Hypothetically Intentional

Logic Meets Magic: Navigating Alchemy, Faith, and Infinite Possibilities with Shylla Webb

• Michelle Aalbers • Season 4 • Episode 7

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What if the very things that exhaust you are just invitations to change how you are dancing with life? 

In this episode of Hypothetically Intentional, I sit down with my friend Shylla Webb of Inner Matter for a beautiful, messy, and deeply grounding conversation about what happens when logic meets magic and human meets divine. Shylla shares her journey from navigating childhood grief and a rigid religious framework to realizing that true faith isn’t about forcing black-and-white answers—it’s about leaning into infinite possibilities. 

Together, we explore how to discern the difference between your highest self and your egoic mind, the profound practice of letting go of what no longer serves your capacity, and why shifting from a "grind" mentality into a state of flow changes absolutely everything. If you’ve been feeling frozen by choices, stuck in the hustle, or afraid to step into the unknown, this episode is your reminder to extend the same grace to yourself that you so freely give to the rest of the world. 

"Why grind when you can flow? If it’s not a hell yes, it’s a hell no." 


Connect with Shylla:

Facebook:
https://www.facebook.com/InnerMatter

Website:
https://innermatter.net

LinkedIn:
https://www.linkedin.com/in/shyllawebb/

Send us Fan Mail

This podcast is provided for educational, informational, and entertainment purposes only and does not constitute providing professional medical advice, diagnosis, treatment, or professional healthcare services.

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Music Credit Through Season 3 Episode 41
Title: Ebb and Flow
Author: Fabian Measures https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Fabian_Measures/
Source: Free Music Archive https://freemusicarchive.org/music/Fabian_Measures/Singles_Album/Ebb_and_Flow_1829/
Licence: CC BY 4.0 https://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/


SPEAKER_00

Hi, and welcome to Hypothetically Intentional, where we ask the question what if we set intentions with everything we do? I'm your host, Michelle Albers, and today I have Shiloh Webb of Inner Matter. Welcome, Shila. Thank you so much for having me, Michelle.

SPEAKER_02

I'm excited to be here.

SPEAKER_00

I'm excited to have this conversation on the mic. You and I have conversations often. Not as often as I like, perhaps, but likewise. But when we do have conversations, uh, we just spoke briefly before we hit record, and they tend to be exactly what we were talking about, or what you mentioned as talking about like the human and the divine. Because I talk about like when human meets divine, or when like you braid the two together, when they become integrated, like life just gets completely different. And so that's my intention today is to explore with you. I want to be playful and curious about how that shows up for you and how that might show up for me and how it might support a listener.

SPEAKER_02

All right, let's do it.

SPEAKER_00

So I think I want to start with a question, which might be too broad, but I'm gonna go there and we can we can zip it in or zoom it in if we need to. Have you always is a strong word, but it's the way I'm gonna phrase it. Have you always had an awareness of like human and divine and and been playful within them? Or did you was it off for a while, quote unquote, and then sort of came to be for you?

SPEAKER_02

It was definitely off for a while and came to be for me. So I believe that kids are just naturally spiritual. I believe that they're very playful, right? Intuitive, um, very creative, which I believe the higher level of creativity is our part of our spiritual side that comes through us, comes through our human bodies and our human selves. And um, so you have that. I was raised Catholic, and um, so I was raised that I had a guardian angel always watching after me and to call upon that angel to support me anytime in need and always, you know, to turn and pray to God. Um, as I was little, I grew up in a campground going out to with my family on the weekends. You know, in Minnesota, you can only go out during the summer months, the spring, spring to fall. Um, and we had access to 1200 acres of woods, and I would just navigate out there and just kind of roam and all by myself, which most kids aren't going to do that. But I just always found such peace when I would do that and you know, just go off for like an hour, take a break from my friends. And um, so you know, looking back at it now, to me, that was a very spiritual practice to connect with nature and just be by myself and and really just be. And I would kind of hear a lot, like downloads, right? Just get insight into things or a feel into certain things, um, but not realizing it. And then I had lost my stepdad to cancer when I was 13. And so that that was a time where I think through all the grief and just navigating teenage world and trying to stay in school, you know, and trying to keep up with life. Um, the spiritual side was active in the sense of um, you know, I'd have experience or phenomena of him after he passed, whether it was a conversation in my dreams, and then my niece had very similar um dream that same night, and she was only two when he passed away, and here I was 13. Um, so things like that, that like, gosh, there is this really a coincidence. So and as you go on and you have more and more of these experiences, I came to be like, no, there's no way that this was a coincidence. Yeah. But at first, you know, you find yourself the human side, my brain, my ego with second guess, or just kind of brush it off. Um, yeah. So throughout my 20s, I had kind of lost it. But yeah, my friends would, you know, bring their boyfriends to me and ask me to read them or like tell me what you know about them. And I would just go with my gut and follow that and um, you know, question God in that time just because how how can you bring such devastating loss if God if God exists, why does this happen? Why does so much pain happen to a person and families, you know, that I saw experience my own family going through and becoming more aware of everything, you know, the pain that people were feeling in society. And then yeah, coming out of that side. And as I developed more, then all of a sudden it was just like, whoa, this is all very spiritual. And um, just the intuition unlocked fully. I would say, probably more into my 30s. Um, it just started little glimpses of it here and there. Again, still thinking it's like the framework of psychology and understanding grief. And, you know, I was working as a uh teacher, working primarily with students with emotional behavioral disorders. So that it was just like making those inner connections of social emotional learning and human behavior have a master's in human behavior. So to me, it was connecting all the dots of what school had taught me. Um, but now looking back on it, I'm very clear in that it was more of like the intuition that popped in that then I sought out the learning for it, right? The evidence behind it, um, the textbook knowledge to confirm that.

