Poverty, Mental Health, and the Role of Women in Maureen Cullen's 'Kitten Heels'

In this episode, we’ve invited Ringwood author Maureen Cullen to discuss the release of her debut novel, Kitten Heels, a book about poverty, mental health, and the role of women in 1960s Scotland. We talk about Maureen's writing process, the similarities and differences between writing short stories and novels, caregiving roles, and more!

Maureen Cullen is a retired social worker living in Argyll & Bute. After thirty years’ commitment to social work, she turned to writing poetry and short fiction, completing a Master’s Degree in Creative Writing from Lancaster University in 2015 and achieving a distinction. Maureen has had poetry published in multiple magazines and online webzines, and had a poetry conversation written with Patricia M Osborne, Sherry and Sparkly, published by the Hedgehog Press in 2021. She has been shortlisted in numerous short story competitions, including the V.S. Pritchett Prize, the Fish Prize, and the Bristol Prize. She also won the Labello Prize for short fiction in 2014, and the Ringwood Short Story competition in 2022.

Order Kitten Heels here.

Transcript

Madeline: Welcome to the Ringwood Publishing Podcast. I'm your host, Madeline. And each week, we are joined by a series of authors, colleagues, and guests to talk about all things books and publishing.

Hello everyone, and welcome to season four, episode four, of the Ringwood Publishing Podcast. My name is Madeline Wall, and I'm the host for this season. In this episode, we've invited Ringwood author Maureen Cullen to discuss the release of her debut novel, Kitten Heels, a moving coming of age story set in 1960s working class Clydeside and told from 13-year-old Kathleen's perspective.

We talk about Maureen's writing process, the inspiration for Kitten Heels, the Scots language, and more. This book follows Kathleen Gallagher, who is resourceful, brave, and tireless, but fated to work in the bra factory like her mother. It's 1962, and Kathleen resents her situation. She has to look after her three younger siblings whilst her mother works part time, collect the wages from her absentee father, and and it sacrificed her social life for responsibilities she never asked for.

When Kathleen's grandmother dies, the entire family dynamic changes, leaving the relationship with her mother to suffer. Dealing with issues of poverty, mental health, and the role of women, Kitten Heels follows Kathleen as she finds comfort and support in the community of women around her, learning from the way in which these women find ways to grow, nourish, and heal each other despite hardships and institutional obstacles set in their way. Maureen Cullen is a retired social worker living in Argyle and Butte. After 30 years commitment to social work, she turned to writing poetry and short fiction, completing a master's degree in creative writing from Lancaster University in 2015, and achieving a distinction.

Maureen has had poetry published in multiple magazines and online webzines and had a poetry conversation written with Patricia M. Osborne, Sherry, and Sparkly published by the Hedgehog Press in 2021. She has been shortlisted in numerous short story competitions, including the V. S. Pritchett Prize, the Fish Prize, and the Bristol Prize. She also won the Labello Prize for short fiction in 2014, and the Ringwood short story competition in 2022. I'm Madeline, I'm your host for today, and it is so lovely to have you here to talk about Kitten Heels. Thank you for having me. Yeah, thank you. So a few questions that I have so far. We'll start off with this one first.

What inspired you to write Kitten Heels?

Maureen: Well, Kitten Heels came from, um, four short stories that I had written for a short story collection. Um, so the short stories themselves were inspired by, um, the Kennedy assassination in 1963. It was something I was interested in and I wrote a short story about that.

And, well, relating to that set in my hometown of Dumbarton, um, at the time, because I was aware, even as a small child at that time, that it had an effect on my grandparents. Um, who were, um, very shocked by this and I learned over the years that, um, actually did have quite an effect on people in the west of Scotland, um, this, this event.

So I was interested in pulling together a collection of short stories that, uh, around that time and that era. So Kathleen was part of that. Um, and then what happened was that, um, I sent the short story collection to an agent. Now agents aren't normally interested in short story collections. So I was really just trying my hand.

I thought I'll send it out anyway. And I did get a good response from this agent, um, but what she did was she said, you know, I can't really, um, Can't really represent you for this, but I'm interested in this character and she'd make a good novel. So go away and write a novel. So really that's, that's where it came from.

I went away and wrote the novel. That's great. And how long did it take you to write the novel? It took me, I'm trying, to think back about that. I think the concentrated work took about four or five months, um, that was to get the first draft, um, down. But after that, I mean, it's taken, that was 2018 19, it's taken that time for publication.

