Not Your Traditional House: Van Living and Tiny Homes

The Next Generation of Homebuying Part 3

The dream of homeownership can seem unattainable, especially with the average one-bedroom apartment rental in Canada costing just over $700 a month and 29% of Canadians resigning to renting forever. Fortunately, today's episode focuses on alternative home-buying strategies, which may be the light at the end of the tunnel for many aspiring home buyers. Tiny homes or van living might be a way out of renting for the rest of your life.

On this episode of Half Banked, we interview three guests: Comedian Matt Watson, as well as tiny home builders and experts Roger Allan Gallant and Bianca Metz. All of them have experience in alternative housing. Matt Watson enjoys the freedom of van living and lives a nearly nomadic lifestyle that aligns with his career. Roger and Bianca are experts in the tiny homes field and have built, purchased, and helped others create tiny homes to suit their needs.

Mobile or tiny homes may be a great option if you'd like to break free of renting forever. 

Here are three reasons why you should listen to this episode:

1. Learn about the freedom and affordability benefits of living in tiny homes.
2. Discover how the tiny home market may evolve and grow in the coming years.
3. Understand the demographic trends and factors driving the popularity of tiny homes.

Guests

About Matt Watson

Matt Watson is a comedian making his living out of a van. He takes a relaxed and sincere approach to comedy and has done shows all over the world.
Connect with Matt through Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram. You can also follow him on YouTube or visit his website for videos and show dates.

About Roger Allan Gallant

Roger Allan Gallant founded EcoEnviroBuilders, which builds environmentally friendly, off-grid, and affordable tiny homes. He's built several homes for families and lived in five different ones himself.
You can connect with Roger through the EcoEnviroBuilders Facebook page.

About Bianca Metz

Bianca Metz founded Giving Tree Tiny Homes, a consulting company that helps Canadians build their own tiny homes.
Connect with Bianca through the Giving Tree website, Instagram, or LinkedIn.

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Transcript

Bethan Moorcroft: Welcome back to Half Banked. I'm Bethan Moorcroft.

Cadeem Lalor: And I’m Cadeem Lalor.

Bethan: Thanks for joining us for the third episode in our three-part real estate series, the Next Generation of Homebuyers.

Cadeem: In part three, we're exploring alternatives to traditional homes. According to rentals.ca, the average one-bedroom apartment rental in Canada cost just over $1,700 a month. This can impact a renter's ability to save for home. This has also led to an increase in the amount of millennials living with family or roommates according to research by University of Western Professor Kate Choi, and University of Toronto Professor Segi Ramaj

Bethan: The average cost of a home in Canada is around $716,000 as of April 2023. And of course, the price is even higher in hotspots like Vancouver and Toronto. A March 2023 study by Finder, “Generation Rent” also showed that 29% of Canadians have given up on the idea of homeownership altogether and expect to rent forever.

Cadeem: So far we've given you tips for the home buying journey. But we've been working on the assumption that you want to buy a traditional home.

Bethan: Maybe you want to travel a lot and don't want to splurge on renting or buying a home, you might elect to try van living, you won't have much space or a proper place to call home, or a bathroom, but it can offer freedom and savings.

Cadeem: Or maybe a traditional house seems too out of reach financially. A traditional home is about 1500 square feet in Ontario and the space will cost you. Maybe a tiny home which is about 100 to 400 square feet is more for you. You can afford a cheaper option for a congested and competitive housing market.

Bethan: Today we're discussing alternative home buying strategies. We'll chat with comedian Matt Watson about living the van life and all the benefits and challenges that come along with that.

Cadeem: We'll also discuss the pros and cons of tiny homes with Bianca Metz, the tiny home consultant for The Giving Tree based in Ontario, and Roger Allan Gallant, owner and operator of Eco-Enviro Builders, a tiny home builder based in PEI.

Cadeem: Our first guest is Matt Watson, the comedian and storyteller from Russell, Ontario who's performed all over the world and can frequently be heard on SiriusXM radio. For the moment he's planted in Russell, but spent two years in Australia and several other places. Welcome.

Matt Watson: Thanks for having me. Kadeem. You got a beautiful speaking voice, buddy. I'm happy you're doing something with audio and because it's just, it's lovely. Like it's very soothing.

Cadeem: Ah, thank you.

Matt: Not lulling me to sleep, but just very also compelling. But you got a great speaking voice, buddy. It's very smooth.

Cadeem: Alright, appreciate it. Thank you.

Matt: No problem.

Cadeem: I'll try to stay humble for the rest of the interview as well. So we'll dive into you know, obviously, question probably get all the time. But what compelled you to try this life out, the van living?

Matt: I don't think it's the way that most people end up diving into it. Because, for me, I just wanted to do comedy. And here in Canada, the cities just seem to be so far apart, that it just made financial sense to sleep in your transportation.

