Our Story: How We Found Our Way Back to Each Other | Interviewed by Aaron & Greer

A relationship can look “fine” while you’re quietly falling apart inside it. We sit down with Aaron and Greer Christos in Tasmania and tell the real backstory behind our work as couples connection coaches: two little kids, shift work, resentment, and that heavy loneliness that creeps in when you stop feeling like lovers and start functioning like housemates.

We unpack the moment things changed: Amy wrote a letter that named her truth without blame, and it cracked open Michael’s provider-only program and the masks he didn’t even realise he wore. From there we talk about what actually helped, not just in theory but in lived experience: women’s circles, men’s circles, therapy-style self-reflection, meditation, and learning emotional literacy so hard conversations don’t turn into shutdown or explosion.

You’ll also hear the frameworks we now use with couples: why emotional safety is the foundation, how trust is rebuilt through consistent behaviour and clear communication, and why nervous system regulation matters as much as the right words. If you’re stuck in the roommates-to-lovers gap, navigating a trust breach, or trying to grow when your partner feels miles behind, this chat offers grounded hope and practical next steps. 
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Check out Aaron and Greer's podcast and access to their incredible work in the intimacy space: https://www.intimacyforcouples.com/

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Website: https://michaelandamy.com.au/

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If you would like to book in a private discovery call with us, here is the link: https://michaelandamy.com.au/call

Transcript

Why This Conversation Matters

SPEAKER_01 0:00

So we were interviewed by the amazing Aaron and Gria Christos from down in Tasmania, who are guides in relational psychology and embodied intimacy. Their work is amazing, super authentic. And that's what drew us to them. But they found us and we connected on this really cool soul level, actually. And what we found was that in a space, I guess in business where there can be competitiveness, um, there was none of that with these two. And we we just we just got on so well, and now we we support each other um through resources and communication and connection so that we can help more people to you know just drop into greater intimacy and connection with their partners. So in this episode, Aaron and Grit actually interview us and get an insight into where we came from in terms of like our relationship when it first started. What were the the big speed humps and barriers that got in the way of that connection and how did we get through it to now guide other couples through that same process? I'm sure you're gonna love it. Um, we certainly did love sitting down with this amazing pair. So we won't hold you any longer. Let's get into it.

SPEAKER_02 1:22

We're Michael and Amy, your couple's connection coaches. Our mission is to help couples thrive using a conscious and holistic approach. This podcast is for couples and singles who want to unlock their relationship potential and reconnect on a deeper, more meaningful soul level. We share insights, client breakthroughs, and personal stories to help move your relationship from surviving to thriving.

SPEAKER_00 1:48

Hello and welcome to this episode of the Awakened Intimacy Podcast. Today we've got another interview with another couple who also happen to be a married couple that are relationship coaches. It's Michael and Amy Stooth. It's a real honour and pleasure to bring these guys on, and they're going to be sharing their story, which is really beautiful. They went through a period of rupture and real disconnect at a really pressure cooker time of their relationship, and most importantly, they share how they navigated that, which required them to do their own individual work, and they talk about why that was so important. And I think a lot of couples can relate to where Michael and Amy were, and so there's a lot of value here. Their lived, embodied story, shares so many key insights that I think a lot of people are gonna relate to because reality is all relationships come under really pressing hard times, and Michael admits himself he was just playing out the program of being a provider. And when Amy had the courage to really stand up and name her needs and and what she was really wanting, and being courageous enough to speak to the lack of connection in the relationship, it really required them to grow, and they actually did that separately for a while, and then they came together and we speak about the importance of yes, the individual work, healing, growth, therapy, men's work, women's work as a prerequisite and maybe a soft introduction to come into a greater self-awareness and connectionship. Connectionship, that's actually a pretty good word. Relationship with our emotions and our inner world, and then what it takes to be able to repair, to be able to create intimacy within that realm of growth and healing together. So Michael and Amy are a beautiful couple doing beautiful work, and when Greer and I connected with those guys, there was no sense of competition, they were just so open, so willing to to talk and explore all of the intricacies and complexities of doing this work as a couple. So we really value their energy, their perspective, their wisdom, and there's a lot of value here in this podcast. So we hope you enjoy.

SPEAKER_03 4:33

So welcome, Amy and Michael. It's so nice to have you on our podcast. Thank you for being here.

SPEAKER_02 4:40

It's so great to connect with you guys again and grateful for you guys having us here. Thank you.

SPEAKER_01 4:44

Yeah, I love, I love that you guys are opening up this audio kind of experience for people, you know, to connect with you and the amazing work that you do. But we're so honored to be part of this.

SPEAKER_03 4:59

Thank you, thank you. And you know, we came across you guys um years ago when we were first like renaming our business and when we saw you, and it was really interesting because when we found your uh website, we were like, oh wow, these guys are like kind of doing what we're doing. And they sound like we're, you know, they sound like really aligned. And what we both noticed is that rather than feeling competitive or coming into scarcity, and there was Aaron that said, babe, they're probably like our soul brother and soul sister, like, oh yeah, like another couple on the mission for the right reasons, you know, doing it with integrity. And so I just want to start by uh naming that that that was our first impression with you both, and that's continued along as we've maintained these threads of connection.

SPEAKER_01 5:42

Oh, it's it's beautiful, thank you. And we've also loved the connection. We don't have a connection with other couples, coaches at all. And I guess like having the openness that I experience and we experience like you know, transparent openness. We've created a thread together where we connect and just see how each other are going, you know, in our facilitation in what we're doing together and and also just personally, and I love that. I think that you know that that just highlights that there's no competitiveness at all, like in this spot. It's it's really just cheering each other on. So yeah, it's it's definitely beautiful. Awesome.

The Pressure Cooker Years

SPEAKER_03 6:25

So let's start if you'd both to uh like to introduce, you know, how you came into your path and how you came on to be doing the work that you do and and share with the readers uh and listeners what it is that you're doing.

