Hypothetically Intentional

The Dance of Vulnerability: Building Self-Trust and Eradicating Loneliness with Stacy Rocklein

• Michelle Aalbers • Season 3 • Episode 50

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0:00 | 52:53

What if loneliness is about being unseen, rather than being alone? In this follow-up, Michelle welcomes back Stacy Rocklein, author of Forgive Without an Apology, to explore the risky path of vulnerability. 

About Stacy Rocklein: Stacy Rocklein is an author, speaker, and relationship coach on a mission to eradicate loneliness by helping people create emotional safety within themselves and their connections. Stacy has transitioned through careers as a math teacher and stay-at-home mom to help others find their authentic voice.

In This Episode: Michelle and Stacy discuss why vulnerability with yourself must precede vulnerability with others. They unpack building self-trust, rebuilding after betrayal, and reframing conflict as a path to intimacy. 

Key Conversations:

  • Inner Vulnerability: Using "compassionate honesty" to confront tender feelings. 
  • Choosing Support: Identifying who actually has the capacity to hold your shares. 
  • The School Bus Metaphor: Accepting all parts of yourself without letting "shitty" traits drive the bus. 
  • Trust in Drops: Understanding that trust is built—and spilled—one small choice at a time. 

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This podcast is provided for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only and does not constitute providing professional medical advice, diagnosis, treatment, or professional healthcare services.

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Music Credit Through Season 3 Episode 41
Title: Ebb and Flow
Author: Fabian Measures https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Fabian_Measures/
Source: Free Music Archive https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Fabian_Measures/Singles_Album/Ebb_and_Flow_1829/
Licence: CC BY 4.0 https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/


SPEAKER_02

Hi, and welcome to Hypothetically Intentional, where we ask the question, what if we set intentions with everything we do? I'm your host, Michelle Albers, and today I have returning guest, Stacy Rockline. Welcome, Stacy. Thank you. Thanks for having me back. Last time we talked about your book, Forgive Without an Apology. And I feel like we left some dangling carrots, so to speak, about loneliness and hope. And for sure there'll be some vulnerability conversation today. I'm I'm almost positive. But before we dive into all of that, would you like to set an intention for us today?

SPEAKER_01

Yes, I would love to. And oh, I mean, the last time I set an intention that I just wanted to be here and fully present, and I want to do that again. I feel like that creates a connection between us, and that will create a connection to whoever's listening. So I'm gonna set that same intention again that I am able to be fully here with you and that we make some magic together.

SPEAKER_02

I appreciate that intention because last time it worked. I mean, and full disclosure, we've never like we just met the last time we recorded. Like we had not talked, we had not spoken previously, and it just flowed so beautifully and so naturally. And you just keep coming in lately. I'm just like, I gotta get Stacey back on. We didn't finish, like we didn't finish what we started. Not that we ever will, because there's always more to talk about. Hey, we can keep doing it again. Sure, sure. Right. But I think something that we sort of left hanging out there is we when we were talking, we were talking about loneliness and relationships. And I don't know if I love putting it this way, but I think it's accurate. So the requirement of vulnerability within all of that. That's like a big egg to just sort of open or like, you know, door to crack open. But should we step through it and absolutely?

SPEAKER_01

I mean, I think it's critical vulnerability. That's the only way we're gonna have those deep, meaningful relationships that we crave. But it is just inherent in it, is risky, you know, it's a thing to do. And you can try to, you know, cover all your bases as much as possible to try to keep yourself emotionally safe, but there will always be the risk that the other person will not see you when you're being vulnerable, will not stay there, will not have the capacity. And so, yeah, that's risky. And it makes sense that we all put up guards and we don't want to do it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, right. So, and you work with people specific to this as well, right? To taking down those walls, as I I do as well. It's like just taking down those walls and I think there's something about going in and finding the courage to like vulnerability and courage seem like oxymoron, like they seem like polar opposites on some level. It's like vulnerability feels soft and um well, risky, as you put it. And courage feels like power and strength. And it's weird to use the two words together, I think.

SPEAKER_01

I think you're right though. I think that they're linked because you know how people say you can't love someone else unless you love yourself. My version of that is you can't be vulnerable with someone else until you can be vulnerable with yourself. And so the first step, really, I think, is being, you know, I've been using the phrase having compassionate honesty with yourself lately, so that you are giving yourself grace, but you're confronting the ways that you have been hurt or the tender ways that you feel. And when you can do that with yourself, so you have a little bit of that power and courage, it feels it feels a little safer to go in and make yourself vulnerable with someone else, I think. For sure.

SPEAKER_02

It's funny when you talked about when you said be vulnerable with yourself. I like felt a collective gasp of like, what? How do I do that? And I think that I think that's a great place to start is like, how do because I always talk about building self-trust. And I think when we don't have that, well, how do how can we possibly hold space for our own selves inwardly to get vulnerable when we kind of keep copping out on ourselves or just keep like betray is a big word, but sometimes it is that, and often it is that it's like over and over again we choose something different, over and over again we self-sabotage, over and over again we avoid, you know, that which isn't this isn't coming from a place of judgment or guilt or shame or anything like that. It's just like it is human, it is human to avoid this shit. And so it's like, how do we build that muscle of self-trust? And for me, I always just say one small tip at a time, but can we give like real life examples of that today?

