Thrive Again - Your relationship podcast

Chase and Retreat: The Pursuer Withdrawer Dance

• Michael & Amy • Season 1 • Episode 35

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Could your relationship dynamics be silently sabotaging your connection? We unpack the demand-withdraw pattern that subtly affects nearly 80% of relationships, as identified by Christensen and Heavey. Learn how this pervasive pattern, also known as the pursuer-withdrawer dynamic, can turn a thriving relationship into a distressed one. We promise you'll gain insights into emotional focus therapy and the significant role of attachment theory in nurturing deeper, more meaningful connections. 

Explore the roles of "withdrawers" and "pursuers" shaped by childhood experiences and societal norms. Discover why men often withdraw and women pursue, and how these roles create familiar yet frustrating patterns in adult relationships. By recognizing these dynamics and working towards secure attachments, couples can transform internal wounds into growth opportunities. This episode is your guide to understanding and healing the unseen forces at play in your relationship.

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Speaker 1:

1, 2, 3, 4 couples and singles who want to unlock their relationship potential and reconnect on a deeper, more meaningful soul level. We share insights, client breakthroughs and personal stories to help move your relationship from surviving to thriving.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to another episode of Thrive Again, your relationship podcast. We have Amy here and myself, and we're very excited to share something with you today that's really prevalent in a lot of relationships right now. How are you, amy?

Speaker 1:

I'm very good, thank you, yeah, enjoying this slightly warmer weather. It's not been so freezing cold, but yeah, I feel excited.

Speaker 2:

We've had a pretty good week and, uh, we're pumped for another one yeah, yeah, we've we've been just doing a lot more up leveling in our, I guess, our work and in the relationship space and and just working with emotions and and um, yeah, they're just in line with a therapy that we are using and, yeah, it's basically called emotional focus therapy and, yeah, we've just been doing a lot of intentional work in that space, which has been wonderful to put into practice with our clients this week.

Speaker 2:

So, looking forward to sharing that with many more of our clients, but also with you, and actually that's something that we really want to dive into a bit today. And, yeah, we want to talk a little bit about a dynamic that exists in actually 80% of relationships, or around about 80%. There was some research done by Christensen and Heavey back in 1990 which identified this particular dynamic, which is the demand-withdraw pattern, or you could call it the pursuer-withdrawer pattern, and this is one of the most common interaction patterns in distressed relationships. So we're going to pull that apart today and actually maybe even define what that is, and maybe we can start with that.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think you guys will really enjoy this episode because you'll probably be able to relate to it. I know that when we started diving into this, we could certainly relate to the dynamic in our relationship and when it plays out into this. We could certainly relate to the dynamic in our relationship and when it plays out, because, ultimately, healthy, secure relationships can understand this dynamic and actually start to notice when these patterns are happening, these cycles are happening, to help them to kind of come back to ground zero again and not get caught in that cycle of well, I guess, like you said, the pursuer, the withdrawer. You know that pattern that happens in many, many relationships. So, yeah, it's pretty interesting and it's fun for us because we love this stuff. We are pretty passionate about learning more about the human relationships and why they're so important to understand for the benefit of the couple, but also the bigger picture, of the benefit of, I guess, humanity in lots of ways.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so we're going to be talking a little bit about attachment theory and basically, for those of you who don't really have an understanding of attachment theory, for us as human beings, socially we are geared towards connecting with another human being in order to feel safe and secure. And so in a in an age where we're taught and we're pushed to become more independent and actually society really applauds independence and isolation and can you manage on your own, this actually goes in direct conflict with biologically who we are as human beings and and so I think it's important to recognize that we should need to actually lean in and receive comfort from other human beings, and that can be really tricky, especially for someone who is an avoider or a withdrawer generally in their life, and I have some aspects of that in myself. So a secure relationship in terms of attachment, right, when we're talking about attachment to other human beings generally, we've. We're secure when we've received generally all of our needs as a child, right, they were generally met. When we cried, we were attended to.

