Attachment, Resentment & Narcissism: Understanding the Patterns Behind Relationship Pain with Clare Rosoman

When you’re stuck in the same fight, it’s tempting to believe you just need better communication skills. We’ve learned the hard way that the real lever is often deeper: the bond, the emotional safety, and the attachment needs neither of you is saying out loud.

We’re joined by Claire Rosoman, a psychologist and EFT trainer who helped shape our own work, to break down what emotionally focused therapy looks like in real relationships. We talk about why secure attachment creates flexibility, how self-protection shows up as “armour”, and why slowing the moment down is the fastest way to find what’s actually happening underneath. Claire shares practical language and memorable metaphors to help couples move from defensive cycles into clearer reaching and responding.

We also go into resentment as a cold protest that can drain goodwill over time, plus the tough truth that some “relationship problems” are tangled up with individual issues like addiction and coping strategies. Then we tackle one of the most searched and most misused topics online: narcissism. Claire clarifies narcissistic traits vs narcissistic personality disorder, explains grandiosity, entitlement and gaslighting, and describes the “fog” many empathic partners experience when their reality has been governed for years. We explore what can happen when you finally set a boundary, including the crucial difference between narcissistic patterns and simple misunderstanding or neurodivergence.

If you want a grounded, compassionate conversation about EFT for couples, attachment theory, relationship resentment, and navigating narcissistic dynamics with clearer eyes, press play. Subscribe, share with someone who needs support, and leave a review letting us know what landed most for you.

Check out https://bceft.com.au/ for resources and courses on this topic.
Grab Clare's book here: https://www.amazon.com.au/Emotionally-Focused-Guide-Relationship-Loss/dp/103220561X

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Transcript

Introduction And Our Mission

SPEAKER_01 0:09

We're Michael and Amy, your couple's connection coaches. Our mission is to help couples thrive using a conscious and holistic approach. This podcast is for couples and singles who want to unlock their relationship potential and reconnect on a deeper, more meaningful soul level. We share insights, client breakthroughs, and personal stories to help move your relationship from surviving to thriving.

SPEAKER_00 0:36

Okay,

Claire’s Path Into EFT

SPEAKER_00 0:37

we have Claire Rosaman here today with us. We're super excited about this. I've actually thought about having Claire on the show for a long time, so I'm glad that we got around to it. Claire was actually a big part in our training, especially around emotional focus therapy and also narcissism and how EFT actually plays a role in that as well. And so, yeah, we're super grateful to have you on our podcast. And I'd love to just maybe open this up, Claire, with just asking a little bit about you and your background in relationships and EFT in general, um, and also how you got into yeah, how did you get into this work? That's probably where I want to go.

SPEAKER_02 1:21

Well, thank you for having me. It's lovely to be here on your podcast. It was always been so nice having the two of you in my trainings, seeing your warm smiles and the way you ask such good questions and engage with the material. Yeah, I can see EFT is such a great fit for the two of you. Um in terms of my background, well, I trained in psychology back in the late 90s, and I just found myself really drawn to models with depth. So I worked in a variety of settings in hospitals, in schools, in um NGO type clinics, and I always loved models that went to the heart of the matter. Like when I learned about attachment theory, I was like, oh yeah, this is so exciting. But there really wasn't a specific model of therapy that operationalized the attachment principles. And so I really enjoyed schematherapy because it went to the heart of where people learned the lessons they learned in life that kind of taught them how to navigate relationships or how to see themselves or how to cope with stress or how to survive hard times in their life. So I found schematherapy really helpful. But back when I was doing my training, CBT was kind of the main therapeutic modality with a strong evidence base for creating change. And I worked in a CBT unit in a psychiatric hospital for many years, which was an amazing experience. I got to see so many other clinicians working and to learn so much from different modalities and different training backgrounds. We had psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers, diversional therapists, nurse therapists, and I learned so much from all of them. And in that job, we got to experiment a lot with schematherapy and doing social experiments throughout the hospital where we would get all our group therapy participants doing like a human conga line throughout the hospital and to sort of do exposure therapy to feeling silly and realizing nothing bad happens. Um, so we got to play with a lot of stuff, and it was there that I learned so much about CBT, but I also just learned about other models and I was drawn to schema, I was drawn to acceptance and commitment therapy. And shortly after leaving there, I was working in a school, and so I was working so much with families and seeing the role of the family unit in adolescence, well-beings, and couples and how important parents are at the helm of the family. And so that really expanded my view to family systems and couples, and I think then I was still really enjoying the models with depth, but wanting to look more at broader systems, and that's when I found Hold Me Tight in 2008 when Sue wrote Hold Me Tight, and other therapists that I was working with were also talking about EFT and they'd read Hold Me Tight. So there was this sort of buzz. And I was so drawn to it because it seemed to combine everything about the models that I liked into one really elegant model. It had the depth about going to the heart of the matter, it had the attachment piece, which was the first time I'd really seen a therapeutic model that operationalized the principles of attachment theory. And it had the emotion focus and the experiential focus, as in working with a live emotion in the room to create change that you see in ACT. So it had the best of all the models. So I felt like I'd hit the jackpot. And then on top of that, it had this really lovely, non-blaming way of looking at couple distress, where you could hold both partners framing their distress in a cycle or a pattern rather than finding the bad guy. It felt like it went to the heart of the attachment bond rather than just let's change the way you say things to each other. Let's really change the way the bond feels. So, for all of that, I I loved it and started dabbling with it quite inexpertly and found that clients really liked it too. So I didn't really look back from there.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

