Working Mom Guilt | Maggie Isenhoff

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Elizabeth
Hey, before we get started, I'm one of the co-hosts and my name is Elizabeth. As you're listening to this episode, I want to ask you to think of another mom who might need to hear some encouragement in the midst of mom guilt. So if you find this episode helpful, please share it with her. Let's jump into this week's episode on working mom guilt.

Maggie
I just feel guilty because you're pulled in two different directions. I want to be very faithful to my job, but I need to be faithful to my husband and to my son. And he's little and he is neat to me.

Stephanie
Welcome to this week's episode of the Mom Guilt Podcast. Today we're talking

Stephanie
about working mom guilt. And in this podcast it's really just a conversation between friends. Together Elizabeth and I have seven kids. I have four kids. She has three kids. And with that many children to love and to take care of, unfortunately we've realized that mom guilt is just a daily part of our life, sometimes even hourly. And so with that, we were talking to other moms and we realized we're not the only ones that feel this mom guilt. And so our goal for this podcast is really, listener, to have you join in on conversations that Elizabeth and I were having, like, on the phone in those moments when we're struggling, or on playdates when stuff happens. So we just want to let you in on those everyday conversations that we have, because we know that the reality is some people don't have another friend that you can talk to. So we want to be that friend for you, listener.

Elizabeth
Yeah, and our hope and prayer is that you would find that friend

Elizabeth
through this.

Stephanie
Absolutely. And then also, we just really want to bring the gospel to this conversation because the gospel impacts everything and we have found through talking about the gospel how much it actually gets rid of that mom guilt, which is so freeing so we can live unburdened by the gospel. So today we have an exciting thing happening. We actually have our first guest on the podcast. So we have our friend Maggie here joining us on the podcast. Maggie, would you mind introducing yourself a little bit to our listeners?

Maggie
Yes, hi. Hi. So I'm Maggie. I have been married to my husband, Dustin, for, it'll be eight years and a month. So we only have one child. He is six and a half and a week we'll be finishing kindergarten. Thank goodness. I also work in ministry and I'm a communications director at Peace Church here in the town that we live in. And hobbies outside of being a mom. I feel like working and being a mom are my hobbies. Also, like, we live on the river, so we spend a lot of time, like, on the river. We fish, we kayak, we like to swim. A lot of, like, boy stuff because I have a boy. So like playing in the dirt and playing monster trucks have become my hobbies I guess. Awesome I love it. I always hate that question like what are your hobbies? I'm like oh I don't have any hobbies. Am I supposed to? I'm cooking and cleaning. I used to have hobbies but that was six and a half years ago. Someday we'll have them again.

Maggie
Yeah.

22
Yeah.

Maggie
All right.

Stephanie
So we're going to kind of just jump into our episode here. My name is Stephanie and the last time that I felt mom guilt was earlier this week. We just got this inflatable pool for our children and I'm like mowing the lawn and I hear my daughter yell mom one of the boys threw our cat in the pool and I like go over and he threw the cat in the pool, which I thought I was like, okay, the cat's fine, we're good, until the next day I looked and our pool is now totally deflated because apparently the cat like clawed it. But I felt really bad because my kid got scratched from the cat because he didn't like it and I didn't really feel that bad. And so then afterwards I felt really guilty for not feeling bad that I didn't care that my kid got scratched by the cat.

Elizabeth
A natural consequence.

Stephanie
I'm like, it is a natural consequence. Come on, bud, you don't throw cats in the water.

Stephanie
Don't put the cat in the water.

Stephanie
But that giggle afterwards of like, I probably should have cared more.

Maggie
I tell my kids that all the time when he picks the cat up. I'm like, dude, you're playing with fire here.

Elizabeth
Yeah, absolutely. Proceed at your own risk. Well, my name's Elizabeth. And the last time that I felt mom guilt was actually yesterday. I got an email from my oldest teacher, and unfortunately, his reading has just like plateaued and she was just kind of giving us a heads up that he's struggling in this area and I felt so bad. Like they send home these books that you're supposed to read to them daily and I don't do it. I'm I reread I just don't do it every day and so I was feeling like man like maybe this is my fault. But thankfully it's kindergarten.

28
Yes.

Stephanie
And it's almost summer. You have the whole summer to be able to read to catch up, to do that at your own pace.

Elizabeth
Exactly. And his teacher offered to read with him once a week throughout the summer. Oh, that's so sweet. Yes, I think we're going to do that. And so, yeah, I felt guilt, but knowing it's okay.

Maggie
It's okay in our kindergarten. Yeah.

Stephanie
With being homeschooling, my kids, they all are at different rates. And so I just want to give you some assurance on that, that like each kid is going to do things at different times, just like when they were little, they crawled at different times, like they're going to hit those different things.

Maggie
Well, and we try to read and so are my youngest. Her like screaming through the whole thing, like high pitch.

