Writing Glasgow Noir with Short Story Competition Winner J S Apsley

On this week's episode, interns Efa Walker, Isaac Hattam and Katie McGowan chat with J. S. Apsley, the winner of Ringwood's Short Story Competition 2024 about his submission Immersion, the tale of a lonely woman's unnatural obsession with Dali's masterpiece Christ of St. John of the Cross. 

John gives us some fascinating insights on writing Glasgow Noir and his experience of delving into the dark underbelly of this gothic city, which has been a rich site of inspiration for his work. We also hear about John's process for creating short fiction specifically, and his experience in transitioning from non-fiction writing to this exciting new genre, and get some great advice for anyone aspiring to write or publish their own short fiction.

Make sure to head to Ringwood's website after listening, where you can find the winning title, as well as the fabulous stories of our runners up! 

Transcript

Efa:  Hello. Welcome to the Ringwood Publishing Podcast. Each week we are joined by a series of authors, colleagues, and guests to talk about all things, books and publishing.

Hello everyone and welcome to Season five, episode two of the Ringwood Publishing podcast. My name is Efa Walker and I am one of your co-hosts this season. 

Katie: My name's Katie. 

Isaac: And I'm Isaac. 

Efa: So on today's episode, we are lucky to be joined by JS Apsley, who is the winner of Ringwood short story competition 2024.

Apsley’s submission is titled Immersion. Is the story of a lonely woman who becomes infatuated with Dali's masterpiece, Christ of St. John of the cross. A profound sense of foreboding purveys throughout the entire story as her relationship with the painting reaches an unnatural apex and leads to a very traumatic confrontation, without giving too many spoilers away. So without further do, let's welcome the author himself to give us some insight on this incredible story. Hello John. 

John: Good afternoon everyone. Delighted to be here this afternoon and great to chat with you about this story. 

Efa: It's lovely to have you here, so let's get straight into it. So, very surprisingly, immersion is your debut fiction submission. So I'd love to know what moved you to apply to the Ringwood competition. Have this story kind of been waiting in the drafts, or was it written with a competition in mind? And what motivated your turn to fiction? As I know you've written some nonfiction up until this point. 

John: Yeah, well, I was attracted to the Ringwood competition because it’s a Glasgow based publisher, I, as you can tell from the accent, I'm a, a Glasgow based man and I have a, a passion and fondness for my city. And of course, the city plays a big part in the story that ended up winning the competition. So I decided that I thought it might be a good fit for, for the, the Ringwood competition because Glasgow does play an intrinsic part in it. So that was the reason why, I entered the competition.

It was something over a whim on the basis that I had the story. I'd written it. I wasn't quite sure what to do with it. And then I started looking into how an aspiring, budding new fiction author might start to think about placing some short stories. And I came across the competition and I thought, ah, well, you know, might as well put the story in and, and see what comes of it.

So, it had already been written. So you asked if I'd had it sat in the drafts. Yes, is the short answer to that if. I had the story written already. So, it was one that I thought would fit well, I did look at some of the previous winners on your website and, you know, had a look through all of that as well and I just thought, ah, I'll take a chance.

You know, roll the dice, don't ask, don't get, and yeah, just amazed and, you know, really, really fortunate and blessed to be fortunate enough to have, to have actually won the thing. 

Efa: And what was your reaction when you found out you won? 

John: Well, amazed, absolutely amazed and delighted. I remember going down to speak to my wife, Angie, to let her know, and I was holding my phone looking at the email, you know, just really, really joyful.

You know, for, for someone who wants to try to be an author, to have someone recognize a piece of writing and for it to actually win a prize I mean, cloud nine. I mean, Angie would tell you, I think I was walking around for days, just trying to acclimatize to the fact that something had written had actually, you know, gone down so well.

So, it was a wonderful thing. I'm really, really grateful to Ringwood for the opportunity that that's given.  And one of the things I think, which is really important for me is that feedback of, of that nature, it's inspiring. So, I think being a wannabe fiction author, you can go through periods of real self-crushing doubt about whether or not you're just wasting your time. So to have that, my reaction was definitely joyful. I'm still really super enthusiastic about the fact that I won it. It was brilliant.

Katie: Yeah. I'm just gonna ask you bit about your inspiration behind the story. So obviously the real life painting, Christ of St. John of the Cross is incredible piece of art. So how did you go about imagining a story related to it?

