Hello and welcome back to Fashion and Founders Podcast. My name is Victoria Smith, and this week I'm joined by Kaylee Ray, the VP of Business Development and Partnerships at ShopMai. Whether you are a creator, a founder, a brand, or someone using social media to build their business and income, Kaylee has incredible information. To the point we're at the end of the episode, we are talking about when we were going to do a part two. For creators who want to get onto the platform, we cover how to get onto ShopMai, how to get the most out of the platform, how to get gifting, paid opportunities, and partnerships. Whether you're just starting out or you're pretty familiar, Kaylee shares how to continue to grow. For brands, we talk about the best ways to actually partner with creators, the different use cases for ShopMai, and what to expect out of different campaigns and features on the platform. And for founders, ShopMai has an evaluation of 1.5 billion. Kaylee sheds light on what she thinks has made ShopMai truly stick and stand out and where she sees the future of the creator economy going. If you're not on the platform yet, I'll be sharing my referral link in the episode notes. I am so excited to share this episode. It is truly a ShopMai success guide. So let's get into it. And if you're able to leave the podcast a rating, a review, and follow or subscribe wherever you listen, it really helps the show grow and helps us continue to get incredible guests like Kaylee. One of my favorite services now in fashion that I truly look forward to every single month is my Rent the Runway subscription. And I did the math for you guys so you can see just how good it is. They gave me a code to share with podcast listeners. So Rent Thunway starts out at $129 a month for five pieces. If you add in the 50% off code, that comes to $64.50 total. So that's $12.90 a piece. So then you get to wear a $1,000 dress for essentially $13. And I honestly love renting things. I love having it for a specific occasion for a reason and then sending it back and not having that clutter in my home. If I decide that I love the piece or really wish I actually always had this, they almost always have a discount happening that allows you to buy it for 50% off. So then you can get that piece. And it's just such a hack. I think they're often also new with tags I've received things. So it's code in all caps RTRX V Smith50 that you can use to get rent the runway for 50% off your membership. It's their most competitive deal out there right now. So don't miss it. Well,
hi, Kaylee. Hi. I am so excited to have you on the podcast. ShopMai is one of my favorite companies recently. I feel like everyone's been obsessed with it, and I can't wait to hear how you got there.
SPEAKER_00Thank you so much for having me.
SPEAKER_01Truly honored and so excited to chat. You've held such interesting roles there. You joined as the head of creators. Yep. And now you're VP of partnerships and business development. What does that look like at Shopmai?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so kind of my my arc to getting there is quite long. So I studied advertising and fashion media at SMU. And during that time, it was really like the true rise of fashion bloggers. So this was about 2011. And simultaneously, two SMU alums were kind of creating one of the very first creator monetization platforms. So I feel like I had this front row seat to what we now have like defined as the creator economy. And I think I really developed conviction early on that creators were going to be entrepreneurs and big businesses. And so I feel very fortunate that in my roles prior to ShopMai and now at ShopMai, like that's something I get to help do is them grow their entrepreneurial journey and their businesses. And so prior to being at Shop My, I was at another creator economy platform that helped creators aggregate kind of all of their offerings together and really understand the data so they could better speak to their audiences and target their audiences. And so given my familiarity with affiliate, I was like, okay, well, affiliate is going to grow and be huge. Let's find an affiliate partner, you know, so people can have access to that data and make product recommendations and got connected to Harry and Chris and Tiffany, our three co-founders of what was Shop My Shelf at the time. So they were pretty exclusively working with like dermatologists, aestheticians, and in the skincare space. But as we did the partnership, similar to what you just said, I was blown away by the product. I was like, do you guys know what you have and what you've built? So I think we all really connected and had this shared vision that creators weren't yet able to articulate their value. And that's really kind of like all what we were trying to do and build. So they ended up bringing me over to build out the creator side of the business. And today that's still my focus. But given, you know, all of our growth kind of business development and partnerships, we we work with creators in a ton of different ways. So I oversee kind of all of that and really are strategic and VIP creators now. Such a cool job that you have.
SPEAKER_01And I love how you said that creators are entrepreneurs. I've thought that for a while, and I don't think they often get enough credit for the work that they're doing.
SPEAKER_00No.
SPEAKER_01So I definitely want to circle back to that. But I kind of want to start with probably the top question for most people. What
do brands want from creators? Is there something you're like this, that, and you're pretty set to work with people?
SPEAKER_00You know, I think it's really hard to define a creator. There's not just one type. And so you have some creators that define and shape culture. You have other creators that are shaping taste, which is where ShopMai really leans in. And then you have creators that are, you know, shaping purchase decisions and behavior. And obviously the magic happens when there's those, you know, few and unique creators that combine all of that and shape all three. But I do think for decades we've been speaking about creators as if they're media channels. And that is true for some of them. Some are great storytellers, some are great content creators, but I do think there's been a big shift where people are starting to realize that creators can also be distribution channels and, you know, really shape the purchasing decisions of consumers. And we've really taken that bet. And so I think a brand just has to understand like what type of creator that they're working with or what their goals are, and then articulate that to creators because that's where like that secret sauce is, right? Creators have developed their platforms, grown their communities, and ultimately they know how to do it best. So if a brand is telling a creator that we this is like a big marketing campaign, we're looking for awareness, then they might do something really different than if a brand is like, hey, our goal of working with you is around sales, they're gonna, you know, share and and do things differently with their audience. So I think, you know, sometimes brands think that they're just gonna work with a creator and like boom, magic happens or it's gonna work. But yeah, exactly. And sometimes that does happen and that's wonderful. But I think brands really have to figure out like what type of creator that they want to work with and and kind of go from there.