Speaker 2:

You know, when we're emotionally upset, one or both of our parents or caregivers were able to provide that comfort, that reassurance and maybe that listening ear to kind of lean on, whereas for someone on the opposite end of the spectrum, maybe they didn't receive that and they, their needs weren't met to the level that they needed to, and maybe, even worse still, they were neglected or abandoned or left alone. And um, and sometimes this teaches us things. It teaches us to adapt and strategize, even as as kids as young as six months old, where we're geared towards survival, so we are just looking to find safety and security, and so sometimes, if we see that our caregivers aren't reliant, then we start to self-resource and we can. We just think that our emotional needs are not really important. So I need to, kind of you, find harmony within myself and not rely on anybody else, and sometimes that can lead to you know, this strategy that we develop right where we just withdraw.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, it's pretty complex, isn't it really? But when you look at it from an outside view, you can start to get it a little bit clearer and understand how this plays out for couples and relationships now in everyday life. And it's such a human instinct to want to feel safe and secure. It's it's how we've evolved right and it's how we've got to be where we are, because we've so focused and important on feeling that safety and security.

Speaker 1:

So this young baby, you know, perceives a threat or an issue as they're growing up, is going to create these adaptations and it's a natural thing. So it's not that there's something wrong with you or that there needs to be fixed or you know you've got a condition. It's more just understanding this in a relationship. So then we can have this secure foundation that we're always kind of seeking unconsciously, which sometimes plays out in our behaviors to the negative way, and people can see it like like, for example, for the pursuer it can be seen as nagging or go over the top or, you know not, not able to, um, find their need, I guess, from their couple.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, yeah, and and when you think about a secure base, what we're talking about is security in knowing that I'm going to be here with my partner and my partner is going to provide that safety and security with me.

Speaker 2:

So I feel comfortable, I have a secure, grounded base, knowing that when I come home I'm not going to be walking on eggshells, I'm going to be able to healthily speak up about the things that I need and that I want, not necessarily only in the relationship, but just in myself, and not feel threatened by what's going to happen, like the repercussions of bringing that up. And so what we're talking about here is having a relationship where you feel like there was a great example of how to, how to paint this with a zipline, right, so you think about the. You know when you're going on a zipline, let's imagine you're up high in the mountains and you're about to to, to go from one side of the valley to the other and you you've got like a hundred meters of just. You know it looks like like death below, basically, but you're able to explore and you know experience that aliveness by knowing that this harness that I'm in is safe and secure and the wire above your head and the wire above your head.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it looks like a nice thick wire, and I'm happy that they've checked it and they check it every day. So that gives me the ability to experience expandedness, adventure, openness and flexibility if I have that grounded support in my partner and in my home. But for many couples it's not what it's not, it's not what's happening right. We don't have that grounded base. Sometimes we come home and we don't know what it's going to be like, or maybe we feel, you know, really anxious, that our partner actually doesn't even see us and doesn't even, kind of, you know, recognize that we exist, and so that gets me to speak louder. And then chase, chase, and then that turns into conflict, and then they depart and you're left chasing, and so this is the pursuer-withdrawer type dynamic that we're going to speak a little bit about today.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I love it because we see it in our work that we do with couples and once we highlight it to the couple we could, they can see it too and they're like, oh, this is why I'm needing all of this. And then often they look at their family history and often they look at their childhood and then they've realized that they've done this all their life and it's a coping or a or a strategy that they've used we've called it an attachment strategy that they've been able to adopt. So, yeah, yeah, it's normal, it's okay, there's nothing wrong with you. It's actually amazing that you've created that strategy.

Speaker 1:

But in a relationship it can get really quite unhealthy and if it's not managed correctly or looked after or nurtured, then it can feel really uncomfortable for those couples. In that dynamic right, the pursuer is always chasing, wanting answers, needing resolutions, needing to feel that they can feel secure from their partner being there. But then often, on the other hand, like Michael said, 80% of relationships the withdrawer that's too much. Like back off, like leave me alone, like you're in my face, I just need space. I can't manage all of these emotions that you're kind of heading at me with all the time. So this dance between the pursuer and the withdrawer. It can become, particularly if it's repeated over time, it can become really stressful and it can come, it can cause complete shutdowns. It can can cause arguments, continual cycles of this pattern. And how do I meet you? What do I? What can I give you to, to soothe you, to satisfy you and, and, to be honest, a lot of the people, if they're a pursuer, they don't know themselves.

Speaker 1:

They don't even know the reason why they're doing this.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, if this might be you, then then there's uh, definitely help and different ways you can work around it so let's start with the pursuer and maybe breaking down how the pursuer became a pursuer in the first place and a pursuer in attachment theory can sometimes be also called the anxiously attached right, and I don't really like that term because it sounds, you know, very, I don't know, pathological diagnosis type wording, but um.