Elizabeth
I'm like, we can't do this.

Maggie
I don't know.

Elizabeth
So it'll be OK. We'll figure it out.

Maggie
Yeah, you will. Even, I mean, just having one child and trying to read. I can't imagine also having two smaller ones that you're like, yeah, I, and my kid does not like to read. So, he just-

Stephanie
Yeah, I have some that don't like reading either.

Maggie
He just found some books that he enjoys, that he will read. But it took, I mean, this whole year. Yeah. And we had to force him and it was like a fight.

Elizabeth
So, I'm embarrassed to admit this, but maybe you feel this, which Stephanie, you homeschool, so. I try to like read with my oldest and I'm trying to like I'm like sound out the words And I'm I realized wow I am NOT a great teacher. I'm not very patient. Can you get this like come on? It's not that hard and I just say the word. I'm like here it is. That's the word I know some of the English language is like super hard because you'll see these letters and sometimes they make this sound and then sometimes the J Makes a J and then it makes it all these different things. It's hard. Well, and then I realized, wow, I really need to be more patient, compassionate.

Maggie
I'm like, thank you for people that do this. Yeah, 100%. Yeah. So my name is Maggie. And the last time I felt mom guilt was literally this morning. I was riding like a mom high because every Friday for the last few weeks at the end of school, we've been I've been And leaving a little bit early, taking my kid to either the grocery store or the coffee shop, getting a donut, getting a coffee, kind of like little mom and me time before on Fridays before school.

Stephanie
That's fine.

Maggie
Feeling good. And then so we did that this morning. We get to school, we get there like right on time. We're nice. I mean, you're like winning at life.

Elizabeth
I'm winning.

Maggie
There are no fights. A plus. He's dressed. He has shoes on. I look to get out of the car. No backpack.

Stephanie
I'm like, oh no.

Maggie
And there's his water bottle, his snack. And I'm like, oh.

Stephanie
He's got his food.

26
That's good.

Maggie
He gets lunch at school. But I'm like, oh man.

Elizabeth
Did you have to turn around?

Maggie
I called my husband and I was like, hey. My husband works from home. So I was like, hey, can you bring his backpack? And he's like, yeah, I'll do it.

Elizabeth
I've been there.

Maggie
Yeah, I'm parenting as a team effort.

Stephanie
Guys.

Maggie
Yeah, I passed him.

Maggie
I passed him on the way I was going to work and he was coming to the school and I like gave him a little like, she's like, you remembered your child.

25
Yeah. Yeah, so it was true.

Maggie
Oh, and he also got a giant balloon. So, I don't know why I let him get that.

Elizabeth
But you're fine. You're fine.

Maggie
Mom, I guess I was like, oh, it's the end of the school year. Almost.

Maggie
Yeah, get a balloon.

Stephanie
Yeah, I don't know.

Stephanie
Awesome. We're going to jump into our conversation here now about working moms. So kind of thinking through this, let's just go ahead and kind of share what has our working in or out of the house, what does that kind of look like for each of us? Because I think it's looked a little different for each of the three of us. Elizabeth, do you want to start out?

Elizabeth
Yeah, so I have, for the most part, been a stay-at-home mom. However, I've had part-time jobs. Actually that's where Maggie and I met, and we've been friends. Awesome. Yeah, I was part-time on kids' ministry at a previous church. And yeah, that was really hard. I would bring my oldest with us everywhere. I felt so bad dragging him around to like four church services. And it just, it was hard to juggle the two. And I couldn't imagine full-time moms, like just trying to do part-time. And yet it was still on me to, you know, take care of the home because my husband worked full time. And yeah, so that was that was a struggle. That was hard. And it made me think of full time moms who do that 40 hours a week, but then come home and have to still do all of the other stuff. Yeah. So that was just a little bit of my experience. I was really grateful that I had a part time job that I could bring him. You know, that was best scenario. But it was hard, I bet.

Maggie
Liz rocked that part-time job.

Elizabeth
I can't imagine.

Maggie
She was the best. She was so sweet. Can I also add that our sons are only, her oldest and my only are only four days apart.

Stephanie
Oh my goodness.

Elizabeth
We were pregnant at the same time.

Stephanie
Yeah.

Maggie
Preggo buddy.

Maggie
And then we found out we were having boys.

Elizabeth
It was really small. It was cool, yeah.

Maggie
That's awesome.

16
She did awesome.

22
Oh, thank you.

Maggie
You're so sweet.

