch, this is a segment, but you know where, where I'm like, this is a one sentence summary. Barbie and Ken enter the real world and she is immediately met with the male gaze, right? She has never experienced being cat called or whistled before, uh, before, right? And they're like rollerblading and she's like, why are these people staring at me? And Ken's like, they're also staring at me. And she's like, yeah. She's like, I'm like conscious of myself because of this and also it feels violent. He's like, this doesn't feel violent to me, right? So that is kind of like a good summary of what this project was. It was looking at the difference between men and women's experiences with experience. With kind of subtle sexual harassment, like being catcalled, being whistled at, being kind of, you know, feeling like someone's sexually evaluating you. Seeing if there's gender differences in how men and women internalize that, and how it shapes how they feel about themselves. So, that's kind of, that's not, to like get the full picture, we have to go back a couple of studies from me. Thanks again. Which is, um, setting the scene. One thing that I study is the objectification of women, right? Which is a buzzword, I'm sure you've heard about objectification. But what I have found In several different lines of research is that when women are objectified, they're actually perceived as object like. They're seen as less capable of feeling pain, less capable of suffering. People are actually attributing fewer human qualities to them. And I look at how women internalize that, how women self objectify. And I find a similar pattern where women who self objectify are less aware of their body sensations. So it's almost like objectification is turning a woman into an actual thing. And so using that as kind of a starting point, I started thinking about this disconnect with like the body that self objectification seems to facilitate with like physiological sensations, physical sensation, perception of pain, and I wanted to know if it extended deeper. Like do, do women who self objectify Not know who they are, because objects don't have a sense of self, do women have a sense of self? And I started looking into this relationship between self objectification in women and something called self concept clarity, which is the extent to which your beliefs about who you are are well defined. Basically, do you know who you are on a day to day basis, and could you give like a clear, coherent, you know, summary of what you're like? And what I find is that women who are high in self objectification have an unclear sense of self. So, they're kind of navigating the world, preoccupied on their appearance, and it kind of takes them outside of themselves, and they don't know who they are. And, this is maybe why you see women like, Adhering to different, like, trends, like, changing their appearance so often. One day it's cool to have thick eyebrows. One day it's cool to have thin eyebrows. One day it's cool to be curvy. One day it's not. And it's like this lo this loss of personal self guided by this these objectifying values that we live in. And so I I keep finding this relationship. Women who are high on self objectification don't know who they are. And I'm like, that's cool. I mean, it's not, it's fucked up, but it's cool, right? And as I'm doing all this research, I keep seeing that women who, that women just overall have a less clear sense of self than men. And I'm noticing it in all this published research, and no one's talking about why there's a gender difference. Why don't women know who they are? And I'm like, well, it's obviously because they're higher in self objectification. But then I'm like, well, why are they higher in self objectification? And I'm like, oh, it's because they navigate a world where they're objectified on a daily basis, like being sexually harassed. So it was kind of like, My dissertation moved backwards from all this work that I'd done where I'm establishing why women have a disrupted sense of self compared to men. And it's because they experience routine harassment, which makes them focus on their appearance and focusing on their appearance comes at the expense of focusing on their internal and body sensations. And so we just navigate this world where, because we're hyper vigilant of who's looking at us and when we become vigilant of ourselves and like how we look and what's happening around us. And it takes us out of our body, and then we don't know who we are. That was like, no, no, that's such like a long winded, I guess what? And maybe you don't have the answer to this. Maybe there is no answer, but like, what, what do we do? Stop harassing women. Right. But I think, I think about just like, I obviously my, my mindset of having two young daughters that are entering this world. Uh, I, I fear, I fear we are truly fucked because what I found in like, I, I've looked at this in several different ways. Like I've looked at different, like different ways that women can be objectified, right? You can be objectified by someone else objectifying you and commenting on your appearance, or treating you as an object. But women can objectify themselves. They can do that in various different ways. One very common way is editing your selfies, right? Mm-Hmm. Treating yourself. as an object on a screen to be smoothed and enhanced and whatever. So my master's thesis actually looked at how editing selfies disrupts your self concept and I found that Women who spent longer editing their selfies when they were in the lab reported a less clear sense of self afterward. So there was this direct relationship between time spent, you know, treating yourself as an object and not knowing who you are. And we do things like that every day. I mean, right now I'm, like, looking at my appearance and Zoom is giving me an option to, you know, Enhance my appearance and, and we edit selfies all the time. And we look in the mirror all the time. And if you're a woman, you