SPEAKER_01I love that you bring up that distinction because it's a conversation I've had with peers in the industry, influencers, creators who have been around for years, and kind of the question of is the job marketing and brand awareness or is it sales? And if I get a million views, but no one buys, did I do a bad job?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I think, you know, no. I again, creators used to be compensated for attention. And I'd say now they are more compensated for their influence. And so that takes time to build that trust and credibility with your audience. You know, I think I work with a creators of all types and we have a lot of celebrities and larger creators joining the platform because they obviously have amazing taste and want to share. But sometimes at the beginning they underconvert, or I think, you know, are maybe a little bit disappointed in those sales metrics. And I'm like, okay, but you've never told your audience to buy from you before. You've always captured their attention and you've always entertained them, which is valuable, but they've never learned that if they love the top you're wearing or the burgundy pumps you're wearing, that there's gonna be a place for them to go find it and consistently find it. So I'm always encouraging that it takes time to build that trust with your audience that you're going to consistently make those recommendations and kind of train them to shop from you. And I think, you know, the word influencer or it has an interesting stigma where so many calls I get on, people are like, well, I'm not an influencer. And I'm like, but you do influence people. And so you might as well put infrastructure around that and not leave the money on the table and understand what your audience wants from you. So I think, you know, creators can be a mix of both and there's value in in both, but I do think generally the industry is shifting to being compensated for influence over attention.
SPEAKER_01That's really interesting, the celebrity aspect of it too, because Meghan Markle is on Shop My, I believe. Like big names. Yeah.
Is there something that you tell someone who has a great media attention creator, but they're just not converting? You said their audience needs to learn that they can even shop from them. Yeah. Is there a way to do it without pushing sales that doesn't feel authentic?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I mean, I think it it really matters how you're showing up and speaking to your audience, you know. I think if you've never shared a link in an Instagram story before, and all of a sudden you do 20 a day, that's gonna feel jarring to your audience because they're gonna be like, that's not you. What are you doing? So I feel like for every creator, just kind of doing an audit of like your comments, your DMs, what are people asking you for, then giving them that. And I think ShopMai, that's why we've grown so quickly, is because it's such an elevated way. You know, you don't have to be an entertainer to join Shop My. Like we're not powered by video content. We're not even really powered by content. We are built to be platform agnostic so that if your following and community was on Substack, you could easily plug your links in and share those recommendations. Or, you know, I I love Marianna Hewitt as an example because she, you know, of course, is someone of influence, but she's also a brand founder of Summer Fridays. And so she likes to focus a lot of her content, of course, like on her brand and and on being a founder, but she's someone that has amazing taste. So it never fails anything she posts. Her audience is like wanting to know every detail of that. And so she used Instagram's broadcast channel subscription tool to kind of isolate the community for her that's really interested in shopping and wants those recommendations. And it's low lift on her end because she can pop that link in in the broadcast channel and say, these are cool sunglasses I found, or this was the top I was wearing, and kind of know that she's targeting that group of people that really want that information. So I think people, you know, just need to be authentic in where they're sharing and how they're sharing and, you know, their audience will be grateful. I think, you know, maybe this is due to TikTok, but all of our attention spans are really short. And so if I see something on someone or a consumer does and they have to even spend five minutes searching for it, like that's kind of chipped away at the positive experience they have with that person. And that's what I tell a lot of the folks that come to me and they're like, oh, well, I don't want to be seen as an influencer. I'm like, you're actually gonna like gain trust with your audience if they're like, you're providing that value to them and they don't have to take their own time to go find that shirt when you're the one that found it anyway.
SPEAKER_01And I'm sure the brands too, they can see the conversion of like, oh, you're loving our brand naturally, you're posting it, people are buying it, they're viewing it. Let's work together. Does that happen a lot?
SPEAKER_00That's what Shop My that's what Shop My was built for, right? Is to really connect brands and creators. I know I was telling you at the beginning, like a huge shared goal of the founders and myself was helping creators articulate their value. Before Shop My, it was really hard for them to do so. I think the only metrics that a brand or creator had to go off of was follower count or kind of engagement rate. But again, that attention doesn't always convert into sales for someone. And so being able to really say, like, wow, I love this brand. I would talk about it for free. I buy it myself, I love it. That's where those partnerships come from because a brand can see, okay, this is already an organic fit. This already resonates with their audience, they're driving sales. And then ShopMise built a ton of tools for brands to really amplify that partnership. And that's where the most successful partnerships come from for sure.
SPEAKER_01Speaking of those tools, the analytics for the creator side, which is all I've ever seen, is really interesting. I can always tell, like, oh, that person listened to this podcast episode, which took them to the Substack, and that's why they clicked that link. Yeah. Because how else will they have gotten there? So it's really interesting on my
side. What can the brands see? I'm so fascinated.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I mean, the brands can see a lot, very similar, you know, but to it, it's we want transparency on both sides. So all the same metrics that you see as a creator for brands, a brand sees on you as as well. So, of course, like the clicks you're driving on a link, the order volume you're driving on a link, what products, where the content was. We have something on the brand side called the social mentions feed. And so if a creator has connected their social accounts, we integrate, of course, with all the big platforms like Instagram, TikTok, YouTube. That content will pull into a social mentions feed. So a lot of brands discover creators in that way. And I'll explain a little bit more. So let's say we have as we were talking about is it marketing or, you know, is it sales? So let's say a brand is like, you know, a newer brand. They don't have a lot of organic traction yet, and they need kind of more of the discovery of their brand, they might go into the social mentions feed and sort by most Instagram story views because they're looking for that and find creators that are a good fit and reach out to them because of that. Another brand that's really looking to drive sales might go into that social mentions feed and say, okay, sort by the creators that drive like the highest sales on the platform, see their content if it aligns and work with them that way. So that's just one way of discovery on the platform. But brands have a ton of tools to make sure they're making like the right decisions on who to work with.