SPEAKER_00

And the human need for that, right?

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, right. The egoic need. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So, and now I believe it's all we have the both and always happening.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah. That's so do you still find yourself in nature feeling, I don't know, like, is nature a catalyst for you in your divine downloads? That's what I heard you say. Is like when you go out there, you kind of get those intuitive hits and have these understandings, or like this, or is that like, I mean, yes, nature can be, but also it doesn't matter where you are.

SPEAKER_02

It doesn't matter where I am now. Um, I would say, depending on what what it is, um, if I need grounding and peace, that's where I go for nature. Yeah. Solitude, you know, solitude for me, like a deep, profound level of solitude really comes when I'm out in nature.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah. And it's it's a moment where I just I feel like I try um I would say that I I get into more of my true essence of like curiosity and seeing the beauty and even just kind of the ugliness, right? Or to find so much beauty in in the weeds that are growing alongside, you know, the road or yeah. As you know, watching the beauty that happens that comes with change, right? That nature just naturally so so does on its own. And we don't have to think about that and how profound it it comes back to my own life and life lessons and all that.

SPEAKER_00

That's such a I love that connection. Well, because I just think human nature, at least in my experience, we don't super love change, like change kind of freaks us out, and yet nature's doing it all the time, and we love and appreciate all that, but we don't call it change, you know, yeah, but it is even yeah, it's a dying and birth rebirth all the time.

SPEAKER_01

Especially if you live in Minnesota and you go through the winter, you clearly, it's so obvious that it's happening, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Right. Yeah, I just think it's like I see nature as divine, you know, like it feels very like no one's no one, no one's controlling it. It's happening in it's happening innately. Like if the conditions are right and the alchemy is there, this is gonna happen. But it it happens consistently, but it's still change. And if the alchemy gets quote unquote ruined, not in align with that particular plant, let's say, for example, then it won't happen. Something, you know. So I just think there's so many comparisons we can make with nature and humanity, but then there's also like this that human side that wants to unbraid the human and divine and resist, resist, resist. Right. Uh, that which is quote unquote natural, but I say that in a loving way, not in a guilty, shamey way. But I just I love that you started with nature.

SPEAKER_02

Well, yeah, yeah. And just based on what you said, just the purification process that happens so naturally in nature. And I can think of this morning, I was out, I've taken a liking to succulent plants lately. And a friend of mine from um another state had gifted me some to bring back into my home and and grow. And he's got this beautiful succulent arrangements around his pool area, and I just have loved it. So he gifted me just a couple little leaves. You stick them in dirt and you see what happens. And so for the past year, I've been nurturing these little leaves that you know looked like they were half dead at one point in the winter time here. Um, you know, even though they're sitting in pots and inside, but all of a sudden they have blossomed, and these succulents are getting huge to a level of you don't see them that big here in Minnesota, to be honest. That's cool. And I was just out watering them and I noticed underneath some of these bigger ones, there's the dead leaves, and I just pulled them right off, right? Because we know that it will strip away from the nutrients um that the plant really needs and what it needs to take in if we keep the dead ones. Um, and I also noticed that some of my flowers that I had planted this year, they're automatically deadheading themselves. So they're releasing. They're releasing the dead stuff, the what no longer serves them, right? And I think of a human now, all of a sudden, my human self does not like to get rid of things as quickly, right? And so naturally and so gracefully. I a plant does not think twice about what needs to go, nor do I think twice about pulling the dead flower off or the dead leaf, um, because I know that that's exactly what it needs in order to grow and thrive. Yeah, it's actually supportive.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, be the very best that it can be. But why? Why don't I do this in my own life? Yeah. Why do I cling to that dead leaf or that dead branch?

SPEAKER_00

And yeah, let me make it perfectly clear. I'm not saying I'm any different. Like I'm not saying, oh no, I love all these, the process that is um braiding or even just seeing the human and the divine. Because I think there is something about earlier or something you said, I can't even remember specifically what it was, but you said something that really led me to believe that you had you were in a moment where your highest self, your divine self, was holding space for your humanness, so to speak. And like that connection is such a it's such a beautiful gift when you can get there, but we can't always get there. Sometimes it's just, oh, this is all about the human experience right now. Okay.

