Season 2 - EP #2 - Peter Jess

Peter Jess is a highly regarded players advocate of the AFL. Duck, Tony and Peter delve deep into the contemporary issue of concussion in sports, and how nothing is being done about it.

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Transcript

S2E2

[00:00:00] Peter: I'm Wayne 

[00:00:02] Wayne: Carey, and this is The Truth Hurts. Well, welcome to The Truth Hurts, and uh, well, it pleases me with our first guest, Tony, and the reason for that is because this is the biggest topic. in AFL football at the moment in sports one in sport and it is just and it seems it's just getting worse and worse and worse and there's no man that is educated more than the man that we're about to speak to and I'm talking about Peter Jess who is a AFL player advocate he's also he's also got a law degree he's also I think you've said to me before Peter a struggling local accountant all of those different things you wear a lot of different hats but Out of all the people that I've spoken to in regards to concussion, and I have read a lot about it in recent times, and there is no one better read than what you are on this topic, and that's why I think you're a great first guest for The Truth [00:01:00] Hurts this year.

[00:01:02] Wayne: Tell me, where do you think it all sits over the summer? Tony, the AFL, uh, signed a, a deal with a mouth guard company, talking, which, uh, talks about shock. Peter, what do you think of the decision they've made? Well, look, 

[00:01:20] Peter: the whole, you know, paradigm about, um, you know, concussion should be, how do we prevent it?

[00:01:27] Peter: And by giving somebody a, you know, mouth guard to say, well, we're going to miss you. The um, size of the hit defeats the purpose of prevention because what it means is that you think that, you know, concussion becomes an automatic, you know, by product of you playing the sport. Which is, in my view, dumb. I mean, we know that the University of Cincinnati reduced the overall rate of concussion by some, I think over a ten year period, it was reduced to between 70 to 80 percent.

[00:01:58] Peter: Now that should be our target because it is [00:02:00] known. We know what the nine factors were to reduce it. You know, what we are locked in is this paradigm of a science and medicine that has failed. 

[00:02:11] Wayne: But the a FL, they're, they're not saying that this is a, a is an aid to tell you whether a player has concussion or not.

[00:02:18] Wayne: It's simply to say that a player has received a knock with a certain amount of force. Yeah. So that technically it's about the technology to give them information. Mm-Hmm. down the track. Is that, where, is that where it should be? 

[00:02:32] Peter: Well, let's just look at this. We have a hundred players who are suing, you know, the a FL there, 

[00:02:38] Wayne: which are, which are leading that.

[00:02:40] Wayne: Well, 

[00:02:41] Peter: not really, but I've certainly had a lot to, you know, do with it. There are a large number of my players who are in that. Yeah. Um, but How many of the 100? I'd say 30, maybe 40. 

[00:02:51] Tony: And who's the leading, um, legal counsel in this? 

[00:02:54] Peter: Um, I, I'm not sure who the [00:03:00] final, um, you know, barristers are because I'm not involved with anything to do with, um, Margolite lawyers.

[00:03:08] Peter: Gotcha. Um, for a whole range of reasons. 

[00:03:11] Wayne: But, is that, is that number growing? And is that number, and is it going to grow? I mean, we've, we've seen, you know, young Brayshaw who was actually retired from the game. I mean, it, it's just, just signed a massive, uh, massive deal, five year deal, and, you know, receives a knock and, and now his career is, is over.

[00:03:33] Wayne: Is, is it just going to go on and on and on? 

[00:03:36] Peter: Well, you know, my view is it's, I think, that the class action really is a diversion from the truth. Now the truth is, is that we have a game that is a concussion factory. It just doesn't stop. Week in, week out. Now, I've been involved in the sport for over 40 years.

[00:03:54] Peter: And, you know, one of the things that, um, I first noticed, um, [00:04:00] was 20 odd years ago when Macquarie, uh, Professor Paul Macquarie, who, uh, then headed up, you know, the AFL came in and he set up a group called the Concussion in Sports Group. Now, this then was, you know, the aggregation of all the peak bodies throughout the world in a, um, you know, um, collision based sport, uh, forum.

[00:04:21] Peter: And they devolved, uh, certain, you know, return to play protocols. One of them, uh, the initial return to play protocol was that you could return safely to sport after six days of a clinical, you know, concussion. Now, um, that flew in the face of what was happening in the UK where it was a 21 day stand down and a return to play in, you know, 28 days.

[00:04:44] Peter: So he basically then reset worldwide for 20 years the sports concussion agenda. Now, my view is, um, none of which was ever supported by science and medicine. Um, one of [00:05:00] the things that I, uh, unfortunately happened to me was that I, um, was knocked off my motor scooter. So, um, I was diagnosed then as an incomplete paraplegic.

