How does your mental health affect your relationship with money? And how does money affect your mental health? From the pandemic to inflation, financial trauma and anxiety is a reality so many Canadians face every day. In this episode of Half Banked, Cadeem and Bethan talk with Alyssa Davies, founder of Mixed Up Money about the hardships and pressures of dealing with finances in your 20s — and the techniques she used to change her relationship with money. We also speak with financial trauma researcher and co-founder of the Trauma of Money training program, Chantel Chapman. She breaks down how your sense of safety, security and stress can affect your ability to make, spend and manage money.
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How does your mental health affect your relationship with money? And how does money affect your mental health? From the pandemic to inflation, financial trauma and anxiety is a reality so many Canadians face every day. In this episode of Half Banked, Cadeem and Bethan talk with Alyssa Davies, founder of Mixed Up Money about the hardships and pressures of dealing with finances in your 20s — and the techniques she used to change her relationship with money. We also speak with financial trauma researcher and co-founder of the Trauma of Money training program, Chantel Chapman. She breaks down how your sense of safety, security and stress can affect your ability to make, spend and manage money.
Enjoyed this Episode?
If you did, subscribe and share it with your friends!
Post a review and share it! If you enjoyed tuning in, leave us a review.
Have any questions? If there’s a topic you’d like us to cover, send us an email at hello@halfbanked.com!
Thanks for tuning in! You can find us on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, or Spotify! You can also follow us on Instagram, TikTok or Twitter for more clips and updates or visit our website.
Chantel 0:04
Oftentimes the things that we do with our money that are unhelpful, are ways to soothe the anxiety and depression. So I may have anxiety and depression because of trauma that might not have anything to do with money. But my soothing mechanism for my anxiety and depression might be shopping or financial avoidance. And then what happens is that leads to even more anxiety or depression. And then that's how it all becomes linked together.
Cadeem 0:32
I'm Cadeem Lalor.
Bethan 0:40
And I'm Bethan Moorcraft. And this is the Half Banked Podcast. So, Cadeem, have you ever had a bad day or a bad week and you just decided to splurge on something to make yourself feel better?
Cadeem 0:51
Absolutely. I think food is usually the culprit for me, Jamaican food, specifically, usually, you know, 20, 30 bucks at a time, you figure, you know, treating myself I've been pretty good with money, so it's worth it. But, you know, 20, 30 bucks can add up pretty quick, especially if you treat yourself pretty often. What about you?
Bethan 1:06
It's funny how you can be the best budgetary planner, but your mood can still have an impact on your bank account. And it could go the other way too, so your financial situation can have a huge impact on your mental health. A recent survey by FP Canada found that almost half of Canadians from the age of 18 to 34 have experienced some financial stress that has then hurt their mental health.
Cadeem 1:30
Well, there's a lot to be stressed out about right now. life's pretty expensive, especially for young people, we either have high rent, high housing costs, interest rates, paying off student debt, and there might be a recession coming as well.
Bethan 1:40
definitely. And there's just a lot of pressure to keep up even when times are tough. A Credit Karma study found that 50% of those aged 18 to 38 have gone into debt in order to keep up with their peers financially, which is quite a scary statistic. But I'm sure all of us have felt that pressure at some point. There's just a lot of shame and anxiety around this. And that's why we're talking to Alyssa Davies about her experience with debt and mental health.
Cadeem 2:07
Alyssa Davies is a Content Manager and published author living in Calgary, Alberta. She's also the founder of finance blog Mixed Up Money, which was named Canadian Personal Finance Blog of the year. There, she shares her best resources and tips for creating a shame free look at money. Welcome, Alyssa.
Alyssa 2:22
Hi, thanks so much for having me.
Cadeem 2:25
No problem. Thank you for joining us. So today, we want to look at mental health and money, I think much less stigma about the exploration of mental health nowadays, compared to say 10 years ago, but still more more ways to go. I think you'd probably probably agree on that. So you have spoken and written about a lot about your experiences with that and getting out of it. So I'm wonder if you can just first start by telling us a little bit about your financial journey.