So like weirdly enough, I remember taking like one of those quizzes in high school that like they give you a few questions. And then they say like one of these careers you might like is being like a firefighter because you picked x, y and z. I remember saying on that, that I do not like traveling.

Yeah, it's so crazy. And to be honest, again, it was all the comedy that fueled that I just love doing stand up. And within that, that sort of helped me fall in love with traveling itself. I hadn't even been to the west coast of Canada prior to doing this and so it's a lot of the reasons that I've seen a lot of my country and a few different parts of the world too.

So yeah, I definitely am a big fan of it now but out of the gate, it was just a means to an end I guess for me.

Bethan: Do you miss any of the home comforts though?

Matt: Of course all those creature comforts. You just start to get into a routine I guess and that just becomes your normal. What are some things that I'd missed though? It just becomes a little bit more, it becomes a little bit more tricky, tricky living without a constant you know source of power.

With both my vehicle here in Canada and over there in Australia, both of the batteries — they call them leisure batteries which would be you know, bonus batteries to charge maybe your fridge or your computer or whatever — I have a couple of those in. Well one in Australia, two here, and then when you're driving around it will charge that battery.

But people online that you see doing this thing like they're you know they're always on like a beach they've got like six packs, their dogs have six packs for some reason, like it's not a real projection of what this is all what this really is.

But for me, a guy that's doing comedy, usually I'm in a city and not necessarily moving around all that much so I need to be careful with what I'm spending all this power on because you know as soon as your fridge dies, you're losing all your food in there.

I've got a buddy in Australia that believe it or not really into hockey and as I would stream the games probably just on my phone once I got to know him he was inviting me over to his place to watch it on like his big 70 inch screen TV.

That's something I'm sure that as you would with anything you get, you know eventually you take it for granted but every time I went over to watch one of those games you know in comparison to watching on such a tiny screen I was just mesmerized by this IMAX setup that he's got going so.

Bethan: You actually see the puck.

Matt: Yeah. I actually knew who won the game which was nice.

Cadeem: One thing you mentioned as well was social media kind of like having a more romanticized idea of what van living looks like. I guess I was wondering what kind of the biggest differences you find in reality kind of versus how it's usually portrayed, or what you've come across at least?

Matt: Some of the biggest differences… I always see so many happy couples doing van life. I have a lovely girlfriend over in Australia and she had never tried camping before. In her defense I do this lifestyle pretty rough. It's pretty- my setups are usually pretty primitive.

But we did it for a few nights she absolutely, she hates it like she could not stand it whatsoever. So part of me like seeing these happy couples, man like there's another incident with an ex in Scotland, where we had planned on taking this vehicle that I was working on in our parking lot around the North Coast 500 they call it. It's just around the outer rim, the north coast of Scotland.

I was done building the vehicle but unfortunately as I was done building the vehicle, our relationship ended but we decided to take the trip anyway because she was adamant and I'm you know, I'm always looking for new material.

So we piled into this vehicle and like couples therapy might be a thing. Couples van therapy, I am not an advocate for like it is not that's if you're having troubles with the person you're with. And you have space between you don't jam it all into such a tiny space.

Cadeem: Absolutely.

Bethan: So Matt, you were talking about kind of, you know, making new material etc. The poster for your show, your one man show, Van Lord, shows you outside your van and your boxes, holding up some toilet paper in some fantastic socks. So that begs the question which I'm sure you get all the time. What do you do when you don't have a bathroom? Or you know, things like that. Kind of how do you manage all of that?

Matt: First of all, Bethan thank you so much for complimenting that photo. It's like my pride and joy. I was picturing. Like the front cover of Breaking Bad with Walter White in his underwear. That's what I was going for. It was COVID time so I had the toilet paper in my hand and the wind just caught it at the right time like that. I've been getting a little better with Photoshop, but that one is straight up as it is. So I appreciate you

Bethan: The six pack is underneath the t-shirt.

Matt: Yes, right? Yes, of course. Bathrooms. So it's not glamorous, this is not glamorous, this is the stuff that would have to be censored on social media. So if I need to pee, I usually have a jar of some sort. I know that's not pretty and it's not what you want to hear. But maybe keep that in your back pocket in case tI ever invite you over. I'll be handing you a jar if you're asking to use the toilet.

The van that I have here, I do have what they call a, it’s even more, whatever. It's called boom box. It's just a bucket with a toilet seat on it that you would insert bags in. Truth be told I've never actually had to use it. That was for an emergency situation whilst traveling around. I'm pretty good at finding public toilets.