[00:05:12] Peter: So I was unconscious for about 10 to 15 minutes. I fractured three vertebrae in my neck, four in my back, nine broken ribs and a punctured lung and a fractured jaw. Was this with the car? No, this was a motorbike. Not in terms of with a car? Yeah, a car went through a stop sign and ignored my pleas to stop.

[00:05:29] Peter: So as a sort of consequence of that, I no longer ride a motorbike. I've now bought a Sherman tank, and I think I'm a little bit safer. Are there 

[00:05:38] Tony: any ill 

[00:05:39] Peter: effects that are ongoing from that? Yeah. So, what I did, um, I went through all of the traditional medicines, you know, that, um, said that, um, I would, uh, um, be better within, um, four to six weeks, um, that all of my symptoms would, you know, resolve and I would live a [00:06:00] normal life, right?

[00:06:01] Peter: So as things devolved, I found that I lost my balance. So I'd be walking along the street and then suddenly I'd lose my balance. My eyes became light sensitive. Um, I developed tinnitus and eventually went deaf in my right ear. Um, so I had, um, migraines, um, a whole range of issues. So when guys come to see me who have had head traumas, it's a lived experience for me.

[00:06:29] Peter: So I actually know what they're going through and we can, you know, relate. And, you know, they then tell me, well, you know, this is the first time that somebody's been able to explain to them in layman's terms what they're actually going through, you know. Principally, it manifests itself firstly as, you know, behavioural issues.

[00:06:47] Peter: So, you know, I had a whole range of issues with anger management, um, excitability, where you increase your risk taking, and you actually develop a situation, um, because your frontal lobe is damaged, you [00:07:00] actually know that some of the things that you are doing are wrong, but you actually physically and mentally can't stop yourself from doing it.

[00:07:06] Peter: And that appears to be a common trait in guys who have had, um, multiple, you know, concussions. So I, I get it. Um, and then, what I then did, uh, because all of the typical medical and science books, um, said that you're unlikely to, you know, be able to mitigate what had transpired to me. So I then developed my own neuroplasticity research, um, and it took a ten year period where I was able to rewire my brain so I could still.

[00:07:37] Peter: function at a rate, you know, um, which enabled me then to go on and do a whole range of postgraduate things and study neuroscience. I travelled the world, met the world's leading scientists, um, And soon discovered that, um, the, you know, protocols, um, that were developed by, uh, the concussion in sports group, uh, [00:08:00] and Professor Paul McCrory simply didn't match the clinical outcomes.

[00:08:04] Peter: So that meant, um, if I could prove up, you know, clinically that their science and medicine was wrong, we'd have to restate the whole, um, you know, textbooks. So, um, I then used to meet Paul Muir McCrory and I would say to him is that, well, this is a clinical outcome that I'm seeing, not only from me, but from other people, uh, and your um, science and medicine said that it doesn't happen.

[00:08:28] Peter: So either I'm right and you're wrong, and if I'm right, then we're in a lot of trouble because you've misled thousands, if not millions, you know, millions of people into believing that there is no long term damage, there's no structural damage. Um, from, uh, repetitive, um, you know, collisions. 

[00:08:47] Tony: Peter, sorry, can I interject?

[00:08:49] Tony: In terms of the scooter accident itself, I'm assuming you wore a helmet? I did. And was that, was there direct trauma to the head, like whether it be on the ground, to the car? No. 

[00:08:58] Peter: Whiplash? No. [00:09:00] Um, whiplash is a separate, um, situation, right, which what we did, uh, when we were doing the scanning of the players, we found that there was a collateral disease that they were suffering from, which was called, um, um, occipital neuralgia, which was a shearing of the nerve ends at the base of the neck.

[00:09:19] Peter: And that presented with constant headaches, um, migraines, uh, which was a totally separate disease from the, you know, concussions. How, 

[00:09:29] Wayne: how long after a player's career can they start to get effects? I mean, like you said, the science is continuing and, and, you know, every, well, every day, every week now, and we're hearing more and more about it because of, obviously, the seriousness of it.

[00:09:47] Wayne: How long can it stay, I guess, stagnant before you start to get, say, the headaches or the acting out or those things? Can it remain stagnant for a while before that starts to [00:10:00] occur or is it something that just accumulates over 

[00:10:02] Peter: time? What happens is, we know now from the research that the impact on players is dose related.

[00:10:11] Peter: So, uh, with the research we did. Uh, both in the elite and sub elite, we found, uh, unsurprisingly the damage at, uh, the weekend warrior was exactly the same as the guys who played in, you know, the AFL. So, for me, that was a major concern because, um, what we then discovered, um, You know, the principal manifestation, as I said, first instant from guys who had had repetitive, um, uh, traumas was, you know, behavioural issues, which then had a direct impact on the families.

