The Bank of Parents

To kick off the first season of Half Banked, we explore a touchy subject for young Canadians: Borrowing money from your parents. Cadeem Lalor and Lauren Bird go straight to the source and ask Cadeem’s mom. Leadership expert, Schulich School of Business professor and host of the UpSkill Talks podcast Michel Shah talks about how she handled teaching Cadeem about money management and lending him cash over the years — and why she eventually had to cut him off. The hosts also talk to financial therapist Ashley Agnew about what you can do to make asking your parents for a loan less awkward.

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Transcript

Lauren Bird: 0:02

If you're a Gen Zed or millennial then you've probably had to rely on your parents to make it through some of the major stages in your life, university, a car, your first house, chances are, you've paid for some of this with your parents help.

Cadeem Lalor: 0:15

If your parents helped you with a down payment for your home, you're not alone. It's estimated that $10 billion in down payments has come from family members this past year.

Lauren Bird: 0:23

So today we're talking about the elephant in the room when it comes to young people's finances, the bank of parents.

Cadeem Lalor: 0:29

And to help us out I'm talking to the biggest money lender in my life, my mom. I'm Cadeem Lalor.

Lauren Bird: 0:33

And I'm Lauren Bird. And this is the Half Banked podcast, where we ask the big money questions that matter to young Canadians. Today, we're talking about the bank of parents, specifically the rise in the number of people getting financial help from their parents. It's no secret that the housing market across the country has boomed in the last few years, even places that were once considered very affordable are now largely out of reach for the average person. Inflation is eating away at our savings, and even where housing prices are starting to come down, interest rates are heading back up making it equally as hard to get on the property ladder. So what's a millennial to do? There are big things to buy in life, the things that are considered somewhat necessary in order to build wealth or financial independence. Houses, education, it's all getting more expensive, and wages just haven't kept up. And we are having to rely on our parents to make up the difference. But that can come with complications of its own. We'll also hear today from a financial therapist about navigating what can quickly become a very complicated relationship.

Cadeem Lalor: 1:37

Nearly a third of first time homebuyers in Canada got help from family members this past year, according to CIBC. That's 10%, more than the number of people who had helped in 2015. In fact, parents gifted$30,000 more to their adult children last year than they did in 2015. So our parents are helping us but what are they teaching us? There are many important financial lessons to learn. But what did your parents try to teach you?

Lauren Bird: 1:58

Oh, gosh, so many hard lessons. I don't even know where to begin. I worked through university through my undergrad. So I was able to get through without any loans. But then I wanted to do my master's. There was a program I was interested in the UK. And so I started applying for Canada Student Loans because I knew I'd never be able to work through that. But yeah, Canada Student Loans only gave me like half of what it assessed I needed. Banks wouldn't give me a loan without a cosign. So eventually, I hit up the old bank of parents. Luckily, my parents did loan me the money, but I lived really poor in London, I scrimped and saved and I remember counting honestly, every penny, like most students, I don't think I'm alone in that at all-

Cadeem Lalor: 2:39

No, you're definitely not.

Lauren Bird: 2:40

Yeah. But I tracked everything out of necessity. And it taught me a lot. I think, ultimately, though, the debt weighed really heavily on me, I kind of felt like I couldn't really get on with my life. So I ended up moving back home and paid off the debt within three years.

Cadeem Lalor: 2:56

Well done.

Lauren Bird: 2:57

Thank you. And I paid my parents first, which I

Cadeem Lalor: 2:57

I feel like my parents, you know, my mom really wanted to do. But yeah, like, what about yourself? especially always tried to instill the lessons of saving money avoiding unnecessary spending, or wasteful spending. But it is always tougher to really understand those lessons without the context, such as getting your first job and then trying to pinch pennies to be able to go out and also buy groceries. One of my biggest lessons was after I left my undergrad, then I left a full time tech support job to take on a part time role as a proofreader with the Hamilton Spectator. So I was cutting my income in half and also taking on higher rent since I wouldn't be living with family anymore.

Lauren Bird: 3:31

Ooh. That's a risk?

Cadeem Lalor: 3:32

Oh, definitely was.

Lauren Bird: 3:33

How'd that work out?