SPEAKER_02 6:37

Yeah, awesome. Should I start? Yes, and if I miss parts, you can pop in there. I will. Yeah, so I guess our journey's been a bit of a long one to get to this point of where we are in our relationship and and in the work that we're doing. But um, yeah, Michael and I met back in 2005, so it's like 21 years ago. Um, so we've been in a relationship all that time, and um it's definitely not been all roses and flowers, and it's not been um a journey where we thought, oh, let's end up as relationship coaches helping other couples. Like it's obviously found its path and its way, but um back in around 2011, 2012, things were going pretty rough for us. We had two little kids, um, and Michael's working full-time as a paramedic. I was working part-time as a teacher and juggling like two children, two to little little babies. Um, they were both uh about 18 months apart, 16, um, 20 months apart. So they're quite close. So it was it was a tough time. It was a really tough time. And in our relationship, really suffered for it. I think out of everything, um, we ended up kind of really getting becoming disconnected and getting really um lonely, I guess, ultimately in in a relationship where we thought this was not meant to be how it, you know, looks in the pictures. You know, it's like it's all good, it's all beautiful. We get married. We did a lot of travel when we were younger, we got married, we we had the babies, you know, we bought the we had the mortgage and we have, you know, tick, tick, tick, tick. But yeah, um, the relationship was really um, yeah, struggling. So it was got to this point of of real disconnect um for a couple of years where I was so soul searching ultimately. I'm like, what is this? Where am I? Who am I? Why am I in this position? And I think it was a little bit more of um my own journey into my own personal growth and self-development. I was sitting in women's circles, I was connecting with other mums, um, and I was kind of doing my own inner work. And I come to this realization where I was like, I don't want to be in a relationship like this. This is not how my life is. I was coming home really resentful, really angry. I was taking that out on the children, I couldn't understand why, but this is what everyone does. Like it was a really confusing time. So I went on a bit of a um, yeah, a bit of a journey into my own path and my who I was, and and I kind of I guess I lost my identity as becoming a mum. Like I didn't know who I was either. I'd become from a busy corporate sort of role into this full-time position, and I was like, this is what I wanted, but it's not what I wanted. And anyway, a lot of confusion ended up getting to the point where um I ended up writing a letter to Michael because I just I just couldn't be

The Letter That Broke Through

SPEAKER_02 9:28

here anymore in this space. I just couldn't understand how to reach him, I couldn't understand how to connect as much as I tried. So I wrote a quick letter. Well, not a quick letter, a long letter, and just went, I can't do this. Like something needs to change. I really miss us, I feel so alone. Um, I don't even know who you are anymore. I don't know who I am, like, how did we get here? Um, and thankfully, Michael read that letter and really took it seriously. It was something that I think really, well, I'll let you speak for that, but it really changed your perception and um understanding of where we were at too, right?

SPEAKER_01 10:07

Yeah, so um as a typical kind of you know, man who's just working full time, like I was just trying to be the provider for my family, you know, and I I actually maybe through that process missed Amy's suffering and just hoped it would wane and disappear. And it's interesting because I work with so we work with so many couples now where he's kind of like seeing that there's not much wrong. It's you know, I don't see that there's much wrong with this picture and how things are going. It's just that you're unhappy. So I'm here to make you happy. And this is actually where I guess looking back now, my reference point, how I looked at the relationship and whether things were going well is if Amy was happy or not. So when she was unhappy, which often she was in this phase, she felt isolated alone. I was away for eight days at a time. And when I'd come back, she'd probably hold a lot of resentment. So she'd dump that on me, then I'd feel like I'm really just also like, what am I doing? I'm busting my guts here, and then I'm I'm coming home and I'm treated with not really much respect and love and nurturing and care and all the things that I really desired in my wife and in our relationship, and she couldn't give it to me. She'd hardened um because she'd put her protections up and her and that and that looked like spikes out, and that felt like um coldness, and so it was destabilizing for me. And then when she wrote me the letter, that that just it just basically crashed my entire world um and made me kind of really reflect on well, how can I do it differently? Because I'm looking around and I'm not really seeing anyone else that's doing it differently. So yeah, I think I needed to start to look at my own patterns. And what was interesting is that this is when I started to learn that the feminine has this amazing superpower of intuition, and she can see my masks, and this is the thing that I was called out time and time again. But my ego wasn't willing to face that, right? Masks of a people pleaser, you know, giving my attention and love to other people around me, making sure I'm liked, and then not having much left here. Um, avoidance masks, um, masks of just being a joker, right? Just someone who kind of is just a funny guy and can't really connect with anyone, though, because that facade gets in the way. And and so, yeah, long story short, we ended up going on our own individual journey of soul searching, but but eventually we looked at the relationship and started to work on it together, and that's when things really started to change for us because we the the vulnerability was required then. It wasn't us doing our separate work. So now here we are, and and like we're we're loving what we do and doing what we love, and and it's and it's it feels effortless, it's not easy, like there's there's there's a lot of um challenge in there, but that's the thing that we thrive on, that's the thing that we love, is kind of seeing people that are stuck in the same predicaments as what we were, and and gently just guiding, you know, um the guiding them back towards each other in a gentle way while still um knowing that it's not going to be a a perfect smooth ride.

SPEAKER_00 13:53

Beautiful guys, thank you for sharing, and I can uh really feel the depth of where you guys have been and what you've had to traverse to get to where you are. And I've got a couple of questions for you both. And first, Amy, what was it that allowed you to summon the courage to actually write the letter? Because I know a lot of women end up in that position, but they just kind of sweep things under the rug, they just kind of settle for less, or they don't really summon the the willpower, the courage to actually name it. And then Michael, what I'd love to hear from you is what is it that actually allowed you to be open to that feedback? Because I know quite often when a man gets called forth or called out, it can get up his defensiveness and like, well, why should I change? Like, you're the one with the problem kind of thing, and the the finger gets pointed back at the other person. And just one other final question is when you both went on that individual journey and you said you're doing your own work, what did that look like? And then what what was different when you said you were working on the relationship and you came together? Like how was the individual work different from working on the relationship? So I know there's a lot there, but I really want to hear that.

SPEAKER_03 15:20

Yeah, great question.

SPEAKER_00 15:24

Love it. Great question.