And I haven't been working on it all the time. Um, I had it down, I edited it, I proofed it, I rewrote parts of it, that went on for a couple of years, and then I put it away. and didn't bother with it, went on with the short stories. So, um, it was only when I won Ringwood's short story competition with Kathleen's story that, um, it got pulled back out of the drawer and, um, published.

Madeline: That's great. Well, I'm glad it's out of the drawer and has been published. It's a wonderful book. What are the similarities and differences that you found in writing short stories and novels, and how is the experience of combining the short stories into the greater Kitten Heels novel?

Maureen: Well, um, I've only written one novel, so, um, maybe the next one will be a different experience, but, um, I found it, It's the same in terms of, you know, using writing skills.

I mean, they're all, it's the same character, plot, building an imaginary world, but trying to make it, um, true to life. Uh, so that's all the same. The difference was trying to hold it all in your head, uh, which I couldn't do, and I don't know if, you know, Many novelists can, but I certainly couldn't do it. But I'm used to doing that with poetry and short stories.

That's why I favoured those, those forms. Because I could, I actually didn't need paper and pen. I could keep things going in my head. You know, the beginning, the middle, the end, how things were moving. So, the novel kind of floored me that way. Because I couldn't remember what had happened, you know, four, five, six chapters back.

Trying to keep everything consistent was difficult. was more difficult. And the other thing that I learned was that, um, in short story writing, you don't have to resolve anything really. It's not essential. It's probably essential not to resolve matters. So I finished the book on the penultimate chapter of Kitten Heels.

That was the, the end of it. And it just, uh, you know, there's no, I haven't tied anything up. I've just left it like a short story. So I did the last chapter to finish it. So that was a big change. That was a big difference as well. So those, those really. And, um, no spoilers, but the last chapter really made it.

come together so well and so neatly in terms of the relationship between Kathleen and her family members as well and the possessions that she had in the end also. It was just so lovely to see it wrapped up. Yeah, I was so pleased that I did that last chapter. It really was. It really delighted me, even as I was writing it.

I thought, well, I needed to do that. You mentioned before, I think you can visually see it. Do you write things by hand? Do you use a computer? Different apps? What's your creative process in getting your ideas down? I write with pen and paper to start with. Um, and, uh, when I've got a sort of. both for short stories and poetry.

I've got a beginning, middle and end. Then I transfer it onto the laptop and then I work on it on the laptop. And with Kitten Heels, that kind of works chapter by chapter. I didn't write, you know, a whole notebook full of the novel. After every chapter had a draft of a chapter, I'd put it onto the laptop and build it up that way.

So, uh, yeah, that's, that's the, the process, um, and I do tend to, uh, edit and proof as I go along as well. That's great. And then for listeners who may not be, who may be unfamiliar, can you explain what Scots is? And similarly, what was the process like in incorporating Scots into this text? Yeah. Well, I think, um, my understanding of Scots is that it's varied.

It's a varied, um, set of dialects that make up Scots language. And Scots language is a mix of English and Scots mostly, um, unless you're looking at Gaelic, but that would be a separate, uh, definition, I think. So Scots language for me is really the way I speak. And, um, yeah. how I hear people in my, um, vicinity speak.

I mean, it has changed. It's not as prevalent as it was when I was young, for instance. Um, but it's still very, very alive. When I was young, you were, um, you were told off. You were talking slang if you were talking Scots, if you were using Scots words. And it was frowned on, not in, not in the family environment, in the school environment.

I think that's stopped now. I think the government have accepted and embraced the fact that this language is something that should be. Um, applauded and encouraged, so. Now hopefully it is, but I don't know what's going on in the schools now. In terms of writing it now, that's a different, it is a different animal actually, because um, I'm always aware that I'm writing a dual language.

I'm writing English and Scots at the same time, and it's so easy to fall into the English, you know, if you've been using I for a character for yes, and then you use yes. further down the line. You've got to be careful of that kind of thing. And it's, um, I don't know any software that does it. I have to do it by, by eye all the time.

Just keep going back over the documents. Um, I do have find and replace. I can use that as well as, which is helpful. Um, the other thing that's tricky about it is different characters have different use of Scots. Um, it's not all the same for each character and that's what I've found in life. Everybody's different and have a different preferences as to how they speak.

And it's a useful writing tool to be able to distinguish characters as well. But you have to be consistent with each character. as well. So that, that's the tricky bit, but I think it's worth it in the end for me because it feels real to me when I'm reading back. Can you share a few examples of how you use Scots in different ways with different characters in Kitten Heels?

Yeah, well for instance with Kathleen, I was aware that Kathleen is the first person narrator, so her voice is in the book. Every page is there. Um, so I didn't want to overwhelm the page with a lot of Scots and some, I've learned that some, some repetitive words don't, um, read well. They might sound well when you're speaking, but they don't read well.