Alyssa 2:46
Sure. So I really before I started, my blog did not know much about money, I had very little experience when it came to budgeting, personal finance investing, I was just kind of floating through life, which I don't think is very uncommon for anyone who's in their early 20s. So from 2013 to 2015, I was in a really tough place financially, I was bouncing between working full time in marketing. And I also went back to school a couple of times, and I just never felt secure. I was struggling to pay my bills making ends meet. And I felt like I had no control over my money. It was just in on payday and out the next day, and using credit to fund my lifestyle the rest of the time.
Cadeem 3:34
Thank you. And I believe I can also relate to that. I think I saw Bethan nodding as well. So it feels like especially when you mentioned that early 20s piece, you're just sort of going along with life, probably not really much not much conscious planning at that stage. I guess I'm wondering at that stage as well, when you're going through and trying to kind of figure things out, what does that do to mental health at that stage? And then what does kind of getting out of that period of your life do as well.
Alyssa 3:55
So what happened is that one of the times I went back to school, my then boyfriend, now husband, proposed to me. And at that moment, it was like excitement and so many new things to look forward to. But it was also an aha moment of how am I supposed to afford a wedding. And I'm still in college. Like, I feel like I don't have a lot of direction in my life right now. And so I actually started looking for jobs again so that I could find more financial security in my life. And ironically, I ended up landing a job at a not for profit, debt consolidation organization. So I ended up working in marketing for people who are helping others get out of debt. And during the training, I had to sit in on I realized I was the client. And I was like, if I don't change something in my life right now, I'm going to be in one of these sessions and I'm going to be reaching out for help because I won't be able to do it on my own. And so about a week later, I had launched my blog and just started openly share During my finances on the internet for everyone to see and dove right in, and it was probably one of the best decisions I made for my mental health. Because at that point, I did not know how bad my anxiety and my depression was getting.
Bethan 5:15
It's interesting, what you just said about realizing you are the client. I think that everybody unless they're really lucky, has one of those kind of like, moments where they're like, I need to sort of think about this a bit more responsibly, or, you know, take a real deep dive into my finances, and you never know when that's gonna happen. But for a lot of us, it is in that kind of early, mid to late 20s, where you're starting to think about kind of bigger life goals. So it's definitely interesting that you say that there's a another thing that you said is that you never felt secure with your finances when you were younger? How does financial security impact your mental health? And how are you feeling about your money right now?
Alyssa 5:56
Well, I know that money's deeply connected to mental health, I had always had anxiety, I don't know if I knew how to label it. Back when I was younger, I also didn't realize that when you have anxiety, if you don't do much to manage it, it can push you into depression. And because of all of the financial burdens that I faced, that was what was happening, I was being pushed into a depressive state, it got to a point where I felt like I don't have a way out of this. And at the time, I did not realize it was connected to money. But knowing what I know now, and knowing how I felt on the day that I did pay off my debt, I had this shift, where I suddenly felt like you could literally feel physically, this weight being lifted off your shoulders. And it was almost like I was at peace, but I didn't know what to do. Because it was so heavy. And it had been weighing on me for so long. And I think that's what happens for so many people like, I there's so many studies, you know, like 30 to 40% of Canadians, like money is their biggest concern in their life right now. And that's over work. That's over relationships, that's over their health, and like their physical health. And it's not a small thing in our lives. Because money is connected to everything we do. Everything we do revolves around money, whether it's, you know, your hobbies, whether it's paying for your groceries, your rent, you cannot do much if you don't have control over your money. And if you don't have enough money to go around for all of these things you're supposed to pay for once you hit adulthood.
Bethan 7:34
It's that classic issue of pushing the problem under the rug carrying on, and then it just builds and builds. It's an interesting issue. And I'm sure it's something that a lot of people experience, as you said, well, financial security can impact mental health. It can also go both ways. What are some ways that mental health impacts financial health?
