Breaking the Silence: Flipping Teen Sex Education on its Head with Natalie Stokell

Ever felt lost steering through the sea of sex education with your tween or teen? Natalie Stokell joins us as a beacon of hope, advocating for a transformative and positive spin on this crucial aspect of parenting. She brings to the table a rich tapestry of psychology and parenting experience, making her the ideal guide for breaking generational silence and including must-have conversations about pleasure and healthy relationships. With Natalie's insights, we'll arm you with the tools to initiate these essential dialogues and navigate the digital age's explicit challenges, ensuring our youth are prepared for confident and informed intimate futures.

If you think that sex education is just about preventing diseases and pregnancies, think again. Our latest episode takes you through a reimagined journey of sex ed, where connection, healthy relationships, and pleasure anatomy are the core tenets. Natalie Stokell sheds light on why feeling-based sex education is so critical during the whirlwind of adolescence and how equipping teens with knowledge can actually lead to safer, not riskier, behaviors. We don't shy away from discussing mainstream porn's impact either, as we explore the importance of porn literacy and debunking myths for a healthier understanding of sexual pleasure.

The conversation doesn't stop there; we're passionate about ensuring these life lessons aren't relegated to awkward school assemblies or hushed whispers. Natalie's "Tell Your Daughters" platform is a treasure trove of resources, offering workshops like "Tools for Teens," which tackle consent and communication in bite-sized, relatable chunks. And for parents feeling out of their depth? We've got you covered with an evening session dedicated to you, complete with an online toolkit to support those dinner table talks. So tune in, as Natalie Stokell helps us step up the sex education game, for both our daughters and sons, and transforms uneasy conversations into empowering ones.

Show notes:

FREE 27 page Parent Glossary - so you can know what red flag acronyms your teens might be using like GNOC and KPC mean (- Get Naked On Camera, Keeping Parents Clueless):

https://mailchi.mp/265dd51442fb/p96v4k9ico

Book recommendations from preschool through to teens:

https://www.tellyourdaughters.com.au/blog/my-book-recommendations-across-all-ages

Upcoming workshops for tweens and teens:

https://www.tellyourdaughters.com.au/book-a-workshop

Waitlist for "60 one minute conversations to have with your tweens and teens about s.x, bodies and relating"

https://www.tellyourdaughters.com.au/waitlist

Thankyou for listening, if you liked it, please remember to subscribe.

Join our Private "Thriving relationships - Deepening connection to self and others" community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1107209283451758/

Website: https://michaelandamy.com.au/

Join our free 7 day relationship challenge: https://michaelandamy.com.au/free-relationship-challenge

If you would like to book in a private discovery call with us, here is the link: https://michaelandamy.com.au/call

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

If you have kids, today's episode is crucial in helping us to navigate how we bring up topics around sex with them if we do at all.

Speaker 1: 0:09

Natalie Sokel's passion for positive sex education has been with her for her whole life, but in 2021, she had one of these lightbulb moments when she realised how the current sex education model was fundamentally lacking in its delivery. Sex education model was fundamentally lacking in its delivery, so she founded Tell your Daughters a safe space where she hosts workshops for tweens and teens, as well as parent education talks for their parents and carers. Natalie Stokell is an educator, an advocate for positive sex ed and all-round parenting guru. As a mum to both a tween and a teen herself, she totally gets the rollercoaster ride of parenting during these crucial years. Natalie's background is in psychology and she's got her finger on the pulse when it comes to adolescent development. So if you're a parent listening, or even a carer who's navigating the sometimes murky waters of tween and teenhood, then this is for you. She's here to sprinkle a little wisdom and a whole lot of empathy on your parenting journey. Enjoy.

Speaker 2: 1:23

We're Michael and Amy, your Couples Connection Co connection coaches. Our mission is to help couples thrive using a conscious and holistic approach. This podcast is for couples and singles who want to unlock their relationship potential and reconnect on a deeper, more meaningful soul level. We share insights, client breakthroughs and personal stories to help move your relationship from surviving to thriving.

Speaker 1: 1:51

All right, welcome to the show, natalie Stoke-Hell. It's so, so wonderful to have you on our show because we're going to be unpacking some really edgy topics in this conversation, so I wanted to welcome you to our podcast today. How are you going?

Speaker 3: 2:09

You're really good, thank you. I'm really looking forward to diving a little deep today. And just when you mention edgy topics, then I just want to preface we won't be going too intense, but this can be a bit of a deep topic. So if anything comes up for anyone you know, just a bit of self-care. And if you need to step away, if anything comes up or reach out to me or to you guys, I imagine as well please do.

Speaker 2: 2:32

Yeah, good point. Yeah, thanks for letting us know, yeah very excited. And that's what I love about these types of opportunities is bringing stuff up that can be a little bit uncomfortable or strange. So I think that's always healthy when we're looking into those places, because it's, yeah, something that needs to kind of be explored or healed or uncovered or understood, or yeah, there's something there for all of us to go into.

Speaker 3: 2:56

For sure, yeah, for sure. And especially those of us who are parents, who are working on breaking any of the generational stuff we come with. Yeah, definitely Perfect, so let's breaking any of the generational stuff we come with.

Speaker 1: 3:06

Yeah, definitely, yeah, great, perfect. So let's start there. Natalie, I wanted to maybe get you to introduce yourself and maybe speak into where this flame has come from, under you, where you're sharing this amazing, powerful message that encompasses parents and teenagers. Where does that all come from?

Speaker 3: 3:24

powerful message that encompasses parents and teenagers. Where does that all come from? Well, my background is psychology. I'm a mother of a tween and a teen both girls and I did a Master's in Psychology, a diploma in Gender and Women's Studies, and my thesis looked at the way in which the media affect women's body esteem and self-esteem. And then I was looking at doing a PhD, but channeling more into sexuality and the media, and was looking at PhD programs in the States, and then just had a pivot and decided I wanted to explore the real world. So I kind of left that there.

