The Question and Costs Of Becoming A Parent

The decision to become a parent is a big one, and it's important to consider all the factors involved, including the financial ones. Raising a child can be expensive, from education, food, and clothing to surprise costs such as hidden expenses and paying for daycare. There is also social pressure to have children — especially on women — but ultimately, the choice is yours.

We dive into the two sides of the big choice: choosing to have children vs choosing not to. Joining us on the Half-Banked Podcast is Barry Choi, father and financial expert. He talks about the realities of being a parent and the financial impact of having children. Our second guest is Therese Shechter, filmmaker and producer of a documentary about the taboo of choosing to be child-free. She shares how finances can impact this big decision and what it means to choose not to have children in today’s world.

From the child tax credit to dealing with the cost of daycare, listen to Barry and Therese to better understand the financial aspect of having children.

Three reasons to listen to this episode

1. Discover how much it costs to raise a child — necessities, luxuries, and all.
2. Find out what it means to be financially ready to have a family.
3. Understand how financial planning and goals can impact your decision to have children.

Resources

• Check out Money.ca for more answers to your personal finance questions.
• Barry Choi's personal finance site MoneyWeHave.com 
• My So-Called Selfish Life documentary by Therese Shechter

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Transcript

Barry Choi: I didn't have a lot of stuff growing up, but what I did have is parents that loved me in a safe home that I could go to and I never felt any fear. Those two things alone, well, pretty much get most kids where they need to be at if you think about it.

All these extra things are extra. Yeah, I admit I had a Nintendo when I was a kid. It was fantastic. But I will just say that, you know, you have these things and they’re really nice, but you think about how hard our parents work to provide those things for us. And if we can do the same for our children, what more can you ask for, right?

Bethan Moorcraft: I'm Bethan Moorcraft. 

Cadeem Lalor: And I'm Cadeem Lalor. 

Bethan Moorcraft: And this is the Half Banked podcast brought to you by money.ca.

Cadeem Lalor: Throughout this series, we've touched on some of life's major milestones.

Bethan Moorcraft: Like going to college or trying to buy your first home.

Cadeem Lalor: However, we haven't touched on what might be one of the biggest changes in your life if you decide to pursue it, with having kids.

Bethan Moorcraft: According to RBC, the average cost of raising a child can add up to $10,000 to $15,000 dollars a year for 18 years. For those who want to be parents, that price tag might force them to wait longer until they turn the office into a nursery.

Cadeem Lalor: For those who are on the fence about parenthood or firmly not interested, the cost, it's just another reason to deter them.

Bethan Moorcraft: According to a January Cardas poll, the desire to save more money is one of the top five reasons for women under 30 not wanting a child in the next two years. 

Cadeem Lalor: The desire to focus on their careers was another. 

Bethan Moorcraft: So, how do you decide if parenthood is right for you? What makes parenthood so expensive? And what costs are people not thinking about when they take the plunge?

Cadeem Lalor: In this episode, we'll be talking to a personal finance and budgeting expert who can break down the cost of children from his experience as an analyst and as a parent.

Bethan Moorcraft: We'll also talk to a documentary filmmaker who's known since high school that she didn't want to be a mother. 

Cadeem Lalor:  We'll look at the ledgers of both sides in order to paint a picture of the different financial expectations and goals of will-be parents and child-free adults. We'll dive right in with money expert, Barry Choi. 

Bethan Moorcraft: So now we have Barry Choi, money expert at www.moneywehave.com, and also a parent to a six-year-old daughter. Barry, welcome. 

Barry Choi: Thanks for having me.

Bethan Moorcraft: It's great to have you on the show. So, Barry, we've already shared the RBC stat that raising a child can cost up to $15,000 a year covering everything from food to clothing. I can see you laughing in the camera. So what are your thoughts in terms of, you know, the average cost of raising children? 

Barry Choi: I think average is the right word, because I know a lot of people who spend a lot more on their children. And there's quite a few people who can raise children for a lot, lot less. I would say I'm about an average right now. But I have some certain expenses that I spent on my daughter which I wouldn't say are normal, more of a luxury, if you want to put it that way. But I’m in a fortunate position that we can give her that, yeah.

Bethan Moorcraft: That's great. What are some costs of raising children that might surprise people who haven't yet sort of gone down that road?

Barry Choi: You know, I would say the biggest thing for parents or people who don't have kids, rather, is the cost of daycare. You know it's expensive, but you don't realize how expensive it is until you're actually paying it, right?

Like, okay, you know, it's like, you know, $1,500 to $2,000. In Toronto, it's like, oh, yeah, yeah, it's just there. But when you actually see it coming out of your bank account, it's a lot larger than it seems. 

And I know people listening will be like, hey, you know what, there's $10-a-day daycare. You know what, that actually doesn't exist for everyone. When you actually start looking into the details, realize it's much more complicated. Not every spot is available. And even on top of that, once daycare ends, you think you're gonna get that $2,000 back, no, other expenses come up. 