SPEAKER_02

Well, okay. I I have chills right now. I I believe that we get there when we can recognize it's all about the human self right now, and we can just do a simple request to God or whatever the higher power is for that person, right? Um, again, I was raised Catholic, taught to talk, turn to my guardian angel. And I I believe my guardian angel has a whole host of angels assigned by God, you know, on behalf of me now today. I'm not always raised, but um we can turn to that and actually ask to be brought to our higher self. Being brought out of the humanness, right? And when I get locked into my humanness, it usually means that I am actually lacking faith.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And that's what it always comes back to.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Yeah. I'm just chewing on that. Because that's, I mean, I mean, it makes sense, right? Just even by default. Like if you if you're not asking or if you're not connecting, even if you're not, even if it's about connection, forget the asking part. If you're just connecting to trust, to lean into the faith, to to understand and accept that there's a higher power or higher powers with you, whatever your beliefs are, um, that is a that is a lack of something if you if you if you're not there, if you're not in a state where you can or even think to do that. You know, I think that intention is such a powerful piece of navigating, well, all of it. But because like, here's the other thing. It's like we are here to have a human experience. I believe we're here to have a human experience. And sometimes when you really um get understand the language of your soul, I guess I'll say it that way, and you get that divine piece. Sometimes it's easy to like bypass the human experience and just be like, oh no, I'm all divine for a hot second here. And it's like you really need the fusion of both. And that alchemy to bring it back to that word, is it can be really tricky. But I'm so grateful that it's there. I feel so blessed to I don't know. I just like where logic meets magic, human meets divine, braid them together, integrate. Like it's it's all here for us. It's just how are we dancing? How are we dancing? Maybe that's just period. Question mark.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, do we have the awareness of it and where we're locked in, right? And whether or not I don't, I don't know, I use balance, the word balance, very cautiously here.

SPEAKER_00

Cause I I think that's why I like alchemy.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Because balance implies 50-50, and alchemy is like, oh, we don't know how many parts there are, but we know there's a specific, maybe several specific examples that could take us somewhere like we're meant to go. But it's not it's never 50-50.

SPEAKER_02

No, no, it never is, and yeah, I think we even get locked in like when the human side, right, perseverates on a problem, and it's the problem that really drains us and depletes us, and all of that. We we think that there's only one solution, and that we'll cling on to that one solution, right? But the reality is the solutions are infinite, yes, they always are, and I mean that's how people like Thomas Edison, Albert Einstein, that's how they you know even began. Carl Jung even created what they created, right? To to lead the human human way, right? But I think sorry, go ahead. No, they were always willing to explore and consider something else.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and I think I think when I landed in the place of really not just knowing and understanding, but actually accepting that there actually are infinite possibilities. When I landed in that place where I I understand that now, like I get it. Um, that I feel like the transition to getting to that place was really messy for me because I I was resistant. I prefer a yes, no, thank you. Do you know what I mean? I feel so much sober. Well, yeah, and it's so much easier because it's just like, oh, here's my yes, I'll go do that thing. Here's my no, I won't do that thing, or maybe I'll risk it and see what happens. But like it's my choice, and there's only two, and that's so much less overwhelming than the possibility that they're infinite. But now that I've landed in a place where I really, I mean, I've experienced it. I've experienced where my human wanted one thing, and then Divine said, no, this is better, better. I don't love that word, but the this is actually for you in a new and different way that your human couldn't even have dreamed. And it's it is better in my frame, in my human language. And so once that happened enough times, right? I was like, oh, this yes, no shit is like, no, thank you. But this infinite possibilities is like, well, no matter which way I go, I'm gonna learn something, A. And B, there's blessings on all throughout all of it. It's I don't know. I just, but I think it's such a hard thing. And I think sometimes just I guess I'm gonna say clients, but like people who come, whether it be for a spiritual or uh, you know, mentorship or you know, tarot or Reiki or any of those things, they're looking for definitive answers. I'm like, but what if everything's infinite? What if what if there isn't a definitive answer? Like, I might not be the practitioner for you if you're looking for me to tell you what it is, because I don't know, and neither do you, right? There's not an it, there's a them or a many plethora.