[00:10:44] Peter: And they are the forgotten people in this. Um, it's so distressing to see how, you know, uh, the wives and families, um, are left without any support systems, without any way that they can then, um, get, [00:11:00] uh, some, um, knowledge of what is happening to their partners. And, um, it, it, it's frightening. So is there a, is 

[00:11:09] Wayne: there a test right now?

[00:11:11] Wayne: Um, at a hospital because that you can go into and say well, you know what I'm having these, I'm having these effects, I'm, I'm, you know, I'm getting the headaches or my behaviour is being a little bit more erratic. Is there something you can go in and they can definitively say, definitively say you have that going on?

[00:11:33] Wayne: Well, 

[00:11:34] Peter: look, um, what I found is the most, um, specific. scan is called a Meg scan. Now, um, what I did, I was a guinea pig for, you know, the AFL, um, in their longitudinal study of players. So I went and did all the tests that they did, uh, or that they were telling the players to do. So I did, you know, the fMRI, I did the PET scan, I did the [00:12:00] neurological test, and at the end of it, the, um, uh, Professor Chris Rowe came out and said, Well, we've done all the tests, and it appears as, uh, you're normal.

[00:12:10] Peter: And I said, well, okay, um, let's go and do another test. So I then went and did the MEG scan. The MEG scan showed, out of the 68 points of functionality in my brain, 42 were damaged, so, which then, in the particular four lobes of the brain, we then did a brain map and worked out, well, okay, um, there was damage in all the particular parts, uh, which meant then they would manifest themselves in physical and, you know, behavioural problems.

[00:12:41] Peter: All of which then rang true. So, um, I then went back to Chris Rowe and I said, I don't think your testing regime is fit for purpose. We need to have a multimodality test, uh, that is different to what you're now currently doing. 

[00:12:54] Wayne: So what test, what tests would have young Brayshaw gone and had for it to be determined that he retired?

[00:12:59] Wayne: Would it have [00:13:00] been that 

[00:13:00] Peter: test? What they do is they drive you into a volumetric test to see, um, what the blood flow is through your brain. And, you know, the theory is that if they find slow parts of the transition of the blood through the brain, then that obviously means that there is some damage or you've got scarring.

[00:13:19] Peter: So what happens is, uh, um, the, uh, neuron in the brain are supported by glial scales, cells. Once the glial, uh, cells die off, which is through trauma, they create what's called gliosis, which is this micro shearing and micro scarring of the brain, which slows down, you know, the processing. Do you know the specifics 

[00:13:39] Tony: around Angus Brayshaw and why he retired?

[00:13:41] Tony: No? No. 

[00:13:42] Wayne: Do you, Wayne? No, well, as far as I know, and we, we, I don't believe what I read, you know that. Certainly in a, certainly in a newspaper, that's for certain. But, no I don't, I assume he's gone and had tests. I'm interested and fascinated [00:14:00] by Um, the scarring issue because, you know, when, when we do a shoulder or a knee or a calf or a hammy and we, we know that, you know, scarring or even we go in and do weights, we make the blood.

[00:14:11] Wayne: That's how, that's how you end up with bigger muscles. It's actually scarring that, that just keeps growing and growing and growing and that's how you end up with big biceps. And is that the same with the brain? So once that's scars, does that continue to, to, to grow on top of one another? That, that, that it doesn't go away unless I guess you go in and cut it out.

[00:14:30] Peter: Well, this is a problem, is this, is that, um, glial scars then tend to create, uh, the build up of the tau protein, which is like this, um, Uh, thing that then starts to rot your brain. The worst case that I've got at the moment is a guy who's got frontal, uh, lobal damage both left and right, where, um, his frontal lobe of his brain has tropified almost com completely.

[00:14:58] Peter: His brain now looks like a [00:15:00] dehydrated tomato, um. Did he play AFL or VFL football? Yeah, he played over a hundred games and, um. Are you at liberty to say his name? No. Um, The medical records that were kept during that period showed, uh, he had two or three clinical concussions, um, no idea the number of subclinical concussions.

[00:15:21] Peter: And this is why I've been pushing for a, um, you know, passport. You know, if you don't have a concussion passport, you cannot have a concussion management system. The AFL know this because, you know, in From the 1950s, there was a seminal paper prepared by Thorndyke. Thorndyke said that in his study that if you have three, uh, clinical concussions, you should consider whether you should continue playing or put yourself at risk of a further one.

[00:15:47] Peter: Because in 2008, I read another paper by an American called, um, Uh, Gitz who said that, um, every concussion after the third has a five [00:16:00] times impact on your, um, long-term. Um, uh, your problems with your brain, so, you know. We're sitting here today, and we allow people, you know, to continue to get, um, you know, concussed post three, I think is a complete dereliction of duty.