Speaker 2:

But basically how that would um would come about is in a zoomed out view or a zoomed out lens. The pursuer, as a child, generally found that their parents, or they perceive their parents, to be inconsistent in some way. So they they look towards their parents for comfort, right, they look towards their parents for security. But maybe there wasn't that consistency that they needed, and so they developed a strategy where they would try to ascertain information and try to see if we can seek connection through closeness and communication and that will give me comfort, and so that reassurance is the thing often that a pursuer really needs. So that's typically how it starts that strategy. And then later in life, when you get into a relationship, these are the people that might be called needy.

Speaker 2:

These are the people that might be called, you know, know, a bit overreactive and highly strung maybe yeah, and and just like the, you know the partner might be experiencing whoa, you're too much, you know you're, you're in my face and I just need some space. And so just understanding that the emotional experience underneath that is that when the partner withdraws, that actually heightens and amplifies their pursuit. So it heightens their default mechanism to want to chase more.

Speaker 1:

Safety and security, right. So that's just like an alarm Beep, beep, beep. I need more. I need more.

Speaker 1:

So yeah they're on the chase. Yeah, they want those answers, they want that confirmation that they're going to be okay, the reassurance that you're not going to leave me alone or abandon me. And you can see this like as a child, right, you can imagine that child creating that pattern as well. So, yeah, but, like we said, it's pretty exhausting for the withdrawer. So tell us a bit about what are some of the characteristics of a withdrawer, maybe.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, okay. So yeah, sometimes the withdrawer can actually be tarnished with an unfair brush, right, and the anxious or the pursuer might see that as in they don't care, like they're not invested in the relationship, and then they're not really kind of communicating to me and it's like whenever we want to solve something and it gets a bit heightened, you just run away. But, truthfully, how this has actually come about and it is another strategy, right, we need to remember these are strategies. So the withdrawer actually probably had parents or caregivers that really couldn't provide the emotional support that that child needed. So they might have been there physically but they weren't there emotionally to really be with them and to validate their experience and to see if they can kind of find some understanding in their experience.

Speaker 2:

You imagine, like a child coming home from prep and they said oh, this, um, I'm really sad today. You know, I'm um come home because I had a. I had a boy was pushing me at school and dad sort of responds with ah, you'll be right, mate, you know, just brush it off, um, or yeah, you just need to kind of hit him back. But what's happened there is is dad's actually just really invalidated the child in that first instance. And yes, he's been trying to find a solution possibly for that child, but he wasn't really emotionally understood in those moments. So if that happens over and over and over again, then that child develops a belief that actually I can't rely on anybody outside of myself.

Speaker 1:

So therefore my emotions aren't important.

Speaker 2:

That's right, and and so what happens when we start to self-resource and we start to kind of be independent and, because our emotions don't matter, quote unquote in our in our mind and in our psyche, we actually don't really understand our emotions that much either. So we don't allow ourselves to experience the real lows and we don't allow ourselves to experience the real highs. So these are the people that are generally, like, really well balanced in terms of high stress situations. They're the ones that are really calm. In terms of high stress situations, they're the ones that are really calm. They're the ones that are probably in a role as a nurse or a surgeon or something like that right, or in emergency care, because they can keep themselves level-headed.

Speaker 2:

So let's just say that the withdrawer is in conflict with their pursuer partner. Well, in order for the withdrawer to feel more secure and more grounded, they actually need to have some distance or some space, and that's going to help them to regulate themselves. But on top of that, what this does is it also gives them kind of the sometimes protecting the relationship, because they perceive that conflict is, is the enemy. And when conflict happens, then they're scared, like the withdrawer is often scared that. Well, what if this escalates to something even bigger? Or what if I explode? Right now, I just need to get some distance, and so it's not necessarily that I don't care, is it?

Speaker 1:

no, no, there's definitely don't care. But what? What the tricky thing is is the pursuer sorry, is the avoid, the avoider or the withdrawer actually can't understand what the pursuer is experiencing because it's so far away from their experience. They completely dismiss the potential of what the pursuer is actually needing from them at that moment because it just is too much for the withdrawer. They've got no comprehension because they've shut down those emotions for so many years. So this is why it gets so tricky, because one can't understand the other and the other can't understand the other. So it gets a big messy muddle of needs that aren't being met and safety that's not feeling secure. And yeah, if this cycles round and round and round, then it's just a dynamic that gets really exhausting for some relationships.