That and if you're doing comedy, usually that's in a venue of some sort. I've learned to make sure to use the washroom before I leave. Coffee shops are also great. I've had a gym pass in a few different countries then you can just sort of go in and use it there and then you may end up even maybe working out as well to get your money's worth on that pass.

Some people have different setups, some people have compost toilets, or cassette toilets I guess is what this what the other ones are called. Again, my setups are pretty primitive. So I've never been that much of a diva that I need a bathroom in my humble abode.

Cadeem: But wondering, did you use a more primitive setup so there's a study by Barefoot Theory that says van life can cost anywhere from $800 a month to $2,000 a month and that includes the cost you know, outside of the van itself? Gas insurance, food and so forth. Are you able to kind of walk us through some of your regular monthly expenses?

Matt: Yeah, yeah, sure. So dude, I really don't do this like the people that you see online. You would think if someone had a house with wheels, they'd be obsessed with taking it everywhere and don't get me wrong. I do take road trips with it. But I've sort of fallen in love with my routine in Melbourne.

Within that routine there is a little spot in this neighborhood that is free parking 24/7. It's got a public bathroom nearby so I don't move all that much. And in the park there's a place to cook too, so I’m starting to use my cooking setup within my own vehicle. So I do it for very cheap.

I guess my biggest expense is probably, I always spend a little bit extra on the phone bill. Well, I mean, some people have modem setups, but I don't have Wi Fi in my vehicle. So everything's being run out of that. But I want to use my laptop or my phone because I do weekly videos on my YouTube channel, Matt Watson Comedy. So I've got a, you know, I got a way to be able to charge my stuff and upload stuff like that. So maybe that's like actually 50 or 60 bucks a month, maybe something like that.

The phone bill, phone plans are a lot cheaper anywhere but Canada. They seem to be somewhat cheaper everywhere else. I found out recently that in the state of Victoria, where Melbourne is, you don't actually — assuming my friend wasn't messing with me — you don't need insurance on your vehicle. I do have the bare minimum which covers if I were to hit somebody, it's not much. It's like no more than let's say two hundred bucks a year or something like that.

There's the registration for the vehicle. That's probably a few hundred bucks a year. Like it really does depend how how you do it. Gas wise, I'm not spending all that much because I'm not moving all that much.

Cadeem: And I'm wondering as well, since you've touched on, you touched on parking, you mentioned Wi Fi. So when are those kind of like extra expenses that usually come up because I know, parking can be tough to find. And that's kind of like one of those costs that might creep up on you at times? Because I know there's also Reddit forums specifically for van living places to find parking spots and so forth people recommend via those forums. I was wondering about you how, like how you managed to save money on that piece. You said where your park is free now like how do you go about finding those spots where you also won't get hassled?

Matt: Cadeem, that is my wheelhouse buddy. That is I pride myself on not paying for parking. It's oh, man, it's got to be so annoying if you're ever driving with me. And especially if we're late for something like I don't settle. I do not settle when it comes to parking spots. If I'm going to a new city, I will try to see if I can find anything online. Like for instance, I wanted to do a video about parking in in Sydney and I've only been there one other time.

So before you know going and spending a week or two there, I was able to find what was it called it was called Sydney spot finder. And literally, you could tick boxes on free like overnight, or like free overall. Yeah, so I was like circling areas where there were spots so I had an idea of where to go and checked out.

And like I tell people to like you go with your gut. When you're trying to find a parking spot, you want to feel you want to feel safe, obviously, I think instinctually a lot of us have that within our core of like, if you feel comfortable in a particular space, you should listen to that. And if you feel safe, then yeah, that's your spot.

Bethan: Well, it sounds like you really like living in a van. Would do you go back to living in a traditional four-wall home, apartment? Like what would push you to make that decision these days?

Matt: I'm sure I'm sure age will get me there at some point. Okay. I'm not in the van 24/7. In Australia, my girlfriend's got this lovely place just about an hour and a half south of Melbourne down the coast. And it's in a little town called Mornington. And it's beautiful.

So obviously, when I went to when I'm there half the week, I'm not like I'm not stubbornly staying in the driveway in the vehicle. I am relishing the opportunity to be to be in that beautiful home with her. But at the same time, I don't know, man, there's something that like, I don't get it every morning. But occasionally I’ll wake up in the morning. I'm in a foreign country. And I'm just I'm free. I got no ties, and I just get it I get this feeling like I'm just getting away with something, you know, and it gives me I don't know, makes me excited. Yeah, so I'm sure someday I'll end up in a home. But for now I'm gonna keep rolling with this lifestyle.

Cadeem: So lots of, you know, ups and downs for van living, financially and other and other ways too for our listeners to take in. So thank you very much for sharing your experiences with us, Matt.

Matt: No, thank you so much for having me. I hope you guys hope you guys have a great day.