[00:16:20] Peter: I think that if somebody, um, you know, finished up, um, committing suicide from, uh, you know, the impact of, um, TES, which is the living form of, um, CTE because we can't actually tell CTE till you're dead. So it's called traumatic encephalopathy syndrome, which presents with all of the outcomes of what we find, the guys who've actually got CTE, you know, my view is that, um, if we can then do the correlation with that.

[00:16:50] Peter: and the duty of care of the employer, which is the AFL and the clubs. Well, it could possibly lead to the first case of industrial manslaughter. [00:17:00] What about, 

[00:17:01] Wayne: um, helmets? Because that's the, that's the big topic at the moment. And we look at junior sports and there are, there are some clubs, and I know in Queensland and New South Wales, there's some rugby clubs that all the kids, it's mandatory now to wear helmets and, and it's coming in.

[00:17:17] Wayne: What's your theory on them? Do they do it? Does a helmet help in any way a concussion? 

[00:17:21] Peter: No, it's a complete waste of time. All it does is stop you getting a head cut. Um, what the problem with, you know, concussion, it's about the transfer of, you know, the energy from one, um, part of your body to the other. So when you collide, you create a G force that's got to find a home somewhere and it goes to the softest part of your body, which is your brain.

[00:17:41] Peter: So you have this, um, shaking of your brain. Uh, which creates, um, you know, microshears, which then create, um, you know, microtraumas. And it'd be 

[00:17:50] Wayne: fair to say that that, and as you said before, with your neck and that shock, it's, it's not just a direct head knock that causes this. It can be a [00:18:00] hard body knock, hit in the back.

[00:18:01] Wayne: It could be anything that jars your brain to shake within the fluid that it sits in. 

[00:18:08] Peter: Well, look, all of the research that I've looked at, The biggest study was done in Sweden where they looked at, um, 1. 5 million people from birth to age 45. Um, what they found is that in kids, um, there was a natural neuroplasticity where the brain tended to heal itself up until about the age 15.

[00:18:30] Peter: From 15 through to 24 was a window of vulnerability where the brain then really started to suffer if it had a clinical, you know, concussion. What it found is that, you know, if you had a, you know, clinical concussion post 15, um, You were six times more likely to commit a violent crime, six times more likely to be on social security, six times more likely to be in jail, and six times more likely to [00:19:00] not live your life expectancy.

[00:19:04] Peter: So it's frightening. These are real world stats. 

[00:19:08] Tony: Wayne, um, it could be argued that Peter is probably one of the most powerful voices on CTN concussion in Australian sport. And I wouldn't probably doubt in some aspects of the rest of the world. Um, Peter, is the AFL scared of you? 

[00:19:23] Peter: Um, yeah, look, without a doubt is that it may not be, um, scared of me.

[00:19:29] Peter: I think it's a pathological hate. Um, the fact is this, is that when you turn the spotlight on darkness and you seek the truth, you know, this is when, um, you find out, you know, where the real, um, you know, problems are. And, you know, my life work is turning the spotlight in the areas of dark and the cover ups.

[00:19:50] Peter: I mean, if you look at this, is that, you know, my dad was a war veteran, right? Now, um, he had shocking post traumatic stress. Um, [00:20:00] he also had structural damage to his brain, which we didn't realise. Um, and it created a whole range of subsets. So, um, what we're seeing now is, um, because the game has got harder, faster, um, more, um, brutal.

[00:20:15] Peter: We're almost creating something like, uh, the brain traumas that we saw post war, where we had all these guys who had what was classified as, you know, the horrors. We're now seeing this, it is a pandemic in our, um, society. You know, the problem with these is that, you know, there is no workers compensation for the players in professional sport.

[00:20:36] Peter: So, the, um. You know, the AFL has decided that it's a societal problem, it won't deal with it, it just then sends all the damaged players out after they've come off the list, out into you know, the public health system. I mean, that in itself is a multi billion dollar cost, and this is coming from an organisation that is a charity.

[00:20:58] Peter: This, you know, the AFL [00:21:00] doesn't pay tax, right, has no corporate, you know, responsibility. Um, for me, um, sooner or later we just have to get them, I mean, no, no better demonstrator than you've got a hundred guys who have been, um, certified as being brain damaged trying to get proper, you know, compensation from them.

[00:21:18] Peter: So what they do, they come in with this, um, uh, you know, situation and the defence, you know, one of their defences is the players should have known. It was their responsibility to know. And this is. 20 years of denial, 20 years where the AFL are saying there's nothing to see here, there's no long term damage, yet, you know, what happens, it all finishes up as the player's fault.

[00:21:44] Peter: I mean, that's a stunning indictment of the management. I mean, in 2019, I wrote to, um, Richard Goyder. And I said to him, I'm seeing AFL Commission Chairman. The AFL, you know, Commission Chairman. I said, you, you, you need to revisit the science and medicine of Professor Paul McCrory. It is a [00:22:00] danger to your current, past and future generations.