Speaker 3: 3:58

But it's been brewing for a long time and when I first became a mother, and a mother of a daughter, I bought the domain name Tell your Daughters because I knew that there was some stuff there that was going to happen one day and that baby is now 15. And a few years ago I realized that it was definitely time. When I looked and when I realized the sex ed they were receiving, especially in schools, and saw how lacking it was and it wasn't much an upgrade to compare to the sex ed that I received many years ago at school, I just realized the deep need for it, and especially today, when the world is changing so quickly and the online world and the digital world, so I just saw a real deep need to provide our children with what I really feel they need when it comes to their sex ed. Yeah, amazing yeah.

Speaker 1: 4:51

So tell us a little bit about that space and and you know sex education, because for me I don't know. You're probably the same when we're at school. I vaguely remember it, but I remember the awkwardness, the energy of the awkwardness, not only amongst the classmates but the teacher and the. I guess that the tension that existed in that, in that classroom, and it was almost like I've just got to get this done so that I can tick a box yeah, for sure so tell me it was that your experience and and can you speak into what the current model maybe looks like?

Speaker 3: 5:26

Definitely. I mean, that was my experience as well, and also my experience as someone raised as a girl and a female was that female pleasure was not mentioned. You know sex was intercourse and ejaculation. That's what sex was. You know there was no mention of female orgasm or anything like that, or female pleasure sex was. You know there was no mention of female orgasm or anything like that, or female pleasure. So, uh, yeah, which was upsetting, confusing, you know, as a teenager.

Speaker 3: 5:51

Uh, these days it really varies depending on the school and the teacher and the resources, but as a whole, I mean schools are. You know they're limited resources in terms of funding and time. There's not much consistency between schools. Yes, there's a curriculum, but it's really up to the school about how that's delivered and who they've got there, who can deliver it, and not to mention, like you mentioned, the awkwardness and what that classroom situation can be, depending on the class dynamics, what else is going on in that class, the relationships within that class. There are so many layers. So I really tell parents that we cannot rely on the sex ed that our children are receiving in schools. It's really important that we supplement that and we provide them with more of a comprehensive, comprehensive, sorry, education of our own that we give them or we provide them with resources.

Speaker 2: 6:43

Yeah, I can see why that is so important. Um, I was just trying to reflect on my sex ed as I was growing up and I don't actually to be honest, oh, either I shut it out or it didn't even happen, like I can't even quite remember, or maybe there's one vague class that I remember. But yeah, you're right that the lack of information, the lack of understanding of even our anatomy in our body, male or female, yeah, I don't yeah, it's just so.

Speaker 2: 7:09

Um, surprising to me that we've had a similar podcast a little bit diving deeper into the sex, but um, yeah, that highlighted for me how little I knew about it yeah sex on there and showing me parts of my body and I'm like, yeah, I didn't even know that existed so yeah, I can imagine for a teenager, whether it's male or female, to understand themselves a bit more and the need and the the necessity of this in the schools and into communities and into families.

Speaker 2: 7:38

I guess, ultimately because it is our responsibility as parents to provide more of this and we can't like I think that's something that we can't always just oh, the school will sort that out and we'll just pretend to cover our ears La, la, la, la, exactly.

Speaker 2: 7:53

But yeah, it's a good one to kind of highlight to our listeners that it probably needs to start at home. It's something that we need to start and encourage more open communication. And if it's awkward for us, then how are we going to deliver that to the kids? And that's where you step in to help us with that right, yeah, definitely.

Speaker 3: 8:11

Yeah, school is too little and too late as well. You know, um, the sex that they receive is often going to be in secondary school and, um, often upper secondary, and by then it's too late for so many, so many children, and sex ed is really an ongoing conversation that can start from when your children are really young and it just goes on and age appropriately and organically, just builds and builds, you know, rather than the talk or the one or two or three classes they're going to get at school.

Speaker 1: 8:39

Yeah, you, you before. I just heard you go la, la, la la. Like you know, block your ears kind of.

Speaker 1: 8:44

Thing I've got a feeling, in a sense, that you challenge that exact thing, because there's parents and there's us, there's even us, like you know who we consider ourselves like fairly conscious parents. Um, we do block out our eyes and our ears to the reality of what I guess even what's being taught in the school in regards to sex ed, and I wondered like firstly, do you think that it's damaging what's actually being taught in the schools at the moment? Do you think that there's actually some negative impacts of the current sex ed? That's such a good question.

Speaker 3: 9:23

I couldn't say, because I think it really, really varies from the school to the teacher, like it really varies, I think, in terms of damaging. I mean, I think they're missing lots of opportunities and they're just so limited. What they can deliver is the bare basics, so maybe not the information being delivered is damaging, but it's damaging that they're not getting the information they need.

Speaker 1: 9:46

Sure. So there's a lack of information, quality information. So can you tell us a bit about what positive sex ed would actually be Sure?

Speaker 3: 9:53

Yeah, so I talk about positive sex ed because I really like to view sex ed through a different lens.

