Thrive Again - Your relationship podcast

We Almost Lost Each Other Until We Found Ourselves: Our Relationship Journey

• Michael & Amy • Season 1 • Episode 56

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Have you ever wondered what transforms a struggling relationship into a thriving partnership? In this raw and vulnerable conversation, Michael and Amy share their journey from disconnected partners to heart-led relationship coaches who now guide other couples through their darkest moments.

Their story begins like many others – following society's prescribed path of marriage, homeownership, and children without questioning deeper meaning. As Michael pushed himself in his paramedic career and Amy faced the isolation of new motherhood in an unfamiliar town, they found themselves increasingly living parallel lives under the same roof. A pivotal letter from Amy forced Michael to confront his closed-off heart, while his deteriorating health from chronic stress created another turning point when Amy gave him "permission" to ease back.

What makes this episode particularly powerful are the practical tools shared from their years of relationship coaching. They detail their Relationship Vision exercise that helps couples align their desires and dreams, and their 5-minute daily check-in practice that creates safety for vulnerability to emerge. Michael also speaks candidly about men's resistance to emotional work and how brotherhood circles provide healing spaces for men to break through isolation.

At its core, this conversation illuminates a profound truth: "To create the relationship you've never had, you have to become someone you've never been." Michael and Amy's journey from suffering to soul connection demonstrates that even the most challenging relationship dynamics can transform when partners choose to turn toward each other with courageous hearts.

Ready to transform your relationship? Visit michaelandamy.com.au to learn about their coaching programs, online courses, and how to book a clarity call to explore working with them directly.

Thankyou for listening, if you liked it, please remember to subscribe.

Join our Private "Thriving relationships - Deepening connection to self and others" community: https://www.facebook.com/groups/1107209283451758/

Website: https://michaelandamy.com.au/

Join our free 7 day relationship challenge: https://michaelandamy.com.au/free-relationship-challenge

If you would like to book in a private discovery call with us, here is the link: https://michaelandamy.com.au/call

Speaker 1:

So today, amy and I are the ones being interviewed and you're going to hear some really deep insights into our past and where we were and where we've come, and even some emotional moments in there as well. We're being interviewed by the wonderful Melissa Thompson, who's a good friend of ours. She recently had us on her show and this is the recording of that. She recently had us on her show and this is the recording of that.

Speaker 1:

Melissa Thompson is an incredible, inspiring, heart-led leader who is guiding other leaders to lead from the heart as well. She has done some incredible things while she's been on this planet and we are so grateful for having her in our lives. So grateful for having her in our lives but also on this podcast, to have her interview us and bring some really deep questions in to help us to tap in to some emotion actually, and I know there was a moment there where I really dropped into my old self and I felt a lot of emotion come up, which is quite confronting but beautiful at the same time. So I hope you guys enjoy this. This is actually a really vulnerable one for us.

Speaker 2:

Enjoy your couples connection coaches. Our mission is to help couples thrive using a conscious and holistic approach. This podcast is for couples and singles who want to unlock their relationship potential and reconnect on a deeper, more meaningful soul level. We share insights, client breakthroughs and personal stories to help move your relationship from surviving to thriving. To help move your relationship from surviving to thriving.

Speaker 3:

Hello and welcome to the Heart Led Leader. I'm so thrilled today to be sitting here with two of the people who I respect more than anyone in the world. I'm blessed to call them very dear friends and I'm privileged to witness them continually go from strength to strength in the relationship coaching space and also as individuals. Now Michael's also leading a men's brotherhood circle and Amy also witnessing her in facilitating very powerful and transformational breathwork sessions and coaching for individuals. So welcome, michael and Amy, thank you. Thank you for being here today.

Speaker 3:

I've invited you here, as you know, because I believe so much in and have witnessed so much. You be heart-led leaders in this space of relationship work and also just as human beings. The way that you lead in your own life, with your family, within this community that we get to live in together. Everything you do is so heartful and heart-led and truly you're two people who make an incredible difference as individuals and very powerfully as a couple, and I'd love you to speak into as we begin today, just sharing with everybody what, what are you doing right now together and why, like in the space of couples coaching? What's it all about for you? What's your mission, what's your vision, what's the work actually entailing right now for you?

Speaker 1:

thanks so much for that intro, mel. We love you so much and there's so much synergy, I think, between your work and our work and, yeah, I just, I just love that we've been able to blend together, to really share. You know what we're, what we're doing in this community and abroad as well. So so, yeah, what is it? What is our mission? What are we doing? How does this all come, I get like? For us, our, our mission is is to, to help couples to, to realign back to an open-hearted relationship where there's vulnerability, where there's depth, where there's meaning, where there's trust, where there's support, so that, as individuals, they can live in authenticity and with sovereignty, not needing each other, but rather choosing to be with each other. Having that choice, I want to be with you because you make me a better human being. It's not based on clinging, it's not based on trauma bonds. It's not yeah, it's, it's. It's not like a neediness, it's more a. I choose you and you make me better yeah how beautiful would you say, that's is there anything?

Speaker 3:

else for you aims, I think yeah, from my side it's.

Speaker 2:

It's to, um, help humanity have an awareness of what a healthy relationship looks and feels like. You know, I think think for me it kind of comes back to what I witnessed as a teacher ultimately seeing the children who were in difficult families, parents who were maybe divorced or separated or living in a nasty circumstance at home, and the impact the parents have on that little child. It was heartbreaking to see that and witness that in schools. So I kind of tracked back I'm like, well, where does this start from and how can we get better at helping these children? And I realized then that it was a big calling for us to step into more of this relationship space of helping the parents to have deeper understanding, compassionate, you know, commutative relationships that they can then model and witness their children can witness them in that. So, yeah, it was kind of coming back right from that seed and then, yeah, reflecting it all together, wow yeah, that's powerful.