Bethan: So, Cadeem, do you feel the van life calling?

Cadeem: As much as I like talking to Matt, I will have to say no, I think a piece of that lifestyle in terms of like reaping the benefits also requires just a psychological shift to kind of needing less things, wanting more freedom, wanting to move around more, you know. Even if you're not moving every day, it still doesn't offer as much stability, I guess, as you know, as a traditional condo or whatever it is. Something I'd like to try but just, you know, for long term, for me, for multiple years at a time, I don't know if it's something that I could commit to.

Bethan: Yeah, definitely. Think it'd be fun to do it a holiday vacation, go away for a few weeks. See the world. Now that you're going to do that in a few weeks.

Cadeem: But then it's not really can living.

Bethan: Yeah, true. True. Exactly. So that actually proves the point that we were talking about that people like me look at and go wow, you know, you can drive anywhere and see anything but actually it's a style of living rather than just, you know, a mode of transport.

Cadeem: Yeah, so road tripper, we don't quite fit into that category. I can definitely admire it too. I mean, it can be a great way just to save money and travel. But just personally for me long term, the cards and I think even though what he did mention that as he gets older possibly might want to have more stability, and by that time settle down then gets older for him could be, you know, 50s. Who knows?

Bethan: Yeah, it's interesting, I think I, I like a lot of the reasons behind van living. But I think I prefer the idea of living in a tiny home, a static tiny home, or even when on wheels, with a few more of the home comforts that you can have.

Our next two guests are two tiny home experts from two very different parts of Canada. And they've got lots of good advice to share.

Cadeem: Our next guest is Roger Alan Gallant, owner and operator of EcoEnviro Builders, a tiny home builder based in PEI. Welcome, Roger.

Roger Allan Gallant: Thank you. Happy to be here.

Cadeem: Thank you. So first of all, if you'd like to just talk a little bit about yourself, I mean, I've read a little bit about how you got to tiny homes if you just want to share that in your own words. 

Roger: Well, about eight years ago, I went on a trip with an ex-girlfriend to Australia, and we lived in the back of a van for a short time. And I decided this was the way I want to live my life. So coming back to Canada, we had to do something a little different.

Obviously, we have winter, it's not summer, 365 days of the year. So I decided I was going to build my first off-grid tiny home in her backyard. The rest is history. About a year later, I moved into it and wish I'd done it years ago.

Cadeem: I guess part of you that seemed like for you is a feeling of freedom, basically with switching over to a tiny home, as opposed to I guess your traditional home before. Right?

Roger: Absolutely. It's the main reason I'm doing this. I've always wanted to do it. This was just the right time to flip. I've always wanted to live simpler, mortgage free, provide my own things. Never understood why we live in such large homes. I'm much more enjoying the freedom of my lifestyle. Absolutely.

Cadeem: I see the tiny home market is estimated to grow by over $4 million, you know, by 2027, according to a report by Technavio. So you've mentioned your reasons you've talked about freedom and so forth. Why do you think basically some of your clients are coming to you? What makes it an option for them that they want to seek out?

Roger: I think part two things. One is the freedom of living off grid exclusively build off grid homes. I don't tie to the grid, we go with composting everything, solar systems, propane heat for water and cooking and wood stoves.

And the other reason is I'm affordable. To be honest with you. The whole reason I started doing this was because I was watching people build tiny homes for $100,000. I thought that's absolutely ridiculous. I mean, I can make one for way less. My first home was $11,000. And it was beautiful. That includes all solar gear.

So from that point forward, I've made it my mission for those that can't afford the $100,000 tiny home or a $200,000 regular home or whatever they are nowadays, I want to build something at a fair price that somebody can afford from somebody who actually lives the lifestyle, not somebody who's living in a large home, building your expensive tiny homes.

Cadeem: Alright, so it’s $11,000. I'm wondering, so in terms of what you're selling for, and then how much it costs to make. I just want to verify the numbers. So just the difference between those two.

Roger: So that was obviously my first home. And that was eight years ago, things have change drastically with COVID%. Nowadays, with COVID, a 40 foot shipping containers, what I build in, that's what I'm sitting in right now. This present build is at a cost of about $40,000. That includes my labor and everything so far, and we have probably somewhere between 5-10to go. That includes your solar panel, your wood stove, your cookstove, your fridges, batteries, everything you need, including me going to the place where she's dropping it, digging her solar well, building her some decks, everything for will be well under $50,000 I'm sure.

Could I do it for less? Absolutely, if you can thrift one and find recycled materials, that type of thing. You can be far less, I can spend more. But really, why should we?

Bethan: So Roger, is it often a project where you know people like you, they want to go into this tiny home lifestyle they come to you, they want to work on it together? Is it a passion project?