Speaker 3: 10:01

So traditionally sex ed is viewed through the lens of, like, fear and prevention. You know we can't get pregnant, we can't get STDs, so that kind of the safety side of it is, and as well as the fear side of it when it comes to attitudes around sex. You know if you have sex too young or have sex with the wrong person or someone finds out you've had sex, you know all the kind of the negative beliefs you may have around it. So I like to reframe it and talk about sex slightly differently, Because sex is such a it can be such a connecting thing, it can be such a beautiful thing and pleasurable, like. There's so many things we can talk about when it comes to sex that aren't just based around fear and prevention. So I like to include connection, healthy, relating. I like to talk about pleasure anatomy versus reproductive anatomy. So reproductive anatomy, like in a woman, like ovaries, uterus, vagina, and then pleasure anatomy going more deeper into vulva, labia, clitoris, cervix, with relation to pleasure and nerves, as opposed to pregnancy and birth. So really expanding the view of sex ed rather than limiting it to this thing which is fear and prevention. You know it's expanding the view and giving them the opportunity for them to expand their view of sex as well. It's not just this limited thing that we've got to be a bit scared of or we've got to prevent certain things around. We can really. It can be a really beautiful connecting thing.

Speaker 3: 11:29

Um, I also talk about, uh, positive sex ed, as in being feeling based. So I talk about fear-based sex ed and then feeling-based sex ed, which I think can be so helpful for teens, especially because those of us who have teens will know they're a big bundle of feelings and if you're a teen yourself, you remember just the intensity with which you felt things. So if we can really meet them at their level and and engage with it from the perspective of feelings rather than fear, we're just giving them so much more information and education where they can really make more of an informed decision about what they're going to do with those feelings and where they can go with those feelings, rather than just limiting it to the fear base. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1: 12:11

Yeah, it makes sense yeah.

Speaker 2: 12:14

I think the thing that came to me then was like the feeling base, because you know, as you know, the transition from you know, tweens into teens is such a big, from an 11-year-old to a 13-year-old is such a big transition. And trying to understand all these emotions as well that are going on, let alone put that into context of like, is this the right, is this okay, is this not good, is this bad? And labelling all of this stuff as well, and pushing it down and hiding it away and pretending it's not happening. And, yeah, there's so much for them to understand about themselves in that time that it's important to process those feelings. And what is that feeling? Because I think society, you know, we're so caught up in busyness and keeping going and you know the next thing and stimulation, social media, especially at that age yeah, tuning back into their feeling and what is that feeling and associating with that is, I feel like that's beautiful, yeah.

Speaker 3: 13:14

And also their bodies, tuning them back into their bodies, you know, and the feelings they have in their bodies. Where their body ends someone else's begins the connection. You know the relationships there's just so much we can teach them about healthy relating as well as boundaries and safety and all that kind of thing, but just that, the healthy relating from the heart and from the body in a more holistic way, I guess seeing sex ed is more holistic, I think is super important. And the teens we're meeting them where they're at they're going to respond so much more, you know as well.

Speaker 2: 13:46

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think that's a challenge for parents, though, to meet them where they're at, because, without your understanding, obviously you've done research and you've studied in this area, but for the general parent, we're like, how do we relate to that? Again, I can't remember being a teenager and you know have locked it out or pushed it away, or we didn't have anything like that, so we're meeting them, sorry, yeah yeah, I think that's a great one.

Speaker 2: 14:10

You know, just meeting where they're at. But how do you do that? How do you meet them where they're at, or what? What would you suggest for people?

Speaker 3: 14:17

uh, so I was just going to say, because often we're meeting them where we're at you know, and we're at oh my god, my baby is looking, it's starting a relationship oh my god, they're going to get hurt. Oh my god, they're going to get pregnant. Oh my god. They're going to oh my god, you know fill in the gap.

Speaker 3: 14:31

So it's, I think, first of all that of self-regulation and, yeah, meeting ourselves where we're at, so then we can meet them where they're at. So I I mean research there's so many amazing books and research as a part of your journey as a parent. You can read. But initially, some regulation and reassurance and self-soothing, I think could be super helpful. And then, just like you said, remembering that there are a bundle of feelings and that we can expand the view, we can talk about sex as pleasure. And just because we're saying sex as pleasure doesn't mean they're going to run out and have it. You know, the research shows that the more educated um someone is around sex ed, actually the longer they wait and the better decisions they make and the reduced likelihood of teen pregnancy and sti.

Speaker 3: 15:19

So, actually, education is power. In this case, like it's not a case of the more we tell them, the more they're going to do it. It is almost the opposite. So removing some of your own, or reassuring some of your own fears, I think, is definitely a good starting spot if we're not infusing positive sex education to them, then they're going to receive some sort of education somewhere, aren't they?

Speaker 1: 15:44

Now, I'm not talking about from the school, but we just look outwards and we look at the world and we see what we can normalise or what our friends are doing or what our friends are watching, totally.

Speaker 1: 15:56

And so we can become influenced by our environment to a level where that becomes our knowledge, level where that becomes our knowledge and that becomes all that we know. Because as educators or within this um, you know, quote unquote system like of sex ed, it's just not enough, and so they're going to just start to formulate what they think sex is. And maybe that is just penetration, maybe that is only just um looking at pornography and look at how they do it.

Speaker 1: 16:24

So I wanted to maybe dive into pornography and teens and maybe how that impacts them, because for me, just so I can continue on my ramble here, I'm trying to think about when I first saw pornography, and I would say that it was probably in Year 7. I think I was probably about yeah, I probably would have been about that 13 years of age. I'd say, but what that looked like is vastly different to what we can see today. What?

Speaker 1: 16:53

that was was going down to my best mate's dad. You know, underneath this, dusty little thing. And we opened this box up and we had to, you know like dust it off like whoa, and there was these Playboy magazines that were like from the 70s and you know you're just flicking through this and just going, wow, this is crazy stuff. So nowadays, can you tell me about what kids are exposed to Of?

Speaker 3: 17:18

course, yeah, and that's just a huge thing to remember today that that it's that natural curiosity that's so normal and so beautiful and as part of their. It's developmentally appropriate for teens to to find out about sex because it's part of you know, their biology, their physiology are telling their body is soon becoming capable of reproduction, so they've got to inform and educate themselves. Amazing they're doing. They are doing exactly what they're meant to be doing by doing their research. And, like you say that when we were younger our research was the magazine and it was, you know, women with big bush and not much. You know, there was not much going on, like it wasn't, it was really quite vanilla, and I mean still explicit, but nothing. I mean quite normal and vanilla. These days.