Alyssa 7:53
Oh, there are a lot of ways, I think, I think if you're not in a great place with your mental health, or if you have ADHD, or if you have anxiety, or if you have depression, all of those things actually dictate our money in a very different way. So they can have a large play in our money management. If you have ADHD, there are a lot of symptoms that will come with that, that directly impact your finances, if you're forgetful. It's something as small as maybe you don't realize you already bought groceries that you have in your fridge and you go and buy them again, or you forget to pay your bills, because you have a lot going on in your mind. Those things happen. And they're so unspoken, of that a lot of us feel this deep shame and deep guilt, for doing things that we don't really have control over. Because we don't have 100% set on our mental health. Like if we are so busy using all of our mental energy, trying to focus on this one part of our mental health that isn't there or isn't working the way we want it to, then your money just kind of falls in the back. And it's not a bad thing. It's just something that you have to recognize. And you have to find a way to work it in with whatever you're dealing with when it comes to mental health. And I wish that more people spoke about those things so that we could actually make it less shameful.
Cadeem 9:16
You're just talking about organization basically it was a big piece of that as well. Sometimes you forgetting things and that can be due to mental health or just disorganization. So are there specific tools that you've used as well along your journey?
Alyssa 9:27
I think a lot of people require different financial tools to make their money work for them. So for me because I have a lot of anxiety, things that really helped me with my money were compartmentalizing all of those items that made me feel like I was losing control because that's what it all came back to for me is that I felt like I didn't have that security piece in lock. And so I always make sure that I have my emergency funds set ready to go. That is my number one thing that I need to feel so Carry financially. And so I actually have three emergency funds. It's a little bit of an overkill. Some people don't like that. But really it is one big emergency fund split up into three categories so that I can, like spend that money without feeling overwhelmed. So I have an emergency fund that is for my household, because I'm a homeowner. And there are a lot of big expenses that can come up unexpectedly, I have a fund that is for our family. So if myself or my husband lost our jobs, we would be able to pay for our expenses. And then I also have an account and my husband has an account that is for relationships. So if something were to happen, where one of us passed away unexpectedly where something happened in our relationship that was outside of our control, we both feel like we have that protection. And so those are the most important tools for me. The second tools that are important for me are smaller accounts that are sinking funds, for expenses that are inevitable throughout the year. So that when Christmas comes, I already have my savings for the gifts I plan to buy, or for the events I plan to attend. Or when vacations come up, I've already saved enough money so that when I go on that vacation, I'm not putting those funds on credit, they're paid for it before we go, those things can reduce the stress load so much for someone who doesn't feel like they have control over their finances. I think everyone needs to manage their money differently. It's unique in that sense, because if you do have a different sort of mental health issue, like ADHD or like depression, you might need to shift things around, you might need to be more strict with tracking your spend, you may need to budget, you may need to avoid budgeting and only do check ins once a month. There are different ways you can manage your money, it doesn't have to be all the same. And I think a lot of people think I have to have a budget, I have to do A, B, C, because that's what the financial experts told me. But that doesn't have to be the only way to manage your money.
Bethan 12:04
Is that something you've learned along the way in your journey? Or have you had some good advice along the way, as well from either a professional advisor or family or friends who have kind of helped you reach this stage?
Alyssa 12:16
That's a great question. I feel like when I started talking about money, learning about money, I did everything very traditionally, because that's the content I could find. That's what I was reading. And it has shifted so much in the past seven years. Because there are more people talking about it, there are more people I can relate to talking about it, there are more resources to learn. And I think I've learned a lot about how unique we all are as people how important it is to talk about what this system does to people how this system impacts people in their money, and how that makes us feel about money. And so I've changed a lot, and I've read a lot. And I've looked and asked questions from people that aren't the same as me, because those perspectives really matter.