Roger: For them I imagine is to- I don't get a lot of people that want to do the whole thing with me. More so what I may get is I may stop at a certain point and they'll take off with my assistance, from a satellite or over a phone or that type of thing.

But I've also had clients where I've built it to a point where they have a nice shell, it’s fine inside. And then they take it home and then two years later I go and finish it for them because life gets in their way.

So by all means that you're welcome to finish off yourself or work side by side with me. I haven't experienced that as of yet. I find most people unfortunately have their lives and jobs to go so they just let me go about my work and at the end of the day, they're happy with what just happened.

Cadeem: And you've also mentioned I think when you spoke before you mentioned that your client base he says roughly, would you say about half millennials? They’re 25 to 34? Is that right?

Roger: Yeah, I get all age groups asking you lately that have built for, like you say everybody is over 30 up to up to close to seniors. But absolutely we get a lot of young, I get, the younger people are more willing to do it themselves. Does that makes sense? Because they want to save money, they don't have the income yet, they don't have the savings that maybe somebody who is 40 plus does.

So what I find is, those are the ones who come to me for free information, which I am more than happy to give you all the advice in the world, show you where I live, show you how to build, I can come to your project and give you a day's worth of work and put you back on the right track. That type of thing.

But it's definitely the younger, the younger generation 30 and under who are more willing to do the sweat equity themselves.

Bethan: I'm interested in the off grid part of this, and how you power tiny homes. As you know, Roger, we're talking today, over a platform using the internet, you're in a tiny home out in PEI. So, you know, all of that requires power, everything we do. So you know, how do you factor that into the building process and what sort of unique ways a tiny home dwellers using to, you know, get on grid, so to speak?

Roger: So this house is completely powered by four solar panels, which is about 1000 watt system. That's not a lot. I'm sure there are people out there going you can’t power a house with 1000 watts. If you get rid of the things in your regular house that consume the big electrical draws, you can absolutely power a house with four solar panels.

In today's day, most of us are cell phones, laptops, internet, maybe a little bit of television. The television really isn't much of a draw. Your laptops, cell phones, and internet are nothing. My biggest draw is actually Starlink — internet. Other than that, it's nothing in my home. And now that you're using propane for a cookstove and propane to heat your water, you've taken away those big heating elements out of regular house.

And that was about 90% of your power needs. So other than lights, running a solar fridge and charging the occasional laptop, there's no real electrical use being used I probably only use — this was before a Starlink — maybe 500 watts of power a day.

But now with Starlink I'm probably turning it on and off and probably 1000. Still more than enough for my panels to run. There are certain days in the dark dark of winter, where you have to live around the weather, you're looking at the weather going, it's going to be cloudy, the next seven days, I'd better watch what I'm using. You have to be responsible. Yes.

Cadeem: I'm also wondering, in terms of looking at, you know, traditional homes like have you had much experience also, you know, building traditional homes. And I guess if you're looking at the comparison of building a tiny one, aside from obviously, size considerations, are there anything else in particular that clients kind of keep in consideration when building a tiny home instead?

Roger: Now, I've never built a large home. The one main thing that I would say that I noticed the difference from having lived in a large home to a small one. It's a smaller space, you have to watch condensation, possibly, or moisture in your home. But if you have a stove and you’re willing to keep a window cracked, you're never going to have an issue.

In the coldest of winter days. You don't want to put things in the lower corners of the house and allow air not to circulate. So I designed my home so everything is up off the ground and all the bottom can flow easy. You put a tiny little fan on top of the stove and your air circulates you'll have absolutely zero mold, zero condensation, no moisture problems whatsoever.

Cadeem: And then as we sort of wrap up, I guess I'm also wondering when it comes to building a tiny home to trying to make space work in that development. Are there any specific things you've used to basically kind of create more space in a sense for a small area?

Roger: Well, I mean, you gotta use every corner by all means, but this is a 40 foot shipping container is actually quite large. I think, considering my own personal home is three sheets of plywood built 10 feet high. So it's about a third of the size of this. It's no different than probably a bachelor studio apartment in Toronto, you have a four by eight bedroom or bathroom at the end. My kitchen is eight feet long, double sided, and I'm sitting in the living room.

And then I have a bed which you can see in the ceiling that lowers. So I actually have a dance floor over there. If I really want to have a party. I actually have quite a bit of room. It's probably more so about being minimalistic in yourself and not touting your house with a ton of gadgets and trinkets. But at the end of the day it's your house. Live in it how you want.

Cadeem: I guess then I guess that will be a consideration if you want to live that lifestyle, understanding that there likely will be some, you know, clutter possessions that might have to go in order to make it work compared to all the things that we accumulate sometimes.