One other thing else I'll talk about really quickly, because we'll talk about it more later, is the fact that school these days: you got to pay for everything. I don't know when you guys were kids, if you remember, I hadn’t paid for anything — field trips, everything, school supplies. It was all included, you know.

You didn't pay anything, but now, every single week, it's like, hey, donation day or fundraiser day, hey, you got to pay for the school bus to go on roadtrips, you got to pay for supplies. It's actually ridiculous how many things you got to pay for as parents.

Cadeem Lalor: And I guess I was wondering along with, so you're paying more for schooling, especially. And I'm guessing you've probably heard about the changes to the Canada child benefit, kind of a new maximum. I guess I'm wondering what you think of that, and kind of like some of the pros and cons of that program?

Barry Choi: You know, the Canada child benefit, I think it's great for what it is, it was redesigned, you know, I feel like it was like 10 years ago or 6 years ago, whenever it was, to really help lower-income families or families that don't have high incomes.

So to me, it makes a lot of sense for them to really focus on those kids who need additional help. But at the same time though, it's not like this money is going to go super far. Don't worry and don't get me wrong. It'll definitely help, but there's a lot of people these days, whether they're low income or not, they're struggling, you know, with cost of inflation, mortgage prices going up.

So you know, you could have a high income and still be struggling to raise your kids. So yeah, these extra benefits are good, but it doesn't apply to everyone, and that's complicated.

Bethan Moorcraft: I wanted to just touch back on the cost of childcare. I've heard from multiple kind of young parents that is the one shocker, you know, and it's not something you can just say, ‘oh well, we won't bother with that,’ you know, a lot of people have to go back to work, parents might not live nearby or might not be able or willing to help, and so you do have to do it. Do you see a trend of that cost increasing, because more people need to use the service? 

Barry Choi: It definitely can increase depending on where you live, you know, I've got a lot of friends that live in downtown Toronto, and they say that, you know, their childcare costs are easily 50% more. And then you think about rural communities where there might not be as many, you know, nannies or daycare spots.

If the nannies know there's a lack of supply and a huge demand, they're going to charge huge amounts for it. So yeah, you gotta budget for it, you know.

I'm speaking just from having a single child, when, you know, you've got two kids, and you're paying $4000 to $6,000 a month in child care, you're wondering if you should even bother going back to work, because unless you're making significantly more, you're probably better off staying at home and spending those years with your kids. And admittedly, that's a tough decision for a lot of people, because one parent is going to see their career suffer as a result  and they're giving up more than just their income.

Bethan Moorcraft: Yes, definitely very interesting. I was one of three, and we were all very close in age. So we were rugrats running around when we had childcare, but yes, I think it was definitely a financial burden that, you know, we've discussed as a family, and something that I'll think about moving forwards too. 

Cadeem Lalor: Oh, for sure. And then we're also wondering, too, because there has been research on how more people basically kind of lean on their parents a bit more financially than, say, 20 years ago, people, you know, potentially staying at home longer due to the issue of home house prices.

So with the case of people who might still be kind of relying on their parents a bit for money, like, are they basically, is there a way to be kind of still financially able to be parents, if you're in a situation where you still need help from your parents?

Barry Choi: You know, I think it's, it's tricky, because you know, raising a child is more than just about finances. The reality is quite often children only need a safe home, roof over their head, and food, right? So you don't need to be rich to have kids.

But obviously, it's definitely difficult. You know, you can't exactly plan a pregnancy all the time. Sometimes life happens, right? So yeah, if you're relying on your parents, and then obviously, you have a child the same time, it can be a very difficult situation. But that's where a lot of families start to make those tough decisions, you know, having a multi-generation household, or figure out if that means working multiple jobs, having a side hustle.

So you know, when my parents moved to Canada, it was my brother and I at a young age, you know, my mom worked multiple jobs, brought in some extra income, because she just knew that it would help us in the long run.

Cadeem Lalor: And I guess I'm wondering, as well, you had mentioned some luxuries that you're able to provide for your daughter, are you comfortable discussing what any of those are? 

Barry Choi: Oh, we should definitely talk about to just show how ridiculous things can get. So you know, there's, let's talk about some luxuries first, or some basic ones that a lot of people can relate to, you know, when my daughter was born, her brother, before she was born, my wife had demanded that we get the fancy stroller, you know, I don't even remember how much it cost. But to me at the time, it seemed like an insane amount of money.

It's a popular brand. I'm not gonna talk about it, but anyone who's got a baby wants the stroller, they have all these attachments. It's a bit nuts. Admittedly, it was a very nice stroller, but at the same time, sometimes you wonder if like, is that what my daughter really needed, or more important I would say, would have been better for us to buy it secondhand because obviously kids will grow out of the stroller eventually. 

You can save easily 50% If you bought these on the used market, it probably would have been a better investment, because, unlike car seats, baby strollers you can buy second hand and there's not really any safety concerns.