Cadeem 13:11
So I want to ask, recently, you posted a story on Instagram, looking at how Instagram you know, is a social media as a whole is a highlight reel to your treadmill and it was in your basement so forth saying not kind of a fancy studio, not a fancy gym, like just showing the reality of your situation? I guess, obviously, with mental health, social media, I feel like it's just sort of intertwined with that in terms of how things are represented. And you know, not necessarily always truthfully shown or shown in full. So I guess I'm wondering, what is the impact of you feel like that's had on you personally? And how do you try to combat that with basically what you post and also how you consume social media,
Alyssa 13:42
Social media. So interesting, I find that I consume it less and less, the more time I spend as someone who's actually using it for work, right? I used to use it just as a consumer, and it sucked up so much of my time. It made me feel like I wasn't doing enough. And so slowly, when I started to realize and recognize how that was impacting my mental health, I started to unfollow people that were making me feel that way, I would just kind of notice how my body was feeling or how my mind was feeling when I saw something that brought forth those feelings of not being enough. And as soon as I felt that way, I just unfollowed it didn't matter if if someone I'd known for a long time, I don't think that having someone on your friends list is going to impact your relationship with them in real life. And I think a lot of us are unsure of that. We think that that means something. And so I've just kind of filtered or made my feed a safer place for me, because I feel like we all have different needs when it comes to social media. And I've also opened up my role to again, other people, other perspectives, but ones that make me think not ones that make me feel bad. And so most Some of the time that I do spend on social media as a consumer now is just a small space for inspiration, a small space to make me laugh. I only limit like that to a really small time at the end of the day, because I'd rather prioritize other hobbies. And that's something I've learned. And it takes a lot of time to shift those habits. So it's not an easy one. But the small way to start shifting that is by unfollowing, the people that don't make you feel good.
Cadeem 15:29
So basically curating your experience online,
Alyssa 15:31
Yes, 100%, I always went, I felt like I had to wear a new outfit every time I went out. So most of my consumer debt was spent on exactly that. I used to spend money to appease other people, and to make other people's opinion of me shift into what I thought they wanted it to be. And I don't do that anymore. I spend my money on what makes me happy alone, and things that help me grow, things that I genuinely want, not what other people want. And social media is such a fuel for people when it comes to those decisions, especially because they're so quick. You can easily spend money. I mean, I've done it, I've spent like 40 bucks in two minutes, it takes no time at all, if you see something you like. So it's a moment of reflection to pause, like, why am I buying this? Not? Do I need this? Sometimes that question doesn't give us the answer, we really need to make the decision that makes the most sense for our mental health.
Bethan 16:28
So social pressures like that, as you said, can have a serious impact on mental health. Mental health and money are often positioned as an individual problem. But that kind of ignores so many of the other systemic issues at the heart of this. So what kind of money and mental health supports do you wish were available? And more accessible to young Canadians?
Alyssa 16:54
It's such a big question. I wish that we had more empathy for providing people with their basic needs, I think that's something we overlook a lot, is that it starts from that we need food, we need shelter, we need health care, everyone needs those things. And people often scoff when I say like, I would love if we had a universal basic income, or UBI, or programs like that to uplift people out of poverty. Because if we don't do something to tackle on affordable housing, poverty, stagnant wages, inadequate health care, etc, like the list goes on and on, then we can't really create a system that benefits everyone equitably. And those are the places we have to look first is what can we do to make sure that people can afford their basic needs.
Bethan 17:46
And elicit what's one big money tip or mental health tip that you'd like to share with our listeners today?
Alyssa 17:54
I think I would just tell people to reach out for help, whether that is professionally or personally, because I know that not all of us can handle that financially, we might not have the capacity to reach out to a mental health professional. But if you can find someone that you feel safe with to confide in, even if it's just a friend or a family member, that's super important, because suffering with something like financial instability is very hard to do alone. And no one should be as lonely as our society makes us feel like we should be. Like money isn't something we often have small talk about. But it can be if you make it more normal. And if you find those people that allow that conversation to be a place of safety, rather than a place of shame.
Bethan 18:45
Thank you. That's a really interesting take.
Cadeem 18:47
I just want to say thank you so much for your time today. That was great. Yeah, no
Alyssa 18:50
Yes, no problem. Thanks for having me.
