The Athletes Mindset
The Athletes Mindset
Episode 7: Grant Leonard
From small-school roots to leading a D1 program- Coach Grant Leonard's journey is all about growth and guidance.
Welcome to the Athletes Mindset Podcast. My name is Ben Hall, and I'm joined by today's guest, no other than Queens basketball head coach Grant Leonard. How are you doing today? I'm doing great. How are you doing? I'm doing amazing. I'm glad that you could come on my podcast, share a little bit about your story, your insight, you know, how you got into coaching and that type of thing. To start off, I want to just talk about like early childhood, that type of thing. How did you get into coaching?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I actually started off growing up and I was probably better at baseball than basketball, but just loved how fast-paced basketball was compared to uh baseball and football. And so um really decided as my senior year in high school, kind of kind of matriculated that I wanted to play basketball instead of instead of baseball in college, and and knew there was gonna be an uphill climb because my recruitment wasn't the same um as it was in the other sports, but um it's kind of what I put my mind to. And uh so I ended up starting off at a Division III school and then transferred to a junior college. Uh from junior college, ended up transferring to William Penn University, which is an NAIA school, and had a great experience there. And when I was at William Penn, I kind of realized I probably wanted to coach after this, and I wasn't sure how to get into it. And I ended up taking a teaching assistant job at Wisconsin, Milwaukee, asked if I could coach there. Bruce Pearl was a coach. Oh, nice. Um Coach Pearl actually said, like, hey, division one rules are a little bit different, and we're kind of limited with our staff members. So he's like, but there's a high school right down the road that you could probably get some experience at. So I ended up uh coaching at Shorewood High School as a volunteer. Um and then from there I got I became a Division III assistant. And you know, everyone's path is different, kind of run your own race. So I went from Division III assistant to Texas Pan American, which is now Texas Rio Gran Valley, Division I, but I was a volunteer ops guy and progressed from there, ended up an assistant at Flagler College, Division II, and then Payne College, Division II, and then Queens, Division II, and then Queens goes Division I and I became the head coach, and here we are now on your podcast.
Speaker:Yeah, nice. So would you say Bruce Pearl's like one of your mentors, or how's that relationship with him?
Speaker 1:That was the only conversation we ever had. Oh wow. Um and he was he was really kind about it. He he sat actually sat down with me. You know, I'm a graduate student, and I walked in his office like just randomly, and he, you know, he he looked through my resume and and we we had some common people that we knew. He was really nice to me. Um, but he let me know the truth, which I actually think is the nicest thing you could do. Like, hey man, that's awesome that you have a you know teaching assistant position here that your school's paid for, you're getting a salary through that, but he's like, our staff, like we're just limited with how many people we can have, and I'm already kind of full. And so that was that was really our only conversation ever, and now we're playing him this year. Um then he retired. So uh, but yeah, like that was uh it was kind that he was took time with me and and told me the truth. And I you know, I took his advice and took a high school job and and kept kept learning how to coach, I guess is what I would say.
Speaker:Got you. So like when it comes to coaching, what is like the best way you found to get your players to buy in?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think first you gotta be genuine. And and and so every every person is unique in this world. And so I you know, I can't be Bart Lundy, who was my mentor here. Bart has his own unique personality, but I gotta be I gotta be myself first. I think the players know when you're not genuine. And then you gotta build real relationships with your players, like you gotta care about them. Yeah, you know, if you want them to buy into what you're asking them to do, and you know, I think most great coaches are gonna ask them to try and play harder than the other team, um, to to make effort plays and and extra effort stuff. If you're gonna ask them to do that, I think you have to have a real relationship with them and they have to know that you really care about them. Um, I think those are the two most important things. Being genuine to yourself and having real relationships with your players, when you do those things, I I think that that they'll buy into what you're asking them to do. Yeah, who would you say is your favorite player that you've coached so far? That's a that's a difficult question. It's a great question. Um so one of the first college players, uh I was at Texas Pan American, it was my second year coaching, and we recruited this young man named Paul Stoll. And and I call him Paulie, and no one wanted Paulie, by the way. Like he had no recruitment. There was only one offer, um, and he actually sat out a year to get that offer. So, and and um Paulie was was shorter, probably 5'10, 5'11. Um, he's half white, half Mexican. He couldn't really jump over a nickel. But he ended up being a great player for us and and helped us win a ton of games. And he's he's still playing pro to this day. I think he's in his year 18 or 19 of playing pro. And he's done more with less than any player I've ever seen. He lives it, he breathes it, he takes care of his body. I think that he's definitely up there. But then at Queens, we've had so many guys that I've just actually got to see through the entire recruiting process from recruiting in high school as a sophomore or junior in high school to all the way through their graduation to watching them play pro, you know, AJ McKee and Todd Withers and Kenny die. I mean, it's a special experience when you can see a kid through the entire experience, and and very like fortunate that Queens has allowed me that opportunity to see so many guys through that process, and uh, I'm very, very fortunate.