But one luxury I will talk about that is totally unnecessary, but something that we enjoy to do, and again, just because we have a single child, it makes things a little bit easier, but we travel often. You know, we travel once or twice a year. Before my daughter was two, she had been on more airplanes than I had until I was like 16 or 17.

These are just some of the luxuries I'm talking about that are totally unnecessary. So yeah, obviously if I cut back some of those expenses, then yeah, I could put more money in our pockets.

Bethan Moorcraft: I expect that's only going to, well, could potentially get worse as your daughter grows older. Because I'm thinking today and looking at a comparison between you know, parents maybe with teenagers today versus parents with teenagers 20 or 30 years ago, there weren't iPhones and you know, the latest, amazing laptop and whatever's trending on social media is kind of like cool to have. So like, how are you prepared mentally and financially for those types of things that will come?

Barry Choi: I am not prepared whatsoever for those situations, because I'll tell you this, you know, again, being in a fortunate situation, when I want something, I just buy it. I mean, that's the nice thing about being an adult, who's you know, good control of their finances when you see something shiny and new that you want you just go out and buy.

You don't need to ask for permission, right? I have no doubt that my daughter will ask for these things. And I'll kind of figure it out when I want to get there. But you know, I'm hoping I'll pass on some tips in the sense that, you know, maybe delayed gratification, you know, if you really want that item, maybe you just gotta save up for it and use your own money.

But the joke is now that like, you know, whenever she goes to my parents' place or grandparents' place, my mom likes to give her like $2 and my dad likes to give her $2. Now she's figured that out, she's like, one word and next time, we're going to do grandparents, because she just wants to get money, right?

So as much as I like to think I'm smarter than her, I feel like she's gonna outsmart me later, especially when there's more technology that I'll have no clue about.

Bethan Moorcraft: Sounds like a savvy six-year-old already. 

Barry Choi: That would be the case. 

Cadeem Lalor: We touched on social media just now, because I'm wondering, are there any other big difference you see, in terms of raising some child now versus say, 20 years ago?

Barry Choi: You know, social media is the biggest thing, we got to talk about that, you know, Instagram, you always see friends or social media journal, you always see what they're posting, what they're doing, it's on-demand right away, and you can't help but feel, like, should I be doing that? Should I be doing that with my kid? Should I be taking them to that new restaurant, to that cafe? To that vacation?

And admittedly, I'm guilty of this, too. I was just talking about how my daughter has been to Disney World twice, and unfortunately, she tells her friends these things. And then, like, her friends are asking their parents, can we go to Disney World, right? And it is a huge problem. Fortunately, most of her close friends’ parents know, I mean, I tell them like, ‘listen, it's work most of the time and I'm not even paying for these things.’

But it's a very complicated situation. But you know, overall, it's actually fascinating how things have changed significantly, in the last 20 years, even the last 10 years, and you know, this conversation we're having now, by the time my daughter's 10, it might not even be relevant. It's very interesting. 

Cadeem Lalor: And I’m also wondering, sort of, we're looking at, you know, seeing the age of first-time mothers kind of increase. So 2012, 2016, we see it jumped to a national average of just over 29, B.C. leading the way with 31.

So are there different financial considerations that you can think of for someone who might be becoming a parent, possibly, you know, the 30s, like more common now or say, possibly, you know, early 20s instead? 

Barry Choi: Oh, if we're strictly talking about an age thing, I think there's one thing that's definitely worth talking about, that a lot of people don't think about, you know, obviously, the older you get, the harder it is to have children.

My wife and I had decided that we were going to have children in our late 20s, early 30s, right, so kind of about that demographic. You know, that was our idea, but honestly, it took much longer to get pregnant than we thought it would take, and we actually needed help with IVF. So with that, and the whole process was about a six or seven-year process, my wife had had her child around 35, 36-ish as much.

So the amount we spent was close to $20,000 in IVF treatments. So, people who think that they'll just be able to get pregnant right away, they may not realize that there's a lot of additional costs that may come up, and that's only if you're successful, you know, we got lucky, in a sense, we were successful pretty quickly.

But we know many families who weren't successful and spent, you know, three, four more times than we did. So there are always additional costs to be aware of. So, you know, it's not a linear path.

Bethan Moorcraft: So when couples decide to have a child, or that they want to go down that route, that's just the beginning. That decision, we're going to do it. And as you said, sometimes it can be unplanned, and therefore, you know, you don't have you skip that step. How important is it then to kind of sit down together and look at a budget, create a financial plan, a budget where you can kind of roll with that as you're going through this amazing life adventure?

Barry Choi: That's a great question, especially when you consider what's been going hot gone in Canada over the last year, you know, when my wife and I decided to start trying, we kind of created a budget, like, you know, those fake budgets, you know, one great piece of advice, my mom gave me back in the day, this is like, you know, 15, 20, I don't remember how many years ago was like, you know.

In an ideal world if you can live on one income between you and your partner, you won't have any issues, because that way, obviously, if one person gets laid off health issues or whatever, you can survive, and you know, you think about it, same thing applies to parental leave and maternity leave. If you can get away with just one income, then you're great.