SPEAKER_02

Yep, yeah, yeah. There's so much danger in locking into only one and a definite answer, right? If I like the movie Butterfly Effect, I don't like the darkness that's behind Butterfly Effect, but if you've seen it, it's just one little small thing changes and the rest, the entire ending changes, right? It alters everything. And I do believe that we are operating in that profound of a system and that delicate and gentle, you know, um, system that if one thing does change, everything changes. And I also believe though, that no matter what path I take, it will get me to my higher self.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, or at least it has the potential to, yeah. I mean, it depends on if you choose it or not, right? Or if you if it is I mean, I I don't I that sounds a little guilty, shamey, and I hate that. Like, I'm that's not where I'm going with that. I just mean like sometimes we do close off. We actually demand a yes-no. We say there's only one and we believe it in all of our being, and whether that's fear or programming or whatever reason it might be that exists, and I think that free will thing is, I don't know. When I first started my journey, I feel like it was overwhelming for me and just took me down. I was like frozen in like the just too many choices. But now that I, I don't know, I've just landed in a different, I have a different relationship with it now, and now I just see it as opportunity and like we'll see, and okay with the unknown. And I'm not saying I'm always good and like not fearful or whatever, but I also think just there's something about that, like there's so many choices and there's so many possibilities. And if I believe I'm divinely guided and I have a whole divine counsel, then who am I to like get so stuck in my humanness that I can't take a step toward something that I don't fully understand yet? I don't know, yeah, I just it's such a fascinating thing.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, well, and I okay, so I do believe that there's the paradox playing out with it as well. So if I look at my bank account, it's legit, whatever the numbers are, right? Yeah, yeah. That's in in some sense, you know, there might be some waiting to balance out for that day or you know, withdrawing, but usually with the digital world, it's always just exact as it is. That's a very black and white response.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

But how I generate that money or what's behind that money could be infinite, right? The possibilities in order for me to generate more or for me to lose it, because that is also there. Yeah. Um, and and so I think that sometimes we have to acknowledge that that there are some things that are just very black and white. If we look at the law and how they but that's the human side operating, right? Yeah, the law is the law and it's set, and yet you look you look around everywhere, and people are finding the loopholes of the law. That's showing you that there are more possibilities than what it states in black and white language. I think that that just offers us that um the possibilities behind that really are infinite.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. And I think the other thing I I think the other thing I want to make really clear is that like I'm not saying that we're walking on this fluid foundation that doesn't feel stable and that everything is, you know, unknown and you know, whatever. I I'm not I'm not claiming that at all. But I do find it fascinating that when we can lean into, yes, there's some things that we're really comfortable with that we kind of know if A, then B, and that's how the human world works. But also there's there's miracles and there's possibilities, and there's, I mean, gosh, sometimes it's just one simple prayer, one simple thought, or one simple perspective shift that can, I mean, create a new version of your free will choices that change everything.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, for sure. I mean, just even one slight conversation, you know, one I shouldn't say slight, one meaningful conversation with a person can completely change the direction of maybe a major life decision that I was going to decide this, and instead I, you know, chose something else just because of how profound that conversation was.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

It's never definite, and there's always um the possibilities that there's always a door that will open possibilities available to us.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Gosh. Okay, so I have a question that is related but a little bit shifting gears. Are you cool with that? Oh, for sure. Because I think it would be interesting and perhaps helpful to talk about like how do you know which voice it is, right? Like, how do you how do you know it's your divine download versus your human ego or just humanness, human experience, um, that that's giving you the vibes, so to speak?

SPEAKER_02

Hmm, that's a great question. And sometimes that's really hard to know.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

Um I well, for one, I think it it becomes a little bit easier when um you know, so if I'm seeking an answer, I usually will do that through prayer um and asking God to help me see it through God's eyes and the way that in which God would intend for my life. Um, and sometimes I have to go back and say, I'm still not getting it, I'm still not hearing anything, and maybe that's intentional, you know, like yeah, my conversation with God. Um, and then I will go. On and you know, there are times where I will request for it to be made so obvious I can't ignore it. Um then and and usually it'll be in a way that I would never even think of to do and really challenges my um there's times where situations have come up or answers that come through for me that challenge my entire being, right? Especially my level of safety. Oh and and what's required there is faith, the leap of faith, right? To just go ahead and do that, and then that is more of that's what God has intended for me.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think yeah, do you think there's a step before the leap of faith? Because I think in order to be able to take the leap of faith, you have to have the confidence that you're listening to the right part, right?

SPEAKER_02

Do you know what I mean? Right, right. Yeah, and so you had asked, like, I was gonna say there's been the little things in life. Um, how do I know if it's a download or if it's just the human self? It's usually where I'm gonna feel it in my body that it comes through. It's still somewhat of a language for me, or like sometimes it's just this inner knowing, right? The inner knowing that doesn't have a language, but it just drives me towards something, pulls me towards um a particular response that I know. I also look at the fruits of if I do this, what are the potential fruits of what's coming of that? That's how I know it's more divine. Um, is it creating love? Is it creating growth? Is it creating opportunities for oneness? Um, does it open the door to you know parts of joy, um, higher level of faith, bringing me closer to God? To me, those are all the divine. Um, if it's locked in more my brain and I seem like I can explain things, that's how I feel like it's more me and my ego side or um what I've learned through the human self.

SPEAKER_00

That's an interesting distinction. I don't know that I've ever heard anybody explain it exactly like that. The whole, like, if I can explain it. Yeah. You know, uh, because I've heard people say, you know, well, if I'm, you know, attached to it or thinking about it a lot or trying to understand it or like that kind of stuff. But the way you just said that was so simple and something like really great to ponder. Like if you're listening and you don't know what your clairs are, like how you receive your intuitive guidance, or if you don't know like what your what your state feels like when you're praying versus when you're uh you know, like in that that craving, you know, human thing.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

That's yeah, and it's really hard. I think that sometimes, I mean, if um are you familiar with Saint Teresa of Avala, the interior castle?