SPEAKER_01Wow. So even if I've tagged them in a story or mention them in the caption of a video, they can see it. Yep. I don't think I realized that fully. I think I was like, oh, that's some something's there, but I didn't.
SPEAKER_00Yeah. And that's the best way to get discovered by a brand, right? Like even if it is, you just, you know, want gifting because you want to try more products. Like the more you can show the brand, like, hey, I'm interested in you. I'm aware of you. I I really love your brand, the easier it is gonna be to get on their radar. And again, like Shop My becomes that infrastructure for them to find and discover those creators and then kind of build upon that and engage with you.
SPEAKER_01That kind of happened to me recently. There's this brand that I've been wanting their necklace, but it was on like pre-order or back order, and I kept mentioning it on Substack, but I don't think it's integrated to Substack that way yet, right?
SPEAKER_00It's not integrated with Substack yet. So fingers crossed soon. But of course they can see, see the click and click data. So that's why I say there's you know multiple different channels. It's not just content. The analytics dashboard will tell them kind of more holistic metrics overall, like who's promoting them, you know, where, what links. And then you do have a talent card as a creator in the back end. And so, of course, it doesn't reveal any information about like, you know, other brands. But if a brand has the advanced analytics section of, you know, our offering, they'll be able to see overall sales you're driving on the platform per month, like overall Instagram story views you get, and then some other interesting metrics because you have to think like the luxury brands, right, are not gifting at scale like some of the beauty brands can. So when there's 200, you know, creators you're gifting, you're you're thinking about it a little bit differently than if there's five. And so one question I'll get asked from the brand side is like, hey, do you know if Sophia Ritchie accepts gifting? And so a metric we display to brands is gifting response rate. So again, we want to keep it organic and authentic. So it doesn't matter if you dismiss the request or accept the request, but we just at least show brands like, hey, you're in the platform and active. So that's kind of like a best practice and tip and trick I encourage creators to do is just like respond to things in the platform because brands definitely look at that.
SPEAKER_01I was gonna ask, like, how many requests is someone like acquired style getting on ShopMind? Like, is it crazy?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. It's it's pretty crazy, you know. Like that's something we're trying to grow as well. Like an internal KPI we have for our team is, I'm sure you're very familiar with our tiers of like trendsetter icon, but like trendsetter plus to to brand ratio, because those tiers are a point system that's mostly based on activity and monthly order volume. Naturally, like most of the bonus opportunities and gifting requests are going to creators in the trendsetter and icon tiers. So for us, we're obviously trying to grow the amount of of those high converting uh creators for brands to have the option to, but uh uh gift and engage with. But yeah, the top creators definitely uh receive, you know, a lot of of inbound interest from brands.
SPEAKER_01I love to like see the back end of that. This is so interesting. Thank you for sharing. I was kind of gathering some like comments, Instagram story questions. I think one of the most often ones I got was
do I need a certain follower count to join ShopMai? And like, do I need to get a referral code from a friend? Do I need to have this, that? Like, are there requirements?
SPEAKER_00So no, there's not. Like follower count is not a metric we look at. It's not even a metric that we really display to brands in the back end because you know, again, you can have 5,000 followers. And if 50 people are so invested in you and what you recommend and you're selling 50 items every time you share a link, like that can far surpass someone with 5 million followers, you know, who who isn't converting. So, you know, following is is a metric that I think we won't even hear about it for a for a long time, even like when creators say, like, I'm not growing. I'm like, but look at your sales month on month. Like you're growing 100, 100%. Like that's that's crazy. So just it's I I think there's better metrics to look at now to indicate success. So I think you know what we really look for is like, is this person making product recommendations in their content? Are they someone like with good taste? Is this someone we think our brands would be excited to work with? So, no, definitely not like follower count minimums to join, but really we just like make sure you are making product recommendations and are a real human being. So someone kind of goes and looks at the profile.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Ooh, I didn't realize that. Interesting. Another hot topic.
How can someone best set themselves up to get gifting, paid opportunities, and just work with their favorite brands on the platform?
SPEAKER_00I feel like we talked about this a little bit, but it's definitely like, you know, if you can talk about the brand, you know. And I think as we were discussing a little bit earlier about, you know, you don't have to be an entertainer anymore in order to kind of get into this space. Like, I think you can make a career now out of taste. So many of our top accounts, you've probably never seen their face, like their faceless accounts or they're on Substack where it's it's written form and and it's not necessarily like a get ready with me or you know, a TikTok dance that they became known for. I think there's kind of this idea that you have to create that visual content or own the item or photograph yourself in the item in order to make the recommendation. But so many people will like do question boxes and say, like, hey, I'm looking for a wedding guest dress for Italy this month, and someone with really great taste will comb through their favorite brands and the sites and share products that they don't necessarily own, but things that that they like. So I'd always say just like getting on the brand's radar and and kind of showing them that you're organically interested and have mentioned them before is the easiest way.
SPEAKER_01I mean, I think the story mentions and TikTok is really interesting. And I think people need to be doing that more. I didn't realize that. I love how you mentioned taste, and I think it's so interesting that it's becoming such a social currency online now and a way to stand out, feel personal. Shop my tagline is curated by the obsessed, not the algorithm.