Yeah, I love that. And and there was just a moment there where you shared, like rather than changing the way that you say something, let's learn how to bond. Like, and and that to me is getting to the heart of the matter. And that's probably also why we were attracted to this, because it's not just focused on behavioral changes, it's it's focused on transformation. And that's what I that's why I feel like we we mostly use this, you know, in our in our therapy. We do, you know, encompass other, you know, other learnings like Gottman principles and and things that are great because the the research is so profound in that space. But yeah, getting to the heart of the matter is really, yeah, what's drawn drawn us towards this too. So yeah, totally resonate with that.

SPEAKER_02 6:17

Yeah. Yeah.

Bond First Not Communication Skills

SPEAKER_02 6:18

I once heard Sue Johnson, who developed emotionally focused therapy. Um, I heard her once say that when couples are securely connected, they communicate just fine, they solve problems just fine. Their communication is really clear, they're really flexible, they collaborate, and they can bend and flex with each other and respond to life's challenges as a unit. Because one of her great quotes is with security comes flexibility. And so she then said, So we don't teach people communication skills, we work at the level of the bond. And when people are securely bonded, their communication is really clear and they can respond flexibly. And that's, I think, a key way that EFT is different from other models. It's more bottom up, it's from the bond, the emotional connection up. And we do work on communication skills, but we do it by working on the bond. We don't put the communication skill on top and hope that that improves the bond.

SPEAKER_01 7:19

Yeah, that's pretty profound. I like that. And I think, like you said, in what we've seen is the biggest changes come from when people understand each other, like that deeper understanding of what actually is happening on that level. And I think that's hard sometimes because I guess our clients think that, oh, we should just be able to flick a switch and change it. But but it actually takes a bit of a deeper dive into what's what's going on. And and I'd love to know from your perspective, and and what I'm I guess I'm speaking into there is the vulnerability

Vulnerability And Taking Off Armour

SPEAKER_01 7:52

piece. But why is it so important for couples to be vulnerable, you know, in in this type of therapy to get that change?

SPEAKER_02 8:00

Yeah, I love that question because it speaks to the heart of the matter, right? Yeah. The way I see that is that when couples get out of connection or they're defensive, they go into a self-protection mode. And so when you're protecting yourself or you're defending yourself, uh you show up with your armor on. And that armor is the coping strategies that you've learned in relationship. So you show up doing your best to protect yourself. But when you're self-protective, uh you're not going to be as open, as clear, as soft, as vulnerable. And so you then spark each other's defenses. If each person shows up self-protectively, then it just triggers the other to become self-protective as well, and vice versa. And so we see that as our primary focus in EFT is first getting to know that pattern that shows up when each partner is defensive and how they show up with their armor on, what it is that they do, and how that triggers the life out of the other. And we call that the cycle or the negative pattern or the dance or whatever resonates for people, but we get to know that pattern because it's the pattern that creates the disconnection, not either person. And so the antidote to the disconnection that happens in that pattern is slowing the process right down. And as you're saying, what is it that's not being said, or what is it that's really going on underneath? So we slow, we create a lot of safety for people to share what's not being said, or the softer elements, like we help them show their tender underbelly. And when they do that, well, it pulls for an entirely different response from the other. They have to feel each feel safe, like got to take off their armor and each feel safe to mutually risk. But when people do that, when they reveal the softer, tender underbelly of what's really going on, then they're showing up with their vulnerability and their outstretched hand. And if the other does that, then it's like two outstretched hands meeting to form a bond. Or I like the Velcro analogy, that that vulnerability is like one side of Velcro. And when the other partner reaches with their vulnerability and meets them there, it's like two sides of Velcro that bond the relationship together. So vulnerability meeting vulnerability is how we help people build their bond.

SPEAKER_01 10:28

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, like the the Velcro analogy. I can I just pictured that as you were saying it. Yeah, it's beautiful. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:36

I think you gave us a picture of two echidnas, maybe trying to connect, but their spikes are out. And is that a similar sort of a similar analogy where when your protection's out, then we can't connect. We miss, you know, for a lot of people, I guess they they want to connect, but they they can't seem to work it out. So I wanted to ask you, does it like do you do you work with couples that can never get their armor down? Like, does that actually happen for you? Because it has totally.