SPEAKER_00

I'm sure I've talked about I do feel like you've talked about it, but I'm not super familiar, no.

SPEAKER_02

Okay. So the interior castles basically the journey in which the soul can go through in life. Um and and she talks a lot about how um in her work she saw how God would place a particular person or situation in a person's life in order for their soul to further develop and go along to their human self develops, you know, into a more spiritual self, comes closer to God. Um, but but in those experiences, right, there's gonna be a lot of human explanation for that. Um, it might be, you know, financial devastation, um, it might be the loss of materialistic things, right? To recognize so that we can we're brought upon that uh that uh direction or that journey to recognize that uh it's never really the things that we need. That is not our true essence. And that, and if you look at like you know, the journey of the apostles, you know, with Jesus, what did Jesus say, get rid of everything, sell everything, and come along with me? Because you need nothing in order to receive everything and to have everything. Yeah, and yeah, and some of those teachings are all about that. Like we as humans, we get so locked into the materialistic things, the things that we can feel, the things that we can see, the things that we can smell, all of that, and then the spiritual journey is then to release all of that, and then yeah, except for like you need to eat and things, you know, some basic, but yeah, you got to take care of your human vessel.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, that that's a thing you do, right? Yeah, yeah. It's like the soul is yeah, uh needs the human vessel for this experience until it goes on to the next thing, right? Right. But I just think about like when you're when you're talking about all those things, and I do not have the capacity right now to really truly connect the dots. If it was a different day, maybe, but I'm just thinking about the various studies that I've done, like my yoga teacher training or even like a chat I had on a tour with a monk in Thailand of just like things that they say that like they're the same things you're talking about in Catholicism or Christianity. It's just a different, it's different words to explain the same thing. And I I actually like love that. Um, because I just want to make it clear to our listeners, like I'm not attached to or like we're not claiming that you have to believe it exactly in this way with exactly this language. We're just like using the language that's comfortable for us because there's a million different ways you can say it and a million different ways you can have that faith, and it doesn't have to be exactly how we're defining it. Because I don't know. I feel like I grew up in a in a house where it was very much defined and there it was very rigid. And I think that um, and I leaned into that hard, and it then when I started sort of opening to other possibilities or um just ways of thinking about it, I'm not even saying I completely veered all the way off, you know, my my faith or anything like that. I'm just saying I was so restricted that I had I had so much fear. Um and if I would have kept in that resistance and that fear place, I wouldn't, I wouldn't be living my purpose right now. And I believe without a doubt that I'm living my purpose, without a doubt. And I have quote unquote more, I have the ability, maybe I'll say it, maybe this is the best way to say it. I have the ability to actually lean into my faith versus just go through the motion. Um and so my whole life has changed because of that one quote unquote little thing, but it was a huge thing for me.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. I'm so I'm so glad that you mentioned though how um we're not trying to push one particular way or one particular practice at all, and and and how this language changes um you know across like religious constructs or you know, spiritual constructs, however, however you want to frame it. Because I'm not locked in Catholic, is what my first um framework was. Yeah. For you know, religion is different than spirituality, but they're you know, religion is the tool to I I think um religion is the tool to teach people, the human self, to be more spiritual and connect with their their higher selves, their spirituality. Um, and there are very many different tools and languages around that. Um, yeah, and I'm not locked into one either.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I know that. And that's why I don't know, Alison. I just had that. It was a download. It's like, hey, just mention that like we're using words that are comfortable to us, but you can insert your own words, like whatever that looks like for you. Um, because I think religion can be, you know, a way to get us to our spirituality, but like for me, it was also a block to it for a long time. So I just think there's a million ways, you know, to climb the mountain, so to speak, and and uh, but also I think the human experience is such that there's only so many different ways we can experience this thing we call life. Um and we're more we're more similar than we might, you know, consider, I guess.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, yeah. I mean, when you look at the laws of spirituality, right, they're pretty universal.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Well, and that's I think the thing I found most fascinating. Like when I sort of shifted into like, okay, well, I just want to learn more. And it wasn't even necessarily about, well, it definitely wasn't about religion. It was more about I was learning all these living traditions. There was Thai massage, there was Reiki, there was yoga, there was, you know, even Zentangle. I mean, on some level, they all brought me to my own inner like sanctuary, so to speak. But I just remember thinking there's so many similarities, they're just using different words, but this isn't different than what I learned growing up, and this isn't different than what I learned from my friend's house and what they studied. And I don't know, I just find it all so fascinating.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, it is it is very fascinating. And and I think again, it just comes back to opening the door of um the dimensions of life that are probably, you know, are beyond the human experience, our everyday experience.