Speaker 3: 18:06

You know the way we do our research.

Speaker 3: 18:09

We, the recent, we research from a little device in our pocket or a computer in front of us and they're what we can find within a few taps is vastly different from what we'll find and that the box under the bed or even going into the library and looking up things about sex or relationships hugely different. So if they're still doing what they're meant to be doing, they're still researching, but what they're going to find is potentially well, potentially damaging, potentially graphic, potentially quite disturbing, especially for a young, impressionable person doing the research. Imagine you're doing a research and one of the first things you come across is just something really graphic and intense that is going to become part of the lens through which you view sex and relating. So, yeah, this is something we need to be super aware of with our teens and, again, giving them that positive sex ed and the lenses through which to discern and to make sense of what they come across. I had another train of thought. I've just lost it. Then, no, it's gone, it'll come to me back in a minute.

Speaker 1: 19:17

I find it really tricky to think about how I can do that, like, yes, how I can have those conversations without it being so awkward, and and and also. Yeah, I just find that really tricky, so you, know for me like there's, there's. I know that you know, for example, we've got, we've got a daughter and I know that she'd be embarrassed, she'd be super embarrassed. I am not doing this, I'm not looking at this. This conversation is not happening.

Speaker 2: 19:49

So yeah, it's how do we like how do we start to approach that with them?

Speaker 3: 19:55

Yes.

Speaker 3: 19:56

So, there's, like I said, this is a. The sex ed conversation can start so young and it's an ongoing conversation. But the tween and teen years are especially important. So the tween years, which is, let's say, around 8 to 12 tween years, are amazing for these kind of conversations because they're neurologically they're they thinking's starting to change from concrete to abstract, so they're becoming more capable of grasping different concepts. They've also got a really healthy curiosity. But most importantly, while they're becoming more conscious of themselves, they're not yet really self-conscious. So they're quite open to having these conversations. They're not yet embarrassed and also, just as importantly, they still really think you're the bee's knees, you're still pretty cool, you're still on the pedestal. They haven't realized yet that you're a human and that you make mistakes and that you're flawed. So tween years are amazing for this. Obviously age appropriate. But you can have loads of foundational conversations and in later teen years you can definitely of foundational uh conversations and in later 10 years you can definitely, depending on the maturity of I use the age you know, let's go by maturity you know your child, um, depending on the maturity of your child, and also follow their lead. They give them just enough information and they'll come back to you with questions and a bit of a to and a fro and they'll go away, digest, they may come back, those kind of things. So it's tricky moving into 10 years. Like you said, the 10 years there's a lot more self-consciousness and it's becoming, yes, they're more capable of abstract thinking, but it's becoming a lot more applicable to themselves. What we're talking about it's not just this happens when I'm older. It's oh, I'm starting to get there, I'm. This is a conversation that can be quite personal. Now this is when it does become trickier.

Speaker 3: 21:41

So a few things I recommend is there are amazing books and resources. I've just pulled aside a couple here that are really good. So my um teen 15 she's not a reader at all, like she doesn't, she's not really a reader, but she will read a graphic novel and there are a couple of amazing um graphics. So this is called let's talk about it, and then this one's called wait what? And we can link these in the show notes, but I'll just have a little flick through. So these are just really good kind of graphic novel style, really digestible, super easy about so many topics consent, dating, relationships, connecting bodies and I actually gave this to my tween as well because I mean, she, obviously I pre-read it. But and she's um being my daughter, she's quite, she, you know she knows quite a lot already. Um, and she had a flick through and I knew she would just take what she needed and she wouldn't take on anything else and I was happy with all her knowing all this information anyway, but it's just really digestible, really palatable. So books are amazing and you can even just pop, leave it on the bed with a little note. You know this is recommended, thought it might be good for you. I know it's embarrassing, we don't have to talk about it, but I'm here if you want to. Um, yes, the books are amazing.

Speaker 3: 22:58

Uh, talks can also be super important, even just so your teen knows that you're open to talking about those kind of things. I'm a huge fan of especially in the teen years of parallel talking. So this is talking shoulder to shoulder as opposed to face to face. So when we talk face to face, you know we've got eye contact and connection. I can read your expressions consciously, subconscious connection. I can read your expressions consciously, subconsciously. I'm reading your micro expressions. I'm reading your responses to what I'm saying. I'm analyzing that and I'm aware you're doing the same. So when we're face to face, yes, it has a beautiful connection but also can have a heightened self-consciousness resume. With shoulder to shoulder we're not under the scrutiny of the eye contact. We're not worried about micro expressions. If there's some embarrassment or shame or awkwardness, I'm not going to be too overly concerned with that because I know you're not seeing. You're not seeing that. So some examples of shoulder to shoulder conversations are like doing the dishes together, uh, doing some housework or diy.

Speaker 3: 23:58

If you're an arty family, you could do something creative. In my workshops, at the end of each workshop we have a watercolour exercise and then I go through the anonymous questions. So during the workshop, when I pass a jar around, they put anonymous questions in and fold up so no one knows. And when they're doing the drawing, I read out the anonymous questions. So, no, they don't have to go embarrassed when it's their question because no one's looking at them. I'm not looking at them, they're not looking at each other. Their nervous system is relaxed because they're just doing this, creating um, also with teens.

