Thrive Again - Your relationship podcast

From Taboo to Connection: Breaking Barriers In Sexual Communication with Laura Lee

• Michael & Amy • Season 1 • Episode 50

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Join us in a thought-provoking conversation with Laura, an esteemed psychologist and sexologist, as we probe into the often-overlooked interplay between psychological well-being and sexual health. This episode confronts the stigma that surrounds discussions of intimacy and sexuality while exploring effective communication techniques to foster deeper connections in romantic relationships. Laura shares invaluable insights from her extensive experience, highlighting how societal norms and personal scripts shape our perceptions of sex, often creating barriers to genuine communication.

Throughout the episode, we delve into the complexity of sexual scripts, revealing how ingrained beliefs can hinder authenticity in relationships. Laura provides practical guidance on how to initiate difficult conversations about sexual desires and boundaries, emphasising the importance of establishing emotional safety between partners. This conversation isn’t just theoretical; it equips listeners with actionable tools like the Yes, No, Maybe list to explore preferences and enhance intimacy in a fun, structured way.

Discover how normalising discussions about sex can alleviate feelings of shame and fear, enabling partners to foster a more fulfilling and pleasurable sexual relationship. The conversation inspires listeners to rethink their own narratives around sex and intimacy, promoting a healthy dialogue that continues to evolve over time. Don’t miss this rich discussion filled with valuable takeaways on navigating the intricacies of intimacy in a fresh, insightful manner. Remember to explore Laura’s resources for more tools on enhancing sexual communication in your life!

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Speaker 1:

1, 2, 3, 4 couples and singles who want to unlock their relationship potential and reconnect on a deeper, more meaningful soul level. We share insights, client breakthroughs and personal stories to help move your relationship from surviving to thriving.

Speaker 2:

Today we have an incredible guest joining us Laura. A psychologist, a sexologist, with over 17 years of experience helping individuals navigate the complexities of mind, emotions and intimacy. She's the director of Blue Space Psychology. She works at the intersection of mental health and sexual well-being, offering therapy, education and professional training to those looking to deepen their understanding of themselves and their relationships. Laura's insights aren't just from the therapy room. Her research has been published in the Journal of Positive Sexuality, where she explored the powerful link between communication and sexual desire. She's a sought-after speaker, trainer and consultant, known for a warm, authentic approach that makes even the most complex topics feel accessible. So get ready for a conversation that's real, insightful and sure to expand the way you think about intimacy and connection. Laura Lee, welcome to the podcast. It's so nice to have you on our show and I wanted to maybe ask you, or start with asking you how did you get into the world of psychology and sexology, of all things?

Speaker 3:

Thank you so much for having me. Yeah, sexology of all things. Well, psychology I got into right out of high school. I really got into it because I was always kind of that person in high school that was like really nosy. I just loved people's stories and what was going on and I always wanted to help. I was that person like bringing my friends home and saying to my mum you know, this person's had a fight with their parents, they're gonna stay with us for the night and all that kind of stuff. I was always doing that kind of stuff. So I knew I wanted to go into a helping profession and I've always been so fascinated by people's stories. So that was many years ago. So I've been a psychologist now for 17 years.

Speaker 3:

My goodness and I got into sexology because a lot of my clients were in my clinical practice, were talking to me about their relationships and about sex and I realized a couple of things was that were happening in the room. So I was really picking up on my clients awkwardness in bringing up sex, like is this allowed? Is this a welcome topic? And I was also picking up on my own kind of a little bit of awkwardness but also a bit of like I'm not equipped to support here, because sex was I don't even remember it being mentioned in my psych degree at all. And then the more I started talking to other health care providers, the more I realized that that was a really common experience experience. I was talking to other therapists, even doctors, who were saying I will never forget a GP telling me that in their medical training sex was one lecture or one afternoon in their entire medical degree and that just frightened me.