Stephanie
So for me, I went to school to be a nurse. And part of the reason that I chose that, because I was debating between a couple of different options, was because I knew that there could potentially be some flexibility. And I thought, I actually ended up marrying my high school sweetheart. So we knew that we were going to get married before I chose my career path. I'm like, well, we're going to get married, we'd love to have kids, I'm going to choose something that's going to allow me to be a little bit more flexible. So I was a nurse and I worked full time up to having my first. And then I went down to two days a week while I had my oldest. And then my next daughter was still two days a week. And then when we had our third, our first son, I went down to one day a week. And then when we found out we were pregnant with our fourth, I worked one day a week through that pregnancy. And then after he was born, I now transitioned to full-time stay-at-home mom, we made the decision to homeschool. So that kind of turned that in a different direction. I was really blessed. I actually had my mom and then my husband's mom lived really close by, and they would actually watch my kids for me. And so that was something that I know not everybody has the ability to do. So that was a really unique situation for me, that I was able to have free childcare with grandmas while I was working.

Elizabeth
Yeah.

Maggie
Yeah.

Maggie
Shout out to the grandma.

13
Absolutely.

Maggie
Amazing. That's who we used as well. Yeah. So yeah, I have almost always worked full time. I think ever since I graduated from college, I have a communications degree. I've worked full time except for the job that I worked with Elizabeth at, I quit when I was, gosh, basically 40 weeks pregnant or whatever, and had my son I think about two weeks after I quit. I was home with him for about six months, and after about three months I was like, I cannot, I can't do this. This is just not, being a stay-at-home mom, I just, is not for me. And then of course I felt super guilty about that, right? Cause this is a three month old, like sweet little baby. He's so cute. And I was like, I just, I need to go back to work. So I did get like a, I think it was about 30 hour a week job. And I did that for about two years. But during those 30 hours, my in-laws, bless them, would take my son. And they, gosh, they watched him. They've, they watch him a lot. He's pretty much half theirs.

Maggie
Yeah.

Stephanie
Yeah.

Maggie
And so after that, I mean, I've been working now full time, 40 hours since he was, I think, two. OK. Yeah. So, yeah, I've pretty much always worked as since he can remember, I've done full time.

Elizabeth
Yeah. So kind of hearing your story that you work 40 hours a week and, you know, you mentioned that you were a stay home mom for like a six months. What kind of led to your decision to transition from being a stay-at-home mom in those six months to being a working mom and kind of the conversations that you had and if you could just like let us in on that.

Maggie
Yeah, I, gosh, like I thought, oh, like every mom wants to stay at home with their baby. And so I was like, okay, I think I'm gonna do this. I'm gonna stay at home. And I, you know, during that time dealt with some postpartum depression. And so it was good that I was home. I mean, it was good that I didn't have any other responsibilities, I think. So I ultimately, I think God really like intervened and, you know, that's why I was home. But at the same time, after three months, I just was like, I need, this is not what I feel like I'm called to do. I feel like I'm called to work and, you know, do more. And then of course, like I said, you feel guilty, right? Because moms are supposed to want to stay home. Moms are supposed to want to be with their kids 24-7.

Stephanie
Which I don't, if I could interject, I don't know if I've actually met somebody who has actually felt like that. There's this expectation that like as a mom, you're supposed to love every second of every day, you know, and just like, this is amazing every second. You know, that's not the reality because we live in a sinful broken world. Like we're going to have days when things are not going well and we're frustrated, we're not handling it well because we're sinful beings too and our kids are sinners. And so I just think that that's an important thing to remember that I need to remember myself. Like, this is normal to not love every second of every day. Yeah.

Maggie
And that's okay. Yeah. Yeah. And you're, I mean, you're absolutely right. You see like people putting on a show on social media, which is what I do for a job. So that's probably not helpful or wasn't at the time. I do love my job now. But yeah, at the time that probably wasn't helpful for me. But yeah, then at six months, I had the opportunity to work for a family member and work from home. But of course, it's pretty difficult to work from home at the six month old. So my in-laws graciously took him four days a week all day. I don't know. I mean, that's a lot to ask somebody and they jumped in. He's their last grandchild. So, you know, he's got a special little place in their heart. So, um they were just so gracious to do that and I did that for gosh, almost 2 years, I think. So, yeah, I was lucky to do that and then um my husband worked was driving back and forth to an hour away and I thought, well, if I get a job where he works and we can move. So that's what ended up happening. And then over and all sorts of crazy things. The world fell apart.

16
The world fell apart.

13
And now you're here with us.

21
Yeah.

20
And I'm so happy.

Elizabeth
Yeah.

Maggie
So but the decision, I guess the reason why is just because I. I ultimately I just don't feel called to stay at home, and that has nothing to do with I feel like staying at home is actually harder work to me and maybe Stay at home moms may feel like working is harder work, but I think Yeah, he makes us all unique yeah, and so I I absolutely adore my son, but I just yeah love him and that you're an amazing mom. And especially knowing you since we were pregnant

Elizabeth
and seeing all of that, there's no doubt. Yeah, so with that, can I ask, like it sounds like you and your husband were on the same page. Can you let us into some of the conversation?