Speaker 2:

Right, and what we find is that the pursuer is the one that looks for the relationship coaching. The pursuer is the one that looks for the solutions to the relationship problems because they're desperate. They're desperate to mend the unavailability that they're experiencing, and so for a withdrawer to actually confront this is a big deal. It's a big deal.

Speaker 1:

We always love it, don't we? When we see couples come into our office and we know how hard it is for the withdrawer to actually get even to that place. So we celebrate them every time they come in, because we're like we know how hard it is for you, because, yes, we see that you understand that the relationship's important, but you just can't seem to understand your partner. You know you do care about the relationship, you care about her, you know each other, but it's just very challenging for you to even try to see it any other way.

Speaker 2:

Because you're defiantly self-reliant.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2:

You know, you're just so self-reliant and think that like they find it hard to kind of look for help too.

Speaker 1:

I wonder why that dynamic is so common that you know 80% of couples are like that.

Speaker 2:

I've never really Well, actually the pursuer is typically the female and the withdrawer is typically the male. That's statistically speaking. So you think about society and how we're moulded, you know. So you think about society and how we're molded, you know, through society and like, typically a guy is taught to be self-reliant, you know, he's taught to kind of be the island in a way.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, but I get that. But why are they attracted to each other?

Speaker 2:

Sure, yeah. So there is an unconscious thing at play here and I think we can get into that. You know maybe in another episode, modalities that speak about that your unconscious mind is continuously searching for somebody that feels familiar to what your experience was with one or both of your caregivers. So think about your partner for a moment. If you're with someone, and just think about if they have some sort of familiarity when you first met them, it just helps you to feel comfortable around them, and that comfort is normally because there's something familiar from your childhood. And that could be chaos, right. Maybe they're really kind of loud, maybe they're really dismissive. They could be a negative trait that you're attracted to unconsciously.

Speaker 1:

But the reason that we have this weird paradox is so that once you've got that familiarity with them, then your unconscious mind can use them as a means to heal your internal wounds that have come from your upbringing yeah, because I can see it like with couples that we work with, that you can see that the the pursuer kind of wants more of what the withdrawer has and the withdrawer kind of unconsciously wants more of what the pursuer has, so that they're brought together in this union to help them understand, um, what each other needs to create a secure bond. Right, and and this is the magic and the beautiful part of a relationship is when we can actually we love seeing this in in our sessions when couples can understand that the one thing that they need is so accessible and so easy to give their partners to create this secure bond, to have this relationship that is safe ultimately, and they're both understood with what they're deeply needing.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah, absolutely so. It's about re-establishing that secure base. You know, and that's really what this is about, and that's what we help couples with. We help them to establish a secure base between the two of them. Sometimes we'll talk about this as being the relationship bubble, the third entity. You know, you've got myself michael, you've got amy and then you've got the third entity, which is the relationship bubble. This is the secure base. If that's not secure, then you may be more likely to cycle in conflict because you're not getting your needs met. And so you'll look at this bubble or to your partner and you'll just look to extract. And you know, it's just this siphoning, siphoning process that just keeps taking, taking, taking. But we get to this point, a few years down the track, where we don't even know how our cycle is. We don't even, we can't even see how we start our conflicts anymore.

Speaker 1:

That's why I think, like Michael said at the beginning of the podcast, that we've been doing some additional training in this emotional focus therapy and this is such a great strategy for breaking these cycles these cycles of the pursue or withdraw.

Speaker 1:

Or some couples are withdraw, withdraw, other couples are pursue, pursue and. And that dynamic we help with too right, but we're just talking about the most common one that we see, so don't get me wrong, there are other dynamics, it's not just this one only, but, um, this emotionally focused therapy can really get the cycle clear. And seeing, ah, the withdrawer just needs some space and time, the pursuer just needs a little bit more reassurance. So how else does, I guess, can we, help couples to get this secure base that you're mentioning? What are some other ways that we help?

Speaker 2:

or they can get help. Yeah, yeah, we just need to sometimes pause, you know, and kind of sit back and see how, how we're actually contributing to this based on our wiring and as a withdrawer, what would naturally happen when you start to feel heightened and feel the the conflict is is getting louder and louder. And you've got this. You know your partner just coming at you and coming at you is actually to see if you can ground your nervous system in those moments to a level where you can just lean in a touch rather than lean away or shut down or disappear. So this is going against the grain of your wiring. So we're not saying this is easy and it does take some work. It really does.