SPEAKER_01

Well, yeah, I mean, I I love what you're saying. I think that self-trust is really important. And like even underneath the trust that you build by kind of making promises to yourself and keeping them, even below that, I think you have to trust that even when you don't, that you will hold yourself in compassion and love. And the trust between, you know, I guess your actions and who you are, that has to be there when we do screw up, because we are gonna screw up. So even more than the like kind of action follow through, action follow-through trust that we build is there has to be a trust that I'll hold myself even when I screw up, you know, because I yeah, because we're gonna.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And yeah, I mean, you examples everywhere. I mean, there's just the stuff that we do day in and day out with ourselves. You know, if I promise to get on my walking pad right here today, I'm gonna get on my walking pad right here. Or if I promise to tell that person I'm in a relationship with that what they did hurt my feelings, that I go in and do that. It is about, you know, things that are related to just us and then things that are related to other people as well. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

I think I'm thinking about there's something about like when your world stops spinning, like when that big, big thing happens, whatever it is, pick anything that we're it literally drops you to your knees and you're just like, oh my God, I don't know how I'm gonna do this thing. I think those are the moments that we prove to ourselves that we will show up because we find a way in those moments. We lean into other people. It's not about it. I mean, yes, it all falls on our own shoulders, right? Like, yes, we are the ones who have to take the step, choose to either lean in and ask for help or figure out what it is we might need because no one else is gonna really know except us. But I think it's when those big, big moments happen that we it almost like there's just no, it's almost like reflex. Like there's no other choice. You're gonna find a way to survive. And maybe that's survival mode. And I, but I think there's a learning in that. Like we can witness it and even reflect on it. And we've all had those moments. Like, what did I do? Who did I lean into? Was that a wise choice? Because when you're out of it, then you can you can dig in a little and get some wisdom around it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, I think that's really important what you were saying. When when you do, you get that huge piece of news, you know, that's just devastating, whatever it may be, or you do something that feels devastating, who you turn to really does matter. I mean, and gosh, we make so many bad choices sometimes where we there's that person we want to be in a relationship with. So we think this is where I'm gonna lean. And then we are left alone. You know, we're lonely in that moment because they're not there. And when we go, you're what you're saying, when we reflect back and we can see where the perfect places to lean were, that is really important, who we choose to hold us in those moments, because some people will not, and that is a hard thing to confront, especially when it comes to, you know, like family relationships are always something that I talk about with every client, no matter how they come into my world. It we will inevitably be about parents or siblings or whatever. And in our minds, we think that should be that those are my people, right? Those are supposed to be my people. Those are those are the places where I'm supposed to lean, but so often they are the worst place to lean because they don't have, they don't hold us that way, they don't protect us, they're not emotionally safe or emotionally available, and then we're left lonely and wondering why, because we made an assumption about that relationship. So I mean, it's tough picking the right people to lean into really does matter.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and I think including yourself in that equation is such an important piece, too, because it's like if you if you consistently, whether it's a big thing or a little thing, lean into someone else and look for either that scapegoat or someone to take your pain, someone else outside of you to take your pain away. I'm not saying it's bad to seek help or to seek comfort. I'm saying if you're expecting them to solve it for you, if you, if you want them to like whisk that pain away, that's where you get stuck in the cycle of like I just recently I had like a bigger thing happen and I found myself mentally wanting to lean into people who I haven't talked to in months, years, weeks, right? And I was like, why am I wanting to lean into these toxic people? And it's like, because well, they have toxic behaviors and patterns that old me, it was familiar and they made me feel good temporarily, but then hindsight, they did absolutely nothing for me and took me out of my own self and my own wisdom. And I was just like, holy shit. And I'm giving them a lot of credit, right? Like I allow them to. I want to make that clear. It's like that's me not having that relationship with myself for a long time. But I think it's fascinating when we kind of get depleted or broken down, so to speak, in a way where we're not plugged in and charged. And it the temptation to go back to what's familiar and comfortable, but often not helpful.