Speaker:Yeah, so I want to touch into like when you recruit guys, when you go beyond the talent, like what gets like your energy, like what gets you to like, yeah, I I I want this guy, or you know, he's not probably the perfect fit for my program, or that type of thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, uh, you know, like everyone, we all look for guys that are talented, can dribble past, shoot, they're long, they're athletic, you know, basically they look like an NBA player. Um you can't have them all like that. Uh, but the biggest thing for me when you go watch them play is like, do they make winning plays? You know, in the fourth quarter, you know, of a high school game and the games on the line, are they shying away from the action or are they in the mix? Are they making you know, that 50-50 ball or that re that free throw box out? Like, are they making those plays? Because if they're doing that, then they're gonna do it for you. And, you know, we always joke at at Queens, like, you know, there's two types of dogs in this world. There's Petco dogs and street dogs. We want street dogs. We want guys that just like it doesn't matter. Um, it doesn't matter. Their DNA is like they're just gonna make that play. And and so really I look for those things. Like, I was at a game a couple years back, and I won't say the name player's name. I was watching him score 40 plus points in a high school game, in a high-level game, but he always was yelling at his teammates. He was never in the huddle on timeouts, he was always like separated from his coach, and I was like, that's not a Queens player. I just so we just didn't recruit him after that, and and it's part of it. Um, but want to see those types of things. Gotcha.
Speaker:Now I heard you talk about dogs. I know you're a dog dad. You get into that just a little bit.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, my first dog ever was a Rottweiler. Uh uh, she was she was the goat. I I I got a German Shepherd and a golden doodle now. Um and and dogs are awesome. There's there's loyalists, can be, they're super smart, they're genuine, they love you. Uh they just want to see you come home and give them some attention. And and but yeah, so I'm I'm a huge dog guy. My mom growing up was a cat lady. Uh I I'm not a cat cat guy as much. Um, but you know, we we we joke about the street dog thing, but it's it's like this, like, you know, when it comes down to it, and and you don't you don't know what the play is gonna be, and and everything the chips are on the line, man, it it's about making the right play and and and being the toughest dudes. And and most, you know, it's funny. Last year, you know, we did pretty well in the A Sun, but there was probably 12 possessions separating first place from sixth place. 12 possessions out of 28,000 or 28, sorry, 2,800 possessions, 70 possession game times 18 games. So like 12 possessions separated first from six. So how do you win those 12 possessions? And I think it's with having guys that have that mindset, that tough mindset that man, we're we're gonna do what it takes to win this game.
Speaker:It's great to always have those players on the team and know, like, you know, you're identifying the problem. Um, so you know, going into this year, is that like a message you've told your team? Absolutely.
Speaker 1:We've talked about 12 possessions uh a ton, and and when you when you look at it, it's 0.3%, not 3%, 0.3%. That's the difference between us winning a championship and not winning a championship, and really about 0.8, 0.9%, that's the difference between dominating the league and also going the other way and finishing maybe eighth or ninth in the league. And so the details really matter, the little things matter, and we have to be hyper-focused on not making huge changes to our team, but small changes that that make a difference that impact one or two areas uh on each side of the ball. That's what we really focused on.
Speaker:That's nice. So I want to talk about a little bit of adversity. Every coach has faced a tough test, adversity. What's been your toughest test?