[00:22:04] Peter: If you don't do something now, we will then continue the same brain damage that we're getting now. Um, and I wrote to him and he didn't respond and, you know, good grace I said to him, well, you know, um, maybe you're busy. But, you know, this isn't going to go away, and I'm not going to go away. You need to respond to this.

[00:22:21] Peter: And he still hasn't, and neither has the AFL. 

[00:22:24] Wayne: And let's be clear, Peter, you and I have spoken numerous times. Um, about this. You, you love the game of the AFL, of AFL. I want to 

[00:22:31] Peter: make it 

[00:22:32] Wayne: safe. That's it. Simply. And that's all you want. You don't want this game to go anywhere. You just want players and kids and everyone to be safe within the game that you love.

[00:22:41] Wayne: Yes. And that's what you're about. Because I think In a lot of ways, you are misrepresented and, and people think, Oh, you know, if this all comes out, then the game's ruined and rugby league and you know, all, all of the games. And we say what's happened in the NFL and the class actors. So, you know, this isn't just a problem, even soccer with the heading of the ball.

[00:22:58] Wayne: So there's all sorts of [00:23:00] sports that this includes, and it's not about trying to finish a sport up or end a sport. It's just trying to make everyone safer and, and. Um, not only, not only save it, but for that make the game 

[00:23:14] Peter: better. Correct. I mean, look, um, what, what we have is a very easy target, and of which I'm, uh, a very big target for, you know, people to say, oh, he's going to wreck the game.

[00:23:31] Peter: But, you know, what I want to do is make it safe so the next generation And the generation after it can play the game with the full knowledge that it's safe. And that they're not going to have brain traumas. You know, they're not going to have, you know, the consequence. I mean, you've seen in your teammates, you know, some of the guys that had, um, lots of, you know, concussions, such as Sean Smith and others.

[00:23:52] Peter: I mean, Sean, you know, basically, um, Was, uh, initially part of the long [00:24:00] term scanning program from, you know, the AFL. And he received a letter back from, you know, the AFL to say that, that, uh, that there was nothing for him to worry about. I then did, you know, the other tests and it came back that he had 11 lesions on his brain.

[00:24:14] Peter: You know, he's, you know, he knows and, uh, we know that he's got some very significant problems and we're able to get a good compensation payment for him. But I mean, his life's ruined. I mean, he's in the prime of his life and he's got no quality of life. It's terrible. Is the Players Association doing enough?

[00:24:34] Peter: Um, the Players Association and I are perennially at war. Um, do they do enough? No. Do they look after their past players? No. Um, look Fundamentally, it's got to change. I went to the AFL in 2021 and said, we need to have a new concussion fund that needs to be [00:25:00] administered separately from the AFL PA because anybody who's dealt with the PA knows it's now turned into a slow bureaucracy.

[00:25:08] Peter: It's very, very hard to deal with. I mean, I've had times when I've got phone calls from guys, uh, wives saying he's on his way to, you know, commit suicide. What do we do? Players wives? Yeah. And I say, well, we need to get the CAT scan or the CAT team involved. We need to do this. And then you ring, um, you know, their helpline and, um, there's nobody at the end of the helpline.

[00:25:33] Peter: It, it, 

[00:25:34] Wayne: it is a case with the players association and I've had conversations with, um, you know, Tim Harrington, a former teammate, works for the players, Paul Marsh and, and not, and this is not just about concussion, but it's about a lot of different things. And clearly if there's a player that's played and there's a blanket rule for everyone, unfortunately Yeah.

[00:25:54] Wayne: And that's where, that's where I think the players association can improve a lot. [00:26:00] Right. And that is. They do have a fund there for past players, and they do, and, and you know, there is money there that goes to players for whether it be, like, myself, shoulder or knee or ankle or, or, or head trauma, or you've got to see, it's like, whatever it, whatever it may be, but it's one hat fits all.

[00:26:19] Wayne: And unfortunately, if a player's played 250 games, and a player's played one, the compensation from the Players Association is exactly the same. Now, that clearly doesn't make sense. A player that's played 250 games is probably going to have a few more issues later in life than a player that's played one.

[00:26:37] Wayne: So, that is an area that clearly needs to be looked at, with, without doubt. And Does that upset you? Um, well, I've only really, I've only really thought about it late, and I've spoken to you about this Peter, uh, of late because Um, you know, things, and I, and I knew these things were going to come, it, it also comes with age, even if you, and it doesn't matter whether you play a [00:27:00] local sport, it's all the, it's all the same thing.

[00:27:02] Wayne: The AFL just is the one that I guess is the, the spokesperson or the, the moral voice on it seems everything at this point in time. Yet, we still don't, I still don't think they, and this is the Players Association, understand that the support that those who have played for a longer period of time need more help than those that didn't clearly.