SPEAKER_02 11:08

Oh, you imagine if I said, oh no, every couple I work with, I can get them to take their armor. No, of course not. No, sometimes, sometimes there's just really good reasons for people to stay very self-protective. Whether those reasons are from the past and someone's been so badly hurt that it's really tricky for them to pull in those prickles or take off their armor. They might have learned that if they reveal their tender underbelly, that really bad things happen. So sometimes it's from traumas in the past that can make it really, really tough for somebody to pull their prickles in and to risk being vulnerable. And other times the relationship itself is just not safe. You know, like you can easily say you've got to pull your prickles in and be softer, but unless there's the context between partners is safe, it might actually be really sensible for you to keep your armor on and your prickles out.

SPEAKER_01 12:02

Yeah. Yeah, it's a good point, isn't it? Yeah, because I think sometimes we get trapped into thinking that um, you know, just you should just be able to do that. Just take, you know, because I guess for me in a secure relationship, and you know, sometimes I it it it's hard to imagine what that could that feeling is like to take your prickles down and to you know open up your your um protection and and being able to be vulnerable. Um, yeah, I can imagine that for some people it's just not not worth it, I suppose, because it doesn't feel safe. Yeah, yeah. That's so true.

Resentment And The Relationship Ledger

SPEAKER_00 12:36

And resentment, let's let's talk about resentment because I think resentment plays a factor in this too, right? Like, I mean, if there's been history in this relationship where things have been maybe unresolved, how does that play into healing the relationship?

SPEAKER_02 12:51

Yeah, I feel like resentment is a really interesting one. And the really optimistic romantic part of me says, well, resentment is the byproduct of being caught in a cycle for a long time, where the signals get scrambled, the key parts get missed, and you feel disappointed again and again. And so resentment is the byproduct of so many misses, and it's like you wear almost a callus there, and you have to harden yourself a little bit so you don't keep getting so disappointed. So the optimistic part of me says, let's catch and identify that cycle. Let's help you slow it down and help you send different signals, let's help you impact each other in different ways so that you can meet each other. And then that regrows the hope. Like the the friction that was causing the callus gradually wears away and you soften, right? Just like when you've had a pair of shoes rubbing on you. That's that's how we hope EFT works for people is that we track and exit those patterns that cause the disconnection and we help you build a new way of reaching and responding that restores the security and that strengthens and grows even more security between you. That's that's the aim of EFT. But sometimes I feel like resentment can build a wall between partners where we may have one partner consistently giving more than another, uh, or they feel like they've asked for their needs to be met over and over again, or they've asked for specific changes to be made, and or they've made a request that just gets dismissed, and somehow nothing changes. So they feel unheard or overlooked, and that that hurts. Like that starts to wobble the security in the bond, it makes you start to see the other differently, it starts to change the context between partners. And so I feel like resentment is that very sad byproduct then of not feeling seen or heard or felt. It also indicates a reduction in the goodwill. So if we think of the stretch in the bond, it's like it becomes brittle and frayed, and things no longer go through to the keeper. Each time someone lets the other down or dismisses or or doesn't hear or their request is overlooked, it frays and snaps the bond that there isn't stretch. So the goodwill starts to go, and with that, people don't want to sacrifice anymore for the relationship. They start to harbor a laundry list of look at all these things I've done, and what am I getting back? Like it takes away the team spirit, it takes away the willingness to give, to sacrifice, to take, to knowing that it's going to equalize in time. It starts to create a ledger where the resentful partner is feeling like this is not coming up in my favor at all. In fact, this is costing me more than it's giving me. So I think of resentment as a protest that's then gone cold. Like they have protested and protested, they've given up, and now the goodwill is gone. So it's very dangerous for the bond. It's an extremely negative prognostic indicator because it precedes burnout and detachment. Like you can't live like that for a very long time without eventually that goodwill fizzling all the way out and they burn out and then they naturally start to detach.

SPEAKER_01 16:17

So is that an indicator then, if they're at sort of that point that you think it's too far gone for the repair to even take place?

SPEAKER_02 16:26

Well, look, I don't like to ever say it's too far gone.

SPEAKER_03 16:30

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 16:31

But sometimes sadly it is, right? Like I think if you can start having new conversations and if there's openness to hearing and willingness to own each person's part in the pattern and that has caused the disconnection, if we start to have a new meaning frame around why those requests were overlooked or dismissed, like maybe someone else's defenses were triggered and they weren't hearing, they were enveloped in their own stuff. Like if there's some alternative narrative that makes it more palatable and understandable, and partners can start to find their way back to each other, and that trust regrows through actions, not words, then I think you can turn it around. But it does require that goodwill and willingness on both parts.