Stephanie
Because I think it's really important for moms, like you're talking to your husband about like, because this is a family decision. It's not just like our decision. Can you let us in on that conversation that you had kind of with your husband and deciding? I mean, it was long conversations, I think, that you had kind of with your husband and deciding?

Maggie
Yeah, I mean, it was long conversations, I think, even when I was pregnant, kind of talking about like, leaving my ministry job, what is that going to look like? Can we afford to do that? Because, you know, my husband, he was at the time, I think, not, he wasn't in a very like, great job for him. And so we were just like, can we afford it? And then God ended up providing for him. God provided his dream job.

Stephanie
Oh, that's amazing.

Maggie
He literally started, he was actually supposed to start two days after our son was born. So it ended up being about a week later. But God, I mean, he was provided his dream job and he's just been thriving in that sense. But yeah, we had so many conversations and, you know, we had saved up so much and we discussed, okay, we can do this for a season, and then it became, well, we might be able to continue, and we'll have to cut back. And he saw how hard it was for me with the postpartum, and how hard it was every day to just be home and not feel like I was out in the world. And I'm a people person. I am introverted. A lot of people don't believe that about me. If you've met me, you're like, no way, but I really am. But I also need to be around people. And he knew that about me, and he knew it wasn't good for me to be home. And so I just, you know, we talked about it. And he said, he ultimately has, what he said was, I want whatever is good for you. I want whatever you want. And he's, he was the one that was encouraging me saying, Ellis will be fine. Like he will be, he will be okay.

Stephanie
That's awesome.

Maggie
Like there's, you're not gonna like ruin him. You're not gonna mess him up. Yeah, like he, he is the ultimate encourager. Like he's the best. So he was just like, no matter what you do, you're still a good mom. Yeah.

17
So yeah.

Maggie
Were those conversations, I know for, for my husband and I, we had those same conversations of what is this going to look like when we start having kids? And then each time we added another, this wasn't just like a one and done conversation. Like this was an ongoing what makes sense for our family in this season. Was that the same kind of for you and your your experience, Maggie? Yeah. Um it was and and for you know when I was doing the part time when Ellis was smaller and then when we discussed like moving an hour away that was like a huge conversation for us um and that was a long, drawn-out conversation. Can we do it? Because then we don't have family. Is that okay for Ellis? And again, my husband said, if this is what you think is good for you and what you want to do, then it'll be okay for him. And so, and of course he was happy not to have to drive an hour. And then of course God had different plans because six months into that job, COVID happened and we worked from home. So then we moved back. But yeah, it was, you're right, it was continued conversation. It wasn't just like one conversation and then we're done. He's like, whatever you want to do is fine, just let me know. It was like multiple conversations. My husband's not a big talker. If you've met him, he's a super quiet guy, but he cares about his family very deeply. And so he's, yeah, he's a huge encourager.

Elizabeth
Yeah. And you mentioned that you felt called to be a working mom. Can you kind of let us in on like that? Was that lots of time in prayer or was it just this feeling that God was calling you

Maggie
there? Yeah. I think it was just sort of like a feeling that God was calling me there. I think especially after being in ministry and then so I was in ministry for two years as a communications director and it ended when I was pregnant about to have my son and it it ended pretty well. I was definitely like stressed. I burnt myself out a little bit and also I wanted to stay at home. So then I was getting all these more corporate jobs and I, because I thought, oh, I want to work, you know, I felt called to work. And what I realized eventually, I've now been in this job for just about a year, is I think I was called to be like more in ministry. And so it took me a little while to realize that that's what I was called to do. And honestly, almost immediately after I quit my first ministry job, I felt like, oh, I shouldn't have done that. Like I wanted to be back in ministry. You know, being in a church. Yeah, I really enjoyed it. That's what I felt like I was called to do. But then the church that I worked at was my church that I had been at for almost a decade. And so I was like, well, how could I work anywhere else? So I kind of just pushed it off and just, you know, kind of supplemented with other corporate jobs that I thought would make me happy. So, yeah.

Stephanie
And I think like hearing you talk like to be called, it kind of sounds like to simplify that sometimes it's like, oh, I was called to do this. And it's like, what does that really mean? Like we say that. But it sounds like for you to say called it's that you had this desire. You had this conversation with your husband that you're both kind of on the same page. You're evaluating like this makes sense. This is my personality. So to be is that is that a fair summary of what you're saying it is to be called?

Maggie
Yeah.