Speaker 3:

I didn't even know that about you so that's gorgeous, yeah and so how did you guys get here? Because you know I've known you for nearly 13 years. You were just a normal couple, you know doing the. Do you're off to work? Amy was off to work, had little kids. How did you get here to this point coaching and helping other people?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, well, I think, starting off like you're right, I mean, we were just guessing, right, like we were just floating through life just doing what we thought we needed to do.

Speaker 1:

Next, right, and it's the old scenario of, well, now you've bought a house, don't you think you should get married, and don't you think you should get a dog and then have kids, and then, you know, get the mortgage, just tick all the boxes, I think, and in a way like following that path unconsciously or just thinking, well, this is just the way that we should do it. It was also modeling, maybe, something that we had witnessed in our upbringing as well. So often, you know, just modeling our parents and what we think is the right thing to do and should we work hard, and whatever belief systems were sort of, you know, instilled, whether they were conscious or unconscious. So for us, we moved to this beautiful little town and had one child at the time, hannah, and she was only one. And yeah, kai was cooking in your belly, and yeah, and then we, we just sort of continued the guesswork until we realized it just wasn't working. And I was working really hard as a paramedic.

Speaker 1:

I was often away, um, amy was just being dropped into motherhood and it was like, really, this is the tricky part for us, and this is where I think that it all started is that you're you're a driven woman, like you're someone who's got a lot of fire in your belly, and you know, previous to that, you were managing a flight center and and you know, there was a, I guess, this drive inside of you and then this shift instantly to motherhood and even though you loved motherhood, the identity crisis I could really see in you and I felt the resistance to that when I got to go to work, I got to hang out with people and talk to adults and things like that, and I often think oh man.

Speaker 1:

I would get home and you would bombard me with just what's happened for the day and for me, like sometimes there was suffering there too. But for me I'm thinking how could you be upset here, you know? I mean, we've got the life that we always dreamed of, right, I'm busting my guts over here, dreamy and you're you wanted to be a stay-at-home mom, like what's the big deal? Would you agree that it sort of started like yeah, at that point?

Speaker 2:

yeah, I just I probably didn't expect um, the, the transition from full-time work to motherhood and then being brought to a little town where I didn't really know anyone. So I was quite isolated. I was alone, you know, three and a half hours, four hours away, no real connections in the community. And yeah, it felt very hard. And, yeah, I guess I had this expectation, which I modelled from my mum, that I had to do it all, like I had to be this amazing mum, I had to be like this housewife, I had to keep everything, you know, in order, and I created a lot of extra stress and pressure on myself which ended up coming out into the children because I I didn't have anyone else to outlet it to, I didn't have a space to exercise or walk or I just kept it all in.

Speaker 2:

And then, yeah, I realized that the behavior that I was um expressing was coming from this place of anger, because I was not happy, I was unhappy and I didn't really know why. But I'm like this is what I dreamed of, what? Why am I so unhappy? So, yeah, it was this real journey of self-exploration. After Kai came along, really, um, and then, yeah, and our relationship was, was hard, like I didn't have the skills to communicate, I didn't know what I was experiencing. I didn't know what this feeling experiencing, I didn't know what this feeling was. I couldn't share it with anybody until I started. I guess, to be honest, it was probably back in Anita's circles, women's circles, where I started to hear and witness other women sharing and being able to express themselves more, and I'm like, oh, that's weird, that's different.

Speaker 1:

And then, yeah, noticing the drift in our relationship and how isolated I was feeling at that time yeah, and that was at the point where I was coming home, I was tired, and then you would be emotional, bringing some things up that you were struggling with and maybe that was even no connection to me and I would see that as being a criticism or a threat or that I'm not good enough. So, because that happened, I would would react. In fact, I remember I didn't really have an open heart at that point at all, probably because of my work as well, because I needed to have a shielded heart and some of the work I was in. But I'd bring that home and even I remember there was a time when you were crying to me on the couch and I remember this and I'm looking at you as if, like you're weaponizing your tears, like you're using that against me now and I can't believe you. You're using the waterworks now and I almost tear up just thinking about the man that I was back then and how, yeah, I'm getting upset now just thinking about it and, yeah, just the yeah, just just realizing how close my heart was at that point and how that was really contributing to our suffering and our loneliness within the relationship.

Speaker 1:

We both felt so alone. I felt like I was doing so much, but I wasn't appreciated for it. Amy was the same. She was doing so much, but I wasn't appreciated for it. Amy was the same, she was doing so much, but there just wasn't any reciprocal appreciation or love or connectedness, and so we just one-upped each other. We just had this energy of me versus you, but on the outside I guess we were projecting that we're okay. So yeah, that was the reality and that's where we were stuck.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, for a long time. I reckon over like two or three years. We just thought that was normal you know, that this is what you just do.

Speaker 2:

This is how. That's how relationships are. And I remember sitting on the edge of my bed one night and I'm like there's got to be more to this than what this looks like, you know, surely, and I couldn't figure it out and I was trying to what's, what's wrong, what's happening, you know, so confusing, I suppose at that time, yeah, so it was a pretty low point in in our relationship where we started to go what are we even doing? Like what? What is this about? You know, I'm not happy, you're not happy, and you were starting to get unwell with overload and burnout and pushing, you know, so hard on all ends, trying to be a good dad, trying to be, you know, um, the breadwinner, the income earner, um, and yeah, it was kind of like a crucial point that I remember.

Speaker 2:

I just actually I think it was from after a women's circle and I was feeling a little bit more empowered in myself and I'm like, right, I've got to write this down, I've got to get out what I'm experiencing and share it with michael, because it's just, it was just ruminating inside and it was bubbling up and I was gonna, I'm gonna explode. And I'd often notice in my but like as a mom, where it came out and I'm like, oh, it's coming out in my kids and shouting at them and angry with them. So anyway, I wrote it all down and I remember giving that letter to you. It was a bit of a turning point, hey.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, the letter floored me. Yeah, I've got to admit, because I think as a man, I just was in this avoidant pattern of just pretending it'll be okay and maybe it's just the season we're in, you know, and maybe next week she'll be a bit better and it could be a period, right, but then it'd happen the next week and the week after right so yeah, poor man, oh beautiful compassion another topic we might dive into so look I'm.