SPEAKER_01 17:15

I heard two things in our son of it. Yeah, the big key things that I feel like I want to just draw out of what you shared, Claire, is the the accountability piece, you know, taking responsibility or ownership for your part that you play in that is such a big key for that for those couples to kind of come through those sorts of resentment issues. And then the other the other thing was um that last part now I've forgotten it. Taking accountability and oh having an alternative narrative or having a different understanding of what that meant to you and then it then um being able to move forward from that point.

SPEAKER_02 17:54

Yeah, yes, because if you just harbor an idea that your partner just doesn't care, or that they're deliberately being hurtful, if you hold on to that rigidly, that's very hard to open yourself up to someone who you you're convinced doesn't care and who actively wants to hurt you, like that, all every fiber of your being is going to say, do not trust, do not open yourself to this person. They're dangerous. And if that's what you really believe, then how do you regrow a bond from there? Like you need some alternative explanation. Like it seems like my partner doesn't care when they ignore my request. But now I'm starting to understand that what feels like ignoring to me is them going into themselves and panicking internally. Like actually, they care so much about getting it wrong that they get paralyzed, and all I see is inaction, which looks like they don't care. But now I know so much more about the paralysis that happens inside for them. It's because they care so much. Suddenly, that is much easier. It doesn't mean that you have to accept that they're never going to respond to you, but it does mean you can hang in there and work on it together so that you can signal in ways that they might be able to respond to more easily without getting so paralyzed. You can work on it together then.

SPEAKER_01 19:16

Yeah, slowing things down is the key. Hey, I can imagine the importance of why. I know you always share that with us, just slow things down. But if we can slow things down, then we can find that deeper understanding of what you were just sharing, you know, what was really going on for the other person. Because often in life we just, you know, move forward next, next, next, you know, and don't don't think about like uh the opportunity to actually really get into the problem by just taking our time and step by step, what was happening for you? What what did you think here? How did that feel for you? And and allowing the each each of the individuals to even um inquire into themselves in that process too. Yeah, yeah.

Addiction And Hidden Individual Problems

SPEAKER_00 19:55

It actually just reminded me of a couple that we worked with early on, um, and they had obvious deep resentment in the relationship and mistrust, and they were wanting to both work on the relationship, so that part was there, but then once we started to unpack what hurts for each other, um, one of the hurts for her was that he is drinking in the afternoon, and so we found that we came to this kind of point where she would request that I would love it if you stopped drinking because it actually changes your behavior even though you don't believe it. Um, it smells on your breath, so I don't want to have any intimacy with you. Um, and they're my reasons, and so his body language was kind of crossed arms, sort of, yeah, I'm I'm not sure about this. And when I contacted him in privately, he said, I just don't trust that if I give up drinking, that it's going to change anything. I don't trust that she's actually going to change in any way. So I'm not willing to change my behavior because I don't I don't think that it's going to change anything. So basically, heels in, you know, I'm not willing to change. I want to see her change. And, you know, it just it just becomes this uh ledger, I think you used was a word um that you used. And and yeah, it it just became calcified, and we we we just weren't able to move through flexibility. There wasn't wasn't that wasn't available. Um, so that's you know, that's something that just came to mind when you were speaking about resentment.

SPEAKER_02 21:41

Yeah, I love that word calcified, because you can really feel the heels going down, each person being self protective, and this unwillingness to be open and to see. Yeah, try the experiment and see what happens. And but that also speaks to another issue that can happen in competition. Therapy where uh there is a problem that really resides in one person that ends up somehow in the lap of the whole relationship. And like drinking, for instance, like if there's an unacknowledged, untreated addiction in one partner, it's amazing how often that shows up as a relationship issue. It plays out in in couples therapy, and yet you can't actually do anything about that. Like she shall she can do is request what she would really like, uh, but she's maybe bumping up against a needed coping strategy for him, and and he's saying, I can't give up that because I haven't really acknowledged the the role that's playing for me in propping me up. And and maybe, you know, he's not ready to actually explore why he can't put that down to create an experiment to see whether she comes closer. Because I'm hearing rigidity there, and when we hear rigidity, it's like, oh, that must be helping you in some way, that's serving some role that you're not ready to give up.

SPEAKER_01 23:08

Yeah, yeah, it's a big key, isn't it? Because, like you said, it's there's an underlying reason why he's using that coping strategy. So that needs to be explored, I suppose, prior to the relationship stuff, if he's willing or if he even wants to acknowledge that. Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 23:24

Yeah, and so that that individual issue of oh, I'm not ready to acknowledge how much I need alcohol to get by, becomes a relationship issue of I'm not going to give up that thing because I don't think she's gonna come forward. And so then we're looking at this tit-for-tat relationship ledger, which feels like the opposite of the flexibility and goodwill and and vulnerability we want to foster. And all of that kind of distracts from this other issue of what's my relationship to alcohol, and how do I feel about that? Yeah, we see that a lot though, don't we?