[00:27:26] Peter: Yeah, I think, look, my dealings with them has been the full spectrum. In some parts it's been good, in some parts it's been bad, and in some parts it's been very bad. I mean, what I said to them is this, you know. Um, don't beat me to death with rules, you know, rules are simply guides. I mean, what you've got to do is look at each case on its merit, and if a particular person needs this help, and if you don't have enough funds for it, you go to the AFL and say, well, okay, this is it.

[00:27:54] Peter: If they had have done that, we wouldn't have. because they would have been, you know, the advocates for the [00:28:00] players and say, well, hang on, we've got this, you know, 100 lot. I mean, it's a tip of the iceberg. I mean, it hasn't always 

[00:28:05] Wayne: been a great, it hasn't always been a strong union though, has it? I mean, you know, the AFL fund three quarters of it.

[00:28:11] Wayne: If you go back in time though, it's only been, it's, it's probably been mid nineties. And I think it was when I remember Ricky Nixon, it was, I think Andrew Demetrio was. Then the, the boss, but it, it, it then started, but it started to become, I mean, what I mean by strong union that, you know, all the players were involved, all of them signed up and said, okay, we're a part of this.

[00:28:32] Wayne: And the reason why is because what they got sold was, we're going to look after 

[00:28:36] Peter: you. Well, look, um, a little bit of history, right? Uh, Peter Allen was the secretary, did it, um, uh, voluntarily, um, and he was shut out by, uh, the AFL. I went to the AFL with Graham Ellen, um, who then was working at Collingwood and I said to them, is it, you know, you need to actually turn this [00:29:00] around, um, or, and fund it in a proper way.

[00:29:04] Peter: Um, I also worked for Justin Madden who was one of the presidents and Justin, um, and I collaborated on creating it into a union. Right? Distinct from a association. So we met with some lawyers from CAUSE, uh, and we developed this to turn it into a union with a federal reach, which meant, um, from the AFL's point of view, once it became a, uh, you know, national union, Um, then it would mandate all of the requirements of a normal, you know, corporate outcome.

[00:29:37] Peter: So that means they would have then had to have workers compensation, would have superannuation, would have had to have long service leave, would have had to have, um, four weeks annual leave, all of these sort of things, sick pay, etc, etc. So what the AFL did, um, to cut that off, they then went and came back to us and said, well, we'll fund this.

[00:29:56] Peter: So, the initial funding was between one and a half to [00:30:00] two million dollars a year, which turned it around and then that's when they were able to, um, source it and staff it on a, you know, proper basis, so, you know, um, that's the reality, uh, it's probably not been written in, you know, the history of, you know, the AFL PA because it's an inconvenient truth, but, you know, you know, behind the scenes we, we did an enormous amount of work to, to turn it around.

[00:30:23] Tony: Well that being said, what are they being paid today? Doesn't the Asheville something in excess of 10 million 

[00:30:29] Peter: annually? No, it's a lot more than that in the different, um, you know, baskets. But, um, it's really, um, what, my view is once you're paid by a master, you can't serve two masters, and so, you know, what it means is, you know, the independence and, you know, the advocacy starts to lose its touch, because, I mean, They, they should be at the forefront of getting proper insurance.

[00:30:56] Peter: There should be workers compensation. There's no reason why there [00:31:00] shouldn't be workers compensation. If we had workers compensation, there would be no, um, need for this, um, class, class action. I mean, for me, the, uh, class action is an aberration in our sport. You know, we're, we're about, um, looking after our, you know, we are told by, you know, the AFL that, um, it is at the forefront of everything they do is the welfare of players.

[00:31:22] Peter: We'll win. Clearly they've failed if you've got a hundred of your champions and these include Brandlow medalists, club champions, best and fairest. Premiership players. And Premiership players knocking on the door of the court saying, you know, you've fucked us over. I mean, really? You know, and, you know, the AFL, you know, from my point of view is just, we just need to have a clean out.

[00:31:42] Peter: We need to get people that actually understand what is happening to these past players. I mean. The commission, you know, they may as well have their meetings in Mongolia or Siberia. They're so far removed from the actual source of what actually goes on here, you know. [00:32:00] 

[00:32:01] Wayne: You summed that up succinctly and perfectly for me because it's only It's, it's only been in recent times since I've been involved with a company by the name of the GBS, Good Bloke Society.

[00:32:12] Wayne: And they do a lot of, a lot of things around men's health. There are a lot of ex AFL players that are involved in it. And I love, I love the camaraderie. I love the business connection, but more importantly, I love the support that they give for one another. And through that organization, we've actually had Shawnee Wallace on, on this, uh, on this show before.

[00:32:31] Wayne: But the reason why I love it is because Of the confidence that people have to bring up certain things that are going on and just to back up what you said then about, um, players, I've had players in recent times and the things that they've rang and called me about and, and it is about how they're feeling and, and they, they don't want to be, they don't want to be here anymore.