Speaker 3:

So I realized there were like some pretty big barriers to people talking about sexuality and sexual health concerns and we had clients feeling anxious to bring it up. We had healthcare providers feeling anxious to also bring it up but also actively avoiding it because they didn't know what to do if it did come up. So that got me really curious because I knew I wanted to support clients with regards to their sexuality and sexual health. So I went back and did a master's a few years ago in sexual and reproductive health and psychosexual therapy, and I finished that only a couple of years ago, in 2023, and discovered this like this beautiful intersection of like mental health and sex and relationships, and that that's where I love to work. So that's what I do now, and I'm in the business of helping people to really embrace and enjoy their sexuality. So I go and talk about it to anyone who listen, in the hopes that I can start to kind of destigmatize that conversation and normalize the topic of sex a bit.

Speaker 1:

That's so amazing and I love how you've just noticed where the area was lacking for you in your work and in the in the you know in the field, and you went to explore that deeper and helped, helped people in that. I think that's really cool.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I'm interested in a couple of things that come up for me as you were speaking. That was firstly, the stigma that you spoke about and the avoidance that perhaps is apparent and really palpable in mainstream medicine. Why do you think we're like this as a human race, like what's going on here?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it's so interesting, isn't it, that all the work that we're doing and it would be easy to think that we've, you know, come a long way or that it's not as taboo. But really, at the end of the day, this is still a very sex-negative culture. A lot of that has some old kind of stuff that I won't get into old, probably religious stuff, colonialism stuff but this is still a really present issue for people, people I think that was what shocked me so much when I was prompted to go back and do study was I had thought even and I had even in my line of work. I had thought oh, people are talking about this more, like people are talking about it more with their health care providers, parents are talking about it more, schools are talking about it more.

Speaker 3:

But I I quickly realised things hadn't shifted that much from when I was in high school, and I certainly have memories in my own upbringing of being actively discouraged from talking about sex by my parents. I certainly don't remember much in the way of sex education at high school and I think the only thing that has shifted since I was in high school is that there's more misinformation out there, like with the internet. I think I had made them. I had foolishly thought sexual health literacy would be greater because there's more information, but there's just more bad information. So instead we've just got people overwhelmed and confused and really struggling to access the healthcare that they need, and you've got healthcare providers who never, never got this training in the first place and are just trying to do the best they can.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it becomes guesswork right Totally. And I also witness and because I do a lot of work with men is that men, they generally can only go off what they think is the right thing to do, and if their parents or their teachers or healthcare practitioners are not giving them any advice around this whole topic, then where are they learning it from? And of course, pornography plays a big part in this right, because if that's all that you see, and then your mates are the same, and then you talk about it in that kind of context, then all of a sudden it becomes this kind of bubble of. This is how you do it, this is how you make love to a woman, and I really think you just spoke about misinformation, and I think that that is a massive part of this too.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, you know, the other piece to this, the thing I really uncovered for myself in my own studies, was the power of stories, these sexual scripts that we all have running in the background, which are the kind of internalised ideas that we've, you know, maybe grown up with.

Speaker 3:

We've got from our family of origin, from our sociocultural context, from media, and we've got from our family of origin, from our sociocultural context, from media, and we've got these. We've all, all of us have got these scripts running in the background that we've internalized as truths, and I didn't even know what mine were until I went back and really started doing this kind of study, which, as I said, was only a few years ago. But I hear some really common scripts amongst my clients, scripts that I resonate with, things about gender roles, as you were just talking about. Things like sex is something that you perform. Men want sex more than women. Sex is over when the person with the penis ejaculates, like these are really common scripts that people have internalised and will have running in the background with regards to how they approach sex, without even kind of being consciously aware of.

Speaker 2:

So true, it's like programming or something isn't it yes? These scripts, absolutely, as you're saying that I'm noticing my stories, that's what I saw and where I get that from.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, that's so interesting yeah absolutely, and then like how does that show up for how we then would go and engage in relationships and in dating and in sexual relationships?

Speaker 2:

like if we have those beliefs, they're going to show up subconsciously in terms of how we interact and engage sexually as well and communicate about sex and you spoke about performance and and isn't that an interesting one in terms of, like, if, if you have this story or this script that it's a performance type thing, how's that going to affect the interaction with your partner? Can you explain, like maybe, what your thoughts are on that and how that can actually yeah, impact?