Speaker 1:

I feel like I'm up leveled now because I'm dealing with a perimenopausal woman. So now you know, there's new challenges, hey hey, hey, that's your topic all right all right onto the letter, the turning point.

Speaker 3:

Oh, the letter, the letter, yeah, yeah, so the letter the letter.

Speaker 1:

Um, yeah, yeah for me. I received this letter and I'm like are there something about when it's on paper for me, like it's solidified, it's in front of me, it's a declaration, in a way, it's like a, it's something that still I remember in my mind, as if it was yesterday, and it was an earth-shattering moment, like it was almost like we're on the edge of a cliff and now I needed to confront myself here and I needed to kind of look at myself or yeah, we moved down the path of separation and, and that that just scared the hell out of me.

Speaker 1:

So, yeah, the alternative was to have a look at myself and, yeah, that was probably the start of really like a journey of, yeah, of just diving into self-exploration and working out what are some of these patterns that I have?

Speaker 3:

Can I just pause for a moment there, because you made that choice, but how many people do we see make the other choice? Yeah. You said you know it scared the hell out of you. That's why you chose to do the work and to go down that path. Why do you think it is that so many women, men, choose the path of separation or choose not to look? Why is it so hard for people to consider or want to go there and do that work?

Speaker 1:

Because it's hard, because it just takes so much energy in that decision, to now watch my behavior and take ownership and not push the blame outwards because blame's easier, right like I can just point the finger out there, and it's the government, and it's the environment, it's where we live, um, it's the isolation, it's um, just amy, through this period of time, it's I can just look outwards, it's amy's period. Don't the munchies sound like a monster? It's not you. It's the cycle To be fair to be fair.

Speaker 3:

no, I'm kidding.

Speaker 2:

I thought I was pretty good with my cycles. Clearly not. We shouldn't have had that conversation before this podcast.

Speaker 3:

We're getting a real insight here we started, there we've gone back. Podcast Wow, we're getting a real insight. Here we started, there, we've gone back there.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, because it's hard. It's just hard and life's busy. We've got financial pressures, most of us are dealing with kids and stress and all the things that we've got to get done, just to be okay, just to keep afloat. And so having self-awareness takes an extra bit of bandwidth right, extra bit of energy just to, yeah, to watch, watch self, you know, and actually confront some of the shameful aspects, some of the guilt that's in there, some of the sadness and and diving into that stuff like what's unhealed.

Speaker 1:

You know why am I reactive? Like where does that come from? Yeah, and for me, like I would notice that it was amy's. My perception of amy's behavior was sometimes controlling and that would be the trigger for me. So I would feel trapped, I'd feel like, um, suffocated, and so my freedom is encroached, and so that's when I would be reactive. And, um, so for me, like where else was I? Where else did I feel controlled or suppressed? You know, maybe in my childhood? So that led me down to some exploration there and and amy had her own patterns that she chose to. But I think it's just that it's. It's hard to turn and face yourself I also think there.

Speaker 2:

I just want to add yeah, yes it's hard, but I feel like it's going against the grain of what's normal too. You know it's kind of normal to these days I'm noticing more and more. I'll just separate, you know it's that's just what we do now. You know it's kind of feels like it's uh, society's um norm to to not look at you know the hard stuff and work on yourself, but oh well, that didn't work, or maybe another relationship will work, or maybe another person it'll be better with, or you know, and um, what we see in our work is if we don't heal the, the wound or the, the pattern that's happening in the relationship, it's going to continue in the next one. And I think there's many couples that have had two or three relationships and probably like oh yeah, it's pretty similar.

Speaker 2:

So there is that norm in society to think that it's going to be better. The grass is greener somewhere else. But it's also, I feel, that we don't know where to start. How do we get help with this? Where do we begin? That's why people don't know how to start. How do we get help with this? Where do we begin?

Speaker 2:

that's why people don't don't know how to turn and face the relationship and actually look at it because it it feels like, um, it's too difficult, it's out there, it's, it's a beyond us, you know.

Speaker 2:

But that's what I guess I'd love to share with more and more people is that there is ways to work through this there is people out there now, in, you know, coaching roles, counseling roles, supportive roles, whatever that is to get this help to, to turn and face a relationship, and it's actually not as scary as people believe.

Speaker 2:

Once they start like I think it's that first step. I often say this to my client, our clients, even the couples that just have a clarity call with us you've actually made the hardest step and it's just booking that call. Once you book the call and you realize that actually this is normal, some of the stuff you're experiencing, there are people out there that have like, we've been through it, we can help you with it. You know, and there is a lot of new relationship coaches, you know couples counselors out there these days. So, yeah, I feel like what it used to be like is getting much, much easier to have the support and help out there now. So if you're willing to, magic can happen when you start to look at the relationship.

Speaker 3:

So it's understanding there's help out there and also being able to make that first step, that first step, that first decision, rather than avoiding it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, yeah. And your life just turns around so quickly when you start to take responsibility and ownership and make that decision to turn towards each other.

Speaker 3:

What have you seen? When you say that, what have you seen and how would you sum up the most profound kind of changes as you go along the job? Well, first of all, you had that pivotal moment. You know. The letter was obviously profound and and a pivotal turning point, what you made the decision to to start the work and started working on yourself. Was it just you working on yourself, michael? You both worked. Like what was? What did you actually do? Next, because you didn't have a relationship counselor like what did you do?