[00:32:56] Wayne: And, and, you know, it is, yeah. [00:33:00] It is heartbreaking, it is sad, um, at different times they have reached out, clearly, well not at different times, a lot of times they've reached out to the AFL and the AFLPA and stuff and they have been given some support but the support stops, it stops, it doesn't go any further as I said because there's a restriction on how much support one can give and some of the answers that I've had back when I've delved into it a little bit deeper have been Tony that Well, we can't, you know, you can lead a horse to water, but we, you know, that, that, that's as far as we can take it.

[00:33:33] Wayne: So it just gets cut off at that, at that point. And when one's time to, you know, sort of looking themselves in the mirror and, and, you know, helping themselves and it's a lot more serious than that. And when you, and when you receive those calls and I know how passionate you are and, and like I said, it's only been recently that, you know, and it, and it's not, it's actually becoming weekly.

[00:33:57] Wayne: Weekly, and all of a [00:34:00] sudden, um, you know, become someone that these guys are ringing me, and I know what Sean, I know they ring Sean, and I know they ring other people, clearly you get phone calls, but it, it, it, it just sits with you, and it, and it, it's heartbreaking. I'm not, I'm no perfect person, I've, I've had, I've had my own issues, I've got, you know, and, and, and who knows, you know, but.

[00:34:23] Wayne: It, it's, that burden that sits with you and, and, and the heartbreak that you hear, like you said, from, and it's not, it goes wider, it's not just the per, it's, it is the wife, the partner, the girlfriend, and the, you know, the kids, and all of those people that are, that are going through this, the mums and dads, the brothers, the sisters, they're the ones that have to receive the call when, when this sort of stuff happens.

[00:34:47] Wayne: So. It is, uh, it, it, there's, there's just a long way to go and that's why we, uh, we're sitting here now having this conversation and that's why the more I think we talk about it, [00:35:00] Pete, the more then, well, we hope that it improves and there's improvements that are made because it is, it is becoming more prevalent.

[00:35:10] Wayne: And it's not the easy way out. And that's, and that's the other thing I just want to say here too, as an ex has been. That's all I am, an ex has been footballer. But, you know, this isn't people that just want handouts. And, you know, and I think that's an easy throwaway line for people. To say, oh well, Lee's career's over or whatever, he just wants, you know, he just wants to be looked after and get a handout here or a handout there.

[00:35:37] Wayne: That's not the case. These people that have joined the class action and, and, and, you know, ring the AFL Players Association regularly, daily, weekly and, and hound them for help are not just there because they want a handout. They're doing it because they're, they're in dire need of help. And I think that's the message that we're trying to get across here, and any way that we can make that [00:36:00] better, um, is, is obviously what we're all, all about.

[00:36:05] Wayne: And, uh, yeah, I, I, I love your honesty and I love the way you, and your passion and, and, and your drive to continue to drive this for, and be a spokesperson, and be unpopular. With, with uh, certain organizations and, and people for it, but, um, I have kudos to you for, for being that and, and doing that because it, it, it, it is a serious issue and, and it's, and it's.

[00:36:33] Wayne: Just, I mean, the net just goes so far and so wide. Like, when's it going to stop? And it's, and it's, you know, the concussion, it's just, there's just so much, a range of different things. You know, it's the players that leave the game and, and, and really have just. focused on everything into the game and not gone out and they don't have trades and all of this sort of stuff.

[00:36:56] Wayne: And I know that, you know, they're doing courses these days, but it's just, [00:37:00] it's an ongoing issue that needs to be addressed and just needs to be talked about more. Are you 

[00:37:05] Tony: part of it, Duck? Have you ever been concussed on the field? And or thought about reaching out to Peter in other avenues about the CTE or potentially CTO 

[00:37:14] Wayne: or TES?

[00:37:14] Wayne: No, I've never, I've never reached out to actually, or to Peter about about that. I would love to, I'd love there to be a test. I'd be more than happy to volunteer um, to go and get that particular test to see whether there is. I think that anyone that's played a long, a long length of a contact sport, whether it be boxing, whether it be Kung Fu or soccer or whatever it may be, rugby league, rugby union.

[00:37:45] Wayne: If you've played, go and, why not go and get the test? Because I think once, if you could find out. Um, you could find out if there was, then all of a sudden you can start addressing different things and then once again you don't get these, uh, [00:38:00] issues. But the aid, there's a lot of different aids out there, um, in terms of diagnosing concussion within a game and there's all these different tests, Pete, and, um, we've spoken a lot about a lot of these tests and we know that a lot of them are rhubarb.

[00:38:17] Wayne: And they're just a load of crap, and players can trick their way through them, and, and they do, and, um, and players, let's, let's be honest, players are a danger to themselves. I, I, I can put my hand up and say that, you know, you will run through a brick wall, and you could be knocked out, you could be concussed, but you go back on because it's a sign of bravery.