Roger: Yeah, you're not getting the big sectional couch in here. You're living somewhat on a smaller, simpler scale but absolutely. I have everything inside of my home, even my home, which is 89 square feet that you do in your bigger home. It's just a smaller space. I've always told people I can be equally as bored inside of 89 square feet as I can 2000.

Cadeem: That's very true. 

Bethan: Um, Roger, you said that you've lived in three tiny homes. Is that correct? 

Roger: Lived in three? No, one, two, three. I'm living in my fifth one right now that I personally built.

Bethan: Okay. Well, that's cool. Number one. Number two, I'm wondering about the resale value of tiny homes. So is this an investment that someone can make in their 20s or 30s and then maybe their life changes? They have a family, they might want to move into a bigger space? Can they resell that and make money kind of? What does that market look like?

Roger: I've never lost money on any of the homes I've sold. I've always sold them for cost plus, now most homes are attached to a piece of land, and generally it’s the piece of land that goes up so greatly in value.

What with that said, again, I've had people sell a home, the young lady I made it for, I think it cost her just under 40. And I know she sold it for 60. So that's a couple years later. So there's profit to be made, if you want to do it, by all means. 

Bethan: Yeah, definitely. And I can already guess the answer. But would you ever consider going back into a traditional home?

Cadeem: Shaking his head already.

Roger: I can't give up this lifestyle. It's too freeing for me. And I've always been a bit of a nomad and I've always wanted to live this way. My sisters always used to say, I could live in a cardboard box. Now it’s a steel one but I just I'd rather be outside than inside.

Cadeem: Thank you very much. I think anything that helps to clear up a lot of the questions our listeners might have about tiny homes and also maybe motivate them in case they're thinking about it to try to go down that route. So thank you very much for your time today. Roger it, really appreciate it.

Roger: No problem.

Bethan: Our next guest is Bianca Metz.. Director of Sustainable Spaces, Lead Tiny Home Consultant for The Giving Tree, and a co producer of the Tiny Home Show based in Ontario. Welcome, Bianca.

Bianca Metz: Thank you. Hello.

Bethan: So Bianca, tiny homes are obviously a huge part of your work and home life. How did your tiny homes journey begin?

Bianca: That is a wonderful question. Our tiny home journey began much like any large lifestyle shift, you kind of have to reach a precipice in order to enact kind of a significant change. And my husband and I were living in a condo. We were conventional homeowners, both of us have a really profound relationship with nature. So living in a condo wasn't in total alignment with who we are and what we value.

At this point, we were pregnant with our first child, Bodie, well I was pregnant, we were not. With our first child, Bodie, and we were living in the condo, I was working, you know, really long hours at my job to pay for our bills. You know, 3000 plus a month was quite significant, even five years ago.

I actually ended up working so hard that I gave birth to my son early, six weeks early, I ended up going into labor. And that was really the crux. We decided that, you know, this lifestyle is not conducive to a happy, healthy relationship or family life. And there was no balance. When my health was at risk and the health of my baby was at risk, we decided to make a really drastic lifestyle shift. We quite literally sold everything that we owned, we sold our condo, we got out of the housing market, and we bought a $60,000 tiny home on wheels on Kijiji.

Bethan: Wow. Well, I think a lot of people would go, whoa, you know, that is a big decision, especially with a baby.

Bianca: Yes, it was a very big decision. And we did get a lot of feedback from family and friends. Most people were in support. The rest were just cautious on our behalf and really hoping that we were making the right decision. And we're really glad that we took the jump, especially when you know, a year or so later COVID hit and so yeah, it was that supported, but also I think people had cautious optimism.

Bethan: I think it's interesting when you think about condos. Even based in Toronto, there's a lot of glass boxes in the sky. Not much space. You know, do you feel, even though you're now living in a tiny home, you know, do you feel like you've actually gained more space and kind of built a bigger life for your family?

Bianca: 1,000% We, yes, big time, we might have gone from 1000 square feet to 240 square feet. But now we have access to land, we have access to nature. We live on six acres where we are so we're land stewards to the property that we live at. And we take care of that property in harmony with nature and we're always putting that first and the lifestyle difference between having zero access to nature, you know, at our front door, as opposed to now we're we walk out our front door and we're in the middle of the woods.

And so not everyone will have that opportunity of course. But with that intentional lifestyle shift, we now spend most of our time outdoors. That was a big purpose into why we decided to make the shift. So I would say we may have downsized our space. But that gave us a lot more than I think the conventional 1200 square feet would have ever given us.

Bethan: We've talked a lot about, you know, affordable housing, how young people can get on the housing ladder on this podcast. Can you walk us through actually some of the concrete costs, if you don't mind? So, you know, on average, how much would it cost to buy a tiny home? How much does it cost to fund it in terms of energy? You mentioned insurance, you mentioned a few other things like that, is this a more sort of affordable way of life for young professionals?