SPEAKER_01

Well, true. Yeah, totally. Well, think about like, I mean, if something really terrible happens to you and you're having a lot of pain about it, your higher self is like, okay, the person to pick here is someone who's going to be in this moment with me, be present, just listen, you know, see me. Our lower self is like, who is gonna sit and talk shit with me about this? Like, who is going to, you know what I mean? Like, who is going to bash that person that hurt me? Like, and and yeah, it it's like, you know, it's tempting. It's so seductive because it does give you a little bit of a charge, but you will always leave feeling worse because you know that you needed something else from a different person. And so, yeah, I mean, it makes sense that we all want to like drop back into those old patterns, but we have to keep selecting really carefully the people that are gonna make us feel held while we're there. Not that they're gonna solve any problems. And I don't think we even really want our problems solved most of the time. We just want someone to acknowledge us, you know? Yeah, to be seen and heard and loved and understood.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Do you think that leaning into the other people, other people, right? Like the the do you think leaning into people who we claim as familiar, I'm just using that, like maybe we don't even know it yet, but just from what I the previous things I just said, like the people who are familiar but in old patterns contribute to that feeling of loneliness because they don't ever take you anywhere.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, because the the I had this friend who what did she she used to say, I feel like I don't really know someone until we've like cried together. And and there's some truth to that, that you create when you're having a devastating moment and someone is there with you while you're sharing it and they're not taking the pain away, but they're seeing you, you create this meaningful connection that leaves you feeling like I'm not alone in this world. No one's gonna save me, but I'm not by myself in it. And when we pick someone who, you know, is gonna sit there and talk shit with us, they that doesn't make, we haven't created a deeper connection. We haven't started building that meaningful relationship or contributing to it or adding to it. And so that's why I think we do absolutely feel lonely after those exchanges because it didn't create that, it didn't, it didn't contribute to that dance of vulnerability. And to add to that, if we're always the person coming and saying, I want to be seen, but that other person doesn't ever do that back to us, we're still gonna be left feeling lonely because it doesn't feel like a connection. Like it's a better connection than not, but it's not enough. We want to see each other, I think, to really create something meaningful in our very closest relationships, because there are some that we choose to be in that are one-way relationships, and that's our choice, and that's fine. But in the you know, life partners and our best friends, you know, we want to to have that two-way street, you know.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Gosh, I'm I'm just reflecting on you. I think we don't show, I mean, we take it takes a lot of energy. I'm stumbling over my words, but I'm I'll get there. It takes a lot of energy to build those walls and put up those veils and like put on the mask, so to speak, uh, of how we show up in any given room or with any given human. And I think if you really want to know who someone is, uh, they won't be at their best self, but they will be at their true self. It's when they're depleted, it's when that big thing happens that they don't have energy, they don't have energy to put their walls up. They might get short with you, they might show you some inner wounds and inner pains. And it's like that doesn't make them bad, but it does give you a really accurate, honest, open awareness of how they show up without the filters and the masks and the things. And I'm I'm not saying that as like a like a red flag warning, beware. I'm saying it as if you really want to get to know someone, meet them in the middle of grief, meet them in the middle of heartache, meet them in the middle of whatever it is. Yes, conflict. Yes, because when you're the when they're reactive, like my old reactive was always angry in a sharp, sharp tongue. That's how I showed up. Oh, yeah. It's where my wounds protective mechanism. Me too. I don't show up that way anymore. And so now when I get reactive, it's different, it's not the same. And so, like that work and evolution and healing that I've done shows up in those moments of conflict, in those moments of grief, in those moments of pain. And I don't know, it's just a more whole picture when you're not showing up like we're recording a podcast today. You and I both have our work hats on, and we're also, I feel like, and I'm making an assumption here, and you don't have to agree, but I feel like we're also fostering or forming or beginning a friendship. Oh, for sure. We're like flowing when we did this. I was just like, oh, that was just so easy, such a beautiful thing. I feel seen, I feel heard, I feel understood. I feel like someone who actually can have a conversation in something that I'm really passionate about that not everybody is, and it doesn't flow in the same way, right? Totally. Yeah. So I just think, you know, I to your point, to your friend's point about like you won't know somebody until you cry together. I'm like, well, you won't know somebody really until they're full-blown grieving, full blown in pain, full blown in conflict, and everything is down because they don't have capacity to hold it up. Well, that's when you really see.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. I mean, I conflict, I think, is such an opportunity. It's such a uh path to intimacy if you see it that way. And I mean, you know, we're we all screw up. Look, I mean, and I have not evolved to where I don't ever get angry. Sometimes angry Stacey is the first one everybody gets. Um, like, I know it's protective, I know I'm not really mad, I know that I'm really hurt, but sometimes that happens. And if we can keep working on conflict, but actually go in and do that good repair job where we try to understand each other. There are things that come out in conflict we would never see about the other person if it didn't happen. If if there are people who say they never fight or argue, I am like, oh, you guys don't really know each other. You know, you don't, there's you're not really sharing everything because there's stuff that you haven't bumped up against. And that's why relationships are amazing for getting to know ourselves too and the other person. And if we could kind of reframe conflict in the way that you were describing it, where you're seeing someone at where they've been stripped out to where they have no capacity, you're seeing them, you're seeing their childhood wounds, you're seeing where they still carry hurt and pain. And it isn't about the dishes in the sink, you know, it is about so much more. So yeah, no, I think those are beautiful moments of getting to know somebody.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And the the perspective change, I think, is helpful, right? Not, oh, it's okay, they're grieving, but like, oh, wow, they really are they're in a place where they don't have capacity to have their guards up or their walls up or their whatever you want to call that. There's a different kind of compassion I can enter that space when I see it through that lens versus the I don't care. There's no excuse to treat anybody that way. And that might be true. And also, can I have some compassion and some grace for someone who's in that darkest of moments, who doesn't have anything left? And yeah, some words might come out that don't feel great, but is that even about me? And I don't know. There's so many ways to that.

SPEAKER_01

No, it's true. I mean, I think that one of my one of the things that I've loved about being a parent is that you're so invested that you will stay in those moments where they are, they've lost their shit, you know, and they are like, you know, they're but you have that compassion because of the positioning of that relationship. And so you're like, okay, like I'm gonna stay here even as you shut me out, scream at me, you know, all of those things because I see you and I see you're in pain and and I care. I don't know like how long it would have taken me to be able to not say, screw them, nothing's acceptable. You know, like that, those relationships really helped me to have that compassion that I don't think I had before that. You know, I was very much like, bye-bye.

SPEAKER_00

I don't tell that.

SPEAKER_01

So I I mean, I'm really in this moment, I feel really grateful for that. That being shown that and and getting to take that into my other relationships. Cause yeah, sometimes people are just at their worst and it doesn't make them bad.