[00:38:37] Wayne: And we see it often, and we, and we see it often. They do have to be protected by themselves, but there are aides, aides to determine whether you have concussion and they're continuing to improve and I just hope that the AFL, um, don't. Don't just shut off to, to exploring all the options [00:39:00] that they have in this area.

[00:39:01] Wayne: And if there's 20 out there, if there's 30, if there's 40, if there's 50, well, guess what? Let's just, let's just get out there and, and, and try to help solve this massive issue in a sport that we all 

[00:39:15] Peter: love. Look, I think one of the things we've got to recognise that CTE is an industrial disease. It's created by your workplace, right?

[00:39:25] Peter: So the longer that you're involved in the sport, the more likely you are. So what manifests itself initially is called chronic neuropathological impairments, which is the precursor to when you then move into CTE. Um, CTE can only be, um, determined post mortem, but as I said before, there's a new syndrome called TES, which is, um, you know, tells you that you're likely to be in that spectrum.

[00:39:55] Peter: But, um, you're spot on, Wayne, in terms of, [00:40:00] um, the reach that we need to have is that, um, you know, the AFL needs to stop. Being this ivory tower, it needs to embrace, um, the real world. Um, it is a problem to keep saying, you know, that it's not and, um, really is, I think, a, um, long term problem for them. But it's an insult to the players as well.

[00:40:27] Peter: Um, if you look at James Hardy, you know, they denied, denied, denied, but finally the science and medicine said, Yes, you are creating mesothelioma from asbestos, and they all then were made to be, um, accountable. I mean, and I wrote to our friends at ASICS and said that, um, our chairman and the, you know, commissioners were in breach of section 181 of the Corporations Act because they failed their duty of care on the same basis as, um, the, um, Uh, James, [00:41:00] James, um, Thingo case and, um, the response that I got back from the ASIC was, is that, um, uh, we, we don't have enough people to, uh, do a proper investigation.

[00:41:14] Peter: I mean, and I'm thinking, my goodness. 

[00:41:17] Tony: Peter, um, Wayne's probably one of the most high profile sportsmen we've ever seen in this country. And he's often written about and spoken about. 

[00:41:24] Wayne: You don't have to be that, uh, complimentary. This is, this is Wayne, 

[00:41:28] Peter: I'm talking to Peter. Well, he's getting paid, so Yeah, yeah.

[00:41:31] Peter: Peter, do you He's slapping on the mayo. 

[00:41:33] Tony: Do you think Wayne has displayed any type of symptoms in his post football career? 

[00:41:39] Peter: Basically what happens is, um, guys who are damaged live in what we call the new normal. So what they think is normal, isn't. So the only people who we know that can then tell who are the first people to cite, you know, the differences of the family and friends.

[00:41:55] Peter: So if the family and friends see that there is, you know, behavioural changes, then that [00:42:00] is a recognition that, you know, the person that they once were before they were clobbered is different. And this is what, what we find is that the family and friends are the first people to see the signs. Wayne 

[00:42:13] Wayne: Jess hasn't called Peter.

[00:42:15] Wayne: No, but my sister and everyone else probably, yeah, they'll be on the phone to you next week. But no, it's not a, it's, well, we're being a little facetious now, but that is, it is, um, once again, Peter, thank you very much for coming in. Just one more before 

[00:42:31] Tony: he goes, Wayne, Peter, just for everybody listening, is there a timeline, a court date?

[00:42:35] Tony: Um, 

[00:42:36] Peter: what can we look forward to? Well, for the class action, it's March, is the next round, when, um, they will settle it. But I mean, look, as I said before, we shouldn't be in court. The AFL needs to put its big pants on. And go and talk to these people. I mean, they're talking about doing a longitudinal study, right, for ten years.

[00:42:58] Peter: You've got a hundred guys who are [00:43:00] damaged, who are sitting there in front of them. Why aren't they then going to each of those players and saying, tell us your experience, and then once we know your experience, develop a whole subset of, um, of, you know, circumstances that then We can then put into practice as a prevention modality, right?

[00:43:19] Peter: And a mitigation strategy instead of just, you know, throwing them to the wolves and they've all got to go to court and relive the trauma that they've had in their past. I mean, it just, for me, it's a shocking indictment on the management of, you know, the AFL. 

[00:43:33] Wayne: All right. Well, thanks very much, Peter. And, uh, well, what's your space?

[00:43:38] Wayne: Like I said, I hope that, um, I hope that the changes that are made, and I know the commentary around everything that's going on at the moment, and it's, uh, it's clearly, it's shifting, but it clearly hasn't shifted enough and quick enough. But thanks for coming on. The truth hurts. 

[00:43:56] Peter: It's a pleasure, [00:44:00] Wayne.