Speaker 3: 24:27

Uh, walking can be amazing, especially walk in nature, because you've got the benefit of the calming of nature, the walking, the left right brain connection, because that movement driving can be amazing. Again, you're side to side, they can't escape, uh. So they've got to listen. Obviously be careful and be mindful. You don't want to torch your teen who's awkwardness and it might just be a five minute conversation. Then you put their favorite song on and that's it, or just a short ride. You know again, you know your teen, you know what they can handle. But these shoulder to shoulder conversations are just really easy and beautiful way of connecting and relating. It could even be a thing you know every Sunday you walk to get an ice cream, or when you walk the dog, or you know, just so that space is created and you may even find the come of times when your teen's like hey, can we take a walk? You know, and you know that you've created that safe space for them. Another, so you've got books, resources. Another one can be like.

Speaker 3: 25:22

So obviously, sending, if you know of a sex positive or a workshop that you've vetted, that feels good.

Speaker 3: 25:30

You know, sending them to a workshop or some other education, as well as finding other grown-ups, trusted aunties or uncles and I don't meanups trusted aunties or uncles, and I don't necessarily mean blood aunties and uncles, just adopted aunties and uncles and that could be one of their friends, parents. Sometimes it's much easier for them to have that conversation with them, especially because we don't like to view our parents as sexual beings. You know, god forbid, oh my God. But someone else's parents is not as gross, uh. So you know we could if we got close friendships, or we could even have a phone call and say, hey, I'm worried about this. You know, would you mind, do you feel open to having a conversation with them about that, or even get that person to give them the book with the note? You know, even if you provide the book for them to give, you know like there's so many ways you can indirectly get that information to your child that aren't through the organist or the embarrassment of that face-to-face.

Speaker 2: 26:25

Good ones there, really good ones. I was just thinking the walking is probably. I've started creating a bit more of a space for that with my daughter, and it does seem to work.

Speaker 3: 26:33

Yeah, beautiful.

Speaker 1: 26:34

Yeah, and that indirectness is absolutely wonderful, absolutely wonderful, and I've I've seen that happen even in the space. I've been running some men's circles for a while now and more recently what was coming to me was imagine if we just ran a workshop where boys and men can just get together and just make something or do something you know and we just ran this blacksmithing workshop and the beauty of that was it still facilitated a space for men to open up about deeper conversations, which was happening but it's also happening with the younger boys there as well.

Speaker 1: 27:07

So they're part of that process and, uh, what I found was that it gives them an indirect space to open up, where they're doing something and making something at the same time. So I'm imagining that's the same kind of dynamic that you're speaking about.

Speaker 3: 27:22

Yes, yeah, definitely, and that shoulder to shoulder connection and relating in that safe space, and also you're, you're busy, your brain, you're regulated, just you know you. You're receptive to receiving that information as well.

Speaker 1: 27:33

Yeah, for sure, great, yeah. So that that's that information, and yeah, we're definitely going to try some of those too. And I wanted to ask you are teens having sex earlier these days?

Speaker 3: 27:49

So there's a lot of different, there's different research. They do seem to be slightly earlier, not too worryingly earlier. The most recent study done in australia, average age was 15, which is earlier than in in the past. But what I think is more interesting is that there seems to be earlier, there seems to be more experience or more variety. So, for example, like anal sex was quite common, not just penis, vagina sex, and to me that was quite eye opening Because in the past generally that's something that comes later.

Speaker 3: 28:33

This is one of the things I believe as well, because the prevalence of porn and porn, normalizing so much of that and obviously anal sex is quite normalized in porn, in the same way that violence is normalized in porn. In porn, uh, there's a study done recently and verbal aggression occurred in 48 percent of the the porn that they, and physical aggression occurs in 88%. Wow, yes, and of that, 97% of the time women were the receivers. So that's just normalising aggression, normalising physical violence, but also against women, and a lot of that violence can fall under the BDSM kink side and it's not to shame it at all, there's definitely a place for that. But if you think of percentage-wise and again there's not many stats around the actual percentage, which is probably about 15% to 20%, of people really enjoy and actually get turned on by BDSM. But then if you think about like 88 percent of porn is, it's just skewed, it's not matching what's in the population, so it's becoming normalized.

Speaker 3: 29:42

So then if people are watching this and seeing it as normal and oh, this is what happens and I'm supposed to do this and I'm supposed to enjoy this, but I don't, you know, that can just cause that conflict as well as uh, I don't know if you know much about that the choking, the normalization of choking during sex has become really big and I didn't realize how normalized it was until I started seeing in my things my daughter is engaging with and socials like the move in TikTok, dances and things like a dance move.

Speaker 3: 30:16

Choking yourself has become a dance move and it's become something to do. When you take a selfie, you know, and they're not even realizing that it's just like a, you know, like a pose, not even realizing what they're actually recreating. It's become that normal. And again, the stats for choking, you know, probably may even be like five percent of people actually really enjoy and get physically turned on. Beautiful, but then. But then if you apply that to you know 90,. That's occurring in 90% of porn. It just leaves that real gap and if teens aren't educated or haven't been given like the porn literacy to how they're going to view porn, then they're going to develop some ideas that may not match their own experience and also potentially really unsafe and damaging.

Speaker 2: 31:04

So that's another big conversation that the porn literacy conversation I think is super important to have as well. Yeah, it's surprising, hey, and, like you said, if that's where they're getting their information, their knowledge, they're researching, of course, yeah, and that becomes like oh yeah, that's what we do, that's how it's done, I've seen it, yep, and you're like, oh, it's such a skewed view. It's so yeah, and again really limiting what sex can be.

Speaker 3: 31:25

It can be so much more. And again coming back that feeling base like let's share the feelings. Does this feel good? Okay, I'm going to express it, that this does feel good. It doesn't feel good. It's working our communication skills and getting in touch with our feelings, like all of that so important and being okay to speak up as well, of course, yeah knowing it's okay to speak up and knowing that it's supposed to feel good. Number one thing about sex it's supposed to feel good. That's number one isn't that?