Where do you see this focus on taste taking us in the next couple of years?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I think you know, we can't sit down and and have a conversation right now in fashion and tech without obviously addressing AI. I mean, AI is is growing so much, but I think like the bet we're taking is the one thing that AI won't be able to replace is human taste. And, you know, like an AI agent's never gonna feel a fabric or be able to try something on and talk about the fit or, you know, anything like that. And so I think like as all these platforms are being built, you know, that are surfacing product recommendations, they feel more generic, or there's kind of like an erosion of confidence when you don't aren't able to discover the product that you're looking for. And so when that confidence and discovery is lowered, like oh. Ultimately you're gonna turn to the human that you do have confidence in and have a relationship with or really resonate. So I do think that over time, like as I AI starts to take over more things when it comes to personal style, whether that's in fashion or you know, that also transcends to like what your home looks like or the beauty products you're using will really it will be more like human to human.
SPEAKER_01Do you find that more people are beginning to shop from a person? Like I want to shop from Hailey Bieber. What is she buying or the brand itself?
SPEAKER_00Def, I mean, I think we've seen for a long time the person, you know, uh ultimately we talk about the distribution channel that creators are, but I really believe that they're the new retailers, right? Like before the reason that people would shop at a Bergdorfs or a Sachs or a Neiman's or a Nornstrom is because they had buyers who they said they have a really amazing taste. They were taking the time to discover new brands, go through all of the brands offering for that season, buy things that aligned with the department store retailer style and bring it in. And now you have given individuals the ability to do that and kind of in a more even like niche way because they're not needing to speak to, you know, millions of customers that are having foot traffic in that store. Like it's much more digital now. The creator doesn't actually have to like take on the financial burden to buy the items. They can just make the recommendation. And trust me, like a brand would way rather get, you know, that D to C sale where they're paying, you know, the 15 to 20 whatever percent commission to a creator versus the the margins that they lose through retailers. So I definitely think we've seen that that shift towards towards human recommendations because they have the infrastructure and tools to do it at scale, but also, you know, with ShopMai being an open platform where they can recommend anything, it's just allowed for that unique recommendation to live somewhere easily accessible.
SPEAKER_01You mentioned the wholesale partners. We've seen so many sacks, bird dwarves close down, go bankrupt, reshuffle things. Do you think this could potentially take over that?
SPEAKER_00I do believe creators are the new retailers. Listen, like we we work with all the retailers, they're amazing partners of ours. I still think like there's space for them, but I do think it's we've evolved and the industry has moved really quickly. And creators definitely have this spaces as well in retail.
SPEAKER_01I have heard that some people, some creators just move so much product on ShopMai that they could be a store themselves without maybe naming anybody. Like,
how much money are people really making on ShopMai? I think it's kind of hard to wrap our head around some people.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, we have. I mean, we have a lot of ShopMai millionaires, you know. Like in a year, they're making a million. Yeah, that's crazy. Yeah. So, but again, they're like very consistent. They've built that relationship with their audience where their audience knows, like, if X is showing up in the content, like I know I can go find it in their Shop Mire and they know how to shop and they really trust that if there wasn't an affiliate commission or there wasn't a partnership behind it, that that person would recommend it anyway. I think like the creators that don't sell as well are ones where like their audience doesn't necessarily fully believe that like it's something that they use or would wear or trust, or like questions like, is this because of a partnership? And so that's like, I think always my biggest advice to a creator is don't ever accept like a partnership from a brand that you wouldn't promote them for free.
SPEAKER_01I think one of my hot takes is like, don't accept gifting that you know you're not gonna use or post because it's such a waste.
SPEAKER_00It's such a waste. That's like I could go on such about this. My sister is a creator. She, you know, started YouTube super young when she was 16. And we were living in LA together, and PR was very different. You know, this is you know eight years ago now, but just we would have no idea how people would get her address. Boxes and boxes of stuff would show up that were not her size, like every shade range of foundation possible. And we would literally like once a month have to hire someone to go through all of this PR. And while she would get PR that was amazing and so grateful, it was very time consuming and like also kind of sad because like shelters can't accept beauty products, or you just it's it's so wasteful, you don't know what to do with it. So that was a huge thing in us building our lookbooks feature is to implement intent, right? So that you know, a brand could send it to someone and if there wasn't interest, it could go to someone else who had the intent and was interested and then likely would share that product. But I think as a creator, being able to say, I'm interested in trying this product or I'm not, has has changed so much about the industry, let alone like the automation and how it's changed, brands being able to actually gift and scale. And I still say it's okay. Like if you get the product and you don't like it or it doesn't fit and it doesn't align with your taste, zero pressure to recommend it. That's the beauty of affiliate and gifting, is it is organic, but I'm totally with you. If you're just like you have no interest in it, don't accept it.
SPEAKER_01Well, then it just also creates clutter in your home. Yeah. Okay, I kind of want to get into the details of the platform now because you mentioned the lookbooks. The first time I ever got a gifting lookbook, I was like, I've made it. Like I'm gonna go move to LA. I'm getting free stuff now. This is insane.
SPEAKER_00Yeah.