Speaker 3:

yeah, so when something becomes performance based, it then becomes something that we can like, achieve or not achieve. We can kind of pass, fail or do it well or not well. And this occurs also in a really like capitalist context as well, which loves us to be. Capitalism loves us to, of course, be concerned that we've got a problem to solve so that we go and buy solutions. So people are. Now, if you take all of that and apply it to sex, people are increasingly concerned that they are not having enough sex, that the sex is not hot enough or creative enough or enough novelty or enough whatever it is. So it becomes this like viewing sex through the lens of performance becomes um, achievement based. It becomes a source of anxiety because now it's something I'm good about it rather than something I experience, um, and it also becomes a more disconnected experience, because now I'm observing myself as a performer rather than experiencing pleasure.

Speaker 1:

Spot on. Yeah, laura, I'm busting to ask you this question because I'm so curious to know. No, I'm actually curious to understand more about this paper that you've just recently got authored or you authored. And I'd love you to share. I guess, yeah, where this came from, what inspired this and what this paper is about, if you can tell us about it?

Speaker 3:

Yeah, of course I would love to. So, uh, the paper that I had published was about the impact of sexual communication and it was particularly the impact of sexual communication on our enjoyment of sex. So, and how satisfied we are with the sex we're having and how much we want the sex we're having, because I felt, like anecdotally, it seems really obvious that sexual communication is a good thing and I don't think you have to like look very far to hear people kind of banging about that, that it's really good to talk about sex. But I didn't feel like people could confidently articulate what sexual communication even was. And also, I felt really curious about like yeah, okay, it's a good thing, but how, like how is it making a difference? If I'm communicating about sex effectively? Actually, how is it making a difference? So that got me really curious.

Speaker 3:

And around the same time that I started writing this paper, I also started the relationship that I'm in now, which is highly communicative and we talk about sex in some capacity. We talk about our sexual connection every day, and I think that shocks people, probably because they imagine that it's like a heavy turning the tally off, looking each other in the eye kind of chat. It's's not at all, but we do intentionally visit the sexual part of our relationship every day, deliberately. So and that was a choice. That was a choice we made early on to nurture that part of our relationship. So all of those things kind of happened at the same time and got me super curious about this topic. So that was why I went and researched what the science tells us about exactly how sexual communication can benefit our sexual relationships and what we can do to have really great sexual communication thank you amazing.

Speaker 1:

I love the curiosity. What led you down that path and you? Know your own experience your work your, yeah, and putting it all into that paper. So I really, though, I guess I want to understand what. What are you meaning by sexual communication? And you know your own experience, your work, yeah, and putting it all into that paper. So I really, though I guess I want to understand what are you meaning by sexual communication? What is that? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3:

So sexual communication is the many verbal and nonverbal ways within which we communicate our sexual desires, preferences, boundaries and limits. Right, and I'm very careful to say verbal and non-verbal ways because, as I said before, when I said my partner and I've communicated in some way like this every day, some of that is non-verbal. Right, we communicate through touch, through expression of pleasure, through flirtatious or playful engagement, and then there are, of course, nonverbal communications that we exchange during sexual interactions. But actually I'm talking very little about the communication that occurs during sexual interaction. The really important communication stuff occurs around it, outside of the bedroom, right?

Speaker 3:

The other component, a key component of sexual communication, is something we call sexual self-disclosure, which is that willingness to share my own experiences, boundaries, feelings, desires, limits, all those kinds of things, and to have them received with warmth, understanding, acceptance, compassion, those kinds of things and then being able to do the same in return. So this component between couples of sexual self-disclosure and that being, you know, offered and received is one of the primary components that couples, in the studies I looked at, really, really had to have to rate their sexual communication highly. There had to be a high degree of sexual self-disclosure and a high degree of safety and trust. The reason that's so important.