SPEAKER_02

Right. Yeah, if we if we judged everyone on their worst moments, oh my goodness. And if everyone judged me on my worst moments, I mean, I I think I feel lonely now at times. Holy shit, I would be lonely all the time and forever. And so would everyone else. Like, you know, we have our moments where it's just we're legit not pretty, a lot of ugly, and and energetically, I mean, you know, I think so. As we're talking about all of this and and talking about having capacity or not having capacity and how we show up with other people, I want to really zoom in on the loneliness piece because I find, I don't know how what you find these days, but I find a lot of people are feeling lonely, but also are feeling like they don't want to go outside their homes. So then how do we it's those deeper connections? Because I think you can have we have them on this podcast all the time. You know what I mean? I have them in in virtual Zoom rooms all the time. We're on Zoom right now. I also have them in person all the time. But how do you get to a place where I don't know, I think loneliness is inevitable if you really struggle with vulnerability and being seen. And yet we desperately crave it. So I don't know, this is a big conundrum that I would like to start to unpack if we can, because I think it's a big one that many, many, many people are feeling right now.

SPEAKER_01

Yes, I uh 100%. I think tons of people are feeling lonely. And it's the way I define lonely is not is feeling unseen. Like so, so why that matters is that you can have relationships everywhere. You can be seeing people every day and feel lonely if you don't feel seen in any of those relationships. And so and gosh, there it's so there's so many different reasons why we feel lonely, right? It's such a weird world and we are so connected, but not connected. And, you know, people are building relationships with like AI, an AI, you know, individual, which may not make you feel totally connected if it doesn't feel like it's a two-way, you know what I mean? So the dance, it emotional intimacy is kind of a dance in my mind of me being vulnerable and the other person seeing me, them being vulnerable and me seeing them. And then that builds trust, and then we can do bigger vulnerabilities because we know we're gonna hold each other. So you have to create that in different places so that you won't feel lonely. And I'll be in a room sometimes where I'm like, nobody here sees me. And this is not my space, right? I'm not gonna build there, you know. So you don't want to put yourself in too many of those spaces, obviously. And I think someone can be at home and very connected if they do, you know, kind of create. That sort of, you know, dynamic with another person. But there has to be, like you were just saying in the beginning, you have to have a willingness to, you got to pick the right person. Okay, let's start right there. You have to pick the right person to do this with because there are some people. I wish I had my little like model. I kind of think of it like, I'm going to try to create this in our verbally. Like, I have a step stool that has like three steps. And you have a step stool that has three steps. And each step will bring us closer together if we can keep taking them. And some people just can't get on their step stool. They can't create a connection with people. They can't hold someone when the other person's being vulnerable. They can't share their vulnerability vulnerability. But if I can do those three things where I can create a connection, like, you know, like shared interests and values, and then, and then I can share myself vulnerably and receive someone's vulnerability. If we can all take those three steps up, look how close we are to each other. You know, we create there. So you first have to identify who in your life has that capacity. Not everybody does. Some people, you're just going to be like, you joke with them, it's fun. It's not going to be a meaningful depth relationship. And then when you identify people who you can tell they'll share and they'll receive shares, that's where you want to build. You know, that's those are the places where you build. And if they can't do that, I mean, I highly recommend not wasting your time there. You know, if you are, you know, if you are sharing, sharing, sharing, the other person is never sharing with you. That's you're never going to get to the height of emotional intimacy. And that's okay. There's nothing wrong with the way they do it. It's just not where to build.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And I would say that those steps, like I'm just visualizing the step stools. My step stool, which steps I'm willing to take or able to take, depends on who's on the other step stool. So I also have different capacity and limitations based on who who like there's an alchemy there. And if it's not aligned, it's not aligned, and that's okay. And I think I'm hearing two things in this that are really loud. And one of them I feel like people might enjoy hearing, and the other one I feel like they might not enjoy hearing. But I'm gonna say them both anyway. Uh on one level, you know, when you feel like you can't take a step, give yourself some grace and understand that maybe that other person on the other steps will just isn't for you right now and trust that gut feeling or that inner knowing, or or just acknowledge that there's some fear there and you don't know why yet and let it be. Don't beat yourself up about it. The flip side of that is you do have to take a step at some point, like whether you're afraid or not. So it is on you. Like you can't, you know, you can't expect someone else to be vulnerable all the time, not give reciprocity and then be quote unquote mad about loneliness. I mean, you can, but that's on you. You know, you're you're part of this problem and you're part of the solution. And I think sometimes we have a hard time hearing that. It's like, well, I don't do vulnerability, it's not safe for me. It's never been safe for me. I have too many wounds, I have this, I have that. Okay. Then start there, start somewhere because if you are never able to take that vulnerable step ever, you will perpetually feel lonely. I don't, I've never met anybody who, you know, is so locked up and guarded. I mean, I've been there, right? And then just not, I mean, if you if you don't have the ability, connect on that deeper level. And to be fair, I just want to be really transparent. That is one of my hugest, most core values. Like, I don't know, they say it's an Aquarius thing. I'm like, whatever, it's a Michelle thing. Like I need deep-seated connections. I hate small talk. I just like I want to go to a place where we are both seen, felt, heard, and understood. But not I don't have to accept everything, and they don't have to accept everything. I just, I just don't want to feel like I have to hide or tuck into a rule system that works for you but doesn't work for me. And that's just where I land.