Speaker 1:

yeah, for me, um, we talked about the pivotal part of the letter. There was another pivotal point for me as well, and that was, um, we spoke about the permission before. So within within each, within many men I should say we have this unconscious drive to just provide and just just like it's, it's almost hardwired in us from hundreds and hundreds of years of of, you know, conditioning from past generations, and so that drive can sometimes lead to overwhelm and burnout and because, you know men, we don't typically speak out or try to get help or anything like that, we just keep it internalized. So that was my story. So I was sort of stuck in this internalized battle and the problem is is that that started to affect my health and my immune system. I had heart palpitations, high blood pressure, my hair was falling out and clumped. So I was internally an absolute mess, but externally I was trying to just show this facade and I think I was at this point of like really questioning life and actually what this is, and like is it even worth living?

Speaker 1:

And these kinds of questions were really I was asking myself and I remember Amy just saying coming up to me and and she just sort of said, um, hey, we don't, we don't really need, you don't need to push so hard, like actually we'll be okay, we're going to be okay, and I just remember those words just really gave me this permission to, to just allow myself to just step back a little bit, and I think it was within six months, I went part-time in the ambulance and that gave me more space and time to start to reflect a bit more, and I know that that's not possible for a lot of people, but for me, I needed that, otherwise I was probably going to die. So I needed to kind of really, um, yeah, have that space and time. But the permission was the, the space that I needed in order to just, oh, exhale and kind of go, okay, so who am, who am I again? Yeah, and that was that was a period of time for me to go through that. So it was through amy, that her permission, that allowed me to drop my guard and allow myself to go through that, that period of, of, yeah, transformation.

Speaker 1:

Ultimately what happened?

Speaker 2:

yeah, and that you led into a lot of um meditation. Maybe you were meditating a lot. Then you were healing yourself and yeah, like there was, the doctors were trying to give me all this medication and stuff to heal the blood pressure and the you had diabetes and all that stuff. But, yeah, you took it on yourself to know it's got to be another way and I remember you meditating for hours at night. Sometimes I'll be like, oh, you're still sitting in the lounge exactly come to bed.

Speaker 3:

No, was that annoying or was that like no, I just totally left him.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I just totally left him to do his thing. And I knew that it was like a bit of a journey because I guess for me I was kind of down that path already, like I started exploring myself, awareness and you know, my spiritual journey and my growth and stuff was already kind of on its way. Um. So I, yeah, I was like this is amazing. I was so grateful that you know, you.

Speaker 2:

He was exploring that and just kind of patience and grace and witnessing. You know, obviously his health issues was scary, um, but yeah, and then it was also like oh, how do I do this now? And and but I think between the two of us it felt so much more bonded from that point where he's just made a commitment to himself and um to just take that time that he needed and what a gift you gave him in.

Speaker 3:

That isn, isn't that powerful? Doesn't that just really exemplify the gift that you give to someone, when you offer them time or space or, yeah, permission to take a load off or to acknowledge them or to appreciate them. It's the smallest gestures that can make the most profound difference and create this sense of spaciousness and being seen and held, and isn't that what we all want and need, whether in a relationship or not?

Speaker 2:

it's that yeah, yeah, it's that humanness, that in us that we want to, we want to feel connected, we want to feel like someone's got our back because I don't know about you, but I felt like so alone in a lot of my journey as a new mum, you know, and it was hard and I had to, like, put this big backpack on and just trudge through the mud. You know a lot of the days and, yeah, I think that village support is lacking a lot now and also that it's it's this competition to keep up with the Joneses. You know you've got to have the. You know you've got to have the good income, you've got to have the big house, and it causes so much disconnect from our truth, you know, and and and what we are here for, I believe, is is to slow down and not not speed up and rush through life, but actually quite the opposite.

Speaker 2:

And yeah, it had to. We had to break through our program. We had to break that conditioning that we were you must work hard, you must get good income, don't, you know? Don't sit on the couch, you're lazy, like all of those beliefs had to really be looked at, because that other way wasn't working for us. Yeah, you know, and I see it doesn't work for a lot of couples, but we're trapped in it and it's tricky to get out.

Speaker 3:

And it's one thing to do your own work and be self-aware, but how do you bring communication is such a key and foundational skill to be able to have effective communication, to be able to not only get your point across in a way that you're heard and really understood, but also to listen to the other deeply and to understand others, rather than just listening to reply or, you know, make your point heard because you're cranky, it's all got to come out and what have been the most kind of, I guess. How did you find that bridge together to communicate to each other? If you're doing your own personal work and your inner work to make these changes, when you realise things needed to change, but how do you then bring that together as a couple? Great question.

Speaker 1:

It's an awesome question, mel. As you were speaking those words, what was coming to me was that we can give you a structured communication strategy, right, and you can try and remain in the confines of, I don't know, mirroring, validating, empathizing. These are the words that you say, and to a degree that might work. But if there's underlying resentment there, then my partner's going to be looking through a lens that sees me as a threat, no matter what I say right now. He's probably going to come back with something. So my nervous system's like ready. So the other side of that is working through the resentment, wading through the trenches of the pain and the cuts and the suffering that's happened previously, so that now we can gently open hearts and the the for my. My understanding of of what really solid, conscious communication is is me being able to open my heart to you and your world and for you to do the same for me, and also for me to have the courage to almost call you out when I feel like I'm invalidated, when I feel like you didn't really hear me there. Um, is it okay if we just come back again and conflict, as as we have witnessed? That is really just two people trying to understand each other at the same time, like we're trying to get our point across at the same time, I should say and and both aren't hearing each other because we're both in our own heads, in our own story.