Speaker 3:

The thing that makes sexual communication so distinct and so difficult for us is how high stakes it feels to people. Talking about sex feels super risky to people. People are afraid of being judged, abandoned, rejected, shut down, hurt, hurting someone they care about. Like it feels super high stakes and I can really understand why people would avoid it as a result because it feels really risky. So the people in the relationship have to do a lot of work in the relationship to cultivate a context within which it feels safe to talk about sex and that's why it's a really distinct skill set from general communication or non-sexual communication. It requires that extra degree of emotional availability and safety that couples who might communicate effectively about other topics might not necessarily be able to bring to this topic.

Speaker 1:

It's a whole other thing. Right Like it's interesting, because obviously we work with clients and couples with regular communication. You know validation and that kind of stuff, but this is a whole other I guess learning or the skill set that many couples probably haven't really broached because of all of those things that you brought up shame, you know, judgment, fear, let's not go there. That's kind of taboo to talk about. So, yeah, so that's interesting that you're bringing this to light and how important it is for a healthy relationship to not only have just your regular communication working well, but this sexual communication is a whole nother area to explore in your relationship, to improve and to grow and to understand. And I think even you know for us, I'm sure, there's things that we're still learning and getting better at in that space, because you're right that the history, the programming, the oh gosh, we don't talk about sex, you know all of that stuff really impacts and debilitates you from voicing those, those words.

Speaker 3:

You know it's yeah absolutely that word shame showed up a lot in my research because there is shame stuff that's close to sex for so many of us. So shame are those. When I use that word shame, I'm really like I get a visual of like a really tender spot, you know, like the most painful kind of bruise that when it is touched, when you, you know, brush up against it, when it is pushed, it is so deeply painful, like shame of shame, of those parts of ourselves where we feel, you know, defective or not good enough or broken in some way, and when that stuff is is activated it's incredibly painful and it can be really distressing for people. So I guess you can start to kind of imagine how all of this might come together in a conversation about sex in our very sex-negative culture where no one's taught us how to talk about sex In fact maybe it's actively discouraged. And then we're worrying about being judged, rejected, all of those kinds of things, and we've maybe got shame stuff attached to this and we're sitting in the room with someone else who's got all their stuff too and trying to have a conversation that we've potentially not really ever had before, like it is a learned skill plus. You're trying to regulate yourself through all of that.

Speaker 3:

I really have an enormous amount of empathy and compassion for how, how hard that can be. Uh, and I like I I talk a good game now, like I know I'm saying I talk about sex every day now but, like as I said, my studies are pretty recent. This is this is new for me too. I spent the vast majority of my adult life having sex, but not talking about the sex I was having.

Speaker 2:

Absolutely so I really I don't just have empathy for it, it has been me for most of my adult life, so I really get it yeah, which just adds potency to your message, because you're a human, you're not just someone who's done a course and you offer a protocol, like you know. It's lived experience. So I do really I appreciate that the human element to that as well. Yeah, and I think I was just thinking about safety, I guess, and how maybe, like we really need to kind of feel safe in order to explore this topic, and so does it mean? So, like, if a couple's going to dive into this, does it mean that they would have had to have some level of communication already established between the two of them when they feel safe enough to then step into this topic?

Speaker 3:

Is that something?

Speaker 2:

that really needs to be seen first or been felt yeah.

Speaker 3:

The research I looked at said that people do need some baseline level of safety and connectivity established to be able to talk about sex. But I want to be really clear that that could. First, depending on who you are, you could be having sex with someone that you met today and still have established enough connection and safety to feel like this person cares about my experience, you know, uh, like I'm, I'm going to be. They're demonstrating that I'm safe to ask the things. I'm safe to assert my boundaries like they. They seem to care that I have a good time as well. All of that kind of stuff. You can. You can assess that in many different ways in many different relationships. So this isn't something that needs to necessarily be built over days, weeks, months, years. There are lots of ways in which we can establish safety and connectivity with someone. But I did want to say too, when you said sort of said like, dive into this.

Speaker 3:

I am really kind of encouraging of people to consider the conversation about sex as a really ongoing, fluid one, because our own sexuality changes over time as well, all the time.