Speaker 1: 31:49

isn't that just a key point there? Because I think we put so much um emphasis on performance, especially, you know, for like for guys as well, and it's like am I doing this right? This is how I've seen it to be done yes, so maybe I'll just go hard here and then you know, and that's apparently what is the right thing to do. We're not going off our feeling senses there, we're going on what you've seen and learned and watched, and that's all a play as well so it's just crazy, you know, and yeah

Speaker 3: 32:20

yeah, and and you, while porn is teaching the guys about performance, porn has teach the woman to be performative as well, you know, and it's just it's so because it's generally created through the eyes of men. I mean, there are some amazing, um, ethical, non-mainstream porn. I think porn definitely has its place. There are some amazing ethical, non-mainstream porn. I think porn definitely has its place. There are some amazing. But mainstream porn as an industry, yeah, it's just so potentially really damaging for our children and the whole pleasure thing.

Speaker 3: 32:48

I think that is so important that we can tune into our pleasure and know that pleasure is supposed to, sex is supposed to be pleasurable. Yeah, for me that's a big value of mine. It's something I taught from a very young age and you can, like my, you know, in the bath with my toddlers. Show me your ears and this is your eye, and you know. And then, and I taught them what their vulva was, and then this and this little button. Then there's your clitoris and it's supposed to give you pleasure. Now show me your knees. You know, like it'd be simple as that just mentioning.

Speaker 3: 33:14

They have a clitoris and it's to give you pleasure, like it hasn't got to be this, that's, that's a fact. It's not sexualizing or it's not, you know, like just that. And then, as we're older and I can't do, you know there's a window when you can talk about that without them getting too embarrassed. My tween is just on the other side that window now, but you know we used to get mirrors out and talk about our body parts, like there's so many ways you can do it when they're younger. So for me, um, pleasure is a value, is something I really imbued in a lot of my conversations, especially because I have girls.

Speaker 2: 33:46

And when we have these conversations, to think about what your family values are and what things you want to imbue in the conversations along the way is important as well it's really powerful and I think, like you were saying before, like there's an age, you know age-appropriate kind of education sharing knowledge and information, and like you were saying, you adjust it accordingly. But I think you mentioned before like the 8 to 12 years they're kind of still young enough, but not so you know understanding that it's not too embarrassing. Yet Of course so is that kind of the good age to start to really bring some of those deeper conversations in, would you say For sure.

Speaker 3: 34:27

Yeah, definitely I say you really want to. I'm a big fan of being proactive rather than reactive when it comes to sex ed. So getting things in there before you need to, and definitely you want to start telling your children these things before they find out from other people, especially the big things. I remember when my eldest was seven and she came home from school, or maybe even six, between six and seven, came home from school and told me that a friend had told her how babies are made and was this true? And you know, the way she was told wasn't the most beautiful way I was planning on telling her and my heart just broke. So I told wasn't the most beautiful way I was planning on telling her and my heart just broke. So I had to really repair that. Of course I had the books and we, you know, spoke about it, but it was a repair rather than me telling in this beautiful way. So I definitely encourage parents to start talking about this earlier, don't leaving it. Don't leave it until you think they, you know, know, maybe need it.

Speaker 3: 35:21

And there are so many beautiful books you can use to help you with this and so many beautiful age-appropriate books. There's even books for, you know, young children about how babies are made, but it doesn't mention sex, but it just mentions, you know, the sperm and the egg, but it doesn't talk about how it gets there. So that could be the first layer, then the next. You know there's so many ways you can layer it that that are appropriate for um, children and also when you're younger, like a preschool, a lot of the books can be obviously, a lot of the education around. There is more about body safety, you know so, boundaries, keeping your body safe, your body's your own, so those kind of things. And there's so many amazing books, um, I can I send you a link in the show notes as well, the books I recommend.

Speaker 2: 36:01

And then you again, you just layer, layer on top of that as you go yeah, it's kind of like something that's all all throughout their childhood, all throughout their, you know, development is is incorporated at different yeah, yeah yeah that's so important? I don't. I think that something that we've probably not done. Like michael said, we're a little bit more conscious, but I probably haven't actually gone into that space because I guess you know I'm following examples from role models in the past as well, so it's starting to kind of change that now for you guys to kind of okay, it's okay to talk about this stuff, it's not embarrassing, and I think I still hold on a bit of that inside of me.

Speaker 2: 36:40

So it's like oh, that feels awkward, but yeah. But like you said, the books, the research, understanding, like how?

Speaker 3: 36:43

to speak about.

Speaker 2: 36:43

It is um, and like you said, it's probably better to have some sort of conversation than avoiding it altogether. Even if it is awkward or weird, it's probably some some way to start.

Speaker 3: 36:52

I think definitely and if you can't have the actual conversation, just a book on the bed with a note yeah, you know come, come to me with your questions or go to Auntie, so-and-so with your questions, or I'm here for your questions, you know, like just an opening, so they know that it's okay and even if you do feel some shame yourself, which we all may have from our past, you know, not passing that shame on and just yeah, really having that open channel.

Speaker 1: 37:18

Yeah, you kind of get one opportunity. I think you know like you get a window and if you miss the window, then it gets a bit harder, and I think that's the message, and I also love that you you put pleasure as at the forefront of it. This should be pleasurable. Most of the time, our education or the way we communicate is based on fear, because inherently inside of us, maybe our biggest fear as parents is that she'll get pregnant when she's 40 and then how will that look for her and what will we do then?

Speaker 1: 37:53

Will we, you know, like, look at abortion? Will we, you know, like all? These things come up in your mind and then before you know it, you've already recreated this whole thing. And then it's all about, okay, protection, right, and so it's all about defensiveness. And how can?