SPEAKER_01It really is such a like verotonin booster. It feels like you're shopping, but you're not sending money. It's crazy. There's a lot of little things like that that I think Shop My has just made better. Yeah. Like it's just better, it's nicer to use, it's more aesthetic, it's easier for
everyone. Can you walk us through some of those features?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. So I'd say, you know, I think you hear this stat that the, you know, creator economy is worth $250 billion and it's gonna be $400, whatever, in the next few years. And so brands get really excited, especially like smaller up and coming ones, that like they can set up an affiliate program and their brand's gonna pop off. And, you know, like so. I think affiliate is just one one piece of it. It's the foundation, right? Where you are incentivizing creators to, you know, talk about you and share, and creators then can earn if if they do drive sales for your business. So it becomes a win-win for everyone. I think from there, we've really tried to build tools that can amplify that and help connect and have the right creators and brands partner together. So, for an example, with you know, a brand, they see creator driving sales, that might be someone they want to gift to, or they see a creator that they'd really like to get on their radar and get their brand in front of, they can gift to them in that way and it's all organized. I think when we launched Lookbooks for the first time, it wasn't just like this spray and play and see what happens. Like brands could actually like see, okay, that person was interested, you know, then like wow, that drove sales and it became less of just a top of funnel and more like, okay, we can work with this person. It can be really meaningful for our business. And then our opportunities feature is something we launched probably two years ago now. Time is is a crazy construct in startup, in startup world. But I think, you know, that feature for me is is kind of underrated on both sides. We've had great adoption of it. But, you know, on the creator side, I hear so often that, you know, when they're in a partnership with a brand and a brand gives them the creative brief and there's approvals and they're making edits on the content, like by the time they're done with it, there's such an embarrassment to post because it's not something that they would have ever created. And then it doesn't convert because it doesn't feel authentic and that the brand should have just like hired an actor. And I think too, because brands hear, like, you know, how powerful affiliate can be and performance can be from creators, they maybe over-index on that a bit. And that kind of stifles the creativity and and taste that goes into why people follow those creators in the first place. So I feel like opportunities kind of evens that playing field where it's not, you know, this partnership where there is a creative brief and contracts and approvals from brands. It really is an incentive for the creator to promote the brand in the way that they feel like is most authentic. So I can say, okay, Victoria, I'm gonna bonus you $1,000 this month if you share three links. Okay. Substackle, Instagram story, broadcast channel, like wherever you feel like it's it's gonna make sense. And usually that performs really well. And so then it's like if you do it, you get that bonus. So it's really just an extension or an amplification of the affiliate earnings. But if you don't, you don't. And for brands, that really can help stabilize their programs, right? Because affiliate is organic at the end of the day. So some months you can have, you know, five of those top creators that we say move a ton of product, promote you, and the next month they don't. And so it can be really hard to predict, you know, your your spend on that marketing. And so opportunities also helps brands better predict that because of that incentive. And we've soft launched a new feature kind of on that. And it's it's called spotlights. And I'm also really excited about that. And, you know, it's it's brands' way to then boost content. So we eventually see opportunities being a great like content lead generator uh for brands, but also the organic content that creators create, oftentimes too. Like brands are giving those creative briefs for the ads and they don't know if it's gonna perform, where Spotlights kind of reverses that and they can see content that's already performing and then work with that creator to put spend behind it. So everything like boils down to infrastructure, kind of as you were saying. Like we see kind of what's happening in the space, how are brands working with creators, and then we're like, how can we make it easier and the most valuable for everyone participating?
SPEAKER_01The spotlight is really smart. Yeah, because it's excited about it. I've been there where you're like, you made me make content that doesn't feel like anything I would have ever made before. And I try to tell you, anyways, I think everyone has been there at some point. Yeah. Is there something like that that you think brands are kind of misunderstanding about influencer marketing? And maybe there's a brand they're like, they do it so well. Like they just kind of let the creators do their thing.
SPEAKER_00I mean, a lot of brands definitely like do it well. Obviously, there's gonna be, you know, categories of brands that that have to like have some sort of kind of regulations. Like, you know, there's a lot of regulations around alcohol brands or like some of the the skincare products, like they have to make sure that creators aren't making claims about things. So, you know, that of what uh what the product may do. So there always is gonna be like a world in which a brand needs to provide some sort of of guidelines for for some categories, but I'd say like the data doesn't lie, right? And so the second brands see like how much product creators are moving and we're able to kind of get them bought in, a lot of them do usually like loosen the reins and kind of trust us that that it's working. And and we work with thousands of brands, so we definitely have like the anecdotes and and proof there.
SPEAKER_01When we've been talking, I'm I am mainly picturing fashion and beauty products. Yeah. I know that you got my is across like interiors and all of these other categories. Do you work with like technology companies and that sort of thing? And do you see it kind of integrating that way as well?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so our, you know, we started in beauty as as I said, kind of at the beginning and then really evolved into more like fashion, lifestyle, home decor.
I think our next kind of evolution and where we're starting to push and explore is hospitality, hotel groups, travel, events and experiences. So I do think naturally like tech will will maybe come with that, but I that's a little bit further down the line. We do work with, you know, like Melissa Wood Health and Megan Roop, some like fitness creators who are, you know, wanting to incentivize people to promote their their platform. So kind of on the subscription or app download, you know, as long as there's a checkout page, we we can track that. So in in some ways, yes, but I'd say like our focus for growth right now is more the hospitality, travel events, experiences space.
SPEAKER_01Oh, if I got an opportunity to go on a trip, I'd be like, I'm dropping everything.
SPEAKER_00Right. Yeah, exactly. I know. So coming soon, we are piloting with some fantastic franchises in the hotel space and in the luxury and premium hotel space. So I'm I'm personally very bullish and excited about that expansion.