Speaker 3:

Something I liked this morning I might not feel like tonight, like, let alone big life changes, so, um, it's changing all the time. So I really like to let people know that sexual communication is not a sitting down TV off, looking at each other, tabling all that issue, solving all our problems. That's not. That's, that's not it and that is not how I'd encourage people to dive into it the first time. And in fact, personally that would be my worst nightmare. If my partner came into me and said, can you like turn the TV off and look at me? And I want to talk about our sex life, I want to talk about the sex we're having. I'd be like, oh, and I want to talk about our sex life, I want to talk about the sex we're having. I'd be like, oh, my God, I'd be so flooded in that moment. So the first conversation if you're with someone who you've never really talked about sex before, the first conversation is just an assessment of like willingness really.

Speaker 3:

It's just a hey. I listened to this podcast and it got me thinking about the fact we don't really talk about this anymore, or we've never really talked about it, and I want us to be great like lovers to each other and have a great time together. I care about our sexuality. Do you think it would be all right if we talked about it more? Are you up for that? And if they say yes, then you say great, we'll make sure we do that. Like that's it. That can be it, and you've opened that door and you can start that dialogue. You can start sharing resources. You can start sending a flirty text, maybe even a spicy text, like you can start to open that door. But the first conversation is not a hey. I need to tell you I've been like faking every orgasm since we got together.

Speaker 1:

Like that is not where we start yeah yeah yeah, I love that and just bringing it into the regular routine, the normality of talking about this topic. It's the same thing, I, I guess, in life. The more you do it and get comfortable with it, the easier it becomes. You know, like those sorts of topics it's not such an awkward. You get flooded or you get, you know, you shut down, you can't think straight, all of those sorts of things that happens when we're confronted sometimes with topics we don't like.

Speaker 3:

I totally agree.

Speaker 2:

And yeah, just the way that you framed that, it felt warm to me. It felt like, oh cool, like you know, that's cool that you really want to explore that. It would still probably bring up some in me. But still, if there's a willingness there to kind of go, yeah, yeah, sure, like I can, yeah, I'd be interested in that. Then I think that's the willingness piece you're speaking about. It just really tests to see are we up for this? And if you're not, that's okay. But then I, we need to sort of make a decision on what that means.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, absolutely yeah, and you can acknowledge your own discomfort too. It's okay to say like, oh, I'm feeling a bit awkward about bringing this up with you or uh, is this a nerve-wracking topic for you?

Speaker 3:

because it is for me. Like you can acknowledge all that awkwardness too, which is why I'm actually a huge fan of sharing resources. I think that's a really uh underutilized tool for couples that I'm always talking to people about communicate. We communicate in a myriad of ways. You know, like it's okay to share a podcast or share it, share a funny video or something and be like, oh, this made me think of you and it's a way of kind of communicating something and also letting someone see you, and we all want to be seen and heard.

Speaker 1:

I think, some of our audience, you know, just trying to reflect on some of our clients and some of the listeners out there, and some of the issues that we've, like, I guess, addressed in sessions with couples is, you know, often the man is all about pleasure. You know that's what he. His job is just to orgasm first and the job done, and then she's feeling very unsatisfied, but she never speaks up about it, right? So I guess I'd love to hear from you is what are some ways or inroads and I guess you've given us one example, like just to start that conversation but is there anything in particular that's coming to mind that she might be able to do in those sorts of situations to start to, to broach this a bit more in their relationship?

Speaker 3:

yeah, definitely. Uh, I think this is a really common barrier, um, particularly if I stay with this example and think about people in a heterosexual dynamic, and I think particularly the women. I work with women. A lot of women and I've had this, I have this have experienced difficulty with like taking up space right, like being allowed to have needs, to ask for things and to receive, and this is something I work with a lot of clients on, um, the ability of women to seek and take and receive pleasure.

Speaker 3:

The pursuit of pleasure has an inherently self-centered and I don't say that negatively an inherently self-centered component to it. It has to, we have to be willing to receive and take, to get sure we just we have to be, and that's that comes less naturally to some people, which I really understand. And then I overlay that with the sexual script stuff we were talking about before, about like sex is over when an orgasm is achieved or whatever it is. And then I add in what I know about women's arousal patterns, in men's arousal patterns, and that men can arrive at enough level of arousal to achieve orgasm in far less minutes than women. So the average for women is somewhere in the vicinity, depending on what research you look at, of 30 to 40 minutes of direct stimulation to achieve enough arousal to orgasm significantly less for men.