SPEAKER_01

No, I love that. And I feel, I mean, I part like the beginning of the process of writing this book and creating the course before the book was I came to this just moment where I was like, I am so lonely. Like, I am so lonely. I really don't feel seen anywhere. And someone around the same time had said to me, like someone I had just met, so and like a new new friend. And she was like, Has anyone ever told you that you're hard to get to know? And I, and I was like, Oh my God, yeah, my whole life people have been telling me that. And she was like, Yeah, it's like I can't get in there. And I put finally put those two things together and was like, Oh, I am here for anybody's vulnerability. Like, I will stay with you, I will make you feel seen, but I would never show up vulnerably. I was like, I stay back here. You, all of this is fine. I am totally happy to go wherever you need to go. But no, I won't show up and do that. And that's when I was like, okay, well, that's that's the block for me. Whatever is what why ever I'm guarding my heart, why I feel that I have to solve it all inside, never share any of it, never be in pain in front of people, never be sad. And like that was my work was figuring out what I had to heal so that I could open myself to other people. And so I really relate to something you said in there that just made me feel like I needed to share that. Though that was the connection that I needed to make between for me, loneliness, my feeling of loneliness, and how I was responsible for it.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. And I think I I don't know, I there was a chunk of time. I don't do it as often anymore. Sometimes I will if I'm called to. It depends on the room. But like I would be in a summit and I'd be like, I just need to let you all know that where you are currently today, whether that's good, bad, or indifferent, you did it to yourself. Like you chose it on some level. And I'm not saying I'm not talking about like abuse and those sort of things, but I am saying that like where you are today is made up of all of your choices, no matter what's happening in the environment around you. And it was such a like a harsh thing to say, depending on the room. But I do, I mean, there is truth in that. Like we are creating our own reality. And and if if there's pain points or wounds or just like a desperation, like a desperate feeling of loneliness, on some at some point, you have to go in and look at yourself. You have to look at the mirror and go, okay, what's my role in this? Because I can be mad at the rest of the world for the fact that I feel this way, but I am an active co-creator in this. I'm an active participant in this. And if I've never looked at me, then I gotta, I gotta, I gotta go there. I gotta start there because that's what's gonna change everything. We're not, it's not about controlling the external world, it's about deciding how you want to show up within your internal world and then how that plays out in the external world. And that's such a beautiful like discovery and uncovery that I had on on my journey. And it also was horrific. I mean, it was like, oh my God, I'm a horrible human. And holy shit, I'm like blaming everybody else or or mad at everybody else, and my sharp tongue is just like firing away, and it's like, ah, yeah. But it's empowering.

SPEAKER_01

It's also empowering though, right? Because then we created it so we can change it. Like it's not out of our hands. And so I'm sure that every time you've said that, as many people as you think might have heard it harshly, there were some, there were people there who were like, oh, okay, like I have a direction. I can change this, I can fix this. But you're right, like when I was set out to try to, you know, kind of heal the things that I hadn't looked at yet. You know, I was a very much look forward person, not a look back person. But I was like, I think I'm gonna have to look back and like do some healing. I really honestly was like, man, people have done me wrong. I'm ready to forgive. And I was like, oh, most of these stories are about me and how I have to self-forgive. And so, because it's like this is an example I like to use. Someone told me at one point when I was doing karaoke, like, you have no business doing karaoke, like you cannot sing. And I was like, oh, and I didn't sing for years. So it's like, okay, that statement was made, it hurt my feelings. Fine. Every time for two decades that I didn't sing was my choice, right? That was all me. So every single thing, even though that's not fair that someone said that to me, that's unkind. Like that is a painful thing that happened, just like everything that we go through, even abuse, you know, terrible things have happened to us. When do we when did we pick up the the switch and keep flogging ourselves, you know? That's that's the stuff that we get to take control over. So yeah, I love what you said.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, I think it's such a complicated journey. And I'm not sure how this like podcast will quote unquote read to the listeners like how it'll how it'll be received. Right. Um, but I think there's a lot of nuggets in here. Um, and I'm just inviting the listener, it's a lot. I feel like we're unpacking a lot. And so I just want to invite the listener to just chew, chew on the nuggets that feel like they're yours and leave the rest alone and circle back someday if you're resonating at all. And also don't be so hard on yourself. I just I was so hard on myself when I realized what an asshole I was. I mean, I was just, I was so mad because I I'm a kind-hearted human by by nature, and I wasn't. And to admit to myself that I wasn't and that I had treated people not kindly was a really hard, like that was hard for me to accept. Me too. Um and also, like, if you get honest about it, ever we all are. We all have those moments. There's not one of you out there who's listening who hasn't been an asshole at one point or another in your life. You just have. It's human.

SPEAKER_01

Totally. And that's why compassionate honesty, I think, is really important because the honesty piece is critical if you want to heal those things. But I mean, grace for yourself, it doesn't, it doesn't benefit us to to, you know, double slap ourselves. The first slap, you know, where we hurt someone and that sucks and that we feel terrible about, but then to come back with more judgment on top of it, it just makes the work harder and longer. So yeah, and I do also love what you said. Like, we are getting into like dark corners in like a lot of different spaces. So if it feels overwhelming, I do hope the person listening just like take the thing that your nervous system can handle.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, go with that. Right. Because Michelle and I are happy to go all kinds of crazy places. I can tell. So do do what feels good to you.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. And don't be afraid to lean in for support and be mindful when you do. I think that was, you know, the tendency, especially when you're depleted in any way, shape, or form, or if you have some sort of if you're in pain, emotional pain, physical pain, spiritual pain, like whatever kind of pain it is, there is a reflex. I think it's a I believe it's a human reflex to go to what's known because we don't like the unknown and we don't like change. And so when you're already in a fragile state, using that term loosely, because I actually believe that's when the strength happens, not when we're actually fragile. Um just know that pause and just take a moment and ask. Because sometimes, sometimes my answer in the beginning was just like, well, I'm not reaching out to anybody. I need to just sit with myself because I can't, I know that I won't make a good decision here on who I should lean into. And I'm not saying I was alone or like afraid to ask for help. I was saying I was mindfully choosing not to, because at some point, the other thing I needed to do, and I don't know how your journey was, but I needed to actually claim ownership and take accountability for my own shit instead of waiting for someone to come in and whisk it, either whisk it away or make me feel better, or to like, no, no, they're there. It's okay. You didn't, you didn't know. Well, it's like, okay, I didn't know, but it's on me to know now. Stop just brushing that aside. Like, I got at some point, I gotta come into me and go, what do I need to know so I can do it different next time instead of just perpetuating the same thing over and over and over again?