Bianca: Yeah, absolutely. This is definitely not going to be affordable for everyone. But there are always pockets of the community in which this is going to be affordable for. And so for the kind of breaking up the costs, I section things out in terms of the land, and the build. And the land itself, we are assuming that the person who owns the property is setting up the infrastructure for that.

So if someone is hoping to host a tiny home tenant, they can expect to pay between 10, you know, upwards of around $20,000 to set up a pad or a parking spot. And I'm air quoting “parking spot” for a tiny home. And so that also kind of financially can be absorbed in a much quicker manner than that property owner building their own additional dwelling unit and renting that out. The turnaround in investment on that is much shorter, a couple couple of years depending on the lease agreement.

From the end user standpoint, from the tiny home person, they can expect to pay anywhere from at the very low end 50, 60, $75,000 on a self contained tiny home all the way up to around $250,000 on a fully custom, large, triple X. Very, very large, tiny home. And so I understand that range is quite broad. But that is also for a reason.

Oftentimes you get what you pay for when it comes to everything in this world. But in terms of the tiny home world, it is really hard to navigate, because we're really in the thick of the movement. So there are a lot of builders who are capitalizing on that. But then there are a lot of ethically priced structures.

Now for other soft costs, you're looking at a lease fee. So on the low end of the lease fee, I put that at $0. And the reason I do that is, for example, my family and I don't pay any lease fee. We are land stewards, so we actually do a sweat equity work exchange. We take care of the six acres that we live on for the person who owns the property. And that amount of effort and work that goes into maintaining this property pays for itself very quickly. That part of the property owner saves 1000s of dollars a year just for us to do that.

So from there, you can look at conventional RV park trailer park kind of parking spot fees around 350 to 550. The higher end where we're going to see a lot of these scenarios are going to settle around 750 to $1,000 for a lease fee per month. So you can expect a finance payment if you are financing the project or your home, and then a lease fee as well.

And then other soft costs would be for example, using a lawyer for the land lease agreement or realtor — that can be around 800 to 1500. You can also look into things such as adding furniture and different infrastructure to your home, different, you know, an incinerating toilet is $5,000 whereas a composting toilet is $2,500. And then the grand scheme of things $2,500 can actually go a long way to saving you some money. So those are realistically a lot of the major cost considerations. And then there are of course, a lot of other soft costs, depending on the living situation that you find.

Cadeem: Thank you. And in terms of costs, I guess as we sort of wrap up here. So you mentioned you have the sweat equity arrangement that you have where you can live in currently, you mentioned the having a leasing someone else's land paying for that plot is wondering in terms of how common those kind of setups are, and other common ways to finance tiny homes. You mentioned mortgages from traditional lenders too?

Bianca: Yes, so in terms of financing a tiny home, there are a couple methods. So it depends on the type of home you buy. So a lot of tiny homes are still certified as recreational vehicles, even though they're built to building code and they're built as habitable dwellings, but the only way that the market would, or the financing market specifically would issue loans for these is if the home had a VIN number.

So that means it's a recreational vehicle and thus you could secure RV financing for it. Basically for the last five plus years that is how people have secured their loans for their tiny homes. Now that the market is exploding, of course we have people falling in line. We have lenders who are hoping to kind of get on this movement. And so now we have more conventional mortgages In conventional loans, so of course, with anything that's new, and anything that's relatively high risk, you have higher interest rates or shorter amortization.

So you can expect for, for example, $100,000 loan might bring you at about a $900 payment or $100, payment per month for 25 years, a $200,000, tiny home would bring you at about $1,600 per month for around 25 years, depending on your interest rate.

So in the grand scheme of things, it could be very beneficial for someone who say, has sold their million dollar house and now has a quarter of a million dollars to potentially just toss at this and then they won’t carry a mortgage.

But for those couples or individuals who have gainful income, who will never be able to enter into the housing market, this is affordable, because they can have their own self contained unit, they can have their own home, their peace of mind, that's an a piece of equity as well, that's an asset. 

Cadeem: And I was just wondering, because you're talking about. So now it's not just survival, I've got a bit about environmental, but are there other things you think that could appeal to younger generation about second living that they might not know about something that they might not think about going in, that also will kind of give them a bigger benefit when they get in?

Bianca: Oh, consumption. Consumption is probably one of my absolute favorite topics to talk about. When I started The Giving Tree, I was actually doing a lot of coaching in downsizing this kind of mindset, I built an entire kind of coaching program, or around my own downsizing journey, moving from a condo into the tiny house, how to utilize all those small spaces, and I became a completely different consumer.