have people commenting on your appearance all the time, so I don't know because it's so, it's so pervasive, but what is interesting is in my dissertation, I found that men have this same, they follow the same path, right? Where, when they do experience sexual harassment, it's disruptive, which makes sense. Because, again, it's like taking them out of their body, they're thinking about how they look, and because of that, they don't have the cognitive resources to think about how they feel, right? It's like, it's a trade off. But, We asked participants in our sample how old they were the first time they recall experiencing sexual harassment and women on average Reported being like 9 and met boys were like 14 So there was a difference in how early this starts and then at all three points of data collection Women reported more frequent instances of sexual harassment. So it's happening earlier and it's happening more often often for women. So it's like, the way I'm thinking about it is a domino effect. So the same domino effect is happening for boys and men, but it's starting later. So the compounding effect is not as dramatic. Especially at that age when you don't necessarily have the Brain development, mental faculties, and the intelligence to deconstruct it and understand what is happening. Yeah. Yeah. 9 and 14 is huge, right? Absolutely. Like rather than attributing it to yourself or being confused, you can kind of attribute it to a person being horrible. Um, but yeah, I don't really know besides like stop sexually harassing people. But what's interesting about it is. I was really particular to look at like, subtle, mundane forms of harassment, right? I wasn't looking at like, physical violence or like, sexual violence. I was looking at things that happen like, in daily, interpersonal situations. Um, you know, hearing sexual commentary made about you. Um, and so I think it kind of comes back to something that I talk about a lot, which is like, It is that serious. Like, sexist jokes, they're that serious. Like, it's not just, haha, funny, get over it. Like, these are little things that are dramatically impacting people. So, when you hear that sexist joke, when you see your guy friend being a creep, tell him to knock it the fuck off. Like Right. You know, these are, these are easily intercepted behaviors. And I feel like, especially with the era of, of being so perpetually online, um, uh, you know, the, you, the, the impact and the, Accessibility we have to, to do that sort of, um, harm to others, you know, and not, we not necessarily mean you, but in general, like people in like being, having their face online, having their body online, you're going to read it more. You have comment sections devoted to, um, to that sort of thing. And I imagine. that this work you're doing is going to be really terrifyingly magnified even more the more and more this this goes forward. Oh yeah and I do kind of I apply a lot of my work to social media or will like use when we when we have participants complete our studies we'll use like a social media paradigm where they'll be shown like an Instagram profile of someone and I'm, my kind of working theory that I haven't directly tested, but is that like social media is inherently objectifying right like you go to someone's profile and it's like, they're, they're There's a commodity there, and it's a person, right? And you commodify them with likes, and with comments, and with shares. And so just the kind of naturally objectifying environment facilitated by social media, plus like the distance and the ability to be anonymous, just exacerbates all of this. Right. It's exhausting. Yeah, I mean, it's uh, and I feel like in and this has happened pre social media too, but anytime you break from The norm of whatever we decide is the norm. Uh, it's you you're it's so in your face, how the backlash you get, the violent backlash from doing it. I know you've talked about body hair, right? On your page. I have. Yeah. So I recently partnered with Dove, which great, amazing. Hi Dove, if you're listening. Right. What wasn't great was that so in our contract, There was, there was a clause about, you know, them being able to promote the content, right? I gave them the raw video, they can promote everything, whatever. I, because I didn't, I didn't have a lawyer look at the contract, and because I'm not lawyer brain, Um, I didn't realize that they were gonna promote my video from my page. Which, Fine. So like, I posted a video on TikTok talking about not shaving my armpits. And then Dove promoted it and 24 million people saw this video. Where I'm talking about not shaving my armpits. And do you know the backlash that comes with 24 million people being disgusted by your body and, like, calling you They call me a gorilla. They call Like, I got so much fucking hate for this body positive video. Yeah. Like, oh, it it was It was outrageous. And I'm like, bro, it is my armpit. Like, right. Please find something else to be outraged about. Like, oh my God, it was, it, it, and they treat it like as if you are forcing them to, oh my God, consume your image. Like as if you are, I'm forced. They act like I'm forcing them to eat my armpit hair. Right, right. They're like, how dare you? No, get that away from me, It's, it's so absurd. I'm like, I'm not even, we're not even. Next to I'm on a phone. I'm on a screen You can't even see me or touch like what the hell? Oh my god, you can just scroll they can just a little swipey They don't like it But that was really like an outrageous amount of backlash. I've never had a video get 24 million views, right? so Yeah, and it is and I just speaking from my own experience too. It is one of those things where You You literally can't prepare yourself for it. No, no matter how confident you are in yourself, no matter how much you love yourself, no matter how much you research, you know, I've had, I've had a lot of videos go viral where people just pick out and they find ways to