SPEAKER_01I know I'm gonna start tagging some of like hotels now when I travel. I feel like I could talk to you about this for like hours. I unfortunately can also yep for hours. I find this so so interesting. So, in a lot of conversations, especially I think like last fall, maybe it was, I feel like everyone I was talking
to was like, you have to get on Shop My. Or I would be at an early stage and someone was like, Oh, well, everything changed when I got on ShopMai. And I was like, Are you making this much money from affiliates? Like, what are what am I missing? And now I've kind of seen it on my way here. I was in an Uber and I got a gifting request. And I was like, oh my God. What do you think has made? Obviously, I'm a little bit biased. You're biased, you work there. What has made this just like stick? And like all the brands want to be on it, creators want to be on it. I get so many messages about like a referral to get on. Like, what do you think you guys understood about the creator economy that maybe other people just weren't?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I think again, it was really hard to articulate your value as a creator before Shop My provided creators and brands the data into what's working. Like nobody wants a partnership to fail, right? Like creators want to work with brands that they love consistently, but brands want to work with creators that love them. And so kind of being able to show people that I feel like helped us scale really quickly. And then ultimately the platforms really elevated. I think it being platform agnostic, where you know, we were meeting creators where they were, not asking them to build another social media profile or build a presence on something else. It was just like, hey, you're already doing this. Let us help you make more of that helped as well. Where oftentimes, like, unless you were savvy enough to know what go.shop my is, you don't really know that ShopMai is involved in the process because that affiliate link is taking you directly from someone's Instagram story to the brand's website or from someone's substack to the brand's website. And so it's just facilitating like our belief was the quicker you get someone to like that point of checkout, the higher conversions were going to be. So our goal was to reduce like all barriers for that. I think additionally, the word authenticity gets thrown around so much. So I sometimes like cringe it even coming out of my mouth. But before there weren't platforms that allowed creators to recommend anything, even if it wasn't commissionable. And so you had creators that would be totally willing to hype a brand or support a brand that, you know, in a reel or video, they would tag everything, like maybe but the sweater. And you would see comments like, well, why don't you link the sweater? And to creators say, because it's not not linkable. And so it felt like kind of like gatekeepy or salesy in a way, where like you could only recommend something if you were earning from it. And I think like it's super small, but I really believe that that's what allowed us to work with a lot of these experts and people of influence who were maybe, you know, like former buyers or editors or stylists or dermatologists who just like needed an easy way to get their recommendations out there and needed to be able to recommend whatever they wanted. And that's how a lot of our brand side has grown too, because we're able to go to brands that maybe think they're too small to have an affiliate program or hadn't had one set up yet, saying, like, wow, look at these 50 tastemakers that are recommending your brand. And imagine if you incentivize them how you could grow. And so I think we've had the fortune of having an amazing flywheel between the the sides of the business. And now we've introduced consumers. So that's even just gonna grow further. But um, that was sorry, like a super long-winded thing because I I don't think it's just one thing, but I think it's a lot of small things combined that you know really made people fall in love with what we were building. And it's so adaptable.
SPEAKER_01I think ShopMind's always launching something new to meet the needs. And I kind of feel like if I had a really specific problem and like made it known, you guys would be like, We're on it. Like I don't have something top of mind.
SPEAKER_00But yeah, I think, you know, Harry, who I always say is he's our CEO, but also like our CTO, he built the entire product. And I think having, you know, your founders be very product focused is very unique, right? Like, you know, other platforms that are out there, people maybe had like a lot of affiliate background, or you know, we're we're creators and so we're building it from that point of view, and and that's amazing, and there's space for it all. But I've always felt very fortunate that the one thing like at our core is that Harry really deeply cares about building the best product possible. That's why we like don't put creators on exclusivity contracts or anything like that, because he always says, like, if they can earn more elsewhere or something's better offering elsewhere, we need to improve the product. And like that's our core mindset. And I think it really shows.
SPEAKER_01The platform's really easy to use, and I think it's tech enabled in a way where it doesn't feel clunky or like a weird futuristic thing. I'm like, you're forcing me to learn a new skill set to use this. CUI is super simple.
SPEAKER_00Yeah, like you know, we obviously work with creators of all ages, and I always love the older creators that I have calls with. They're like, I can't even operate my cell phone. I'm like, I promise you, like you can operate this. It's really easy. I think like we just try to make it as straightforward as possible.
SPEAKER_01I'm curious. I'm sure there's like an overall, this is the top trending item of the week that was bought, reviewed. Is there an item out there or brand that you're like, they have just sold millions of this product on here?
SPEAKER_00I don't know if I'm allowed to tell you. Oh, okay. That's okay. Like, like, yes, it's it's always shocking to me. We do release like on our Instagram and certain things will release like top trending products, but I don't want to make I want to make sure I don't reveal anything that I'm not supposed to data-wise. We'll go to Instagram to find out. I should have checked with our marketing team on that one. No, it's fine.
SPEAKER_01Okay, I have some questions that I gathered from the audience as well. Okay. This one's kind of funny because I've done this before. Does it hurt my status slash can brands see if I purchase through my own link?
SPEAKER_00So this it's it's kind of a nuanced answer. Depends on how the brand is integrated, uh like through what network, kind of what their tracking parameters are. Some brands definitely will cancel self-orders, and some are fine with it. So it's it's really a it depends. Interesting.
SPEAKER_01I've definitely done it. Yeah, I'm insane. Okay.
I was hearing a lot about trendsetter tier, and I think it's really something people are working towards. Like, and they're being told, like, once I hit it, here comes the gifting, here come the opportunities. So on one side, someone said they are about to hit it, they're at like 68 points. What can they do to push themselves over the edge?
SPEAKER_00Oh, I love this question. I could nerd out on this one all day. So it is a point-based system. Most of the points come from monthly order volume, monthly traffic, and then you'll see like your profile completion. So if you go in your account settings and actually click on each thing, it will tell you, you know, eight out of 10 points and exactly what you can do in order to get points. So someone who's really close, I'm like, do you have a bio? Are your socials connected? That can be, you know, kind of more like hacky point boosters, but really at the end of the day, like the more consistent you are in sharing links, the better. So I always say quick links are gonna convert the best. As we were talking earlier, that philosophy, the quicker you get your audience to that point of purchase, the higher the conversion is gonna be. So wherever you can share those direct product links to the specific item, whether it is like in your Instagram story or a broadcast channel or in, you know, your Substack or wherever you're, you know, communicating with your audience, that's gonna get you that traffic and order volume quicker. Collections are amazing when you've got, you know, six, seven items you want to recommend, but there is a natural drop-off, right? Because people might browse and if they don't end up clicking on any of the items, you're not opening up, you know, yourselves for that tracking window for the earnings. So really like the more quick links you share is I don't want to say like fast track to trendsetter, but it's definitely gonna like accelerate you towards trendsetter.