SPEAKER_02 15:26

I guess that I think that the question that you asked me was like, what took the courage to to actually speak up about it and write the letter and and and um hand that over. And I think it took there's a couple of parts to that, I think the answer is. And and number one, it was like desperation. I didn't know what else to do. I I was never very good at speaking, like I couldn't find the right words. Like I would think them in my head and have all this amazing like presentation that I wanted to share with Michael, but I could it just didn't come through at that time. I didn't have the ability to speak and share my truth. So writing helped me to get it out on paper. Um, and it helped me to get it clearer as well, what I was really experiencing on the inside. And then there was a while there I wasn't going to give the letter to Michael. I was like, oh, this and I think this is my own thing, and I got in my head, and uh, maybe it's just me, maybe I need to get better, all that stuff, all that hesitation, that doubt, that fear, the anxiety of what would this mean if I gave it over. But um the other part of the the the courage was actually from friends. It was actually like from a really good girlfriend, and she was kind of helping me through this stage, and she was just like, it's your truth. You need to share it with him. It's really important that he hears what you're you're doing. So there's a kind of a, yeah, I was grateful for that opportunity for to have friends in that realm to help support me. Um, yeah, so there was a there's a kind of parts of that that answer, but definitely tricky if any of, you know, I can definitely resonate that it's a scary moment because that letter could have mean separation, right? But I was at the the brink of like, I don't have anything else here because I don't know any other solutions. And we weren't actively seeking counseling or anything like that because we didn't know about that either. I think this is like, you know, this is back in 2012 or no, 2013. I it doesn't seem like a huge amount of of you know relationship coaching out there anyway in our world. So yeah, it was no other option. I had to figure this out or or we'd break up.

SPEAKER_01 17:27

When I received the letter, I remember reading it in our bedroom on my own. And I think why I didn't maybe get defensive or you know, make it about make it about me, or or you know, blame her for her part in this and and go down this line of of further destruction was because of the language that she used in the letter. Like I I really remember that she was really speaking from her own experience. She wasn't blaming me, she wasn't pointing the finger, she wasn't saying you need to step up and you need to do this and do that. She was saying words like, I feel really lost, I'm lonely, I'm confused. I don't know like who we are anymore. And I don't know whether the current way that we're we're navigating through this time is sustainable, and I'm scared that we're actually going to separate. So those kinds of vulnerable words allowed me or allowed my heart, which was quite closed off at that point. Um, as Amy said, I was a paramedic. So I needed to protect myself, excuse me, I needed to protect myself from feeling because otherwise I can't be good in my job. It's no good turning up on a job and just you know, falling into a heap and crying. So I needed to stay stoic and strong. And yeah, what I noticed was I've got my wife here, my the mother of our kids, and and she's she's just really she's just really speaking from a vulnerable place. So that that helped me to stay open to her um and not be defensive. Um so from there, like how did we to your other question, like like what was the journey like from there? Like, yeah, how did it sort

Separate Growth Before Togetherness

SPEAKER_01 19:21

of go?

SPEAKER_02 19:21

The individual work, first of all, like I think I'd already kind of started on that bit of the journey. That's where I get, I guess I got the awareness of this wasn't right from the start. So that really helped like get me, uh helped me to be a bit more clearer. Um, so I was already kind of on that path, but I continued down that path a little bit deeper. Um, and to be honest, I think from that let point that letter and our individual work, we almost kind of became more separate, you know. Uh did you feel that? Yeah, yeah. Like I felt like we just kind of had to. I don't know, it's just like this evolution of where we're at. And we just kind of had to just like, look, I've got to do my thing, you got to do your thing, and let's just let's just hold the space to see if with this relationship can continue whilst doing this, you know. But it was never a thought in our mind that we were gonna break up. We were like, we'll figure this out. We know we will, but it was kind of maybe for a year of just just doing our thing, right? Yes, we we we'd also be okay in the relationship, but it wasn't um certainly flourishing or thriving or really feeling connected. But I kind of trusted, I don't know why, you know, hindsight. I look back and go, wow, that that was actually a pretty um individual time in our connection and our relationship. But I think I needed we needed to give each other grace to see if we could hold that and and go on that path because Michael was off on his sort of journey and I was questioning his journey where he was going. And I'm like, why are you going down that path? That's so interesting. But I just had to sit back and just let allow that. And I'm I'm grateful that I've um I was able to do that, and him for me as well. So there was this kind of um unspoken, I don't think we spoke about it. It was like this unspoken kind of understanding.

SPEAKER_01 21:07

I don't think we're at that point where we could communicate to the depths of what we can now of our own experiences, um, because of the remnants of defensiveness and all those, you know, those old patterns that we're still scared of. We didn't want to, things were fragile still. So um, but what I witnessed in Amy from doing women's work and what just just really being around women and being vulnerable and and sharing her experiences is that she'd come back and she'd be different. Like I noticed the way that she was talking to me. I noticed that there was a softening and a flexibility in the way that she was with me and just allowing me to kind of just be me a bit more and kind of so controlling, yeah. The controlling aspect that that triggers me wasn't as prominent. And so when I noticed that, I remember. Being a little inspired and thinking, you got women's groups. I got like friends, and we go to the pub or we just hang out or we just catch up and have a few beers. But what if men could have circles? Like, you know, what what if what if men got together and we didn't drink? Like, could could that be possible? Right. And this was back in 2015. So I didn't know of any men's circles back then. We were in an isolated community. I had a fair few friends here in town. But I remember something intuitively came to me, and that was to gather the men. And that was when I started meditating in 2015. And when I started meditating, this overwhelming feeling came through me that almost like a message that I need to gather the men together, but in a really in a different way. And I was so scared of this. Like this was something that was such an edge for me that I ignored it for a while. And then I started planting the seed with a few friends and saying, This is like the women, because our women, it was all our women, are going off in different circles. Well, what what if what if we went out for a camp out and we just didn't drink, like we just hung out? And I was so scared of planting that seed. But they all said yes. And we had 13 of us camping, no drinking, and we were the loudest ones at the campsite. Um, but we were we were well, there was depth, there was connection, there was realness, there was rawness. And I knew at that point that there's something in this, like there's there's something in not dwelling in the facade and just being likable. Um, there was something in kind of going, hey, like let's let's just share to another layer deep and just see how this goes. And so that was my journey. That was the start of my journey of of depth, you know, depth and connection and truth. Um, and then that richness came into our relationship where we could now communicate better, like we could, we could start to kind of like communicate vulnerably to each other. We it wasn't going to be used against us, you know. I really felt like um the the spaces the space was held for each other at that point.