Cadeem Lalor: 3:34

So I'm here now at least. So it's worked out, it didn't come instantly. So I guess that's one lesson already that hopefully listeners can learn. It can take a while. But I moved from Brampton got a place in Hamilton with my own money, and knowing how to forego some expenses, like getting a car, tried to budget as best I could, but I knew I could always move back in with my parents or possibly get a loan, if it didn't work out, I had that safety net, which I feel like contributed a lot to me being willing to make that risk. So I do have my parents that thank for that we actually have my mom in the room with us. Her name is Michelle Shah, which I feel odd saying. She is a professor at George Brown, and also the founder of the UpSkill company, which also has a podcast as well, UpSkill Talks. So thank you for joining us.

Michelle Shah: 4:09

It is my pleasure to be here. Thank you very much for having me.

Lauren Bird: 4:13

Lovely to have you.

Michelle Shah: 4:14

I'm excited to be here.

Cadeem Lalor: 4:15

So I guess it's something I've never actually formally asked you. What did you try to teach me? What were the most valuable lessons that you tried to instill in me?

Michelle Shah: 4:21

Well, the most important one is that there are values that we need to learn and live by. And responsibility is an important value. Resilience is an important value. Independence is an important value, interdependence more important than independence. And so responsibility was one of those key values that I wanted you to learn, but self reliance, self assurance, and that's one of the things that I remember when you went off to university first year, I thought since I did not have parents who could have supported my higher learning. I had to do that all on my own. I would never let that happen to my child. I was going to save up money, I was going to make sure you were able to go through higher ed without a loan. And so I planned and gave too much as you went off, to be frank. I gave you a credit card bank account with money, everything paid meal plan at the college. And I just started to notice-

Cadeem Lalor: 5:20

I know where the store is going.

Michelle Shah: 5:21

Yeah. I just started to notice every Friday, there was a charge on the card for like, over $60. And there were all these charges that didn't make sense to me. So when I pulled Cadeem in for the audit, it was his friends were going somewhere else. And when they had drinks on a Friday night, he got a cab to take them all back home. And I thought, why are you the one doing this? And so I noticed all of these charges on his credit card that didn't reflect his usual spending habits, he was spending all this money to fit into that group, to belong to that community. And so that was a lesson that I never thought about. That was something I didn't realize that I could actually set him up to be preyed upon. And that was an important lesson for him to know: you can't use money to buy your way into a community into a friendship into any relationship. That was something I never thought we needed to teach upfront. And that's a critical lesson that we had to take a step back and learn. And so I had to draw down on his access to funds and have him live without the funds for a good semester. And it is through that semester, that he realized these were not my friends and identified friends of his own.

Cadeem Lalor: 6:42

That taught me a lot about budgeting for sure. semester that followed. And yeah, I guess as a note, on the fitting in piece, I don't really talk to any of the people who I was spending the money on that semester, like all my friends are friends, I've met outside of that group since then. So I just did a lesson on that. Yeah, definitely don't try to spend to fit in that should not be what makes you have value to a group. So I think definitely lessons learned the hard way that first year. And I think even as I continued on, after moving to Hamilton, so forth, those were kind of the fundamental ones. I remember even getting my first job at Wonderland to know that you had mentioned that, I think by that time, I had some value of you know, the value of money, trying to save up to rent my own place at some point, you know, back then I was probably 19. So that dreams about having a house, but you know, 25, so trying to save up for that. And I remember them charging $5 for a bottle of water for the employees. And yeah, they-

Lauren Bird: 7:28

Employees had to pay $5 for bottled water?

Cadeem Lalor: 7:30

Yeah.

Lauren Bird: 7:30

Wow.

Cadeem Lalor: 7:30

So I think by that point, I realized I don't want to pay that. So I'm gonna bring a water bottle fill up there. So I guess it was small lessons start to creep in, I think those are the small things that actually ended up to some bigger savings later on.

Michelle Shah: 7:41

And that it gives you responsibility for the pot of money that you have, and also an understanding of how much money you're actually giving away. Because when Cadeem ended up that semester, without that buffer that he normally gets, I gave him one money for the entire semester, and he really struggled. He called home a lot. Could you help me out some more? Could I have another $100, I ran out of money. And I just said, go back to the people who you spent your money on and see if any of them can assist you. Now, you don't have any money. And none of them were assisting him.

Lauren Bird: 8:16

How was that? How was that as a lesson to learn?