By doing that our finances started looking completely different. And so one of the kind of key aspects that I would talk about is our systems and our habits. And it's really something that we as a society don't ever really focus on. And so systems and habits are things that you develop throughout your life that you for example, mirror from growing up in the house, you grew up in maybe where your parents put their keys, you put their keys in your current house, where the mail goes in, in the house you grew up, that's where it goes, where the junk drawer is, where your shoes go, we're doing a lot of modeling and emulating from how we grew up.

So those systems and habits were built from a generation that is not our generation. So we're building consumption habits based on a totally different generation and their financial price points. So when you downsize, and when you make these intentional shifts, you are really doing so at the benefit to yourself, because you'll start to learn about what you need and what you don't need.

You'll start to learn about how you can see what you spend your money on, you'll start to realize you don't have space for all the things you'll start to realize you don't need all the things.

Bethan: I just have to ask one thing about that, which is how do you manage that with Bodie? I don't know how old he is. But, you know, I don't have any children myself, but just based on TV shows, etc. There's mess everywhere. There's toys everywhere. There's clothes everywhere. So how do you manage that in a tiny home?

Bianca: Yeah, I mean, that doesn't not happen.

Bethan: You're very good at cleaning. 

Bianca: Yeah, I'm extremely intentional about what we bring in. Of course, he is a challenge. You know, he sees all of his friends with big homes and basements full of toys and he wonders why he doesn't have that. So there's a lot of coaching him through understanding why we live how we live. I think he holds some embarrassment because he doesn't get it. He's five and a half that I think that was about around age four.

Now he's at a point where he goes into other people's houses and he says, mommy, how are we going to always live in our tiny house? And I say, well, maybe we'll get a bigger house eventually. That's the plan. And he's like, Mommy, I don't I don't want to I love my tiny house. I love it. And so that's that for him. The mentality is really lovely.

Bethan: Thank you so much for sharing your story personal and you know, your work experience as well. Lots of great learnings and takeaways there. For our listeners, I've certainly learned a lot and I'm sure Cadeem has too, so Bianca, thank you so much for joining us.

Bianca: Thank you so much for having me. This was lovely, thank you for doing what you're doing and sharing all of these lovely gifts to the world. So thank you.

Bethan: So, Cadeem, after hearing Roger, and Bianca share their insights on tiny homes, what would you say stood out for you?

Cadeem: One thing was just the difference in prices, because I was wondering if that could just be down to the difference in housing markets, which we've discussed before, like he I think he said it can start off at $10,000 At least if he's doing a container fix up. And in comparison, looking at Ontario market, I think Bianca had mentioned, you know, 50,000 plus, and I guess it also differs and method too, it could be container versus doing it another way cost more.

What stood out most really is that it's a lot more complicated than I thought in terms of licensing fees, permits and so forth. It's a complicated field, but I guess it can still pay off some dividends for a younger audience.

Bethan: I thought it was interesting when Bianca broke down what you'd actually be paying, and how that compared personally to the rent that I'm paying here in Toronto, which is relatively high. But for you know, it pays off because I wouldn't be owning my own space. I would be building my own home. So you know, you have to figure out what's important to you. When making that decision, I suppose.

Cadeem: For sure, I thought the sweat equity arrangement that she has is very interesting as well. It can definitely work for, you know, younger audience, for sure, I think is if you're managing to do that, if you're managing six acres, that's pretty strenuous.

But I think it's like I said, if that works for that, oh, that sounds like a pretty interesting deal. Not something you hear about regularly for sure.

Bethan: The nature side of it definitely is something that appeals to me. I think, you know, when you have a small internal space, you need to be able to create and be sort of free outside. And it sounds like you know, they've worked that out as a family and that's so nice to hear. And I'm sure that's something that a lot of other tiny home dwellers enjoy too. So that would be the one thing that appealed to me.

Cadeem: I will also add that just with, I think both her and Roger, they both mentioned that even though the space on paper it seems small that there is a lot of space. For Bianca it's six acres of space they have outside but even with Roger, within the home itself, just the way it's set up, it does feel like it's very spacious. He was like he might be a bit better than a one bedroom apartment it Toronto. And there's also might be more space outside to make up for that as well plus lower costs. So he's like there's lots of benefits for someone who might be interested in that

Bethan: You can create a big home in a tiny space.

Cadeem: That concludes our three part real estate series the next generation of home buying. We hope you enjoyed that found it helpful.

Bethan: If you liked this episode, be sure to subscribe, rate and review us on Apple Spotify or wherever you're listening to this podcast. If you want to get in touch with us, you can email us at hello@halfbanked.com.

Cadeem: Special thanks to executive producer Samantha Eamon and producers Kevin Hamilton, Shane Murphy, James Madison and technical producers Mary Alcubierre and Muhammad Tabish. This episode was edited by Lead Podcasting. Until next time.