say things that you can't help, but take personally and do exactly. And I'm sure even I can only imagine as someone who researches this for a living and then experiencing it to that degree, just how. I don't know how hard that must be also because like you want to think, well, I can, I, I know better, but it's still, it's still hurts you. It does. It can just, it gets really overwhelming. And like, usually what I'll do, honestly, like if a video is getting blown out of proportion and I feel like I can't manage the comments or it's just like hitting the wrong side of TikTok, I will put it on friends only. Like I have no, I just, I'm like, it's not worth 10, 000 people. More people seeing that I'd rather just have silence like I want to just stop the comments But I couldn't do that on the sponsored video because of the contract um but yeah, I it's it's like it's interesting because I'll post a video talking about whatever sexism whatever and then the comments are in exact Like replica of the thing that i'm talking about and i'm like, thank you. Yes. This is is this performance art Are you trying to like enact the thing that i'm talking about? Right? Um and usually I can kind of like Brush it off, but sometimes it gives me good research ideas Sometimes it's it's just awful and i've gotten really really good over the last couple years with just blocking anybody Like anybody who disturbs my peace block them. We don't, I don't owe anyone a space on my page to like play devil's advocate or to be a dick or, you know, to harass me. Like, Oh, you just want to be in your echo chamber. Literally. No, I, I was talking about this with another creator. Um, cause on Instagram for a while, my comments were just limited to people who follow me or who I follow. And that's because my videos aren't. get a ton more views on Instagram than TikTok, and I find that the comments are worse for me on Instagram. I don't know why, but it's like Instagram just pushes it to anybody and everybody, and it's not like a free page algorithm type thing. So one way to prevent me getting literal death threats. Like I get death threats on Instagram and they don't, they don't care. I report comments and they don't do anything. So I just limit it to people who follow me or who I follow. So someone could hypothetically hit follow and then leave a comment and then unfollow me. But instead I get all of these message requests from these guys who are like, how are you going to try to have a discussion and then limit half of the people who don't agree with you? Like, So much for being open minded, blah, blah, blah. And I'll reply, I'll be like, that is, you know, a boundary that I set on my page. You can follow me or you can DM me like you just did. And then I'll send them some screenshots of the types of comments that I get telling me to kill myself, all this rancid shit, showing how many I get, how I report them to Instagram, and Instagram doesn't take them down, and asking them like, do you think I should? Um, you know, just deal with us on a daily basis or, or what? And the men never reply. No, they never apply. I'm like, I just wanted you to hear how angry I just wanted to rant. I didn't actually care what you had to say. Yeah. Uh, especially when you're actually capable of responding in a way that shuts down what they're, yeah, that they can't argue with. But they still do. And social media is weird too, because I don't even know how their censors work with those sort of things. I'll, I'll sometimes kind of publicly shame people that send me like really offensive or threats, uh, on my story. And I got a content strike. For posting the comment of a person that says something really messed up about me, but they didn't comment anything It's still there the comment still exists and somehow that was fine Yeah, it's I don't know. I feel like um, especially on tiktok I've really changed my content over the last year because I would just get so many violations For replying to people right who were horrible And it's like that's not fair. I don't want to risk my account You Because of this incel, like literal incel. Um, and it's like, it's unfortunate. TikTok is a trash can. I'm having the worst time there, but like, it's really changed like what I talk about or like how I talk about things because I have to dance around words and phrases. And like, I noticed if I'm like smiling in a video while I'm talking about stuff, it's not taken down. But if I'm like acting really serious, it gets a violation. Like, yeah. And people will get mad at you for using. Certain terms like for saying unalive or essay and say, you know, but it's like they don't without realizing that literally it's either that or our video will get taken down or just a shadow band or any other number of things. Like we have to do certain things in order for the message to go across. And we don't like, I've never met anyone that likes having to constantly police every word we use that might be about a sensitive topic, but that's kind of where we're at with and still doesn't work half the time. No, no. Yeah, it's bad. But to anyone listening, I can tell you, and I would love to know if you agree with me. I've, I've also blocked thousands and I've never regretted a single one. There's never, I've never been like, ah, you know, I wonder what they would think about this. No, but what I do see not a lot, but some is the, People who all block typically men who are calling. Oh, I also have words filtered. So misandrist Doesn't show up in my comments. And I just know that there are these men who are like And they think that their comment gets posted but no one sees it which is really really happy It makes me happy because then no one can like it. And so anyway, um But i'll have people that I block and they come in on a backup and i'm like, oh you actually don't understand consent You Okay, I got it. Very cool. You're exactly the type of person I thought you were, which is why I blocked you. And that's the, that is