John: Well, I think the actual painting itself is a key character of the story. You know, itself, the painting itself is a character and maybe the city is a character as well to some extent. I think like many people who are aware of the painting, it's just incredible. What an inspiring piece of art it is. And as someone who is in their mid forties and who has been to see this painting from when I was a wee boy up until recently, you know, it's always been a part of Glasgow. It's always been really famous as being one of our principle pieces of art that we have on public display. I wanted to write a story that was a deeply Glaswegian story, but whilst also trying to do something that was mysterious and thrilling to some extent.

So, the reason I focused on that was because I think it is an artwork which is so associated with Glasgow but I think all sort of itself is a masterpiece. Some of the joy of writing the story was doing the research on the work itself. Going back to the Kelvingrove Art Gallery and just standing, looking at it and trying to let it inspire me.

And I took my daughter Abigail, she's five. And after the story won the prize, I, I took her and I also spoke to her about it, and I took her, I saw other people with their children and it just, going to see it as well. And I thought that was such a great thing that you know, that across all these decades that has been on display there, it keeps bringing new people in who want to see it and hopefully be inspired by it as well.

So it's an incredible piece of work. It's also got a really controversial history, and that was one of the things that I wanted to try to tease out in that story as well. If you read upon the history of it, because of the religious element of it, the city of Glasgow has had over a number of years, some real dalliances, if I can use that pun with the Dali in the sense that, you know, there was a lot of people who were really upset about the painting because they believed that we was sacrilegious in some way. There was also a famous incident where a man did actually attack the painting with a knife, and I took, inspiration from that as well. So, when you actually look at the painting, it itself is an inspiration, but it's also got this wider cultural and social life, you know, in Glasgow, outside of the, the four corners of the canvas. So, I mean, what more could you want, you know, if you want to go and be inspired by something. Well, there you have it.

Katie: Yeah. And you mentioned there Glasgow as a city, as a character in the book, and so I just wanted to ask how the kind of gothic nature of Glasgow feeds into the story. 

John: Well, I think the story I'll avoid spoilers as well, but the story obviously is a thriller of some description, and I think that Glasgow, I think is accepted by most people as a city that has dark corners, and it's a city that does have a gothic history. You look at the architecture, Jess, the principal, protagonist in the story reminisces around her father, I believe, if I remember correctly, who says, “if you want to know Glasgow, you've always got to look up”. And she comes across an elderly guard in the story, a security card called Bill, whose always looking up. I think the architecture of the city and I include the Kelvingrove in that, but the wider architecture is part of the rich vein of what I think adds up to the gothic nature of Glasgow. And I did want to tap into that because it is a story that has well, I hope it's a story that has some scary moments as well.

So, yeah, Glasgow, I think being gothic background, definitely. I’m reminded that Glasgow is quite often compared to Gotham, the city where Batman comes from, and it's quite reminiscent in that sense as well. So I think that those dark corners, those dark ages, those life experiences, which are below the neon lights of the city windows, that all adds to the mystery of Glasgow, to tap into that and exploit it.

Katie: Have you had any experiences kinda similar to that of Jess? I know you kind of talked about how you yourself found inspiration from the Dali painting, but even just, kind of diving into that again, or if there's another painting, maybe not to the same extent, obviously, that Jess kinda experienced that painting, but has a piece of art ever really touched you in a similar way? And is that kind of what influenced your writing of Jess maybe? 

John: Well, thankfully I don't think I've had a, a directly compatible experience to Jess. 'cause I think I'd be in jail if that had been the case. But, I think the inspiration, I think, actually as the museum as a whole, I've got such strong memories of walking through the old wooden doors at Kelvingrove Art Gallery in particular the revolving door.

I've got such strong memories when my mum and dad, and I think my grandparents took me there when I was a wee boy back in the eighties. And it was like, it was like going back in time you know, walking through the revolving door – in a way that's exactly what going into that museum is, it is like stepping back in time because of course that's what most of the exhibits are. There's a lot of modern stuff in there as well, of course, but I think that ability to transcend, you know, that, Kelvingrove Art Gallery brings. The museum itself as a whole, you know, you walk in there and you feel it you're part of a history and there's so much in there that's about the history of Glasgow itself, but obviously beyond that in terms of some of the artworks that they have.