So that's what we did. We budgeted everything out, we saw, we said, we actually kind of did a dry run before our child was born, like, let's see if we can do three months on this one budget to see if we can survive without any real issues. 

And we didn't have any problems with that, but you know, this was six years ago. You know, you think, I don't know the exact numbers, but I'm pretty sure housing prices have gone up probably about 50% since then, which is absolutely bonkers. Inflation is higher, salaries have not increased as much. So trying to do that now would be very complicated.

So a lot of families or a lot of parents-to-be need to make tough decisions early, and maybe rethink what their life is going to look like. You know, I'm of a certain vintage where a lot of my peers expect that you're going to have that kid, you're going to move out to the suburbs, you're gonna have all that support.

You know, we talked about the parents helping, but you know, sometimes your parents have health issues and they can't help, then you got to get additional support. Now commuting from the suburbs — that's an additional cost. So there's no, no set path anymore. So what you may think will work out perfectly won't always be the case. 

Bethan Moorcraft: That's an interesting idea of kind of figuring out if you can live on one income, would you mind kind of breaking it down a bit more in terms of some short-term goals that couples should work towards, and then perhaps some longer-term planning for as their children grow up, want to go to university, etc.

Barry Choi: You know, I would say right at the beginning that what you want to do more than anything else is to stay afloat. You just want to be able to pay your bills, not worry too much about if, hey, if an emergency happens, what am I going to have to sacrifice? Am I going to have to sacrifice electricity, the type of foods we eat, just because we got to pay something else?

That's why having an emergency fund is so important, but of course, thinking about the long term, setting up things for your child's education, such as a Registered Education Savings Plan is ideal, since the government will give you a match.

But at the same time, you know, we're talking about how the cost of housing has gone up so much, you know, I know a lot of families that have a dual income situation, they get a decent amount of salary, but in the end, it's still hard to, you know, max out the RESPs, the TFSA, the RRSP, because there's just so much money going out and not enough money coming in, you kind of have to prioritize.

And sometimes I tell people that as much as your intentions are really good to that, you know, help your kids in the future, you really need to think about yourself first. Because what good are you going to do if you're going to rely on your kids 20 or 30 years from now for income because you sacrificed everything for them.

So it's always a very tricky situation. And I think most, exercise how you need to focus on yourself first. If you've got debt, or you've got enough savings, you got to focus on yourself and not think about RESPs or other things.

Cadeem Lalor: Do you view, as a bit of maybe a misconception that when you have kids, especially young ones, that you sort of have to give up travelling? Like, you know, with say, average income and so forth? can it still be doable, to be able to enjoy some of the things you did, you know, prior to having a kid? 

Barry Choi: You know, I think you could definitely still travel, you just gotta be smarter and travel is something that's completely different, that has also changed significantly since the pandemic, you know, airlines have never been fuller and airfare prices have never been higher.

But at the same time, Canadians, younger Canadians, all kinds of Canadians in general are saying they're spending a lot less on travel. And if you kind of read between the lines there, it basically implies that people with money are still travelling, but people who are kind of a little bit more tight on the budget are cutting back. So you can still travel, you just got to be smart about where you travel. 

You know, when I was a kid, I never travelled every single year. It's a luxury I enjoy right now because I'm able to again because of work and my daughter doesn't realize that. But you know, if you've got to save up for a few extra years, so you can travel once every five years, that's not a bad thing, you know.

Maybe you're taking more day trips or you know, driving, road trips, instead of flying. Maybe that makes more sense, or taking advantage of where you have families or friends who are willing to host you can also be very beneficial.

 Moorcraft: One thing I wanted to return to,earlier you were talking about luxuries and you mentioned the stroller. Your wife wanted the best one, you said that perhaps you should have bought it secondhand because you don't need them for that long and, you know, you can move in someone else's hands. Can you share any other kind of money-saving hacks that you've learned through your parenting experience or any other ways that young couples can kind of cut back on costs? 

Barry Choi: You know, buying secondhand just about everything for kids, unless it's something safety related, is one of the best ways to go because honestly, kids grew up so fast and they get so many gifts that parents literally cannot go through them quick enough. A lot of people will be looking to sell these things.

Anything you can think about for a baby can be bought online. Facebook Marketplace, Kijiji, there are so many great ways where you can save. I would argue it’s kind of crazy in the sense that I can't believe how much research we have to put in as adults or as parents to figure out where you can save money, what options are available, because there are tons and tons of options out there.

Cadeem Lalor: Thank you because I think I personally relate. My mum has definitely told me that she used to give me very expensive shoes and clothes when I was like six, seven, I think, by the time I hit ten, she's just seeing how fast I shed through them and then she's like, no. I look back, she's like, if I do that again, I'm not doing that with my little sister now who's 16 years younger. She's definitely taken a different approach.

So for some nice things, not all secondhand or anything, but still buying some nice things but definitely not splurging on the things that she knows she'll probably outgrow in say a few months.