Speaker 1:

So for me, the biggest thing has been practices to get me out of just living above my shoulders, so living in my head, and actually integrating into the body so that I can feel more, so that way I can feel you and your experience. I want to feel that. Previously I didn't want to feel that because that's too painful for me. So, yeah, dropping into the body, into the body awareness, the sensations and the remembrance of. Maybe I don't quite understand your experience right now, but I have felt sadness before and so that actually I can see that you're sad and and that in a way it's it's almost deepening into their experience, and I know that that's a lot and that that sounds like a lot for a lot of people. But if you're stuck in your own head and your own story and you're not willing to open up to your partner's story and their experience and their perspective, even if you don't understand it, then communication is going to be have a massive ceiling on where you can get.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, just going back to your question, how did we do it? We fumbled for years through it, you know it wasn't something that came easily or naturally to us. We'd, like you said, we didn't go and see a counsellor or a coach or we did our own journey and then, like you said, we came back together to try and see if we can work this out ourselves. But it took us a long time to get to this, you know. So it was through fumbling and falling over and not listening and getting frustrated and all of the normal stuff, but we stuck at it and then we started to realise that there is some power in what we have here, you know, and then we just went and did, obviously deep dived into the research and the study and all of the different, I guess, information that we've learnt over the time, and now we can share it with other couples. But, yeah, so if you want to take the fast road, we've learnt that over like what are we now?

Speaker 2:

We've been together for 20 years you know, so that's why I guess we're passionate about sharing this with others, because it took us a long time, you know, to get to this point, but it doesn't need to take a long time. We've seen it within 12 weeks for some couples that we work with how quickly that you know we can help them through our story and what we went through what do you witness?

Speaker 3:

are there sort of key core issues? Generally speaking, if you were to generalize the problems that couples have mostly we've worked with could you sum them up in particular categories or particular problems?

Speaker 2:

that it all boils down to a couple of things yeah, definitely, we're saying this the other day, wasn't it like when we, over the years it's been about four years we've been working with couples and relationships and you start to see a theme, you know, and it's, and it's very similar to what we experience, but and there's also some nuances and some tweaks and stuff as well that are different. But ultimately, um, the women are anxious, you know, or they've got like a, a controlling, overbearing type of nature, which is, I guess, leading from whatever it is in their childhood, but, uh, often emasculating their men like they're not good enough. You can't do that, you, you know. And then there's an unworthiness in the men, so they're feeling like they're not enough. They're questioning themselves a lot. They're I'll just work more, I'll just keep myself more distance, because I that's how, what I know, how to do. So, yeah, this is the.

Speaker 2:

I'm generalizing quite broadly here, but it often is a similar dynamic or sometimes it's actually switched around. Sometimes, yeah, the, the man, can be the anxious one as well, but to be honest, I think I don't know about you, babe, but yeah, it's often that type of underlying insecurity within each of them. Because that was for us same. For us, I needed security and safety and Michael would not be able to communicate or share what he was up to, and it would create this over anxiousness and control, and I would micromanage and control and make sure that you know he was, I could know where he was and what he was up to, and then I felt safe, um, and and even down to like the smallest of things, like cutting vegetables in a certain way, like that was my how controlling I needed to be, because I felt so unsafe ultimately underneath all of that. So when you start looking at yourself, you start noticing these things. But yeah, I think that's the general gist of some of our couples that we work with, or the themes that are out there.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I think trust is a big one. And trust isn't just in the big, the big, big wounds that can happen within relationships, it's also just the micro cuts. You know, I've just you said you're going to do something and then you don't do it, and then there's little white lies and and um, I know for a man like now, a woman just knows, like there's just this intuition.

Speaker 1:

Intuition, we think that we can kind of like get around it and do little sneaky things, but it just doesn't work. And so she then develops this like deep mistrust. That's there, but she won't speak, things like I don't trust you, I need you to kind of step up and be more trustworthy. She just like questions all the things that I'm doing and it feels like you're just controlling me. But it's really just this deep fear that I just don't feel safe with you. And so trust is a big one and I would say appreciation is such a simple thing and the research from the gottman institute they've really done some a lot like 30 years of research and appreciation and how by just giving just a couple of of appreciations to your partner each day can actually totally dissipate resentment like it's it's it's the antidote to resentment. So by flipping the switch and actually looking like actively looking at your partner for the good things that you see and speaking it to them, I know for me I I saw them, but I wasn't going to give it to her.

Speaker 1:

I don't want to boost her up right and she, you were the same right absolutely, yeah, yeah, we were.

Speaker 2:

It was a real tit for tat. Like you're doing that, I'm doing this great, but there was never an appreciation on that. Yeah yeah.

Speaker 1:

So I think appreciation is a big one. That's that's really missing. Um, and it's the. It's just the little comments.

Speaker 1:

We're speaking with a couple last night and we're helping them through a few things, and and she was just saying how she just puts so much effort into every dinner, like it's, she puts on a big, beautiful dinner every single night and he would come home from work and he would love it, but what we found is that he's never actually communicated. Oh, it's a beautiful meal, thank you so much, like. And he we only just dropped into the realization of what she needed in that and that was almost like oh, thank you, I'm so glad that you liked it, because she was left in this void of I don't know if he's going to like it, is it going to be good enough? So you think about the mind, of what's running through her mind, and if he just said, oh, wow, this is just so beautiful Like, thank you so much, I can tell that you've put so much love into this, then that would have put her mind a little bit more at ease, just that. Hey, I'm enough Like, I'm doing enough here and you appreciate me.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, so simple, hey, but yet it's such a bridge to see it and get there sometimes. So, because you obviously got couples who are in a really bad place and not turning toward each other at all, or maybe where you guys were before you had your pivotal moment, you've got couples who are happy, happy enough, would you this is nice to give value and give some tips and practical things that people can use and try, whether they're in a relationship or even with a friend or just any kind of relationship that they want to improve. Would you suggest a particular, one particular tool or two particular? You know anything in particular? That in particular, a lot now, have you got any tools that you'd like to share that are just foundational for that turning toward each other in the first instance?