So I think the marble arches, the high walls, the boy that plays the organ at three o'clock when people are sitting eating their sandwiches. You know, all of that. I think if you, if you try and distil all of that, you can see how a young boy who would be influenced hopefully in a positive way by all of that. And I mean, it might have taken me 35 years to get there, but ultimately I did manage to write a story, which I suppose in some ways is a love letter to those experiences.

And although this story is darker style of story 'cause that's what I enjoy writing, I think it is the enjoyment that I took as a whole, if, if not just the Dali, but the wider inspiration across all of the art and all of the displays that are in the museum. 

Isaac: Absolutely. And I for one, love the combination of the realism and the gothic in there as well. A lot of what we're reading is quite ambiguous as to whether things are in Jess’s mind or in reality. So how did you balance these modes? Is it, is the genre something you're interested in exploring in any of the rest of your short stories?

John: Well, yes is the short answer. I've always been interested in the dark edges, the mysteriously unknown. That's really what inspires me to write and you're quite right that in Immersion there is ambiguity around it. I'm trying to avoid spoilers as best I can now, but I suppose that there are particular scenes as the story unfolds that, are designed to be shocking and are designed to create a sense of fear in the reader.

And I think I knew I was on the right lines when I was driving with my wife and my daughter down to see my brother and sister-in-law. And I, I was telling my wife about the story, so I was talking her through what I was going to do. And I told her about a particular scene where things really take a step into the Twilight Zone, if I can use that phrase. And my wife Angie was shocked. And I just remember thinking, I'm on the right track here, you know, I'm on the right track. And there's that one particular scene where things do swerve into that kind of thriller, gothic style approach, I just felt like I was doing the right thing with it.

And so I suppose I can blame my wife for inspiring me to go and finish the thing 'cause she thought it was quite scary. So that definitely is the case. And in terms of the wider comment, Isaac, absolutely, I think back to when I was a younger boy and what authors I read when I was a boy and what inspired me and Roald Dahl is a really good example of it, you know, I mean Roald Dahl is such a famous children's author, but boy are some of his story dark, you know? And of course he's famous for the adult stuff as well, you know, Tales of the Unexpected and so on. But you know, you go and read a Roald Dahl story and those young children getting boiled and pots and uh, bald witches trying to turn them into mice and all sorts of things.

Isaac: So with all that, really interesting stuff there. And yeah, a lot of different stories like that and this it's great that you wanna explore those themes and everything. And, so with all that, what was your process in writing this short story as obviously a short story specifically is such an interesting genre, to be able to fit in this kind of build-up and climax within short space is, is a real skill. So, what was your process behind that?

John: Well, I think I'm a real stream of consciousness writer. I don't even know if I'm allowed to call myself a writer to be honest. But, I'd love to be thought of in that sense, but I'm a real stream of consciousness writer. I sit down with a blank page. I've got a rough idea of what I think my story's gonna be, and I just get steamed in.

I know that various different people take different approaches to this, and there are people who will do plans and organigrams and all sorts of stuff like that, but none of that really works for me. I'm quite happy just to sit down on my blank page with my words on the screen and just to try to get the story out there and get it done.

And, and I think with my limited experience in, in fiction writing, that seems to have worked for me. So for me, the approach is splurge. You know, get the story down there and then go back and, and spend some time refining it, making sure that it makes sense internally, no inconsistencies, trying to improve on the language, trying to create the atmospheres that you're trying to create, and being true to the characters as well. I think, you know, with a short story, you've got a very small window to try to create a connection between the reader and the character. And I think you really want to do that because if you want something dark or thrilling to happen to that character, then I think the reader needs to have some sort of emotional investment in the character to really fuel what, what has happened to them. 

So for me, there's a kind of few processes there. Get the whole thing down, go back and, and then take some time.  Because of my, past experiences in nonfiction work, I feel I've got a reasonable grasp of self-editing, 'cause I've done a, a number of nonfiction books over the years. But listen, there's absolutely no harm in, sharing the love, and sending  your story to people that will, will give you some feedback and don't be afraid to give it to, if it's someone in your family that you know won't guild a lily and will, you know, give you both barrels, that's the right person to give your story to, you know, and to take that feedback on. If you give your story to your mum, your mum’s gonna say, oh, this is the best thing since sliced bread. Um, or maybe not. It depends on your mum. But, yeah, I think, don't be afraid to take reviews of others as a part of your process, you know, and craft it and hone it. And hopefully you end up with a story that's enjoyable, and says something.