Speaker 1: 38:08

I protect them, and then that is a product. I believe that's how I was presented. Sex education it was all about prevention and safety, like you said at the start. So coming from the place of this is what it's for. It actually should be pleasurable, and can you communicate that this is not pleasurable and that this is actually really good? What a wonderful gift, you know, if you can help them to speak up in intimate moments like that, they're going to be miles ahead of most adults in our generation that have been together in a relationship for 20 years and they're doing the same thing that they don't like, because it's like going to the hairdresser and you just go. Yeah, thanks for the haircut. I hate that haircut every time.

Speaker 2: 38:50

And you walk out.

Speaker 3: 38:50

yeah, yeah definitely yeah, and the more opportunities you know we can give them to practice speaking in their voice and to practice consent in non-sexual ways and to normalize things like rejection and to normalize saying no and to normalize listening for someone else's no and reading body language. There's so many ways as parents we can give them opportunities to practice all these kinds of things. So then when they are in a situation in a physically intimate situation, it's almost second nature to say or to do these things, because they've had so many opportunities to practice in other avenues areas of their life. I have something I've always done with my girls talking about consent here from when they were a young age, and it's something I just started doing. That I learned in a self-defense course myself and I kind of adapt it as a thing for my children.

Speaker 3: 39:38

Basically, the rule in my family and with my girls has been someone's doing something you don't want you say you tell them to stop, no, stop. If they keep going, then you say it a bit louder because you know maybe they didn't hear you. So no, stop. If they still keep going, then you can add a lot of emphasis to it. In our house it's okay to add a swear word, because if one of my children swear, my ears are going to perk up and I'm going to know something's going on, um. And also, if they're out outside of the house and something's happening and another adult hears them swearing, you know loudly, fuck off or something. They're going to get involved. So, third, they're allowed to swear and if they still keep doing it then they can use physical force. So they know, you know we're not going to stop and punch soft tissue or faces, but you know, a push, a shove, a kick, um. They also know that with, uh, an adult, they don't know something's going on, they know the spots to go. For you know that will have more of an impact.

Speaker 3: 40:28

So for me there are loads. You know, chill siblings, there's a lot of fighting. I've got girls, but they still can get physical with each other. Uh, it's getting better. Now when they're younger, you know quite quickly would escalate. So stop, stop fucking, stop physical and just. There's so many opportunities for them to practice this and a couple of years ago my eldest she was about 13. She came home she said, oh, son, so it was doing this to me in the playground today. Told him to stop. Didn't stop time, so again told him if I didn't so I kicked him in the shins.

Speaker 2: 40:56

It's like yes you know, and it was just it was second nature for her.

Speaker 3: 41:01

She did what we've been practicing home. She did in a situation with someone else and that just made me so proud, and I don't mean that in a way to say we should all be violent beings, you know.

Speaker 3: 41:11

But just so proud that she stood up for herself, she was able to practice, to do what we've been practicing. So there's so many things as parents we can give our children the opportunities in the house and in the home to practice that they can then apply as they get older in their interpersonal and also their physically intimate relationships such great tools.

Speaker 2: 41:32

I love those you know like you said and encouraging that and being okay, like, like that's something that they've just ingrained from a young yeah, part of them like an escalation process?

Speaker 1: 41:42

yeah, totally yeah, yeah, yeah, I guess probably just got time for one more question and I was just thinking about single fathers, because I've, I've got a few friends that, um, that are single dads and um, and you know what, can you, I don't know? Can you, can you speak into that, that space, and maybe, if there's any guidance that you have for them, yep, yep.

Speaker 3: 42:05

So single dad, especially for dads of daughters, because I think they're the dynamic there it can be. I mean, even I didn't want to talk to my dad and then my, my daughters even though we're really open, my daughters would much rather talk to me than they would their dad. Now, sure, if we had sons it would be likely to be the opposite, just because we can relate. So I would definitely suggest finding those aunties, and they may be. It could even be someone at a teacher at school they connect with. It could be someone in the community, it could be a friend, could be a parent of one of their friends, and just picking up the phone or sending an email or a text and saying I really want to have this conversation with my daughter about this. I'm struggling. Would you be able to step in and take her for a walk and a talk, or would you be able, you know, so, utilizing those aunties and as a mom, I would love to, you know, be asked to be an auntie and I have been asked to be an auntie for different people, you know, just to have those conversations that it's a real privilege. So not to be scared to reach out to, to use the resources to use the books and things to put them on the bed, but to also still encourage a bit of that space and to say, hey, I know it's a bit awkward, I know I'm your dad, but I want to know. I am here for you. You can't move any questions if I don't know the answer. I'm going to say, hey, I don't know and I'll get back to you. Yeah, another thing that's beautiful that I did with my elder daughter for a period and I'll start soon.

Speaker 3: 43:26

My younger daughter is having a notebook, a shared notebook, um, that you can write to each other in and you don't discuss what's in the notebook unless it needs to come outside the notebook. But it can be a place just to write some feelings. It can be a place to write questions and it will depend on the child if they're into that or if they're more of a verbal processor. That might not be so good, but for a child who thinks differently and likes to write and process that way or to receive information through reading, that can be super helpful. So a dad could have a notebook, pop it in the bed and say let's experiment with this, and you know every time you've got a question or something's going on for you and they may need to start a bit with you. Know the dad writing oh sorry, I was grumpy the other day. Da, da da.

Speaker 3: 44:05

You know, just a bit of vulnerability or a bit of sharing. Or when I was your age, I remember just a bit of vulnerability and openness to see if that's welcome and to play back and forth with that. That can be another idea. And then, just yeah, utilising all the resources. I've had a few people single dads send their daughters to my workshops, which is beautiful as well. I really value when all parents who are keen to educate their children in ways that they struggle with because I know it's actually this area can be a way that a lot of us struggle with. But, yes, seeking out those resources and the people that can support your children in ways that you can't.