Cadeem Lalor: 8:18

Uh... there's a lot to kind of extrapolate from there, I guess I think I started getting into cooking a bit more especially going to the grocery store learning the value of like, what's a good price for getting a chunk of meat and even just vegetables? All those kinds of value related things started that year. So I think that was definitely something that is

Lauren Bird: 8:31

Did you go to them? very, very crucial. And yeah, I think that was definitely a lesson on friendship too. Because of yeah, you try to go to those same people. It's not happening in terms of trying to get any of that money recouped back or they don't feel like they owe you or anything like that.

Cadeem Lalor: 8:45

Oh, I try. Yeah, no. So definitely a lesson learned on that piece as well.

Lauren Bird: 8:50

Yeah.

Cadeem Lalor: 8:50

I was also wondering how did your own upbringing affects your values or mindset on money?

Michelle Shah: 8:55

Well, that's a really good question. I grew up sort of split between two different homes. One was my nuclear family with my mom and dad and the other was my extended family headed up by my maternal grandmother. And my maternal grandmother and grandfather, they were hustlers. They had like five different businesses happening. There was like a preschool. There was a bakery, there was a little supermarket. And she was a seamstress. And my grandfather did farming. So there were multiple means by which money came into that home. On the other hand, inside of our nuclear family, it was my father, working with the bauxite company, bringing in all the income and my mom was a stay at home mom, I knew that a stay at home mom was not a model for me. I knew from that time as a child that I needed my own income, and that I was going to have multiple means of making money. What I did learn from very early was that there was a relationship between people who manage their time, invested their time well and those who had money. Like I noticed that my grandmother they spent more time like in the evenings when people were playing games and gone out, she was sewing, she was baking, she was doing these things that tomorrow turned into money. And those same people that were out partying came to borrow. So I knew from very early that the people who were putting in that extra time, that extra effort after hours before hours, those people had a better relationship with money. So I knew that my time was something that I really needed to master early. And that's something that I wanted to make sure that Cadeem mastered from very early like, have a meticulous understanding of time, because time and money have an inverse relationship, and that we always have to manage the relationship with time if we want to have a positive relationship with money.

Lauren Bird: 10:45

Were you aware of that? Or was that something you reflected on and learned?

Michelle Shah: 10:48

That's something I reflected on and learned because as we get older, and we examine our own relationship with time, our own relationship with money, I noticed that my grandmother was a real Hustler, she had all of these things happening. She also had a lineup of people looking to her for resources, whether it was food, whether it was money, some support or another. But she was busy doing this managing her time doing all of this stuff, and other people were out busy doing a little less than what she was doing. But relied so heavily on her. When I looked back on it, I realized, how did she get all of this thing done in a day, like I still can't figure it out. But I realized that the people who really set up a good system for themselves financially learn to use their time very, very well. And so I feel like part of a positive relationship with money has to be a positive relationship with time. If you look around the world at people who have money, wealth, you will notice that they manage their time well, they're the people who will say no, they don't have availability, they're the people who you can't get a hold of people who have a lot of time usually don't have a lot of money in the people who are inaccessible, you can't find them, they're just not available to come and help you move on Saturday, those people usually have a more positive relationship with money. Because the more money you have, the more time you probably have to invest in yourself from early to get it, you are the person that's going to be staying up and reading, attending that extra class, networking, collaborating with others. Testing and experimenting with different projects or side hustles, that's going to take up your time, in order for you to make money. If you're home just chilling, you're unlikely to have the money, although you're going to have the time. So there's that relationship that we have to be mindful of.

Cadeem Lalor: 12:37

I'm at a space in my life now making the most money I've made so far. But time has kind of disappeared along with that. So I think it's definitely an inverse relationship, it's tough to be able to balance both at least be able to get to a stage with maybe true wealth, where you have a lot of both. But I find that there is usually an inverse relationship, though. It's something that I've understood more as I've gotten older, as so many friends who have full time jobs, and then relationships and so forth. And then also side gigs, which is kind of a necessity feels like for some people our age to be able to afford a home or to be able to save up for one. So I definitely understand now as you grow older, you have friends you don't hang out with as much you say like my best friend last, my son was, you know, three months ago, but you know we catch up is that you haven't missed anything. But it definitely isn't a situation like college where you hung out, say every weekend, those days are sort of long gone. And you kind of just understand that that's a part of life now.