SPEAKER_03

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And learning how to integrate that into our human world, which is really hard to do. It's not an easy, not an easy practice at all, which I mean you had talked about at the beginning of our of our talk on this.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. It's funny because when you said that, I was like, yeah, and that's that's like that's a challenge. It's there is nothing easy about it. I mean, there are pockets of ease, uh, but I feel like those pockets of ease for me didn't come until well into my journey of. I mean, I there was so many moving parts for me. And I I would I would guess, I guess, that if this is the way it goes for most humans. I mean, I had my human physical healing journey, and then I had my divine spiritual healing journey, and then I had sort of like a combination of the two. I don't know, it just felt like it was all happening at once, and for a very long time, it I was just confused, I think. Confused and wounded. Um yeah. But it's but I feel like, I mean, isn't that isn't that it? Isn't that the journey of transformation and healing and self-awareness and empowerment and self-trust and worth and all of those things? I mean, it's complicated.

SPEAKER_02

It is complicated. And I I don't know. I don't know if it has to be, but it seems like um it goes hand in hand that you will be lost, you will it will get really messy, you will be absolutely confused in order to find yourself and find your way. Um in and you have to have one without the other, or you have to have one, one brings the other, right? You can't have one without the other. Um but I know that people, you know, there's there's certain levels to this too, because there are certain things, right? Like the grief of um losing a parent that meant a lot to me and my family system. Those of us that grieved it, we healed and were emotionally uh I would say uh healthier or more mature now today, those that stuffed it behind or just stuffed it in and you know chose things such as going out and um you know partying or things like that in order to deal with it, they never fully dealt with that. And it caused potentially, I mean, along with other things, but it caused some lifelong consequences or consequences. I not I don't want to say lifelong, um until right. Yeah, for some time. It's just like too, like if you ignore a money problem and you try to just dismiss it, all that it's going to eventually catch up with you.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, you can't just wait it out and wait for it to change. Like you have to actively make choices to make it change.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, faith alone isn't gonna do anything. Yeah. We're called creators to take action.

SPEAKER_01

I really're so easy, right? I could just create this.

SPEAKER_00

Well, and I think that's the duality of human and divine, too, because it's like my reality is is like now that I've, you know, a couple decades into my healing, I mean, I can simplify it. I do know how. I mean, I'm writing a book about that, but also it's never gonna feel simple when you're in it, ever. No, but to have the structure and the support and like scaffolding and like the the ways to like, you know, well, if you're willing to try this, this could potentially be helpful for you. And if you're willing to try that, that might actually, you know, move things along at a rapid pace, but maybe that's not your pace and like the the amount of discernment that you have to have. And I think I don't know, the download I'm getting is just like I think I started in a place where I was like, I just want someone to tell me what to do and I'll do it. Oh and the reality is it's never gonna work that way.

SPEAKER_02

No, because it's such an individual journey, yeah. Discernment and your connection with you know, God or whatever your source is, it's all very individual. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And again, there's some universal experiences, some universal laws at play. But how how each one experiences it, communicates, receives the downloads, all of that, that's a highly individual um experience. And so I think that's important because it brings us to um, you know, there's gonna be a lot of ambiguity with it. And yet it's important to connect with people that have experience with a lot of it, right? A lot of different forms of it, or continue to um believe in yourself and your own experience and also seek out, you know, some spiritual guidance with that. It's not a journey to do alone, and yet it can feel very lonely at the time. Um, because the average person isn't always going to understand the level, the deeply profound spiritual experiences.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, for sure.

SPEAKER_02

I think I receive it.

SPEAKER_00

That's and I think it's such a duality and an oxymoron and a conundrum, even that like we're literally not meant to do this alone, and yet we're the only one who can do it.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Like that is such a conundrum. Because it can feel really lonely because you do have this understanding that, like, oh, I'm the only one who can make this decision, I'm the only one who can actually do this work, I'm the only one, I'm the only one, I'm the only one. I say that not from a selfish ego way, but from a like a holy shit, I don't want to do all this. This is terrifying, and I certainly don't want to do it alone. Um, but then the flip side of that is you're divinely guided, you're never alone, you have earth angels, you have like all these, you know, moving parts and variables in our humanness that do support our journey. But if you're not willing to do it for yourself, no one else can ever do it for you.

SPEAKER_02

Oh, absolutely, absolutely. And I yeah, so I think it is really important to find communities of people that and and be careful of leaders that say it's just one way. Oh, 100% or that it's not possible. You want the leaders that's going to encourage exploration, right? Um, and yet let you know what boundaries uh to be aware of, right? And what what you can access of your own, um, of your own free will and what you can exercise. Um, I and I think finding communities that have been through this journey and been through the messiness of it, you know, and and people that have gone through, you know, you think of like detachment was one of the toughest things for me.

SPEAKER_00

Oh my gosh.