Barry Choi: It is bonkers how fast the kids grow, you know, last year, a year before, she literally went through like three pairs of shoes and boots and three jackets. You know, here's one fun tip which we actually learned from that specific experience because we had to buy her jacket midseason, everything was on sale, so everyone was clearing everything out, right?

So we're like, oh, well, we're gonna have to buy a new jacket next year. Why don't we just buy the jacket now, it's 50% off, she'll grow into it. So now we've learned like, oh, actually buy the next year, a year before when it's on sale. So you know, winter clothes starts going on sale in like January, right? It's absolutely nuts, so you just kind of plan a little bit more. 

I'll say this as a parent, it's actually surprising what you can spend money on for your kids, like anything is available these days, like, it’s absolutely nuts. So, one good example that everyone can relate to is indoor playgrounds. So you know, as a kid, there was no such thing as an indoor playground. Now, it's like everyone's obsessed with it.

You know, I think it’s cool, I dropped my daughter off, she goes nuts for two hours, I can sit down, just play on my phone, you know what I mean? There's bike camp, literally, as a child, like I'm sure the two of you also, you learn to ride a bike on your own, you fall many, many times, you eventually figure it out. Now, you can literally pay someone to teach your kid how to ride a bike.

And it sounds ridiculous, but you know, the first day I dropped her off, I can pick her up at the end of the day, she already knew how to ride a two-wheeler and I was like, this is fantastic. I don't have to deal with the drama, right?

If you have the money and your life can be a lot easier, or even like learning to swim, it's a basic skill that a lot of parents obviously want their kids to learn for obvious reasons, but it can be tough, especially the city-run programs, because they need to cater to everyone. So it's accessible, and inexpensive, but you can't push them too hard.

But if you're willing to pay for private lessons, such as private groups, private organizations, you pay more, but your kids will learn how to swim a lot faster anyways, what I'm getting at is, if you've got money to spend, your kids can learn just about anything these days. And unfortunately, not every parent will have that money to spend. 

Cadeem Lalor: On that topic as well. So you know, being financially ready for a parent, do you think that there's a way to sort of, know when you're ready for that? Or are you truly ever, like completely financially ready?

Barry Choi: You know, I wouldn't say it's you're ever financially ready, that's, obviously you want to be in a space where you can provide your kids the life you want to give them. But you know, it goes back to what we were saying earlier, you know, what you talked about how you're raised with your mother, and how, you know, even myself as a child, as a child of immigrant, I didn't have a lot of stuff growing up.

But what I did have is parents that loved me, in a safe home that I could go to that I never felt any fear. And that, those two things alone will pretty much get most kids where they need to be at if you think about it, all these extra things are extra. Yeah, I admit I had a Nintendo when I was a kid, it was fantastic.

Cadeem Lalor: Oh, me too, N64, first console, l remember that.

Barry Choi: Actually, showing my age here, okay. But we'll just say that you know, you have these things, and they're really nice. But you think about how hard our parents worked to provide those things for us. And if we can do the same for our children, what more can you ask for, right? 

Cadeem Lalor: Absolutely.

Bethan Moorcraft: Just building on that. Do you have, you know, part of being financially ready, maybe, to have a child is sort of being able to coach them as they grow older, too. And like, you know, as you said, you've been able to take your daughter travelling, and you're able to send her to camp, etc. But do you feel the pressure of bringing her up as a financially responsible person as well? And kind of do you have any tips on parents trying to navigate that with their children?

Barry Choi: You know, I do think there's a huge burden actually, for parents to raise their kids on so many different levels. And at the same time, things are changing so often, you never know what's going to happen. You know, I tried to explain to my, my parents, so my daughter's grandparents, what's relevant these days, how things work, and my dad just can't even understand the concept.

So part of it is not just making sure your kids are financially savvy, but understanding changing technology, changing careers, right, and how things work. You know, when I was in high school, no one was pushing any kids or high school kids towards the trades. And now the trades are in the most demand careers out there, right. Like you said, it's actually nuts.

Or even when I was, you know, finishing high school, coding and computer programming wasn't a big thing, now everyone's exposed at a relatively young age. But in general, yeah, if you want to teach your kids some basic financial steps that get them on the right path, because they're not going to be taught that stuff in school. 

You know, we talked about financial literacy, I'm a money expert, what you guys do is basically financial literacy at the same time. You think about your peers, how many people don't know how to file their taxes? How many people don't understand the basics of tax brackets, you know, they think if they work overtime, they're gonna get taxed more, so it's not worth their trouble. But that's just not the way it works.

So yeah, there's a huge burden on parents to make sure their kids are financially savvy, or at least have some basic understanding, because that's what my parents taught me. They're like, they said, no, they can't teach me everything, but they can show me the basics and then it's up to me to learn more.

Cadeem Lalor: Well, thank you so much. I think we found some interesting tips here. You know how to get a PS you know, another game system free. I think this will be very valuable for our listeners. So thanks a lot for your time, Barry. 