SPEAKER_01It's interesting because I I think it was the beginning of the year, was put into the like shop my accelerator programs. Love it. Yeah, it's like, oh, this is a new experiment of ours. Yeah. And then I actually did hit trendsetter because I was like motivated. So I can't do something every day. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Well, that that was our goal, you know. Like we are trying to figure out our role and like how do we educate people to become sellers in a way, you know, because it is still in the grand scheme of things, a somewhat new idea. And so reinforcing that consistency is something that we we want to do and showing people that hey, like if you do share links consistently, you can hit that trendsetter tier and hope it's it's sticky and and you kind of learn that behavior. So I'm glad to hear it worked.
SPEAKER_01No, it was it was fun. I was like, this is so interesting that they're doing this, like the education. components really smart. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00I guess we should maybe share like what that was. So we use the the we always say like we should use our features ourselves, right? And so we use the opportunities feature to for new creators that show potential, offer them, you know, like a small bonus if they share, I I think it was what, third like 30 links in 30 days. I I don't know the exact specifics of it, but we try to keep it easy and light. But again, just to show the behavior of of consistent linking.
SPEAKER_01And I think it was too like I might get the exact number wrong like a $250 bonus if you complete it. I was like, that's interesting too that there's a real money component behind it. Even if no one buys anything, like just completing it, you're getting that cash incentive. Yeah. So very smart. Okay, the other side of this question around trendsetter was that they reached the point but they haven't been getting gifting requests. Is there something that they should do to like increase visibility or increase that desire for brands to want to work with them?
SPEAKER_00Yeah. I think you know social mentions too can really help. Every brand kind of however human thinks differently every brand thinks differently. So some might pay more attention to content, some might pay more attention to like the raw data and and stats. So I think like organically tagging and mentioning definitely helps as
well. I have some speed round questions for you.
SPEAKER_01What is the most overrated creator metric followers? This is going to be not speed round. Do you think everyone's talking about engagement now is there another metric potentially going to replace engagement?
SPEAKER_00I think engagement will again always matter for brands in terms of like their awareness campaigns, but I I do think the order volume you're driving is is the metric brands care about the most.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_00Which has incentivized a lot of creators to get on ShopMai as well because if they're teams or they are talking to a brand about a long-term partnership and they have no click data or they have no order conversion data to share with the brand, they're kind of like stuck. Yeah. And so you know creators need access to that. And so that's also been helpful for ShopMai's growth. What is the most underrated platform for creators? I have been okay so it's not really a platform but it's a feature on a platform but astonished that creators are not leaning more into Instagram's ability for you to now tag a product in your post or your reel. Like we've seen the rise of so many link DM or like many chat platforms. I'm sure you've seen it where someone's like comment link on my reel and I'll DM you all the links which is great converts really well. I love that but now you can literally just the same way you if you like posted something with me, you could tag me. You can also tag your dress or your shoes or your shirt. And I think that's going to be just absolutely game changing for the amount of sales that a creator can drive because it's right there. And so I haven't seen the feature adopted as quickly as I thought I thought people were going to like totally freak out. So I I think they will once the light bulb goes off but I think it's super underrated that Instagram is now allowing product recommendations in feed. And then you can see metrics of people buying can you get the same it's the yes shop my affiliate links. It's the same as you put your own link. Yeah it's affiliate links. So the same as if you popped it in your Instagram story you can now put it in a reel or a post. Yeah I don't think I knew that either.
SPEAKER_01Okay well it's super underrated because I've seen before I've like tag the product and it's just like the brand's pop up shop page. I didn't think I could put my own link. Now you can interesting I'm like gonna go do that. Yeah play around with it. I can send you a video on how to do it.
SPEAKER_00It's really easy what is one creator trend do you think is fading? Chasing virality I think there was always this desire to to go viral and I think people now know that that actually can hurt you because then you end up diluting your audience that's meaningful like I always say everyone that's following you should be able to articulate why they're following you or why they followed you in the first place. And if they can't like you don't really want them because that's not people that are meaningfully engaging with you.
SPEAKER_01I also find once your video goes over a certain amount of views, say like a hundred K, you're getting the haters. Yeah. Or just like spam. Yeah like you're just getting people who aren't who you want. Yeah.
SPEAKER_00What is something you think creators should stop doing immediately like working with a a brand because there's a check there like if you wouldn't wear or use the brand if they weren't paying you, don't promote them just because they're paying you.
SPEAKER_01And I've I'm like proud of some creators like even someone I had on she'll be really transparent of like I just got offered like $20,000 to promote GLP ones and like that's not who I am.
SPEAKER_00Yeah I mean it can be hard you know but I think like that's where I became so passionate about affiliate because I think before creators had less of a choice right because it's like okay they were getting that brand deal and then they didn't know the next time they would get a brand deal or how much it would be there was like such variability where they can build a very consistent repeatable revenue stream with affiliate. And so I think that income has allowed creators to be more authentic and has given them the ability to say no for things that aren't aligned.
SPEAKER_01But I think the consistency of the money is probably the most difficult part of this space. Yeah. Okay these are some ones I asked often do you have a fashion hot take?