Maggie
Yep. Yeah. For me, I would say it's fair and just yeah. And then to be in ministry, not in ministry is hard work. I mean, you all know your husbands are in ministry. I actually, spoiler alert, work with both of them. That's true. Stephanie's husband is my boss. So, and it's all love here. Her husband is great. But so it's you, you both know that it's extremely difficult. And so it's not, it's not a neon sign flashing in the sky. It's not great for everybody. And yeah, but I always felt like it was something that, that I needed to do that I wanted to do. And not just because it's about me, but because I felt like God, that's what God is telling me to do. He has provided that for you. You kind of shared that, that, you know, Dustin found his dream job and then you ended up in Lansing and then now you're back here. And so God has been kind of pushing you that direction. God provided. And then this job opened up and coincidentally this church is my in-laws church of all places and just it just all worked out kind of perfectly so yeah where I am here but that doesn't mean I don't feel guilty almost every

Stephanie
day. So you've kind of talked about like you were feeling guilty that you felt like you should be a stay-at-home mom, you tried that, wasn't a good fit, you didn't feel called to do that. What kind of guilt do you do you experience guilt with working? I'm guessing yes, because as a mom, I don't know how you don't feel guilty about whatever choice you make. Can you let us in like how do you feel guilty or what's going on that would cause that for you?

Maggie
Pretty much almost every day or at least every week. Let's say that for sure because Jobs are demanding. You have to work 40 plus hours a week and so is my husband. And we're lucky that he does work from home, which makes it a little bit easier. Although, just because people work from home does not mean they're not working. Let me tell you that. But I just feel guilty because you're pulled in two different directions. I want to be very faithful to my job, but I need to be faithful to my husband and to my son. And he's little and he needs me. He is a mama's boy. 100%. He is still wants to snuggle with mommy. The first thing he says when he wakes up most mornings is, will you snuggle me? Oh, and there are mornings where I say I can't. I have to get ready for work and then instantly I'm like guilt or when I leave early and my husband drops him off. He's like I wanted you to drop me off. Oh, there's the guilt again. Or when my husband does drop off and pick up. So I'm at work, you know, early and I stay a little bit late, then I feel guilty because my husband's doing more and because my son doesn't see me as much. And so it's just, it's kind of a constant because you're busy and he's only in school technically for like six and a half And I'm here for you know, eight or nine at least, if not more. And so it's just, I wish I could be there to drop him off and be there the second he gets out. Yeah. But obviously that's not reasonable. And I know I need to let him fly. I need to let him fly. He's finishing kindergarten. But you know, he did, he has said like, I wish you weren't at work as much. And I'm like, way to put a knife to my heart a little bit.

Elizabeth
I always do that.

Stephanie
Well, because you feel any better to my kids say that to me when I come here for like two hours on Friday to record a podcast. So I feel like anytime I leave, my kids are saying that same thing. I don't know if that helps you.

Maggie
Do they say that to your husband?

Stephanie
They do.

Maggie
Oh, okay.

9
They do.

18
Wow.

Stephanie
Daddy, how come you have to go to work all the time and not play with me? Like kids. And I think sometimes it's really good for kids to see what it means to work like do what God has called you to do. And that doesn't mean I don't love you. I love you more than my job is probably exactly that's talking with you. That's your ordered like, yeah, you come first before my job. But that doesn't mean I don't work.

Maggie
Yeah, yeah, we we've talked a lot in a kind of theme that I'm on here about, you know, being hungry at work. And also you have to be hungry for your family too. So you have to be hungry at your job. You want to get stuff done, but that's not the only place that you should be hungry. You should be hungry for your family as well. Balancing those is not always easy, I think. And sometimes one is higher than the other. If my son deals with some anxiety, and so when that is higher, I know that I need to be there for him more.

17
Yeah.

Maggie
When he's having good weeks, he's okay. Especially when it's nice out, because he and my husband are gone. They're standing.

16
They're doing their own thing.

Maggie
I came home the other day, and I look over there, and they're in their swimsuits, doing, I don't know, catching something. And I'm like, whatever, you don't even need me here.

Maggie
They didn't come in for hours.

Maggie
I'm like, well, I could just live in at work. And so it's just but it's it's hard not to feel guilty, especially because like, my husband is then home cleaning. Also, my husband, shout out to him makes every single dinner. Oh, that's awesome. I hate saying that, because it

Stephanie
makes me feel bad. Part of being a family and working is your, your responsibilities of how you guys manage your house is going to look different than somebody else's, even if they work full-time too. They just get to figure that out.

Maggie
You don't wanna eat my cooking.

Maggie
That's not my thing. I would stop.

Elizabeth
But what a great example too, that he's showing your son what it means to love his family well. And I think that that is so cool. We don't see that. I mean, not every family dynamic has that. And again, going back to, you and your husband are on the same page in this. Yeah. If he had an issue, he would come to you and say that. So this is very much, you know, he is OK with that. And so remembering that and I'm sorry that you feel guilty for that because those are lies. You know, you are a good mom. You love your family.

Maggie
And yeah, he does like he does not make me feel guilty. But there are some weeks where he's like, I just can't, I just don't know. And I'm like, okay, I'll figure it out or I got it. I'm more of the mental load, which I think that's very typical of moms is mental load. I know everybody's birthday.

Elizabeth
Doctors appointments.