Speaker 1: 44:46

Yeah, beautiful.

Speaker 2: 44:48

So tell us more about those workshops, because I know that that's something that you're holding. Is it on the Sunshine Coast? Yes, yes, yeah, thank you.

Speaker 3: 45:03

Yeah, so I have. At the moment I've got two age groups. For girls I do 11 to 13 and then 14 plus, and I call them tools for teens so they don't feel like they're going to a sex ed workshop, they're coming for a workshop. That's tools for teens. And in the 11 to 13, the tools we do, so we do some communication tools. So we have opportunities.

Speaker 3: 45:14

We do talk a lot about consent, but in non-sexual ways, and we do a lot of opportunities to practice different ways of consenting, listening for consent, you know, again, not relating to sexual. And then, once we've done all the consent stuff, I do say what if someone wanted to kiss you? You know how many. So that's the kind of the deepest we go into sexual, you know, oh, kiss, oh imagine. We go into sexual. You know, oh kiss, oh imagine. Well, I might say that I didn't want to. You know, we, we have a lot of discussions, uh, we do a lot of body positivity, the media, uh, we look at again, pleasure, anatomy, uh, and then you know what's going on our body in terms of our nervous system and a bit of mindset. And then the 14 plus is a lot more explicit. We do dive into consent. That's really relating explicitly to sex. Uh, we talk about healthy relationships. So red flags, green flags, amber flags amber flag is something that depends on the context, so with a lot of juicy conversations around that, uh, we also we do talk about safe sex and contraception. It's really fun.

Speaker 3: 46:10

I do this thing called the condom olympics, so we have all these different games with. We've got two different things the condoms and the kids. Like there's so much laughter but they become familiar with condoms, how to use them. So it's, yeah, they're really really good, super fun. Each one comes with an evening it's just for the parents, where I go through everything that I'm talking about with the teens and the tweens, just so the parents know and all across board with what's happening. And then in june this year I've got some porn literacy workshops coming up and that's 14 plus all gender, but 14 plus, and that's really giving teens a new lens through which to view the information they're finding when they see porn terms of it not being realistic, unethical, that kind of thing. But also it's a bit of a gateway to talk about a whole lot of other things talk about consent and how they relate. You know, hey, hey, teens come to this workshop about porn.

Speaker 3: 47:02

Oh my god, bring it on, I want to talk about porn, but also I'm going to tell you about consent, and so it's a really good way to make it um interesting, accessible and engaging for the, the teens themselves.

Speaker 2: 47:09

Yeah amazing, and they're just all in person, though none of that's online yet, or no?

Speaker 3: 47:13

not yet the moment's all in person.

Speaker 3: 47:16

Uh, there will be some of the porn that you see for parents, um, coming online, but that's more um, like a toolkit for parents, with conversation starters and resources too, so they can have some of those parallel conversations with their teens and some resources and as well as parallel conversations, if it's not, if it's more of a abstract topic, the dinner table is an amazing place for these kind of conversations and even if it's two grown-ups at the table talking, the children are going to be listening. You know, like talking about oh, do you see that thing in the news the other day? And then we have a conversation about consent relating around that or hypothetical questions that aren't so. It's not personal, it's just oh, one of your friends is at a party and they're a bit drunk and you know a guy was kissing them but you could tell that they weren't into it, but they were too drunk. What would you do? You know, there's so many ways we can start educating it and teens love being asked their opinion and you know, so we can really work with that.

Speaker 3: 48:17

So, in terms of the online, there's a toolkit coming out that's for parents, so not not for the teens, but for parents to use with the teens.

Speaker 2: 48:21

Yeah, amazing yeah, there's so much I must say. I love your social media on your instagram and if anyone's listening, I definitely recommend it, because some of your stuff that you bring up onto that social media, yeah is actually I'm like. I was a bit I'm like you know, I'll just let people go and have a look at your social.

Speaker 1: 48:40

Make sure you do.

Speaker 2: 48:41

Yeah.

Speaker 3: 48:41

I really appreciate that. Yeah, just tell your daughters. Tell your daughters yeah.

Speaker 2: 48:46

Yeah, because I think those sorts of things is what kind of went right. I've got to get on top of this. Like there's so much stuff that I don't know what's going on out there, particularly with social media. So it's like now's the time, like if you've got girls any age or boys, to be honest it's something that we need to really start opening up more and more conversation about so thank you for doing the work that you do and bringing that to light and to the world, because I feel like that's definitely something that we can hide away from very easily if we don't turn and face it.

Speaker 3: 49:18

Yeah, for sure, appreciate it, Thank you.

Speaker 1: 49:20

Finally, natalie, how can everyone find you? You just mentioned your Instagram page, yeah, where can everyone find you?

Speaker 3: 49:28

Yeah, same on Facebook Tell your Daughters or Tell your Daughters. Au on Facebook Websites is Tell your Daughters and it's under the umbrella of Tell your Daughters, but it's applicable to boys and sons as well, and if anyone wants to email me, if anything comes up, slide into my DMs or just email, just hello at tellyourdaughterscomau. I love having conversation or DM email or DM conversations. Yeah, I'm open to any chats.

Speaker 1: 49:56

Amazing. It's been a wonderful conversation. We've thoroughly enjoyed it because it's all so pertinent and relevant to us, of course, but I'm sure that the listeners just got so much from that and we did so. I'm absolutely sure that they did so. We'll link some of those books into the show notes for some of those resources and, of course, how they can get in touch with you.

Speaker 3: 50:17

So thank you from the bottom of our hearts. Oh, thank you so much. I really enjoyed it, thank you you're welcome.