Speaker 2:

yeah, there's so much, but I think what comes to mind first um, oh, there's two actually that are coming to mind, but the first, the first one that I think that I loved um, I love doing with clients and I love when we did it as well is actually creating space to have a look at what you are both wanting in a relationship. Right, and it's cool, we call it the relationship vision. So actually sitting down together and going, hey, what's your ideal love relationship look like, share that with me and being curious about what is some of the important things for them. You know, it could be like, I don know, we communicate really calmly and when we sit down and we we hear each other. You know that might be really beautiful and this is not always going to happen every time, but this is like I think, for for me, I helps me, because I like to manifest, I like to get clear on what. What is it that we're heading towards?

Speaker 2:

you know, we have all these goals, I think, in in business and now in our work. You know, you probably, if you're working somewhere, there's always some sort of goals or some sort of target you have to reach. In the, you know, if you're doing fitness, there's always like a goal that you have. But we don't have it in relationships. So if you can sit down and create your relationship vision of what you and your partner actually want and how you want to feel, what are some of the ways you speak to each other? What are the things that you do? Do you have a date night once a month that you dedicate your time to um? Do you um, you know have family time all together? Do you want to play games on the night? But helping a couple to create that it? It just is magical to watch, because often we don't speak about that. You know, and what I love the most about that is they'll be so similar. They'll both want the same things and they'll never get to share that with each other unless they do that activity.

Speaker 2:

It's like oh wow, you want the same as me, and it's just like oh, this bond is instantly kind of brought together because they know that they're on the same path, but they've never spoken about it.

Speaker 1:

So from a practical, side just to round out what you said um, how does a couple do this? So you would literally just have a piece of paper each and you would take three minutes and each of you would just write down all of the things that you want in your ideal love relationship, in this relationship, and you write them in present tense, as if it's already happened, like actually would be better. So, um, yeah, we have amazing sex together. We dedicate one date night every fortnight together. Um, yeah, we, we communicate effortlessly to each other with respect.

Speaker 1:

Um, list as many as you can, and then the next step is you read them to each other. Okay, so once you read them out loud to each other, you might feel some resonance in similarities, and then after that, you work together to blend them to have probably a maximum of 10 mutual visions together. So you work together, some might be similar and you come up with 10, and then from there, you live by those ideals and every six months you just review them. So this is something that you would possibly put up on your wall so that both of you see it every single day, and that's one of the more powerful ways in which to zoom out of the busyness of life and actually realize what we're moving towards, which helps the connection as a byproduct.

Speaker 2:

I think about if we would have done this activity like when we were kind of in that two individuals living under the same roof, energy and really separate. It would have helped us a lot to go. Oh, we're actually okay and my nervous system could settle, because we're actually. We are wanting the same thing. You're not wanting to just go to work 24-7 and avoid me completely and run away every time I get home, and you know like that's what it felt like.

Speaker 1:

Yeah right.

Speaker 2:

So, yeah, it would have helped us a lot back then if we would have done that activity Powerful.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, and I love that because it's the zoomed out. It helps with the zoomed out aspect of the relationship, but I think another tool that's really simple for the zoomed in, like day-to-day stuff is just a five minute check-in. So this is actually coming into the relationship depth zone we call it, which is, yeah, really like the vulnerable space, the space between you and I, and it might start off lightly, so we just start each other, ask each other three questions, um. So the first question might be what are you most challenged by at the moment?

Speaker 2:

and have to be in the relationship by. They can just be in life just individual something that's challenging you. Yeah, yeah yeah.

Speaker 1:

And then the next question might be what are you grateful for today? Yeah, so that's dropping into the gratitude. And then the third question is how does the space feel between you and I right now? So that opens up just an opportunity for reconciliation, you know, for just working out. Well, look, I'm, I'm actually I don't know I'm I'm a bit pissed off at the moment because of what happened last night. So I'd love to revisit that maybe later today, if that's okay, or hey. I'm feeling really connected to you. I'm actually feeling the love more than I have in the last couple of weeks. I'm getting more warmth from you and those sorts of things. So there's three questions to get an idea of, firstly, where the individual's at. But then also, hey, what about us?

Speaker 3:

how are we feeling? What are you challenged by, what are you grateful for, and what does the space between us feel like right now? Yeah, yeah, and it's a place of curiosity, not for criticism.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, um, it's just literally. Yeah, no pointing fingers, it's more just like hey, I want to understand your world right now.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, no judgment and what that does, creating that container for each day to have a check-in. It helps you both to again come back together. Remember that actually this is a relationship, we're not two individuals, and and when you start to build that over time if you can do that, I don't know, even if it has to be weekdays over a few weeks what we've seen with couples that we've worked with is that there's such beautiful safety within each other because you're there, you're present, and then this safety comes and then the vulnerability comes, and then there's some stuff that has come out with couples that we've worked with in this check-in that has been profound and that they've never opened up to, never shared, never been able to, but they feel safe enough over this gradual time.

Speaker 2:

So, five minutes a day and it's not to have this deep conversation and go back and forth and solve problems. Share, that's all it is. It's a sharing opportunity.

Speaker 1:

You know what I mean, so I think some couples can go.

Speaker 2:

Oh, it's going to take me an hour to get through all this. We're not doing it right.

Speaker 5:

You. Oh, it's going to take me an hour to get through all this.

Speaker 3:

That's, we're not doing it right. You're just a quick check. This is the five minute check-in process yeah, it's a whole different thing.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, yeah, if you need time to talk and go deep, that's later. Yeah, great, okay, and so that's lovely for couples working together. Obviously, there are a lot of people in relationship who you know there's a partner not willing to do the work or they have to walk away, it has to close and you know there's no opportunity for future growth. What would you say for those, for those people who are in that kind of situation and you know, willing to do the work and hopeful for the beautiful relationship and the connection and like what? What can they do as individuals to support their own development?

Speaker 1:

yeah, I think first just take stock, like what's just happened.