Maggie
He does know our kid's birthday, but it's very easy to remember because it's New Year's Day. He knows everybody's birthday, he knows, or I know everybody's birthday, I know doctor's appointments, I know when the school carnival is, I know when, you know, when we have to be here, when we have to be there, kind of that kind of stuff, or we're almost out of, you know, Ellis needs new socks, or the dog's out of food, or whatever. That's kind of like, I mean, not that I don't know anything around the house, but I'm way more mental load.

Elizabeth
The mental load is a lot. Yeah. I even, I mean, whether you're a working mom or a stay-at-home mom, I think that isn't talked about enough because it is. It's a lot. And to carry that and have to be like, oh my goodness, this needs to be done all the time.

Maggie
So yeah, I'm glad you brought that up because that is just part of being a mom. It's hard. The mental load is wild. I've learned to like, we have a digital calendar and then I also have like a physical calendar that's weekly that I have to physically write out and then we write who is picking up and dropping off on what day. So we never forget because I still remember the one time my mom forgot to pick me up in

Maggie
elementary school.

Maggie
Literally one time, one time in all of my 18 years at school, she forgot to pick me up and I still remember it.

Elizabeth
So yeah.

Elizabeth
So you kind of mentioned the guilt that you have, have you ever felt guilt from like outside sources or just has anyone ever said anything or made you feel a certain way or just even Christian culture?

Maggie
Uh, I feel like, I don't think, I honestly don't think anyone has said anything intentionally. Most of my friends homeschool. And so there have been comments like here and there about public school and like and I don't think that people are saying that directed at me and then I'm like well what if that's your only option? I can't afford to send my kid to a Christian school. And plus there's not any like super close where we live but we're actually very happy so far with where we're at and but and I get the hesitation for some people because like there are certain places where it can be bad but so I've heard just like my friends have made some comment and love them dearly and I wish I could homeschool but I don't think I could like you know first of all I don't think I could and second of all I don't know that my kid would do well with it. Stephanie, I do not know how you homeschool. Me either. I don't know how many you're homeschooling right now, two or three? Two. And then you have an extra two to figure out what to do. What do you do with them?

Stephanie
I don't know. I think that's one of the beautiful things in this conversation, though, is that this isn't like a cookie cutter. The Bible doesn't say you cannot work outside of the home, nor does it say the opposite either. I think this is one of those areas where God gives us freedom in order to live out the gospel and to manage our house and how it best fits our personality that God gave us. Like this isn't a surprise to God that you feel called to work outside of the house because he wired it, he planned it, he designed it that way.

13
Work is good.

Stephanie
It is great. And I think in reading through some of the scriptures and like preparing for this, you know, we did not find any verses that specifically said you should not work out of the house or you should work out of the house. A lot of them talked about like how to manage like as a Christian mom, we're called to manage our house, which I love how you said earlier that that works for you guys. If you've divvied up, you're managing your house beautifully. And that I think is so that's such a great example.

Maggie
I don't know about beautifully.

12
I don't know if you've seen the inside of my home. It doesn't have to be clean.

Maggie
We just did it on the show. Our vacuum broke and there's dog hair everywhere. So to my friends that are coming over this weekend, don't worry. We're going to vacuum for you. But yeah, it's not the cleanest, but you know what, it works. It's never going to be perfect. But I love the modeling of the different tiers. You know, God comes first, right? What God wants for your life, then you see our husbands come second, right? And that's talking about our husbands, what they think is best for our family and being on the same page, the same team with that. And then children third, right? And then your work and you can do that well while you work. Not that it's going to be perfect and you're going to do it perfectly all of the time, but whether we stay at home or we work, we're always trying to balance that. Yeah. Yeah. And have you, oh, sorry. No, you're good. I feel like, and I also feel really lucky and no, I'm not trying to like suck up because my boss's wife is sitting right next to me. But I do feel really like blessed that where I work, like that's very valued. And so it's under, people understand if like yesterday I had an event at my son's school and it was just like, yep, sure, that's fine. There was no like, oh, well, I don't know, you might have to like figure that out or it's like understood that, okay, yep, she's gonna figure out how to make up a few hours here or there. It's not like, well, when are you gonna do that? Or no, we really need you here. Like, yep, no, your family is important. Or your kid's sick, like, that's fine. No worries. And I do feel really blessed that that's the culture I feel like around here is if you have something you gotta do that's for your family,

Maggie
then that's important.

Elizabeth
Yeah, yeah. I can attest to that too. So my husband and staff. No, that's great. Kind of going back to what you were talking about, Stephanie, with scripture, I feel like we actually found a lot of examples of women working in scripture. I don't know if you want to share a couple or...