SPEAKER_02

Um and probably because I had an abandonment wound from you know, losing my stepdad the way that I did, um, you know, or even like the least resistance, the law of least resistance was really tough for me at one point because I was raised, you know, in my 20s that um I should, you know, believe in the grind. And if I grind, it'll happen. If I push, it'll happen, all that until I get into like my 30s and 40s and I realize, oh my gosh, all this effort that I'm I'm spending and uh you know creating and all that, it's being pushed back at me. It's no longer happening fast anymore. It's yeah, it's actually like it's creating more problems, right? And so the more that I backed off of it and led with faith, but still took action, but not from an egoic sense, it was more from a graceful sense. The next thing I knew is holy cow, goals were being achieved so much faster than I could have even I even thought was possible to the point where it kind of scared me. Yeah, it got me to like whoa, whoa, whoa, I'm not quite ready for this, you know. Like, or now I'm developing a whole new level of prayer to God. Like, okay, let's slow this down a little bit. I, you know, but if it comes to you, it means that you are ready. And and it took me a while to really get into a graceful flow with that.

SPEAKER_00

Um yes, I don't know that I a hundred percent think that when it or if it comes to you, you're it means you're ready. Sometimes, if it comes to you, it's like if you're in actively in the process of learning how to discern for yourself, sometimes it's like coming you to give you an opportunity to actually discern if you're ready or not.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, I could see that. I also think that um just because you're ready doesn't mean you're um 100% all in and 100% ready. It might be ready for growth. You're ready for it.

SPEAKER_00

I also don't believe you have to be ready. I believe most and we're not.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, that has happened to me several times.

SPEAKER_00

I mean, spiritually ready and human ready are different things, right? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's amazing. It's so funny. You were talking about grinding, and I had a I had a healing session uh once. I even saying that with those words sometimes are crazy. But it was like I was for myself doing some healing, and I went to a practitioner who did something different that I'd never done before, and it was really cool. But he said a couple things and I've combined them and I heard it in my head when you said it, and so I'm just gonna share it. Um, he said, why grind when you can flow? That was one of the things he said. And then the other thing he said is if it's not a hell yes, it's a hell no. And they go beautifully together. It's like, why grind when you can flow? If it's not a hell yes, it's a hell no.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. So the the I like that if it's not a hell yes, then it's a hell no. Um, one thing I have found though is sometimes my human self gets caught up in that one. Yeah. My ego likes that one sometimes. Yeah, yeah. Oh, yeah. When it's when it's there to like, you know, protect me or safe.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, a hundred percent. Both actually, both of those for me can be a little too uh human-y, but when you do when I take them in like their purest, like at my soul level language and and just unpack it, it's like I hear it in my head as a download when I'm grinding too hard. It's like, what are you doing? You you're not, you're just in your ego right now. There's nothing that you're doing that's flow. Yeah, take a step, pause, you know. And why are you doing this thing if it's a hell no? I don't believe everything has to be a hundred percent hell yes. Like, I think that's pretty an unrealistic expectation, actually. But I think if it's a hell no, what the heck am I doing it for then?

SPEAKER_02

You know, right, right, right. Well, and sometimes it um, yeah, I hear you. I hear you. I'm just thinking about that phrase life things. Yeah. Yeah. There's sometimes, you know, I I don't want to um, you know, do things maybe for family or to help things out. To be quite, I'm just gonna be very honest with you. Like my ego will start yapping in my mind, and um, you know, like, oh, I gotta go do this again, or I gotta go to another sporting event again. It's it's kind of like going to the gym. I gotta go to the gym again. I don't absolutely want to do that, you know.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02

And then once I get there, or what's the what's the bigger thing there? What's the bigger value there is me connecting with family and deep connecting and my kids always knowing that I'm there. So then that brings me to the hell yes, right? But at one moment in a moment of that situation, I'm a hell no, like, or just dreading helping, you know, or even like a father. My father's declining right now with um his needs and you know, his his independence in life, and he's still doing really well considering. Um, but I have to step in and help with things more than what we've ever had in life. And so the roles are changing a little bit. And so, yeah, there's some disruption there for me. Yeah, and at the end of the day, I'll leave and I'll be like, oh, and and I have to sometimes intentionally say it. I'm so glad I got to support him with this. I'm so glad that I got this opportunity to have that time with him. Because what if it were his last day?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, I think that's a slippery slope for me. Like to think in that way is a slippery slope for me. But I love the things that you're saying are so important to like address language and your thoughts, and like they're there for you to use your discernment. Like sometimes you getting that that angst of going to do something is because it's not actually in your integrity to go do the thing. And other times it's like, well, hang on, do I need to pause? And like, am I seeing the whole picture, or is my perspective just hyper focused, focused on victimhood, let's say? And I actually am meant to do this, you know what I mean? And so I just think it's a such a slippery slope. But what I heard in what you were saying is like you you hear that language and you use your discernment, and then you make the highest choice for the best and highest good, you know, to your capability on any given day. Some days we don't get that right, you know, some days it's smarter than others, so to speak. And I'm not in right and wrong person, I'm more of like, oh, let's just, you know, I don't like the guilty, shamey words because those used to eat away at me. Um, so I'm really careful about how I use my language, especially with myself, um, also with others, just because you never know where they're coming from. But I just think it's so easy to get into that, go into those old patterns. Like for me, I can go into the yep, I'm gonna overgive at the expense of myself. And it's like, no, no, I'm gonna dance the line between regret and resentment and figure out where I land.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah, that level of um aware. Awareness is so important, especially before you commit, right? And even once you do commit, it's still okay to say no. It is still it's still okay to renegotiate. And I I was not necessarily raised like that. Um, I remember, I mean, my grandpa he didn't he didn't ever want to sign a contract, he he shook a hand with a verbal agreement, and that's exactly what you adhered to. And yet, as our life is ever changing, and especially with today's society, that things are ever changing, um more so than ever. And what we're locked in um to believe, and what our values are, those should be uh renegotiated, those should be assessed to see if it still aligns with who you are today and where everything falls and how it falls, right? You're taking care of a sick parent, you may not have the time that you used to have to meet up with friends um and you know, go meet them for coffee or things like that. You might not have the ability to make it to every single um game, you know, that your kids have or yeah, whatever it is. There's other things that have to be compromised.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, capacity changes as life changes. And I think I never used to honor my capacity. I just did whatever I did all the things as best I could, and that was not very good. That was not a good way to live.