Like I haven't used, for instance, a for I for Kathleen because she says I a lot. And the most readers can, um, that's, it's not a word that stands out to them, even though it's used a lot, but if you use uh, then it's going to stand out right out of the page. And I think that's, um, it's a compromise, um, in terms of writing that I would do, because normally I would probably, well I do, you probably hear it, uh, I would say, uh, I do this and I do that.

But for Kathleen, I had to compromise and use uh, I, and actually I've given her less. Less dialect, less Scots words than the other characters, because they're not prevalent, as prevalent as she is. So that's one example, I think. It's a great example.

Madeline: You conveyed her voice so well in the text, and what is your experience in writing for children?

Oh, I have none. No experience at all. No ambition to write for children either. I think that's a different animal. I found Kathleen to be a strong, relatable character in many ways. She's a caregiver for her family, taking on the role of an adult, even though she's just a child, just a teenager. And there are millions of unpaid caregivers around the world, and what is your hope in describing Kathleen as a caregiver in this way?

Well, I think, um, Capping at 13, 14, um, would have to be given some respect really for having some maturity, uh, of thought and, and reason, and it has capability to care. There's no, no doubt about that, but it's the matter of support, I think, that's important both for her in this story and for, Um, any readers, any young people who are reading this book, I would hope that there would be a community around them to help them.

But I know, and we all know, from what we hear in the media, that that's not always the case. But hopefully they'd be able to identify someone like Auntie Sheila who They can, um, confide in and get support from as a first, at least a first point of contact to other services. I'm not sure how much is around for young people in terms of services, in terms of being carers these days, but we need to, we need to be aware of it and promote awareness of that, I think.

Aunt Sheila is one of my favorite characters. How did you come up with her character? Well, she is the one, I would say, the one character in the book who was based on an actual real person. Um, but she morphed into Sheila. She's nothing like the person that I started off with. Um, but she did definitely give me the idea.

Some of the funny stories are family stories. And, um, this. person was Sheila. But as I say, Sheila just morphed into her own character really as I wrote her, you know. So, uh, yeah, so she was, um, based on a real person, yeah. Yeah, and there are a few instances also in the story that seemed like they could have happened in real life as well.

I mean, even the opening image of Kathleen's You know, bed being taken and donated and having, you know, being given a new one as well. Were there any other scenes or bits of dialogue that were inspired from real life that you incorporated in Kitten Heels? Um, yes, there was. I'm trying to think of specific ones that would have been.

Oh, yes. I mean, I remember getting the belt at school, you know, from the nun. That was, uh, seared into my head, you know, um, Kathleen didn't get the belt in this. particular scene, but I did, and it wasn't unusual, um, to be given the strap. So that was, that was one. The confessional books ones are my one experience, really, you know.

Those are great scenes also, the confessional. They're always, I mean, there's always humor to be had in that kind of situation, I think. So yes, that, that as well. I mean, the circumstances are that, um, I was brought up in a single parent family, but it was a wee bit later than Kathleen's time, um, because Kathleen would be older than me.

Um, so there's some of that is, you know, the, where we lived and the place, um, it's got, I mean, I've named the, It plays havoc, but I mean it's, it's not all that difficult to deduce that it's based on Dumbarton, which is where I was brought up, but there are differences. I made differences because I wanted it to be more Clydeside so that, you know, people who in Glasgow or Clydebank or Helensburgh would also recognize the kind of, uh, Houses and churches and, you know, schools that run around them, so.

In this story, the subject of abuse comes up in different instances in different ways, and how was it for you as the author writing these scenes? Was anything based on real life experiences or inspired from real events? Well, I think, um, when I, when I write about, I write about abuse a lot, domestic abuse and child abuse, um, but I was a social worker for 30 years.

So actually I've, I've written far, far more, um, uh, distressing, uh, reports about child abuse and domestic abuse than is in, um, kitten heels, uh, and real, real, uh, based on real events and spoken and sat with people who suffered, um, this, uh, Uh, abuses. So, writing an infection isn't as hard as that. So, you know, because I knew it was made up.

It wasn't real. Um, but I want it to be true to life. So, um, hopefully it comes across as true to life, even though it's imagined in that instance. Um, yeah, so based on real life experience, yes, not directly, but yes, in terms of my work before. And also, I mean, it's, it's, it's everywhere, isn't it? I mean, you can't avoid it.