genuinely, I think one of the biggest revelations, not that I didn't know it existed, but just how pervasive this lack of understanding of consent in all situations are online by how many men specifically have no idea, or I just get, get not only Are, are, don't understand it, but get furiously angry when they're denied the ability to do any, to, to, to say whatever they want to somebody. It's awesome. Yeah, it is. Well, and, and this is why Reagan and I had a conversation about this. Uh, I remember what, uh, last, a couple of weeks ago, uh, about the fact that, uh, one of the reasons why you have so many of these accounts that are just trashing women. Right. Versus there is only a handful of people that are actually speaking out against all of this stuff online is because the backlash against the guys that are making this horrible misogynistic content is just simply people saying, Hey, we, we disagree with you or we don't like what you're saying. Right. Versus the backlash against people speaking out against that misogyny is like, it's literal. Threats. Um, and it's not, it's, it's, it's a very clear and distinct difference. If you look at the comment sections of any of them, even the ones that the, you know, there was like the alpha Dom guy where it went super viral with all the people critiquing it. The comment sections are still, they'll, they'll even the worst comments are just. Do it a second time. I'm like mocking them, right? They're kind of like, you know, They're they're judgmental, which I never body shame or doing it. Those things. Those will be the worst that they get, but it's still not to the point where they're, they're finding where they live and trying to. Scare them from making that content anymore. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, there's definitely a discrepancy and I was thinking about that the other day. I had posted, oh, I had posted on my close friends that someone came into my live and doxed me, posted my address in my live, um, TikTok deemed it no violation, and then right after that too, I posted a screenshot of, like, or just a really rancid comment from a man on the, uh, teaching evaluation video, where they were just like, Maybe you replied to it. It was, uh, uh, someone replied to it and it was just like this guy being like, are you sure that women aren't just dumb asses? And I was like, yeah, I'm, I'm pretty sure, you know, I've posted, I've included several peer reviewed, you know, articles for you to review. And he's like, well, you can believe what you want to believe, blah, blah, blah. And someone replied to that series of stories, the doxing, and then the comment from this guy. And they were like, I feel like social media is getting. worse. And I'm like, it is, but it's because it's just, it's dominated by like male violence and male aggression. Like doxing me and calling me like an angry feminist is like retaliatory violence. Like harassing me in comments is violence. Like it's just dominated. Those are the voices that are, that are dominating the conversation. And it's like, I don't know where to go from here. I don't know. Like, do we match that energy? Like how do we I don't know. Well, and you can't just like, cause it's It's hard to say, well, obviously that then you should, we should keep on doing this stuff. And, and it's important to our voices are there because the, you're still experiencing that violence. And it's a real, it's a real threat. There are people that do get, uh, Kaylee Cresta was, uh, mentioned, uh, that she got spit at in real life when someone saw her that knew her videos, you know, and then thank God it was just spit. You know, there could be quote unquote, just spit, right? It could be much worse in this situation. So this is, this is an, a genuine. Real world safety issue that, that happens as a result of this stuff. Speaking of, um, rate my professor reviews. I wonder if I could find this. I had, um, I got a review that rate my professor actually did take down. It was a review from a student who had had me a couple years ago for a research methods class. And they only left me a review like last semester after they had seen me come up on their For You page. And they left me like a really nasty one star review, but explicitly said like, I enjoyed the class. Until she started coming up on my for you page like dreadful personality. We get it. You hate men all this shit And i'm like, this is you intentionally trying to like sabotage my rating When you explicitly say that my class was like good because you disagree with something that you've seen me post After the class has ended on my own personal social media and like luckily Right. My professor took it down because it talked about like my personal life and didn't adhere to their guidelines but i'm like this is You Yeah, like, these people literally want to sabotage your real life. Or, like, put you in danger in real life, and it's atrocious. Like, I would never, even, like, the most rancid creator, unless they're really, really awful, I would never even conceptualize, like, doing something like that, I don't think. Unless they're really horrific. Like, I have reached out to people's supervisors based on behavior online, but like, If it's bad, well, and it's the we talked about, you know, I always joke that uh, not joke It's that cancel culture doesn't exist But the the biggest perpetrators of what is the the realist thing? We have to cancel culture are like is like conservatives trying to take down People that are speaking out, you know, trying to get teachers fired, trying to get, um, all the, all these people that are saying stuff in their personal lives that are not even saying stuff in their classrooms. You know, there was that website that, uh, had like professors names on it with, uh, all, you know, I can't remember where it was, but there's all these instances of people trying to, uh, Literally docs and hurt and harm people from speaking out in their personal lives. Right. I've