Michelle Shah: 13:19

And the most important relationship is that most of us exchange time for money. And since we all have the same amount of time, people who have more money, buy our time-

Cadeem Lalor: 13:29

Right

Michelle Shah: 13:29

-to increase their money. So we have to be very mindful of how we're using our time. And if we're doing a one-on-one exchange, one hour of my time for one hour worth of money, that relationship is what keeps a lot of us locked in and never experience wealth. But this is why a lot of people are considering side gigs that look at some means of passive income so that you can make money without exchanging one-for-one ratio of time because you perhaps won't live long enough, depending on the level where you're at, to bring in sufficient money based on exchanging time alone.

Cadeem Lalor: 14:04

No, definitely. And I was also wondering, how did your needs differ from mine when you were my age?

Michelle Shah: 14:10

Well, when I was your age, I had a son, but I had a son that relied on me that I wanted to give a better life than the one I had. And so that deep desire burning desire pushed me very, very hard. And I woke up every morning wondering how do I make this happen? And so when I look at where you are now compared to where I was, by the time I was your age, do I get to say your age?

Cadeem Lalor: 14:38

Oh, go ahead.

Michelle Shah: 14:39

By the time I was your age, you're turning 31, I had already owned my third home, that house which is about 3500 square feet that house was like$320,000 to buy.

Cadeem Lalor: 14:52

Right. Good old days.

Michelle Shah: 14:52

A house like that now, if you wanted to get into it, you need to be over a million dollars to get into a house like that perhaps one point something to get into a house like that. So that's one thing different in terms of the ability to get into houses. And that's kind of where the bank of parents comes in. Because getting into a house for 320, Because the outcome of those two numbers is and get into a house for 1.1, or 1.3... very different conversations that we're having. So yes, the real estate market was lower interest rates were fairly decent as well. But I had a real estate license. So I was out making money doing real estate, and then later on money making, doing financial planning. What I do know in terms of this bank of parents, some people are going to arrive one day needing it without even realizing that they were on track for it all along. Because when I take a look at finances with young people, there is a plan that when they get to, the six figure income, when I start making this money, that's when I'm going to start saving. They're not thinking about a budget, they're not realizing that there could be room in what they're making now to put away a little because now they have time, the difference between where Cadeem sits and where I sit is if Cadeem and I start saving the same amount of money or invest in the same amount of money now, he's at an advantage because he has more time. And so even if you're putting away less, when you're younger, you're probably in a better position than if you're waiting until that big income comes where you can squeeze room out of it. And it comes back to discipline comes back to that value of discipline, if you are not disciplined to put away a little out of the little, you probably aren't developing the discipline muscle to put away a little out of a lot. And that's how we end up at 35 and 40, and have no pathway to anything. So that's a really big piece of what I think I noticed is just the absence of a budget, you know how much you're making, you don't know how much you're spending, you don't know what your expenses are, if someone says, What are your monthly expenses? In business, we talk about key performance indicators in your personal life, how much you're putting out a month, that's a number you should know, those are important numbers to know how much are you bringing in? How much are you putting out? Those are two numbers you should know. really important to where you can go next.

Cadeem Lalor: 17:12

No, definitely. I mean, as a more exaggerated version of that we definitely hear stories about, say athletes who make millions who also blow millions of dollars, because they don't have the good habits. And before think one of our stories was actually talking about a financial planner, who manages athletes specifically. And part of the issue is that they don't have a budget going into getting all that money. So obviously getting all that money will not make them more financially self aware, self conscious, it just exacerbates existing issues. And I was also wondering too, when you mentioned you know, $300,000 for a house is nowhere near close to what you can get now, because obviously I have family members and friends out in Winnipeg, and that sort of a doable price for that area. But you think about just also the change in markets is what makes a big difference. I know more people who are moving out to places such as Calgary, Saskatchewan, so forth, specifically for lower housing prices at this time, than any other time, it's just become a big kind of like a motivator, basically, for moving further out west, sometimes possibly out east, if you can get better housing price, basically better bang for your buck in terms of space for houses. We discussed this earlier, when we talked about university you had mentioned, you helped me out the big safety net of not having I didn't move to Hamilton basically with a lot of student loans to worry about. So not having that pre existing debt definitely helped out, I added some of my own, you know, going through working part time renting my own place, but not having a student loans was a big piece of that. So obviously, in terms of the Bank of parents, so you do believe in a college fund for children. So there's my experience of not taking loans. And what do you see as the value of that experience?