And even today, I mean, this, this is the 60s I'm talking about. I'm not sure there's an awful lot of progress being made in terms of domestic abuse and abuse of women in society. Uh, so. Um, I think it does have, um, it is pertinent to. Yeah, I think that the way, the way you handled these scenes was really well done, and the descriptions and writing through them, from Kathleen's point of view especially, was, was really great.

Um, and I don't want to give away any spoilers, but there is a portion of this book that deals with a character's choice on whether or not to I mean, I thought you handled that, again, sensitive nature of this really well. And how was it for you to write and research this? You, I think, touched on it before.

But I guess in this particular, um, scene, or various scenes, I'm wondering how it was for you. The research was quite difficult, actually. Um, I couldn't really get an awful lot of information about what actually happened on the ground in Scotland. There was quite a lot of literature about England, um, before the Abortion Act, what was going on.

Um, and there was some kind of, um, indication that there were some doctors in Scotland who would perform abortion on, uh, for women who had, um, extreme, extreme situations, you know. But I couldn't really find anything factual about that. So I think in, in the book, Kathleen doesn't really, um, she doesn't conclude anything because as a writer, I couldn't really find anything to conclude.

And I assumed that she wouldn't have at that time either. Um, so, uh, so it was a bit frustrating in terms of the research. In terms of the writing it, um, I don't think it wasn't particularly difficult. It's, um, uh, so, you know, it's a subject that's going to be It's constant. I mean, look at America, um, today, for instance, um, it's uneven.

I mean, in Scotland, um, the church, I mean, I'm, I'm a practicing Catholic, but, um, I am aware that, you know, there's a lot of pressure being put on politically, um, against abortion. in Scotland. Um, so it's a, it's an issue that's always in forefront. So it wasn't that difficult to actually write about it, not emotionally, anyway.

I think also in this story, there's a strong emphasis on education and Kathleen, despite having a part time job and caregiving, Um, roles and duties still manages to excel in her classes. And I think what changes do you think could be made or it can be made and the education system to help students like Kathleen who have such varied roles to their family and the different things going on in their lives.

Well, I think it's about support, but I'm not sure how much support is actually available for children. I can't really comment on the school system today. I have grandchildren, but they've been educated in England. So I'm not really, um, happy with what's happening in Scotland just now, but from, you know, just from the media, I think there's a scarcity of resources.

So as always, it's the, um, the most needed that don't get there. the help. So Kathleen would go into that category, I think, and not get assistance, which is a worry, really. Yeah, I think this has been touched on also, but um, this text, though it was set in the 1960s, has a lot of timeless, relatable concepts and themes that are present today, you know, many decades later.

Madeline: But what is your hope in sharing Kathleen's story in Kitten Heels? Well, do you know what Kathleen was experiencing in 1962? You know, a male driven society, um, where women's rights were, were, well, absent. Uh, And actually, I mean, we have come on a lot in the last 50 years. I mean, I'm not saying we're in the same place that we were then, but, um, equality is not, has not been achieved between men and women in, in many aspects of life.

Maureen: And I think for young women, I would, I'd like to think that if they read Kitten Heels, they'd see how bad it was then, actually. Um. But be aware that these, these, um, rights have been hard fought for, and they're not, um, they're not written in stone, um, they can be reversed, and are being reversed in, in places in the world.

Um, and, and we're not even nearly there in terms of, um, you know, there, there is, you know, Um, a scene in, uh, Kitten Heels about, um, male violence. And, um, men are not being prosecuted and women are not receiving justice even now. So, um, has a lot changed? Yes and no. So I would like, I would just like, you know, that awareness, um, from Kitten Heels, um, in, in the reader, I think, would be, um, good.

I got it. I would think that would be good. I would like to think that that happened, that I did something to, you know, gee up a wee bit and think, oh hey, wait a minute, this was bad, but is it a lot better? But, you know, what can we do now? I have to be aware of, um, inequality.

Madeline: Very well said, Maureen. What are you working on next? Do you have another story idea? Do you have another novel idea, short stories? What are you thinking of writing or working on next?

Maureen: Um, I have a couple of novel ideas, so I'm, I'm kind of exploring that at the moment. And I don't, I don't have to go one way or the other, so I have a choice as to. where I'm going. Um, I have got a collection of short stories, but I mean, the ones that the collection I mentioned, which I'm hoping to publish at some point. So, uh, watch this space. I don't know yet. Yes, for sure.

Madeline: Oh, that's so exciting. Congratulations, Maureen, on this finished collection. I'm looking forward to reading them when they're finished. When they are published as well. Thank you so much, Maureen, for joining Ringwood Publishing's podcast. Kitten Heels is now on sale on Ringwood Publishing's website.