SPEAKER_01

Well, and what you were saying is another like lonely making moment when you're saying to somebody, I was an asshole and I need to sit with this, and this is making me feel bad. And the other person's like, no, no, no, no, no, it's understandable. You're they're not seeing you. What you need for them to say is like, that sucks. Like that that does not feel good. Like, I get it, you know, not to reassure us or to talk us out of it or whatever. So I think that like it's all even those little moments where we show up on default and we want to make the person feel better or whatever, but that's not what they need. They just need to be validated.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. It's like, oh gosh, you said that, and I'm just like, yeah. Thus, like, I uh I was a people pleaser. I say was. I mean, I that still will sneak in for me sometimes, but what I'm realizing is people pleasing is super not actually a kind-hearted thing. It is, it is enabling, it is self um self-defeating. Well, it's also self-defeating. It screws you over, it screws them over. It's not good. Um, yeah, it's very self-absorbed. It's like, well, if I make them feel better, then I feel better, and then I can bypass all my shit. Totally. Totally. Yeah, it's interesting and and fascinating how how we work as humans. And the I here's the other thing that I just want to make really clear is like we're not all that different. Like we have different stories and different wounds and different ways we show up, but the human pain points and and how we engage with those, there's only so many. They're not infinite. The pain might be infinite, the healing might be infinite, you know, it just evolves over time. But I mean, I believe we're we're never fully healed. There's always more. But that's a but that's that's implying growth, not defeat.

SPEAKER_01

Uh yeah, no, I think you're right. Like at the end of the day, you strip off all the details of it. We all are getting hurt the same way as we all, which means we all have the potential to heal as well, because people are out here doing it if they choose. You know, I know that you and I can just always hear that you are big on accountability, and I love that. And and it is, we have to hold ourselves accountable for that healing. If we want to, you know, eradicate loneliness in our lives and create meaningful relationships, nobody else can do the healing work for us. That's on us.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And I think there's something about accountability that does build self-trust for sure. You know, and I think I think if you don't trust yourself, it's just, I mean, it's all that, right? It's like if you don't love yourself, you can't love someone else. If you don't get vulnerable with yourself, you can't get vulnerable with someone else. If you don't trust yourself, how are you gonna trust other people? It's like, well, if you don't trust yourself to know whether or not another person is trustworthy, how are you ever gonna get there? You know, but it's literally one action at a time over and over and over again. I just see all of this healing stuff, stuff that's a big general word, but it's we're building muscles. It's just we're building new patterns, new ways of showing up, new strengths. I say muscles because it's like we're building strength, we're building things that actually serve us and support us and like make our foundation strong. And if we don't have that, shit gets messy real fast. And it doesn't take much to crumble us.

SPEAKER_01

No, I know. And I like what you're saying about building trust because I think about trust, like I've dealt with a lot of people who have um been working on betrayal, healing betrayal. And trust building or rebuilding is obviously like a big part of that work. And it's one moment at a time. It's not that, you know, that person never talks to someone else online for the next year and then I trust them. It's that that person says, I'm feeling really insecure and I feel like reaching out to someone, but I want you to know that, and then I'm not gonna do that. It's the transparency, it's the vulnerability, it's the seeing each other. And so trust is actually built all these tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny moments. That's that muscle that you're building. It's not in like these big grand things. And just like you said, it can go away in a second, right? You can build, build, build, build, build, and you can crush that building down in one blow. So it's just such delicate work, but it is muscle building totally. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And I think um you're I just am I'm picturing uh my partner always says this. It's like trust is built in drops and spilt in buckets. But I'm like seeing the bucket, I'm seeing the bucket fill up, you know, and then just like kick it over. Oops, I I misstepped and knocked it over. And it's just like I it is that. And I think it's also not gone forever. There's always another drop. There's always another choice, there's always another action, there's always something else that you can do and and see for yourself. And yeah, I just think and that's really important.