SPEAKER_02

Well, yeah, I do it too. I I still do it. Even having this level of awareness doesn't mean that life is gonna magically change, right? Um, I I grew up, my parents, um, and I don't have I have great relationship with both of my biological parents and very healthy. Um, but I grew up, they didn't really attend my sporting events. And so what do I do now as a mom? I exhaust myself attending almost every single one I can because I never want my kids to feel the way that I felt for some. And right, what what is that? That's my own internal world, my own projection, placing that on to or assuming my kids are gonna have that wound right if I don't show up, that same wound that I had. And the reality isn't true at all. And and so I I get to honor that with my within myself, right? And I honor that with my kids too. Look, if you know, I'm really busy tonight. Are you okay if I don't come to the sporting game? And if they say, yep, I'm totally fine with that, I used to second guess myself. I no longer allow that anymore. I'm just like, yep, then it then it's fine. I mean, the reality is I make it to 95% of their games.

SPEAKER_00

Well, I think we all do that. We all have our wounds and our projections, and I think sometimes we notice them and sometimes we don't. And we show up from look our entire truth in the current moment, right? Whatever that looks like. And sometimes there's well, not even sometimes, often I I have a hard time with always and never, but often we there are wounds in there that we haven't even seen yet. You know, and we're just showing up and in what we know right now. And I don't know, I think we can be so hard on ourselves. And I love what you just said about like I recognize it, I recognize what that is, and now I'm you know navigating it and renegotiating it in a way that works for me and your the goal is for them too, right? I think that's beautiful.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. And just as I ask, you know, for um assistance and helping, helping me see others through the the eyes of the divine, I have started asking for that assistance to be able to see myself that way as well. And I think it's a great question for all of us to ask. Are you giving yourself the level of grace that you will extend to others? Yeah. Are you giving yourself the level of compassion that you extend others? Are you serving yourself at the level in which you will serve others? And not in a selfish way, of course, but we serve ourselves and fill ourselves up so that we can continue to fill other people up and not completely deplete ourselves, like you had said, you know, compromise who you truly are in order just to be accepted or liked, or it's because it's the thing to do. Um it's it's truly, you know, what's in alignment with your true inner essence. So just because you don't want to do it, if it is aligned with your true inner essence, then there probably is a spiritual place there to do that service, right? To be of a servant person. Um, and you'll be, I believe that we are always, we will always receive far more than we ever give on the back end. I just haven't seen it any other way. Yeah. But we don't do it for that expectation either.

unknown

Right.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, right. Slippery slope. No, that's beautiful. This feels like such a great place to wrap up. It just feels like one big mic drop. Like that's such a lovely intention to land on at the end of the podcast. Oh to consider to consider all of those things that you just said. That just feels yeah. Is there anything else you want to share before we wrap it up?

SPEAKER_02

No, I'm gonna leave it right there. I'm gonna trust this. And I do uh well, okay, I will say this. Anyone listening, take what you need and leave the rest.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, yes, that's yes. I hope that's always a thing that people know when they listen to any podcast or hear any, go to any workshop, do anything. I think that's that's the best way to receive life. But even that, if it doesn't resonate with you, leave it alone, not yours, and not mine to put on to you. And it's okay. Absolutely. Oh, thank you so much, Shiloh. This is such a great conversation. Will you tell me? Do you have a website that people can find you on? I just want it to be in the the audio part as well. I'll put it in the show notes too.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah, yeah. Thank you. You can find me on innermatter.net. Um, if you just go there and if you want to um speak with me directly, just fill out a contact form. Otherwise, I'm on various um levels of or platforms, sorry, of social media. Facebook, LinkedIn are my two main ones that I'm usually on. Um, so anyone can send me a message or follow me on those places as well. Beautiful. Thank you so much, Shaila. Oh, thank you so much for having me. This was such a great conversation. I feel like every time we get together, I could just continue going as well and just dive in deeper, explore, and get curious with it all.