SPEAKER_00 23:56

We're part of it, you know, like something at least. Yeah, and and addictions are I I think every human being has some addiction, you know. Like I think they're more common than people realize. Um, some of them obviously more harmful than others, but yeah, it just adds that another layer of complexity because it's obviously the individual's strategy, you know, that they're using to deal with the world currently. Um, and like you said, when you're in a relationship, you know, it it becomes enmeshed into that dynamic as well. So yeah, it can be can be really tricky. And I know a lot of listeners um that are listening to this have, you know, either addictions or partners with addictions. So I'm glad that we went into this space um just briefly because um it is a prominent issue that's uh that's largely unspoken about um and the impact on on the relationship for sure.

SPEAKER_01 24:46

Yeah, yeah. I'd

Secure Attachment And Insecure Strategies

SPEAKER_01 24:49

love to um dive into um a little bit about like because you were saying at the at the beginning, um, when you have a secure, Stu Johnson mentioned when you have a secure attachment, you have you know open communication, you have flexibility, you have this. So, what happens when you don't have secure attachments in a relationship? Or can you yeah, just open up into that?

SPEAKER_02 25:12

So when I think about secure attachment, I think about what are we really wishing for the couples we work with? And we're wanting that stretch and bend and flexibility in their bond. We're wanting to we want them to know that they have each other's backs, that they can express their needs clearly and be there for each other, that they can take turns with who might need a bit more at any given time in the relationship. We want to be able to foster the uh each person's individuality, that they can be their own person and they can know what's their stuff and they can own their stuff and not bring it all to the other to solve and hold. But we also want to also foster their ability to co-regulate so they can turn to each other when life gets bumpy. So secure attachment is the ability to turn to others when needed, to self-regulate when needed, to be able to trust in yourself to be able to cope and take in what life has to offer, but also trust in others to be there when you need them too. So that's that's what we're hoping to grow. Clear signals coming from connection to yourself that helps the other know how to show up for you, and vice versa. Insecure attachment is when that all goes a bit awry and the bond gets like calcified. I love that word, Michael, that that sort of rigidity where the goodwill starts to erode, the connection starts to get frayed. And so that is usually because people are showing up with an insecure attachment strategy as their armor or their prickles. And so they'll either be showing up with an anxious attachment strategy where they get um bigger, louder, they turn up the heat of their emotional signals, they protest distance, they try really hard to pull the other close, but they often do that in ways that end up pushing the other even further away, sadly. Avoidant attachment strategies are when people tend to shut down, turn down the heat on their emotional signals, they try and cope independently and pull away from connection and try to become more fiercely self-reliant, which is hard on us as humans. We're not really wired for that. It takes a lot of effort. You can't really do it for that long before the cracks start to appear. And so typically we'll get partners with different attachment strategies in the same relationship. So one will turn up the heat and protest and amplify uh like a cry against distance, and the other will tend to shut down, move away, and try and self-regulate as a protest against the conflict, the damage, the kind of amplification, the rocking of the boat. And so we'll tend to get a push-pull dynamic where an anxiously attached pursuer will turn up the heat and the avoidantly attached withdrawer will turn down the heat. And that's the most common cycle that people will get caught in. Uh, and then we can have two avoidantly attached partners together where no one raises anything, which works fine so long as they're not tested. And then you can have two anxiously attached partners together where everything becomes an explosion or a huge deal, and they tend to be have really explosive fights that cause a lot of devastation. So I I'm not sure if that answers your question around how it becomes insecure. I think I might have drifted. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 28:26

No, yeah, that's that's great. It's well explained, and I think there's a I actually I wanted to ask you this. Like, do you have numbers, like a percentage of people that are securely attached?

SPEAKER_02 28:38

Oh, I don't know off the top of my head the percentage of how many people are securely attached. I do know around 80% of relationships in distress have a pursue withdrawal dynamic.

SPEAKER_00 28:51

Ah, that's a good statistic.

SPEAKER_01 28:53

80% of relationships in distress have that's the most common. Yeah, interesting.

SPEAKER_00 29:00

Yeah, yeah. Which which makes sense to us, I think, because that's the most common, the most common dynamic for us that we work with. Um, so so that makes a lot of sense. Um awesome. I think that's great to just sort of round out the I guess the the role that EFT plays, and also a little bit about attachment without going deep into theory.

Narcissism Misused As A Label

SPEAKER_00 29:23

Um, and there was a workshop that we attended with you, and I wanted to I wanted to ask you about narcissism and and how this plays out in relationships. And we attended a full-day workshop with you, and it was amazing and really insightful, and we've we we've grabbed so much of that over time. I think it's just integrated, and interestingly, um, there have been relationships that we've worked with, but for me, more predominantly, um individual men um that are experiencing narcissistic traits in their partner. And I'd love to just explore this because narcissism is a term that's thrown around everywhere right now. Like we hear about it, we see it everywhere, everyone thinks they can just diagnose their partner immediately based on an Instagram that they saw or something like that. What is it that people often misunderstand about narcissistic traits and narcissistic personality disorder? Is there like misunderstandings there?