Speaker 3:

So what that means is that you're asking this group of people who have are making a massive generalization here, but who have traditionally struggled to receive you're, you're. You're saying to them it's going, if you want to achieve orgasm, that's going to take you longer, you're going to have to receive for longer, and I work with a lot of women who who, quite literally, cannot tolerate receiving pleasure for for any amount of time sometimes. So the answer to your question what would I do with somebody struggling with that? I would get them to practice taking up space outside of the bedroom. So, practice receiving, practice asking, practice having opinions. Next time someone says you know, what movie do you want to watch, or where do you want to have dinner, or what food should we order, or whatever, don't say I don't mind, you choose, I don't mind Whatever you want, I'm not that hungry, whatever.

Speaker 3:

Practice saying actually, this is what I would feel like, and when I say that to people, people often go, oh, but I don't know, and I'm like you don't know, so slow down, check in with yourself. What do I actually feel like in this moment? I actually don't really want to go out for dinner at all, or I would really like to watch something funny tonight, or whatever it is. Practice that in much safer places, first than the bedroom. Practice receiving. Practice asking. Practice taking. Practice taking up space. Practice saying no. Practice saying can I like do all of that outside of the bedroom um first what powerful tip.

Speaker 1:

That's amazing. I can really see the benefit, uh, in many clients just practicing that, because I think that is right that the women do struggle. Probably men too in some degree.

Speaker 1:

But I see in the history that we've worked with is the women do struggle to receive like, yeah, and they're just so conditioned and programmed to do their role, do their job. They just keep going, going, going and they're like, oh, hang on, what do I want, what do I like, what don't I like? Yeah, and taking that time just to start to tune into themselves to, to listen to that, you know, insight for them would be so powerful.

Speaker 3:

Yeah absolutely, yeah, I totally agree my pleasure. I'd also want to see women spending more time on self-pleasure, so on solo touch and masturbation kind of exercises um, because that's something I meet a lot of. I meet a lot of women who don't engage in solo touch or self-pleasure for a myriad of reasons whether it's time or not, feeling like it's allowed, feeling guilty, feeling shamed, not even knowing how they like to be touched, feeling that same anxiety about what's going to happen, how long this is going to take. I've got other things I should be doing, all of that kind of stuff. So getting women to practice giving themselves pleasure, you know, is a lovely place to start practice receiving it beautiful.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I love that too I'm gonna stuck at one point here, laura. I want to see if you can help me with it.

Speaker 2:

When you mapped out that it takes 30, 40 minutes, something like that for a woman to, on average, to drop into a place where she can possibly experience an orgasm, or something like that, wasn't it? Then, if a man's average time to ejaculate is significantly lower than that, and that then rings a lot of alarm bells for me, in that there's some work to do for us men, right in attentiveness, in presence, in, yeah, just being attuned to my partner in the moments rather than being in my head, being attuned into the body, having this as more of a next-level experience rather than a thing that we do, and then it's signified as being done when I'm done.

Speaker 3:

So to me.

Speaker 2:

I'm hearing a lot of challenge in there and a lot of growth opportunity, I guess, for myself and also father men.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, absolutely. This is a really strong script, by the way, for us in our culture about like the focus of sex and the outcome and purpose of sex being around the person with the penis ejaculating and I. That was a very strong script for me. I grew up with like in high school, before I was even having sex, reading magazine articles about like how to give great oral sex to men. Never read an article about how to like 10 tips to ask for what you might like. You know that that article didn't exist. So there's so much like, so much strong messaging around, like centering the entire experience around the penis, like that is a really strong script.

Speaker 3:

So shifting that focus to what I love, this word attunement to like what's happening between us. What's the energy here? How are we both feeling? What can I do to notice more of your nonverbal cues? Again back to communication. What can I do to notice more about what's shifting for you in terms of your body, your muscles, your breathing? You know, how can I kind of notice what's going on for you? And, of course, how can we verbally have a dialogue in those moments to to understand what we each need? And then the other piece that came to my mind as you were talking is how can we then expand our sexual menu, which is a really, really powerful tool to bring in here?