SPEAKER_02 24:10

Yeah, I clearly remember a conversation. There was one conversation that we had one night that was different from any other conversation we'd ever have had. And we just did it organically and and openly. And I was just like, whoa, you well, that is different. Like this is something that's changed now. Like we felt heard, we each felt heard, even though it was like a really heated sort of topic that we would normally just separate and or flare up. And yeah, but we stayed there, we stayed present. Yeah, clearly, do you remember that? Yeah, yeah. So yeah, it was it was a big moment, and I remember like that's it, we've got this now, we we can figure this out. And and that's yeah, that was kind of when our relationship just started to eventually deepen and grow. And um, yeah, and and I guess we're here now in this space of helping other couples. And and it was through at the time Michael was doing his men's coaching, I was dabbling in the in women's coaching, and we both kind of were in um a business coaching container, but with our own businesses. And our mentor said, You guys need to work in relationships, and we were like, Whoa, no way. I'm like, I'm not going into relationships. I'm barely like figured this out ourselves, you know, how the heck can I help other couples? Just kind of that plant that seed was planted and the belief was growing, and we're like, let's give it a go. And so we we just started and and organically kind of just found our path now where we are.

What Couples Need To Reconnect

SPEAKER_03 25:38

Amazing. Yeah, yeah. Thank you so much. It's so good to hear more of the backstory because we knew some of it, but you're bottling layers there. I'd love to hear uh what you've noticed within your own journey and what you notice in clients when they come together just at the very start when their their journeys are coming together. What's some of the common um requirements? You've already spoken about the the vulnerability, the honesty, the willingness to stay in the in the stickiness. So some of the requirements and and then some of the gifts of that, of what what's the potential of uh and and you know, as background, I did a lot of women's work and Aaron had done a lot of men's work before we were in relationship. But in my previous relationship, I was doing the women's work, and and I just want to name the importance that if you're not in relationship with someone at all, or if you're not in relationship with someone who's ready to do the work, how powerful that men and women's work, and that's why we continue to offer that individually as well. But as you know, there's something that happens when you come together and the depth of vulnerability. It's one thing for me to be vulnerable in front of women, and I'm like I was like, oh my god, this is so scary, but then to do it with my partner, like wow, that's next level, especially like you know, for us with sessions because we have had mentors in our relationship when there's a couple looking on, we had a beautiful um um uh you know older couple who've spent many, many years, and it's a big thing to reveal what's happening not only with your partner, but then with other people listening. So what what is the gift of that and what what lies on the other side?

SPEAKER_01 27:26

Yeah, I think when when couples come to us, often they are both in with their protections and their guards up. So they the language that they use, the body language that they have, the tone, um maybe even the the memories of the past have created lenses with which they see their partner through that's often negatively biased. So when they come to us, we look for a couple of things. And I know for us, like and I'm sure you guys have your own process, and sometimes it's intuitive. For us, there's there's probably two main things. There's is there an underlying love underneath the protection? So can I can I see that you both still there's love there? It's just we can't work out how to connect. It's like two echidnas that that that that they love each other, but their spikes are just kind of getting in the way. And then the other thing is respect. If they still have respect there, there's still a respect underneath all of that. And if that's true, then we're open to this, you know, to helping them. But if it's not and the resentment's too deep, um, we have to be real. And you spoke about integrity, like this is where our integrity is is really, I feel is really strong, is that we we're very honest and clear with them that we're not going to say that this can't be fixed or helped or anything like that. It's just that we we, you know, we may be out of our depth with this. Like we don't we can't help you here, and and we can offer um referrals to to other people who we can recommend, but um but why it's important to, you know, you spoke about vulnerability and opening up the heart, and why that's like my judgment is that vulnerability is the only sustainable way to connect with your partner in the long term. Like, you know, we can change our behaviors and we can kind of speak nicer and we can do all these, you know, great behaviors, but uh underneath underneath that is is what I feel is is what matters because the bond, like that deep bond, can only be re-established through that. And and that's hard and that's tricky because vulnerability takes courage, right? And and like, will you catch me if I share this with you? Or will you become defensive and make it about you? And so there's this safety that needs to be established before that real vulnerability happens, and that's maybe perhaps what we were doing in our individual work, Amy and I. And then that that organically happened for us, but yeah, what we facilitate is a bubble of safety, and it's like this surrogate safety kind of like bubble wrap, so that they can we can actually pull things up if we need to, and um and help them to to show, hey, you know, I see that things got really hard for you there, um, you know, and then just teaching them about pausing and slowing down and you know, not not necessarily blaming or poking. And and why that's important is because if if we can help them to open up the you know their hearts to each other and then be held in that, then on the other side of that is sustainable depth connection, love, respect. Um, and it it's actually, I think it can be continuous and continuously unfolding, so like a maybe like a lotus flower or something like that. You just it just continues to evolve. And Amy and I are continuing to evolve our depth. And yes, we have moments where we disconnect, of course, like relationships are not designed to be perfect, but I feel like we're continually evolving, and that's because our hearts are now open to each other in moments where yeah, we were sharing something.

SPEAKER_02 31:38

I just want to quickly add, I think there's a point there that um when you were saying, Gria, like what's what's something that's a requirement for a couple to like step into the work together? And what I think is really important is they both have a desire and they both have a want to do it. Like, let don't let's let's not dance around the bush, but like relationships are hard. So if there, if there's like one foot in, one foot out, or there is like this lack of a hundred percent you know intentionality into wanting a better, happier, healthier relationship, then no matter what Michael and I do, and I'm sure you guys probably the same, but no matter what the coaches do or the counselors do, it's probably not going to really be sustainable or for the long term. So it's really that underlying, I don't want to give this relationship up. I want to be with this person and I will do what I need and and you know, turn up and show up the best that I can. So I think that's a really powerful piece for some couples if they're listening, going, Oh, are we like I've been doing my individual work and now I want this deeper relationship. I think it's also really important to reflect on on what is it that we that you want and how can you show up better for that relationship.