SPEAKER_02 30:26

Yes, I I think there's a sense that anyone who disagrees with you is narcissistic. There's this real feeling that yeah, anyone who's kind of um setting a boundary or saying no or not agreeing with you, they get called and narcissistic, which feels a bit harsh. Um, so that I think, like all therapy terms, when they get overused, they no longer have any meaning.

SPEAKER_03 30:54

True.

SPEAKER_02 30:54

And also, I think our culture and social media certainly promulgates this idea of self-promotion and speaking with confidence, and that can then get called narcissistic as well, which I think is a bit harsh. So, I mean, I think the biggest thing is that narcissistic personality disorder is a clinical diagnosis, it has to cross all domains of a person's life and cause significant impairment in their social, occupational, and relationship functioning. So we're not talking about just someone who's a bit of a jerk. Um we're talking about someone who is through their own enduring personality traits, it's causing problems in all domains of their life. It has high comorbidity with depression and substance abuse. Um, so it's not a place where someone like it's not a label to just throw out there easily.

SPEAKER_01 31:48

Yeah. Yeah, it's really important, I think. So can you help our audience understand what are some of the traits of of an actual like narcissistic um relationship? Let's just put it in broad terms, someone who is in a um relationship in that space.

SPEAKER_02 32:04

Yeah, okay.

Grandiosity Entitlement And Gaslighting

SPEAKER_02 32:06

So so maybe if we make the distinction between narcissistic traits rather than narcissistic personality disorder, because yeah, I think that's probably easier because I think we all have elements of everything in to varying degrees. And so if we're talking about narcissistic traits, we're talking about someone who has a lot of insecurity in their sense of self and they compensate for that by trying to be dominant. So uh they need to feel superior, they need to feel better than other people, uh, they have this belief that they deserve really good things and so should only really hang out with other really high status people. So they'll run down other people who might be successful, they'll minimize other people's efforts, and then they'll idolize others and want to identify with them. And then they'll quite quickly devalue or denigrate if it doesn't serve a purpose for them. So ultimately, everything's all about them and about trying to maintain this inflated sense of self. So this is what we call grandiosity, trying to be very shiny and needing others to acknowledge that, to acknowledge their specialness. Uh, and so they're very sensitive to slights, to feeling that they're not getting what they deserve or being treated in the way that they feel entitled to. So we have grandiosity and we have entitlement, like I'm entitled to good things. And the way that plays out in relationships is that it becomes very one-sided, and there's often this sense of my needs matter more, I have to be comfortable, my comfort trumps everything. And there's often a fair bit of manipulation to get those needs met. So they won't just come out and say, This is what I want or need, they'll sort of manipulate the other into that. So they're getting their needs met, perhaps in more covert ways. Sometimes, other times it can be really overt through direct control. There may be gaslighting where they govern reality, like my view of reality is the only view of reality, and anything that challenges me, I'll just dismiss or deflect. Uh, so that leaves the other feeling in a very weakened position where the other is setting the rules, their comfort trumps everything. There's a lot of impression management in the person with narcissistic traits. So they need to appear shiny and they need to be right and they need to know the most and be the smartest in the room, and they need to be puffed up, and everyone else needs to be giving them their due. So all of that creates a fairly unpleasant environment for partners and family members who who kind of have to fit in around that. It comes from this deep-seated sense of insecurity and this need to uh wear their grandiosity and entitlement as like a suit of armor. So it's like a coping strategy for the narcissistic person to regulate their self-esteem. That's tough on relationships.

SPEAKER_00 35:04

It's massive. Yeah, I just love how you've how you've rattled that off. It felt like I was just back in that course again. And and I think it's I think it's the way that you describe it. There was like as you're describing that, I'm also putting myself in their partner's shoes, and I'm thinking about what's that person going through. Like um, the some of the the men that I've been working with, they seem like they almost hypervalidate, they're not nasty people, like they that they actually don't even say too many bad words about their partner. They're they're actually just almost in a nice way and a roundabout way trying to communicate how it impacts them certain things, but they'll they don't seem to really demonize their partner and and that just you saying that um that is saying so much already.

SPEAKER_02 36:01

Oh, look, I didn't mean to make a thumbs down. Uh that I think that with that, that's a really interesting point about who ends up with a partner with narcissistic traits.