Cadeem 18:57
Next up, we're speaking with Chantel Chapman, a financial trauma researcher and co-founder of the Trauma of Money course.Her program brings together the psychology of trauma and scarcity and our relationship with money.
Bethan 19:13
Chantel, Hi, thanks for joining us.
Chantel 19:15
Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here with both of you today.
Bethan 19:20
We're very excited to have you on the show. Chantel, can you tell us a bit about yourself to start off?
Chantel 19:26
About myself - Yes. So I am tuning in from the traditional unceded territory of Musqueam, Kwantlen and Tsawwassen people which is known as Richmond in British Columbia. I have worked in finance for now 19 years, and I started trauma of money about three and a half years ago, but we've really been researching and developing the curriculum, almost like unknowingly, probably for the last. I don't know I'd say my whole lifetime actually, if I really look back At the root of the work.
Bethan 20:02
It's really interesting of course, can you tell us how you define financial trauma?
Chantel 20:08
Yes, financial trauma is some language that we are seeing a lot. Now many finance experts are starting to talk about it, it's being shared a lot in the media. And the definition of financial trauma is when someone experiences something specifically around money. So this might be growing up in poverty, financial distress for, you know, let's say longer than three months, inability to retire, loss of a job loss of assets, financial abuse within a domestic abuse relationship. So something specific happens with money, and it results in trauma. So it basically impacts your sense of safety, your sense of worthiness, and it impacts the nervous system. So when you engage in money in the future, you may go into a state of kind of catapulting yourself into the past into that, that time of the trauma. And that survival part of the brain, which shows up when we're in a trauma activated state, we'll come into the situation with money.
Cadeem 21:17
And from some of the research, it does say that people who grow up in lower income groups can experience anxiety disorders, it's a twice the rate, just about 2.4 people grew up in adults in the highest income group. So I'm just wondering, how common do you find is the issue of financial trauma and how does typically manifest in young people so people 18 to 34?
Chantel 21:35
We actually have a slightly different view. You know, I always start off by defining financial trauma, because this is kind of the buzzword right now in financial psychology is financial trauma. But at trauma of money, we have a little bit of a bigger view on what impacts the relationship with money. And we call that the trauma of money. We believe that any trauma that anyone experiences in their lifetime, or maybe it is hasn't even been experienced in your lifetime, but your ancestors experienced it, it has the ability to impact the relationship with money, even if it has nothing to do with money. And what we've seen is that most people have experienced or their ancestors have experienced some sort of trauma. And because at its core trauma impacts your sense of safety, your sense of security and your sense of worthiness, and what does money represent in our society or represents security worthiness. So we've linked these these two things, any type of trauma potential to impact the relationship with money. And oftentimes, if trauma has been present around security, scarcity or worthiness, it can show up with money. And that can result to anxiety and depression associated with money. And it's extremely, extremely common. I've actually seen for one of the financial psychologists, who's one of my colleagues, Dr. Brad and Ted Klein's, they talk a lot about compulsive spending. And they found that in their data that compulsive spending is just as common as anxiety and depression in the United States. And when I heard this research, I was like, it makes a lot of sense, because oftentimes, the things that we do with our money that are unhelpful, are ways to soothe the anxiety and depression. So I may have anxiety and depression because of trauma that might not have anything to do with money. But my soothing mechanism for my anxiety and depression might be shopping or financial avoidance. And then what happens is that leads to even more anxiety or depression. And then that's how it all becomes linked together.
Cadeem 23:54
Interesting, and also a common reaction to trauma. You know, once getting over initial shock is usually denial. So you did mention people trying to perhaps hide money trouble sleeping under the rug, I guess I'm wondering, in your own experience, how often does that behavior play out? And how does it play out specifically?