Barry Choi: No problem, anytime.

Cadeem Lalor: So after discussing the costs, parallels of parenthood, what sticks? In your mind first, Bethan?

Bethan Moorcraft: I thought it was interesting what Barry was saying about, you know, he enjoys spending his money on his child, as he said, he's lucky to have the discretionary income to be able to kind of splurge on some luxuries for his daughter, and she's a very lucky young lady.

But, you know, some families, a lot of families, especially, if you're having a child really young, and you haven't had time to kind of save a bit of a money pot there, might not have that discretionary income to spend on luxuries. And I think that that's okay.

You know, we were talking before this podcast about how we grew up, and you know, what we spent money on, etc. And in my free time, I would just be outside kicking a ball around with my neighbors all day, every day.

Cadeem Lalor: I wanted to expand on that too, because I just have noticed that there is a bit of a connection between having the discretionary income sometimes, and then being able to actually spend time with your children.

So if you're working, possibly, you know, one job instead of two, that frees up more time for you to actually get to spend time with your kids, which leads to, it can lead to kind of, you know, better experiences with them, it can lead to, say, maybe a more enriching, you know, experience with your kids as you grow up.

Because I was listening to another podcast where they mentioned, you know, children of immigrants, as Barry had mentioned as well, and that their parents were just working so hard when they were younger, trying to provide that they didn't actually spend much time with them at that stage.

And then now that they're in a position where they have more discretionary income, they're able to actually make, carve that time out, it gives them the freedom to do that.

Bethan Moorcraft: It also reminds me of something that Barry said about the cost of childcare, some parents having to make a choice about whether they go back to work, or they say, you know, I'm just going to stay at home and take care of the kids whilst they're young before they go to school because we can't afford that $2,000, $4,000, $6,000, however many kids who have, fee monthly which is a staggering amount of money when you compare it to the rent you're paying as a mid 25-year-old in Toronto, for example.

Cadeem Lalor: No, you weren't exaggerating when you said it is just another rent. So me thinking about that, like having to basically possibly sacrifice just a career in that sense for a few years at a time, at least is staggering. And I know Barry mentioned what he did with his family in this case was actually working off a single income.

And you know, he did that pre-COVID, he made sure to mention because since then we've seen prices for just everyday things rise, that's groceries, gas, mortgages, so it's, you know, tough to see if you could possibly pull that off. Now I'm wondering how many people, especially if they live in a expensive hub, like, you know, Greater Toronto Area of Vancouver, if they'd be able to pull off just having a single income.

Bethan Moorcraft: That also leads nicely into our next discussion with Therese Shechter, because we're going to be talking about young couples, young people choosing not to have children, or waiting longer until they decide to have children. And one of the reasons for that choice is career.

And the idea of giving up your career to be able to afford childcare or because you can't afford childcare, so you've got to stay at home, to some people who are at the start of a very exciting working life, they're trying new skills, they're earning money for the first time, able to afford perhaps even to buy a house, the idea of then stopping that and giving that up is probably quite scary for some people. So I can see why that factors into some people's decision.

Cadeem Lalor: Absolutely. And it is something that will definitely affect women more. So that's a very, it can be a very tough choice for someone who's kind of just gained, you know, a bigger level of independence and then possibly having to kind of give that up for a family. And now a quick message from money.ca. 

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Cadeem Lalor: And now we have Therese Shechter, a filmmaker, public speaker, and the founder of the production company, Trixie Films. Her latest project, My So-Called Selfish Life, is a documentary that explores the taboo about choosing not to become a mother. Thank you for joining us, Therese.

Therese Shechter: Thank you for inviting me.

Cadeem Lalor: So your film definitely delves into the issue of, you know, more young Canadians choosing to go child-free, either for longer or permanently. And can you take us through basically how there are some economic and financial factors that might play a role in the narrative of your film and perhaps in your personal decision?

Therese Shechter: I think that financial factors are one part of the equation when people think about whether they want to become parents or not, certainly, it's very expensive to raise children in any economy. In my film, actually, one of the women in the film talks about how she and her partner waited 20 years to decide to have children because it was only then that they felt financially secure enough to have a baby and raise a child the way they wanted to.

This is a product of a lot of fairly serious decision-making. But there are a lot of other factors aside from financial, some people are concerned about things like climate change, some people can't find the right partner, and sometimes people just don't want children. 

Bethan Moorcraft: So as I understand it, there's actually a bit of a difference in the terminology between childless and child-free? So, Therese, can you please explain that to us in the audience, so that, you know, we understand? 

Therese Shechter: Yeah, absolutely. The term child-free is somebody who does not want to have kids and does not have kids. It's a specific decision. Someone who is childless does want kids, but for a variety of reasons, doesn't have them. This could be for medical issues, it could be because they haven't found a partner.

It could be for many reasons. And it's important to make that distinction because they're two distinct groups with two distinct desires. However, child-free and childless people do come under the same kind of scrutiny and criticism for not following the prescribed path of parenthood. 