Why Empaths Get Stuck

SPEAKER_02 36:14

Because often the partners that kind of are attractive to someone with narcissistic traits are the partners who are very empathic and who are quite compassionate and willing to see things from another person's perspective. It's it's actually quite uncanny how many mental health professionals end up in emotionally abusive relationships with narcissistic partners because of their ability to be empathic, to be compassionate, to look at things from another person's perspective, and also that deep belief in others' goodness and their ability to change and you know a willingness to be really understanding about the good reasons that people might do unpleasant things. And so as you describe your clients there, I'm thinking I'm not surprised. I've heard them described as empaths, partners that end up with narcissistically abusive other halves, uh, because they are willing to see it from the other person's perspective, and they also end up getting groomed throughout their relationship to not be judgmental or to not be selfish, or like they'll there's often these little messages that if they speak up and say what's not okay with them, they're somehow being really nasty to the other because that it's all about supporting the narcissistic partner. So the empathic partner ends up feeling like they're not entitled to their needs, they're not entitled to their boundaries, they're not entitled to protest, they kind of have to be endlessly understanding and accommodating, and they get rewarded for that. And so over time, because they don't want to be mean or harsh or judgmental, over time they get more and more understanding. So to hear them then explain in their own therapy, they can't even protest, like that's really sad, but it doesn't surprise me.

SPEAKER_00 38:12

Yeah. Yeah. And and the yeah, the the thing that I I kind of see, you know, with these these people as well, is that they do have a big heart, they do have passion, uh compassion and this openness about them to explore their own patterns and all those sorts of things, like accountability and all these things. But sometimes, like I'll I'll ask them just out of curiosity, like, do you feel like your partner is like you know, compassionate to you and like an understanding of what you're going through and and and and maybe that you know the difficulty that you're processing, and and do they take accountability for some of the things that maybe they didn't get right? And there's just silence and looking up into the sky and kind of like just thinking and thinking, and they can't really come up with anything, a lot of them, they can't come up with anything. And to me, what I also see is these men coming into the space without having they're in a fog, they're in such a haze, and based on some of the things that you've described, it's almost like their world has become just engulfed into focusing on the partner and what do they need, and so my needs don't matter. And I don't know, is that the foggy haze? Because I'm I that's that's how I describe it. It's like they're in this fog and they don't really know what's up and what's down.

SPEAKER_02 39:41

Yeah, I think that describes it beautifully, and it makes sense because the partner with the narcissistic traits has set the reality in the relationship, yeah, and it's all been focused on their needs and their comfort and their entitlement to those things, and so for the partner on the receiving end of that, it's destabilizing because often there's an internal crisis that starts to happen, like maybe the resentment starts to build up, like as we talked about earlier. I'm giving and giving, and this is not improving, and I'm doing all the things that should make you happy. And why are you still not happy? And what about me? Like, I'm actually struggling a bit here, but when I put that out, I don't get the same reaction that you get from me. And hang on, that doesn't really feel fair. Or I've talked to a friend or a therapist, and they're kind of puzzled, and I'm starting to think maybe this isn't okay, and that is very destabilizing. I think the fog is a beautiful description because the reality is set by the partner, and when you start to question and try to step out of that, it's confusing. Like, do I trust myself? Do I this doesn't feel right, but I'm not sure. I'm not used to tuning in and asking myself what I want and need. I don't even know what I want and need, and I don't even know whether my perspective is correct. When there's been years of gaslighting, which often there has, then often the person on the receiving end of that doesn't even know how to trust their gut or to trust their reality or trust their own perspective, so that they'll doubt it. So you can't underestimate the power of a therapist asking a question like that or a good friend asking a question like that, of saying, but what do you want? Or you know that's not okay. Like you know your needs get to matter here too. And what you're asking for is so fair and reasonable, like that reality testing, I think, is invaluable for people who've been gaslit and in that vortex of a narcissistic relationship for so long.

SPEAKER_00 41:48

So

Setting Boundaries And What Follows

SPEAKER_00 41:49

then after that, let's just say they're a little bit out of the fog because their friends ask that question and they're like, oh yeah, this is not normal, she says. And I respect that person. So that's that's interesting. Maybe, maybe I do need to kind of like be a bit firmer with what I need. So they found what they want, and now they've set a boundary with their partner. What do we expect might happen in that instance if for the first time they've actually had the courage to kind of set a boundary that that's not okay, or you know, this matters to me, or when you do this, this impacts me, and I don't want that anymore. What do we expect might happen?

SPEAKER_02 42:27

Oh, it feels so dicey, doesn't it? I think one of two things tends to happen. One is if the partner is, and this is often the case, that the partner is not narcissistic, but maybe neurodivergent, and they just didn't realize. Because neurodivergent people might just see things from their own perspective, might come across as quite self-centered or rigid and have no intention to dominate. They may just be kind of clumsy and a bit thoughtless and not putting themselves in the other person's shoes. And so when the other person says, hey, ouch, like that, that doesn't feel good, and actually that's not okay with me. And let me tell you why and what I really need, and I'm really hoping you can hear me because I want us to get stronger and I need to be able to survive in this relationship too. If that someone can say that and the other person is neurodivergent, they'll be shocked and they will care deeply. Because there wasn't the intention to dominate, there wasn't the entitlement that I'm entitled to you, I'm entitled to my comfort, and you're here to help me feel good. I'm main character energy here. That you won't get that in a neurodivergent partner, but you will in someone with narcissistic traits, they'll be outraged.