But I think for me, if you can have that external validation where someone else has enjoyed reading the story, then that's great. But, thankfully, I'm lucky in the sense that I just enjoy the process. For me, it's an enjoyable way to spend an hour writing a piece. And that for me is, enough and anything else is a bonus.

Efa: That's also interesting. Thank you. I think that is really interesting that it's kind of a stream of consciousness process and then you kind of edit arc. I think that's such a fascinating way to write something in a short form as well. Speaking to that enjoyment of writing short form. You've mentioned that this story is set to be part of a wider collection.

I’m just wondering how these kind of stories are grouped together. Do you kind of think about recurrent themes or settings, potentially characters? And how did this kind of compare, do you think, to writing a longer work of fiction? Do you kind of treat each story as its own independent standalone, or is it kind of part of a big work you've got in your mind where each one is a bit of a chapter? What do you, what do you think about kind of the wider collection? 

John: Well, I've got this aspiration to write a series, or a collection of short stories based on, let, let me call it Glasgow Noir. And Immersion would be an example of that. You know, it's clearly a Glaswegian story, but it's one with a twist.

You know, it's maybe episodic in the sense that, if someone asked me to describe what the short story collection would be, I would say it would be like watching the Twilight Zone but every story set in Glasgow. That's what I'm going for. It's stories which are unnerving, perhaps frightening. In some cases it may be genre specific, so in some cases it may be a kind of full blown horror. Immersion's not a horror in that sense, although there are some horror elements to it. But there are other stories that I've worked on and have completed where I think I would admit they are full blown horror and that's just the stuff that I like to write, just what I've always been attracted to. I’ve been working on some other short stories and the principle link between them I think is that Glasgow and Scotland is an inspiration. And it's that kind of factor of the unknown, the dark edges as I said earlier. I've had a couple of stories picked up for publication from some independent magazines as well, which has been amazing. And the only reason that those stories now sort of exist and at some point will hopefully go out into publication is because I was inspired by the Ringwood Prize. If I haven't won that prize, all these stories would be sitting in my folder, on my laptop. Might never have seen the light of day. But, I suppose it's a real case of, you know, don't give up with these things, you know, and, it's been a really lovely experience for me, to return to those stories and say maybe, maybe there's something in this, maybe someone else might enjoy reading them as well.

And so I'm trying to pull those together. See if other people might be interested in them, in publishing them. And these things don't happen overnight. You know it will take a while, but that's okay because I'm enjoying the process and if I'm lucky and I manage to finish and have some of these other short stories published, then it would be lovely to think that I could bring them together in a collection, and that's something to aspire to for the future.

Efa: That's all so inspiring. That’s such an inspiration to anyone whose kind of doing some writing on the side and just has these things sitting in word documents in drafts and doesn't know what to do with them. 

You're so right to just go for it ultimately.  And it's so exciting to hear that there's some more stories in the pipeline and that some things are looking very set to be published and other magazines, people should keep an eye out for those if you liked Immersion. But yeah, I think you've pretty much answered what the rest of your year is gonna look like, unless there's anything else you'd like to add there.  

John: No, other than to say, just again, I'm so delighted to have the opportunity that the Ringwood Prize has given me, my last comment would be to say, I would like to say to people who are listening to the podcast, who may be sitting all in stories of their own, maybe experiencing some of that crushing self-doubt that I referred to earlier to take a chance, dig those stories out, have a look at them, send them out to someone, see what they think.

Have, have a go, live your dream. Go for it.

Isaac: Amazing. Absolutely.

Katie: And I'm sure we'll all be looking out for what you come out with this year.  So we just want to say a big congratulations again, and thank you so much for joining us. Immersion is available to read on the Ringwood website alongside the fabulous stories of our runners up. 

Efa: Yeah. Thank you so much, John, for joining us. That was all so inspiring. And a big thank you to all of our listeners to the podcast. Look out for the next episodes of this season, which are coming up where we'll be chatting more about all things, books and publishing.