Chantel 24:09
One of the biggest things that we see in our work is financial avoidance. And financial avoidance can essentially be a form of financial denial or financial rejection. And sometimes this happens within awareness, but sometimes it's happening even subconsciously. So rejecting money in the way of you know, under earning under charging, and not really having a lot of awareness why we do it, but it is associated with this denial, this rejection and this avoidance. The financial avoidance that's quite common that we see is just not looking at statements not having an awareness of how much you spend every month or even how much income you bring in every month, not filing taxes, not having an awareness of your credit score, not having conversations around money, and that might even be with your employer to ask for a raise. So these are some examples of financial denial or avoidance that we see. And when we compare it to states in the nervous system, we've all heard of fight flight or freeze. There's another one that we talked about, which is called fawning, which is essentially people pleasing as a trauma response. But oftentimes this avoidance, it can fall into that freeze state. And at its at its like, worst, it's a collapse, it's like, I feel my nervous system feels so collapse that I just don't have the ability to do these things. It can also fall into fawning, you know, I'm not going to have the conversation around money with my employer or my partner, as a trauma response, because I need to people please them as a response, if if they're okay with me, and I'm over giving, then I'm safe in this relationship.
Cadeem 25:59
Very interesting. I know there was a also a survey that we've looked at where there's, it's 60% of Canadians did admit as a 2020, to hiding financial secrets from their partners. Because I'm wondering when you come across, if you come across that and when you have if basically, that feeling of shame or wanting to please was a part of that?
Chantel 26:16
So this is a bit of a tricky one, I sit on the national task force for economic justice. And what we do within that task force is we work with survivors of domestic abuse and financial abuse. And one thing that is crucial for these survivors is to to hide an account to hide certain aspects of their money in order to survive, they have to do that to create that pathway for them to get out of that relationship. However, there other relationships where we call it financial infidelity is that play where they're they're hiding aspects of their financial situation in a relationship, where both parties agree that they're going to be sharing certain aspects. And when I was a mortgage broker, I actually saw this come up a lot where you know, there would be partners there and they would be ready to buy a home together. And every time we go pull the credit bureau and the two of them are sitting there, you could feel the anxiousness like, is there something on there that I haven't disclosed to my, my spouse? And so yeah, we do see it a lot. And is it really linked to shame? Absolutely, it's linked to shame. There are certain gender based narratives that folks have learned in society about how they should interact with money. Male identifying folks have been told that your worth is associated with how much money you earn, and you know it and being good with money. And so if that's not present, there may be shame there, and it may result in the partner to hide. And then on the other side, women and identifying folks have been told through mostly some of the systems that have existed around finances, that they're not good enough with money, you know, it was up until what 1970s that a woman had to get a a male cosigner for a credit card, right? So some of these narratives and these experiences show up today within certain gender identities. And so of course, this can lead to shame. And one of the questions that we ask and trauma of money, it's one of our trademark questions is, whose shame is this. Because oftentimes, the shame that we may carry around money actually doesn't even belong to us, it might come from a societal narrative. And so part of that process of like D personalizing the shame is very helpful for us to move forward and change the patterns that we're looking to change.
Bethan 28:49
Stress and money, money and stress. What comes first is the age old question of the chicken and the egg. Are we bad with money? Because we are stressed or anxious? Or we've had trauma? Or are we stressed, anxious and have trauma because we are bad with money? Or is it just an endless cycle or both ways?
Chantel 29:12
The answer is from what I see it's both ways. So you know, there are folks that have a chronic stress, have experienced trauma, so anything that represents security and worth, they may have a hard time interacting with it. So therefore the trauma and the stress impacts the relationship with money. And then on the flip side, there is money and interactions with money that can result in trauma This is why we have terms like financial trauma because certain experience specifically around money can result in chronic stress or and eventually trauma. So it is really both and and you know you mentioned the word cycle, they feed each other They absolutely feed each other. Because the thing is, is, money can cause a lot of stress. But we can also use money to basically soothe pain and increase our dopamine levels. So it's both right, so we can feel stressed about money. And then we'll go and buy something that we can't afford. And we are built, meaning this. And then after, when we dopamine baseline needs to drop down to go into homeostasis, we'll go back into the state of being like, I feel stressed again. And it's and then then the nervous systems like your dopamine is really low, you need to get that up higher. And especially the society that we live in tells us if you ever feel pain, sad, lonely, bored, inadequate, something's wrong with you, and you need to fix it right away. So we don't, we don't have a lot of experience maybe sitting with dis like uncomfortable feelings because of some of the messages that we receive from its consumerism. So it puts us on what psychologists call the hedonic treadmill.