SPEAKER_00 43:40

Interesting.

SPEAKER_02 43:41

You're breaking the rules, you're going against the status quo. This relationship is set up to benefit me. And if we start to tilt the tables, I'm not happy with that. I don't like that, it doesn't work for me. And so it will go terribly sideways, and it becomes extremely clear then to the person that they're not going to get heard.

SPEAKER_03 44:00

Yeah. Yeah.

Can Narcissists Truly Change

SPEAKER_01 44:02

Massive. I I am curious, uh, have you worked or or been or seen success with someone who has been diagnosed um, you know, as a narcissist? Or like have you seen them change? And and I guess because underlying what you shared before is underlying the reason they have this behavior is because of an insecurity in themselves and you know, something else is obviously deeper that they're putting on this performance. So have you seen the the yeah, that person be able to see that in themselves and want to change and improve themselves?

SPEAKER_02 44:37

I have, but it's extremely rare. And this is the depressing part of narcissistic, particularly narcissistic personality disorder, because we're talking about an enduring, like your personality is an enduring part of who you are, and a lot of it is genetic. You know, you inherit your personality, you inherit your temperament style, you inherit those key features, and uh and another part of it is brain structure, and so you can't just change that. Uh so it's like you're asking someone to change their personality, so it's a big ask. They have to be very self-aware, they have to be very motivated to keep the relationship, and they need to really own their part of it, and that's that's a big ask.

SPEAKER_00 45:34

Yeah, well put. Yeah, it is a big thing, and um, and I don't know, my my belief is that it's probably a deeper thing. My belief is that we attract the partners so that we can see aspects of ourselves that we're not free in, you know, within ourselves. And maybe, maybe there's people that are in these relationships for a high reason, maybe they're there to learn something about themselves, and and it's but it's it's tricky to get out of this situation, out of this fog, out of this haze to get the clarity.

Support Systems Books And Therapy

SPEAKER_00 46:06

So, do you do you recommend getting help in that circumstance um from somebody else, uh, whether it's a friend, a therapist, a coach?

SPEAKER_02 46:14

Yeah, you you can't do it yourself, yeah, because you have been in a fog with somebody else setting the rules for a significant period of time. And for you to achieve this clarity that actually some of those dynamics are not okay, then you need support to be able to step out of it. You need other eyes on the relationship. You you to do it yourself, you just risk just going back into those old patterns that really suit everyone to a certain extent. Like it doesn't suit the person on the receiving end of the narcissistic abuse, but in a way, keeping the status quo does. So to change the pattern, you it's really hard. You need a lot of support, you need people around you, you need uh potentially a good therapist who can keep you seeing it, and you need good friends and family to keep you seeing it. You need to read good books, listen to podcasts, you need lots of support to keep seeing it so that you don't just get pulled back into it. And and your point about being drawn to relationships that kind of teach you a lesson or that are there, I think what often sucks people into these dysfunctional dynamics is self-abandonment. Like I'm willing to do what someone else wants or to put their happiness first to keep the peace. I don't speak up, I don't put myself forward, I abandon myself. And so the process of getting into the fog and coming out of the fog is a process of remeeting yourself and no longer abandoning yourself and saying, What I want to need matters. My health and my peace is more important than anything. And if this person doesn't support my health and my peace, then they're not the person for me. And I've got to do it for myself, and I got to have other people around me who won't let me abandon myself.

SPEAKER_00 48:18

And what a powerful life lesson that is.com.au is a really handy resource.

SPEAKER_02 50:04

Uh, but if you want to find a good EFT therapist to do any of this work, then uh we have a lovely clinic in Brisbane called the Brisbane Center for Attachment and Relationships, and that's at attachmentbrisband.com.au. And we have a whole heap of EFT passionate therapists working with individuals, couples, and families. Uh, in terms of uh books, I have books on relationship loss and books on attachment injuries, so I can give you the links to those. Uh but yeah, I would just say get a good tribe of people around you and some good podcasts to listen to. I love um oh Dr. Romini's one on narcissism. That's a really good one. Dr. Romini DeVassella, I think. That's just the more you can have to listen to and support, the better, the better.

SPEAKER_00 50:53

Yeah, yeah. Totally

Final Takeaways And Goodbye

SPEAKER_00 50:55

agree. Yeah, and thank you so much for sharing those. We'll drop them in the notes as well for listeners. Thank you, Claire.

SPEAKER_02 51:01

Yeah, oh, thank you for having me.

SPEAKER_01 51:03

Yeah, thank you so much. It's been really interesting. I could talk more and more. I was like, what about this and this? Yeah, maybe another time. Thank you. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 51:14

All right.