Speaker 3:

Expanding our sexual menu is a really important tool for a couple of reasons. One is because of these differing arousal responses. So this expanding our sexual menu refers to having you know more things to order from the menu. So if I'm able, if I'm able to do that, I've got more to play with when arousal levels are differing. Um, so there's that.

Speaker 3:

The other reason I love a wide sexual menu is because there's lots to say yes to, and when I work with people with issues of mismatched desire. It's easy to say no to sex if my idea of sex is very narrow. So, for example, if I, um, if I'm tired, if it's late and I'm tired and the only script I've got for sex it is is that it is highly vigorous and goes for three hours, yeah, I'm tired. If it's late and I'm tired and the only script I've got for sex is that it is highly vigorous and goes for three hours, yeah, I'm probably going to say no to that if I'm, like, ready to go to sleep.

Speaker 3:

But if I've actually got a really wide sexual menu to choose from with my partner, I can usually find something to say yes to. And that's why I think it shocks people if I share that my partner and I have sex in some capacity or are in a sexual space together every single day. And people go, oh, my god, I couldn't have sex every single day. And I'm like, yeah, but I'm not doing the like, the three hours of like swinging from the rafters kind of sex. We're just in an erotic space together every day and that means lots of different activities, energy levels, time frames, like you can be in a sexual space and have things to say yes to and be attuned to each other without that focus on penetration or orgasm or certain positions or whatever it is. That has normally been your script for sex.

Speaker 2:

Cool. Can you tell me, like, give me some ideas here? Like you know, it would be great to hear some of these Mm-hmm Of what you can do in a sexual space. Yeah, I guess the menu, I guess, yeah, what is? Yeah, in you that doesn't involve inspiration because, like, that script runs so hard through yeah, what is? I think not all of us, but a lot of us.

Speaker 3:

So I just want to maybe explore other ways that we can infuse sexuality into our interactions yeah, yes, so that's why I use that language you probably just noticed me use which, as I said, we're in a sexual space together, so we do a couple of things to really cultivate, um, an erotic space together. Some of that is environmental, so you can cue in that sexual space with particular candle and playlist and lighting and outfits and whatever else you do, so you can really cultivate an environment that sets the tone, like and creates a ritual around. Oh, you're lighting, you're lighting the sex candle. That's promising, like, yeah, so you can kind of cultivate and cue in for each other. I want to be in this erotic space together, and that's environmental. The other thing you can do is to create some great shorthand dialogue between each other, to kind of quickly communicate with each other where you're at in terms of, like, how much you've got in the tank, like, I'm really tired, are you up for X? Instead, which might be like, can we make out for a few minutes before we go to sleep, or can we have a shower together, or can we do something a little bit less energy or slow down or more sensual. What else was I going to say to that? Oh, and the other thing that I think is really lovely to play with is whether we are kind of hold you while you masturbate, that those kinds of really low energy sensual and erotic kind of activities that for some people will feel much more accessible than something that's a bit more high intensity, like penetrative sex. And for a lot of people when I start to talk about these things even if the language might make them a bit uncomfortable, I know it feels a bit more accessible.

Speaker 3:

You know, if you're tired or or anything, I have a chronic pain condition. I have years and years of vaginismus and endometriosis. Penetrative sex is associated with pain for me traditionally not anymore, but it has been so I really feel like that and when I tell people that my partner and I have sex every day but penetrative sex is like I'm not when I'm, you won't believe me when I tell you penetrative sex about 20% of our sexual relationship. It is such a small part of our erotic connection and I love to share that with people quite, and I have his consent to do so because I think it gets people thinking about, like, what else is on the menu? The?