Michelle Shah: 18:33

The experience of you not taking loans?

Cadeem Lalor: 18:35

Right?

Michelle Shah: 18:36

So pluses and minuses. Because, you know, first of all, that is something that I'm grateful for, because a lot of parents would like to be able to support their children, so they don't have loans and are not able to. So that's one. Two, though, I think we went in with the mindset that you will go right through school, just focus on your academics and come out. And if you really hit the top numbers, get a good GPA, you're going to get a good job, and everything is going to be great. That's the mindset that we went in with. But the world has shifted so significantly since. And so if we didn't have all that income to support that, you would have had to work that would have been beneficial for you. Work is not only to get money, work is to develop skills work is to develop networks, work is to increase your worth before you come out of university. Just studying is not sufficient for the new world that we're in. So I wish I had the sense of mind to give you the opportunity to work a little bit at least to pay something to develop those additional skills and to give you the opportunity to network and sort of get a good sense of what you were getting into before you graduated.

Cadeem Lalor: 19:48

So I will say in terms of that we didn't mean like you know we have to work full time as well because that is a big responsibility and that can weigh heavily on time management terms of just stress for students who have to work say part time and then also study full time. Time. But if I had maybe worked a few hours, you know, maybe throughout semesters few hours a week that can build up a network build up experience, once you graduate is not enough just to have the GPA. And the degree, having experience was a key part of the job hunt, I remember going to a job where I had a Master's and the whole interview, all they asked me is why do you want this job, if you have a Master's, there were no questions about any of my skills that I wanted to develop with the job. So definitely missing out on the experience is a key part of it, if you have the luxury of being able to not have to work to support yourself fully, and you have that ability, at the- safety net, of just being-

Lauren Bird: 20:30

You can -

Michelle Shah: 20:31

Volunteer.

Lauren Bird: 20:32

Yeah, you can pick and choose what you want to do what will best help you get to the track, you're going on.

Cadeem Lalor: 20:37

100%. So definitely lessons learned. I think that going through the whole experience of basically getting help some places and getting help with, say, school, and then also going through the process of trying to get home yourself. It's really taught a lot. So I just want to thank you. So the things we've never actually discussed that we're all these years, but I think it's been nice to actually lay them out and hopefully help other people kind of understand some of the important financial lessons they can learn kind of going to college go into the workforce. So thank you very much for your time.

Lauren Bird: 21:01

So yeah, thank you very much. It's lovely to meet you.

Michelle Shah: 21:03

And you thank you very much.

Cadeem Lalor: 21:12

With that interview, what were some of the most interesting pieces of information you found Lauren?

Lauren Bird: 21:16

I found interesting that your mother seemed to have a plan, like she really does seem to think about the decisions she was making about your life financially and what she wanted to teach you. And that's really commendable, and probably something I'd want to take into my own life and that sense.

Cadeem Lalor: 21:33

No, definitely. I think the work ethic is something that's kind of rubbed off on me for sure.

Lauren Bird: 21:36

Yeah. So you guys didn't have those kinds of conversations previously?

Cadeem Lalor: 21:46

I think, generally. But getting into some of the details was definitely interesting. I didn't know about kind of the relationship between nuclear family and the extended family, like the details of that was all new to me. So it's really interesting to learn about that and kind of learn where the hustle mentality comes from. Because I'm my girlfriend's stepdad remarking that, you know, I thought it was pretty busy, because he owns a business like, but she makes me feel lazy. So yeah, trying to you know, imagine growing up with her. So definitely, the part about needing work experience and not just a degree in grades is something that we both sort of learned together. So I guess sometimes it shows that even if you have more experience, markets change, and so forth, demands change in the workplace, you there's always kind of more learning to do and that kind of more disruptions that come along, going through grade school, there was always get good grades, you get a good job, but I think everyone knows it's not that simple anymore. You can actually plan for everything. It's just about having hopefully good values, and good habits that can help you adjust to changes.

Lauren Bird: 22:29

Yeah, absolutely. It's worked out really well for you guys. But I guess it doesn't always work out for everybody. And there are a lot of complications that can come from getting money from your parents. It's something that Ashley Agnew deals with all the time. Ashley Agnew is a financial advisor trained in financial therapy. She helps families navigate really complicated decisions that can have really complicated consequences. So I had a conversation with her. Hi, Ashley.