Speaker 2:

And for the pursuer, like they're going to inherently desire to just give me the answer, give me the thing that I need. I want your connection. I want you to communicate to me and I'm going to keep getting louder and louder as a normal default. I want you to communicate to me and I'm going to keep getting louder and louder as a normal default. But can you lean back just slightly? Because if you can lean back, then you allow your partner, who is the withdrawer, to breathe, to not be suffocated, to not be so overwhelmed with your presence, and so it's not one person or the other who's wrong. Both need to contribute in this space and have some self-awareness about your own contribution to this absolutely, and I think it's good to mention that.

Speaker 1:

Sue johnson um, who does emotional focus therapy. She also has a great little um acronym. It's it's um, are you there for me? And and um the a for the r are you there? For me is a is are you accessible? So, like, do I matter? The the r is are you responsive to my needs and this can go both ways right and the the e is are you engaged with me? So that's a really good kind of acronym that we can reflect on and just check. In a secure relationship should you should be accessible, responsive and engaged, and if you're those things, then you'll find that that the relationship will start to take a really great turn and be able to kind of create that security in that base. So just because you've you've noticed that this pattern or this cycle happens, doesn't mean you have to stay in it. Right, there is ways out and and sometimes just diving into those emotions that are causing you to become the withdrawer or the pursuer and highlighting them and looking at that little emotion there, it can.

Speaker 2:

It can definitely help to lighten the load um of this weight of this cycle that you guys are stuck in and really deeply understand each other yeah, well said, and I think one of the fastest ways to healing the relationship and breaking the cycle is, when your partner has something to say and maybe they're upset about something, just sit and validate and really be there for them before you bring up your own needs. If you can do that, then already you're well on the way to healing the relationship. But I tell you what, like when you've operated a certain way over many, many years in your relationship, that's not easy, because if you're bickering at me that I'm not, you know, tidying up my shed continuously, continuously, continuously, and like what I experience is I'm not enough for you and maybe as a withdrawer, I will end up just going, I will bugger this and I'll just disappear, and for the pursuer, they'll get louder and louder. But really, what is this about? Like?

Speaker 2:

Is this about the shed and it being tidy, not being tidy, or is it something along the lines of like I don't feel like I matter to you right now? I want you to pay attention to me. Can't you see me, the real me? And they're normally the bigger themes that exist, and it's not about the shit at all. It's not about the, you know, the little things and the behaviors. It's actually what's really going on deeply in this relationship that matters. Yeah, I think that's uh, given everyone.

Speaker 1:

Hopefully the listeners have got a bit more of an idea.

Speaker 1:

And, and I encourage you guys to if you don't already recognize your cycle of those moments because I think that, to be honest, let's unless you're really disconnected and living your own lives under the same roof, which we hope you're not but you'll find that you do cycle through some type of conflict and some type of behavioral pattern.

Speaker 1:

So if you can start to bring awareness to that notice oh, am I, am I a withdrawer, or am I the pursuer, or am I actually feeling pretty safe and secure, which you can be right. So there's not like you have to have one of these, but if you're listening to this podcast, I encourage you to kind of just reflect on that and um, and see if this dynamic does play out and, like michael said, you can take the first step of, you know, communication, taking a step back, being more mindful, but then also obviously, seeking some sort of support to break that cycle, because it's not normal. You know you might feel like it's normal because you've done it for so long, but it's actually. I guess it's normal, but it's not normal. You know you might feel like it's normal because you've done it for so long, but it's actually I guess it's normal, but it's not healthy, I should say.

Speaker 1:

I should reword that it's not healthy for a relationship to sustain that type of pattern, because often what we see is it gets to the point where it's just too much. I'm sick of it, I'm done. I can't do this anymore.

Speaker 2:

So don't let it get to that point. Yeah, words of wisdom. Yeah, so wise I am.

Speaker 1:

Oh, that's why I hang out with you. Thank you so much for listening and I hope you got something out of that. And, um, yeah, we would love, um for you guys to either leave a review or send us a message.

Speaker 2:

Send us a message if you're a pursuer, or if you're a withdrawer I'd love to love to hear from our audience and I love how you you stay in touch with us and yeah just feel free, just send us a message on Instagram or on Facebook and just let us know how this is kind of really tricky for you right now.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, thank you so much for being an amazing audience and have a wonderful rest of your day. Thanks, guys.