SPEAKER_00I think like most trends people don't actually like the trend the trend is just like really well funded like capris being one of them to me like I don't think the majority of people look in the mirror trying on capris and be like this is the best fit for my body or looks good on me but it's very well funded. I don't know I just yeah like most trends sometimes I'm like do we actually like this or are we just seeing it everywhere?
SPEAKER_01Fair I've definitely done that before I'm like I didn't like this. What is a fashion industry misconception? Or it could be like creator.
SPEAKER_00You're more in the like creator space yeah that fits better for you I think that I'll go like more fashion industry. I think that like you have to spend a ton of money in order to to look good or you know that like only like things of quality or you can find amazing quality pieces whether it's like secondhand or resale but yeah I think you know like expensive doesn't equal taste or style or something great. And so I think you know more people should get creative with with where they're buying and how they're buying. What is a resource recommendation you could recommend to people I've always been like a big believer in the quote like you are the five people that you surround yourself with. So I think for me the best resource career wise or in my life has been surrounding myself with people that I think have like really clear and strong judgment because that that helps me have the same. Does ShopMai have any upcoming announcements that you can share? So I'm sure you've heard of noir we didn't get into to noir quite a bit but just a little bit about it it's our kind of bet in the opposite way of of all the AI agents that we're seeing built for shopping. So it's you know a personalized recommendation that a shopper it's invite only so you know once you hit certain tiers of our our shopper platform can text in and we of course use AI to match the right person but then it's that person that finds the right product. So the shopper can write in telling you know the the curator what they're looking for and they'll receive that personalized recommendation back. And so we're building a lot more features for personalization and and shopping I kind of already said like the events and experiences and then of course a few I can't talk about yet but as we kind of the theme of our conversation is ShopMai's always innovating. And I feel like that's just like there's a fire under us where we've been so excited about you know our recent valuation and everything. So we're we're just in build mode.
SPEAKER_01I did want to bring that up because how could we not talk about the unicorn status that Shopmai gives it was last year yeah October 1.5 billion evaluation how did that change the company internally and externally of the perception of Shopmai?
SPEAKER_00Yeah I think we've been profitable since 2024. We're driving like over 200 million dollars of sales like to across our brand partners so I think you know for us internally it just validated everything we already knew that we were like building the future of commerce but it's obviously nice to have the market validate that as well. I'd say internally for our team we just opened an incredible headquarters here in New York and so you know a lot of the the fundraising and valuation went to that. So for us internally we you know we've been remote the whole time yeah and so this is the first time that we feel like we're planting roots like we really treat it as our home away from home like a place for us to share our taste and so that's been really exciting to have that, you know, we're betting on humans so we wanted to bring our humans together as well and it's been amazing the reaction to it but also just to have that that space for collaboration and to say like we're you know we're here for good.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. And I think it was kind of like a stamp of approval that creators needed too to see oh the money going into companies funding us, helping us that we're helping make money is worth this much.
SPEAKER_00Like this isn't going anywhere. For sure. And I think you know alongside creators is entrepreneurs we had a lot of creators also invest in in that round which meant a lot to us as well because they're able to you know they're the ones using it every day and same with you know some of our brand founders and so it really helps our feedback loop to just improve everything when the people using it are are also invested in its success. I saw that it was really really cool.
SPEAKER_01I think it was like Pia Mance recently Sophia Ritchie did that happen again after that first round or has it been like one initial round of creators yeah I think every every time we do a raise we always have reserved you know some capacity for strategics.
SPEAKER_00So we've done it a couple times through our raises but I say it would say with our series B, it was definitely the the most impactful yeah very cool at the beginning and kind of you mentioned for just now and then at the beginning creators as entrepreneurs I've been talking to people how we think that everyone's going to be their own business.
SPEAKER_01Yeah it's pretty easy to make an LLC. It sounds kind of complicated it's really not you can go do it in like a day.
SPEAKER_00Yeah what do you see for the future of the creator economy maybe like five, 10 years from now yeah I think I mean that we've already as you just mentioned have seen like the democratization of the creator economy like you don't have to be an entertainer to participate. You can actually just like make a career now out of having amazing taste. So I think we'll just continue to see folks that four or five years ago would say like I'd never share product recommendations really lean in because you can make a lot of money from it and it can can be your career. So I think we'll just start to see more people participate.
SPEAKER_01And so encouraging for people who aren't doing it yet or who want to or maybe you're not making a ton of money and it's like a side thing. Like don't stop.
SPEAKER_00Don't stop yeah don't stop for sure there's again I I I I feel like a broken record and just being like you know we're we're just gonna lean into this I idea of of humans and and relationships and connection and I think that's what makes us so incredible is we all are so unique. And so that's the beauty not everyone's sharing the same thing. They're finding different brands they're finding things that fit them and so I think you know you're when it becomes this world in which you know you can buy from your friends and and it becomes like really interwoven into our our conversations. I'm personally really excited about that because it will it'll keep the human creativity and like artistic spark alive.
SPEAKER_01I appreciate the focus consistently on humans as AI dominates so much of our conversations now.
SPEAKER_00I know it's you know it's been an amazing tool you know for certain things but it also can be exhausting a little bit as well so it's been nice that for us as well just in the day to day that you know we do implement it. It helps our speed it helps with things but that humans are are at the center of everything we do. It's for me very motivating.
SPEAKER_01What a great note to end on thank you so much for coming on.
SPEAKER_00Thank you for having me. Where can everyone find you well I'm on mostly Instagram my oh this is gonna like date me as such a millennial but when I created my Instagram the song like A Babe was really popular.
SPEAKER_01So my Instagram handles hey K Ray and of course that's shop my yes I'll link your shop my for sure I'm sure you have some good links there. Well thank you so much thank you I like want to have you back on because so interesting thank you so much for having me