Stephanie
Yeah, and thinking this, I actually found it interesting because thinking through, when I was working, it reminded me of this conversation. Like, I actually had a conversation with one of my coworkers, who was a male, who, when he heard that I was going to step back to part-time, he challenged me and he said, you shouldn't do that. And I was kind of taken aback, like, well, that's kind of the opposite message of sometimes of what I would hear from the Christian culture. Yeah, because the Christian culture seems to say, oh, you have to stay at home with your kids. But my co-worker who, to my knowledge, was not a Christian said, no, you need to be working full time because you have to show your children what all women can do and women can do exactly what men can do. And so I think sometimes from the culture, we're told and I know this is not your heart. This is not where you're coming from, Maggie. But for some of our listeners, you guys may have been told you have to work almost from like this feminist point of view, like you have to prove that you have the same value as a male, which I would kind of push on that and say, well, we do have the same value, but our roles sometimes look different. Even whether we work outside of the house, we work in the house, your roles are going to look different and you get to figure out what that means for your family. But for me, from the Christian culture, sometimes I've had friends who are working moms that have been really hurt because people will try to yield Bible verses like a sword or like something that they're going to beat you over the head with and say, well, no, the Bible says you have to work at home. And I just want to assure you listeners that that's not what the Bible says. The Bible actually gives freedom in this area of how best you get to live and manage your house and raise your family to the glory of God, that doesn't look the same for everybody.

Elizabeth
Yeah, and the Bible is really clear that we need to love our family well. We need to manage our homes, that that needs to be our first priority. But that doesn't mean you can't work.

Stephanie
Yeah, so you think of passages like Titus 2. Titus 2 is an older woman talking to a younger woman, almost of like how you're to mentor. And some of that list, it's that you manage your house, you know, and I would say, Maggie, you are managing your house and you are doing so. And part of it is providing financially through working full time and doing that. But just because it says managing your house or keeping your house in order does not de facto mean you have to be a full time stay at home mom.

Elizabeth
Yeah. We don't want to add to scripture. No. Scripture isn't clear about that.

Stephanie
Yeah. I think we also kind of see that in Proverbs 31, which sometimes saying Proverbs 31 almost gives me like a little PTSD of like, how can I measure up to this? And this again, I mean, it's Proverbs. This is something that is general wisdom says this is not to our knowledge an actual woman. This is actually wisdom that's being passed down father to son of this is the type of woman that you should be looking for. And in this list, if you guys haven't read Proverbs 31, you can go through and do that. We're not going to do that here on the podcast. But part of that list is she's providing for her family. And part of that is working outside of the home, selling things in the marketplace and dyeing cloth purple and doing these things outside of her home. And then some of it is she is providing in the house working at home. So you're seeing both of those models as an example of what a Christian woman would do.

Elizabeth
Yeah, yeah, I love that. And I know like in Philippians, we see the women who worked with Paul in the gospel. So we see women called to be helpers in ministry in that way.

Maggie
We also see, you know, prophetesses, is that how you say that?

Stephanie
Yeah, sounds good to me.

Elizabeth
And judges, you know, Miriam and Deborah and Lydia, she was a seller of purple goods, and Priscilla, who was a tent maker by trade. So we see women working all throughout

Stephanie
Scripture. Mm-hmm both inside and outside the house. Yeah. Yeah So I think this is an area where sometimes if I mean I think the church has missed its mark on How you respond to this topic? I think sometimes it can be really Legalistic of the best way that you can be a Christian woman is to do this and you're adding to scripture Like you were saying earlier, which is legalism.

Maggie
Yeah.

Stephanie
And that's not where we want to land.

Maggie
Yeah, exactly.

Elizabeth
That's a great point, Stephanie, because it's so easy to fall into legalism, whether that's saying like what your coworker said, you need to work to be a good mom or no, you need to stay home to be a good mom. And the truth is, it's not black and white. No. And we need to encourage each other to be faithful to what God is calling you to do, which is what makes

Stephanie
you a good mom, right? Like that's the definite, like that's what we would say. A good mom is going to love your child by teaching them the ways of the Lord. And it's going to look different from house to house.

Elizabeth
Model to your children what it means to love the Lord and to be obedient in everything. So holding that openly, Lord, do you want me to work? Do you want me to stay home? I will do what you call me to do. And I think you are doing a great job at that. And you are a good mom and your son sees that, and that you love your family and your husband. So I just want to encourage you in that. And I didn't know, do you have any like encouragement for other moms who may be feeling similarly or going through the same thing?

Maggie
I feel like, I mean, you guys are way more encouraging. Wow, like you guys are super encouraging. I just think, for moms, I think, who don't stay home, I just think that you can realize what we talked about. We're all called to different things. And so if you are a stay-at-home mom and you encounter a mom who works, I think just appreciating that you're called to different things and encouraging them, and hopefully they will encourage you back. And if you are a working mom, just make sure that you are equally hungry for your job as your family, or just know that you should be hungry for your family as well. That you don't have to be everything to everyone.

Stephanie
You can't, in that way we're trying to be God,

Stephanie
and we're not God.