SPEAKER_01 32:51

And that includes accountability, right?

SPEAKER_02 32:53

Taking accountability, taking responsibility, yeah, yeah. A lot of that self-reflection, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 33:00

Yeah, and I think that's often probably the biggest block that people aren't really actually willing to confront themselves and get really honest with themselves because that can be really scary, because that could mean that facing the fact that they've been living a lie and they've been believing all of their assumptions or the lies that they tell themselves to justify staying comfortable, staying keeping it easy. And you know, what comes to mind and heart for me is how if we look to to nature, everything is either growing or decaying. And I think long-term relationships for that to be sustainable, for it to feel alive and connected, it requires us to grow, requires us to change, and and if we don't, then we stagnate. That's felt as a disconnect, it's felt as the land of bland being roommates rather than lovers, that kind of dynamic. And you know what I heard from your story is how you found the the skill, the capacity, and you also felt the power of opening up, getting honest and vulnerable, separate from each other in safe spaces. And then once you again the skill, capacity, and you know the the benefit of it, then you've come in together and and done that. And I think that's a really good model for couples that are like right at the start of the journey because the reality is in relationship, we're also in attachment, like there's more stake in the game with those deep vulnerable conversations. And while we're learning the skill, and while we're just building enough safety and security in ourselves to be vulnerable, it can be good to find that in spaces where there's no not so much skin in the game, there's not so much on the line, and then come in together.

SPEAKER_03 35:06

Yeah, and I think if I think back to when I started my women's work, which was I don't know, like it was a while ago, 20 2009, 2010 was it was a while ago, that none of my friends that I'd known for 15 years or so were there. So it enabled me to see there was no one else who was reflecting back that self, that persona, the the veils that weren't I wasn't consciously holding. So I didn't I didn't realize how A, I didn't even realize that I had the veils. And that's the problem with shadow and blind spots is that we don't see them. And and B, they were all really healthy, loving relationships, as I could see. So they weren't, I wasn't in toxic relationships. It was it was kind of all good, but it was only when I went into a completely new space where nobody knew me, nobody knew my history, my family, where I went to school, and I was asked these very deep questions, and I got to share in that very liberated space of people not knowing and me knowing I wouldn't hurt anyone's feelings and that they wouldn't take it the wrong way. And then not only me doing that and sharing those like deepest, most vulnerable, most raw things that perhaps I've never spoken that I had feared I'd be judged for for, but then also hearing these other women share these things, and there's something very happen powerful happens when I realize that I'm not judging them. These like big things, and that, as you said, that creates that safety. And I don't it I'm loving this conversation because I I think I had kind of lost touch of just how fundamental that was in my earlier journey, and that the the benefit again for any listeners who are in relationship and the partner's not yet doing the work, just keep keep doing your work because either you will, like with me, you know, that the relationship will get to a point where you're just actually no longer aligned. And um the more I found the more responsible and where I was, the more the more love that that relationship can can kind of dismantle and separate. And then it aligns you to meet a partner who is who is doing that work. So yeah.

SPEAKER_01 37:24

Yeah, I think with that, I love I love that, you know, what you've you've said about kind of how that up level happened within you. And what I see a lot of the time is this growth that happens within someone is all about self-worth. It's all about recognizing your own personal value. And then at some point, like you said, it's it's either going to make or break your relationship, it's gonna, it's gonna bring the relationship to this point where, okay, we both need to really lean in here. Or it's like I'm I'm done with this because I respect myself enough to not put up with or tolerate with this disrespect or the way that you treat me, or you know, whatever. Because the relationship in in my view is a mirror, which is just a like one of the most powerful mirrors for us to kind of see where maybe maybe we're not free within ourselves. And um, and so this is also what we we teach our couples, especially the ones that maybe have a bit more of an understanding about that and are really accountable and willing to kind of do their own personal work, is cool. Let's just use this relationship as kind of like a place where you can reflect back, you know, and and and challenge the ego, um, you know, challenge the identities, challenge the masks, um, and just see like how are they serving you? How is that behavior serving you? Like, and how do you see that like how does that impact your partner? Let's ask her. Um, yeah, and just really finding out those those pieces. And um, yeah, I think it's a journey of of of you know back to own individual self-worth.

When One Partner Grows Faster

SPEAKER_02 39:05

You know what I find really tricky, and I'm I'm curious about you guys, how you how you guys deal with this. Um is it okay if I ask you guys a question? Yeah, I'd love to know, like, um, if you get couples in a relationship and where you've had like one of the partners like doing a lot of self-work and the other ones probably not as such. I kind of actually I just want to speak into the fact that I find it a little gringy or what the word like work, you know, doing the self-work. I don't know why, but I feel like it's also sometimes we put a label on this and then we're like, oh, you're better because you're doing the work and you're less than because you're not. So I also want to speak into like everybody is on their own journey. And when I refer to someone doing their work, it's more like that they're like you were saying, Aaron, they're on their journey of growth, they're just evolving, they're growing. Um, and and yes, it feels sometimes like work, but it's also just part of life and our evolution because we're either stagnating or we're growing. So I just want to seek into that piece. But yeah, what do you guys um do in that scenario when that like couples come to you and one of them's really kind of on that growth journey and the other one's stagnant?