SPEAKER_01

That's really important for the person who has broken a trust because that's I mean, it is devastating to be the one who is betrayed, and it is devastating to be the person who betrayed someone. Both people are in so much pain about it. And you know, it's it's I almost think it's worse for the person who did the betraying because even though that tugged the rug out from someone else, that was outside them, but you were the one who did it. And so, like you were saying, like accidentally kicking the bucket over, yeah, and then dealing with the devastation of that, having spilled all that trust. That is hard healing work that people choose to do, which is amazing.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

And you're right, like within the right relationship, that can be there is another drop, right? And another drop and another drop and another drop. But it has to be with vulnerability and transparency and constant, honest, compassionate honesty. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Right. Well, and I'm just thinking about a bucket. Like I'm thinking if you have a leaky faucet, right? And you put a bucket under it, that faucet is drifting consistently and it will fill up faster than you would like because you're like, oh shit, what am I gonna do with all this water now? Right. Because it's consistent, it's over and over and over again at a consistent pace. There it goes. But if that drop is inconsistent, that bucket could be there for years and never fill up. And so it is a perfect visualization and metaphor of like this is what it looks like, but you have to show up, you have to be an active participant, you have to choose something different, and you have to choose it over and over and over again until it becomes easier for you. You know, and that sounds like so simple, it's not well, no, it's well, it is simple, but it's just not easy.

SPEAKER_01

Correct. Yeah, yeah, fair. Yeah, no, I mean, it is there's what is more courageous than that, than showing up and just being vulnerable after you've kicked a bucket over.

SPEAKER_02

Right. Well, and then when you're feeling all the feels too, it's like everything feels a little unsteady when you're in that space of oh gosh, because the the new, the unknown, that new, the unknown place we're going when we're doing healing work in and of itself feels vulnerable.

SPEAKER_00

Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Because the pain of our known is more comfortable than the unknown of our freedom, so to speak, right? Like there's this it's such a weird, it's such a weird how the way it plays out. But I've never seen it not go that way. It's always the pain. I know it. I can it's predictable. I can walk into this room with these people in it, and I know exactly how it's gonna play out, and I get to choose whether I stay or go. That's it. Like I didn't used to think I had a choice of whether I get to stay or go. Now I'm like, I got boundaries, I'm gonna go if I need to go. And I may choose not to arrive in the first place. Like that's just how I've landed. And then I have other rooms where it's like, I don't know who's in this room. I don't, I gotta put all my walls up, right? Like that's how it used to be put all my walls up before I go into this room because I really desperately want to be seen, but I don't know if I trust these people to see me. And so I have to like, that's such a guarded, exhausting life. And now I'm just in this place where I'm like, here's the thing. No matter what it is, and I'm not tempting the universe here, but like, no matter what it is, I know that I will figure it out. I don't mean by myself, I just mean I have amazing humans in my world. I have an amazing spiritual team, I have amazing skills, tools, and resources, and I don't know it all, and I don't have it all figured out, and it might be messier than it has to be, but I know because of years of doing this work that I will find a freaking way to figure it out.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. And I mean, I have a place to be. That's the ultimate, the ultimate feeling of emotional safety is to just know no matter what happens in my life, I will be okay. Like to be to get to that point meet makes you able to walk into any room and then assess, okay, is this a room for me or not? And then go. But it isn't until you absolutely have that trust that you will be okay no matter what, or you will figure it out no matter what, that it gives you that courage to go into any room and just be like, okay, let's look around and see if this is for us.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, and I think the beautiful thing, I don't know if this is how it worked for you, but it's just like downloading now as I'm as we're talking about this. In building my trust, I don't just go into rooms with my trust and my healthy boundaries. There's a wisdom that came with that. There's like a awareness and a wisdom, and like I can do the pause and assess the room. And I'm not, I don't make ridiculously, you know, um chaotic choices. I still might choose to have my walls up and not engage, but it's mindful decision. It's with awareness, it's with wisdom, it's with choice, it's with a boundary, it's not out of fear, out of protection, out of being guarded, out of, you know, I'm not saying being guarded is wrong. I just wouldn't use that word. The guarded I'm talking about is is conditioning and survival mode, not. Mindful awareness coming from my highest self, you know?

SPEAKER_01

No, it's so exactly like you can someone else can watch you walk into a room and it could look ex unhealed, can look exactly the same as healed. If you walk in and energetically, you're like, okay, it's better for me to kind of keep a guard up here. It might look the same from the outside, but it feels so different inside. Inside, oh, I'm reading the energy. This is not for me. I'm I don't need to make myself vulnerable in this space, but I'm okay, you know. But yeah, I I love the way you were just describing that because that just really makes me. I don't know. That just that was a good, good one.

unknown

Thank you.

SPEAKER_01

It just, I really feel that the difference of, you know, I it's kind of like I always think about, you know, I'm an ambitious person. There was an ambitious Stacey from years past that was like desperate panic. Let's go, let's go, let's go, let's go. I have to, I have to. My ego's so attached to this. And now I'm still, it looks the same, right? Yeah. But inside it feels purpose driven, it feels passionate, it feels excited. It doesn't have that like same low energy vibe to it. But yeah, it looks the same on the outside. That's so funny. Isn't that interesting?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. Yeah. We're both like in real time reflecting on this, like download. Because I I it is. It's it's like, oh, so it looks the same. On some level, it even, I mean, feels the same in that, like in the same way that fear and anxiety can feel this as work, can feel the same as working out. Right? Like your body has a physical, visceral response to that. But all three of those things have different meanings and feel different. Maybe it's mentally and emotionally. Like physically, they feel very much the same, but mentally, emotionally, spiritually, they feel completely different. And I think that's what we're talking about here is like we're really, we're really sort of unpacking the the layers of how it can look and feel on outside versus on the inside versus, you know, just in any given choice. And that's it. It's choice. I was just uh had a lot going on, and I had a friend say to me, Michelle, you know you have choice, right? I was like, I actually do. I'm actually really leaning hard into that, and I'm good with the choices I'm making, and I'm gonna need to plug in. I just I'm I know I'm gonna need to plug in and I'm plugging in as much as is possible in this moment. And after this moment has passed, and I can go back to my regularly scheduled programming, so to speak, but not programming, living intentionally, which is very much what I did. I was like, I'm gonna need to be really mindful about my choices and how I show up and what my needs are because my parasympathetic nervous system has been off for too long. And I need to bring her back. She needs to come back online, and it's just gonna take me a hot second, and I know that, but I don't, I trust it. I trust it will come back. I just also know that I need time to to foster that.