There is a technical term called temporarily childless, which refers to people who plan to have children at some point, but have not yet. I do hear the term child-free lifestyle a lot, and I don't really like it. 

And there is a correlation between economic and reproductive freedom and having fewer kids, you know, like older boomers, for example, grew up in a time where women didn't have much financial freedom at all, they couldn't get bank accounts, and they couldn't get credit cards, and their husbands had to sign for them. So when women have economic freedom, when they have reproductive freedom, they can make better decisions for themselves.

It's actually a profound privilege, like, to have the tools to control my reproduction, to have the freedom to control my reproduction. So it's much, much more than a lifestyle. Lifestyle seems pretty frivolous for something that's such a profound decision about whether to bring a human into the world or not, and everything that goes with that.

Cadeem Lalor: No, that is a very good point, thank you. And I was also wondering, so you know, as part of the documentary, My So-Called Selfish Life, you've interviewed people who are in that position themselves who know they want to be child-free because I was wondering, did any of them mention any specific financial goals or worries that they had that affected their decisions, such as trying to, you know, pay off student debt first, buy a house, or anything like that?

Therese Shechter: Yeah, I mean, student debt came up a lot, actually. And some people, not necessarily people in the film, but there were many people I spoke to. I should say that before I started making the film, I did a survey because I only knew my own story, and I really wanted to learn the stories of other people.

And I put one post on Facebook back in 2016 with a survey saying, tell me about your life without children, and I got 1,900 responses in the first week. So that freaked me out a little bit, but I also thought, hmm, this is probably going to be a good film that people might be interested in. 

A lot of the things that people were saying were tied to finances in certain ways. One was, I have so much student debt, I don't know how I could ever raise a child because I have so much debt to clear myself.

But another aspect was: I'm an artist. I live on a very small income and I want to continue doing my art, and if I have a child, I will have to stop being an artist, because I will have to make enough money to support my family. I, myself, would not be able to make enough money to properly raise a child.

Now a lot, a lot of people have children and they're not making a lot of money, and they get by, but they want children and they're gonna make it work. And they figure it out like my own parents did. So it really depends on the person. But I do think that there is an awareness of what it would take financially to give a child a decent life, and not wanting to bring a child into the world that wouldn't, in their opinion, be cared for properly.

Bethan Moorcraft: It's interesting. Of course, there are a lot of reasons and a lot of things that go into this decision. Therese, you said that you knew you didn't want to have a child since you were a teenager. At that time, were finances at all part of that decision, or was it a whole lot of other things?

Therese Shechter: You could ask me why I didn't become a doctor. You could ask me why I didn't move to Spain. It would be the same reason. I just didn't want to. I will say though that I always assumed I would have children because that's the world we live in, we're raised to assume that that's our job, to have children.

So I went through my 20s and 30s, assuming I would have children, and in terms of my finances, I did put a lot away for retirement. I wanted to be financially independent. There were a lot of things that I felt like I should do and then one day, I realized, oh, wait, I don't actually have to have children if I don't want to, but I'm still very glad at the financial planning that I did in the meantime, because it's good for everybody, whether you have children or not.

Cadeem Lalor: And I was wondering, earlier, you did mention kind of looking at retirement planning. So I was wondering if, with your experience, have you been able to basically save up for other, you know, big financial goals earlier? 

Therese Shechter: I was always really conscious about putting money aside for retirement, I think that in my very first jobs, I maxed out the amount of money that I could put towards retirement pretty consistently, I just wanted to have some control over my life and my future, and you never know what will happen and what life will bring you.

While I had, you know, really well-paying jobs, I just made sure to put as much money towards retirement as possible. The other thing when people don't have children, this is often a threat, it's kind of used against us, which is who will take care of you when you get old. It's a real common thing that people say, and I always feel like we really should not be planning to give birth to people just so they can take care of us when we're old, which is sort of the implication of that statement.

So instead of birthing my elder care, I thought I should just have this money. So I think all of us really should be thinking of that and thinking about how we'd like to live our, let's say senior years. And I do think setting aside money for retirement is really fundamental to that. 

Cadeem Lalor: And I was wondering as well, which is thinking about young couples that are considering that child-free lifestyle. From your own experience, do you believe there are any specific financial considerations or questions that they need to think about if that's what they want to pursue, anything that's come up with your own experience?

Therese Shechter: One thing that I think is really important for people without children, and that's, you know, by choice or by circumstance, is to make out a will, because you don't have obvious heirs. Think about where you want your assets to go. Is it to other family members? Is it to friends? Is it to charity?

I think it's a really wonderful exercise to sort of think through that stuff and think about how you're best able to share your own wealth however you define that with others. That's something my husband and I did and we really thought about it for a long time.

Which family members? Which friends? Which charities? Which other organizations we wanted to support, because again, it's not clear cut, you don't really want to die without those kinds of affairs settled, because it leaves a big mess for the people who have to take care of it after you're gone. I just can't stress this enough to really think about this.