SPEAKER_03 40:15

Do you want? Yeah. Well, I I've got that inner the inner work thing that I want to speak to first. And I call it inner work because it is work. It's fucking hard. It's hard, but it's also like inner work, it's inner worth. It's just coming into this deeper truth. And um, and also 100%, I it's so important to not have that judgment. And you know, I could say that my previous partner, although he wasn't interested in inner work, he was very dedicated to his his business work and other areas of work. So it's not, um there's no there's not a judgment, it's just this recognizing are you is your focus, where is your focus? And are those focuses and those um those values and those deeper desires and needs within self and relationship are they aligned? And because if they're not, it's problematic. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:09

And I think if if doing the work puts oneself on a pedestal and thinking that we're better, then you've got more work to do. Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 41:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 41:20

Because really, self-worth isn't about being better than other people, because it just to the same degrees it's not being less than others, it's about fully owning who we are, loving who we are, accepting our limitations, but also owning our gifts. Now that's part of the the work. And when it comes to relationship, it becomes an invitation. It's like, you know, this is what this person needs and desires. Are you guys aligned here? Is this what you need and desire? And getting really clear on that and getting on the same page in terms of values, vision, alignment of beliefs, and because ultimately really growth is about unwinding our patterns of behavior that are unconscious, and usually our conditioning and just what we picked up from our family or our culture, and undoing that conditioning to get more congruent with who we really are and our truth and our essence, and having the courage to live from that space. And because we're undoing patterns, those patterns are also in relationship. So the person that's doing that, they're gonna stagnate, they're gonna be limited by how much growth they can have at some point if they're not met with someone who's willing to look at those patterns and undo those unhealthy dynamics. And this is why it triggers uh doorways to intimacy, understanding, growth, healing. They're also like really challenging. They're happening for a reason, and yeah, this is why you know our path has been one not necessarily about getting to a point of you know serious conflict. It's what brought us together was this shared passion for growth, and we started as friends, so we had that we cultivated that safety with each other and ultimately in this intimacy, yeah, and ultimately our work together has been helping each other reclaim our enughness and moving through our shame and being lovable for who we are and not what we do, essentially. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 43:47

Yeah, and and in terms of you know how we work with a couple who, if there's one of them, you know, is in one of them. Firstly, it it's natural to have one person being the leader. And what we've realized over time is A if a couple wants to come on a private retreat with us, we now require them to have an alignment call. We've made the mistake of having some couples come on without that, and we've recognized that it it's it's that integrity piece. It's this actually isn't what you're needing or wanting or ready for, and it's not going to serve anyone. And uh B that um the the couple will kind of get what they're what they're ready for, and it's part this is also why we're looking at actually restructuring some of our programs at the moment, because we're recognizing that it's actually quite few couples who are both really ready to go all in, and that it's a lot to ask. It's a lot to ask financially, but also time investment and really, you know, people have lives, and if they're not both all in, it means that they don't sign, you know, don't sign up because it's too much. And so we want to be able to meet couples where they're at better by kind of offering like what's the core primary need? Here you go, here's this part of the program. And so that's something that we're restructuring at the moment. Um, yeah, because if not, if if one of you it again, it's natural to have a leader, but if you're not actually both in, it's not gonna, it's not gonna work. And that's why for the deep bigger programs, we require an alignment call now, just to make sure that that's the right fit for them.

SPEAKER_02 45:22

Yeah, yeah, it's so important. Yeah, I I I don't know, I have so much empathy because I think I was in that position as as the leader in our relationship and really wanting this to change. And and when I see other couples that their partners not so welcoming on board or not so, you know, like Michael was, then I'm like, oh, it just breaks my heart. But then I also trust that this is kind of what is meant to happen in their evolution of their relationship as well. So, you know, I guess being in this work, we're impass, you know, we we care and we we want the best for for people. But sometimes, like you said, I think it's a it's a good indication if the values are off, if their desires are off, if they're if they're not really aligned in what they're wanting underneath, then yeah, it maybe is a is a reflection of looking deeper into yeah, what is the future of this relationship like? So yeah, I just wanted to to speak to to that in case anyone any of the audience is listening, because we often get that, like we often get the one person reaching out for help, like oh, my partner won't do this, my partner's not looking at it. So we've just kind of started to um yeah, offer some other solutions for that person as well.

How Long Does Repair Take

SPEAKER_03 46:31

Yeah, I have a question. Do you yeah? So I'm curious, and this is a little bit like um how long is a piece of stream, but what do you find? If a couple comes to you, I it depends on where they're at as to what they need, but have you found that there is a particular time frame that couples need if they really, you know, because all couples, even like for us, as Aaron said, we didn't come, we came together and we went deep into the work together from the get-go. So we didn't come with a history of a shared relationship, but we still had our childhood history in our previous, you know, so we had there was still a lot to work through. Have you found that there is an amount of time of when you work with a couple that is really that a couple really needs this amount of time if they really want to go there?

SPEAKER_01 47:17

I I can only think and speak into what the type of demographic of couples that come to us. And so typically speaking, you'll get any people from generally from early 30s up to 60 um years of age. Um, they've been in a relationship with each other for probably 15 years or more. They've got kids together. Um, kids are probably close to maybe either young or the teenagers or even adults, young adults. And the the the roommate energy, which you mentioned before, Aaron, is sort of like a um that that that's that's the void that they're stuck in. It's normally distance, disconnect, it's it's disengagement um and separateness that sort of you know crept in. They they're longing for connection again, but it's awkward and they don't really know how to get back. And sometimes there's tension and and communication sort of suffering and struggling. So for a typical couple like that, like we use 12 weeks as a benchmark, but it can't it there's no guarantees, like, and and the reason why um is because the first thing that we look to establish is emotional safety, and there's no guarantee of even that stage being achieved. Like we've worked with couples where we can't get them to the point of emotional safety, and yeah, there's times when I look at us and go, Wow, are we doing enough? Are we certain like serving them enough? But the truth is sometimes the resentment cuts so deep and the lens is so like you know, obscured with this negative negative sentiment override that it's actually almost impossible for them to kind of open their hearts again. So, um, but for the average couple, we we get through that stage, um, you know, and and hopefully within four weeks. Um, and then from there, uh, yeah, generally how we see things happening is once the emotional safety is there, which to me means I can be myself without fear of criticism, rejection, um, these kind of things, then then then we can start to move into structures and frameworks and kind of like, okay, cool, let's just build the framework now. Like, how do you communicate? Um, then we can move into intimacy and and and sort of like the deeper, the deeper stuff. But until the emotional safety is there, we can't move on. Like it's yeah. So generally speaking, we base it on a on a on a 12-week, you know, process. Um, but sometimes that can be longer where couples work with us like maybe just once a month after that for a while, um, just to to really ingrain and integrate some of these learnings. And um, yeah, sometimes it takes a lot longer. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 50:09

Yeah, we found the exact same thing. All right, yeah, just and in terms of yeah, we've come to like six uh uh core needs of awakened intimacy, we called it, and it it's kind of like a pyramid, but they all dovetail into one another. But uh what we know for sure is that foundation is yeah, safety and security, and uh the thing with rebuilding trust is it it takes reps, it takes evidence, and it's really easy to break and damage. It's like one of the easiest things to to damage and break, and one of the hardest things to rebuild and repair. And it takes reps, and that's something that I I share with couples is like if you need to rebuild trust and safety with one another, you're gonna have to provide evidence. It's not something you can just affirm. It needs to be backed up with behavior, and it's a skill that can be learned, but ultimately you're gonna be confronted with real vulnerability, um, a lot of fear because your system, your nervous system is expecting a repeat of the past, and you got to deal with your own body and shaky nerves, and you gotta be able to contain that and be with it, but also not let it run the show. So it's it's really big and it is the foundation we've found.