Speaker 1:I got fired twice. Like, look, like look, let's just be real about it. And I think most coaches are going to go through this in their career. Um, you grow, you learn. Um, sometimes you get fired because an administration wants to go in a different direction. Um, whatever it is, I was an assistant coach at Texas Pan American, which is now Texas Rio Grande Valley, and we got let go. And I it was humbling. Uh, and it was it was really difficult to deal with. And I I I had a choice of whether I was gonna pack my stuff up and move back home to Wisconsin where my family was. And I literally had all my stuff in a Ford F-150 pickup truck, and um I was driving, and I decided I didn't want to go back to Wisconsin. I was 27 years old at the time, 28 years old, and I took a right turn on I-10 and I drove to Jacksonville, Florida. Uh, I had a friend there and and and crashed with him for a little bit and waited tables until I got my next job. Um but it's humbling getting let go. Uh, and you kind of find out who your friends are in the business, who's gonna help you. But I think more importantly, I had to self-reflect on things that I needed to work on as an individual coach. What why did this happen? What can I do better? Um, and you try and make those changes. And and I I hope that that I've done that so that I don't get fired again, but you never know.
Speaker:Yeah, that definitely comes with the job, and that's the the business side of it that you know many people you know don't understand. You know, it could have a winning record, and you know, program still wants to move in a different way. So, with that, like how is your mental going after the season? Is that something you think about, or is it just you know, if it happens, it happens?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, you can't you can't live life worried about that. I mean, and I say that like if you're gonna be successful where you're at, you got to be grounded, you got to have 10 toes in where you're at, and you really, really have to build a foundation, a daily foundation where you're at. You gotta win today. And and then after we win today, we're gonna go to bed and we're gonna lay our head down, and then we're gonna wake up and we're gonna try and win tomorrow. And um, culturally, as a program, you can't be worried about the past or the future, you gotta be worried about today. And for us, that's a that's a huge deal of staying present um and and and being grounded where you're at. And and I think that as a coach, I don't know that I was living like that until about three years into my Queen's tenure as an assistant, and Coach Lundy was unbelievable about teaching me to win today and be present and being an everyday guy.
Speaker:So, with that, how do you make sure the players have that message in their mind? You know, um, you know, you have a bad game, how do you come back for this one? Really bad loss, a game we really should have won. What's the message like to your team? Keep their mental right, and that type of thing.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think as a coach, like when things aren't going well, there's a lot of coaches that tend to get harder on their players then, and I think it's the opposite that you need to do. Psychologically, when they're down, you need to lift them up. And uh for us, and and and especially going through this transition, we've lost more than we did when we were division two. I mean, we in the the last six years of division two, we won 30 games four times. We were nationally ranked every single poll. And so, you know, for us, it was really being self-reflective. Like during the transition, division one, we're gonna lose a little bit more than we're used to, even though we far outperformed where people thought we were gonna be, um, how to stay positive. And I I tell our guys all the time we have to embrace adversity. Okay, there hasn't been a team in division one that's gone undefeated since 1976. We're going to lose a game. Okay. During a game, the other team's gonna go on a run. How does our character keep us together so we can handle that adversity? And uh embracing adversity is a big deal, and um, the character of your team will will determine how they handle that adversity. And if you don't have the right guys in the locker room, it won't go well.
Speaker:Yeah. So I want to talk about that just a little bit, just uh being division two and division one. Um how has that adjustment been?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, that was the first part is is man, like we we had to handle a few more losses, and you know, and that's part of it. Um the other thing was is that the the size was different. So positional size, I mean, typically in division two, we absolutely dominate people on the glass. I mean, we did. And and then we still are winning the glass, but it's not the same because the positional size is very different at the division one level. The first year, division one, I think there's 363 teams that year. We were 362 in height. Oh wow. So so we were the second smallest team in America, but we were top 100 in rebounding, which I think is a testament to our guys being street dogs. And and they went after that ball. They didn't care. We had a game that year in a conference tournament. We played Florida Gulf Coast, and we held them to zero offensive rebounds, um, even being the second smallest team in America. And that that's a testament to our guys and their fight and their discipline. Um, but even though we were we had some success, we had to change our positional size. Because your goal is is not to be average in your league, your goal is to win your league. And to to get through an 18-game conference season to be healthy, to be be able to perform at a high level in the conference tournament, we needed bigger guys. And that that's just a fact of it.