Bethan 31:05
So that ties into what you were saying a little bit earlier about kind of compulsive spending and the cycle around sort of financial denial and financial avoidance. I'm going to throw another stat your way. So Canadians, 35 years of age and younger, have the least amount of consumer debt, but are the worst are paying off their credit card balances, according to an Equifax study. And those aged 18 to 25 had a delinquency rate of 32% year over year in the third quarter of last year. So I find that really interesting because the trauma or the challenge perhaps isn't there. They have the least amount of debt and yet they're the worst at paying off. But I imagine that could lead to some issues around, you know, if you're carrying debt through your young adult life that just causes this and the cycle, again, of trauma.What are your thoughts on that?
Chantel 31:57
Yeah, that's that's a really interesting stat and I mean, I'm just going to share some of my intuitive thoughts about that stat because that's really all I have on that. And some of the things that we see within our community. It feels to me like it may be because of affordability issues and inflation and things are much more expensive now and people seem to be in a position of under earning, which under earning essentially leads to overspending and not overspending because maybe they're, you know, living large, but maybe they're overspending just to be able to survive.
Bethan 32:41
And very quickly, Chantel, I mean, we haven't actually talked about the current state of the economy, but you did bring it up, and do you feel that there will be more people entering a state of financial trauma or having, you know, are you just seeing more people with money, stress and other kind of anxiety around the financial situations as a result of this economy that we're in?
Chantel 32:57
Yeah, absolutely. I think coming out of the last few years with the pandemic, I think a lot of people's stability was really shaken. Their foundation was really shaken. And I think we're going to really start to see the impacts of that on a mental health level and on a financial level in the years to come, especially with what's happening with inflation right now. I also believe that we're going to just see more awareness around financial trauma and people now having language to describe some of the experiences that they're having, which is going to mean that more. We're going to hear about more people expressing some of these experiences, which at 1.1 side of it is painful. To that, we're going to encounter so many folks who are expressing how much stress and trauma they are in around money. And then on the other side, it's hopeful because once we can move away from that denial or that avoidance, we can actually move into a place where we can find other interventions to support folks in these painful times around money.
Cadeem 34:16
There was another term that you brought up via your work said financial codependency. I was wondering if you able to describe that for us as well as look at and how often do you see that pop up and kind of what are the most common causes or risk factors that you see that lead to financial codependency?
Chantel 34:33
We see it so much because we work mostly with women and other identities that have been marginalized, and it seems to be the one of the go to trauma responses for folks who have historically been marginalized. And what financial codependency is is when we essentially go to that forming trauma response, when we feel so, we lean into people pleasing, and it's when we prioritize other people's comfort over our own. And it's also when we are so uncomfortable with other people's discomfort that we have this overdeveloped sense of responsible it to make things right. And the reason why we have done this is because historically in the past, maybe this is something that we experienced in childhood, where we grew up in an environment where we had to become very responsible at a young age because the environment was unsafe or chaotic. We learned somewhere along the way that if I am very responsible and I kind of take ownership for other people's discomforts and priorities over my own, that's where I will be safe. And this can manifest in multiple ways around money. It can show up in under charging, under earning, not having conversations with employers or clients or customers about money, not having conversations in relationship about money. This can result in overspending. And by the way, of using your money like a please love and accept me fund. So you're the one who always gets the bill at lunch. You know, you're always kind of using your money to show your worthiness or to show your love. This can also show up in workaholism. So, you know, maybe you are working long hours to the point that you go into like, cycles of, like, workaholism, burnout, workaholism and burnout. And this could be not because you're obsessed with money and you're finding value from your work, but you might be actually people pleasing the authority figures in the work environment. This can show up in the way, as, you know, extreme risk taking. So someone says to you, hey, you know, do you want to put some money in this deal I've got? And you can't say no to that because you're in that that people pleasing trauma response and then you it's the result is you've put yourself in financial risk. So these are the some of the ways that this can show up. And like I said, it's extremely common. It's something that many folks that we work relate to it.