Ashley Agnew: 23:06

Hi, Lauren, how are you?

Lauren Bird: 23:07

I'm good. Thanks. So how likely is it that young people are getting help from their parents? How often are you seeing this happening?

Ashley Agnew: 23:15

So we're seeing this quite a bit. And you know, at our firm, we deal mostly with high net worth and ultra high net worth clients. But we're also on our fourth generation of client. So not everybody's quite there yet. Right? So we see young adults getting help from their parents quite often, whether it be for rental costs, down payments for homes, college payments or things of the like. So it is something that we see quite a bit. And sometimes it's a facilitated ask, and sometimes it's a gift. And you know, it varies depending on the circumstances.

Lauren Bird: 23:48

What are the things that you're telling people who are getting money from their parents? What's important for people to know?

Ashley Agnew: 23:54

I think the most important thing to know is what are the boundaries and parameters surrounding the financial assistance? Is it financial assistance by way of a gift? Or is it a loan? Are there expectations surrounding the money? Is it a situation where we'll help you pay for school, but you should follow a certain track? Is it a situation where we'll help you fund a down payment for a home but it has to be in a certain neighbourhood property or something like that. So I think that knowing what expectations come with a gift is very important. And that's not always an easy discussion to have.

Lauren Bird: 24:30

No, it doesn't sound it so like how do you hammer out those details?

Ashley Agnew: 24:33

So sometimes it comes with just moving past the discomfort, right? And helping normalize the conversation because it's an elephant in the room. And you know, we have some client families that we work with that while the young adults appreciate the help, and it can be something as minor as you know, paying for a cell phone bill or paying for car insurance, because they haven't, you know, changed it over since they've left the nest, right. So we have some young professionals and they say, you know my parents are paying for my bills, or you know, Bill X, Y and Z, I don't know if that's by accident if they want to, or if I sound ungrateful if I question them. And even though that might be a small amount, call it $100,$200, whatever it is, as opposed to maybe, you know, $50,000 down payment or something, it's still the same concept of what are the feelings around that money? And how is this hindering your relationship, and if it's hindering your relationship, even by keeping an elephant in the room, then you have to hammer out the details about that swallow the frog and talk to your parents about the gift. That's not always easy, because money's not always very comfortable to talk about in the first place, right? But a facilitated conversation, a time that's dedicated to talk about the money can be really helpful. The middle of a cousin's first birthday party might not be the time, right? It's not the mindset that you're in your mind sort of celebration, maybe not a deeper talk. But talking to your parents, if we're talking specifically about parental assistance and saying, hey, you know, I have a couple of financial questions I'd really like to talk to you about, can we carve out some time next week? Then they know what's coming a little bit, right, they know, at least the broader spectrum of the topic. And that's when you say, you know, I really appreciate all of your help, this has really helped me get ahead. I just want to have an understanding, because I really respect this gift and the opportunity you've given me. So I want to make sure that I'm respecting how I move forward

Lauren Bird: 26:28

Do you find most people you deal with, are they with it as well. receptive to that? Do they appreciate that kind of

Ashley Agnew: 26:35

I find that they appreciate it, especially when forthcomingness? we're dealing with young adults, because it shows a sign of maturity. And it shows a sign of self reflection, and that they're really trying to be aware of their own money, personality. So your money personality is really your relationship with money. And we talk a lot in financial therapy about money script, which are the stories that you tell yourself about money that come from your experiences and financial flashpoints with money, so those times that really shaped you, and the decisions around your finances, you know, maybe that is witnessing parents fighting about, you know, taxes, or bills or purchases, or maybe not witnessing them talking about money at all. So when you get into your own relationships as an adult, you don't know how to face it head on. So everybody comes from a little bit of a different spot that way. But when we're dealing with the young adults that are questioning their parents, and I don't mean questioning as interviewing or badgering, right, but just raising the discussion, it really is a sign of maturity, and it's well received.

Lauren Bird: 27:43

Like, let's say you, your parents give you a down payment for a house. Going forward, how do you kind of manage people's expectations? You know, do you have to show up at Thanksgiving and Christmas and all of these things? Or, you know?