Maggie
You can't, yes, you are not God. And just, your children will love you no matter what. And that is sometimes very hard for me to remember. And I think like, oh, if I'm not home on time, he's not going to love me or I mean, not not going to love me, but just he's going to feel crushed and that's going to wreck him for the rest of his life. And realistically, it's not because I'm there every other time. I go to school. I do all sorts of things with him. And yeah, I just think, just remember that it's okay.

Stephanie
We've said this on the podcast before, but I think I need this reminder all the time that like, we can't be all things to our kids. We're not designed to, that's God's role. We can't be that. But on the flip side, sometimes we can feel that pressure of, oh my goodness, if I don't make the perfect decision, I'm going to mess up my kids. And somebody once told me, and I want to encourage you again with it, that you can't mess up more than God can redeem. So we are going to mess up because we're sinners. And there isn't something that I can do as a mom, that's going to just devastate my child that they can't bounce back from because God is bigger than that mistake. Yeah. Or that shortfall or whatever that may be.

Maggie
Yeah, I think I heard you say that you heard you said that previously and I read it as like a quote on your Facebook or Instagram and I was like, yes, that's exactly what I needed because I think that a lot about things because I am not a perfect parent. Yeah, I don't know who is really. And so I think that a lot, especially, you know, about being absent at certain times when my husband is there and thinking like, oh, he's gonna grow up thinking my mom was never there. That's not true.

Stephanie
That's a lie that we sometimes believe that'll cause guilt.

Elizabeth
Yeah, definitely. So Stephanie, do you have any kind of words to leave us at as we end?

Stephanie
Yeah, so I think kind of reflecting on our conversation that we had, I just, listener, really want to encourage you kind of as we close down here, God's individual plan that he has for you is going to look different than what might be Elizabeth's or myself's or Maggie's position, and that's okay. I think this is an area that we get to feel freedom and the gospel to live how God has called us to do. I think sometimes we can feel guilty if that doesn't look like our neighbor, but I think really in that moment, if you're trying to look like your neighbor or trying to model your life like your neighbor's, that's not what we should be doing. We should be looking to God as to how he wants us to live our lives and what that looks like rather than comparing that to another person.

9
Yeah, definitely.

Elizabeth
I need that reminder even as a stay-at-home mom that God has called me uniquely to something.

Stephanie
Yeah, and I think sometimes, I mean, you, a listener, could be called to be a full-time stay-at-home mom, a part-time working mom, or a full-time working mom, and I think that we get to do that to God's glory, right? How the many things of what that looks like for our life, it's going to be different. But the big picture, like we talked about earlier, is you're going to be teaching your child about the Lord. And that big picture, we're all on the same page with that. That's what it means to be a good biblical mom. And so I think, well, so you guys get to live in freedom, that whatever you do, however you work, you get to do that, knowing that your identity isn't in your work status or the hours you do or don't clock in at work, but in who God calls you to be.

Elizabeth
Yeah. Maggie, thank you. Thank you for coming on. Thanks for sharing your story.

Maggie
Thanks for having me. Yeah, I'm excited.

Stephanie
Yeah, so I think, listener, you guys can go knowing that your identity and your salvation aren't dependent on the hours that you work, but on Jesus Christ. So you get to go and you get to do your mommy into the glory of God, and you get to be obedient to him. So until next time, listeners, we want you to live your life unburdened from this mom guilt, knowing that your identity is secure in Christ. And before we go, we do have a super exciting announcement that you guys may have heard earlier, and our podcast is actually one of the breakout sessions. So you guys, the registration is now live, you can go on to peacechurch.cc slash events and register yourself and all of your mom friends for this if you're in the Middleville, Caledonia, Wayland area, or if you want to drive a couple hours we'd love to have you there too.

Elizabeth
Vacation.

Stephanie
Yeah so we get to be a breakout session we're going to do two of them which we will announce what those topics will be in a little bit but myself I've actually been invited to be one of the keynote speakers I'm going to be speaking on Friday night which is really exciting so we just really want you guys to be a part of that and to come check it out.

Elizabeth
Yeah come meet Maggie, Stephanie and I in person.

Stephanie
We would love that.

Maggie
Yes.

Stephanie
Cool so until next time see you later. Bye.

Elizabeth
Here's a sneak peek of next week's episode on bottle or boob beating. Sounds so serious.

Stephanie
I can't because breast is best. That's what the first person said and I'm crying and at that point it's my first baby I didn't know how to nurse.

Stephanie
so

Stephanie
And if you have any stories from your life where you are really struggling with mom guilt in any different area, we would love to help and talk about that here on the podcast. So if you have anything that you would like us to talk about any specific category, you

Stephanie
can actually email that question to us at mom guilt podcast at gmail.com. So we can talk about those stories here on the podcast and you can become unburdened So we can talk about those stories here on the podcast and you can become unburdened through the gospel of Jesus Christ.