SPEAKER_03 51:45

Yeah, we tend to teach the the safety and trust and vulnerability like an infinity loop. And so if I want to trust Aaron, I have to be willing to be vulnerable. And then it's almost not a test, but it it's like it's an opening. And if he meets me, then that closes that trust loop. And so then I might take a bigger vulnerability. But again, if I get out all that to here and then I'm met with nothing, oh, I'm back back here again. And as as you shared earlier, having a call and having um you know guides uh uh to support the couple, we become that safety container to support them in the moment so that if it's starting to go downhill, we can stop. Wait, take a breath, let's come back and it's needed. It's that that scaffolding and that support structure is needed if a couple you know are wanting to rebuild.

SPEAKER_02 52:38

Yeah, it's such a game of nervous systems, I think. You know, it's really is relationships, you know. It yeah, if we can get better at regulating our own nervous system and staying in that discomfort and being there with our partner when they're sharing something that might feel triggering, or yeah, yeah, it's it's yeah, so much to it, isn't it? You know, there's so many layers and learnings and um retraining, I guess, ultimately um is what's needed for a healthy relationship.

Trust Breaches And Nervous Systems

SPEAKER_01 53:06

The one thing I love about you guys, and this is where where we've sunk into in recent years, is that there is an element of intuitiveness that needs to come into this process too, because we can sit here and teach a 12-week program, right? We can just sit here and give the cookie cutter. This is what you need to do, this is how you speak to each other, this is the communication strategy, just do these things and it'll be better. But everyone has their own individual wounds and things that crop up, right? So, like being live on a call with people that understand this dynamic is I I can't even like I can't even put a value on that because like I don't know, like we just spoke speaking with a couple recently, multiple trust breaches, infidelity both sides. Um, that's happened historically, and now her nervous system is expecting him to do the same thing again. And so he's going to the gym, and it's you know, his ex-partner or someone he's been with is he's also going to that gym. Now, in her mind, like she's thinking he's going there to hook up with her, no doubt in her mind. She's getting her nervous system sending her messages, she's starting to kind of like imagine it as if it's already happening right now. He comes home, he's getting ready for the gym, he cops an explosion. He's like, That's completely unwarranted. Where did that come from? So she's in fear and doubt and scarcity and all these things. And so the way that she manages that is she controls and like gets angry, gets explosive, gets like really, really loud. That's the very thing that triggers him. And he's just basically said, F off, I'm done, right? Like, I don't need to put up with this. So her nervous system was communicating to her that there's something threatened here, and so the very thing that she's really holding on to is now completely in her mind. She's made up a story that it's capitulated. That wasn't really happening, but the nervous system is sending that message, so yeah, it just shows, like what you said, Aaron, that trust can just be built up in it, but there's so much fragility in there where it just takes a moment, you know, to just like crash the whole thing down again. And so that's why it's so precarious when there's been trust breaches. It doesn't necessarily mean fidelity, trust breaches of saying you're gonna do something and you don't do it. That's me. This is the things that like in integrity you spoke about. I'm still working on this stuff, like I'm still like, you know, at times letting Amy down, letting friends down. Like I I don't know why this pattern is is there for me, and I'm definitely way better at it, but you know, I can see the impact on it now. I can take ownership on it, I can do my best to kind of get better at it, and that's really what what I think that this is about. It's not getting being perfect, it's having the willingness to look at myself, reflect, and then say, Yeah, yeah, I see that. Yeah, and I see your hurt from that.

SPEAKER_00 56:18

Beautiful, yeah, beautiful. One final thing I want to add into that is you know, you mentioned how we've all got our personal, unique traumas and history and stories. Uh, something that I really emphasize is that yes, that is true, and yet we all share the same emotions. So my story of what makes me or historically has fed into my shame is very unique to me, but yet that core emotion of shame is felt the same. Yeah, so to the degree that I can be in touch with my grief, my fear, my shame, is to the degree that I can be with it and hold space and not react if that comes up in my partner. And this is also in terms of like one person that's growing and one person that isn't, is that the person that isn't is also going to become unsafe for the other person's emotions because part of growing is expanding our bandwidth and capacity to be able to be with uncomfortable emotions and not let them not suppress them, but also not let them take over and run the show either. And uh, because I I see this quite a bit in men who aren't emotionally literate or don't have a big bandwidth for uncomfortable emotions, is they become really uncomfortable in the presence of their partner when she's expressing her grief or her shame, and and it just totally erodes that intimacy, that vulnerability. She doesn't feel safe to express herself because it's not gonna be heard, seen, met, understood, validated. And so that's another way in which you know, if both aren't in it together, that it's gonna eventually at some place hit a ceiling or uh dissipate.

SPEAKER_04 58:19

Yeah, absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 58:21

Yeah, yeah, I I see that too, man. Like, you know, just just that emotional literacy, I think you called it. And it's it's really um, you know, that that's just programming, right? Like that's that's upbringing product of environment, you know, where emotions weren't really kind of um met, perhaps in the early years. And and like that, there are ways through this, like you know, for and and and it is it's capacity. I think you used the word capacity before. It's like, can I build that to stay present in this discomfort? I'm noticing that this is full on for me right now. She's kind of sharing that she's not happy, but also has to do with me. Like for me, this comes back to our our story right at the beginning. Is that I thought, happy wife, happy life. I thought as long as she's happy and smiling, then we're good. So then my reference point becomes she needs to be okay. She needs to be okay. So if she's not okay, that's when I become destabilized. Then there's no grounding in this relationship, there's no rock, there's no, um, and so she feels like she's just floating around in the breeze. Yeah, it's important part, is is the the that masculine containment for sure.