taught I, I, I, before I, I, and now I'm in Los Angeles. It's most of my students probably would see my videos and not really bad. And I, right. But I taught in a very conservative part of Arizona for years and never had. Any issues because I don't bring it. That's my personal views versus my classroom views, right? People don't understand that it is very possible to be extremely progressive and have extremely, even, even, uh, radical political views and still be a good educator. Right. And still be able to teach what you are teaching them in a classroom and not necessarily indoctrinating them to believe whatever it is you're believing. Right. Yeah. Especially like, That review that I got, it was for a research methods class. I'm like, there wasn't even an opportunity for me to bring in personal experience. Like we're talking about experimental design and regressions and analyses and confounds of variables. Like, what are you talking about? And then, you know, I teach social psychology, which. Is a tricky class to navigate right now in Florida because we're not allowed to talk about discrimination or diversity or whatever I can't even imagine teaching in Florida right now with all that because it's got to feel very much like you're walking on a razor's edge. Yeah, it's not, it's not good but that's a class where like, I, I've been nervous over the last year to. You know, give my lecture on like intersectionality because what if students report me to DeSantis for talking about whatever but A lot of my, so I've taught it online and in person, and I've been teaching online a lot lately. And it's an asynchronous class, so they never see me on, you know, I post my lectures, they watch them. And so a lot of my lectures are already made. I'll update some occasionally, but like, it's the same exact lecture material across semesters for the last like six semesters. And I start, I've, I've noticed my evaluations pointing out things that I'm talking about in lecture that I've been talking about. That no one has ever commented on, but now I get comments saying that I'm too woke and like that, you know, things that I'm like, okay, well, it's the same exact material that students two years ago got so right. Nothing's changed. So it's interesting, but I am. I'm honestly going to be so glad to not be teaching. Here at a public university, at least anymore, because, yeah, it's brutal. I mean, you, you see this, the, this idea, this, this trigger reaction of calling something too woke, you know, you see parents, uh, news stories all the time of parents of kids in like first and second grade getting in, getting outraged that their teacher is teaching them pronouns when that's literally the base part of our language, because the term pronoun has all of a sudden. Become woke, right? Which is the most absurd thing. But and it's and I agree with you, though, in navigating how we teach what we teach. And I'm in, like I said, I'm in California where my my college's mission statement has anti racism in it has intersectionality in it. Right? It's I know for a fact that I could probably go further. With what, when I'm talking about stuff and not really have very much backlash because, um, of the fact that it's part of our school's mission statement, but I don't, because I'm still, there's not enough time in the day to teach what I have to teach anyways. Yeah. You know, we're just trying to cover the textbook, right? We're just trying to cover the most basic aspects of what we can get through in this intro to whatever it is we're teaching course this semester. And, and they think we're of all this. extra time to do all these other things to them and change them into our little minions. And that's the thing with this online class, too. It's not even like we have discussions that derail and we start talking about social issues that maybe those types of discussions could come up where I would come off as a raging leftist, but like. It's literally just these recorded lectures that are from the textbook. And I'm like, if you think I'm too woke, take it up with the textbook. Cause I'm just reiterating what they've written that's been approved by the school to use, and I don't know. Well, on that note, Dr. Naya, uh, where, where can people find you on, uh, online? People can find me on all of the places that you would find people, except for YouTube, which maybe it'll start a YouTube. I don't know. But TikTok, I'm Naya Paya and, uh, Instagram, I am Roxanne Naya. And, uh, I think Is that it? Am I missing any? I think so. Are you on Facebook? Yeah, don't find me on Facebook. Not active there. But yeah, TikTok, Instagram. If you decide to go on YouTube, I will tell you that one of the best things they have is that you can do, it's similar to what you're talking about where you filter words, but you can click hide this user so they think they're still commenting and they have no idea. Yeah, it's great. I love that. I'll post what I know whenever I post this especially critical controversial video, it'll show up like 50 comments. And but I'll only be able to see like seven of them. So somebody got mad. I love that. I love that. So that is the one benefit I will say but YouTube is also there's a reason why there's so many comments that I can't see because there's a lot of toxic people that will follow just for the sake of trolling your comment sections. Yeah, I think now that I'm like, Done with school. I might try to really like dedicate more time to social media stuff and maybe maybe it'll be youtube. I don't know Well, for what you're doing. I think you're doing important work. I really do and anybody listening. You should definitely go to uh, dr. Felix page and see all of the The amazing, uh, work that, that she talks about and then the work she's doing, obviously you're hearing about here and in real world too, is so important. And, uh, I hope you all follow her and, uh, Yeah, follow me. If you don't, it's sexism. It is. Yeah. Don't do the sexism.