Speaker:Yeah, most definitely. It's a it's a big, I say it's really like a big difference. You know, you get like I feel like guards kind of relatively set stay the same, but definitely like on the you know, the bigger side, the post players are much definitely bigger, like on the you know, division one side than you know, compared to division two. So um with that, like say like you said, the 18 conference game season, what would you say is like like your philosophy throughout that? Be like is like are you still like a a motivator throughout the 18 games or like does it change you're losing this uh your conference record is negative or you're at 500? What is that coaching philosophy like?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, I still think you're trying to win the next four minutes, you know. You break up a game into four-minute immediate timeouts, and you're trying to win the next four minutes, and and really what you're trying to do is is build a roster that can that can you know go over 18 games, you can have an injury or two, and it doesn't deplete your entire roster. Um, but through the conference season, you know, anytime it's a grind, and winning on the road in conference is is really hard to do. So building a team that can that can handle road games, uh, you know, the the opposing crowd, the travel, um, shooting in a gym that they're not used to, and defense wins championships, and and rebounding is our separator. You know, defense wins championships, we're a ball pressure-oriented defensive team, um, and and then rebounding is the separator. So to win in conference play, you gotta you gotta protect the ball, you gotta, you gotta pressure the ball, you gotta, you gotta keep teams from from getting to the free throw line, and and then you gotta dominate the glass. If you're gonna if you're gonna win a league, you gotta do those things because you gotta do them on the road in the toughest situations.
Speaker:Yeah, most definitely. Speaking on the road, what are like the top three road environments you've been in?
Speaker 1:Uh well, we're gonna first we're gonna go back to our D2 days, man, and and I want to give a shout out to Winston, Salem State University, uh, HBCU, and Winston Salem, North Carolina. Man, I can tell you this, I have never been anywhere with an environment like that between the crowd, the step show, the DJ, the band. It is rocking. Get a chance to go to a game at Winston Salem University, go. It's awesome. I loved, I loved being in that environment. Um, division one, man, it was amazing going to going to Cameron Indoor and playing Duke. Uh, you know, it's just a it's a very unique experience. But I think rivaling that, um, shout out to BYU and the Marriott Center. Uh, their crowd, man, two hours before that game, their student section got let in, and there was 15,000 people watching us warm up. Uh, so shout out to that. And then in our league, North Alabama, man, they have done unbelievable jobs. Coach Pupol has done an unbelievable job building an environment. It is it is fantastic. Call it the bank, and they got after it. Uh, I respect how they've built that atmosphere there. Football team is right on top of you, you know, yelling at you, but they're respectful, but their crowd was awesome. So, so just a huge shout out to North Alabama and the A Sun.
Speaker:You have like a pregame ritual yourself uh before you go into a game?
Speaker 1:I do. I do. We typically get there about two hours before a game, and I have a game sheet. It's like a trifold sheet, and I go through and I plan out um some some coaching thoughts. I I write out their entire lineup, what their stats are, who their good free throw shooters are, who their bad free throw shooters are, um, then keys to us that I want to talk to about the team before the game. Then also I kind of go through like what I would call an adjustment card where like, okay, like I could see these three or four things happening in the game, and if they do, what are what are my adjustments gonna be? Hey, does this game like, do I want to call an early timeout to settle our guys down? Do I want to let them play through some stuff early in the game? Um, what wrote, like if there's a guy that like, hey, like I gotta get this guy in early, I want to run something for him, and I have packages on that sheet too, like, to get guys different shots, and I might highlight that I don't want to run these three plays early. Um, and so I really do that, and I I try and have that done about hour 45 to about an hour before the game, and then I usually meet with the other team's media person on the road or our media people at home uh pre-broadcast um just to say hello and and go over any thoughts. Um, and then I get ready to speak to our team about 45 minutes before the game.
Speaker:Oh, wow, nice. Uh so like are you like really big into like media and that type of thing?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean I I I think that it it's it's a great way to get your players exposure. We have a very player-first program, and what I want to do is is get their stories out there and and their message and and really talk about our guys. I think that's the most important thing. I mean, we we we coach for the players, and uh our school motto is not to be served, but to serve. And so so when I'm meeting with media, it is a very player-first, focused, you know, driven experience, and I want to get our guys' individual stories out there, and I want people to know about what they're what they're about.
Speaker:What's been like the most inspiring story um from a player you've heard?