Cadeem 37:19
Interesting. And I know you've also you've mentioned in terms of the under charging overspending before. And I guess that basically all those of things kind overlap depending on whatever reason people come to you, you kind of feel like those are pretty common markers of people coming from financial trauma in some way.
Chantel 37:34
Yeah, that's right. So I would say the most common things that we see that cause quite a bit of distress would be financial avoidance, financial codependency. And then that can be the umbrella for financial avoidance under earning overspending. And then also another thing that we see often too, is under spending and excessive risk aversion. And so this is where, you know, some some of us may think like you only have money stress if you overspend and but there are folks who experience chronic stress because of their underspending. So these are people who might have quite a bit of money in the bank account, but they are so impacted by scarcity mindset, maybe they experience scarcity in their childhood or their ancestors did, and they were raised with a scarcity lens that they have so much anxiety. Any time they go and spend their money. And so, you know, just the simple act of buying a coffee is someone having in this situation their nervous system might be so activated or, you know, maybe even they're afraid to put money in a bank account or they won't open investment. And that's all guided by fear. So this is another area where financial disruption and money disruption that we see that does impact people significantly.
Bethan 39:04
If our listeners today have, you know, heard this conversation and think, okay, now, yeah, I think I have some form of financial trauma or I'm stressed about this or that, where can they go for that help? Do you find that, you know, financial advisors are talking about that today, or is it more like reading about it through blogs and as you said, it's kind of financial literacy websites and things like that. What would your advice be for for our listeners?
Chantel 39:33
Well, one thing I'm so excited about is it's becoming a hot topic right now, this healing the relationship with money, financial trauma. So on many platforms you can most likely interact with some content. I know we've got tons of trauma of money certified alumni who are on TikTok making incredible videos and that's really amazing is to my colleagues Dr. Brad and Ted Klein's. They are financial psychologists in the U.S. and they're working with the CFP designation because CFP has now made it mandatory to have a financial psychology module in their training.
And so this is incredible that we're starting to see financial professionals have this awareness. And then in our organization, we're starting to work more of those financial professionals as well to bring this new level of awareness. So our whole dream and vision is that all financial professionals will be equipped with trauma sensitivity tools, and they can add that into their offering.
00;40;34;16 - 00;41;14;01
Unknown
And to access this yourself. Now, if you don't know a financial professional like that, even our website Trauma of Money, we have a directory of professionals who have gone through our certifications. You can find a trauma of money, certified accountant or a CFP, but there's many spaces where you can access community of healing. For example, even Debtors Anonymous or there's Underwriters Anonymous or there's meetings for, you know, your worth and there's so many resources out there and and you know, in the work that we do, we get to interact because we're a professional certification program. We get to interact with all these amazing professionals that are really integral, leading this lens into their offering, whether they're life coaches, business coaches, trauma therapists, accountants, mortgage brokers, CFPs.
Bethan 41:33
That's well, it certainly sounds like there's a lot out there for people. So thank you for raising awareness with our audience today. Thank you for joining us on Half Banked.
Chantel 41:43
Thanks for having me!
Bethan 41:47
And that was half banked. If you'd like this episode, be sure to subscribe, rate and review us on Apple, Spotify or wherever you're listening to this podcast.
Cadeem 41:56
Special thanks to executive producer Samantha Emann and producers Kevin Hamilton, Jenny Potter, Shane Murphy, Jane Sebastian, Mary Alcober and technical producer Mohammed Tabish. This episode was edited by Lead Podcasting.