Speaker 1:

You know, what have I just been through, you know, and actually just pausing, and often we see so many people just jump into the next relationship because it that's the, it's like the proxy, it's like the drug, it's a thing that's missing. For me, I need to jump straight into another connection, but we're just, we're just blocking the opportunity for reflection on, even if you are in a relationship where there's a lot of suffering, there's a certain amount of allowance that happened from your side that led you into that predicament, whether it was not setting boundaries, whether it was not communicating effectively, and maybe that was based on fear, for sure, and I totally get that, um, but really taking stock and then going, okay, so how was I contributing to this? Because that will give you an indicator as to maybe what you you ought to work on so that you can drop into a healthier relationship next. So for me, I would definitely advise somebody to take some space and time and use that as an opportunity to really take stock as to what's just happened.

Speaker 2:

And I think too, that's if you've broken up right and you're looking at healing and then moving forward but is to look at what is any patterns, is there any themes? Is there anything that's coming up from past relationships that is similar? And because if that is the case, then there's often something that you're obviously contributing to that too. So that is your opportunity for learning and growth and healing, whatever that part of you that is showing up over and over again.

Speaker 3:

yeah, yeah, and there's. So there's. The reality is there's so much available to us, isn't there? There's a whole world, you know, you can google anything you can access, visit people, I feel, on witness or awakening more and more, and there's more and more well-being practices being taken up. There's breath, you know, breath work to release trauma. There's more and more men's kind of groups happening and I see daily men more bravely stepping into those spaces and that that is a big cultural shift, isn't it? Because that's so, I mean it's, it's a little easier for women. It's more natural, I guess, for us to to lean toward that connection and and sharing and self-development, but for men to to break through those cultural norms and really be brave to speak up or to look within when it's so hard and so painful and so uncomfortable like?

Speaker 3:

could you speak into that a little bit, michael, from your experience with the men you've worked with and why you have seen that to be so important to offer it out?

Speaker 1:

yeah, I think, um, naturally men, as I said before, we can isolate ourselves and sort of become this island, because reaching out means that I'm weak. And yeah, the truth is like it's not a weakness to seek support, it's not a weakness to be vulnerable in the right space, right In the right supportive space. So for me, when I see a man actually reaching out to maybe a brotherhood or a community or a men's circle or something like that, I see a man of strength who's willing to kind of almost sacrifice a part of his ego to just say, hey, I'm not okay, like I'm actually not okay, and that takes courage actually to put your hand up. And for men that actually do that, they move into a space where other men are open enough to share their struggles too. And then all of a sudden, the man who was alone and was isolated and felt like an island realizes that everyone else was doing the island thing too.

Speaker 1:

We're all just a bunch of islanders and they can all get some coconuts.

Speaker 1:

So there's something liberating in that it's sort of like this oh man, wow, I had no idea, because all I've been doing is scrolling on Facebook and it looks like everything's okay out there, because the only time that I contact people is, or get together with someone is maybe catch up at the pub or you know, nowadays it's just like that physical get together in the gatherings. They're just not. They're not as common and the gatherings are just not. They're not as as common. Like it, it seems like, because the internet is quite unquote connected us. We're becoming more disconnected, yes, from the humanness that actually is here and the real sharing.

Speaker 1:

And so, all of a sudden, these, yeah, these men's, groups and circles and, um, yeah, and these brotherhoods that are actually helping to heal each other, become like this beautiful, sacred flame that's there always. And now, men, if they feel like they're courageous enough to own their own shit and go you know what I'm not doing? Okay, there's a place to go now. It doesn't have to be oh, I've got to go and get a therapist. It doesn't have to be, oh, I gotta go and get a therapist, like it doesn't have to be that way, yeah, gotcha.

Speaker 3:

so just to clarify that, because, yeah, there's obviously a lot of men who I know of anyway, and I'm sure you've worked with who. Is it fair to say that the majority, like the relationships who work, in the majority of the time it's sort of the woman inviting in this process and wanting the work, and the men are a little bit more resistant. Is that? I don't want to generalize, but is that a sort of yeah, I'd say, statistically for us that's true.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, yeah, I would say that that's true but yeah, I feel like what.

Speaker 2:

What happens is that the women invite, invite, invite, and they get to this point, I'm done. And then, and then the men are like oh shit, I didn't see that coming. And then they're left alone, and then they, they're seeking these brotherhoods and reaching out. You know what I mean like oh it's like what do I do now?

Speaker 1:

okay, or they're scrambling for therapists, but she's already off the cliff like she's already checked out emotionally and now he's like oh, I never saw it coming, yeah, yeah and that's very common.

Speaker 3:

Yeah, it is sad and therapy could feel big like for some people that we're seeing a therapist or seeing a counselor it's confronting and it would still feel like an us you know them against me kind of scenario I could imagine for some people yeah, yeah, there's a fear there for many, including like myself, if I was to go in for marriage counseling like I'd be feeling like this person's going to expose the bad guy here. Yeah.

Speaker 1:

And I'm going to feel cornered, I'm going to be trapped and I'm just going to have to kind of just roll over and just be the person that they want me to be. And especially because the majority of therapists are women, that's also a huge threat to the man. Yes, so, which is another reason why we do what we do and why I'm in this space as well, is because I advocate also for safety in the man, right For him and actually what's important for him. It's not that I have more wisdom over women, it's just that I'm a man, like I actually know, I feel it in my body what a man's going through. So you can't deny that it's like me.

Speaker 1:

I can't understand what you guys go through I try, but I do and I and I've, I've come to the I've, I've come to realize that there's not a cookie cutter way to do this, and so I've got to get better at just reading the room, and that's been my new thing. It's like all right, where are we at here? Okay.