Ashley Agnew: 27:57

Well we you know, we hear this a lot. And it's unfortunate when it's not addressed at all, that the children then feel like the parents are puppeteering a little bit. Because money can be used as a tool for good or for bad. And it can be a little manipulative. And sometimes the way thing's perceived are not always the way that they were meant to be delivered. So for example, look at a coupleships, look at any partnership, right marriage, if one spouse has parent gives the downpayment, and the other spouse is parent can't afford that type of assistance. Right? It can be really easy to feel pressured into spending more time with that other spouses' family, right to spend the holidays there, to open up the invitation to the home a little bit earlier. Because there's a little bit of guilt and you feel like you're indebted to that person. Now, that might not be how the grant or how the person who's giving the gift feels about it. That might just be a perception. But if you don't have the conversations, then... then you don't know right now you're filling the blanks, the way our minds work. If we see a circle with 45 degrees missing from that arc, we want to fill it in, because we want things to make sense. So when assumptions come into play, with money conversations, it gets pretty dangerous pretty quick. It can be hard to have the conversations because it feels cold and transactional. And that's not how we want our relationships to be with our family. But it's cold and transactional feeling for that initial conversation as opposed to the rest of your life under the weight of that debt.

Lauren Bird: 29:38

That's a really good point. Would you also recommend people, beyond having the conversation, actually get things in writing?

Ashley Agnew: 29:45

I do recommend that and where that comes in handy too is for estate planning, right and legacy

Lauren Bird: 29:49

Alright, well, thanks so much, Ashley. I really planning. Because what if there are multiple siblings? What if there are multiple siblings? And you know, maybe there's an age difference between them, and mom and dad can afford a down payment for the oldest brother but not the youngest brother. Because in that time, things have really inflated costs have really inflated. So what does that look like? Is the downpayment in early inheritance that gets backed out of the final estate. So these are all things that even though you might have a great conversation with mom and dad, there are other people in that family system, there are other people in that family unit. So we always say when we're talking about gifting, how does this impact people outside of the transaction that are closest to you? So what we like to really let people know and let families know is that there are resources out there, financial planners, certified financial planners that are now required to have an emotional training, there are more facilitators, financial therapy, advocates, and financial therapists can help facilitate these conversations. Some mental health counselors, and therapists do this type of work, too. So it's not a bad idea, to engage a professional to have these facilitated conversations. Because it can be a little bit more organized. You have somebody unbiased in the room. Everybody knows what they're going there to talk about. Right? And you'll have somebody depending on the professional you choose, you might have somebody in the room too, who has a little bit more education on, well, what are tax ramifications of that? So that helps, too. So when people are thinking about this type of gifting, think how do you feel about the gift three days, three weeks, three years from now? How does it impact the people that are outside of the transaction? And who can you get to help formalize it? appreciate this.

Ashley Agnew: 31:47

Yeah, this is great. And, you know, thank you for bringing awareness to how families can talk better around money.

Lauren Bird: 31:52

But you know, what, if you can't go to your parents? The reality is, a lot of people don't have that as a backup. If you're trying to buy a house anywhere... It's a tough ask sometimes for a lot of people.

Cadeem Lalor: 32:13

Absolutely. Especially if it's something that's not agreed upon before it can turn into a situation of do we make this a written contract? So forth? Like will this make that relationship weird? That can happen sometimes. With situations like that there are clearly government programs. OSAP is well known. But there are also options for diplomas or programs that can help you get work with less cost and a traditional degree. Also something to look into if you, you know, have career clarity, and know exactly what type of career you want to get into.

Lauren Bird: 32:40

Right. And you already talked about maybe people will move to a province where housing is a bit more affordable.

Cadeem Lalor: 32:48

Especially with the rise of remote work. It's depending on your fields as a possibility you could work full time remote if it's a stable job that you have, you could be able to move somewhere else live in another province. That's a lot cheaper and still work.

Lauren Bird: 32:58

Yeah, exactly. It's not ideal, but I guess there are ways and people find ways around it and side hustles there's lots of things to make a go of it.

Bethan Moorcraft: 33:07

And that was Half Banked. If you liked this episode, be sure to subscribe, rate and review us on Apple Spotify or wherever you're listening to this podcast.

Cadeem Lalor: 33:16

Special thanks to executive producer Samantha Emann and producers Kevin Hamilton, Jenny Potter, Shane Murphy, James Battiston, Marie Alcober and technical producer Muhammad Tabish. This episode was edited by Vocal Fry Studios.