Speaker 1:So man, we we have a player, and he I back behind me, I got I got a wall of pros, and and we've been very fortunate at Queens in my this is year 13, but in the first 12 season, we we've had 38 guys go pro. And um one of the guys back there, Todd Withers, man, he played two years with the Pistons. And as crazy as it sounds, when I recruited him in high school, uh Todd, Todd was living with his assistant coach, because his mom, who's a lovely lady K, but she she and Todd got into a lot of fights because she was bipolar and and wasn't always on her medicine. And Todd was protecting his sister sometimes, and and then Todd had some some mental health stuff too, and watching Todd go through the the experience at Queens and getting the mental health help he needed to watch him go from from that that environment where he didn't he didn't know where his next meal was coming from at times, to watching him have 10 private NBA workouts, play two years with the Pistons, play in Australia, he's in Israel now. It's special, man. Like what Todd did and for his life, uh uh he wasn't ranked in the entire state of North Carolina, more less a country. And then to to be with an NBA team, like that that's special what he did.
Speaker:No, yeah, that's very inspiring. What's like your message uh like during the season, if you know like it's a very hard season right now, and you know he has this going on? What's your like private message to him?
Speaker 1:I mean, just that we're we're gonna take care of him, you know, that we're here for him, that that anything that his family isn't providing that we we will, that we'll we'll do what we can. And that's not to replace his family, because you can't, you know, the family is such an important ecosystem, but but just know that we'll we'll support. And uh Tod Todd still calls me his big brother, and and you know, I was his I was his assistant coach. Um, but I I you know, whenever he's in town, we go, we go have food together, and and uh I'm just so happy with all of the stuff that he's accomplished in in life and and proud that he graduated college uh and he's really doing something with his life.
Speaker:Yeah, that's the thing. Is that the main goal you want for your players or graduate and um have the career next on?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, and for some of them, their career, their first career might be basketball still, right? And that's awesome. But obviously, you know, in in 12 years, we've had a lot more than 38 players, right? So all of them aren't gonna be pros. And what you can do is teach them through basketball lessons how to be successful the next step in life. And that could be basketball, but that also could be being a dad, um, which is the most important job they'll ever have. Or it could be, you know, to get in the business world. Uh it it whatever they choose to do, we just want them to be successful. And so as a program, you're just trying to teach them life missions, life lessons that will set them up for success in their next step. And uh very proud, it's not just a basketball thing. Queens, the university, does an unbelievable job preparing all of our students for the next step. And and you see the Queens grads and how successful they are, and it's it's truly unique.
Speaker:That's nice. I want to move off topic just a little bit. So I know like on court, you like to wear a lot of colorful shoes. Like, where does that come from?
Speaker 1:Uh, I think that's just part of my personality, man. I, you know, the the the players kind of get a kick out of it. Um I just kind of like to be unique with it, and and I'm a shoe guy, so I I got a shoe closet. Um and and for me, uh I just I just enjoy you know being a little bit different with that. And and uh, you know, coaching can be uh monotonous at times, you know, repetition, boring, but but you can you can always be a little unique with your your gear. And uh so yeah, that's just kind of something I picked up probably the last 10 years. I wasn't always like that. Oh wow. So what would you say would be your top three favorite shoes? Ooh. So number one, I got the uh the the Travis Scott Tiffany's, the the the Hornets colors, the the uh black and teal, um man, those those are sweet. Uh I got a pair of custom Air Force ones that that are Queen's colors, uh that um my wife did an unbelievable job getting from for my birthday one year. Um and then honestly, probably I I got a pair of of curries this year that that are super colorful uh that I'm really excited to to rock on the sideline. We are UA sponsored. Um, so I know I talked a little bit about Nike, but but we are UA'd, so I I I gotta rock the UAs too.