SPEAKER_01

And what's so great about that is just that it demonstrates what the intimacy you have with yourself, you know, and I mean that you have that you know that energetically, that you can just sense it and yeah, you can you can do the things you need to do get done, and then know that there's also going to be all this extra care that needs to happen as you sort of catch back up to where you were before. You had to, you know, take some downtime. And I what I'm hearing inside of all of this, your message to people to really trust yourself energetically in any moment, right? In any moment that you walk into a room and you feel the energy and like your instincts are correct, especially if you've done healing work. You you know whether you belong there or not. Your day in front of you, you know what you need out of it. You know what you need to give yourself, and and that trust is huge. Is huge.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And I think both of us, as we're speaking today, I think one of the loudest like highlights or like red, like just like lasered in, focused, like flashlight, shining spotlight on is the benefit of getting to know yourself.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, totally, totally. And no matter what, like there was a time when I wanted to know myself, but only the good stuff. I like only know the good things. And I got, I was like, you know what? You don't really know yourself, and you don't really believe in yourself and trust yourself and have true honesty and vulnerability with yourself unless you say, okay, all of this other crappy stuff, all the asshole behaviors are also me. I'm also okay. Like getting to know yourself and accept yourself at all aspects and levels is really great, a great endeavor.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. It's just, yeah. Being able to see the shittiest parts of yourself and understand that we all have them. Like you're not alone in your shittiest parts. If you think you're special, you're you're the only one who has that shitty thing. It's like we all have them. I don't care who you are, you have them. And to be able to see them and say, okay, now that I know about them, I can still choose to love myself. I can still learn to love that piece of myself, but I also can choose to make a shift and make different choices to evolve it. But there's still gonna be another shitty part. They're just they're all just like healing. There's always gonna be another part to love and heal, and there's always gonna be another part that you see that will exist that you find shitty. It just is, it is a human truth. And if we can accept that about ourselves and love ourselves through that instead of hate, guilt, shame, you know, hide, feeling a need to hide because oh, no one can know about that. It's just like, well, maybe no one needs to know about it. It's not their privilege to get to know about it, but you know about it and you can't hide it anymore. Like once you see it, you can't unsee it. You know your yourself, all of you knows.

SPEAKER_01

And hold it close. I mean, I always like I used to think of it like a bus, right? I would I would be on the bus and all of my crappy things are on the bus too. And I can stop the bus and try to kick them off the bus, but this is never going to work. And it just stalls me and keeps me stuck. It's really about saying, like, look, I see you. I always think like a yellow school bus with like really rowdy kids. It's like, okay, I see you, you know, bitchy Stacy back there. Like, I you can be on the bus, like you're allowed to ride along with us, but you're not sitting in the driver's seat. Like, I'm going to drive and you may be here, and I don't need to stop and try to get rid of you. I don't need to, I almost think that like those parts of ourselves that are our, you know, have the worst behaviors are gonna act up a lot more if we start to tell them, like, you're out of here. It's when we're oh yeah, hey, I see you are trying to solve a problem. The and and we can solve it a different way, but you know, I see you. It's I mean, in some ways, it's just back to loneliness again. That part doesn't want to feel lonely either. Right. Right. Yes, amazing.

SPEAKER_02

I feel like we have covered a ton of grounds today. I know. This keeps happening, Michelle. I know it's so good. I is there uh do you feel like we have a beautiful bow to put around this conversation? I feel like I feel like we can keep going forever. And also I feel like we've given a lot to chew on and digest. And again, I just want to remind like whatever resonates with you, just take that one little seed or two little seeds and play with those. Don't this is not a playground where you have to go in and explore every piece of equipment. This is just like take what resonates with you and leave the rest. And if nothing resonates with you, that's okay.

SPEAKER_01

Like I think I think that's where we should leave it. I mean, honestly, like anytime you go anywhere where you just feel uh overwhelmed by the amount of stuff coming at you, whether it's like a course you're taking or a book you're reading or a podcast you're listening to, take the one thing, you know, that feels like today this is gonna be the thing that really like I'm gonna germ, you know, I'm gonna digest and give yourself time to digest and don't feel, you know, all of this is waiting for you when you're ready for it. So I think that's the perfect way to end right there. Beautiful.

SPEAKER_02

I love it. Thank you so much. I so appreciate you.

SPEAKER_00

Great pleasure. Please invite me back again.

SPEAKER_02

I will. You're welcome anytime. This was great. Thank you so much. Have a great day.

SPEAKER_01

Uh, you want to say how they find you? Oh, yes. Uh, anywhere with my name, my name is Stacy Rockline. Uh, no E in Stacy, and Rockline is spelled like L E I N. Um, I've got a new book, Forgive Without an Apology, out. You can find it at Amazon and as Audible too. But you can find me everywhere, mostly active on YouTube. So lots of little videos there to help eradicate loneliness, which is my mission. Awesome. I love it. Thanks, Stacey. Yeah, absolutely.