Speaker 3:

What day in the month is it? No, that's great and so, but yeah, because there'll be people that therapy is for, or couples counselling is for, and that's the beautiful difference you've articulated with what you guys do as a couple together and advocating, you know, for both. Um and but. Then there's also those private journeys of, yeah, the brotherhoods and the women's circles, and so much power in those, and I guess I would imagine, and I know from my own work and experience, it takes that commitment beyond anything else, even before the commitment to anyone else. It's the commitment to developing yourself, understanding yourself, healing yourself as the foundation for how you can then connect with others, and I've certainly learned a lot you know, over relationships in my years.

Speaker 3:

So, um, but yeah, it's pretty foundational and so important to start with self hey 100.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's definitely going to start with self. That's that radical responsibility of your part in it all.

Speaker 3:

Yeah so is there anything that we haven't covered yet today about relationships, about your journey that is speaking in your heart, that you want people to know?

Speaker 1:

I think for me and from my perspective to simplify this a little bit and this is biased, I just want to say this is my judgment, but it's also based on research, but it might not be everyone's truth is that the only way through your relationship struggles. The only way so again, I said I'm biased right is through connecting emotionally with your partner. It's through the emotions. It's not through a strategy, it's not going to work. It is going to work, but it's got such a cap on it. And if you're actually wanting that deep connection, that thriving relationship, it has to be through opening your heart. It has to be through remembering who you are and being willing to confront your shadows. And so that doesn't sound easy, but it's a journey totally worth taking. It's the most liberating, insanely beautiful, terrifying ride that you can go on, but on the other side could potentially be the relationship of your dreams.

Speaker 2:

so yeah, I think that sums up that quote we share with every couple at the right. The beginning of our journey is to create the relationship you've never had. You have to become someone you've never been. And it's really true, you know, I feel like it is a journey of, of depth and and um transformation and inquiry and connection, you know, in connection to not just your partner but to self and to to the universe so yeah, I think that, uh, we shared most of our journey.

Speaker 2:

But, yeah, hopefully it helps others to kind of get inspired that it's not too late and also it just takes that first reach out, that first contact. That is the hardest part, because what you'll learn is actually it's not as hard when you have support and you've got someone there to help and support you guys like we would.

Speaker 3:

What's been the biggest changes for you guys as a couple? Have you got the relationship of your dreams and if so, why, like? What does that look like for you? What's been the change from where you were to now? How is it different?

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think for me it just feels like we've just got each other's back continually, you know, like we're just in this team with this deep connection. We see each other's souls. Now We've got to see through the person and can really connect in that soul-to-soul level, and it's really special when that happens. It's just yeah, you become one. It's really beautiful.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I love that. I think the souls aligned, is it? It's behind the veil of the physical body. It's something deeper than that I can even describe here Definitely. And that is sometimes apparent when relationships, when you first connect with somebody and you sort of it's just like this, knowing I'm supposed to be with you, and then the honeymoon phase just starts to wane away after 18 months or so and then you're left with um, you know just this power struggle that can happen, and so I think the power struggle is it's also what we call the reality phase, and you can either move through that with a lot of growth and personal growth together you can can do it together or it's just too much and you end up deciding look, no, this isn't working, I'm going to try a different route. I don't mean that Keeping it real.

Speaker 3:

Maybe I did, keeping it real.

Speaker 1:

Maybe I meant that. So is that what's transformed for you? That's it. You don't have to find a different to find. I didn't have to find a different route, that's it.

Speaker 3:

That's why this is this dream relationship we've nailed it, yeah done beautiful, okay, and so how can people, if they want to work with you, how can they work with you?

Speaker 1:

Great Good question. So, yeah, you can go to michaelandamycomau. You can check out our website. We've got a whole heap of you know. We've even got an online communication program that's self-paced. If you're not wanting to just jump straight into doing the two-on-two work with us, then absolutely, we've got some ways in which you can make some, make an impact in your own relationship. Jump on there, it's all there. You can have a clarity call with us if you like. Clarity call is a 45 minute talk with us just to help you, to unpack where you're at and give you some strategies on where you, where we think you should go, and what you should do um, yeah, otherwise we're on facebook and instagram and um, we've got a podcast, so our podcast is thrive again, your relationship podcast.

Speaker 1:

We've had over 54 episodes.

Speaker 3:

We even interviewed you, melissa and it's a great episode good conversation and also work um as individuals who are doing your own individual work. So, michael, what are you available to or is it available for more? Yeah?

Speaker 1:

cool question. Yeah, so at the moment I do one-on-one work with men who are looking to really move through some of these old patterns and, yeah, that's sort of normally a tailored journey together. Otherwise, I've got an online brotherhood, which is absolutely incredible, just based on the foundations of integrity, accountability and compassion. So they're the three pillars and we have just this insanely safe, beautiful brotherhood that's there that men can tap into. It is by application, so you can go on michaelandamycomau forward, slash Inner Sanctum and you can check that out inner sanctum beautiful.

Speaker 3:

And what about you aims?

Speaker 2:

yeah, I work one-on-one with women as well, often in that relationship space, how they can show up better in the relationship but for themselves as well. So that's a deep dive into we call it the inner journey. And then obviously, um, as you mentioned at the beginning, the breath work. Um, I do a couple of different breath work options one-on-one, deeper guided breath work or bigger groups as well.

Speaker 3:

Beautiful. We've actually got one coming up in.

Speaker 4:

July. Haven't we love? We do, don't we? Yes, might be long.

Speaker 3:

Beautiful. Well, thank you so much for taking the time today and sharing your wisdom. You certainly are a couple who everyone could aspire to. You've certainly inspired me and given me hope, and I love that you've shared yeah, openly some powerful strategies. So thank you, love you both very much and keep up the great work, because you're making a difference.

Speaker 1:

Thank you so much, Mel. It's been an absolute pleasure. It's beautiful.

Speaker 2:

It's nice to kind of have that space. I really appreciate that. Thank you, awesome.