SPEAKER_00 59:40

Yeah. Yeah. Well, and another thing that I wanted to just mention as well, just in that example you gave around the man going to the gym and the woman having you know her history and expectations triggered as fear in a nervous system, you know, part of also being on the same page and doing the work together is supporting one another and knowing what each other, each other's needs are to feel secure. So him being 100% responsible would also look like communicating to be able to lessen her fears and not make her wrong for the fact that she is fearful and uncertain. And oh, you know, she's just got to get over it, just kind of wiping it under the table. It's it's communicating. It's look, look, I know that person's gonna be at the gym. I just want to let you know that I'm just gonna be in my own energy, I'm gonna be doing this and I'll be home by this time. And communicating that and then following up that communication with behavior would be a rep in rebuilding the trust. Because one of the most dysregulating things, I've said this quite a few times, is uncertainty. The more certainty we can give our partner, the more regulated they can be.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:23

Yeah, I think that that Jim example is a good example because I I get why he might be in the space of like, what don't you trust me and take that offensively? And I also understand why she would feel incredibly uncomfortable about that, and especially if it hasn't been spoken to. Um, and this is where that, you know, we talk about taking 100% responsibility for our heart and why even when we are doing the work together, which we are all in balls deep. And um have our own practice of the morning. We both do our own nervous system regulation and we do, you know, we tune into what it is that we need individually so that we can be relationally sovereign, you know, so that we're fully responsible for our health. And the thing about having that, you know, the nervous system and the if the woman's feeling anxious and response, um, her her body's responding, it's so tricky. You know, I work in in female embodiment and nervous system regulation and um, you know, healing from the traumatic imprints that we have. And it's like until we um rewire the memory and the trauma, our body's going to tell us, oh my god, it it's it's like he's at the gym, I just know it's and we'll have the anxiety, I just know it. But that learning what's the trauma response from the past versus when when those layers are cleared and we're soft and we're calm out, it's a very different intuition. It's not a crunching, it's this deep knowing that's not a good idea that he goes to the gym, you know, or it's okay, he can go to the gym. But so the body can be a source of immense wisdom and intuition, and she can always also really fuck us up. That's why we've got to keep doing the inner work, even when we are doing the work together. And then I think what makes it even where the intimacy lies is let's say Aaron shares XYZ, and I like wow, I really notice that in my heart, like my heart really, and like I shared something to you the other day. Do you remember what I shared? That really hurt my heart. Do you remember?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:35

No, I don't remember.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:36

It was something like, oh, and then I can, you know, meet him in that beautiful tender and give his heart a little rub. So and then it's healed. That little thing, just like you know, that I can't remember what it was. I said something.

SPEAKER_02 1:03:48

Yeah. So yeah, yeah, the power of just speaking your truth, hey, like it's really what's happening for you. Yeah, yeah, it's so important.

SPEAKER_01 1:03:57

We went through a phase maybe a week or two ago where we weren't we were just suppressing our truth, like we were just we were just like shoving it down, both of us, and then it just got to this point where we're on a group call with other couples.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:11

We were facilitating.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:12

We were facilitating, and we put it on mute and just let them work out their processes. And and while they were on mute and doing their own thing, like we were having a little kind of like moment, weren't we? Where where I was like, Well, you've been doing this, you've been doing this, and then and then we end up going, maybe we should have a dialogue about this after the call. Do you think? I'm like, Yeah, I reckon.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:34

Let's just do it now.

SPEAKER_01 1:04:35

And and within within five minutes, this is how fast our repairs are now. Yeah, we within five minutes, we we worked through this um to like work through a week's worth of moments where we just were missing each other and and where things didn't land and when you did this, that made me feel like that, and then but but we communicated in a really healthy way, and then we come out the other side stronger.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:59

Like, why didn't we do that like five days ago? Why have we left this this long? Yeah, we get stuck in our heads and all this stuff.

SPEAKER_01 1:05:07

It was cool doing it on a group call, though.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:09

Yeah, we've done it on podcasts, yeah, haven't we? Episodes and something happens, it's like okay, I'm back at now. And our live workshops, we've had a few triggers, and it will always be in relation to what we're actually teaching. And so then we're really great teaching because we're there.

SPEAKER_00 1:05:25

It's authentic, it's real. Real, yeah, this is what I love about you guys.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:29

Yeah, yeah.

Retreats, Workshops And Closing Words

SPEAKER_03 1:05:31

So, do you guys just to close, would you I would love you to share anything you've got coming up, any in-person events or anything that you want to share about your work?

SPEAKER_02 1:05:39

Yeah, amazing. Um, we have a couple of one-day retreats. We've just um launched our first one down the Sunshine Coast. It's not until September. Um, that's on our website and another um retreat up here in Agnes Water as well. That's on the 8th of August. So, yeah, they're the the kind of events that are coming up. We do have an online workshop that's um at the end of the month. It's just an hour. Um, but yeah, that's all roommates to lovers and people join from anywhere to receive a little bit of insight on how to start to shift that dynamic a bit. Amazing.

SPEAKER_04 1:06:14

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:15

Anything that you guys want to share just to end off on? Just that we're so grateful to connect with you guys. And um, yeah, it's just really nice to see another couple doing this work and helping reach more couples to have a happier, thriving relationship. I think that's what the world needs. I think I believe it's at the core of everything is uh your relationship, because if your relationship is solid, then I've seen the the ripple effects out there, the the families are more solid, the the work relationships, you know what it's like. So I just yeah, I just want to say that yeah, it's amazing what you guys are doing, and it's really nice to um yeah to connect and join you guys on this podcast. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00 1:06:56

Yeah, thank you guys. I appreciate your time, your energy, sharing. So honestly, it's been really valuable.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:04

We'll drop your website and details in the call notes.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:07

Amazing.