Speaker:Most definitely. I I wouldn't even know you have a crazy uh shoe collection like that. Is that like something like most people wouldn't know about you, or is there something else like, you know, that's common to um, you know, your players and your and the fans that watch you, uh that type of thing?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think they're I think the people in Charlotte are starting to know that that's kind of me. Um and I got a big pretty big shoe collection, along with a huge Christmas or holiday sweater selection. Um and so December, I always rock a couple of those for games. Last year, I think we were playing Old Miss, and I was in a Ted Lasso Believe Christmas sweater. Um, and so just just try and have fun. I think I think that's one thing when coaching, again, unique. I'm I'm trying to be really genuine with our players. We try and have fun. Like, look, like we're trying to win games and we're trying to be serious about that, but we can still enjoy it. And we can enjoy the ride, and and I'm fortunate to be coaching college basketball for a living. What a way to make a living, right? So uh I just want to have fun with it, and I want our players to have fun with it. I don't want our guys to hate basketball. Um, and so we're just trying to trying to do right by our guys. How many sweaters would you say you have? Thirty. Oh wow. Thirty. Try and wear one for every different day in December. There are all sorts of funny ones. Uh probably my favorite one. Um man, there's a couple, so I I don't even want to speak out of turn on on on it, but um the Ted Lasso one's really funny, but I I got a couple that are that are just I I I got one with like like Jesus, and and he's he's in a VW love bug. Um, but there's just so many cool ones, and it's just again to to bring out the holiday spirit in people and and it's fun.
Speaker:Yeah, must have it's coming up. I I need to get me a sweater. I just don't know what type of vibe I'm going for just yet. And I also know that you like to like, is it surfing you do? Like, is that something like you commonly do, or how's that?
Speaker 1:I I do, and my first time I ever surfed was in Australia in in 2005. Uh and and then I've surfed in Hawaii when I lived in St. Augustine uh and worked at Flagworth College. Uh there there was some surf there. Um and then and then here in Charlotte, Lake Norman, you can get up on some waves uh in the lake. Lake surfing is a little different than ocean surfing, but you know, just trying to enjoy the water. I think it's important not only as coaches but players to have different interests outside of basketball. Um I love to golf, uh, I love to play chess. Uh I do love the outdoors and to get on the water. And so, man, to try and do something that breaks up the and then and then makes you mentally fresh so when you come back to basketball, you're you're you're ready.
Speaker:Nice. How's Australia like? That's really nice.
Speaker 1:Uh it's probably one of the best trips of my life. Um, I took a team of college all-stars there, um, and we had a we had an unbelievable time and was there for 10 days, and then I stayed a couple extra days myself and got to see a World Cup game in a a different country. I didn't get to go to the game, but the watch how they watched the game in a park, 100,000 people, huge inflatable screens. Man, it was amazing. Got to go to Aborigine Farm, got to get up on some waves. Um, Australia is a very active culture, they're very friendly. Uh, and I really had a good time there. So it was highly recommend traveling. Uh, when you do travel, I I know that tourist things are one thing, but talk to the people and find out what they would do, do that because uh they know their they know their city better than you do, right? Like it's just like when people visit Charlotte, don't do the tourist things, let me show you the real things. Um and so yeah, I just I I love traveling. I meet people and um Australia was one of the best trips ever.
Speaker:Talking about Charlotte, what would you say is your favorite like local food spot?
Speaker 1:Yeah, there's this unbelievable restaurant in Elizabeth, Elizabeth's a neighborhood in Charlotte called Cajun Queen, and it's in this old uh Victorian house, and it's authentic Cajun food, and it is they've got a jazz band that plays upstairs, and it's just really, really great. Great food and we take recruits there quite often. Uh Cajun Queen's a great place.
Speaker:Now I want to move into like the fun side of the show. I'm gonna ask you some rapid questions. You have 30 seconds to get these questions. Are you ready? Ready. Alright. Uh pre-game mill. Stake. Most competitive player you ever coached. Can he die? If you weren't coaching, what career would you be in? Sales. One quote that defines you right now.
Speaker 1:Do or do not. There is no try.
Speaker:Nice. You did hey, you did good. Well, coach, I want to appreciate for taking the time of sharing your story and your mindset with us. Uh it's been a masterclass. Uh just seeing your growth, um, how'd you get into coaching, you know, the way you talk to players, you're being there for them, being a great motivator. I wish you great luck on this season. Thank you again for uh joining the show.
Speaker 1:Well, thank you for having me. I I appreciate that you're doing this. And uh if you ever need anything, please don't hesitate to ask. And and hopefully, when we're in Kentucky, you can come see a game or two, East EKU or Bellerman. Got you, most definitely. Well, thank you. Awesome, thank you.