Bethan Moorcraft: Your documentary is called My So-Called Selfish Life. Does that stem from people thinking your economic freedom is selfish? You not spending money on children and spending money on yourself instead is to some people deemed selfish. Is that kind of where this is coming from?

Therese Shechter: I think in part, it's coming from that. I think that people imagine I'm on my golden yacht, rolling around in $100 bills on a, you know, diamond bed or something. I think there is a sort of performative aspect of some people who don't have kids who post a lot on Instagram about their wine-tasting tours of southern France and how great their lives are because they don't have kids and they have lots of money.

So the idea of calling somebody without kids selfish, is a little bit suspect, but I also think that people with children are called selfish for a variety of things. I think having children just so someone will take care of you when you get old is supremely selfish, if I'm being honest. So the word selfish is used whenever somebody doesn't approve of what you're doing.

Cadeem Lalor: Thank you. I think that's a very good point, thank you for adding that, I appreciate that. And so we want to really want to appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule. You know, good luck with the film. So thank you so much for your time, Therese.

Therese Shechter: Thank you very much for having me. It was a pleasure.

Bethan Moorcraft: Alright, so that was interesting. Cadeem, what did you take away from that?

Cadeem Lalor: I guess there was a lot because this issue, you know, touches on a lot of kind of sociological aspects, too. But, you know, focusing on the finance side, I guess it was, for me, brought me back to episode two where we kind of talked about wills for young people like how that's very important, especially if you don't have kids, because you know, there isn't going to be kind of any assumption that your kids will either get it or split it between themselves or whatever it is.

There is just kind of like even more of a headache when it comes to figuring that out if you don't have that set before you go. And I guess that you can make that decision as a young person and then it's even more important to actually get on a will early, even if it's something you think you don't need because you're not older.

Bethan Moorcraft: Another thing that she said that kind of stuck with me a bit was the example she gave about the artist. I thought that was really interesting. Because, you know, you might have a calling in life, whether it's artist, it doesn't even need to be artist.

It might even be, you know, a professional job that you really want to put all of your time and effort into, and you do have to make compromises when you have children and perhaps, I don't know how stable her income was, I don't want to presume anything there, but it is a choice that you have to kind of make, and you have to weigh that up.

Cadeem Lalor: Because it may be your salary work for her. But she's just thinking, you know, if she has a kid, though, she has to make more money, has to be more stable. It's not really just about you in that sense and basically, in that case, you actually to kind of either give up a dream or maybe put it like on the backburner, it has to become a side thing she works on, she can no longer be her main thing.

Bethan Moorcraft: I think part of that is that people, and every parent, I imagine wants to do this, give their child the best possible life. But what does that mean? There are so many different kinds of ways to factor all of this in. And it is interesting.

Cadeem Lalor: Yeah. And I think especially if you're young and independent, kids, like it can just be tough. I think it's one of those things. It's a, there is the commitment piece and just a piece of having someone to help you out. But yeah, just the financial piece of like raising one child on one income. And again, especially if you had a job that is talking about stability piece, if you have a job that is not kind of a permanent full-time one with full benefits and even then that can still be tough once the kid gets past a certain age, to be able to like manage working, you know, full time for yourself and then also caring for job.

Bethan Moorcraft: Tricky. Lots to think about.

Cadeem Lalor: Absolutely.

Bethan Moorcraft: All right, that's a wrap on Season One of Half Banked.

Cadeem Lalor: Thank you to all the guests who shared their insights with us.

Bethan Moorcraft: Yeah, it's been so much fun. I've just personally really enjoyed learning about all of these topics and I'm sure that our listeners have had some great takeaways as well. So, amazing guests. Thanks, everybody.

Cadeem Lalor: What was your favorite episode?

Bethan Moorcraft: I'd have to say I enjoyed, I enjoyed the tiny home van living one. I know that's a popular episode, but it was a fun conversation. How about you?

Cadeem Lalor: I will say actually, I like 10.5 a lot. I was just riffing as well. It was fun with the random questions, but if I have to pick another one, perhaps I might go with lifestyle creep. One, one stood up for me which is very interesting topic and very relevant. 

Bethan Moorcraft: Yeah, that one hit home. 

Cadeem Lalor: Yeah, exactly. Maybe a little too close to home, but I think maybe that's why it's still a little place in my heart.

Bethan Moorcraft: Yeah, it's great. Well, special thanks to our publisher, Wise Publishing, for giving us a chance to bring you this podcast.

Cadeem Lalor: We hope we've been able to help demystify and break down some of your biggest money questions.

Bethan Moorcraft: Thanks everyone for listening and if you haven't already done so, please follow us on social media at Half Banked. Like our posts, share, and spread some personal finance love. 

Cadeem Lalor: I’d like to thank our producers, Shane, James, Kevin, and our lead producer Sam.

Bethan Moorcraft: Also big shout out to Muhammed and Marie for all of their technical support for this first season. 

Cadeem Lalor: This episode was edited by Lead Podcasting. Until next time.