Speaker 3:

The final thing I'll say in that is there are some great tools out there to help you do this. I have a fantastic tool on my website which is a yes, no, maybe list, which is a list of nearly 300 things that you can do. It's divided into categories like warming up, communication, fantasy, role play, power, aftercare, like all different categories, and it's got a bunch of activities, things you'll have to Google that you won't have even heard of, I promise, and you will go through it and you will say, yes, I would love this, or I'd love to keep doing it, or I'd love to try it. No, if it's a hard, no, and maybe if it's like I, I need more information, or maybe in a certain context, and I get people to do this list on their own first, and then come together with your partner and have them do it on their own too, and then come together and talk through your lists. And that is a lovely communication exercise, because I don't expect people to come up with off the top of their head like a magical list of things they could do to expand their sexual menu.

Speaker 3:

And, in fact, my worst nightmare is being asked like what do you mean to you? Because it just feels like such a a broad question. I'm like, oh god, I don't, it all falls out of my head in that moment. But an activity like a yes, no, maybe list provides structure and play, like it's supposed to be fun and a wonderful tool to communicate with each other. And, uh, you'll probably find some things that you're like, oh, we've never even talked about that before, but turns out we're both into it, like, let's try that, let's incorporate that, so yeah, beautiful say lots more on that, but yeah, I just, I just really I guess what I'm hearing is this resource.

Speaker 2:

These resources are the bridge to possibility for people, because before I just heard that I had my own script about what sex is, and then it's just a yes, no, based on this unidimensional kind of viewpoint. So now it's kind of like like cool, let's look at expansion here, and I'm sure for a lot of the listeners, they might be in a friendship space and I think that they're stuck in a friendship space and perhaps they don't know how to transcend that, and I feel like the conversation that you're having right now has helped a lot of people to see the possibility of transcending that, that energy of friendship, to more vibrancy and connection and electricity, and so I'm actually excited about jumping on your website and getting this.

Speaker 3:

So we're gonna do this, hey, babe.

Speaker 1:

Oh, so excited, oh my gosh, you'll have to tell me how you go. It's so fun to make.

Speaker 3:

I'm enormously proud of it. There's a lot of yes, no, maybe lists out there, but yeah, I'm enormously proud of mine. It's one of the most comprehensive I've ever seen. And the way it's divided up into sections I love, because if I say to you nearly 300 things on there, that's overwhelming for some people. But you can just pick one section and be like, hey, let's work on this one section together and see where we want to play and expand our menu here.

Speaker 1:

And I think it's. I just want to just finally, before we wrap this up, I just want to speak to like the importance of this stuff in relationship, right, I guess a lot of the clients that we work with you know we're just doing our stuff day to day, mundane, groundhog life's kind of boring, I guess to some degree. So spicing this up or getting into the, the, the opportunity to deepen their relationship in this intimacy space and this, this I feel like it's like another depth that um relationships need to go. You know, if you've been in a long term or any sort of relationship, but I think it's like essential for the health of it, for the longevity of it, for the, the exploration of yourself, because if there is stuff that isn't isn't um healed, or if there's wounds or stuff that's hurt, like that's painful or whatever, then it's worth exploring to help shift through that, because that's all we're also also going to benefit yourself and your partner and I guess the ripple effect right, the ripple effect out to everything there.

Speaker 1:

So, yeah, I think, it's such a beautiful work that you're doing and sharing and, yeah, it's been really insightful for me too. Good, oh, thank you so much.

Speaker 3:

I appreciate that.

Speaker 2:

So if the listeners want to find you and they want to find some information, maybe they want to even do some work with you or grab these resources what's the best place that they can find you?

Speaker 3:

The best place to find me is probably via my website, which is lauraliecomau, or via my Instagram, which is lauraliesexology. They're probably the best places to find me and find out the work that I do and, yeah, everything we've talked about today.

Speaker 1:

Amazing, and we can always put them in the show notes as well. So, yeah, great, thank you.

Speaker 2:

It's been an absolute pleasure having you on as a guest Like. We're absolutely like. We've learned a lot here.

Speaker 1:

And our listeners will as well. This will be really helpful.

Speaker 2:

Oh good, yeah, yeah, so thank you, and um, yeah, I hope you hope you continue on your voyage of sexology in the beautiful way that you're doing it my pleasure.

Speaker 3:

It's been such a lovely time with you both. I've really appreciated it, enjoyed it, thank you.